We gotta talk about how Kendall is slowly becoming Logan. We gotta talk about how Roman cried like a lost boy (and made me cry like a boy too), we gotta talk about Shiv being redhead while everyone else isn’t We gotta talk about Connor being interested in politics from a very young age
Despite Shiv being the only redhead in the fam I actually feel like she's the only one who realistically looks like she could be Logan's child, I think it's in the eyes and shape of the face.
@@mystriddlery she simply doesn’t know better. I’m aware that alone sounds dumb, but in a place where she was constantly thrown under the bus for being a woman what seemed the most reasonable was to stay and prove everybody wrong. Besides, leaving wouldn’t be the best economic move either. Lastly, all of them are victims no matter what. All of them could have left at any point in time. But everyone’s much too broken, they try to always come on top but are completely failing to see how money can actually do good. The problem is how would they know if the people they surround themselves and what they have always known was inherently wrong? Kendall, Roman and Siobhan should have try and do what Connor did. But we all know how Connor is. It certainly wouldn’t have helped the company either, why did all of the kids left knowing they had a shot at being as good as their dad (or that’s what the public thinks, even when everybody knows how much of an ass Logan is). What is it that Logan hides that made their own kids leave. American people love a family man, or the idea of one. Logan simply would have lacked the support of a big part of the public that watches their trash. Even the majority too, just maybe.
I don't actually think she was a victim as much as Kendall and Roman. She was youngest and an only girl and youngest children are usually showered with attention. She's also the most entitled of the three which means she was spoiled, and Marcia calls her spoiled and everyone mentioned few times she was a favorite. She was maybe dismissed for the top job as a woman, but abused.... I really don't think so. Logan calls his sons derogatory names and her he calls Pinky. So yeah, she was his pet.
Brian Cox has always asserted that Shiv was his favorite. But, in that extremely male world and as the only female, her decisions (while not managed well), do make a certain amount of sense. Sarah Snook has the hardest role and she is so consistently brilliant that it's just a pleasure to watch her. Guarded, yet totally vulnerable - she absolutely nails it.
Thank you! I find it interesting how easy people pile on Shiv, and extoll the terribleness of the males, as just 'brilliance' when in fact, she has to play both vulnerable, and emotionally 'CARING' not just emotional because she is hurt personally, which is all we see of the rest of the males around her. She is the most intelligent, and has friends from the past, which are not played out, but shown in ways to cut the time down. The boys? Not so much. She has ZERO female role models, because Logan made sure that wasn't available to her. People can't see, and in a world that is extolling the virtues of 'no virtue' as in 'GREED' where that gets Kendall a round of applause in a 'church service'. Shiv asks about how her father really was, example, her asking Karl and Frank: "What was he really like?" What other sibling ever even cared, except when Ken asks Frank, but for Kendall...what did Frank think Logan thought about KEN.
Is Logan capable of having a favorite for more than a few moments? I think he gets that Shiv is most like himself and she's the one he probably dislikes the least.
If Connor's eulogy was "formally inventive" compared to his sibling's speeches, I really would have loved to see it. What was it? A dialogue between his 12 year old self and the casket? Then halfway through Willa - realising he is loosing the crowd - improvised an impression of his mom being dragged into a mental institution?
Hello. I’m here as a fellow human to acknowledge that Logan has, as we know, passed on. Logan was a man. Also, Logan was the CEO of the Waystar company for 50 years. And when a man dies, it is sad. All of us will die one day. In this case, it is Logan who has done so. Logan was alive for 81 years. But no more. Now he is dead. Logan’s wife was Marcia. They were married for an undisclosed amount of years. Now she is sad.
shes always ALWAYS the first suggested to be thrown under the bus, or the last to be thought of, an afterthought. I can see why Shiv gravitates towards keeping her options open at all times cos there is never a reward for her doing the right thing
Thank you!! Finally, someone sees it. I've been binge-watching the seasons again looking for Easter eggs, but what struck me is how rarely she's the 1st to break rank. Almost always she gets screwed over 1st. The few rare times when she's 1st came from her reading a situation/dynamic correctly.
@@usagi_tNo, it is confirmed that Shiv is the youngest child on the family and Roman is the youngest boy. It's just because Roman is mostly too chill and more laidback while Shiv is always being serious since she used to work at politic before
Looking back on the show... Logan, Kendall, and Roman have made several comments about how smart and competent she is. We later learned that Shiv never asked to work for their family company because she thought she would be denied. That shocked Logan because she never even asked him. Yes, she would be at a disadvantage , but with changing of the times and Logan promoting women in his own organization to high places of power, I can see a future where she was chosen to take over. In terms of experience, Shiv doesn't have more than the brothers. This is highlighted multiple times in the show. Even with Roman is told that he doesn't have the skills needed, he goes into management training and comes out more competent. This is recognized for the old timers and Logan. When Shiv is brought in, Logan offered her this as well since she never held a high position in the company. She didn't go through this because she thought it was beneath her. She ran into the same wall Kendall did in realizing that Logan never wanted to give up the mantle and hand the baton to someone else.
@@annkey4091 Tom was a tool that just wanted to please, which is easy to use. Shiv wanted top seat and didnt have any drive because she just expects it to be handed to her with no demonstration of her value. Harder to use.
@@annkey4091 Well, I get that Tom at the minimum level of experience required for the positions he's held. He also seems to know how to run part of the organization. People don't say that he's bad at his job or he doesn't know what he's doing. They just say that the only reason he got the positions he did are because of who he's dating/married to...which is true.
@@dragonhero14 Isn't being married to the right person sometimes enough? Truth is that Tom has volunteered to take a hit and has been taking hits since he married into the family, I guess that there are material tradeoffs.
@@annkey4091 I agree. That was the part of the point I was making. Tom is capable of doing the job. But I think that it's not what he wants. Especially seeing him in the episodes after Logan's death. He's managing the job, but is also suffering. Part of this is due to the siblings fighting, but a lot also has to due with the big shoes Logan left. He's had to step up significantly to keep day to day operations running as expected. I would be shocked if he either becomes the CEO, or just decides to leave it all behind him and walk away. Remember, he offered that to Shiv in Season 1.
I don't agree with the last part where you said that Rome and Ken are trained to work together for a common goal, but Shiv isn't. Because ken and rome are only pretending to work together, while actively on the side trying to cut each other out, both of them are planning to takeover, even if it takes hurting the other one. Both ken and rome are working for their best interest even if it meant hurting the other siblings. And that's exactly what Shiv is doing too, they're all the same, Ken and Rome are not better in any way.
@@miseendriste6337 No, its not. Rome actually thinks its about the family, even though he dropped the ball. Ken wants it all for himself and almost has the competency to achieve it, Shive wants it all but has none of the competency to achieve it. At the end of it she just isnt a likeable person and itll tank her no matter what. She couldve easily bribed Greg last episode for his silence but no she took the weird agro move and killed her chances. Awful instincts compared to Ken/Rome. And no, just because she isnt suited for the job doesnt make it misogyny lol, you probably blame all your shortcomings on misogyny.
@@miseendriste6337 yep Shiv can exhibit the exact same behavior as her brothers and she's maligned for it while her brothers get a pass. Misogyny runs deep in many fandoms.
Yep. And somehow people also miss the very obvious fact that it was Kendall and Rome who betrayed Shiv first, not the other way around, by trying to tank the deal and breaking their promise that them being CEOs was only temporary and they’d be leading PGN together in no time. Shiv simply answered. Coldly and ruthlessly but it was reaction not action. They’re all just as bad and just as disloyal as each other, Roman included. He was only truly loyal to his father.
@@dmaria682 Kendal came forward and was honest with Shiv about his intentions, even left space for her to admit the same and all she did was hug him and call him a good person lol. Trying to pin the hate against her as mysogyny when the show makes her so purposefully hateable (mainly via her treatment of Tom) is stupid and just grasping at straws.
Very interesting take. As a psychology student this makes a lot of sense from a developmental perspective. Her duplicitous nature is a defence mechanism to remain guarded and focused on her ambitions. It speaks to the toxic culture she's been brought up in as well as the societal expectations of women in corporate environments. It's fascinating.
Its not about gender. Even Gerri, Karolina and Rhea - the three biggest female heavyweights on the show, all acknowledge that Shiv is not cut out to be a boss. She avoids training, she avoids tough decisions, she avoids day-to-day decisions and any time she senses pressure she runs to check what "her other options are", which is a running theme throughout the entire series. Notice how every time things got hot for the family, at least ONE person questions Shiv to see if she's working with the other side or is even interested in the play. One of many plot devices the writers use to show you Shiv is the weakest of the 4 siblings.
Her brothers and father have jerked her around since Season 1. Logan’s entire modus operandi is to be unfaithful to everyone, loyal to no one, use anyone and everything, keep all options open and even his children are subject to be cut off. Season 3 was a masterclass. Roman and Kendahl were working to cut Shiv out from top of Season 4 and absolutely since Ep.3 and then have the gall to act betrayed when they realize Shiv figured out early on what they were up to and maneuvered instead of leaving herself exposed when they again pulled the rug out. They were mad Shiv wasn’t they “mule or errand girl” they wanted her to play. some point even Charlie Brown stops believing Lucy when she swears she wont yank the football. Of all the Roys, I think Shiv is most like Logan.
You nailed it. I keep having so many arguments about this so it's great to see someone else pointing out what should be so clear to everyone else. The writers couldn't have made it any clearer without actually coming out and saying it
She would’ve been a great CEO if only she fucking learned anything at all about that company. She was always an afterthought because she never put the work in. They say several times how she’s the most unprepared. Because she purposely stayed away from the business she never learned the ropes like Kendall and Roman did. Logan even gave her a clear path on what she had to do and she didn’t like it because it was too long for her. That’s when Logan realised she wasn’t a good fit either, when she wasn’t willing to do her due time with all the grown ups - Frank, Gerri, himself, etc, to learn the business. I think this is what annoys me the most about this character and why she’s my least favorite. They are all terrible people. But the other two were at least involved in the company somewhat. Shiv just comes outta nowhere and expects to be given the keys to the kingdom immediately. In a world full of entitled people, she manages to outdo everyone.
@@Emy-fv5ny Yeah, Kendall has the desire (and more experience than his siblings) but lacks that cutting edge. Trying to be a killer is not the same as being one. Roman has the instincts but has no spine or discipline. Shiv has the strategy but none of the experience where necessary. Rhea summed it up neatly back in s2. Ken has all the shots but doesn't know when to play them, Roman could actually be good but nowhere near now & Shiv thinks she's smarter than she is (similar to Cersei Lannister in ASOIAF).
