Several people have pointed out that I didn't address increased flask effect in this video. That was quite the oversight... In any case, I just tested it and can confirm that flask effect _does_ scale the 25% stat on the flask. With 20% increased flask effect, Progenesis was causing me to lose 490 life (70%) upfront and 210 life (30%) over time.
Instant subscription. First video of yours I’ve watched and it tickles that “I love to learn” side of my poe brain. Amazing content. All the information in a clear and concise manner.
It also worth noting that scaling flask effect has increasing returns with this flask, I have a setup with almost maximum possible flask effect, 203%, which pushes me above 75% total life loss redirection, which is then easily counteracted with life recoup On the other hand of the mentioned skills which are not affected by Progenesis, Forbidden Rite is affected, which can be used to ramp excess recoup into a stable source of recovery even greater.
I tested this on a pathfinder with 122% increased flask effect and can confirm that it does work. Unfortunately I can also confirm that you are right. the effect is multiplicative with Petrified Blood.
I was waiting for that info, thanks! I hoped that the flask would stack additively with Petrified Blood, but of course it doesn't. While Progenesis doesn't interact with ward, it could in theory still the useful on wardloop builds for defensive purposes. As these builds have crazy life recovery, it essentially increases your max hit by 33% of your life total. So a 2k ward 3k life 2k mana setup would have a max hit of 8k instead of 7k. It's on an Amethyst base though, which lowers the damage taken from Forbidden Rite.
Yeah, Petrified Blood being both (a) multiplicative and (b) applied second is pretty much worst-case scenario for the combo (aside from a scenario where only the greater value applies or something). Unfortunate! I too was hoping they would be additive, but it was too good to be true. And yeah, I suppose even in that scenario you described with ward-loop, it's still not bad. It's less than 50% efficiency compared to a life-only build, but hey, 1K HP is 1K HP.
Its Very nice hear you talking, I dont know english fully, but the way you talk is very clear and explanable... Nice video, new follow for sure ! (Btw you wold do a very nice teatcher)
Cool. Thanks for this. I just bought this flask yesterday, and was considering dropping Arctic armor for pb and grabbing pain attunement. This pretty much settles that idea.
You mentioned you would try a build with Dissolution and PB. Here's some insane tech: Eternal Youth, Dissolution, and PB. Since you never lose life from taking damage (thanks fro Dissolution), you never stop recharging ES. Stack recharge rate from jewels and you have a huge amount of permanent life recharge. How best to utilise it? How about Dark Pact, which is a sacrifice not a damage taken! The only downside is that you have to play with Dissolution which can be annoying. Worth mentioning that I didn't discover this tech. I learned about it from Lance who possibly learned about it from someone else.
I've heard of this Eternal Youth tech. It's definitely a strong interaction. I think the build I'd want to do with it would not need that much recovery. Just the overleech with Vaal Pact would be more than enough. As for Dissolution being annoying, that's why I think it pairs best with a build that uses block/spell block (or Wind Dancer/Acrobatics). Something to space out incoming damage enough to mitigate the reservation.
Is there any chance you have time to explain Trinity Support? Love your videos, very well structured and informative and I seem to not understand Trinity fully yet. Thank you for all your time making these videos, please keep them going :D
The PB expert is back! Thanks for the great explanation of how this flask works! I love how accurate PoE is with it's wording in many cases. Not many games achieve that level of detail by just looking at words.
I'm not very savvy with understanding these kind of mechanics, earlier in the video you mentioned how having a secondary health pool would make the flask less efficient, do you mean that having lets say, 3200 life and around 600 es would make the flask mitigate less damage than just having 3200 life? I've been thinking about making a permanent progenesis setup for my arakaali build to increase its large hit tankiness (dont want to build as squishy as other squire builds), but I'd have around 250-600 ES leftover from some gear that I thought would just be nice situational extra hit points, but now I'm not sure. Awesome video btw!
It's fine to have extra ES. It's just that any damage dealt to the ES specifically won't be "reduced" by the flask. Only when your life itself is being damaged will the flask do anything. It's less "efficient" because the flask only boosts the effective HP from life, not from ES. That doesn't mean you should avoid ES on your build just because of the flask, though!
