Wow, I've watched a bunch of these videos without realizing who you were! Cool to see you get more work, I hope I'll see some off your stuff in Bloomburrow/MH3! Stroke of Luck and Flames of Moradin probably don't get mentioned a lot since they were digital-only but I really like em.
Pillage the Bog is sick... Also the like Greenish Death Side being Peaceful and the Black Alive Side being like screaming in agony is sick. Amazing stuff
It's surprising to me that they don't give you more info on how the cards do. The pillage the bog art is really evocative, and could be extremely flavorful if it was paired with card text that was more representative of it. I'm not sure if this is just a byproduct of their breakneck production speed or if it's always been like this.
In the really early days sometimes the artists wouldn't get anything besides the card name. It's part of the reason Force of Will looks like a red card.
Its honestly interesting comparing how Magic works with artists compared to yugioh. How in magic youre largely just a contractor comissioned for a specific work, but are fully credited and can even be promoted. In yugioh youre given way more creative control, able to do full blown character designs and steer the visual direction of an entire set of cards only to never ever get creditted.
I'm curious, how do you know that artists in YGO get that much control? Also, part of it must be because archetypal design allows it. There are few times were a narrative is so ingrained that the art must remain consistent (like Albaz lore), and even then you might have things like Spriggans along Swordsoul, looking like nothing that would live in same universe.
@@FolfireI don't know about the creative control part but as far as I understand it, most Yugioh art is created by a handful of in-house illustrators. They are full-time Konami employees so it would make sense if they are involved in every part of the art production. This is specifically a Yugioh thing, the illustration process of almost every TCG should be very similar to MTG.
@@Folfire An artbook was recently released in japan which allowed for artists for various archetypes to show off their works, reference art for characters, and other stuff. They were also all allowed write up comments on what went into their designs and ideas. Of course none of the artists were allowed to be credited by name still because konami is terrible. While we dont know exactly how the approval process works because of ndas, we know for a fact that they have a lot of freedom in their character designs. They aren't just commissioned pieces of art, they are commissioned to do full original character designs and then are given commissions for artwork of those characters with generalized guidelines when it comes to spell/trap cards within the archetype. These character designs are always quite detailed and their reference art sometimes comes with concepts for what the monster card artwork of the character might be framed. Sections of the art book were translated by ygorganization as individual articles if you want to see it yourself. Id recommend looking at the sections on sky strikers centered around artist's reference art for the whole archetype, and the separate section featuring where said artist also goes over their process making the ROTA alt art step by step. The traptrix portion is also really good. (edit: grammar)
@@Chiffonaise No they hire freelance artists and have done so for a long time now. The two artists we do know for a fact have worked on cards and archetypes, Akina Fujiwara and Genzoman, are both freelancers. Akina has done a variety of cards including Droll & Lockbird and the entirety of traptrix. Genzoman did Kozmos. (Edit:grammar)
@@CatManThree I said that most of Yugioh's art is created by in-house illustrators, not all of it. Well, we don't exactly know how much of the art is created by employees vs freelancers (since they aren't credited), but it's likely true that Konami has an in-house art team that create card illustrations. On Konami's Japanese recruitment website, they have a job listing for full-time illustrators for Yugioh, and that their responsibility is to create monster designs and card illustrations (it's live right now, so you can look it up if you want).
Holy crap, FINALLY someone talking about this!!! Intentionally designing the illustration to relate to the frame in some way is sooo satisfying and such a missed opportunity most of the time. All 5 of your Thunder Junction cards jumped out to me as great illustrations, which is a feat in and of itself, but also for this very reason so it's validating to hear that it was an intentional effort. It is also hilarious to me that you have now illustrated both Braum and Bruse, who are in my head canonically multiverse versions of the same person (and big shoutout to Vigor in the herd!!!) It also makes me sad not knowing the mechanic of the card so you could potentially represent it (literally or symbolically). Goes counter to "form follows function". I've also brainstormed which classic cards I would want to repaint as the most quintessential representation of that effect, having played with the card. I'm forever mad that neither Bolt Bend nor Bolt Bender feature someone Bending Bolts... I don't know if yall every play on Spelltable or have a Discord or anything, but I would love to play and chat sometime, I feel like I need to gush about this with someone, and the intersection of mtg illustrators that actually play is surprisingly small.
