Man this is so entertaining. I was watching, and then I noticed I was 12 minutes in... WOW. Normally it feels like forever when I watch a long video, but this it flew by!
Great episode! Taught me everything I didn't understand about etching! If you're handy with an exacto knife, you could also use the spray paint method but with a stencil of your circuit. if you use some kind of adhesive to hold the stencil in place while you exacto it, you could do any circuit you want, then just spray paint it, etch it, and then acetone the paint away like he did with the laser engraver.
If you use a cheap laminator instead of the clothes iron you will get far more consistent results, and completely eliminate the chance of air bubbles. You will need to feed it through several times though, but works wonders. Just make sure you get one that can handle the thicker material of the PCB.
Oh, and another tip, when etching. If you use double sided sticky tape onto and tape it onto a small sponge so it floats you can float the PCB upside down in the etchant. This will make it go much faster as all residue from the etched PCB will just dislodge and sink down into the etchant instead of staying on the surface of the copper.
I'll second that. Ironing is REALLY inconsistent. The right photo paper + a cheap harbor freight laminator revolutionized my ability to make mid high quality PCBs at home. The laminator needs to be modified to slow it down significantly but it is a set it and forget it kind of thing. Awesome!
I use a laminator and it works perfect every time. I do double sided prints all the time and a laminator really helps with the process of getting both sides lined up. I just print out both sides, Stick the bottom print to a window, line up the top print using the outside sunlight to help me see though to the bottom print, then while holding it in place I peel back part of the top layer paper and use a glue stick to apply some glue on the edge, and then stick the top print to the bottom, after it dries you can slide in the copper sheet and stick it through the laminator. Make sure the glued side of the paper is the side you stick in the laminator first or it might come out misaligned. I've done this LOTS of time with no error.
I know this is a 2 year old video but I did have a few comments. For my agitator, I took an old 4 inch muffin fan, drilled a small hole near the end and center of one of the blades. I inserted a 6-32 screw, nut and lock washer. Then hit both sides of the screw with a small drop of epoxy, I used a rheostat years ago to ramp the speed to the point where I found resonance in the tank and the vibrations became more violent. Now I use one of those $1.50 asian made, SSCR motor control units, free shipping to regulate the fan speed. I also have a clamp on lamp and keep a 75 watt bulb just above the tank for 30 minutes before etching and during the process. The boards etch very quickly and evenly, Also, FYI, I would not use Acetone inside and also recomend using lab rubber gloves while handling this.. My boards have always turned out great with an occasional etch through on a thin run.. I can usually bridge the open with a little solder and a chisel tip. Question, I have NOT played with photo etching since my college days back in the 70's.. The new processes seem less critical. Have you played with photo etching and is there any REAL advantage over heat transfer?? I use a laminator as opposed to an iron and run the board through 5 or 6 times. For larger boards 10 times. Regards, Glenn
Just a hint for first time etchers: I personally don't recommend using FeCl3 as etchant. It's super dirty and will leave it's traces everywhere if you don't handle it carefully. I've always used Na2S2O8 (is the name sodium persulfate correct?) for etching. It works pretty much as good as ferric chloride but it is a lot cleaner. I personally used it without any handprotection and it didn't leave dirty stuff on my workbench or my hands (use gloves if you're not familiar with using chemicals right, it damages your hands if not used correctly).
A couple of more tips for those that want to try this: 1. HP printers work well for the toner transfer method. Brother printers do not. I believe the Brother toner melts at a much higher temperature and it is very hard to get it to transfer to the board without smudging (if you can get it to transfer at all). 2. Ben appears to be using Ferric Chloride etchant. This stuff is harder to get, expensive, and stains anything it touches. A cheaper and easier to get etchant uses a mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide and Muriatic Acid. Both of these are commonly available at your local drug and hardware stores and are very cheap to buy in bulk. Do some Googling and you will find the appropriate mixing ratios as well as tips for use. I'll never go back to Ferric Chloride again.
I use a Lexmark 232 laser and the toner always comes out perfectly on Kodak glossy paper and ammonium persulphate for the etchant, works really well even on fine traces and wire holes.
Raziel Znot Sodium Chloride +Copper sulphate pentahydrate + Dihydrogen Monoxide = Copper Chloride + sodium sulphate + Hydrochloric Acid. It's essentially the same as Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid + Copper + Peroxide(H2O2). Same safety precautions should be taken with any acid.
I print the PCB mask on a laser printer overhead sheet -- you can use an Inkjet as well (be sure to use the inkjet overhead sheets) but you more likely need 3 or 4 sheets with laser 1 or 2 will do, in order to make the traces truly opaque. These masks can be used over and over again. I use an off the shelf facial tanner ($50), to photgraphically expose the UV sensitive PCB. I put the mask and the PCB in between my desktop and a glass plate from a picture frame and I have the facial tanner about 2" above it laying on two books. I light it for 7 to 10 minutes I use sink cleaner to remove the exposed layer of the UV sensitive layer of the PCB and then edge it using simple off the shelf PCB edge. Then I light the edges PCB again and dump it in sink cleaner again to remove the UV sensitive layer on the edged traces. That is far away the cheapest and easiest method.
