Hey guys! I wanted to say that I know this is a very long video, but there was just no way to make this video on all of the hero talents without it being long lol. I like making a long video every now and then, and I hope you guys like the switch up and variety of content. The idea is that you can listen to this as a podcast while driving/playing/working, OR use the chapters to navigate to what you want to hear about! By the way, thank you for already being super nice about any disagreements. We will likely have at least some different opinions, and you guys are super chill and nice about letting me know why you may disagree! You rock!
I really like where as druid you can play keeper of the grove when you’re not yet comfortable healing certain fights and then switch over to wildstalker when you’ve gotten more comfortable with the fights.
my mains for S1 are both disc and MW so quite happy they're fun to play, i think oracle disc is treated as meh by the community as voidweaver is so thematic and looks badass when you burst, oracle is just a bit of a lame duck when it comes to choosing what hero talents to play
It's a fun tier list, but it also shines a lot of light on what the different hero talents actually do. Very useful for those of us with limited time on beta. Thanks a lot 😀 Was thinking about maining MW or Rsham, but gotta consider my all time main disc as well. Choices!
so i tuned in to just watch your takes on the preservation hero talents, but i feel you are really underselling chronowarden, specifically chrono flame. i agree on a surface level its pretty lackluster, but when you pair it with stasis, leaping flames and the new talents it has some serious skill ceiling combo potential. i guess that is basically all of preservation though
Yeah I do agree with you on those points, but normally there are much better stasis choices. It can pack a punch though for sure, and can rack up some nice tank healing in a pinch
Is it worth mentioning that for Herald of the Sun, you use the awakened talent that procs wings and therefore procs your dawnlights more often than the 2 min cd you mentioned at the start of the Herald of the Sun.
Came here thinking it will help me decide if I should main Monk, Disc or Evoker. Now I want to main all 3 😅 They all seem super fun. My only concern is that Celestial Conduit might just give very similar experience as Sheiluns gift and would be using it in similar situations, but i guess its still op.
They all look super fun! I can't recommend monk enough though(This is me acting like im not biased, but let's be real lol) but evoker also looks incredibly fun!
I've been a r-druid for YEARS and only dabbled in a 2nd class during DF (Evoker). I think your summation is spot on... the Flameshaper Evoker is just... unreal fun to play. Also doesn't help that I feel r-druid is a bit undertuned at the moment...
love the list and im definitley gonna play MW like every patch :D regarding your point about chiji, yes it belongs to enveloping. but chiji is a crane and we spam a lot of spinning CRANE kick and the sck proccs are called dance of chiji. i think thematically chiji belongs to that more than it belongs to enveloping. and we spam so much sck in m+, its probably gonna pop a lot. in terms of raids completely agree. having to decide between RJW and mist wrap is meh,. it seems like they want us to make the choice if we are gonna be sooming or fistweaving. which is something i dont like that much. right now this is solely good for m+ and compelte RNG and low impact in raid.
I'm worried that voidweaver will get boring. As you said, disc already has a rotation for the most part. Now they get a window if pretty much only casting one spell. Which is fine at first because of how cool it looks and how effective it is. But that wears off for me.
Yeah it's a big reason why I didn't like it in s3/4, but having the right aspect makes it a bit more enjoyable at least. It's hard to explain, but somehow casting the same spells feels different? Lol
I disagree with your take on Chronowarden. It adds a complexity to that allows a healer to showcase their awareness and skills. It’s similar to how Blood DKs heal. We have a couple added advantage though. We can echo it so similar to how you would with revision. So that’s a possible 30% damage done reverted back into healing and even more if you use stasis. You can create some crazy combo and maybe revert anywhere from 15-60% damage done in the last 5 sec back into healing. That added complexity or game in a game make a fun and role fun for me. It may be an acquired taste though.
I do agree that it can be very fun, however it won't do as much bonus healing as you're thinking. It's capped at a certain amount of healing. Also I do like how you related it to bdk because I hadn't thought about that before, but as a tank it's a lot easier to predict incoming damage that you will take due to pull size and cast, but it's a lot harder as a healer to predict damage on the other party members, you know? But like you said, I'm sure with more time (pun intended) it will grow on more people! I just was pretty disappointed in all my testing personally
Can't wait for beta to be back up. I just played around with the calculator for for Oracle Holy priest and my lord.. skipping Miraculous Recovery(better PW: Life) for Waste no Time and playing short premonition with Heal talents looks absolutely ridiculous and fun, especially once you get 4 tier.
