My bad on the prize card example as it actually works the opposite way in Pokemon to how I explained in this video. Just shows that I need to double check on my knowledge before I release these videos. Fortunately the example I make is still viable, it is just my initial source that is incorrect.
The way that you explained the prize mechaninc, was acctualy a very cool mechanic. I'm making my card game, and one of the mechanics is "when a creature is destroyed, the owner gets to draw a card from the deck'. Love you videos, they are being a very important part in refinind and developing the rules for my card game, thank you!!!
I came here to comment this, glad you caught it. The Pokémon prize mechanic is inherently bad. Why are winners being rewarded even more. Your description makes much more sense.
Funnily enough, prize cards are kind of an example of capped damage. With a few exceptions, it's nearly impossible to take all 6 prizes in 1 turn. OTKs in pokemon either rely on your opponent only having 1 pokemon on the board or a combo that would take several turns to set up. Prize cards are still a worse alternative to what you described, mostly because it's a very old mechanic that can't be changed without completely wiping the card pool, but it's not wholly bad.
That's incorrect on how prizes worked in Pokemon. Pokemon doesn't have a catch up mechanic, it rewards the player that is in the lead. Because you take a prize card for defeating an opponent's monster. I think the game you're trying to refer to is Duel Masters.
Yes, I've pinned my comment explaining my mistake. There are a few TCGs that work the opposite way, and just my luck that I got the Pokemon system the wrong way around. I hold my hands up on this one.
To be fair pokemon does have some catch up mechanics linked to prize cards For exemple Iono makes you put your hand at the bottom of your deck and draw as many cards as you have prize cards remaining. If you only have one or two prize card remaining you can easily be hand blocked from playing, letting your opponent catch up Same things for other cards that can only be played after getting a knock out (unfair stamps being one of the best one at this game) Some decks like charizard also rely on having your opponent take prizes early as you become better with each prize taken by your opponent
The pokemon example is actually how Digimon's Security cards work, with the added bonus that some cards have effects when drawn from security, and some monsters can block your damagen when revealed from security.
This video almost didn't even make it out today. But I am soooo pleased I got over the finish line. And I am so much more pleased that you enjoyed it. Thank you for being there for me.
@@ShardTCG Your so welcome dude! No one has helped you more than you have. Literally you have helped me the most with this than anyone with anything. I am so glad you make your vids cause without them my tcg would quite frankly be crap.
I've been excited to make this video for so long. I don't think it is the kind of video everyone gets super excited to watch, but I know that some of this information will be a big help for someone who is just starting out on their TCG journey.
I've had multiple tabs opened for later and finally got to listen to this video. Great stuff man and thanks for helping all HTCG creators out there! Keep it up!
@@ShardTCG in your opinion do you think it's more productive to have catch up mechanics be inherent to the rules, or provided through card effects for the players to choose when/if to use them?
Great topic and video mate! :D A thing I also think ties a bit into this, is that many card games also favours the defender. Most of the time, this is shown with the ability to assign blockers (with MtG and any game with similar combat mechanic, Legends of Runeterra, etc). Since we can imagine, that the aggressor often will be the one ahead (ie, board state allowing them for some potential poor trades, but to push some damage through), giving the defender the power to control the trades, what goes through and what gets blocked, also plays into giving the player who is behind, a valuable tool to come back. Maybe the defender thought of a creative way to block, that the aggressor did not think of, or had a combat trick up their sleeve (you just activated my trap card!)
Catch-up mechanics are fascinating, and very difficult to design. You don't want the catch-up mechanic to be so powerful that the meta play is to optimise losing so you can catch-up, but you still want it to be powerful enough to keep the win feeling uncertain, but you don't want it to be so powerful that the winning player feels screwed out of their win, and you don't want to make it so powerful that the catching-up player feels like it's just the catch-up mechanic that made them win. You also probably want a catch-up mechanic that isn't too directly reliant on the opponent's actions, lest it disincentivise taking actions at all. The natural catch-up in multiplayer formats isn't ideal either - this usually just creates situations where the first player who tries to win loses, then the second player who tries to win wins now that everyone else has run out of disruption. In its extremes, you get games like Munchkin that can end up in unsatisfying stalemates as the level of luck needed to win through a full table ganging up on the leading player every round is too high to close out the game in a timely manner. MTG's Commander format shows another undesirable aspect of this, where every deck becomes a solitaire economy deck because any aggressive move made before you definitely have the ability to win the game makes you the target and guarantees you lose.