I agree, this is a good method. I've seen videos of an interesting technique: Instead of vibrating the box (messy) you gently lift one end, put it down and repeat, to create a wave that washes over the PCB, quickly removing the copper.
I just tried a slightly different laser printing method that worked great. I used laser printer transparency paper. After printing the circuit from eagle, I taped it to the copper with aluminum foil tape (the kind used for duct work). This held the transparency in place and allowed to evenly transfer heat across the print. I then placed the iron on it until it was too hot to touch which was about 2 minutes only moving it slightly. I let it cool and cut the tape on the edges. 100% of the laser printer ink transferred with no signs of a smudge. It was immediately ready for the ferric acid without any cleanup required.
You should also consider photoetching. Far less messy than the iron-on method and faster. Print the PCB design on transparency paper, tape it to a photosensitive PCB, expose it with a desk lamp then dip the PCB in a developer bath for a few minutes then etch it as usual. I've done double sided boards that way with no issues.
There is a special paper on ebay that helps to transfer toner to PCB. It's called "toner transfer paper". It has a wax layer that peels off easily after heated to PCB. Second, toner will not adhere to any greasy spots on PCB so make sure to clean with soap and not to touch the PCB with anything. I also use to transfer toner twice, so there is a thicker layer of toner and my toner level is low and prints with some holes.
Owen Chase In case of toner transfer, it's the best I've seen so far. You have to keep the paper and the copper very clean for it to adhere perfectly. The copper has to be smooth. It could not adhere to cracks, so the traces can be broken from some place. I sometimes add two layers of toner to the copper for better coverage. The paper peals off in a cold water very easily, just pull it off carefully and slow, so the toner wound stick to paper. Another danger is, that I have on printer where the paper likes to curl up around the heating bar. Other printers have no problem.
In vocstional school we learned to do it with special masking tape. It was a pain and gave varying results, but turned out well as long as you took your time.
I really like the laser-paint idea, but you could also try something similar with a 3d printer. Create your eagle schematic and export as an STL or export to some format that can be converted into g-code. Place the raw and cleaned copper pad on the printbed, adjust for height change and print out a single layer print that acts as the usual toner layer. I have yet to try this method, but after researching the toner-transfer method and realising I only have an inkjet printer, it only stands to reason that if you can coat the copper in the laser printer toner(plastic of a sort) then why not a different kind of plastic with a different kind of printer. I do believe that polymers like the nylons and ninjaflex would serve as the best option as they bond quite well with most surfaces unlike PLA/ABS. TL,DR: replace (toner/laser printer/reflective paper) with (filament/3d printer/raw pcb)
Everything known about Etching PCBS is listed at: techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbetch.htm (if I missed something, use the form at the bottom of the page to add it). Ben you might want to look into the hybrid inkjet / toner method as it is very quick, and ultra low cost. Just print on an inkjet printer (super easy if you have a CD tray, just cut out a holder for the PCB from an old CD) and dust with laser toner before the ink dries. Then melt the toner with heat or acetone vapors and you are ready to etch! Probably the fastest, most accurate, and least used way to make small PCBs. The only down side is the size of PCB you can fit in the printer, and we have lots of documentation on how hack an inkjet to take a full sized blank.
I have my own iron. I used to use it to iron on the edge veneer of wood panelling, I use it now to make pcbs. I found for the veneer I needed to clean the sole with acetone once in a while.
Did you consider putting a little water in the iron and using the Steam Press option? Great show, very informative. I liked that there were several approaches and you worked through problems with each.
heating up the etch solution speeds up the etching process. Usually use one container with hot water and a smaller container with the etching solution.
Nice video. When you look the glossy paper made pcb under a microscope (after you etch in the acid) you will see little holes in the copper. That`s because the laser printer build the images using little ink dots which aren`t close enough to make an even surface.
Why not just jackup your output power on your EPILOG laser cutter and etch away all the copper in the during the laser process? EPILOG shows this being down quite nicely on there website. I'm very curious if the current EPILOG MINI 18 Laser is cable of cutting complete PCB etching in one process like this? Maybe Ben has an older or lower power EPILOG and has to revert to only removing spray paint? I'm very curious to know. It would be so much nicer getting away totally from the etchant chemicals! Just pull the PCB out of the EPILOG rinse with rubbing alcohol or distilled water and dry with compressed air jet, done!
Apparently you can only do this with their higher end models. This laser printer isn't powerful enough to effect metals. The masking is a nice work around for making cheap PCBs though.
I don't know what kind of etchant you've used, but when I was in highschool, we used a mixture of HCl and peroxide in 1:2 ratio. Of course, acid added to peroxide, not the other way around.
I wish they still sold dry transfers and tape for manual pcb making. Now I've got to get a laser printer, pcb software, iron or laminator. Might be good for complex boards and quantity, but simple quick diy pcbsThat's progress folks.
Instead of using acetone to clean up the toner from the toner transfer, after etching, you can also use steel wool. It will not damage the copper. I just happen to find acetone quite expensive and not available at large here.
TheNLSuperGames Xano Trevisan Kothe I highly recommend using VLC Media Player. You can copy and paste any UA-cam video URL into it (Ctrl + N) and it will play at maximum quality. Someone shared this with me and it's been immensely helpful.
