Cultish: Practicing Discernment as a Charismatic w/Josh Lewis
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2021
- In this episode, we talk with Josh Lewis from The Remnant Radio and discuss how a Charismatic can be discerning and avoid the dangers of hyper-charismania.
Join us as we look at some "Prophecies" from 2020 & have some lively back and forth about the nature of prophecy and the implications/dangers of false prophecy.
You can find out more about Josh Lewis at
theremnantradio.com/
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As an ex LDS now Christian (for 17 years praise the Lord!) and having the same position as Josh - Cultish almost or everytime y'all question about people or men that use prophecy falsely every example is a person that lead and do lead people after another god or god(s) and a false Gospel. Ex: Joseph Smith Jr. and Jim Jones the cult and Bethel's Bob Jones. They didn't teach people to fellow the God of the Bible or the Gospel that has been delivered once and for all to the Saints. Josh is talking about real biblical CHRISTIANS and the gifts and the need to be church discipline and corporate use of them. This was a bomb conversation! Love and appreciate you brothers in Christ!
I love how ray comfort tells people the gospel and real salvations take place because he uses the word
I got blessed at the Airport Church hopping around like a chicken.
I got blessed from the craziness of Tammy Baker.
I got blessed from stilling in silence at my church on the floor.
I get blessed from washing bathrooms at my church camp.
Stop bashing others and use that energy to go into the streets with Gospel.
@@brooklyn5466 nobody is bashing anybody except you. We are talking about real doctrines of devils which Jesus Christ warned about.
@@elsablue3646
You guys are keeping the holy ghost in the closet.
Holy Ghost means breath and wind in Hebrew and Greek.So it moves in many different directions, colors, pitches, speeds and even in silence.You can not put it in a box.
Moreover, I believe the book of Acts has allot the with movement.( The actual movement of the Holy Ghost.)
@@brooklyn5466 who is you guys? I don't!. I think you are assuming i am in a religion because i commented. I am born again Holy Spirit filled so I dont keep the Holy Spirit in any closets.
@@elsablue3646
Maybe not you but those guys with beards are.
As a "Calvinist" I have felt so uncomfortable with the cessationist view commonly found in reformed circles. I believe that Scripture is clear, earnestly desire... God can accomplish His will through whatever means He deems necessary. The church should seek to give Him all the glory for whatever means He uses and we should ask that God uses us to fulfill His sovereign plan. Maybe God will move the church to repent of cessationism and use it to advance and grow His Kingdom in a mighty way to bring people to repentance and faith in Christ.
I appreciated the love that was displayed in this conversation. This was an excellent example of maintaining unity in the body of Christ and recognizing that He is the cornerstone.
Yes. I like the way you put your thoughts here. And I agree. Cessationism is a heresy that quenches the Holy Spirit. I consider myself lower case penetcostal but I don’t pick up snakes. I do think the Bible is very important and I stay away from hyper charismatic churches like Bethel. But I was a missionary kid and I’ve heard God since I was 10. God speaks to everyone differently but we need to use the Bible to discern the false spirits from the true one as we are good to do (1 John 4:1, 2 Cor 11:14). Satan loves to manipulate emotions in churches.
Yes and that the gospel is the foundation of what we teach. Very important.
I enjoyed this discussion, I'm glad both sides were able to share their thoughts & respect one another.
Thanks sis!
I'm grateful for the uncomfortable conversation and the pressure you put on one another.
Two of my fave podcasts doing a crossover episode! Love it. So thankful for you guys at Apologia for your apologetic and pro-life and anti-cult strengths! If I visited Arizona I would totally visit your church.
As a charismatic, I am also thankful for Josh and Remnant Radio. He approaches the spiritual gifts conversation in a nuanced and deep way. Kudos to you guys at Apologia for having this conversation, and for interviewing a good representative of the charismatic movement. It's tempting to only focus on the worst representations of our respective camps. Thanks for all you do!
Thank you For the kind words.