Thank you for this video. For the longest time during the first version of my rule set, catch-up mechanics were the trickiest and most annoying riddle that kept coming up in my mind. I've had to completely remix concepts and rules in hopes of having this. Now, when I have any ideas, I always ask if this involves a catch-up mechanic or not
I mean not always. So deck constructed dueling card games, not just TCGs but the ECGs too, can range from ping pong like to chess like. Personally I prefer a more chess like experience in my deck constructed dueling card games. I pretty much forget the close big swings.
Some sort of extreme catch up mechanic was the self-destruction button card, from yu-gi-oh, where you could draw a match if you were losing by a huge difference of life (7000 or more). Instead of being defeated, the player would force a tie. This way a player could prevent losing for bad luck draws or one turn kills. But when abused, this card could be a huge annoying one. Anyways, it was an interesting catch up card.
It's actually just the opposite with pokemon. The prize mechanic benefits the winning player. When a player knocks out a pokemon, that player takes a prize card or two, which sometimes can snowball, but there are cards that specifically hinder your progress the more prizes you take compared to your opponent. The card Effects themselves prevent the snowball effect. Take for instance "N" from the black and white sets. Also, the snowball effect isnt as disastorous as in other games because the ability to run through one's deck is so easy in pokemon. Hand advantage doesn't mean as much in the game. (I see you corrected yourself, just wanted to further explain that it's not that much of an advantage, which is one of the reasons why the game is still so popular.)
They're a fun gimmick but ultimately expensive and impractical. It's a shame, but sleeving your cards becomes limiting, and cards with certain patterns can be recognised from the back of the card.
I like a lot of these ideas but life point capping is usually not a good one, inherently weakening a strategy within the rules of the game itself rather than by changing the cards is just a bad idea, and life gain is usually weak and passive anyway unless it has a lot of strong support or the cards are heavily undercosted
Here's a crazy idea. What about a soft cap for life points. So you have your starting life points, which is your soft cap. Anything above that amount could require 2 life regen for 1 life you would actually receive. I don't know if it is good or not, but it just came to me as I read this, thanks.
I don't see life capping as a good mechanic, most games have ways to gain life and ways of, directly or indirectly, pay life and paying life is almost always broken since you start with full life, gaining life on the other hand is really bad most of the time because if you spend your resources on life gaining you can buy yourselves a few turns but without dealing with the threat that causes you to loose that life you will be in the same position next turn. Uncapped life at least theoretically allowes life gain to boost you enough so you have multiple turns of buffer before you need to block your opponent and could give you the time to gather other resources or creatures, unlikely but I wouldn't outright tell them they cannot at least try.
You probably goofed. Pokémon tcg gives the one who knocked out their opponents a card, not the one who lost a Pokémon. You should have spoke more on Duel Masters and DragonBall Super Card games.
Ah sorry that is a BIG goof then. I remembered it wrong but there are other examples of that mechanic like you have just given. I guess I can look forward to a few people letting me know about this mistake in the near future 😅😅😅 Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
My bad on the prize card example as it actually works the opposite way in Pokemon to how I explained in this video. Just shows that I need to double check on my knowledge before I release these videos. Fortunately the example I make is still viable, it is just my initial source that is incorrect.
it is kind of funny though, that its such a bad mechanic we can forget and assume its a good one like from duel masters
The way that you explained the prize mechaninc, was acctualy a very cool mechanic. I'm making my card game, and one of the mechanics is "when a creature is destroyed, the owner gets to draw a card from the deck'. Love you videos, they are being a very important part in refinind and developing the rules for my card game, thank you!!!
I came here to comment this, glad you caught it.
The Pokémon prize mechanic is inherently bad. Why are winners being rewarded even more.
Your description makes much more sense.
Funnily enough, prize cards are kind of an example of capped damage. With a few exceptions, it's nearly impossible to take all 6 prizes in 1 turn. OTKs in pokemon either rely on your opponent only having 1 pokemon on the board or a combo that would take several turns to set up. Prize cards are still a worse alternative to what you described, mostly because it's a very old mechanic that can't be changed without completely wiping the card pool, but it's not wholly bad.