I've also been thinking that a glue transfer to a clean circuit board that has no copper and then using a foil heated to the surface like the scrap bookers are doing on paper might make a pretty good board too. I definitely agree with Switch & Leaver about the laminator for better results and this might also work for the foil transfer idea too. I'm surprised that we don't find more direct to board solutions by now. How about a gel pen full of metallic paint that can be plotted and heat treated? Or low temp metallic filament for 3d printers?
I'd like to know how to make those circuit boards that are a mix between breadboards and PCB boards, you don't need to etch them, they are a matte copper colo(u)r and you need to solder them to connect everything. Also a soldering iron recommendation would be good. Something good for a cheap price.
1. It would have been nice to have a closeup of the PCB's side-by-side that I could inspect myself. Along with that I would have liked to see some kind of scale/ruler that would give me an idea how fine the detail was. 2. UV. 3. Acetone is NOT a stronger alcohol. If you need to be convinced, try rubbing both on a sheet of ABS plastic. :p
Iron method is great, but I recomend to use flat iron without steam generator (or laminator) and It's usually better to heat the part that you want stick it on. So paper at the bottom, PCB at top...
Ben, you may want to get metal arms for your Replicator. They make the platform more stable. There's a guy that makes aluminum ones. The _Tested_ crew got a pair from him.
I'm really curious why you didn't include PCB milling in this video, i know it's not technically etching... but it would've ben cool to see the process of PCB milling as well... perhaps another video just for that? I'm actually reluctant about my method of making PCBs... i'm planning on building my own mini workshop for electronic projects and PCB manufacturing is an important part of it because using pref boards isn't as clean and takes a lot more time/space/wiring. Ive done my fair share of PCBs back in university. ive tried the iron method but we only had inkjets at the time and it was just a very messy and just not consistant method. at the time our preferred method for PCB making was with light sensitive boards (also another option you could've included in your video. it's by far one of the easiest and most accurate methods ive tried. printing your circuit on transparent paper, placing that paper on the photo sensitive board, under UV for about 20 minutes, placing that board into a liquid that removes the cooked photo sensitive layer (dont remember the name of that liquid) then etching it then acetone. it was excellent. but it's an expensive method as well seeing how pricey those photo sensitive boards are. That's why im considering buying/making a CNC machine for myself mainly to mill PCBs but also to make enclosure panels and engrave the texts on it for a clean end product. Would love to get a feedback on that method, the pros and cons.... thank you for these awesome videos ive been binge watching them and i hope my comment doesn't fall on deaf ears.
Another version is covering the board in paint, replace the head of your 3D printer with a very sharp point and feed your pattern to it as an inverted single layer G-code and it will scrape out the paths.
Wouldn't it be possible to directly remove the copper from the PCB with the laser cutter instead of only removing the paint? Or would this destroy also the plastic of the PCB?
Hi Ben. Had u seen with the laser paint method people using the laser to to cut the holes on through hole parts as well? I hope you can give that a try to show us.
What kind of glossy paper did you use? The Staples brand everyone loved is no longer available, though yours seemed to turn out pretty good. I've also heard using the leftover waxy paper from label sheets works very well.
I dunno if it's been mentioned in the comments yet, but I use to use 2 to 1 mix of hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid for the etching part, far superior over ferric chloride, ferric chloride stains like crazy! if you get it on your clothes, consider them destroyed! I now get my boards made off shore, for a very low price, and they use high durable fiberglass sheets, and not that composite crap that cracks easily
Australian invention - press n peel blue. Ben you also missed one of THE easiest mass production methods - using UV Photo Litho on pre-sensitized boards. Best I've used in uni was Kinsten. Mind you you HAVE to use the developer
Hey, I wonder if you could use the laser mill to etch solder mask off of the mounting pads on the board... that way, you could simply dip the board in a nice professional quality solder mask material and etch off the mask on the bits of copper which need to be exposed for soldering. If you did 2 layers, one of a light color and one of a dark color, you could etch off the dark to also create text and stuff right on the boards...
After trying different types of papers and surfaces to perform the transfer of the ink using a laser printer, the best results were obtained with the paper in which the stikers comes.
I've had much more success with a phototransfer method. You need a phototransfer pcb, but it's much easier and faster. Contrary to what people think, you don't need a transparent foil or a laser printer. Just use a semi translucent paper. Print on the highest quality settings. Use 2 layers, overlap them. Cure with UV, then use the exposing-chemical-thingy. Etch. To speed up the etching, put your etching bowl into another bowl with hot water. You can get a whole batch of PCBs done in under an hour.
Hey Ben big fan, can you use the CNC to make some holes or is it too thick, if not all your components are are surface mount? Also I have access to a CNC laser but the guy who owns it won't let me paint the coper and put it in the machine because of the fumes can I do it without the paint and just etch off the coper with the laser?
Great Video! I think if you use the pen on the board after you remove the paper you could get rid of hatching. So that would be a combination of methods. :) Also I think its worth mentioning UV light (sunlight or a sunlamp) helps the echant solution.
I like the DIY laser printer heat transfer - I can do that at home. But I don't think I've seen any episode on adding a solder mask to any pcb's. What's the easy way to do that?