If I'd painted Dockside, there's no way I could have had multiple conversations about Magic, for an audience, and not dropped that nugget in there somewhere... congrats! They should get you to paint the card Humility 😄
I love the art on pillage the bog but the mechanical disconnect from the art is absolutely a huge miss, and I definitely appreciate how not knowing what the card does, even vaguely, hurts a lot as the artist because the card’s actual effect is ultimately a real part of the overall piece in the eyes of most people who will interact with it.
Dominik Mayer has done a lot of awesome looking work with geometric, impressionistic patterns and I think is one of those artists who excel at “spell” cards over “creature” cards for that very reason. His art is a great example of how to get the feeling of a spell across more so than a singular focus.
You say that, but then they also do incredible creature cards as well. I love his "Sauron, the Dark Lord" and "Jin-Gitaxias", for example. Really all of their work is great. But I agree, he's great at spell cards.
actions are always the more mesmerizing cards in general, since they are the best at fertilizing our imagination and making us wonder about the context, pulling us in to immersion when not mid match...
I love your art of "Pillage the Bog". It's doing something I love seeing on a magic card's art, and that's the whole "splitting the canvas" sorta thing (or whatever the technical term would be). See "Ripples of Potential" by Sam Hogg or "Shivan Reef" by... well both the Andrew Mar and Donato Giancola versions. But yeah, even though "Pillage the Bog" doesn't do anything with the graveyard, as it should with that name and art, it's still a cool card.
Pillage the Bog art is amazing and would have been so perfect for reanimating or recurring something. Man they really needed to give more clarity ahead of time.
Nice work on pillage the bog! Great use of symmetry to convey symbolism. I understand that the game needs a certain amount of hyper-realism to help suspend disbelief while playing, but cards that elicit deep seated truths, like pillage the bog, are a huge part of the identity of the game.
It’s cool to hear thoughts about what goes into making great art for magic and for any game really. I always love to learn more about what goes into the process.
Yoo i didnt know Forrest made Pillage the Bog! Ive been playing a bit of OTJ limited and that has been one of my favorites, for its art as well as effect. I think the ubiquitous black card that could have been brought up is Thoughtseize, that thing slides into practically any format.
I'd be really curious to hear their thoughts on that particular recent(ish) direction with MTG art. How they are completely reinventing frames, styles, and layouts. As an art lover I think some of it looks amazing, like mystical archives and the rock poster style of the LotR stuff, but as a player of the game it makes things much more difficult to follow when you can't read the card and there are millions of versions of the same card floating around.
This episode really resonated with some of my experiences. I don't typically care a ton for the art. It's important to the game, and I get that, but for me it tends to be ambience more than focus. Pillage the Bog was specifically an exception. I saw the art for my pre-release promo and was immediately excited to see what it did, and found myself disappointed when I read the mechanics. Not that it's a bad card, but the effect isn't nearly as fun as the art.
oh while my art stride a bit away from what Magic is looking nowadays. its funny how many artist got their first inspo looking at a really cool magic art (for me was Silver Myr, the art mixed with the very evocative flavour text changed everything)
I’ve watched a few podcasts and I was just like cool dockside piece. Now I’m like wait he DID dockside!? I love that dockside, the new blue colored one seems wrong.
I liked your spell Getaway Glamer, and I think you could do good work on other spells! Fatal Push is probably the current most iconic black spell, and the worse version might be Cut Down?
I like cards where the colors contrast with the frame a lot more. The modern Lightning Bolt having a red bolt in it instead of a blue bolt really irritates me. That kind of thing almost feels like the art direction being condescending to the viewer.
19:09 I wish I could watch an American video without someone reaching a point where they awkwardly tiptoe around acknowledging another person's achievements, because they can't stand their politics. It's so embarrassing that you bend to this ostracisation, especially since you guys talk about genuinely interesting stuff and I like listening to you. Real stain on this great video.