I think Chronowarden for Pres, although mainly passive, is pretty neat/fun, IF you enjoy min maxing your combos. That is what makes evoker fun to me imo, but everyone definition of fun is different. Chromo flame repeating 15% healing and damage within the last 5 seconds seems nuts. Imagine, for damage, you have reversion on all your allies to give you 2 free procs of instant cast Chromo flames, you face the trash pack and tip the scales fire breath, which shoots out up to 3 chronoflames, shoot out an additional 5 Chromo flames, then deep breath. The amount of damage seems insane if played right. (that is - if Chromo flame records the damage after it's already been dealt, I believe it does but not 100% positive) Then you got a blink that gives you a 20 DR orrrrrr, you can elect to go mote of accerlation and give those slow moving classes 20% increased speed for 30 seconds (that's bonkers!!). For healing, 1) can you imagine having TA, stage one dream breath, and spirit bloom (with its hot) in stasis - then when a major damage event happens you release, you fire breath max value with tip the scales, launch 5 Chromo flames at your allies and it repeats that last 5 secs of healing? Theres hundred of more combos you could do too, depending on what type of healing is needed. Chronowarden is passive but adds another layer of min/maxing which is what Pres evoker already excels at. Super fun imo. THAT being said, I'm still more of a fan of flameshaper because who doesn't want another ACTIVE spell that can further help you min/max and adds a massive boost to spot/burst healing on the spot? Evoker is eating well in TWW, the animations look great, the tier set looks best of the best (if only we could see all the time), and both hero trees look promising!! Alsoooo love your list, lots of great info n thoughts!! The amount of time you've invested in testing in each healing spec in beta and all the hero talents associated with them, is bonkers and awesome. So thank you!
Really great video! Like always! Loved the length! Perfect for my workout session! Delighted to hear you play paper mtg. I would love to see you do a deck tech video for your favourite deck. Idk if your audience would be into that. But I would watch the hell out of it. Maybe like a patreon/YT member exclusive? You strike me as a GU/x midrange creature combo type thing. Hahaha. Or maybe some kind of kind stompy! Definitely giving green vibes. I have a lot of fun playing a cEDH grixis wizard combo and my personal favourite that I bring to FNM Windgrace lands/elemental deck. It can either be an annnoying self-mill GB lands combo (wasteland-asuza tech included in case I want to be evil Lmao) shenanigans or a rampy midrange creature based.
My mtgo username was literally "GreenGuy" LOL you read me like a book! I play modern, and used to play birthing pod > value town > yawgmoth!!! It's insane how much you're onto me lol. I've considered making a second channel just for mtg, but idk I already work until like 10 pm most nights lol. Maybe one day for fun! I also have a wind grace deck! It just won every time I played it at my LGS though so I haven't even opened it's box in like 1.5 years. Also dang dude, an hour workout? My gamer bod needs to get on your level lol.
@@LBNinja7 hahahhaha we mistweavers share a special connection that transcends digital space, I’m tapped into the inner chi that unites all life. :P I think your YT personality would make for some great mtg content. But a whole other second channel seems like a ton of work, especially considering your real-life obligations. I know that mtg stuff on the main channel would mess with your metrics. Either way I’ll watch whatever you post, just don’t burn out! I think you can paywall it and see how it does with your core audience and maybe go from there? Idk but I think you would make great mtg content. As far as workouts go… I usually do a warm up and 3 sets of the exercise. With a 2-3 min rest between sets. So I usually spend about 12-15 mins per exercise. By the time you’ve done 4 exercises it’s been an hour. Sometimes I do 6 exercises and only 2 sets. Sometimes I do 6 exercises and just stay longer. :P Jeff Nippard has an excellent video about “minimalist” gains. And you can get about 2/3 of total “potential gains” with one set pushed to failure!
I do!! I wasn't able to play the prerelease but have a friend that is part of a big group that all want me to start coming out to standard! I haven't had the time to go to paper magic ever since swapping g to youtube, but really miss that part of my life!