Care to try using an Ink Jet to print etch resist directly onto the copper. I've yet to try it myself but there's quite a bit of chatter about this online.
For laser painting would plotting artwork as a vector graphic rather than printing as a raster avoid the aliasing issue with tracks and faint traces left in etched areas?
hey ben i think you can also use your 3d printer to make high quality pcb by growing layers of tracks of height - 500 microns on a copper clad sheet and then etch it
before sticking the toner transfer to the copper put the board in the etching liquid for 2 to 4 min or just to make it loos the copper shine the toner is holding way better to the board, of curse wash en dry the board after the acid.
I'm finding that laser photo paper is kinda hard to find, but I have no problem finding laserjet glossy brochure or presentation paper. Is that thick enough for the transferring or will only photo paper do?
the paper transfer method is the best way to do home made PCB's! on one of my last project i used an atmega88 and had no problems at all with the small distances between the traces. i'am not talking pdip it was a 32 MLF package the main thing why it did not came out great in the video.. 1, the copper need's to be rough.. that the melted toner can stick to it.. 2, the underground when ironing need's to be a hard surface 3, it was possibly the wrong paper! the right paper comes down with out water! :) but that laser machine... wow! wants to have one :) I wonder i that pice of technic can laser away the copper direcly??!! or I wonder what happend if you use the photoresist basis material with out painting it first..
Instead of glossy paper, use vinyl foil, such as Oracal 641 or similar. It gives significantly better (darker and more accurate) toner transfers and no paper residue to scrape off.
What is that dot matrix display in the Tech Timeout (On the pinball machine). Looks ideal for one of my projects.
9 років тому
when etching let the pcb float on the etchant copper side down, you will see when the board is etched, have to be carefull because air bubless are easilly trapped under the board so you need to dip the board from the edge
That method works great for making large quantities. Another similar method that works good for large quantities is the screen print method. However, both of these methods require special chemicals and films and take a while to complete. And going through that whole process for a single board that you might not even know is designed correctly is a bit much for most people. For a one-off type of board, nothing beats printing on your laser printer and just ironing it on. Ben's video really doesn't do the method justice since he spent way too much time ironing and spraying the board. Just iron once, soak, and wipe away the remnants of the paper.
Making good PCB stopping me from doing any electronics project :/ I've tried few dirty methods to do it, didn't liked them. Thinking about small CNC engraver.
I don't know if anyone had asked if you tried it, but why not try fingernail polish to coat the boards. holds hard and I know a lot of people who use it while etching metal
what's the point of doing the copper fill using the laser printer? Isn't it more easy to just include it in the design and print it in the photo paper with the actual circuit?
Man this is so entertaining. I was watching, and then I noticed I was 12 minutes in... WOW. Normally it feels like forever when I watch a long video, but this it flew by!
onlylikenerd Thanks for watching!
The Ben Heck Show what brand of photo paper did you use?
12 min is not a long vid.
Great episode! Taught me everything I didn't understand about etching!
If you're handy with an exacto knife, you could also use the spray paint method but with a stencil of your circuit. if you use some kind of adhesive to hold the stencil in place while you exacto it, you could do any circuit you want, then just spray paint it, etch it, and then acetone the paint away like he did with the laser engraver.
Glad you found the episode helpful! As a former graphic designer, I'm proficient with an X-acto - thanks for the tip!
If you use a cheap laminator instead of the clothes iron you will get far more consistent results, and completely eliminate the chance of air bubbles. You will need to feed it through several times though, but works wonders. Just make sure you get one that can handle the thicker material of the PCB.
Oh, and another tip, when etching. If you use double sided sticky tape onto and tape it onto a small sponge so it floats you can float the PCB upside down in the etchant. This will make it go much faster as all residue from the etched PCB will just dislodge and sink down into the etchant instead of staying on the surface of the copper.
I was thinking an old sandwich press might work pretty well.
I'll second that. Ironing is REALLY inconsistent. The right photo paper + a cheap harbor freight laminator revolutionized my ability to make mid high quality PCBs at home. The laminator needs to be modified to slow it down significantly but it is a set it and forget it kind of thing. Awesome!
I use a laminator and it works perfect every time. I do double sided prints all the time and a laminator really helps with the process of getting both sides lined up. I just print out both sides, Stick the bottom print to a window, line up the top print using the outside sunlight to help me see though to the bottom print, then while holding it in place I peel back part of the top layer paper and use a glue stick to apply some glue on the edge, and then stick the top print to the bottom, after it dries you can slide in the copper sheet and stick it through the laminator. Make sure the glued side of the paper is the side you stick in the laminator first or it might come out misaligned. I've done this LOTS of time with no error.
I know this comment is 3 years old and all, but can anyone recommend a laminator that would work well for this?
I know this is a 2 year old video but I did have a few comments. For my agitator, I took an old 4 inch muffin fan, drilled a small hole near the end and center of one of the blades. I inserted a 6-32 screw, nut and lock washer. Then hit both sides of the screw with a small drop of epoxy, I used a rheostat years ago to ramp the speed to the point where I found resonance in the tank and the vibrations became more violent. Now I use one of those $1.50 asian made, SSCR motor control units, free shipping to regulate the fan speed. I also have a clamp on lamp and keep a 75 watt bulb just above the tank for 30 minutes before etching and during the process. The boards etch very quickly and evenly,
Also, FYI, I would not use Acetone inside and also recomend using lab rubber gloves while handling this..