@@SebisajiminstanExactly, Shiv isn't necessarily extra detestable for wanting something she didn't earn. She's extra detestable because she *feels* entitled to something she didn't put the work in for, which is far worse. Logan laid out a clear plan for her to be prepared and she rejected it (even if it wasn't real, going thru it would've made her more credible). Then she has the gall to feel demeaned when no one respects her. It's bad to be guilty yet it's worse to thereafter insist on innocence which is what Shiv does in the business and with her brothers and especially with Tom when he calls her out.
@@SweetLotusDreams Which is pretty much fitting to her nature as she mostly likes to backstab everyone for her advantage. Also, Tom gave her Scorpion badge is a good gift to show how she is just like Scorpion which likes to sting its opponent.
@@wamiqmohammad466 I know but she only being called Siobhan whenever shits going real. Except when she has to present herself as Director of Operational (even though she's never work at the company) in Season 3 if I'm not wrong when she deliberated a speech until Kendall interrupted her with "Rape Me" song by Nirvana.
Roman is the most loyal to the family… not the country but the family. Kendall will do anything to take the company for himself… shiv just isn’t loyal to anything
Why is the right is seen in the show as the second coming of Nazi .like somehow the left have the magical stick to save everything and help everyone like .bru what the fuck with political biased and also the left have been shown to be group of privileged bricks through the show so why until season four .Roman is the only good businessman .kit is just addicted mess who have to be addicted to something from power to drugs and acts as spoiled shit that he is if he doesn’t have what he wants .and shiv oh shiv I really think everything that Tom said about her is true .she just don’t have the capacity to love to care or even know what the fuck to do with her life. The show will end and the characters I love the most and sympathies is actually Tom and ginger which are very terrible people
The actress is fantastic!!!! And I liked her character a lot in the beginning. Towards the end I hated her so much more than most characters. And that says a lot considering how pretty much all of them are morally corrupt and detestable.
Shiv wants to keep all her options open at all times. She wants all benefits and no risk. I think she stayed out of the company not to stand out, but to avoid risk. She didn't want fail. If she stayed out, she could tell herself she would do the job better if asked. She leaned on the excuse that she wasn't asked to take the top job. When she was offered the job, she scoffed at the idea she would have to work her way up. That would mean having fully commit, to fully risk, for her prize, and she wouldn't do it. Even in Shiv's old job, she doesn't take risk. She give political advice, she didn't run for office herself. If a candidate failed or didn't listen to her advice she can still blaim the failure on them. Shiv's favorite position is to be the critic on the sidelines, talking about what others should do, but not taking direct action herself.
You're right that Shiv isn't loyal, and your dissection of why is really interesting. However, the boys are just as disloyal as she is. They started out this season supposedly working together as a team. But as soon as they got the chance they put themselves forth as a team of CEOs leaving her out-- which they seem to always do. And both Kendall & Roman believe that they should be CEO on their own. Kendall is making a play for that, Roman tried but he'd already sabotaged his relationship with Geri too much for her to work with him. Also they had a deal with Mattson, which Kendall & Roman are actively trying to blow up- against the desires of their board and Mattson. It's really sad watching their interpersonal relationships. It really seems like the best thing for them would have been for the Mattson deal to go through and for them to have that other company to run together. (And to get really really good mental health help.)
Chiv's dad lied to her many times about her being "the one". Chiv's mom is a master manipulating narcissist who Chiv never binded with as a result. Chiv is a lone wolf.
She's the biggest coward of the show. Technically a bigger coward than Greg or Tom. Rhea even says at one point that Shiv is not as smart as she thinks. Gerri and Karolina if you watch closely never treat her as a much as a heavyweight or acknowledge her as part of the inner circle the way they do with Kendal and Roman. In the end Shiv is a rich brat who wants to be the boss without putting in the dirty work. The first big sign of this is the way the lashes out at Logan anytime he wants to put her into training or management courses, classes etc. Anytime anyone on the show suggests to Shiv that she "learn the ropes" so to speak she gets inpatient and defensive. Why? She wants to be the boss NOW NOW NOW, like a child.
@@iamcase1245Shiv is the definition of Girl Boss, Gaslight and Gatekeeper. Even Marcia told her right in her face that she is a spoiled c*** on her wedding. Tom even has enough with her shits.
Enjoyed that. I think she seemed destined to fail on her side deal with GoJo because it was only ever about cliche buzz words. Logan was right - they are all deeply unserious people. I'm hoping they all fail in one way or another.
I don't think they will end the series with the siblings arguing and clashing. I think they will reconcile at the end because they still love each other little bit
@@muhammadabozyied834 I think the exact opposite, maybe one will take over or maybe no one will but either way I think these people are too far gone in the succession war and loving eachother is no longer gonna happen.
@Louis XVI but you can't agnore that they helped each other building a new company and at the beginning of this season they bought pierce and defeated their father whom they stood together through his funeral and grave
this season started with shiv really being on same team with her brothers and then she found out that kendall is doing deals behind her back without even taking her opinion, she had to go back to being the lone wolf
I'm sorry, when were the brothers loyal to her? Or anyone to anyone? Those two didn't have to go out of their way to join Matteson because they already brokered a deal with each other and sidelined her. Only loyalty she should be displaying is in marriage. That open marriage shit was bad. But other than that, every character has displayed lack of integrity and loyalty in this show. Ffs, she even proved her worth outside her family business, got promised and then used by her dad as a pawn and now her brothers sidelining her. Ofc she would shiv them
Just like Skyler White, Shiv is now getting hated because she ruined the "fun" of patriarchal power fantasy. That's why it's easier for the (male) audience to hate her while siding with Kendall, Rome, Tom and Greg even though they are doing the same thing. I mean, the one who made this video is also a guy.
@@nont18411 but fundamentally she is a bad person and I think the reason she is disliked more than Roman or Kendall is because of the other side we see to her when it comes to Tom. She’s a toxic person in business and outside of it, whereas Roman’s driving force throughout the show was having at least some family dynamic (hence why he felt apprehensive to betray Logan and to leave Kendall at his darkest moments). Kendall is a lot less likeable this season as he seems to have become just a mini Logan, but in previous seasons the viewer felt his struggle between morals and power, even somewhat in this season. Kendall was the antihero of sorts, until Logan died. Shiv however, doesn’t have these redeeming qualities at all, the only thing she has going for her is having at least some moral views on democracy and progression, but this is undermined by the fact that she just goes for whichever option benefits her the most. Skyler was actually a good person, put in an extremely difficult circumstance, and made bad choices because of it. In BB, I think the viewer is less inclined to like Skyler because Walt is the main focus of the series (I always find that no matter how bad a protagonist is in a series I always feel that maybe they can be redeemed, and hold onto that until the end, sadly I don’t think I could say Walt really redeemed himself, even though he tried). Skyler seems to always be holding Walt back, even though she’s in the right, but because she isn’t as well established as a character as Walt is, and because she does stuff with Ted before she even knew about the meth, it’s much harder for the viewer to be rooting for her. Ultimately it has nothing to do with the patriarchy, there are plenty of shows where a woman is the protagonist and I come to hate some of the male side characters. I’m sure that many of us, myself included, have found ourselves liking Shiv at points in the show, more so than any other character, but then she does something absolutely horrible and I hate her again. That’s what makes a show like this so good! I’ve found that with all of the characters (except maybe Logan he’s always been pretty unlikeable).
@@F1nn1810 Kendall is a drug addict, absent father and a controlling, abusive ex-husband to Ava. Roman is an almost-Joker character who humilliates and abuses others using his wealth and power - hence the tore check in a poor kid's face and the sexual harrassment of Gerri. Therefore, they are toxic in business and outside just as Shiv is - why is her abuse of the petty parasite social climber husband unforgivable but Kendall's and Roman's aren't even mentioned? Why is she judged more harshly by the spectators? I spent all 4 seasons hating and loving the siblings equally, and I can't see how could it be otherwise.
@@CavalliAna firstly, I think being a drug addict doesn’t make you an inherently bad person- it just makes you a troubled individual. Sure, the two can go hand in hand, but I think ultimately Kendall’s drug abuse in earlier seasons stems from his deep dissatisfaction with his life; a fractured relationship with his father and his siblings, and ultimately his disconnect from his ex wife and daughter. His attempts to be a better father in earlier seasons fall flat because of his drug addiction, Rava doesn’t think that he’s stable enough to get back with her or be a good father, which is true, but it doesn’t make him evil, it just highlights that he’s a deeply flawed individual that doesn’t know how to cope with his emotions. I think there’s a side to Kendall, up to the end of season 3, that is relatable and we are rooting for him to come out on top then due to his personal struggles building up to that season 3 climax. I agree with you that Roman is quite frankly a horrible person, and his actions are completely irredeemable, especially nearing the end of the show, but I would like to point out that Gerry and Roman’s weird sexual relationship wasn’t just sexual harassment from Roman, it definitely went both ways for a while until Roman pushed it too far. He is an incredibly odd character, and it’s not very clear who or what he is throughout the show; sometimes he’s a caring sibling/son who just wants a loving relationship with those around him, and other times he’s a complete irredeemable monster, doing things that give the show comic relief, but are just frankly awful. Shiv is much more like Roman in that sense throughout the series; at times, she was my favourite character, showing the highest moral compass, drive and care, especially towards Kendall, out of anyone. But this is all completely undermined when you realise that she *always* has an agenda of her own and is planning on double crossing at some point. She only wants what’s best for her even if it means splitting apart the family time after time. And I don’t believe that any of the siblings deserved the company at the end, especially after Ken’s breakdown, but she only took that from Kendall out of the jealousy we’ve seen throughout. It’s like I said before, there are times when Shiv is the most likeable character out of all of them, but it’s very hard to keep liking her when all she does is betray, lie and cheat when it’s of even the slightest convenience to her, and in my opinion, that’s what makes her the least likeable. Kendall is broken, immature and unable to deal with his emotions in a healthy way. Roman is sick and twisted but ultimately what the show needed for comic relief; you never like him per say but he is downright hilarious. Shiv is broken by being looked down upon for being a woman, and has the highest moral compass, but what are morals when it’s easier just to not stick by them whenever it’s easiest, or most convenient? Shiv’s combination of Kendall’s worst aspects with her natural distrust of everyone around her and tendency to betray makes her the least likeable out of the 3 siblings.
I feel like Shiv set up Mencken & Matsson to cut out the family in episode 9. Either Ken somehow gets it via Mencken picking (questionable after last night’s post-funeral scene), or Tom gets it (questionable too), or someone completely outside of the main characters. We’ll see
Agreed. Mencken will veto Shiv and Mattsson will veto Ken and Rome and an outsider will get it. Although it really feels like Kendall is gonna get it right this time. The underlined "Kendall LOGAN Roy" in the episode 4 seemed very meaningful.