Yeah I went the blood magic route too early and was hurting. Having petrified blood and the vaal pact hindered me in that my life was much lower due to using skills and also certain auras can't be used in conjunction with petrified blood.
So basically, if you're life based, and have at least 25% life recoup, then the flask pretty much reads "you take 25% less damage from hits during flask effect"
Yeah, I've got some more builds to test and hopefully show off this league. Currently doing a Bloodseeker build and will probably make a video whenever I feel it's ready. I also wrote most of the script for an ailment mechanics video months ago but never finished it. I will though! And yes, flask effect does work exactly how you would expect. I just pinned a comment addressing this.
Dear sir, in this topic u didn't say anything about witch forbidden ascendancy Nine Lives. I cant figure out how it will work with the flask and jewel?
Ah yes, Recoup probably deserved a mention as well. Recoup is great with Petrified Blood and/or Progenesis because the recovery from Recoup can counteract the life loss over time. Recoup's recovery is based on damage taken, not life lost. This means Progenesis won't reduce the amount of recovery you get from Recoup. So, assuming you have no modifiers to recovery rate, "25% of damage taken recouped as life" should totally counteract the life loss over time from Progenesis. As for Nine Lives specifically, it just grants Recoup and also makes the Recoup happen faster. There's no special interaction there beyond the natural synergy between Recoup and Progenesis.
Wardloop builds took a massive hit with the removal of survival secrets, which counteracted the huge downside of Olroth's Resolve of 70% less ward during flask effect. I wanted to play it again this league, but when I remove Survival Secrets from my character in standard, I now take some life damage due to my ward pool being reduced. Since the build has a lot of recoup on it, do you think this flask could help mitigate that loss? The reason I ask is because I can't afford one in standard to test it myself, so would really appreciate your thoughts on this.
No, it just means the flask consumes fewer charges, and it's the same number every time. So if the flask normally consumes 30 charges on use, 10% reduced charges per use means it consumes 27.
does the hit stacks? like if i take 5000dmg in hits, 10 times in the same sec, the initial hit i heal up instant, from leech/loh and so on, does that mean it will leavea 12.500 degen debuff on me, with no way to regen back if all mobs are dead?(unless sick amount of regen)
Yes, that is correct. A good way to counteract this would be life recoup. 25% should completely nullify the degen, assuming you have no modifiers to life recovery rate.
If you're only looking at total life lost, yes. But if you're trying to minimize spike damage (which seems to be the main point of PB/Progenesis), then you'd want to use both.
It doesn't break ward-loop builds; it just doesn't synergize with them nearly as well as pure life-based builds, since a relatively small proportion of HP is in the form of life. It can still be used to increase effective HP, but I don't know if it's worth it vs. other flask options.
@@sergeantminor256 I think it'll be close, at least to make up for the nerfs to survivability. I was thinking something like: 2600 hp 1.1k ward (budget ehp values for wardloop in 3.20) so it'd be able to take a max amount of final damage of 2600*1.25+1100= 4350 final damage Compared to last league where we had around 2600 hp and 1.6k ward meaning 4200 max final damage taken from a hit If the math above is correct than it should fix the huge survivability nerf it got.
soooo... tldr, dissolution builds just got a buff. as did pet blood. and, as a consequence, relic of the pact. also,,, interesting that pet blood applies AFTER the flask. I would have expected the other way round. however that makes sense, because this is usually worse for players. unless they are running the pet blood quality that increases the prevented % but increases % lost of damage prevented.
I too was expecting it to apply before and not after, but the numbers didn't work out that way. PB + Dissolution + Progenesis has got to be a pretty crazy build, right? I was thinking of trying an Acrobatics Raider with two Replica Last Resorts and Bloodthirst support, maybe use Forbidden Flesh/Flame to get Pathfinder's flask charge generation...