My boards have always turned out great with an occasional etch through on a thin run.. I can usually bridge the open with a little solder and a chisel tip.
Question, I have NOT played with photo etching since my college days back in the 70's.. The new processes seem less critical. Have you played with photo etching and is there any REAL advantage over heat transfer?? I use a laminator as opposed to an iron and run the board through 5 or 6 times. For larger boards 10 times.
Regards, Glenn
This is a wonderful guide, I love how he shows so many different ways of doing this.
Just a hint for first time etchers:
I personally don't recommend using FeCl3 as etchant. It's super dirty and will leave it's traces everywhere if you don't handle it carefully. I've always used Na2S2O8 (is the name sodium persulfate correct?) for etching. It works pretty much as good as ferric chloride but it is a lot cleaner. I personally used it without any handprotection and it didn't leave dirty stuff on my workbench or my hands (use gloves if you're not familiar with using chemicals right, it damages your hands if not used correctly).
A couple of more tips for those that want to try this:
1. HP printers work well for the toner transfer method. Brother printers do not. I believe the Brother toner melts at a much higher temperature and it is very hard to get it to transfer to the board without smudging (if you can get it to transfer at all).
2. Ben appears to be using Ferric Chloride etchant. This stuff is harder to get, expensive, and stains anything it touches. A cheaper and easier to get etchant uses a mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide and Muriatic Acid. Both of these are commonly available at your local drug and hardware stores and are very cheap to buy in bulk. Do some Googling and you will find the appropriate mixing ratios as well as tips for use. I'll never go back to Ferric Chloride again.
www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc
:D
Thanks for the tips!
I use a Lexmark 232 laser and the toner always comes out perfectly on Kodak glossy paper and ammonium persulphate for the etchant, works really well even on fine traces and wire holes.
Raziel Znot Sodium Chloride +Copper sulphate pentahydrate + Dihydrogen Monoxide = Copper Chloride + sodium sulphate + Hydrochloric Acid. It's essentially the same as Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid + Copper + Peroxide(H2O2). Same safety precautions should be taken with any acid.
I print the PCB mask on a laser printer overhead sheet -- you can use an Inkjet as well (be sure to use the inkjet overhead sheets) but you more likely need 3 or 4 sheets with laser 1 or 2 will do, in order to make the traces truly opaque. These masks can be used over and over again.
I use an off the shelf facial tanner ($50), to photgraphically expose the UV sensitive PCB. I put the mask and the PCB in between my desktop and a glass plate from a picture frame and I have the facial tanner about 2" above it laying on two books.
I light it for 7 to 10 minutes
I use sink cleaner to remove the exposed layer of the UV sensitive layer of the PCB and then edge it using simple off the shelf PCB edge. Then I light the edges PCB again and dump it in sink cleaner again to remove the UV sensitive layer on the edged traces.
That is far away the cheapest and easiest method.
I agree, this is a good method. I've seen videos of an interesting technique: Instead of vibrating the box (messy) you gently lift one end, put it down and repeat, to create a wave that washes over the PCB, quickly removing the copper.
I just tried a slightly different laser printing method that worked great. I used laser printer transparency paper. After printing the circuit from eagle, I taped it to the copper with aluminum foil tape (the kind used for duct work). This held the transparency in place and allowed to evenly transfer heat across the print. I then placed the iron on it until it was too hot to touch which was about 2 minutes only moving it slightly. I let it cool and cut the tape on the edges. 100% of the laser printer ink transferred with no signs of a smudge. It was immediately ready for the ferric acid without any cleanup required.
A wildly unpredictable vibrating box of acid. What could possibly go wrong! :P
You should also consider photoetching. Far less messy than the iron-on method and faster. Print the PCB design on transparency paper, tape it to a photosensitive PCB, expose it with a desk lamp then dip the PCB in a developer bath for a few minutes then etch it as usual. I've done double sided boards that way with no issues.
There is a special paper on ebay that helps to transfer toner to PCB. It's called "toner transfer paper". It has a wax layer that peels off easily after heated to PCB. Second, toner will not adhere to any greasy spots on PCB so make sure to clean with soap and not to touch the PCB with anything. I also use to transfer toner twice, so there is a thicker layer of toner and my toner level is low and prints with some holes.
Cool - thanks for sharing!
Tarmo Saluste how well does it work?
Owen Chase In case of toner transfer, it's the best I've seen so far. You have to keep the paper and the copper very clean for it to adhere perfectly. The copper has to be smooth. It could not adhere to cracks, so the traces can be broken from some place. I sometimes add two layers of toner to the copper for better coverage. The paper peals off in a cold water very easily, just pull it off carefully and slow, so the toner wound stick to paper. Another danger is, that I have on printer where the paper likes to curl up around the heating bar. Other printers have no problem.
Tarmo Saluste ok thanks
Hahaha! That newspaper definition was hilarious, was not expecting that from a pcb etching video!