@@LBNinja7 yeah I’ve only played the pre release for Lost Caverns in the last several years (4 kids under 7) so I’ve mostly played Arena a lot and some Commander games. I do miss going to FNM and just hanging out having fun playing paper magic too.
5% more mana is not fun, it should not be needed at all... monks just sipping some thee while pumping out heals 5% more mana as a hero talent is so lame.
Lol I do agree and you have me cracking up about monks. I was just saying that any steps in the direction of "mana won't hold you back" are good steps, no matter how small!
lol so accurate on grove keeper. That tree alone and the fact there's nothing really interesting added to R-druid caused me to switch to warlock after playing the last 3 expansion strictly as a R druid.
Yeah I mean that honestly is a fair take, but with totemic you interact with your totems with chain heals and cloudburst as opposed to druids just setting and forgetting, you know?
Doing the ranking by fun is such a cool twist on the general powerlevel tier lists, really appreciate it. I also like the honest comments about stuff like Archon Holy Priest. Cause as someone who has recently returned and hasn't played priest in like 10 years, while being a negative point for you. For me having a hero talent that doesn't add too much to the base kit of Priest is quite attractive to me.
Thank you so much! Although I do plan on making a semi power ranking, I really try to shake it up with my vids and make what I think is more enjoyable! And I do agree with you! If it's not broke, don't fix it!
Yeah it is more powerful than I thought it would be, but you're right, it's all subjective and I'm a simp for some chain healing totems lol. I just tried not to speak too much about what's more powerful because I know it's all subject to changes and balances still!
@@LBNinja7 Somehow I must've played Rehgar are 3 times I my in this game, mostly because of how in love I am with Auriel's and Whitemane's kits. Gotta give this guy a try.
And I liked totemic shaman more than Farseer. I like the passive healing builds better in general like the one with the riptides and healing stream totem. But... Did they fix the healing rain placement?
@@LBNinja7 Nice! Stopped playing Mistweaver (my main in legion) because of the fistweaving playstyle. I think am going to pick mistweaver as my main again for TWW :)
Being real. We will likely see nerfs to Hpally. I for one expect them to not completely obliterate the spec like they did after S2, where it was unplayable for almost 1 year straight.
True... sadly hpriest has a viable but boring hero talent tree (archon) and a bad designed one which needs alot of buffs (oracle) to compare to the other tree. Sadly I hoped for an flying archon form which replaces apho... and a bit more visual upgrade and gameplay change but sadly we got nothing...
Hey guys! I wanted to say that I know this is a very long video, but there was just no way to make this video on all of the hero talents without it being long lol.
I like making a long video every now and then, and I hope you guys like the switch up and variety of content.
The idea is that you can listen to this as a podcast while driving/playing/working, OR use the chapters to navigate to what you want to hear about!
By the way, thank you for already being super nice about any disagreements. We will likely have at least some different opinions, and you guys are super chill and nice about letting me know why you may disagree! You rock!
I really like where as druid you can play keeper of the grove when you’re not yet comfortable healing certain fights and then switch over to wildstalker when you’ve gotten more comfortable with the fights.
100
I also came up with a wild stalker meme build that doesn't care about the trees or cat weaving. I just need more testing
Like having both playstyles. But i do with the explosions would be more showy.
Putting all Disc and Mistweaver specs into Very Fun and A Blast? This man has great taste.
I'm a cultured gamer for sure
my mains for S1 are both disc and MW so quite happy they're fun to play, i think oracle disc is treated as meh by the community as voidweaver is so thematic and looks badass when you burst, oracle is just a bit of a lame duck when it comes to choosing what hero talents to play
It's a fun tier list, but it also shines a lot of light on what the different hero talents actually do. Very useful for those of us with limited time on beta. Thanks a lot 😀
Was thinking about maining MW or Rsham, but gotta consider my all time main disc as well. Choices!