@@BbGun-lw5vi On the peace of paper that Logan wrote saying he wanted Kendall to succed he included his middle name "Logan". Edit: Just realised that was not the last episode, but episode 4. Really felt more recent for some reason.
There's something about the way you make your videos essays that make me wish I too had a youtube channel so that we can discuss opinions about the characters you portray. I was a bit freaked out you released a video just the day after the airing, so I don't know if you watched ep. 9 but your video made me watch it earlier than planned ;) I'm really glad Shiv is being given so much introspective because she has typically been so ill-spoken about over the past seasons and I felt she deserved much better (also, I completely relate to her). Is it just me or is this final season really giving it all for Shiv, Tom and Roman? (Culkin is absolutely incredible this last season) it's like the underdogs (woof) are finally given a glance of the spotlight! Also, something unprecedented in the previous season, that I would love your take on, is the siblings as a whole: it's so rare to see grown up siblings spending so much time together, and whenever the three of them are on screen, it's such a breath of fresh air! As usual, congrats! huge fan. Your videos are the ones I always look up for the most.
Its also key to mention that with Shiv around the swede she has no problem playing the attack dog, she is Mattson's Hugo as she is towards Tom. She's been an errand girl this entire season just to get a seat at the table. More so in this episode when she was in the trio conversation between Menken & Mattson, she's willing to take whatever is offered (CEO) from those she deems higher than her or at her level, to say the least Frank or even Carl, but never Tom. Tom's the punching bag that gets the release she cant give her brothers/Logan.
You nail every analysis about the Succession characters, excellent work! I really look forward to your Succ videos, all of them are such incredibly well crafter characters.
Shiv is most definitely my most hated character which I hate cause I’m a woman. I was just always so disgusted with how she treats Tom and burns every one of her bridges because they are always transactional from the start. As someone with parental trauma I found solice in beautiful stable friendships. I just wish Shiv and Rome had healthy and loving friends that could help them but they thought they were too hot ish to be friends with anyone. Both Shiv and Rome play that youngest, underserved, bratty role well. At least Ken had Stewy
The closest friend that Shiv have is either her lawyer friend in Season 3 whom later getting hired by Kendall but then she quits because Kendall is being petty and childish and also girl Sandi. But, girl Sandi is mostly busy taking care of her sick dad and she's basically the opposite side of Shiv, being polite, calm, professional and also still respect her dad, even she feels bad to leave him in any seconds. The closest person that Roman can befriend is either the guy on Brighstar's management training, the Aljerbanian guy and also Jared Mecken. He also succesfully convinced his siblings to pick Mecken as the new president only for Mecken to ignore him at Logan's house. There is a clue that Roman might have a crush to Mecken but Mecken is married as you see his wife and kid on his victory speech. Connor also has a friend who is Maxim Pierce who is also weird and wacky like him and still loyal to him until season finale. Shiv and Roman are too unstable, they both can't even befriend at least one people genuinely.
Tom I felt was doing something extremely Machiavellian during the funeral. He was working and plotting while others were mourning. Seems like a full circle moment for him but hey I could be wrong.
I have been wondering about Tom since he signed his prenup even though his Mother told him that the arrangement was "barbaric." Does the Logistics folder that Tom asked Gregg to destroy have any importance? Guess we will find out!
i dont think Tom wants to really come to terms with Logans death because he put all his eggs in logans casket, er basket. I think Shivs pregnancy is toms only way now and its a damn shame he said what he said to shiv ina cruel moment because i dont think she wil ever be able to move past that with tom.
I really like your channel and analysis - one point that you bring up that I hadn’t considered is just how much Conner and Roman equally are not interested in being competitive in the same way as Kendall and Shiv- that ‘s an interesting dynamic - I do want to point out that Kendall cut out Shiv in everything once him and Roman were granted temp CEO status - however Roman did make sincere effort to include Shiv.
I remember in season 1 early on thinking "okay all the siblings are screwed up dark broken people but shiv seems the most balanced and stable one.....and with a husband as nice and friendly as Tom(lol....still first few episodes in guys....i know...) how could she turn out as bad as her siblings...right? Wow that opinion changed quickly.....and by season 2 we all realize while highly intelligent and generally rational...the lying, the manipulation....the instant disregard and disrespect that comes out as soon as someone isn't going along with her agenda.....the cheating....the way she says i love you too to tom...knowing she cqn barely look him in the eye when saying it.... Such a well written dark female character
I always thought Rome was the youngest, whic makes it much more interesting and difficult for Shiv because that means she’s being skipped just for being a woman.
I also for the longest time just assumed that Roman was the youngest because he acts most like the stereotypical youngest sibling, but I’m pretty sure it’s been confirmed that shiv is the youngest child.
Also, Shiv is somehow taller than Roman since they were kids if you look at the opening until adulthood. Shiv is mostly act mature than Roman most of the time.
Shiv thought she is very smart but wasn't Made threats that had no real substance behind them You can actually see which of the characters are actually smart by the way they treated Gregg Kendall, Tom and even Logan knew the subtle tiny power gregg possessed and they made deals with him. Which shiv never does. If you want to be a big man keep the little ones happy.
I feel like there are two fundamemtal differences between Kendall and Shiv. One, Kendall is more competent with the business because of his experience and because he's had to go toe to toe with Logan in a way no one else has. And the second thing is that they are both disloyal. They will both stab you in the back if it means getting to where they want. However, Shiv does so without any qualms whereas Kendall (with his idea of being a good person) may stop and feel a pang of regret. Even express said regret. But still go ahead and stab you in the back anyways!
Takes a lot of empathy for you to understand each of these characters so well. I've been keeping up with your Succession (and The Wire) characters retrospectives for weeks now, you're always so on point. Also, you've made me realize I'm more like Shiv than any character in the show.
When I started watching Succession, I thought Shiv might not be quite as bad as her peers. When I finished the show, I despised her more than almost anybody else lol
I was glad to see her finally accept her place and stop trying to "win" in the end... she might find some real happiness & possibly love now that Tom is in the power position within their relationship. Kendall not winning was definitely a major factor but the phone call where Tom finally stood up for himself in a real sense about not being sure he wanted to be in relationship with her anymore is overlooked in all these breakdowns. He threatened it before & they had that blowout fight where they said the horrific shit about each other... but that phone call with Shiv reaching out to him finally able to be vulnerable for once cause they had already said the worst things that could be said & Tom rebuffing her was a profound moment.
The worst person in any series is the person who wants to be the boss without putting in the work and being on the front lines. Its sad writers tend to make these characters female but the human brain hates people who want to lead without earning their position. In the Sopranos it was Carmela, in Breaking Bad it was Skylar, in Mindhunters it was Wendy and in Succession it was Shiv. Even Greg and Tom for the cowards and snakes that they are at least jumped into the fire.
Agreed. Gerri and Karolina were two of the better people on the series, regardless of being women they're just solid competitors that did what they had to in order to push the company ahead. @@clarabp2613
roman and shiv flip flopped for me. i thought shiv was decent and rome was awful, and by the end i understood roman and couldn’t stand anything shiv did.
Shiv's flaw is thinking she can take the top job without any real experience in the company or just in managing people in a work place environment. She's been coasting on the name and that's only ever going to get her so far.
@@whatever3145 Nah. Kendall has had significant business experience for years prior to the show’s start, just never proved he was a capable leader. Roman as well, but to a lesser degree. It’s the whole reason as to why Kendall felt slighted in the first season, first episode in fact: he thought he had earned it, but he was nowhere near ready to take the reigns. Shiv has only ever been invested in her political aspirations, despite holding beliefs in direct contrast to her father’s. This is the logical fallacy of Shiv. She has no experience at Waystar, unlike her brothers.
@@whatever3145 Not really. While the show hasn't really emphasized this in later seasons, in earlier parts, Kendall's education and experience was often mentioned, and more importantly, shown. He actually understands business metrics, how business works and is the only one shown to actively work with numbers. That is because he's the only one who actually is competent enough. Sure, Kendall has coasted with the name to some degree, but he has competency to him. Take for example the episode, where the fate of Vaulter is decided. Roman is too incompetent to actually delve into KPI's, but Kendall is showed working and reading them. That scene is meant to highlight the difference in their experience and skill.
How is Roman more qualified than Shiv? Agree on Kendall. But Roman looks like he can't even run a shop let alone a media empire. The guy is a walking PR disaster and impulsive. Fires people with second thought, sends dick pics to directors. The company will go bankrupt under him. Roman is the least qualified by far.
Thank you for having a nuanced view on this. I think the heteronormative tendency to hate the woman is sadly common. You explained WHY she has her personality traits. Great work!
Yes thank you for commenting as well. I was getting worried that I was alone drowning in a sea full of superficialities. Even in this video’s comment section we still see people missing the point and hating Shiv for reasons they themselves don’t understand.
Just googled it - what are you talking about?: Heteronormativity is what makes heterosexuality seem coherent, natural and privileged. It involves the assumption that everyone is 'naturally' heterosexual, and that heterosexuality is an ideal, superior to homosexuality or bisexuality.
You've got to be kidding me. Shiv is no more conniving than her brothers. They cut her out, promised they'd include her in discussions, and made a decision completely without her to trash the deal. She's just smart enough to fight for herself
It's like Kendall said, "Some people just don't know how to cut a deal". She alternatively could have made herself useful to her brothers and gotten something in return, but she's too narcissistic to live in a world where she isn't positioned above her brothers.
@@SuperCrow02 But WHY would Shiv go backwards trying to prove herself to people that betrayed her right off the bat? Had the situation been reversed with Shiv cutting out Roman or Ken first after they had explicitly promised to act together, you all would feel the boys would be very justified in striking back against her and fighting for themselves. But because it is Shiv, she is somehow supposed to forgive the betrayal and still try to work together even though it is very clear no one ever really considered her for the top job. She is a bitch and an awful person, but in this case, I don’t blame her one bit.
@@SuperCrow02 I don't think her brothers would see her as "useful" ever - because she's a woman. They say it's because she doesn't have a lot of experience, or it's just too many of them... there's always an excuse for sexism.
I just found d succession so I'm watching from Season 1. This is the only place I come to.for analysis and ( wait for it) observations. I likes and subscribed. You always have great commentary.
I'm not defending Shiv (or anyone in this show), but Shiv started talking and strategizing with Mattson because the siblings immediately started to cut her out of conversations. Kendall and Roman would be CEOs and over time began including her less and less in conversations.