Swap the spray paint for machinist's layout dye, much thinner and will leave a finer edge when burnt away.
In vocstional school we learned to do it with special masking tape. It was a pain and gave varying results, but turned out well as long as you took your time.
I really like the laser-paint idea, but you could also try something similar with a 3d printer.
Create your eagle schematic and export as an STL or export to some format that can be converted into g-code. Place the raw and cleaned copper pad on the printbed, adjust for height change and print out a single layer print that acts as the usual toner layer.
I have yet to try this method, but after researching the toner-transfer method and realising I only have an inkjet printer, it only stands to reason that if you can coat the copper in the laser printer toner(plastic of a sort) then why not a different kind of plastic with a different kind of printer.
I do believe that polymers like the nylons and ninjaflex would serve as the best option as they bond quite well with most surfaces unlike PLA/ABS.
TL,DR: replace (toner/laser printer/reflective paper) with (filament/3d printer/raw pcb)
Everything known about Etching PCBS is listed at:
techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbetch.htm
(if I missed something, use the form at the bottom of the page to add it).
Ben you might want to look into the hybrid inkjet / toner method as it is very quick, and ultra low cost. Just print on an inkjet printer (super easy if you have a CD tray, just cut out a holder for the PCB from an old CD) and dust with laser toner before the ink dries. Then melt the toner with heat or acetone vapors and you are ready to etch! Probably the fastest, most accurate, and least used way to make small PCBs. The only down side is the size of PCB you can fit in the printer, and we have lots of documentation on how hack an inkjet to take a full sized blank.
now you're talking. Used to get PCB images in magazines, etching is the only way ; )
I have my own iron. I used to use it to iron on the edge veneer of wood panelling, I use it now to make pcbs. I found for the veneer I needed to clean the sole with acetone once in a while.
What a Clean Room!
Did you consider putting a little water in the iron and using the Steam Press option? Great show, very informative. I liked that there were several approaches and you worked through problems with each.
That hand drawn one looks awesome and super old. That's how they used to do it back in the day.
thumbs up for the new eagle 6.6.0 that puts traces over the vias and pads when exporting images.
I'm a huge technology fan. I really like your channel. Sweden
Thx for this!.. this will definitely come in handy in my our projects!!
I like UV exposure method. More steps, but simpler and very consistent results.
I've heard that method works well, though, we didn't have the tools necessary to give it a try this time.
love the pinball in the background!
heating up the etch solution speeds up the etching process. Usually use one container with hot water and a smaller container with the etching solution.
Thanks for the tip!
Nice video. When you look the glossy paper made pcb under a microscope (after you etch in the acid) you will see little holes in the copper. That`s because the laser printer build the images using little ink dots which aren`t close enough to make an even surface.
Why not just jackup your output power on your EPILOG laser cutter and etch away all the copper in the during the laser process? EPILOG shows this being down quite nicely on there website.
I'm very curious if the current EPILOG MINI 18 Laser is cable of cutting complete PCB etching in one process like this?
Maybe Ben has an older or lower power EPILOG and has to revert to only removing spray paint? I'm very curious to know. It would be so much nicer getting away totally from the etchant chemicals! Just pull the PCB out of the EPILOG rinse with rubbing alcohol or distilled water and dry with compressed air jet, done!
Apparently you can only do this with their higher end models. This laser printer isn't powerful enough to effect metals. The masking is a nice work around for making cheap PCBs though.
Have you tried using starch in the spray bottle? It fits better with the clothes iron theme.
I don't know what kind of etchant you've used, but when I was in highschool, we used a mixture of HCl and peroxide in 1:2 ratio. Of course, acid added to peroxide, not the other way around.
I wish they still sold dry transfers and tape for manual pcb making. Now I've got to get a laser printer, pcb software, iron or laminator. Might be good for complex boards and quantity, but simple quick diy pcbsThat's progress folks.
Instead of using acetone to clean up the toner from the toner transfer, after etching, you can also use steel wool. It will not damage the copper.
I just happen to find acetone quite expensive and not available at large here.
I now use carby cleaner to remove the resist after etching, 2 quick sprays and the toner is gone and the board dries in less than a minute
I will wait for 480p+ version...
TheNLSuperGames your post gave me cancer
ow no relax i dont main that :P haha
TheNLSuperGames Xano Trevisan Kothe I highly recommend using VLC Media Player. You can copy and paste any UA-cam video URL into it (Ctrl + N) and it will play at maximum quality. Someone shared this with me and it's been immensely helpful.
***** thanks Jake. Looks like a bug in UA-cam than?
***** Thanks VLC worked perfectly
I've also been thinking that a glue transfer to a clean circuit board that has no copper and then using a foil heated to the surface like the scrap bookers are doing on paper might make a pretty good board too. I definitely agree with Switch & Leaver about the laminator for better results and this might also work for the foil transfer idea too. I'm surprised that we don't find more direct to board solutions by now. How about a gel pen full of metallic paint that can be plotted and heat treated? Or low temp metallic filament for 3d printers?
I'd like to know how to make those circuit boards that are a mix between breadboards and PCB boards, you don't need to etch them, they are a matte copper colo(u)r and you need to solder them to connect everything. Also a soldering iron recommendation would be good. Something good for a cheap price.
