#iowawrestling #pennstatewrestling #wrestling Which NCAA Wrestling team is the Best Team Ever? We compare two record breaking teams: 1997 Iowa vs 2024 Penn State.
For their times they were the best. If you magically transport both to some random location with both teams in their primes and they go head to head PSU wins easily.
I would agree. I think wrestling has improved tremendously and that if you took all 80 All Americans in 2024 against all the All Americans in 1997, 2024 would win the majority of the matches
@@michaellong2595 Exactly, you just can't compare eras fairly. And if Iowa 1997 had the new scoring rules, every other team also had them. How would that affect each individual match? Would the strategy used by each wrestler change somehow impacting the overall score?
Thanks for the video guys. I do have a quick question: are we talking about who was the greatest NCAA wrestling team of all time or who had the greatest NCAA tournament of all time? If it's the former, then it has to go to 2024 Penn State. To be the greatest wrestling team of all time then dual meets have to matter. Not only did Iowa lose to OK State (21-13) but they narrowly beat an Iowa State team (20-18) that was only 7-6-1 heading into their second dual match (yep they wrestled twice that year). Compare this to PSU who closest dual was a 22-13 defeat of Nebraska (the only dual they won by fewer than 10 points). If we're talking about the greatest NCAA tournament, then 1997 Iowa is definitely in the conversation (for the reasons you mentioned). They also outwrestled their seeds (their finalists' seedings were 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 6 with only the 4th ranked wrestler taking second place; the other AAs were 11 and unranked). PS's finalists' seedings were 1,1,, 1, 2, 2, 9 (with both #2 seeds finishing second). Their other AAs were seeded 6 & 7. Looking at it this way, Iowa put in a better performance in outwrestling their seeds. On the other hand, when comparing apples to apples, PSU won their title by 100 points where as Iowa won by 56.5 (a sizeable difference). In any case, fun stuff. Thanks so much
The problem with recency bias is it always considers magically transporting guys from the past into the present day and throwing into the fray. Of course today's athletes are better for a lot of reasons, but take the talent from the past and raise them up with today's training methods and you'd see that the cream rises to the top. It's ridiculous because they wouldn't be the same wrestlers, and it's impossible to say who would win. It's boring to just say that the latest is always the greatest. You can only see clearly how much better guys were than their contemporaries, and that's how they should be judged.
1983 Hawkeys had 177.5 pts (todays pts) -9 AAs who all placed top 5 other guy was a BR -3 guys who were in the olympic finals the next year with 2 gold -200 pts at big ten’s with 9 champs Plus Penn St would have had two guys not score any pts going by the follow the leader consis that Iowa went by. Kasak (19 pts) and Nagao would have been done after one match since who they lost to, didn’t make the semis.
It's not really fair though either because Penn State had much higher placement points and tech fall thing plus three point takedowns so it's easier to score Major decisions or Technical Falls, plus recruiting is a lot different today so it's much easier for Penn State to stack their lineup.
The 97 team also had McGinness redshirting to recover from previous season injury. He came back the next year to get another national championship though. Relatively speaking, Iowa was the better team. We can't really compare head to head from different eras so it all has to be relative. If we did take the talent from a different era and transfer them to the present, then we'd also have to assume they would have had the same access to modern training and advancement in technique. Too much to factor in. Just taking the level they were at then and competing against the modern guys, then I have PSU winning but the dual will be close to a split with PSU getting more bonus points. I can say pretty confidently that nobody is taking Joe Williams to school though ;0
I think you guys missed one thing. Pins are probably down because matches are getting cut short by the huge increase in tech falls. Maybe Iowa would’ve gotten less pins as well in 97.
U don’t think lilledahl and the smaller of the mirasola twins will be favorites at 25 and 97 or at least in contention? I think Barr could make a bit of noise also outside of keck
@@giacalonebuilding4443 I definitely think they could. But I wouldn’t say they are favorites to win it all yet. Like I said, I think the 2025 season will break the 2024 seasons records
You guys will do anything to hate on Penn State. You are so envious of winners. Iowa and Dan Gable were amazing. I have read Dan Gable's book autographed by him. He was and is a great man. Cael takes nothing away from him. Cael is also an amazing man. Both coached wrestlers to be the best they can be.