I'm so glad!! I know it's longer but I know the beta isn't for everyone so going more in depth seemed like the right choice!
so i tuned in to just watch your takes on the preservation hero talents, but i feel you are really underselling chronowarden, specifically chrono flame. i agree on a surface level its pretty lackluster, but when you pair it with stasis, leaping flames and the new talents it has some serious skill ceiling combo potential. i guess that is basically all of preservation though
Yeah I do agree with you on those points, but normally there are much better stasis choices. It can pack a punch though for sure, and can rack up some nice tank healing in a pinch
Great vid LB, thank you for the hard work!
Is it worth mentioning that for Herald of the Sun, you use the awakened talent that procs wings and therefore procs your dawnlights more often than the 2 min cd you mentioned at the start of the Herald of the Sun.
Yes it is! There are a few talking points I edited out and I just felt that one was a tad redundant!
Thanks for the detailed video, that's exactly what I've been looking for !
Came here thinking it will help me decide if I should main Monk, Disc or Evoker. Now I want to main all 3 😅
They all seem super fun. My only concern is that Celestial Conduit might just give very similar experience as Sheiluns gift and would be using it in similar situations, but i guess its still op.
They all look super fun! I can't recommend monk enough though(This is me acting like im not biased, but let's be real lol) but evoker also looks incredibly fun!
As a resto shaman main for the past 5 years, I agree with your placement for totemic and farseer
Appreciate it!
I've been a r-druid for YEARS and only dabbled in a 2nd class during DF (Evoker). I think your summation is spot on... the Flameshaper Evoker is just... unreal fun to play. Also doesn't help that I feel r-druid is a bit undertuned at the moment...
Oh great algorithm, bless LB with your amazing grace ! nice vid, good insights to the hero-classes as always :-)
Lol thank you for the comment!
Also praise be to Algorithm!
Awesome video! One thing to note: Suns Avatar currently also procs from awakening. So you have it much more often then every 2min.
glad you mentioned the chainheal from hots
Love that game and the totem in it is so much fun!
love the list and im definitley gonna play MW like every patch :D
regarding your point about chiji, yes it belongs to enveloping. but chiji is a crane and we spam a lot of spinning CRANE kick and the sck proccs are called dance of chiji. i think thematically chiji belongs to that more than it belongs to enveloping.
and we spam so much sck in m+, its probably gonna pop a lot. in terms of raids completely agree. having to decide between RJW and mist wrap is meh,. it seems like they want us to make the choice if we are gonna be sooming or fistweaving. which is something i dont like that much. right now this is solely good for m+ and compelte RNG and low impact in raid.
I hate how I didn't make the connection of spinning CRANE kick lol! But I do just wish instead of RJW they would've made it RSK or envm at least!
I'm worried that voidweaver will get boring. As you said, disc already has a rotation for the most part. Now they get a window if pretty much only casting one spell. Which is fine at first because of how cool it looks and how effective it is. But that wears off for me.
Yeah it's a big reason why I didn't like it in s3/4, but having the right aspect makes it a bit more enjoyable at least. It's hard to explain, but somehow casting the same spells feels different? Lol
I disagree with your take on Chronowarden. It adds a complexity to that allows a healer to showcase their awareness and skills. It’s similar to how Blood DKs heal. We have a couple added advantage though. We can echo it so similar to how you would with revision. So that’s a possible 30% damage done reverted back into healing and even more if you use stasis. You can create some crazy combo and maybe revert anywhere from 15-60% damage done in the last 5 sec back into healing. That added complexity or game in a game make a fun and role fun for me. It may be an acquired taste though.
I do agree that it can be very fun, however it won't do as much bonus healing as you're thinking. It's capped at a certain amount of healing. Also I do like how you related it to bdk because I hadn't thought about that before, but as a tank it's a lot easier to predict incoming damage that you will take due to pull size and cast, but it's a lot harder as a healer to predict damage on the other party members, you know?
But like you said, I'm sure with more time (pun intended) it will grow on more people! I just was pretty disappointed in all my testing personally
Can't wait for beta to be back up.
I just played around with the calculator for for Oracle Holy priest and my lord.. skipping Miraculous Recovery(better PW: Life) for Waste no Time and playing short premonition with Heal talents looks absolutely ridiculous and fun, especially once you get 4 tier.
I think Chronowarden for Pres, although mainly passive, is pretty neat/fun, IF you enjoy min maxing your combos. That is what makes evoker fun to me imo, but everyone definition of fun is different.