And she could have made herself useful to her siblings and helped them tank the deal, potentially getting something valuable in return. But instead of even trying to cut a deal with her siblings she went straight to the devil.
@@SuperCrow021.she couldn’t have helped them bc at first they tried to tank the deal behind everyone’s back. Shiv just figured it out first. Kendall and Roman betrayed everyone, not just Shiv, but the entire board bc they wanted to stay CEOs. 2. why would she help them even if she knew? they promised her it’s only temporary and they’d lead PGN together in not time. As EQUALS. Why would she help them stay in charge while she’s being cut out and betrayed lol. Idk what u think you’ve been watching so far but this isn’t a series about selfless characters who forgive people and don’t want power for themselves 😂 She got revenge just like any of the siblings would have
@@dmaria682 That is not what selfless means lmao. She's literally working against her best interests for the slightest chance of being named CEO by Madsen. She's not being clever, she's being petty and moronic.
Why should she be loyal? Not one of them ever intended to be loyal to her so why should she break her heart over them when they would never return the favour 🤷♀️ better to grab what you can for yourself and your children and let's face it, the only way she could ever garner any kind of respect from her siblings is to play them, IS to be disloyal .
@@frankjennings4489 well the most recent one is the gojo deal. Both Kendall and Roman actively worked to ruin the deal all while keeping Shiv out of everything, and not letting her know their intentions, even though they were clear since they became CEOs, that they will keep her in and let her know everything that's happening, but instead lied and hid everything from her, and only explained it all after she exposed them. So yeah I would call that betrayal, and her working with Matson against them is pretty understandable to me, because she realized that both her brothers are only working for their own interest and not thinking about her, so might as well do the same to them. Pretty understandable reaction for what Ken and Rome are doing.
I wonder whether the writers considered that "shiv" is also the term an illicit blade used as a weapon in prisons. A little comedic nominative determinism? Either way Kendall got shivved.
Exactly, they literally humiliated him the night before only to then rug pull him. Both Roman and Shiv could literally have held the fact that they got him the CEO role over his head for the rest of his life. All because she just couldn’t stomach him being the CEO. I’ve never hated a fictional character more.
I think Shiv has had the greatest story arc over the 4 seasons. Even though each character is stuck in a circle and their core behaviors and issues stay the same, she seems to have changed the most. I go back and forth between Shiv and Roman being my favorite character.
@@SCharlesDennicon she started working for her dad, she stopped lying to Tom, she dropped her politcal views. Basically she stopped pretending to be different from her family and started doing things to be closer to power. Go watch the pilot lol
@loudgrape28 it's pretty obvious with the way she is fired by Eavis that her political stances were entirely negotiable, if she was any sort of progressive she wouldn't be anywhere near ATN and *definitely* wouldn't have been anywhere near Mencken. She caves in both situations.
@@malinuhhh47 I agree with you, I never said she was progressive. I said she was pretending to be different from her family. Part of that pretending (whether she was fully aware of it or not) was trying to support a different political agenda than her dad in the beginning
Just like the old fable... "Why would you sting me?" asks the frog. "Now we're both going to die!" "I couldn't stop myself!" replied the scorpion. "It's who I am!"
There is a lot of Shiv hatred by a lot of fans (or at least people who comment online) that's disproportionate to her actions and much stronger than anything said about the brothers (or Tom or Greg). It's difficult to not connect that with her gender. When you just look at their actions objectively at this point, they are all bad people in different and overlapping ways, and the siblings are all also victims of their trauma and their dad. I'm not rooting for her above the others, but the feedback for her specifically has really stood out to me.
i mean just take a look at this comment section already lol of course it's down to her gender (and god do i hate pointing out this already tired narrative - but in this case it's so true i can't help it). as a side, and unrelated to the comment above, i agree with most of the points in this video - except the question of "if logan had been in the position to go to jail instead of kendall - would she have still saved tom over him?" this point is just moot. as this video points out several times, logan is the source of her abuse. of course she would not have had the gall to send him to jail over anyone. in classic roy kid fashion, she would've died for his approval over anything else in this life.
I can never get how Shiv is the worst when Kendall betrayed his family twice and his Kids. Roman literally has nowhere to go because he's a happy puppy in cage. Even Tom and Greg are not loyal and change sides in a blink. But they're either Machiavellian or killers,not disloyal losers.
Shiv is a back-stabbing, manipulative, duplicitous individual who clearly would, or has, sold her soul to the highest bidder. It is not her sex, she’s just the worst!
I don’t hate Shiv and I am hesitant to speak for others but I think a lot of the negativity towards Shiv goes back to the open marriage and specifically springing that on Tom after the wedding. Tom having to deal with that guy Nate knowing he slept with Shiv and he’s here drinking his champagne (and Tom makes him pour it back in the bottle). I know Logan has done his dirt but we never heard the story of what happened to Colin’s mom and as far as Caroline we know she hates Logan now and probably for good reason but nothing played out on screen. Kendall has drug and alcohol problems which can certainly screw up a marriage but we never hear of infidelity as far as he and Rava.
Misogyny definitely plays a part for a lot of people, but I think for me she's just the biggest disappointment. Roman was a monster ever since the pilot, so every time he does something slightly redeemable we just want to hug him. Ken is just boring and predictable in my opinion, and there's a sort of justice to Tom whenever he's an asshole. But Shiv always felt like the least irredeemable. Had political views beyond money, always acknowledged how out of touch they were. Almost played the straight man role in the absurd family. But then every time she has a moral high ground she throws it away in the most disappointing way. She has the opportunity to be likable, but makes you feel like an idiot every time you try to.
She's the only woman in a family of sharks. She HAS To try and be a step ahead of everyone because she knows "how the world works", as Logan told her. Her attitude, behaviour pattern, even her body language, low tone, and lack of feminine clothes are all part of her survival strategy. I feel that the overall hate for Shiv is deeply unfair.
@@idab9958why is it misogynistic the fact that they all suck doesn’t mean that one of them doesn’t suck the most and in this case it absolutely is shiv especially because of her behavior towards Tom
I’ve never forgiven her for stealing Greg’s last $20, and not even being able to recognize that she did it.
It's only 20 dollars, what could you even buy with that? 2 bananas?
he's getting 200k a year for assisting Tom in season 4 lmao
impeccable writing! greg even tells her that this is his last money, and SHE tells HIM that thats ok. i guess she wanted to say 20 is enough for now.
@@marykay7878she thought it's his last money in cash most people still have money in their bank account
To be fair she didn’t know he was homeless/broke and he for some reason didn’t just say “no” 😭
I can't believe you did a breakdown of Shiv and didnt mention her mother. The one scene at the wedding alone is worth it's own video.
100 percent
He’s spoken about it before in a previous video if I recall
she had like 40 seconds of lines in the whole episode and she DESTROYED everyone
@@fergie42069 FORREAL
There's a previous video on this and the whole Chiantishire/All the Bells Say S3 finale
We gotta talk about how Kendall is slowly becoming Logan. We gotta talk about how Roman cried like a lost boy (and made me cry like a boy too), we gotta talk about Shiv being redhead while everyone else isn’t
We gotta talk about Connor being interested in politics from a very young age
Why is she a redhead?
I think we gotta talk about Greg being in the car with Matsson. Maybe?
@@iamliterallyjesuschrist
Ressesive genes?
Do they work like that?
Logan was Scottish, and there are more redheads there than anywhere else… so genetics?
Despite Shiv being the only redhead in the fam I actually feel like she's the only one who realistically looks like she could be Logan's child, I think it's in the eyes and shape of the face.
Shiv is a Roy - both a terrible person and a victim of emotional abuse.
Is someone a victim if they subject themselves to it?
@@mystriddlery Subject themselves to it by what, choosing to be born into an abusive family? All the Roy kids are victims
@@abrakedavra9605 Choosing to stay. She’s an adult, she could leave whenever she wanted to, my comment was more about her as an adult.
@@mystriddlery she simply doesn’t know better. I’m aware that alone sounds dumb, but in a place where she was constantly thrown under the bus for being a woman what seemed the most reasonable was to stay and prove everybody wrong.
Besides, leaving wouldn’t be the best economic move either. Lastly, all of them are victims no matter what. All of them could have left at any point in time. But everyone’s much too broken, they try to always come on top but are completely failing to see how money can actually do good. The problem is how would they know if the people they surround themselves and what they have always known was inherently wrong?
Kendall, Roman and Siobhan should have try and do what Connor did. But we all know how Connor is. It certainly wouldn’t have helped the company either, why did all of the kids left knowing they had a shot at being as good as their dad (or that’s what the public thinks, even when everybody knows how much of an ass Logan is).
What is it that Logan hides that made their own kids leave. American people love a family man, or the idea of one. Logan simply would have lacked the support of a big part of the public that watches their trash. Even the majority too, just maybe.
I don't actually think she was a victim as much as Kendall and Roman. She was youngest and an only girl and youngest children are usually showered with attention. She's also the most entitled of the three which means she was spoiled, and Marcia calls her spoiled and everyone mentioned few times she was a favorite. She was maybe dismissed for the top job as a woman, but abused.... I really don't think so. Logan calls his sons derogatory names and her he calls Pinky. So yeah, she was his pet.
I just watched the finale, and My God this videos has aged like a fine wine.
Yup spot on. She literally shivved him at the end.
@@smtiewul he would have done the same to her
Brian Cox has always asserted that Shiv was his favorite. But, in that extremely male world and as the only female, her decisions (while not managed well), do make a certain amount of sense.
Sarah Snook has the hardest role and she is so consistently brilliant that it's just a pleasure to watch her.
Guarded, yet totally vulnerable - she absolutely nails it.
Thank you! I find it interesting how easy people pile on Shiv, and extoll the terribleness of the males, as just 'brilliance' when in fact, she has to play both vulnerable, and emotionally 'CARING' not just emotional because she is hurt personally, which is all we see of the rest of the males around her.
She is the most intelligent, and has friends from the past, which are not played out, but shown in ways to cut the time down. The boys? Not so much.
She has ZERO female role models, because Logan made sure that wasn't available to her.
People can't see, and in a world that is extolling the virtues of 'no virtue' as in 'GREED' where that gets Kendall a round of applause in a 'church service'.
Shiv asks about how her father really was, example, her asking Karl and Frank: "What was he really like?" What other sibling ever even cared, except when Ken asks Frank, but for Kendall...what did Frank think Logan thought about KEN.
Is Logan capable of having a favorite for more than a few moments? I think he gets that Shiv is most like himself and she's the one he probably dislikes the least.