Hmm sounds like you’re not familiar with what were actually tiptoeing around. Terese Nielsen was blacklisted by wizards of the coast for her political opinions. We don’t hold anything against her and acknowledging her accomplishments has nothing to do with her political opinions, we were referencing the situation with WOTC.
Wow, I've watched a bunch of these videos without realizing who you were! Cool to see you get more work, I hope I'll see some off your stuff in Bloomburrow/MH3! Stroke of Luck and Flames of Moradin probably don't get mentioned a lot since they were digital-only but I really like em.
I didn't know that you are an mtg artist. Your art for dockside extortionist is the best version of the card.
No offense to the other artists but the other Docksides look like a Ragavan.
The original art is my favorite as well
Pillage the Bog is sick... Also the like Greenish Death Side being Peaceful and the Black Alive Side being like screaming in agony is sick. Amazing stuff
It's surprising to me that they don't give you more info on how the cards do. The pillage the bog art is really evocative, and could be extremely flavorful if it was paired with card text that was more representative of it. I'm not sure if this is just a byproduct of their breakneck production speed or if it's always been like this.
They order the art so far in advance the cards may not be finished
It’s pretty much always been like this since Alpha.
In the really early days sometimes the artists wouldn't get anything besides the card name. It's part of the reason Force of Will looks like a red card.
My list for the second string spells for the closing discussion: Shock, Mana Leak, Condemn, Duress, Invigorate
Its honestly interesting comparing how Magic works with artists compared to yugioh. How in magic youre largely just a contractor comissioned for a specific work, but are fully credited and can even be promoted. In yugioh youre given way more creative control, able to do full blown character designs and steer the visual direction of an entire set of cards only to never ever get creditted.
I'm curious, how do you know that artists in YGO get that much control? Also, part of it must be because archetypal design allows it. There are few times were a narrative is so ingrained that the art must remain consistent (like Albaz lore), and even then you might have things like Spriggans along Swordsoul, looking like nothing that would live in same universe.
@@FolfireI don't know about the creative control part but as far as I understand it, most Yugioh art is created by a handful of in-house illustrators. They are full-time Konami employees so it would make sense if they are involved in every part of the art production.
This is specifically a Yugioh thing, the illustration process of almost every TCG should be very similar to MTG.
@@Folfire An artbook was recently released in japan which allowed for artists for various archetypes to show off their works, reference art for characters, and other stuff. They were also all allowed write up comments on what went into their designs and ideas. Of course none of the artists were allowed to be credited by name still because konami is terrible.
While we dont know exactly how the approval process works because of ndas, we know for a fact that they have a lot of freedom in their character designs. They aren't just commissioned pieces of art, they are commissioned to do full original character designs and then are given commissions for artwork of those characters with generalized guidelines when it comes to spell/trap cards within the archetype. These character designs are always quite detailed and their reference art sometimes comes with concepts for what the monster card artwork of the character might be framed.
Sections of the art book were translated by ygorganization as individual articles if you want to see it yourself. Id recommend looking at the sections on sky strikers centered around artist's reference art for the whole archetype, and the separate section featuring where said artist also goes over their process making the ROTA alt art step by step. The traptrix portion is also really good.
(edit: grammar)
@@Chiffonaise No they hire freelance artists and have done so for a long time now. The two artists we do know for a fact have worked on cards and archetypes, Akina Fujiwara and Genzoman, are both freelancers.
Akina has done a variety of cards including Droll & Lockbird and the entirety of traptrix. Genzoman did Kozmos.
(Edit:grammar)
@@CatManThree I said that most of Yugioh's art is created by in-house illustrators, not all of it. Well, we don't exactly know how much of the art is created by employees vs freelancers (since they aren't credited), but it's likely true that Konami has an in-house art team that create card illustrations. On Konami's Japanese recruitment website, they have a job listing for full-time illustrators for Yugioh, and that their responsibility is to create monster designs and card illustrations (it's live right now, so you can look it up if you want).