Another UA-camr (CNLohr) uses a modified laminator instead of a iron to heat/pressure the patterns. He also makes some pretty cool glass PCB's :)
1. It would have been nice to have a closeup of the PCB's side-by-side that I could inspect myself. Along with that I would have liked to see some kind of scale/ruler that would give me an idea how fine the detail was.
2. UV.
3. Acetone is NOT a stronger alcohol. If you need to be convinced, try rubbing both on a sheet of ABS plastic. :p
Iron method is great, but I recomend to use flat iron without steam generator (or laminator) and It's usually better to heat the part that you want stick it on. So paper at the bottom, PCB at top...
Ben, you may want to get metal arms for your Replicator. They make the platform more stable. There's a guy that makes aluminum ones. The _Tested_ crew got a pair from him.
I'm really curious why you didn't include PCB milling in this video, i know it's not technically etching... but it would've ben cool to see the process of PCB milling as well... perhaps another video just for that?
I'm actually reluctant about my method of making PCBs... i'm planning on building my own mini workshop for electronic projects and PCB manufacturing is an important part of it because using pref boards isn't as clean and takes a lot more time/space/wiring. Ive done my fair share of PCBs back in university. ive tried the iron method but we only had inkjets at the time and it was just a very messy and just not consistant method. at the time our preferred method for PCB making was with light sensitive boards (also another option you could've included in your video. it's by far one of the easiest and most accurate methods ive tried. printing your circuit on transparent paper, placing that paper on the photo sensitive board, under UV for about 20 minutes, placing that board into a liquid that removes the cooked photo sensitive layer (dont remember the name of that liquid) then etching it then acetone. it was excellent. but it's an expensive method as well seeing how pricey those photo sensitive boards are.
That's why im considering buying/making a CNC machine for myself mainly to mill PCBs but also to make enclosure panels and engrave the texts on it for a clean end product.
Would love to get a feedback on that method, the pros and cons.... thank you for these awesome videos ive been binge watching them and i hope my comment doesn't fall on deaf ears.
Another version is covering the board in paint, replace the head of your 3D printer with a very sharp point and feed your pattern to it as an inverted single layer G-code and it will scrape out the paths.
I tried the laser printer method a couple of times but I used laser transparency instead no need to soak to remove the sheet.
Wouldn't it be possible to directly remove the copper from the PCB with the laser cutter instead of only removing the paint? Or would this destroy also the plastic of the PCB?
Hi Ben. Had u seen with the laser paint method people using the laser to to cut the holes on through hole parts as well? I hope you can give that a try to show us.
What kind of glossy paper did you use? The Staples brand everyone loved is no longer available, though yours seemed to turn out pretty good. I've also heard using the leftover waxy paper from label sheets works very well.
I dunno if it's been mentioned in the comments yet, but I use to use 2 to 1 mix of hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid for the etching part, far superior over ferric chloride, ferric chloride stains like crazy! if you get it on your clothes, consider them destroyed! I now get my boards made off shore, for a very low price, and they use high durable fiberglass sheets, and not that composite crap that cracks easily
Australian invention - press n peel blue.
Ben you also missed one of THE easiest mass production methods - using UV Photo Litho on pre-sensitized boards.
Best I've used in uni was Kinsten. Mind you you HAVE to use the developer
Thanks for the video! Out of curiosity, could you use the laser cutter to remove the unwanted copper directly?
It's a JUMP to conclusions mat!
I caught that Ben...
It would be nice if you could upload High-Res macro images of those PCB.
Thanks Ben
Hey, I wonder if you could use the laser mill to etch solder mask off of the mounting pads on the board... that way, you could simply dip the board in a nice professional quality solder mask material and etch off the mask on the bits of copper which need to be exposed for soldering. If you did 2 layers, one of a light color and one of a dark color, you could etch off the dark to also create text and stuff right on the boards...
Oops, posted that comment before I finished the video 😅
After trying different types of papers and surfaces to perform the transfer of the ink using a laser printer, the best results were obtained with the paper in which the stikers comes.
I've had much more success with a phototransfer method. You need a phototransfer pcb, but it's much easier and faster. Contrary to what people think, you don't need a transparent foil or a laser printer. Just use a semi translucent paper. Print on the highest quality settings. Use 2 layers, overlap them. Cure with UV, then use the exposing-chemical-thingy. Etch. To speed up the etching, put your etching bowl into another bowl with hot water. You can get a whole batch of PCBs done in under an hour.
Hey Ben big fan, can you use the CNC to make some holes or is it too thick, if not all your components are are surface mount? Also I have access to a CNC laser but the guy who owns it won't let me paint the coper and put it in the machine because of the fumes can I do it without the paint and just etch off the coper with the laser?
Also, dont scrub your PCB in feric oxide, just let the PCB float on surface of the fluid. It's quick and not messy at all...
The laser method was kind of interesting... I wonder how much powerful the laser need to be
Great Video! I think if you use the pen on the board after you remove the paper you could get rid of hatching. So that would be a combination of methods. :)
Also I think its worth mentioning UV light (sunlight or a sunlamp) helps the echant solution.