Chromo flame repeating 15% healing and damage within the last 5 seconds seems nuts.
Imagine, for damage, you have reversion on all your allies to give you 2 free procs of instant cast Chromo flames, you face the trash pack and tip the scales fire breath, which shoots out up to 3 chronoflames, shoot out an additional 5 Chromo flames, then deep breath. The amount of damage seems insane if played right. (that is - if Chromo flame records the damage after it's already been dealt, I believe it does but not 100% positive)
Then you got a blink that gives you a 20 DR orrrrrr, you can elect to go mote of accerlation and give those slow moving classes 20% increased speed for 30 seconds (that's bonkers!!).
For healing, 1) can you imagine having TA, stage one dream breath, and spirit bloom (with its hot) in stasis - then when a major damage event happens you release, you fire breath max value with tip the scales, launch 5 Chromo flames at your allies and it repeats that last 5 secs of healing? Theres hundred of more combos you could do too, depending on what type of healing is needed.
Chronowarden is passive but adds another layer of min/maxing which is what Pres evoker already excels at. Super fun imo.
THAT being said, I'm still more of a fan of flameshaper because who doesn't want another ACTIVE spell that can further help you min/max and adds a massive boost to spot/burst healing on the spot?
Evoker is eating well in TWW, the animations look great, the tier set looks best of the best (if only we could see all the time), and both hero trees look promising!!
Alsoooo love your list, lots of great info n thoughts!! The amount of time you've invested in testing in each healing spec in beta and all the hero talents associated with them, is bonkers and awesome. So thank you!
Really great video! Like always! Loved the length! Perfect for my workout session!
Delighted to hear you play paper mtg. I would love to see you do a deck tech video for your favourite deck. Idk if your audience would be into that. But I would watch the hell out of it. Maybe like a patreon/YT member exclusive?
You strike me as a GU/x midrange creature combo type thing. Hahaha. Or maybe some kind of kind stompy! Definitely giving green vibes.
I have a lot of fun playing a cEDH grixis wizard combo and my personal favourite that I bring to FNM Windgrace lands/elemental deck.
It can either be an annnoying self-mill GB lands combo (wasteland-asuza tech included in case I want to be evil Lmao) shenanigans or a rampy midrange creature based.
My mtgo username was literally "GreenGuy" LOL you read me like a book! I play modern, and used to play birthing pod > value town > yawgmoth!!! It's insane how much you're onto me lol.
I've considered making a second channel just for mtg, but idk I already work until like 10 pm most nights lol. Maybe one day for fun!
I also have a wind grace deck! It just won every time I played it at my LGS though so I haven't even opened it's box in like 1.5 years.
Also dang dude, an hour workout? My gamer bod needs to get on your level lol.
@@LBNinja7 hahahhaha we mistweavers share a special connection that transcends digital space, I’m tapped into the inner chi that unites all life. :P
I think your YT personality would make for some great mtg content. But a whole other second channel seems like a ton of work, especially considering your real-life obligations. I know that mtg stuff on the main channel would mess with your metrics. Either way I’ll watch whatever you post, just don’t burn out! I think you can paywall it and see how it does with your core audience and maybe go from there? Idk but I think you would make great mtg content.
As far as workouts go… I usually do a warm up and 3 sets of the exercise. With a 2-3 min rest between sets. So I usually spend about 12-15 mins per exercise. By the time you’ve done 4 exercises it’s been an hour. Sometimes I do 6 exercises and only 2 sets. Sometimes I do 6 exercises and just stay longer. :P
Jeff Nippard has an excellent video about “minimalist” gains. And you can get about 2/3 of total “potential gains” with one set pushed to failure!
Incredible, thank you!
Oh wow this was an hour!? Def didn’t feel like it at all!
This is honestly the best compliment you could give! I appreciate it and you so much!!
I main evoker and look forward to the hero talents, I enjoy preservation and augmentation. Really looking forward to the flameshaper game play.
You play MtG too?!?!? Heck yeah! Side note: Bloomburrow is awesome and I hope the new standard is more fun than the last year
I do!! I wasn't able to play the prerelease but have a friend that is part of a big group that all want me to start coming out to standard! I haven't had the time to go to paper magic ever since swapping g to youtube, but really miss that part of my life!