@@sergeantminor256 Rage Vortex gamers, are using this combo to juice Voidforge with Bloodthirst. Life regen can go to Kaom's spirit, and eternal youth covers Rite of Ruin degen. Super potent, even if Zerker lacks the avoid mechanics that would lend itself to a Dissolution playstyle.
Several people have pointed out that I didn't address increased flask effect in this video. That was quite the oversight... In any case, I just tested it and can confirm that flask effect _does_ scale the 25% stat on the flask. With 20% increased flask effect, Progenesis was causing me to lose 490 life (70%) upfront and 210 life (30%) over time.
Instant subscription. First video of yours I’ve watched and it tickles that “I love to learn” side of my poe brain. Amazing content. All the information in a clear and concise manner.
Holy shit.
It also worth noting that scaling flask effect has increasing returns with this flask, I have a setup with almost maximum possible flask effect, 203%, which pushes me above 75% total life loss redirection, which is then easily counteracted with life recoup
On the other hand of the mentioned skills which are not affected by Progenesis, Forbidden Rite is affected, which can be used to ramp excess recoup into a stable source of recovery even greater.
I tested this on a pathfinder with 122% increased flask effect and can confirm that it does work.
Unfortunately I can also confirm that you are right. the effect is multiplicative with Petrified Blood.
I love how incredibly in-depth and knowledgeable about these nieche mechanics you are. I subbed last year when you did your petrified blood video.
I subbed because of that video too. Really good in depth analysis of mechanics.
My brain hurts now
Congratulations on a successful defense of your Doctoral Thesis in PoE!
I was waiting for that info, thanks! I hoped that the flask would stack additively with Petrified Blood, but of course it doesn't.
While Progenesis doesn't interact with ward, it could in theory still the useful on wardloop builds for defensive purposes. As these builds have crazy life recovery, it essentially increases your max hit by 33% of your life total. So a 2k ward 3k life 2k mana setup would have a max hit of 8k instead of 7k. It's on an Amethyst base though, which lowers the damage taken from Forbidden Rite.
Yeah, Petrified Blood being both (a) multiplicative and (b) applied second is pretty much worst-case scenario for the combo (aside from a scenario where only the greater value applies or something). Unfortunate! I too was hoping they would be additive, but it was too good to be true.
And yeah, I suppose even in that scenario you described with ward-loop, it's still not bad. It's less than 50% efficiency compared to a life-only build, but hey, 1K HP is 1K HP.
@@sergeantminor256 It can be beneficial with alt quality petrified blood, but yeah in most cases its bad
Thank you very much for the in-depth explanation of this flask. I learned a lot.
Great to see more mechanics videos! Good work.
Its Very nice hear you talking, I dont know english fully, but the way you talk is very clear and explanable... Nice video, new follow for sure !
(Btw you wold do a very nice teatcher)
Thank you! I'm glad you found the video helpful! For what it's worth, I do teach math and physics for a living.
@@sergeantminor256 Oh, so thats why you talk like that haha, you must be very good on your job, but I still hate mat sorry hahahah
Any and all questions were answered. Very good video. Thank you
Well done and welcome back.
Cool. Thanks for this. I just bought this flask yesterday, and was considering dropping Arctic armor for pb and grabbing pain attunement. This pretty much settles that idea.
You mentioned you would try a build with Dissolution and PB. Here's some insane tech: Eternal Youth, Dissolution, and PB. Since you never lose life from taking damage (thanks fro Dissolution), you never stop recharging ES. Stack recharge rate from jewels and you have a huge amount of permanent life recharge. How best to utilise it? How about Dark Pact, which is a sacrifice not a damage taken! The only downside is that you have to play with Dissolution which can be annoying.
Worth mentioning that I didn't discover this tech. I learned about it from Lance who possibly learned about it from someone else.
I've heard of this Eternal Youth tech. It's definitely a strong interaction. I think the build I'd want to do with it would not need that much recovery. Just the overleech with Vaal Pact would be more than enough.
As for Dissolution being annoying, that's why I think it pairs best with a build that uses block/spell block (or Wind Dancer/Acrobatics). Something to space out incoming damage enough to mitigate the reservation.