@@sleepinbelle9627 what would happen if the mechanic was flipped like duel masters? you seem to know a thing or 2 about pokemon so
That's incorrect on how prizes worked in Pokemon. Pokemon doesn't have a catch up mechanic, it rewards the player that is in the lead. Because you take a prize card for defeating an opponent's monster. I think the game you're trying to refer to is Duel Masters.
Yes, I've pinned my comment explaining my mistake. There are a few TCGs that work the opposite way, and just my luck that I got the Pokemon system the wrong way around. I hold my hands up on this one.
To be fair pokemon does have some catch up mechanics linked to prize cards
For exemple Iono makes you put your hand at the bottom of your deck and draw as many cards as you have prize cards remaining. If you only have one or two prize card remaining you can easily be hand blocked from playing, letting your opponent catch up
Same things for other cards that can only be played after getting a knock out (unfair stamps being one of the best one at this game)
Some decks like charizard also rely on having your opponent take prizes early as you become better with each prize taken by your opponent
The pokemon example is actually how Digimon's Security cards work, with the added bonus that some cards have effects when drawn from security, and some monsters can block your damagen when revealed from security.
You won't believe how much i needed this video. Thanks so much!
This video almost didn't even make it out today. But I am soooo pleased I got over the finish line. And I am so much more pleased that you enjoyed it. Thank you for being there for me.
@@ShardTCG Your so welcome dude! No one has helped you more than you have. Literally you have helped me the most with this than anyone with anything. I am so glad you make your vids cause without them my tcg would quite frankly be crap.
I've been excited to make this video for so long. I don't think it is the kind of video everyone gets super excited to watch, but I know that some of this information will be a big help for someone who is just starting out on their TCG journey.
I've had multiple tabs opened for later and finally got to listen to this video. Great stuff man and thanks for helping all HTCG creators out there! Keep it up!
Thanks for saying that. It helps me to keep doing what I enjoy.
Been loving the new content. In my own TCG passion project I’m thinking more about your topics and it’s impact on the game. Much appreciation
Love to hear it.
Glad I can help, and thank you!
Amazing video. So helpful for upcoming htcg creators and always gets the tcg brain flowing
It's great to bounce off other creators. Thanks.
Love these videos, very inspiring! Catch-Up Mechanics are so crucial, and it's so easy to create an unbalance.
They are so important. I'm glad you appreciate the art of the catch up mechanic. Thank you!
@@ShardTCG in your opinion do you think it's more productive to have catch up mechanics be inherent to the rules, or provided through card effects for the players to choose when/if to use them?
Great topic and video mate! :D
A thing I also think ties a bit into this, is that many card games also favours the defender. Most of the time, this is shown with the ability to assign blockers (with MtG and any game with similar combat mechanic, Legends of Runeterra, etc). Since we can imagine, that the aggressor often will be the one ahead (ie, board state allowing them for some potential poor trades, but to push some damage through), giving the defender the power to control the trades, what goes through and what gets blocked, also plays into giving the player who is behind, a valuable tool to come back.
Maybe the defender thought of a creative way to block, that the aggressor did not think of, or had a combat trick up their sleeve (you just activated my trap card!)
This is the case now that I am thinking back to past exchanges. That's a fun observation.
Very good and insightful video! This is awesome! Keep it up! :)
Thank you! Will do!
Catch-up mechanics are fascinating, and very difficult to design. You don't want the catch-up mechanic to be so powerful that the meta play is to optimise losing so you can catch-up, but you still want it to be powerful enough to keep the win feeling uncertain, but you don't want it to be so powerful that the winning player feels screwed out of their win, and you don't want to make it so powerful that the catching-up player feels like it's just the catch-up mechanic that made them win. You also probably want a catch-up mechanic that isn't too directly reliant on the opponent's actions, lest it disincentivise taking actions at all.
The natural catch-up in multiplayer formats isn't ideal either - this usually just creates situations where the first player who tries to win loses, then the second player who tries to win wins now that everyone else has run out of disruption. In its extremes, you get games like Munchkin that can end up in unsatisfying stalemates as the level of luck needed to win through a full table ganging up on the leading player every round is too high to close out the game in a timely manner. MTG's Commander format shows another undesirable aspect of this, where every deck becomes a solitaire economy deck because any aggressive move made before you definitely have the ability to win the game makes you the target and guarantees you lose.