How does she have the hardest role?
@@GloriaSangrealcan we just agree that every Roy sucks
Shiv is the worst. Horrible person.
If Connor's eulogy was "formally inventive" compared to his sibling's speeches, I really would have loved to see it. What was it? A dialogue between his 12 year old self and the casket? Then halfway through Willa - realising he is loosing the crowd - improvised an impression of his mom being dragged into a mental institution?
Hello. I’m here as a fellow human to acknowledge that Logan has, as we know, passed on. Logan was a man. Also, Logan was the CEO of the Waystar company for 50 years. And when a man dies, it is sad. All of us will die one day. In this case, it is Logan who has done so. Logan was alive for 81 years. But no more. Now he is dead. Logan’s wife was Marcia. They were married for an undisclosed amount of years. Now she is sad.
shes always ALWAYS the first suggested to be thrown under the bus, or the last to be thought of, an afterthought. I can see why Shiv gravitates towards keeping her options open at all times cos there is never a reward for her doing the right thing
also, i thought shiv was the middle child after kendall and roman was the youngest
@@rebeccagibbs4128 bc Roman acts like a child 90% of the time, and yet he's still taken more seriously than Shiv.
Amen!!!
THIS!!!!!
Thank you!! Finally, someone sees it.
I've been binge-watching the seasons again looking for Easter eggs, but what struck me is how rarely she's the 1st to break rank. Almost always she gets screwed over 1st. The few rare times when she's 1st came from her reading a situation/dynamic correctly.
Roman always acts like the youngest. I always forget that Shiv actually is the 4th Roy child.
Those are made up rumors. In the series is obvious Roman is the youngest.
@@usagi_tNo, it is confirmed that Shiv is the youngest child on the family and Roman is the youngest boy. It's just because Roman is mostly too chill and more laidback while Shiv is always being serious since she used to work at politic before
Well Roman does have youngest sibling energy doesn't he
...huh? Roman is the youngest
Looking back on the show... Logan, Kendall, and Roman have made several comments about how smart and competent she is. We later learned that Shiv never asked to work for their family company because she thought she would be denied. That shocked Logan because she never even asked him. Yes, she would be at a disadvantage , but with changing of the times and Logan promoting women in his own organization to high places of power, I can see a future where she was chosen to take over. In terms of experience, Shiv doesn't have more than the brothers. This is highlighted multiple times in the show. Even with Roman is told that he doesn't have the skills needed, he goes into management training and comes out more competent. This is recognized for the old timers and Logan. When Shiv is brought in, Logan offered her this as well since she never held a high position in the company. She didn't go through this because she thought it was beneath her. She ran into the same wall Kendall did in realizing that Logan never wanted to give up the mantle and hand the baton to someone else.
Shiv may not have the experience or knowledge, but I still wonder why Logan kept Tom around. There has to be more of a reason than Tom loves Shiv.
@@annkey4091 Tom was a tool that just wanted to please, which is easy to use. Shiv wanted top seat and didnt have any drive because she just expects it to be handed to her with no demonstration of her value. Harder to use.
@@annkey4091 Well, I get that Tom at the minimum level of experience required for the positions he's held. He also seems to know how to run part of the organization. People don't say that he's bad at his job or he doesn't know what he's doing. They just say that the only reason he got the positions he did are because of who he's dating/married to...which is true.
@@dragonhero14 Isn't being married to the right person sometimes enough? Truth is that Tom has volunteered to take a hit and has been taking hits since he married into the family, I guess that there are material tradeoffs.
@@annkey4091 I agree. That was the part of the point I was making. Tom is capable of doing the job. But I think that it's not what he wants. Especially seeing him in the episodes after Logan's death. He's managing the job, but is also suffering. Part of this is due to the siblings fighting, but a lot also has to due with the big shoes Logan left. He's had to step up significantly to keep day to day operations running as expected. I would be shocked if he either becomes the CEO, or just decides to leave it all behind him and walk away. Remember, he offered that to Shiv in Season 1.
I don't agree with the last part where you said that Rome and Ken are trained to work together for a common goal, but Shiv isn't. Because ken and rome are only pretending to work together, while actively on the side trying to cut each other out, both of them are planning to takeover, even if it takes hurting the other one. Both ken and rome are working for their best interest even if it meant hurting the other siblings. And that's exactly what Shiv is doing too, they're all the same, Ken and Rome are not better in any way.
Yeah, this is called misogyny lol
@@miseendriste6337 No, its not. Rome actually thinks its about the family, even though he dropped the ball. Ken wants it all for himself and almost has the competency to achieve it, Shive wants it all but has none of the competency to achieve it. At the end of it she just isnt a likeable person and itll tank her no matter what. She couldve easily bribed Greg last episode for his silence but no she took the weird agro move and killed her chances. Awful instincts compared to Ken/Rome. And no, just because she isnt suited for the job doesnt make it misogyny lol, you probably blame all your shortcomings on misogyny.
@@miseendriste6337 yep Shiv can exhibit the exact same behavior as her brothers and she's maligned for it while her brothers get a pass. Misogyny runs deep in many fandoms.
Yep. And somehow people also miss the very obvious fact that it was Kendall and Rome who betrayed Shiv first, not the other way around, by trying to tank the deal and breaking their promise that them being CEOs was only temporary and they’d be leading PGN together in no time. Shiv simply answered. Coldly and ruthlessly but it was reaction not action.
They’re all just as bad and just as disloyal as each other, Roman included. He was only truly loyal to his father.
@@dmaria682 Kendal came forward and was honest with Shiv about his intentions, even left space for her to admit the same and all she did was hug him and call him a good person lol. Trying to pin the hate against her as mysogyny when the show makes her so purposefully hateable (mainly via her treatment of Tom) is stupid and just grasping at straws.
Very interesting take. As a psychology student this makes a lot of sense from a developmental perspective. Her duplicitous nature is a defence mechanism to remain guarded and focused on her ambitions. It speaks to the toxic culture she's been brought up in as well as the societal expectations of women in corporate environments. It's fascinating.
Its not about gender. Even Gerri, Karolina and Rhea - the three biggest female heavyweights on the show, all acknowledge that Shiv is not cut out to be a boss. She avoids training, she avoids tough decisions, she avoids day-to-day decisions and any time she senses pressure she runs to check what "her other options are", which is a running theme throughout the entire series. Notice how every time things got hot for the family, at least ONE person questions Shiv to see if she's working with the other side or is even interested in the play. One of many plot devices the writers use to show you Shiv is the weakest of the 4 siblings.
Her brothers and father have jerked her around since Season 1. Logan’s entire modus operandi is to be unfaithful to everyone, loyal to no one, use anyone and everything, keep all options open and even his children are subject to be cut off. Season 3 was a masterclass. Roman and Kendahl were working to cut Shiv out from top of Season 4 and absolutely since Ep.3 and then have the gall to act betrayed when they realize Shiv figured out early on what they were up to and maneuvered instead of leaving herself exposed when they again pulled the rug out. They were mad Shiv wasn’t they “mule or errand girl” they wanted her to play. some point even Charlie Brown stops believing Lucy when she swears she wont yank the football. Of all the Roys, I think Shiv is most like Logan.
They all have something of Logan in them.
You nailed it. I keep having so many arguments about this so it's great to see someone else pointing out what should be so clear to everyone else. The writers couldn't have made it any clearer without actually coming out and saying it
She would’ve been a great CEO if only she fucking learned anything at all about that company. She was always an afterthought because she never put the work in. They say several times how she’s the most unprepared. Because she purposely stayed away from the business she never learned the ropes like Kendall and Roman did.
Logan even gave her a clear path on what she had to do and she didn’t like it because it was too long for her. That’s when Logan realised she wasn’t a good fit either, when she wasn’t willing to do her due time with all the grown ups - Frank, Gerri, himself, etc, to learn the business.
I think this is what annoys me the most about this character and why she’s my least favorite. They are all terrible people. But the other two were at least involved in the company somewhat. Shiv just comes outta nowhere and expects to be given the keys to the kingdom immediately. In a world full of entitled people, she manages to outdo everyone.
@@Emy-fv5ny Yeah, Kendall has the desire (and more experience than his siblings) but lacks that cutting edge. Trying to be a killer is not the same as being one. Roman has the instincts but has no spine or discipline. Shiv has the strategy but none of the experience where necessary.
Rhea summed it up neatly back in s2. Ken has all the shots but doesn't know when to play them, Roman could actually be good but nowhere near now & Shiv thinks she's smarter than she is (similar to Cersei Lannister in ASOIAF).
@@SebisajiminstanExactly, Shiv isn't necessarily extra detestable for wanting something she didn't earn.
She's extra detestable because she *feels* entitled to something she didn't put the work in for, which is far worse. Logan laid out a clear plan for her to be prepared and she rejected it (even if it wasn't real, going thru it would've made her more credible). Then she has the gall to feel demeaned when no one respects her. It's bad to be guilty yet it's worse to thereafter insist on innocence which is what Shiv does in the business and with her brothers and especially with Tom when he calls her out.
Also, her nickname Shiv could also reference to Shiva, The God of Destruction in Hindu. Very fit to her character.
But Shiv is a handmade knife used to stab people in prison, bery telling
It's short for shibion
A shiv is prison slang for an improvised weapon/knife
@@SweetLotusDreams Which is pretty much fitting to her nature as she mostly likes to backstab everyone for her advantage. Also, Tom gave her Scorpion badge is a good gift to show how she is just like Scorpion which likes to sting its opponent.
@@wamiqmohammad466 I know but she only being called Siobhan whenever shits going real. Except when she has to present herself as Director of Operational (even though she's never work at the company) in Season 3 if I'm not wrong when she deliberated a speech until Kendall interrupted her with "Rape Me" song by Nirvana.
I feel like shiv is getting played by Matsson
It’ll be hilarious if Matsson names Greg CEO
oo shit yeah, they even went partying too, that would be epic
@@kidhalloween8570someone he can control and would be happy with just the title and social clout makes a lot of sense
You think?
@@kidhalloween8570 I genuinely think that will happen
Your final line in these videos always makes me go “Wow”. I wait to hear them. Your analysis and script writing is exceptional.
I just wish more people called her Siobhan. Her name is so beautiful
I agree, it's a lovely name.
when Tom says it, I swoon
How is that pronounced
Shiobhan = Shiv-on
I love it when Logan says her name
Nobody can be trusted is this show.
Facts!