Thank you so much for this video, which contains the content I wondered!
That's the best explanation!
Is there any chance you have time to explain Trinity Support?
Love your videos, very well structured and informative and I seem to not understand Trinity fully yet.
Thank you for all your time making these videos, please keep them going :D
The PB expert is back! Thanks for the great explanation of how this flask works!
I love how accurate PoE is with it's wording in many cases. Not many games achieve that level of detail by just looking at words.
"Nearby" would like a word with you
Straight up legend, well explained. Thanks! Have a good weekend good sir.
This video has a better scientific methodology, than some papers I have read lol. And I love it for that
Very good video for me as I am using blood magic and petrified blood.
I'm not very savvy with understanding these kind of mechanics, earlier in the video you mentioned how having a secondary health pool would make the flask less efficient, do you mean that having lets say, 3200 life and around 600 es would make the flask mitigate less damage than just having 3200 life? I've been thinking about making a permanent progenesis setup for my arakaali build to increase its large hit tankiness (dont want to build as squishy as other squire builds), but I'd have around 250-600 ES leftover from some gear that I thought would just be nice situational extra hit points, but now I'm not sure. Awesome video btw!
It's fine to have extra ES. It's just that any damage dealt to the ES specifically won't be "reduced" by the flask. Only when your life itself is being damaged will the flask do anything. It's less "efficient" because the flask only boosts the effective HP from life, not from ES. That doesn't mean you should avoid ES on your build just because of the flask, though!
@@sergeantminor256 thank you for the reply!
This was a great video mate. Ty!
GGG hire this man already
Subscribed. Very detailed explanation.
Very well explained thanks!
Call the news someone on the internet knows how to conduct proper research. Great vid!
it is truly an anomaly
Really big fan of this on slayer
👍 Very good explanation , thank you
Yeah I went the blood magic route too early and was hurting. Having petrified blood and the vaal pact hindered me in that my life was much lower due to using skills and also certain auras can't be used in conjunction with petrified blood.
So basically, if you're life based, and have at least 25% life recoup, then the flask pretty much reads "you take 25% less damage from hits during flask effect"
Essentially, yes. Not technically, for the purpose of tracking "damage taken," but generally yes you can think of the combo that way.
And with nearly maximum flask effect this can be 75%, quadrupling your effective hp pool!
More videos to come? 😁
Does flask effect work?
Yeah, I've got some more builds to test and hopefully show off this league. Currently doing a Bloodseeker build and will probably make a video whenever I feel it's ready. I also wrote most of the script for an ailment mechanics video months ago but never finished it. I will though!
And yes, flask effect does work exactly how you would expect. I just pinned a comment addressing this.
You said that any defensive mechanics don't work, but in a sense life regen does work right to counter the life loss?
I'm using this flask and it is the most busted item I've used next to mageblood and Headhunter
Nice work on the video!
Looking forward for build that goes to 100%
Dear sir, in this topic u didn't say anything about witch forbidden ascendancy Nine Lives. I cant figure out how it will work with the flask and jewel?
Ah yes, Recoup probably deserved a mention as well. Recoup is great with Petrified Blood and/or Progenesis because the recovery from Recoup can counteract the life loss over time. Recoup's recovery is based on damage taken, not life lost. This means Progenesis won't reduce the amount of recovery you get from Recoup. So, assuming you have no modifiers to recovery rate, "25% of damage taken recouped as life" should totally counteract the life loss over time from Progenesis.
As for Nine Lives specifically, it just grants Recoup and also makes the Recoup happen faster. There's no special interaction there beyond the natural synergy between Recoup and Progenesis.
Wardloop builds took a massive hit with the removal of survival secrets, which counteracted the huge downside of Olroth's Resolve of 70% less ward during flask effect. I wanted to play it again this league, but when I remove Survival Secrets from my character in standard, I now take some life damage due to my ward pool being reduced. Since the build has a lot of recoup on it, do you think this flask could help mitigate that loss? The reason I ask is because I can't afford one in standard to test it myself, so would really appreciate your thoughts on this.