@@LBNinja7 yeah I’ve only played the pre release for Lost Caverns in the last several years (4 kids under 7) so I’ve mostly played Arena a lot and some Commander games. I do miss going to FNM and just hanging out having fun playing paper magic too.
5% more mana is not fun, it should not be needed at all... monks just sipping some thee while pumping out heals 5% more mana as a hero talent is so lame.
Lol I do agree and you have me cracking up about monks. I was just saying that any steps in the direction of "mana won't hold you back" are good steps, no matter how small!
Prevoker is the only toon I've even geared this season so I hope it's fun lol. (This week I'm gonna work on rsham, hpal, and monk though)
It SHAPING out to be a real... FLAME?
Idk I shouldn't force puns, but really it is looking to be a blast next tier!
@@LBNinja7 lol it's fire 🔥
lol so accurate on grove keeper. That tree alone and the fact there's nothing really interesting added to R-druid caused me to switch to warlock after playing the last 3 expansion strictly as a R druid.
weird to see totemic rsham being on A tier while its the same snoozefest(totems-pets) as druid with their treants- pets.
Yeah I mean that honestly is a fair take, but with totemic you interact with your totems with chain heals and cloudburst as opposed to druids just setting and forgetting, you know?
@@LBNinja7 cloudburst, lol
Think the word you were looking for was resistance
Indeed it was!
Doing the ranking by fun is such a cool twist on the general powerlevel tier lists, really appreciate it.
I also like the honest comments about stuff like Archon Holy Priest. Cause as someone who has recently returned and hasn't played priest in like 10 years, while being a negative point for you. For me having a hero talent that doesn't add too much to the base kit of Priest is quite attractive to me.
Thank you so much! Although I do plan on making a semi power ranking, I really try to shake it up with my vids and make what I think is more enjoyable!
And I do agree with you! If it's not broke, don't fix it!
Nice! I've been waiting for this video
funny. Some of the top shamans saying farseer is better and more enjoyable than totemic for m+. It's all subjective
Farseer is not better, but whether Farseer is more fun or not is subjective yea
Yeah it is more powerful than I thought it would be, but you're right, it's all subjective and I'm a simp for some chain healing totems lol. I just tried not to speak too much about what's more powerful because I know it's all subject to changes and balances still!
having to spam that ground targeted crap would be enough to make me wanna play a different class, no matter how powerful rshaman is
SHAMMY'S BACK ON TOP BABYYYYYY LESGOOOO
I had a great time with both Farseer and Totemic. Different playstyle. I did m+ up to 8 keys
HotS mentioned!
@@LBNinja7 Somehow I must've played Rehgar are 3 times I my in this game, mostly because of how in love I am with Auriel's and Whitemane's kits.
Gotta give this guy a try.
I want Ashen Hallow back, Holy Paladin has not been fun since we lost it
And I liked totemic shaman more than Farseer. I like the passive healing builds better in general like the one with the riptides and healing stream totem. But... Did they fix the healing rain placement?
Will mistweaving (casting SooM and EM vivify) be a valid option in raiding or will it be fistweaving only?
At the moment with the tier set and hero talent tree buffing enveloping mist, tear of morning is a front runner
@@LBNinja7 Nice! Stopped playing Mistweaver (my main in legion) because of the fistweaving playstyle. I think am going to pick mistweaver as my main again for TWW :)
Being real. We will likely see nerfs to Hpally.
I for one expect them to not completely obliterate the spec like they did after S2, where it was unplayable for almost 1 year straight.
but in herald of the sun paladin cant u go wing proc talent or did they remove that?
You can!
@@LBNinja7 shouldnt that make the wing ish stuf more better?
SHAMAN LOOK WILD
True... sadly hpriest has a viable but boring hero talent tree (archon) and a bad designed one which needs alot of buffs (oracle) to compare to the other tree. Sadly I hoped for an flying archon form which replaces apho... and a bit more visual upgrade and gameplay change but sadly we got nothing...
lets crossreference with the performance data and then we have main ready to be picked
I wish hpala had denounce in pve. It PUMPS in pvp
Keeper of the grove is undertuned and boring.