I got into Magic in ‘96 because of the art. It’s what keeps me coming back. Such an under-discussed aspect of the game. This was fascinating!
Holy crap, FINALLY someone talking about this!!! Intentionally designing the illustration to relate to the frame in some way is sooo satisfying and such a missed opportunity most of the time.
All 5 of your Thunder Junction cards jumped out to me as great illustrations, which is a feat in and of itself, but also for this very reason so it's validating to hear that it was an intentional effort. It is also hilarious to me that you have now illustrated both Braum and Bruse, who are in my head canonically multiverse versions of the same person (and big shoutout to Vigor in the herd!!!)
It also makes me sad not knowing the mechanic of the card so you could potentially represent it (literally or symbolically). Goes counter to "form follows function". I've also brainstormed which classic cards I would want to repaint as the most quintessential representation of that effect, having played with the card. I'm forever mad that neither Bolt Bend nor Bolt Bender feature someone Bending Bolts...
I don't know if yall every play on Spelltable or have a Discord or anything, but I would love to play and chat sometime, I feel like I need to gush about this with someone, and the intersection of mtg illustrators that actually play is surprisingly small.
We haven’t really played on spelltable, but we’d be down for sure! If you’re on discord hit us up there or email us! Love your work btw!
If I'd painted Dockside, there's no way I could have had multiple conversations about Magic, for an audience, and not dropped that nugget in there somewhere... congrats! They should get you to paint the card Humility 😄
I love the art on pillage the bog but the mechanical disconnect from the art is absolutely a huge miss, and I definitely appreciate how not knowing what the card does, even vaguely, hurts a lot as the artist because the card’s actual effect is ultimately a real part of the overall piece in the eyes of most people who will interact with it.
23:20 you're lookin for Doom Blade fellas 🫡
Haha totally slipped our minds.
Dominik Mayer has done a lot of awesome looking work with geometric, impressionistic patterns and I think is one of those artists who excel at “spell” cards over “creature” cards for that very reason. His art is a great example of how to get the feeling of a spell across more so than a singular focus.
You say that, but then they also do incredible creature cards as well. I love his "Sauron, the Dark Lord" and "Jin-Gitaxias", for example. Really all of their work is great. But I agree, he's great at spell cards.
actions are always the more mesmerizing cards in general, since they are the best at fertilizing our imagination and making us wonder about the context, pulling us in to immersion when not mid match...
I love your art of "Pillage the Bog". It's doing something I love seeing on a magic card's art, and that's the whole "splitting the canvas" sorta thing (or whatever the technical term would be). See "Ripples of Potential" by Sam Hogg or "Shivan Reef" by... well both the Andrew Mar and Donato Giancola versions.
But yeah, even though "Pillage the Bog" doesn't do anything with the graveyard, as it should with that name and art, it's still a cool card.
Here I am doing the math and if you've done 30 pieces for Magic, then it seems like 10 of them aren't released yet. Can't wait.
Artist dude paints dockside as his second ever art for a magic card... yet still aspires to have his art on a good card someday.
Because dockside is a bad card
Love to hear the in-depth talk about behind the scenes of Magic. Very insightful for those of us aspiring to illustrate for magic. Keep it up 😊
Hex drinker is an awesome card! It proudly lives in my cube. You did a great job on the illustration
Oh dang, I didn't know one of you had made art for magic! I looked up what cards you've made and I just gotta shout out that Goat token. It's so good.
I'd argue doom blade is the iconic black spell.
Doom Blade is iconic for sure, but it has to be Demonic Tutor for me. The best version of the thing black does best.
Wow, you actually made Dockside Extortionists.
Pillage the Bog art is amazing and would have been so perfect for reanimating or recurring something. Man they really needed to give more clarity ahead of time.
Nice work on pillage the bog! Great use of symmetry to convey symbolism. I understand that the game needs a certain amount of hyper-realism to help suspend disbelief while playing, but cards that elicit deep seated truths, like pillage the bog, are a huge part of the identity of the game.
It’s cool to hear thoughts about what goes into making great art for magic and for any game really. I always love to learn more about what goes into the process.