If I ever start doing stuff like this, a laser cutter seems like somthing I would want to get.
I like the DIY laser printer heat transfer - I can do that at home. But I don't think I've seen any episode on adding a solder mask to any pcb's. What's the easy way to do that?
Care to try using an Ink Jet to print etch resist directly onto the copper. I've yet to try it myself but there's quite a bit of chatter about this online.
I like to see the solder mask attempt if you guys are up for it!
Great tips! For your video, I finally made my own PCB!
I just want to ask you something. What spray did you use on laser process?
What about using powder coat on your pcb, before running the laser?
The toner/iron thing is how i did it in high school ha. I used an aquarium bubbler in the etch to agitate it though
For laser painting would plotting artwork as a vector graphic rather than printing as a raster avoid the aliasing issue with tracks and faint traces left in etched areas?
This dude is stone cold tripping! Ergo... I SUBSCRIBE!
You should do a resolution test with the laserprinter PCBs. Anyways, awesome project!
Can the iron on method work with brass plates by chance? I know this says copper but looking to make filigree patterns in brass plates.
Oh I see now, so its a news...paper. Thats adorable :D
What about putting a sharpie in the CNC? When I was first trying out my CNC, I put a mini-sharpie where the router goes, and it drew a nice picture.
hey ben
i think you can also use your 3d printer to make high quality pcb by growing layers of tracks of height - 500 microns on a copper clad sheet and then etch it
before sticking the toner transfer to the copper put the board in the etching liquid for 2 to 4 min or just to make it loos the copper shine the toner is holding way better to the board, of curse wash en dry the board after the acid.
I'm finding that laser photo paper is kinda hard to find, but I have no problem finding laserjet glossy brochure or presentation paper. Is that thick enough for the transferring or will only photo paper do?
It doesn't work well with inkjet iirc, as the etchant etches it away. You can get laser printrs for £30
+Emil Carr WHAT! HERE THEY ARE 600$
I wonder if you could just print onto a PCB using printers that print on CDs.... that would be an interesting test.
the paper transfer method is the best way to do home made PCB's!
on one of my last project i used an atmega88 and had no problems at all
with the small distances between the traces.
i'am not talking pdip it was a 32 MLF package
the main thing why it did not came out great in the video..
1, the copper need's to be rough.. that the melted toner can stick to it..
2, the underground when ironing need's to be a hard surface
3, it was possibly the wrong paper! the right paper comes down with out water! :)
but that laser machine... wow! wants to have one :)
I wonder i that pice of technic can laser away the copper direcly??!!
or I wonder what happend if you use the photoresist basis material with out painting
it first..
We all want a Super Portable "Vectrex machine" . Can you do that for us Mr. Ben??? ;)
Is it possible to modify a 3D printer to put a PCB image on the copper for etching and then peel of the plastic?
Use Mimaki or Roland UV any surface printers and results will be out of this world. I wish they were cheap. Thanks
Instead of glossy paper, use vinyl foil, such as Oracal 641 or similar. It gives significantly better (darker and more accurate) toner transfers and no paper residue to scrape off.
Nice - we've been getting a lot of great tips form viewers on this one!
that dude working with ben is like a parent watching their kid do some wacky experiment
great video
What is that dot matrix display in the Tech Timeout (On the pinball machine). Looks ideal for one of my projects.
when etching let the pcb float on the etchant copper side down, you will see when the board is etched, have to be carefull because air bubless are easilly trapped under the board so you need to dip the board from the edge
Ben, when are you going to make IC's from scratch? I want to make my own gaming computer from scratch. Tetris for the win.
Trololol
Nice video, now try drilling holes and plating them with copper to create double sided PCB. ;)
What about photo resist? I've used that - works great; with no Ironing! :D Thanks for the video!
Hi! I'm studying engineering and I would like, if it is not a problem to you recommend me a software to design my own pcbs, please
What happened to the good old light box, developer, etch, tin method?
That method works great for making large quantities. Another similar method that works good for large quantities is the screen print method. However, both of these methods require special chemicals and films and take a while to complete. And going through that whole process for a single board that you might not even know is designed correctly is a bit much for most people.
For a one-off type of board, nothing beats printing on your laser printer and just ironing it on. Ben's video really doesn't do the method justice since he spent way too much time ironing and spraying the board. Just iron once, soak, and wipe away the remnants of the paper.
mtslyh
Making good PCB stopping me from doing any electronics project :/ I've tried few dirty methods to do it, didn't liked them. Thinking about small CNC engraver.
Are there any methods using inkjet printers? Laser Printers are becoming more scarce and expensive.
Is it safe to look at the white light reflecting from the laser cutter without glasses?
I think the cover filters the harmful wavelengths.
How is it still only 240p, 12 hours after you've uploaded it?
I've head ben heck make two references to gold panning. Should go on a trip.
Dilbert does exist… great work...
I don't know if anyone had asked if you tried it, but why not try fingernail polish to coat the boards. holds hard and I know a lot of people who use it while etching metal
hack a laser printer to print directly onto pcb?
what's the point of doing the copper fill using the laser printer?
Isn't it more easy to just include it in the design and print it in the photo paper with the actual circuit?
I am facing problems using eagle for making single layer PCBs.