Hey. I love this topic. Charismatic here as well. I find it hard to find balanced believers that don’t get weirded out when I say I see things in the spirit but that are not over the top like Bethel.
You rock Josh! @Remnant Radio!!
Wisdom, logic, humility, tact, and care.
So excited for this episode. I'm a HUGE Remnant Radio fan as of late. Those guys do such a great job thinking responsibly AND biblically.
I appreciate what remnant radio are trying to achieve.
When I was a charismatic so many of us were anti-theology because we we thought we were all about the “heart knowledge” than filling ourselves with what we called “head knowledge”.
It’s no wonder most of us got caught up with every wind of doctrine.
I like the way Remnant take the time to have a conversation about church doctrine, church history and also in some way helping all charismatics and non charismatics to understand and define terms to see where we are in agreement.
It’s important work.
Hopefully one day, with their help, the Bethels and the Todd White types can become more orthodox in what they teach and practice.
We can disagree about the secondary issues but we can also look out for one another to ensure the message we preach is always the gospel of Jesus Christ and that our primary doctrines don’t end up outside of what the Church has always taught in its history.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I, too, liked them before their false theology was revealed.
@@ratedrreformed8452 G’day mate.
I was talking of Renmant Radio specifically.
As Christians that desire to bare the fruits of the Holy Spirit, let us not be conceited in our critique.
As long as we all can agree on the primary doctrines of the faith we can then lovingly disagree on some of the secondary doctrines like the blokes in this episode displayed. Cheers 🍻
I appreciate that Andrew
@@andrewhambling not when said "brothers" continue to perpetuate severe lies about God. Rejecting this idiotic mindset is the sole reason i'm on youtube.
Anyone who says that the Remnant guys aren't brothers, needs to examine their own hearts. Come on!
Great conversation, thank you guys. I’m always conscious of the dangers of using the worst examples of misuse to reject something in principle. I appreciated Josh’s reflection that the benefits of prophecy outweigh the risks, and the creating of a distinction between Biblical prophecy and unbiblical prophecy.
Thanks Stewart I appreciate the feedback
LOVE JOSH and Remnant Radio! He's so balanced ✝🙏♥
Great conversation guys. I love hearing these two, surprisingly similar sides talk it out. I had lots more in common with what Josh was saying than I thought I would.
Glad to hear it.
Josh, what you said was wonderful. Thanks
Many churches that claim they are not cessationist say "but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way" (1 Cor 14:40) but they NEVER arrange for it. They say they believe God can heal but if you tried to pray for a healing in the church gathering they would stop you.
For what it’s worth, I think that group of churches is shrinking.
I grew up in a Charismatic church and now consider myself somewhere in the middle. Some gifts were for the establishment of the church and some continue. Defining which gifts continue is a long conversation, but I think that it is important that we define the gifts before we start writing them off. Prophesy, for example, can be interpreted to be speaking a word of truth (from the Bible) into someone's life. If prophesy is defined as predicting the future, then I don't think that gift persists. I also don't believe in the modern office of "prophet", but rather that the Holy Spirit can speak through a believer into another believer's life. Us that grew up in the Charismatic church and left have the proclivity to flip to the exact opposite side, but I think turning the faucet from hot to cold can be just as detrimental to growing in God's grace. God bless you brothers and sisters.
As a careful continuationist, these are my two favorite podcasts, and I have LOVED watching you come together.
Thanks for having this conversation guys. I came up in this middle ground. It was called "Reformed Charismatic". It wasn't until I went out into the "real world" that I realized I was the weird one.
You mean studying the Scriptures while not denying the presence of the Spirit in His people
@@denvercrucifixion5928 Well Said 👍⚓
Thanks for this. A very balanced discussion with a respectful tone. I appreciate Josh Lewis’s grounding in scripture and calling out charismanic penterascals…
One of the other confusions about prophecy is that it is thought of primarily as "fortune telling." But in reality "the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy." It is primarily words of wisdom and knowledge that compliment the written Word. That is why we are all called to prophecy Words of wisdom in the Spirit for the furtherance of the Gospel and the edification of our brothers and sisters. The future for telling is just an aspect that lends credence to a person's testimony.