This whole family is a nest of vipers 🤢
Roman is the most loyal to the family… not the country but the family. Kendall will do anything to take the company for himself… shiv just isn’t loyal to anything
In Roman's case, is it "loyalty" or a form of Stockholm syndrome?
i think connor it's the most loyal
Why is the right is seen in the show as the second coming of Nazi .like somehow the left have the magical stick to save everything and help everyone like .bru what the fuck with political biased and also the left have been shown to be group of privileged bricks through the show so why until season four .Roman is the only good businessman .kit is just addicted mess who have to be addicted to something from power to drugs and acts as spoiled shit that he is if he doesn’t have what he wants .and shiv oh shiv I really think everything that Tom said about her is true .she just don’t have the capacity to love to care or even know what the fuck to do with her life. The show will end and the characters I love the most and sympathies is actually Tom and ginger which are very terrible people
@@axis7879
You mean the unfunny joke
The gold digger
The weakest character of the series
shiv is loyal to herself, and what power she'll get
The actress is fantastic!!!! And I liked her character a lot in the beginning. Towards the end I hated her so much more than most characters. And that says a lot considering how pretty much all of them are morally corrupt and detestable.
Tom had it right. She is a scorpion. Stinging people is just who she is and what she does.
❤
Shiv wants to keep all her options open at all times. She wants all benefits and no risk. I think she stayed out of the company not to stand out, but to avoid risk. She didn't want fail. If she stayed out, she could tell herself she would do the job better if asked. She leaned on the excuse that she wasn't asked to take the top job. When she was offered the job, she scoffed at the idea she would have to work her way up. That would mean having fully commit, to fully risk, for her prize, and she wouldn't do it. Even in Shiv's old job, she doesn't take risk. She give political advice, she didn't run for office herself. If a candidate failed or didn't listen to her advice she can still blaim the failure on them. Shiv's favorite position is to be the critic on the sidelines, talking about what others should do, but not taking direct action herself.
That's so me!
I've never seen this show, yet I feel so identified with that whole comment about this fictional character.
"She wants all benefits and no risk." - THIS. THIS COMMENT RIGHT HERE.
yeup
She is the definition of "Talk to Talk but not Walk to Walk"
You're right that Shiv isn't loyal, and your dissection of why is really interesting. However, the boys are just as disloyal as she is. They started out this season supposedly working together as a team. But as soon as they got the chance they put themselves forth as a team of CEOs leaving her out-- which they seem to always do. And both Kendall & Roman believe that they should be CEO on their own. Kendall is making a play for that, Roman tried but he'd already sabotaged his relationship with Geri too much for her to work with him.
Also they had a deal with Mattson, which Kendall & Roman are actively trying to blow up- against the desires of their board and Mattson.
It's really sad watching their interpersonal relationships. It really seems like the best thing for them would have been for the Mattson deal to go through and for them to have that other company to run together. (And to get really really good mental health help.)
The problem of Shiv is that she thought she was more clever than what she really was.
it's been a pleasure and an honour enjoying this show with all of you.
my god this turned out to be so accurate lol
You missed the best point: her relationship with her mother.
Chiv's dad lied to her many times about her being "the one". Chiv's mom is a master manipulating narcissist who Chiv never binded with as a result. Chiv is a lone wolf.
Just an FYI, it's "shiv", short for Siobhan, a Celtic name often pronounced "shi-VAHN".
@@TheArborphiliac And it can also mean an improvised knife!
@@Elitist20 definitely, a knife or a wedge driven between things. I do not think that was accidental.
She's the biggest coward of the show. Technically a bigger coward than Greg or Tom. Rhea even says at one point that Shiv is not as smart as she thinks. Gerri and Karolina if you watch closely never treat her as a much as a heavyweight or acknowledge her as part of the inner circle the way they do with Kendal and Roman. In the end Shiv is a rich brat who wants to be the boss without putting in the dirty work. The first big sign of this is the way the lashes out at Logan anytime he wants to put her into training or management courses, classes etc. Anytime anyone on the show suggests to Shiv that she "learn the ropes" so to speak she gets inpatient and defensive. Why? She wants to be the boss NOW NOW NOW, like a child.
@@iamcase1245Shiv is the definition of Girl Boss, Gaslight and Gatekeeper. Even Marcia told her right in her face that she is a spoiled c*** on her wedding. Tom even has enough with her shits.
" They drew first blood, not me..."
Very words that I live by.
Enjoyed that. I think she seemed destined to fail on her side deal with GoJo because it was only ever about cliche buzz words.
Logan was right - they are all deeply unserious people. I'm hoping they all fail in one way or another.
I don't think they will end the series with the siblings arguing and clashing. I think they will reconcile at the end because they still love each other little bit
@@muhammadabozyied834 I think the exact opposite, maybe one will take over or maybe no one will but either way I think these people are too far gone in the succession war and loving eachother is no longer gonna happen.
@@muhammadabozyied834 any other show, I would agree, but not this one. More likely, they will all fall from grace and Greg will be the new top dog.
@@muhammadabozyied834 not sure. That's too clean an ending for the writers....
@Louis XVI but you can't agnore that they helped each other building a new company and at the beginning of this season they bought pierce and defeated their father whom they stood together through his funeral and grave
this season started with shiv really being on same team with her brothers and then she found out that kendall is doing deals behind her back without even taking her opinion, she had to go back to being the lone wolf
You hit the nail perfectly right on the head with this video which lead perfectly into the finale. Cheers
I'm sorry, when were the brothers loyal to her? Or anyone to anyone? Those two didn't have to go out of their way to join Matteson because they already brokered a deal with each other and sidelined her. Only loyalty she should be displaying is in marriage. That open marriage shit was bad. But other than that, every character has displayed lack of integrity and loyalty in this show. Ffs, she even proved her worth outside her family business, got promised and then used by her dad as a pawn and now her brothers sidelining her. Ofc she would shiv them
exactly, AND Kendall and Roman were taught to compete. THe only common cause is pleasing Daddy
Just like Skyler White, Shiv is now getting hated because she ruined the "fun" of patriarchal power fantasy. That's why it's easier for the (male) audience to hate her while siding with Kendall, Rome, Tom and Greg even though they are doing the same thing.
I mean, the one who made this video is also a guy.
@@nont18411 but fundamentally she is a bad person and I think the reason she is disliked more than Roman or Kendall is because of the other side we see to her when it comes to Tom. She’s a toxic person in business and outside of it, whereas Roman’s driving force throughout the show was having at least some family dynamic (hence why he felt apprehensive to betray Logan and to leave Kendall at his darkest moments). Kendall is a lot less likeable this season as he seems to have become just a mini Logan, but in previous seasons the viewer felt his struggle between morals and power, even somewhat in this season. Kendall was the antihero of sorts, until Logan died. Shiv however, doesn’t have these redeeming qualities at all, the only thing she has going for her is having at least some moral views on democracy and progression, but this is undermined by the fact that she just goes for whichever option benefits her the most.
Skyler was actually a good person, put in an extremely difficult circumstance, and made bad choices because of it. In BB, I think the viewer is less inclined to like Skyler because Walt is the main focus of the series (I always find that no matter how bad a protagonist is in a series I always feel that maybe they can be redeemed, and hold onto that until the end, sadly I don’t think I could say Walt really redeemed himself, even though he tried). Skyler seems to always be holding Walt back, even though she’s in the right, but because she isn’t as well established as a character as Walt is, and because she does stuff with Ted before she even knew about the meth, it’s much harder for the viewer to be rooting for her.
Ultimately it has nothing to do with the patriarchy, there are plenty of shows where a woman is the protagonist and I come to hate some of the male side characters. I’m sure that many of us, myself included, have found ourselves liking Shiv at points in the show, more so than any other character, but then she does something absolutely horrible and I hate her again. That’s what makes a show like this so good! I’ve found that with all of the characters (except maybe Logan he’s always been pretty unlikeable).
@@F1nn1810 Kendall is a drug addict, absent father and a controlling, abusive ex-husband to Ava. Roman is an almost-Joker character who humilliates and abuses others using his wealth and power - hence the tore check in a poor kid's face and the sexual harrassment of Gerri. Therefore, they are toxic in business and outside just as Shiv is - why is her abuse of the petty parasite social climber husband unforgivable but Kendall's and Roman's aren't even mentioned? Why is she judged more harshly by the spectators? I spent all 4 seasons hating and loving the siblings equally, and I can't see how could it be otherwise.
@@CavalliAna firstly, I think being a drug addict doesn’t make you an inherently bad person- it just makes you a troubled individual. Sure, the two can go hand in hand, but I think ultimately Kendall’s drug abuse in earlier seasons stems from his deep dissatisfaction with his life; a fractured relationship with his father and his siblings, and ultimately his disconnect from his ex wife and daughter. His attempts to be a better father in earlier seasons fall flat because of his drug addiction, Rava doesn’t think that he’s stable enough to get back with her or be a good father, which is true, but it doesn’t make him evil, it just highlights that he’s a deeply flawed individual that doesn’t know how to cope with his emotions. I think there’s a side to Kendall, up to the end of season 3, that is relatable and we are rooting for him to come out on top then due to his personal struggles building up to that season 3 climax. I agree with you that Roman is quite frankly a horrible person, and his actions are completely irredeemable, especially nearing the end of the show, but I would like to point out that Gerry and Roman’s weird sexual relationship wasn’t just sexual harassment from Roman, it definitely went both ways for a while until Roman pushed it too far. He is an incredibly odd character, and it’s not very clear who or what he is throughout the show; sometimes he’s a caring sibling/son who just wants a loving relationship with those around him, and other times he’s a complete irredeemable monster, doing things that give the show comic relief, but are just frankly awful. Shiv is much more like Roman in that sense throughout the series; at times, she was my favourite character, showing the highest moral compass, drive and care, especially towards Kendall, out of anyone. But this is all completely undermined when you realise that she *always* has an agenda of her own and is planning on double crossing at some point. She only wants what’s best for her even if it means splitting apart the family time after time. And I don’t believe that any of the siblings deserved the company at the end, especially after Ken’s breakdown, but she only took that from Kendall out of the jealousy we’ve seen throughout. It’s like I said before, there are times when Shiv is the most likeable character out of all of them, but it’s very hard to keep liking her when all she does is betray, lie and cheat when it’s of even the slightest convenience to her, and in my opinion, that’s what makes her the least likeable. Kendall is broken, immature and unable to deal with his emotions in a healthy way. Roman is sick and twisted but ultimately what the show needed for comic relief; you never like him per say but he is downright hilarious. Shiv is broken by being looked down upon for being a woman, and has the highest moral compass, but what are morals when it’s easier just to not stick by them whenever it’s easiest, or most convenient? Shiv’s combination of Kendall’s worst aspects with her natural distrust of everyone around her and tendency to betray makes her the least likeable out of the 3 siblings.