@@giacalonebuilding4443We get a lot of people that only comment once on the channel to say we hate _____. Lots of trolls in the wrestling community haha. I’m a huge Penn State fan, I’d even say it makes me a biased commentator.
@@michaellong2595 idk if u can be a fan of wrestling but not penn state. They really are great and levels above the field. I know it is a pipe dream but I’d love to see a psu vs everyone else dual
I would take Penn State. I think the level of wrestling is improved and even someone who might not have placed as high, like at 125, would still be able to go with someone because the new age of wrestlers are better
PSU was dominant this year. No duals were close. The Iowa 97 team lost a dual meet. Therefore they can not even be considered best team ever. Period. End of story
Silly argument as every team was at the tourney and PSU literally could have split their team in half and each half still beats every team in the country.
@@BabyBrands60056 I agree with that and I think PSU had the best team ever (although I think next season will be better), but I think the best dual team and best tournament team are different. Iowa not going undefeated in duals while still having a higher tournament point total, when adjusted for 2024, is nothing to shake a stick at.
It's more of an argument for best NCAA tournament performance ever than best team ever. That 97 team isn't even close to best Iowa team, let alone best team ever. They weren't even favored going into NCAAs. They just wrestled like maniacs because it was Gable's last outing.
Just because there was more parity in general doesn’t really hold much weight for me. It is a completely different day and age. Just like the bulls vs warriors conversation obviously the current teams would destroy the old teams because of how far athletes have come in all areas. Athletes are bigger faster stronger with more tools at their disposal
For their times they were the best. If you magically transport both to some random location with both teams in their primes and they go head to head PSU wins easily.
I would agree. I think wrestling has improved tremendously and that if you took all 80 All Americans in 2024 against all the All Americans in 1997, 2024 would win the majority of the matches
@@michaellong2595 Exactly, you just can't compare eras fairly. And if Iowa 1997 had the new scoring rules, every other team also had them. How would that affect each individual match? Would the strategy used by each wrestler change somehow impacting the overall score?
The battle of recency bias vs nostalgia begins now.
Thanks for the video guys. I do have a quick question: are we talking about who was the greatest NCAA wrestling team of all time or who had the greatest NCAA tournament of all time? If it's the former, then it has to go to 2024 Penn State. To be the greatest wrestling team of all time then dual meets have to matter. Not only did Iowa lose to OK State (21-13) but they narrowly beat an Iowa State team (20-18) that was only 7-6-1 heading into their second dual match (yep they wrestled twice that year). Compare this to PSU who closest dual was a 22-13 defeat of Nebraska (the only dual they won by fewer than 10 points). If we're talking about the greatest NCAA tournament, then 1997 Iowa is definitely in the conversation (for the reasons you mentioned). They also outwrestled their seeds (their finalists' seedings were 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 6 with only the 4th ranked wrestler taking second place; the other AAs were 11 and unranked). PS's finalists' seedings were 1,1,, 1, 2, 2, 9 (with both #2 seeds finishing second). Their other AAs were seeded 6 & 7. Looking at it this way, Iowa put in a better performance in outwrestling their seeds. On the other hand, when comparing apples to apples, PSU won their title by 100 points where as Iowa won by 56.5 (a sizeable difference). In any case, fun stuff. Thanks so much
As usual, great topic guys!
The problem with recency bias is it always considers magically transporting guys from the past into the present day and throwing into the fray. Of course today's athletes are better for a lot of reasons, but take the talent from the past and raise them up with today's training methods and you'd see that the cream rises to the top. It's ridiculous because they wouldn't be the same wrestlers, and it's impossible to say who would win.
It's boring to just say that the latest is always the greatest. You can only see clearly how much better guys were than their contemporaries, and that's how they should be judged.
1983 Hawkeys had 177.5 pts (todays pts)
-9 AAs who all placed top 5 other guy was a BR
-3 guys who were in the olympic finals the next year with 2 gold
-200 pts at big ten’s with 9 champs
Plus Penn St would have had two guys not score any pts going by the follow the leader consis that Iowa went by. Kasak (19 pts) and Nagao would have been done after one match since who they lost to, didn’t make the semis.
It's not really fair though either because Penn State had much higher placement points and tech fall thing plus three point takedowns so it's easier to score Major decisions or Technical Falls, plus recruiting is a lot different today so it's much easier for Penn State to stack their lineup.
BTW PSU went 6 for 6 in the semis this year.