Yoo i didnt know Forrest made Pillage the Bog! Ive been playing a bit of OTJ limited and that has been one of my favorites, for its art as well as effect.
I think the ubiquitous black card that could have been brought up is Thoughtseize, that thing slides into practically any format.
How do you guys feel about the really difficult to read Secret Lair gimmick arts? Like cereal boxes and baseball card mockups.
I'd be really curious to hear their thoughts on that particular recent(ish) direction with MTG art. How they are completely reinventing frames, styles, and layouts. As an art lover I think some of it looks amazing, like mystical archives and the rock poster style of the LotR stuff, but as a player of the game it makes things much more difficult to follow when you can't read the card and there are millions of versions of the same card floating around.
This episode really resonated with some of my experiences. I don't typically care a ton for the art. It's important to the game, and I get that, but for me it tends to be ambience more than focus. Pillage the Bog was specifically an exception. I saw the art for my pre-release promo and was immediately excited to see what it did, and found myself disappointed when I read the mechanics. Not that it's a bad card, but the effect isn't nearly as fun as the art.
Yoooo, you did the art for Pillage the Bog! Love that piece, great job
Graphic mixed with realism is fuckin mint, love that shit
oh while my art stride a bit away from what Magic is looking nowadays. its funny how many artist got their first inspo looking at a really cool magic art (for me was Silver Myr, the art mixed with the very evocative flavour text changed everything)
for a while I wanted to do a big legendary creature. but now that im a draft freak I want those 2 mana dummys that are good bc they have lifelink
pillage the bog is so cool looking that I made some bad drafting decisions
Everything but the effect on Pillage the Bog implies it would use the graveyard to me
I’ve watched a few podcasts and I was just like cool dockside piece. Now I’m like wait he DID dockside!? I love that dockside, the new blue colored one seems wrong.
im not a artist but man at a certain point chris cold's art almost made me want to try
The most iconic low cost black spell is probably Dark Ritual or Demonic Tutor I would guess...
I liked your spell Getaway Glamer, and I think you could do good work on other spells! Fatal Push is probably the current most iconic black spell, and the worse version might be Cut Down?
You guys gotta fix Forrest’s mic
go see a doctor, you have serious problems with your ears
We record multiple episodes at once, this is the last one where it is messed up.
the conversation about dockside aged well
Giant Growths counterpart is probably Titanic Growth.
Pretty sweet to have credit on probably the most famous red card in commander keep up the good work!
Also didn't know you were an MTG artist. Always assumed you were a designer/frenemy to Gavin.
RIP Dockside, art is great card was too good.
Forrest's mic have a problem here? It sounded like you went swiming with it before this shoot.
Yeah, it was an issue for a few videos. Its fixed now
Dogs are vastly under-represented in magic
Oh hey I didn't you were the one to blame for Dockside! How could you do this to us? Lol 😂
You guys have to do a talk on banning tcg game pieces now given the news yesterday.
I like cards where the colors contrast with the frame a lot more. The modern Lightning Bolt having a red bolt in it instead of a blue bolt really irritates me. That kind of thing almost feels like the art direction being condescending to the viewer.
I guess you like to work for WotC, as a contractor. Could you interview other Magic artists have an open conversation about AI stolen generated art?
Dog Side Extortionist
comment for algorithm
Can I double like a video?
Please actually do research on Terese Nielsen before talking like that, she's done absolutely nothing wrong.
Glad they have moved away from the big nose stereotype on goblins.
19:09 I wish I could watch an American video without someone reaching a point where they awkwardly tiptoe around acknowledging another person's achievements, because they can't stand their politics. It's so embarrassing that you bend to this ostracisation, especially since you guys talk about genuinely interesting stuff and I like listening to you. Real stain on this great video.
Hmm sounds like you’re not familiar with what were actually tiptoeing around. Terese Nielsen was blacklisted by wizards of the coast for her political opinions. We don’t hold anything against her and acknowledging her accomplishments has nothing to do with her political opinions, we were referencing the situation with WOTC.
Your card got banned!!!!!
Yup