I needed this so much for my tcg thanks so much
You're welcome 👍
Which part helped you out in particular?
agree, otk is okay as long as to achieve it, it is not easy
Thank you for this video. For the longest time during the first version of my rule set, catch-up mechanics were the trickiest and most annoying riddle that kept coming up in my mind. I've had to completely remix concepts and rules in hopes of having this. Now, when I have any ideas, I always ask if this involves a catch-up mechanic or not
This is a great mindset to have, and it is shockingly overlooked by a lot of people. Well done!
I mean not always. So deck constructed dueling card games, not just TCGs but the ECGs too, can range from ping pong like to chess like. Personally I prefer a more chess like experience in my deck constructed dueling card games. I pretty much forget the close big swings.
Nice observation, thanks.
Some sort of extreme catch up mechanic was the self-destruction button card, from yu-gi-oh, where you could draw a match if you were losing by a huge difference of life (7000 or more). Instead of being defeated, the player would force a tie. This way a player could prevent losing for bad luck draws or one turn kills. But when abused, this card could be a huge annoying one. Anyways, it was an interesting catch up card.
I remember this card.
I always took it as a joke card.
Of course, there will be the few that abuse its power.
It's actually just the opposite with pokemon. The prize mechanic benefits the winning player. When a player knocks out a pokemon, that player takes a prize card or two, which sometimes can snowball, but there are cards that specifically hinder your progress the more prizes you take compared to your opponent. The card Effects themselves prevent the snowball effect. Take for instance "N" from the black and white sets. Also, the snowball effect isnt as disastorous as in other games because the ability to run through one's deck is so easy in pokemon. Hand advantage doesn't mean as much in the game. (I see you corrected yourself, just wanted to further explain that it's not that much of an advantage, which is one of the reasons why the game is still so popular.)
amazing ideas!
What are your experiences and thoughts on clear plastic cards?
They're a fun gimmick but ultimately expensive and impractical. It's a shame, but sleeving your cards becomes limiting, and cards with certain patterns can be recognised from the back of the card.
Is there really an advantage though?, for seeing the back of the clear card?
bruh, that isn't how prize cards work in Pokemon.
Hey can you talk about Deck count like how many cards should be in a Deck
I can research this but it depends if I have enough information to justify making a video over this age old question.
Thanks for the suggestion!
I'm greatfull for your response I'm in my beginner step of tcg journey and your videos are really helpful
To me, OTK is always toxic. Ashes Reborn makes it completely impossible
ya 1st turn no draw is great, unless you can balance it like Ashes Reborn did.
I am just looking up Ashes Reborn, the dice look funky 👍
I like a lot of these ideas but life point capping is usually not a good one, inherently weakening a strategy within the rules of the game itself rather than by changing the cards is just a bad idea, and life gain is usually weak and passive anyway unless it has a lot of strong support or the cards are heavily undercosted
Here's a crazy idea.
What about a soft cap for life points. So you have your starting life points, which is your soft cap. Anything above that amount could require 2 life regen for 1 life you would actually receive.
I don't know if it is good or not, but it just came to me as I read this, thanks.
I don't see life capping as a good mechanic, most games have ways to gain life and ways of, directly or indirectly, pay life and paying life is almost always broken since you start with full life, gaining life on the other hand is really bad most of the time because if you spend your resources on life gaining you can buy yourselves a few turns but without dealing with the threat that causes you to loose that life you will be in the same position next turn.
Uncapped life at least theoretically allowes life gain to boost you enough so you have multiple turns of buffer before you need to block your opponent and could give you the time to gather other resources or creatures, unlikely but I wouldn't outright tell them they cannot at least try.
I feel like yugioh watched this and deliberately went in the opposite direction.
🤣
You probably goofed. Pokémon tcg gives the one who knocked out their opponents a card, not the one who lost a Pokémon. You should have spoke more on Duel Masters and DragonBall Super Card games.
Ah sorry that is a BIG goof then. I remembered it wrong but there are other examples of that mechanic like you have just given. I guess I can look forward to a few people letting me know about this mistake in the near future 😅😅😅
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
@@ShardTCG A rule of research: reading rules.
Bro just use triggers
It's an option. My video is more on macro play in bedded within the rules.
@@ShardTCG oh I know i thought it to be a funny joke