1983 Hawkeyes had the most pts based on todays scoring which was 177.5
1997 Iowa scored 174 pts
Penn state wins 7 of 10 bouts against that Iowa team
The 97 team also had McGinness redshirting to recover from previous season injury. He came back the next year to get another national championship though. Relatively speaking, Iowa was the better team. We can't really compare head to head from different eras so it all has to be relative. If we did take the talent from a different era and transfer them to the present, then we'd also have to assume they would have had the same access to modern training and advancement in technique. Too much to factor in. Just taking the level they were at then and competing against the modern guys, then I have PSU winning but the dual will be close to a split with PSU getting more bonus points. I can say pretty confidently that nobody is taking Joe Williams to school though ;0
Name the Cactus 🌵 "Pinz" or"Sir Sticks-a-lot"
I think you guys missed one thing. Pins are probably down because matches are getting cut short by the huge increase in tech falls. Maybe Iowa would’ve gotten less pins as well in 97.
The 2025 Penn State team will come close to beating their record but I see them having 10 All Americans
I think they have 10 All Americans and 5 national champs. 141, 149, 157, 165 and 285. Maybe 6 if Carter comes back.
@@michaellong2595 bruh, Beau winning at 141?!?
@@CACTUS-Wrestling He’d better now that Mason Gibson not coming to PSU is partly his fault
U don’t think lilledahl and the smaller of the mirasola twins will be favorites at 25 and 97 or at least in contention? I think Barr could make a bit of noise also outside of keck
@@giacalonebuilding4443 I definitely think they could. But I wouldn’t say they are favorites to win it all yet. Like I said, I think the 2025 season will break the 2024 seasons records
Name the cactus carter bc starocci might piss on your grave if you dont
😂😂😂
83 hawks are the best. if they had the 3 pt takedown, their total would have eclipsed those two.
You guys will do anything to hate on Penn State. You are so envious of winners. Iowa and Dan Gable were amazing. I have read Dan Gable's book autographed by him. He was and is a great man. Cael takes nothing away from him. Cael is also an amazing man. Both coached wrestlers to be the best they can be.
Really? At what point did we hate on Penn State? Or express envy?
Hate on penn state? lol I was thinking they were glazing a bit did u watch the video?
@@giacalonebuilding4443We get a lot of people that only comment once on the channel to say we hate _____. Lots of trolls in the wrestling community haha. I’m a huge Penn State fan, I’d even say it makes me a biased commentator.
@@michaellong2595 idk if u can be a fan of wrestling but not penn state. They really are great and levels above the field. I know it is a pipe dream but I’d love to see a psu vs everyone else dual
Who do you take in a dual?
I would take Penn State. I think the level of wrestling is improved and even someone who might not have placed as high, like at 125, would still be able to go with someone because the new age of wrestlers are better
PSU was dominant this year. No duals were close. The Iowa 97 team lost a dual meet.
Therefore they can not even be considered best team ever. Period. End of story
Idk man, seems like not the best way to base success. UCF football went undefeated in 2017, yet we wouldn’t say they are among the best teams ever.
Silly argument as every team was at the tourney and PSU literally could have split their team in half and each half still beats every team in the country.
@@BabyBrands60056 I agree with that and I think PSU had the best team ever (although I think next season will be better), but I think the best dual team and best tournament team are different. Iowa not going undefeated in duals while still having a higher tournament point total, when adjusted for 2024, is nothing to shake a stick at.
It's more of an argument for best NCAA tournament performance ever than best team ever. That 97 team isn't even close to best Iowa team, let alone best team ever. They weren't even favored going into NCAAs. They just wrestled like maniacs because it was Gable's last outing.
Just because there was more parity in general doesn’t really hold much weight for me. It is a completely different day and age. Just like the bulls vs warriors conversation obviously the current teams would destroy the old teams because of how far athletes have come in all areas. Athletes are bigger faster stronger with more tools at their disposal
1:33 History of the Cactus Man.
2013 Hofstra was the greatest team ever!! Look it up
This is the only correct answer!
Only reason iowa was great pa had 2 greats at every school in state
What would they have scored, with the same point system? That’s the only way to truly measure it.
That’s in column Z where Iowa would have scored more than Penn State, estimated 175 points.
Head to head ain’t happening. We’re old now.
Yea I hadn’t watched the whole video yet.