@@denvercrucifixion5928 rereading this... I must have misunderstood what you were saying there!! lol sorry
@@BEABEREAN10 all good
I hate that much of prophecy has become what I can ‘crystal balling God’, instead of seeking to grow in our walk with Christ and discipleship.
Yeah…I wish they would have defined “prophecy” before speaking about it for 45 minutes. It seems like they were focusing on “predicting the future” and having some kind of specific revealed knowledge (eg the person wrestling with suicide).
I believe the most important work of the Spirit is that he has inspired and preserved the Scriptures so we can all read the actual Word of God. That’s amazing!
Josh has a lot of good points. I can’t help but agree with most of what he says. There does seem to be differences between Old Testament prophets relaying the word for word, word of God, and New Testament gift of prophecy. I feel most gifts of prophecy given to whomever nowadays are mostly pertaining to there own personal lives or others around them maybe in there church. But should still be treated very seriously and should be spoken about with careful wisdom.
I hope the conversation keeps going. He didn't answer the alien question, and I honestly could have listened to another 2 hours. Great conversation! I love the way Josh articulated his position. Jesus bless him and his ministry and Apologia/ Cultish ministries!
Great job Josh!! Well done 👏
thanks Josh
Awesome Job Josh! I wrestle with prophecy and physical healing because of the abuses and bad teaching but I really appreciate the clarity with which you spoke about these things.
Wow amazing episode!! Josh really brings the 🔥!
Thanks Al
Thank you for bringing Josh on! I loved this dialogue!
thanks David
Great conversation guys! Thank you!
Thanks Megan
Jesus was 100% Spirit and 100% Truth. Not 50/50. When we emphasize Spirit without Truth you get people falling into lawlessness. When you emphasize Truth apart from Spirit you can land in the ditch of legalism. I love you guys coming together!
Beautifully said, girl!
I really enjoyed this so much I thought it was really good and really helpful so thanks guys for putting this out there hope to see you guys doing it again
Thanks
After spending 8 years in a Four Square fellowship, I left after reading the Reformers. It's wasn't that I saw anything unbiblical from the leadership but rather that I wanted a more deeply theological presentation from the pulpit. I did witness what I call "charismatic pretense" by more Pentecost-centered believers but I just chalked it up to immaturity.
Love brother Josh and Mike! Thx for the discussion! Forgot brother Miller too! 😇 Good old basement boy! 🤣😂🤣😂
Thanks Lady M
Josh you did a good Job bro. Wouldn't watch this show if it weren't for him on here for this episode. He showed a lot more patience and wisdom than I ever could, I've Been around cessationists my entire Christian life and I just don't have the patience Josh showed. again Good Job.
Thanks Mark. The guys at apologia are great. We spent the whole day hanging out before the interview and the evening hanging out after the interview.
It’s easy to be patient with friends. But I also didn’t feel as if the conversation required that much patience. I’ve looked up to the guys at apologia for a long time
I would call myself more Pentecostal than charismatic. Appreciate your concern about there being balanced view and practice. I really have some problems outrageous things that go on. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the gifts verses and offices of church leaders.
Phenomenal episode guys! Well done!
Thanks Kelly
Thank you for not hiding this behind a paywall like Patreon
Loved this!
thanks Christian
Loved this definitely more like this please!
Great discussion, thanks guys!
Jerimiah my brother I say this in love Your questions are so long that they become sermons
Yes. I agree. Sometimes Jeff Durbin does that too
It seems his mind is going so quickly in his questions he veers off on some tangents trying to get all the questions out at once. Sometimes I find myself saying just one question brother let’s get it going.😂
9:50 "CessaSHEonist" 😂 love Sheologians, Cultish, and Apologia. God bless you guys.