I feel like Shiv set up Mencken & Matsson to cut out the family in episode 9. Either Ken somehow gets it via Mencken picking (questionable after last night’s post-funeral scene), or Tom gets it (questionable too), or someone completely outside of the main characters. We’ll see
Agreed. Mencken will veto Shiv and Mattsson will veto Ken and Rome and an outsider will get it. Although it really feels like Kendall is gonna get it right this time. The underlined "Kendall LOGAN Roy" in the episode 4 seemed very meaningful.
Greg! Greg! Greg!
@@marcushertz4434 Where in the episode did you see Kendall LOGAN underlined? Thank you.
@@BbGun-lw5vi On the peace of paper that Logan wrote saying he wanted Kendall to succed he included his middle name "Logan".
Edit: Just realised that was not the last episode, but episode 4. Really felt more recent for some reason.
@@marcushertz4434 Oh, yes. I remember that.
There's something about the way you make your videos essays that make me wish I too had a youtube channel so that we can discuss opinions about the characters you portray. I was a bit freaked out you released a video just the day after the airing, so I don't know if you watched ep. 9 but your video made me watch it earlier than planned ;) I'm really glad Shiv is being given so much introspective because she has typically been so ill-spoken about over the past seasons and I felt she deserved much better (also, I completely relate to her). Is it just me or is this final season really giving it all for Shiv, Tom and Roman? (Culkin is absolutely incredible this last season) it's like the underdogs (woof) are finally given a glance of the spotlight!
Also, something unprecedented in the previous season, that I would love your take on, is the siblings as a whole: it's so rare to see grown up siblings spending so much time together, and whenever the three of them are on screen, it's such a breath of fresh air!
As usual, congrats! huge fan. Your videos are the ones I always look up for the most.
Its also key to mention that with Shiv around the swede she has no problem playing the attack dog, she is Mattson's Hugo as she is towards Tom. She's been an errand girl this entire season just to get a seat at the table. More so in this episode when she was in the trio conversation between Menken & Mattson, she's willing to take whatever is offered (CEO) from those she deems higher than her or at her level, to say the least Frank or even Carl, but never Tom. Tom's the punching bag that gets the release she cant give her brothers/Logan.
Can't make a shivlette without polyamorous seggs
This aged wonderfully well.
You nail every analysis about the Succession characters, excellent work! I really look forward to your Succ videos, all of them are such incredibly well crafter characters.
Shiv is most definitely my most hated character which I hate cause I’m a woman. I was just always so disgusted with how she treats Tom and burns every one of her bridges because they are always transactional from the start. As someone with parental trauma I found solice in beautiful stable friendships. I just wish Shiv and Rome had healthy and loving friends that could help them but they thought they were too hot ish to be friends with anyone. Both Shiv and Rome play that youngest, underserved, bratty role well. At least Ken had Stewy
The closest friend that Shiv have is either her lawyer friend in Season 3 whom later getting hired by Kendall but then she quits because Kendall is being petty and childish and also girl Sandi.
But, girl Sandi is mostly busy taking care of her sick dad and she's basically the opposite side of Shiv, being polite, calm, professional and also still respect her dad, even she feels bad to leave him in any seconds.
The closest person that Roman can befriend is either the guy on Brighstar's management training, the Aljerbanian guy and also Jared Mecken. He also succesfully convinced his siblings to pick Mecken as the new president only for Mecken to ignore him at Logan's house. There is a clue that Roman might have a crush to Mecken but Mecken is married as you see his wife and kid on his victory speech.
Connor also has a friend who is Maxim Pierce who is also weird and wacky like him and still loyal to him until season finale.
Shiv and Roman are too unstable, they both can't even befriend at least one people genuinely.
Tom I felt was doing something extremely Machiavellian during the funeral. He was working and plotting while others were mourning. Seems like a full circle moment for him but hey I could be wrong.
I have been wondering about Tom since he signed his prenup even though his Mother told him that the arrangement was "barbaric." Does the Logistics folder that Tom asked Gregg to destroy have any importance? Guess we will find out!
Tom was just too exhausted again, and that made me think he’s been snorting a ton of coke. He was really out of it.
Now that would be a finally twist of the knife to see Tom come out on top.
i dont think Tom wants to really come to terms with Logans death because he put all his eggs in logans casket, er basket. I think Shivs pregnancy is toms only way now and its a damn shame he said what he said to shiv ina cruel moment because i dont think she wil ever be able to move past that with tom.
Tom will be the American CEO and all the siblings will be cut out when it is sold.
shiv
/SHiv/
noun
INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
a knife or razor used as a weapon.
When Roman asked if his dad was really in the casket, then said "can... can we get him out?" :( Tears hit my eyeballs like a fire hose
After the finale, this analysis is brilliant !!!
this cast was so perfect, and I always loved watching Shiv on screen
I really like your channel and analysis - one point that you bring up that I hadn’t considered is just how much Conner and Roman equally are not interested in being competitive in the same way as Kendall and Shiv- that ‘s an interesting dynamic - I do want to point out that Kendall cut out Shiv in everything once him and Roman were granted temp CEO status - however Roman did make sincere effort to include Shiv.
Yep you guys did great 👍
In the end Shiv's disloyalty changed the whole game.
I remember in season 1 early on thinking "okay all the siblings are screwed up dark broken people but shiv seems the most balanced and stable one.....and with a husband as nice and friendly as Tom(lol....still first few episodes in guys....i know...) how could she turn out as bad as her siblings...right?
Wow that opinion changed quickly.....and by season 2 we all realize while highly intelligent and generally rational...the lying, the manipulation....the instant disregard and disrespect that comes out as soon as someone isn't going along with her agenda.....the cheating....the way she says i love you too to tom...knowing she cqn barely look him in the eye when saying it....
Such a well written dark female character
I truly believe that Shiv is the most similar to Logan
I always thought Rome was the youngest, whic makes it much more interesting and difficult for Shiv because that means she’s being skipped just for being a woman.
I thought Roman was the youngest too, he just exudes youngest sibling energy
I also for the longest time just assumed that Roman was the youngest because he acts most like the stereotypical youngest sibling, but I’m pretty sure it’s been confirmed that shiv is the youngest child.
Also, Shiv is somehow taller than Roman since they were kids if you look at the opening until adulthood. Shiv is mostly act mature than Roman most of the time.
This is EXCELLENT... great work.
this channel is so in depth with the character analysis
Actually blame the dad ,- Logan for everything. His children just represent different bits of him.
Finale spoilers below
This video (particularly the thumbnail) aged like fine wine. I’m devestated
Shiv thought she is very smart but wasn't
Made threats that had no real substance behind them
You can actually see which of the characters are actually smart by the way they treated Gregg
Kendall, Tom and even Logan knew the subtle tiny power gregg possessed and they made deals with him. Which shiv never does.
If you want to be a big man keep the little ones happy.
Mate your videos on succession are just brilliant. Thank you so much for making them
I feel like there are two fundamemtal differences between Kendall and Shiv. One, Kendall is more competent with the business because of his experience and because he's had to go toe to toe with Logan in a way no one else has. And the second thing is that they are both disloyal. They will both stab you in the back if it means getting to where they want. However, Shiv does so without any qualms whereas Kendall (with his idea of being a good person) may stop and feel a pang of regret. Even express said regret. But still go ahead and stab you in the back anyways!
Takes a lot of empathy for you to understand each of these characters so well. I've been keeping up with your Succession (and The Wire) characters retrospectives for weeks now, you're always so on point. Also, you've made me realize I'm more like Shiv than any character in the show.
When I started watching Succession, I thought Shiv might not be quite as bad as her peers. When I finished the show, I despised her more than almost anybody else lol
I was glad to see her finally accept her place and stop trying to "win" in the end... she might find some real happiness & possibly love now that Tom is in the power position within their relationship. Kendall not winning was definitely a major factor but the phone call where Tom finally stood up for himself in a real sense about not being sure he wanted to be in relationship with her anymore is overlooked in all these breakdowns. He threatened it before & they had that blowout fight where they said the horrific shit about each other... but that phone call with Shiv reaching out to him finally able to be vulnerable for once cause they had already said the worst things that could be said & Tom rebuffing her was a profound moment.
The worst person in any series is the person who wants to be the boss without putting in the work and being on the front lines. Its sad writers tend to make these characters female but the human brain hates people who want to lead without earning their position. In the Sopranos it was Carmela, in Breaking Bad it was Skylar, in Mindhunters it was Wendy and in Succession it was Shiv. Even Greg and Tom for the cowards and snakes that they are at least jumped into the fire.
@@iamcase1245the real strong female character was Gerri all along. Invisible yet competent and strong. She was also a killer.
Agreed. Gerri and Karolina were two of the better people on the series, regardless of being women they're just solid competitors that did what they had to in order to push the company ahead. @@clarabp2613
roman and shiv flip flopped for me. i thought shiv was decent and rome was awful, and by the end i understood roman and couldn’t stand anything shiv did.
bro posts these at the perfect times
I know it’snothing but Roman mentioned your channel when he was talking to Frank, “Just An Observation” 🙈🙈
This vidéo hits diffèrent after the finale
Shiv's flaw is thinking she can take the top job without any real experience in the company or just in managing people in a work place environment. She's been coasting on the name and that's only ever going to get her so far.
..that applies to all of them
@@whatever3145 Nah. Kendall has had significant business experience for years prior to the show’s start, just never proved he was a capable leader. Roman as well, but to a lesser degree. It’s the whole reason as to why Kendall felt slighted in the first season, first episode in fact: he thought he had earned it, but he was nowhere near ready to take the reigns. Shiv has only ever been invested in her political aspirations, despite holding beliefs in direct contrast to her father’s. This is the logical fallacy of Shiv. She has no experience at Waystar, unlike her brothers.
@@whatever3145 so true.
@@whatever3145 Not really. While the show hasn't really emphasized this in later seasons, in earlier parts, Kendall's education and experience was often mentioned, and more importantly, shown. He actually understands business metrics, how business works and is the only one shown to actively work with numbers. That is because he's the only one who actually is competent enough. Sure, Kendall has coasted with the name to some degree, but he has competency to him.
Take for example the episode, where the fate of Vaulter is decided. Roman is too incompetent to actually delve into KPI's, but Kendall is showed working and reading them. That scene is meant to highlight the difference in their experience and skill.
How is Roman more qualified than Shiv? Agree on Kendall. But Roman looks like he can't even run a shop let alone a media empire. The guy is a walking PR disaster and impulsive. Fires people with second thought, sends dick pics to directors. The company will go bankrupt under him. Roman is the least qualified by far.