What's your IGN? I can give you the one I bought on Standard.
@@sergeantminor256 That would be so nice, thank you. My PoE username is LioazemPC
@@helioa8191 I think I need a character name, not an account name. It won't let me send the request.
@@sergeantminor256 oh, sorry about that... I'm on my wardlooper right now, char name is BruxaDoSetentaeUMMMMMMM (7 Ms)
Lucky guy!
do those recoup damage jewels like cobalt viridian and crimson work well with this
Yes, any source of life recoup works really well with this.
how does the reduced flask per use work? everytime you use it there will come a time that it will have no charge?
No, it just means the flask consumes fewer charges, and it's the same number every time. So if the flask normally consumes 30 charges on use, 10% reduced charges per use means it consumes 27.
@@sergeantminor256 aight thanks. great vid
Me as a cyclone slayer: So... I do want this 🤔
does the hit stacks? like if i take 5000dmg in hits, 10 times in the same sec, the initial hit i heal up instant, from leech/loh and so on, does that mean it will leavea 12.500 degen debuff on me, with no way to regen back if all mobs are dead?(unless sick amount of regen)
Yes, that is correct. A good way to counteract this would be life recoup. 25% should completely nullify the degen, assuming you have no modifiers to life recovery rate.
Isn't it bad to combine with petrified blood since you don't get the 20% mitigation on the damage that the flask converts?
If you're only looking at total life lost, yes. But if you're trying to minimize spike damage (which seems to be the main point of PB/Progenesis), then you'd want to use both.
Isn’t there a skill that damages you? Thought it was park pact but maybe a different chaos skill.
You're probably thinking of Forbidden Rite.
you're the best
Would progenesis be wasted om RF jugg?
Nope! If you're life-based, it's a great item for mitigating big damage spikes.
@@sergeantminor256 thanks for answering!
Flask effect?
See my pinned comment.
Styling on reddit nerds is always welcome.
can't wait to try this with wardloop this league, I think it'll make wardloop as tanky if not a bit more than last league
5:26 It doesn’t work with wardloop
It doesn't break ward-loop builds; it just doesn't synergize with them nearly as well as pure life-based builds, since a relatively small proportion of HP is in the form of life. It can still be used to increase effective HP, but I don't know if it's worth it vs. other flask options.
@@sergeantminor256 I think it'll be close, at least to make up for the nerfs to survivability. I was thinking something like:
2600 hp 1.1k ward (budget ehp values for wardloop in 3.20) so it'd be able to take a max amount of final damage of 2600*1.25+1100= 4350 final damage
Compared to last league where we had around 2600 hp and 1.6k ward meaning 4200 max final damage taken from a hit
If the math above is correct than it should fix the huge survivability nerf it got.
@@xyzqsrbo It's actually 2600 / 0.75, not 2600 * 1.25. So it's a bit better than you say.
soooo... tldr, dissolution builds just got a buff.
as did pet blood.
and, as a consequence, relic of the pact.
also,,, interesting that pet blood applies AFTER the flask. I would have expected the other way round.
however that makes sense, because this is usually worse for players.
unless they are running the pet blood quality that increases the prevented % but increases % lost of damage prevented.
I too was expecting it to apply before and not after, but the numbers didn't work out that way.
PB + Dissolution + Progenesis has got to be a pretty crazy build, right? I was thinking of trying an Acrobatics Raider with two Replica Last Resorts and Bloodthirst support, maybe use Forbidden Flesh/Flame to get Pathfinder's flask charge generation...
@@sergeantminor256 this is why standard is great 😁
@@sergeantminor256 Rage Vortex gamers, are using this combo to juice Voidforge with Bloodthirst. Life regen can go to Kaom's spirit, and eternal youth covers Rite of Ruin degen.
Super potent, even if Zerker lacks the avoid mechanics that would lend itself to a Dissolution playstyle.
Progenesis does what Nintendon't
Off topic, but holy hell, your voice sounds like a calmer more laid back Kwite. Just an observation and I don't mean anything with this comment :)
Try speak faster, so we have no change in hell following the tecnical stuff.