What you say in 6:48 hits different after watching the finale. That's exactly what ended up happening
This is the best Shiv breakdown I've ever seen
and looky looky who brought the empire all crashing down, so right it hurts
Thank you for having a nuanced view on this. I think the heteronormative tendency to hate the woman is sadly common. You explained WHY she has her personality traits. Great work!
Yes thank you for commenting as well. I was getting worried that I was alone drowning in a sea full of superficialities. Even in this video’s comment section we still see people missing the point and hating Shiv for reasons they themselves don’t understand.
Just googled it - what are you talking about?: Heteronormativity is what makes heterosexuality seem coherent, natural and privileged. It involves the assumption that everyone is 'naturally' heterosexual, and that heterosexuality is an ideal, superior to homosexuality or bisexuality.
Shiv is the worst Roy, and it has nothing to do with her being a woman.
@@bensmyth450 naw. the worst Roy is Kendall and it has nothing to do with him being a man.
@@jimmyramos1989 Catchy comeback but unfortunately it doesn’t make any sense
You've got to be kidding me. Shiv is no more conniving than her brothers. They cut her out, promised they'd include her in discussions, and made a decision completely without her to trash the deal. She's just smart enough to fight for herself
Exactly.
It's like Kendall said, "Some people just don't know how to cut a deal". She alternatively could have made herself useful to her brothers and gotten something in return, but she's too narcissistic to live in a world where she isn't positioned above her brothers.
@@SuperCrow02 But WHY would Shiv go backwards trying to prove herself to people that betrayed her right off the bat? Had the situation been reversed with Shiv cutting out Roman or Ken first after they had explicitly promised to act together, you all would feel the boys would be very justified in striking back against her and fighting for themselves. But because it is Shiv, she is somehow supposed to forgive the betrayal and still try to work together even though it is very clear no one ever really considered her for the top job. She is a bitch and an awful person, but in this case, I don’t blame her one bit.
@@SuperCrow02 I don't think her brothers would see her as "useful" ever - because she's a woman. They say it's because she doesn't have a lot of experience, or it's just too many of them... there's always an excuse for sexism.
@@goodnessthentruth Matson is far more sexist than either Kendall or Roman so you're only furthering my point
I just found d succession so I'm watching from Season 1. This is the only place I come to.for analysis and ( wait for it) observations. I likes and subscribed. You always have great commentary.
I'm not defending Shiv (or anyone in this show), but Shiv started talking and strategizing with Mattson because the siblings immediately started to cut her out of conversations. Kendall and Roman would be CEOs and over time began including her less and less in conversations.
Yeah probably. It's a cycle of revenge and retribution. She got cut out and she felt the need to get revenge. They're all just assholes.
She started even before that.
And she could have made herself useful to her siblings and helped them tank the deal, potentially getting something valuable in return. But instead of even trying to cut a deal with her siblings she went straight to the devil.
@@SuperCrow021.she couldn’t have helped them bc at first they tried to tank the deal behind everyone’s back. Shiv just figured it out first. Kendall and Roman betrayed everyone, not just Shiv, but the entire board bc they wanted to stay CEOs.
2. why would she help them even if she knew? they promised her it’s only temporary and they’d lead PGN together in not time. As EQUALS. Why would she help them stay in charge while she’s being cut out and betrayed lol. Idk what u think you’ve been watching so far but this isn’t a series about selfless characters who forgive people and don’t want power for themselves 😂 She got revenge just like any of the siblings would have
@@dmaria682 That is not what selfless means lmao. She's literally working against her best interests for the slightest chance of being named CEO by Madsen. She's not being clever, she's being petty and moronic.
once again, a brilliant take
Coming to this review after the finale, and wow!!
the way she is constantly told she is inexperienced
Why should she be loyal? Not one of them ever intended to be loyal to her so why should she break her heart over them when they would never return the favour 🤷♀️ better to grab what you can for yourself and your children and let's face it, the only way she could ever garner any kind of respect from her siblings is to play them, IS to be disloyal .
loyalty won’t get her anywhere but Matson for sure playing her. Dangling that US ceo carrot in front of her
Kendall sure, but when has Roman ever betrayed her?
It's not so much that she should be loyal, but that she shouldn't get into bed with every Mattson she sees on a whim.
@@frankjennings4489 well the most recent one is the gojo deal. Both Kendall and Roman actively worked to ruin the deal all while keeping Shiv out of everything, and not letting her know their intentions, even though they were clear since they became CEOs, that they will keep her in and let her know everything that's happening, but instead lied and hid everything from her, and only explained it all after she exposed them. So yeah I would call that betrayal, and her working with Matson against them is pretty understandable to me, because she realized that both her brothers are only working for their own interest and not thinking about her, so might as well do the same to them. Pretty understandable reaction for what Ken and Rome are doing.
She's doing what she thinks is best for her, even if it will hurt her brothers, cause that's exactly what they're doing to her too
Another masterpiece created on this channel
Keep it up
I always look forward to your great analysis, thank you!
Fantastic analysis as always!
I wonder whether the writers considered that "shiv" is also the term an illicit blade used as a weapon in prisons. A little comedic nominative determinism? Either way Kendall got shivved.
I'm here after the season Finale and You called it Shiv was disloyal till the end.
Will you be making an analysis on the finale? I really hope you do.
this is a very good psychoanalysis video!
Going back to this video after the finale, this is almost 99% accurate prediction 👏👏
She made Ken eat a Spit Smoothie and then voted against him anyway.
Exactly, they literally humiliated him the night before only to then rug pull him. Both Roman and Shiv could literally have held the fact that they got him the CEO role over his head for the rest of his life. All because she just couldn’t stomach him being the CEO. I’ve never hated a fictional character more.
I love your analysis. So curious and intelligent and... well... observant.
I think Shiv has had the greatest story arc over the 4 seasons. Even though each character is stuck in a circle and their core behaviors and issues stay the same, she seems to have changed the most. I go back and forth between Shiv and Roman being my favorite character.
How has she changed...?
@@SCharlesDennicon she started working for her dad, she stopped lying to Tom, she dropped her politcal views. Basically she stopped pretending to be different from her family and started doing things to be closer to power. Go watch the pilot lol
@loudgrape28 it's pretty obvious with the way she is fired by Eavis that her political stances were entirely negotiable, if she was any sort of progressive she wouldn't be anywhere near ATN and *definitely* wouldn't have been anywhere near Mencken. She caves in both situations.
@@malinuhhh47 I agree with you, I never said she was progressive. I said she was pretending to be different from her family. Part of that pretending (whether she was fully aware of it or not) was trying to support a different political agenda than her dad in the beginning
So I Johnny come lately this series a few weeks ago so I’d be lost without These videos great job
It was awesome to hear Roman name drop this channel on last nights episode!
Just like the old fable... "Why would you sting me?" asks the frog. "Now we're both going to die!" "I couldn't stop myself!" replied the scorpion. "It's who I am!"
This video was a prediction of what was to come in the finale.
This aged well.
There is a lot of Shiv hatred by a lot of fans (or at least people who comment online) that's disproportionate to her actions and much stronger than anything said about the brothers (or Tom or Greg). It's difficult to not connect that with her gender.
When you just look at their actions objectively at this point, they are all bad people in different and overlapping ways, and the siblings are all also victims of their trauma and their dad.
I'm not rooting for her above the others, but the feedback for her specifically has really stood out to me.
i mean just take a look at this comment section already lol of course it's down to her gender (and god do i hate pointing out this already tired narrative - but in this case it's so true i can't help it).
as a side, and unrelated to the comment above, i agree with most of the points in this video - except the question of "if logan had been in the position to go to jail instead of kendall - would she have still saved tom over him?" this point is just moot. as this video points out several times, logan is the source of her abuse. of course she would not have had the gall to send him to jail over anyone. in classic roy kid fashion, she would've died for his approval over anything else in this life.
I can never get how Shiv is the worst when Kendall betrayed his family twice and his Kids. Roman literally has nowhere to go because he's a happy puppy in cage. Even Tom and Greg are not loyal and change sides in a blink. But they're either Machiavellian or killers,not disloyal losers.
Shiv is a back-stabbing, manipulative, duplicitous individual who clearly would, or has, sold her soul to the highest bidder. It is not her sex, she’s just the worst!
I don’t hate Shiv and I am hesitant to speak for others but I think a lot of the negativity towards Shiv goes back to the open marriage and specifically springing that on Tom after the wedding. Tom having to deal with that guy Nate knowing he slept with Shiv and he’s here drinking his champagne (and Tom makes him pour it back in the bottle). I know Logan has done his dirt but we never heard the story of what happened to Colin’s mom and as far as Caroline we know she hates Logan now and probably for good reason but nothing played out on screen. Kendall has drug and alcohol problems which can certainly screw up a marriage but we never hear of infidelity as far as he and Rava.
Misogyny definitely plays a part for a lot of people, but I think for me she's just the biggest disappointment.
Roman was a monster ever since the pilot, so every time he does something slightly redeemable we just want to hug him. Ken is just boring and predictable in my opinion, and there's a sort of justice to Tom whenever he's an asshole. But Shiv always felt like the least irredeemable. Had political views beyond money, always acknowledged how out of touch they were. Almost played the straight man role in the absurd family. But then every time she has a moral high ground she throws it away in the most disappointing way. She has the opportunity to be likable, but makes you feel like an idiot every time you try to.
This aged like fine wine
Excellent. Thank you.
Well, this was spot on 😢
Great analysis!
wonderful job!
She's the only woman in a family of sharks. She HAS To try and be a step ahead of everyone because she knows "how the world works", as Logan told her. Her attitude, behaviour pattern, even her body language, low tone, and lack of feminine clothes are all part of her survival strategy. I feel that the overall hate for Shiv is deeply unfair.
She's objectively a terrible person but so is literally everyone on this show. Singling her out as worse than anyone else is just misogynistic.
@@idab9958 No don't you get it? When men are obnoxious narcissists it's because they're men. When women are obnoxious narcissists it's because of men.
@@idab9958why is it misogynistic the fact that they all suck doesn’t mean that one of them doesn’t suck the most and in this case it absolutely is shiv especially because of her behavior towards Tom
Obsessively defending a character that is meant to satirize girlboss capitalism while thinking you’re a more enlightened feminist is very cute.
@@sprycmg thank you for perfectly illustrating my point
great video, great work !
Sibling rivalry and the way they were raised the Roy kids would rather they all lose than see one of them win
wow, right after i watched the finale i saw the title of this video. i had to click it
Awesome as always! Greetings from germany 🤘🏻