Regardless of whether or not you categorize confirmation that comes through a dream or a random phone call from someone you haven't heard from in years as prophesy, it's still private, or extrabiblical, revelation. Private revelation isn't for doctrine and therefore doesn't undermine the authority of scripture.
Agreed
Well said.
Enjoyed it, gents!!
Josh and I have disagreements, but I do think he brought up some compelling points. I’m really am not okay with anyone condemning him for areas that are complex and require a discussion not a bashing. I say this as a former YWAMer, former hyper-charismatic, and charismatic cult survivor… Josh and the guys at Remnant have helped me make my way through a ton of garbage without throwing my faith away. Please be mature and treat this BROTHER, I repeat BROTHER, with some grace
This is awesome.
Thanks Seth
"is there anyone who is out there struggling with suicide?"
Is not a prophecy, that's a question - a valid question that will get a yes in most crowds of 10
Can we get another example?
Hi Cultish, great show, I don't agree with Josh but both sides were so respectful and was a great example of how we should engage one another. 👍👏
I appreciated that too
Oh man!!! The whole debate about Deuteronomy 18 was getting me riled up!!
Me too. Wish I was there to comment on it.
great podcast!!
9:43...this guy is spot on
Really glad to see the hosts nail Josh down on the Deut. 18 passage as he was trying to dismiss it's relevance to false "Prophets" today. Also, John Calvin being on his shirt got me cringing since Calvin would bring the hammer to him for affirming the continuation of the Apostolic gifts today.
Praise God @94:10 prophecy isn't always future telling. 1 Cor 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Hmm as a Christian a couple years in..I haven't avoided the spirit wing of truth and spirit but I've been extremely cautious. My life was internal confusion for over a decade possessed with drugs and depraved sin, I've held onto the truth and I've seen the spirit work from that place in me. But I am no more convinced that charismatic leadership for a church is good. I listened openly and the answers he gave were too vague and loose to relieve my feelings of caution.
I agree 100% its reading an opinion into the text a lot and an argument from silence a few time sprinkled in
That’s too broad I think when you apply ambiguous speaking to “charismatic leadership”
Same
God Bless You Soldier ⚓❤
Church history gives us a good grasp and affirming the doctrines of God's word, and almost nothing of the gifts until the early 1900s, and that movemt has led to much confusion and falsehood in the church. This led me as a former Charismatic for 20 yrs to leave as I searched the word for the truth. Why so much abuse in that movemt, usually poor teaching of God's word and experience desire over the objective truth.
Josh nailed it! Great job Josh. I agree with your interpretation.
Thanks Daniel
Should be a good conversation. I occasionally watch both Remnant Radio and Right Reaponse. So I'm looking forward to this one.
They spew heresy. I hope Jeff tears em a new one.
....Remnant radio, not RRM. Right Response is great.
yeah I lost all respect for them seeing how they tried hard to spoonfeed Todd White basic Christian orthodoxy
My big question related to this, especially as it relates to reformed folks is the call to ministry. How is that different from what careful continuationists like Joshua believe about prophecy? It seems both sides of this conversation have almost identical theology, just expressed and practiced with different emphasis.
Yeah we have a video on our channel called "Bridge building with Cessationist" that talks about this. I think the cessationist community has by in large relaxed their deffinitions and the Charismatic community has beefed up on their theology... a bit. Its caused the distinguishing marker between careful continuationist and cessationist to be blurred. It's almost become a game of semantics. That certainly over simplifies this discussion, but in many situations I find that it rings true
@apologia studios, what would it take to connect with a southern Baptist ministry who may want to plant a church in my area. There is only one Baptist church near me and it is not theological. I live on an island with about 500000 people 470000 of which are Christian or Catholic.
The Old and New Testaments both are full of God showing Himself as Supernatural.
I think if you do a follow up. I would love to hear how each side defines prophecy (from scripture). Thanks
What is your view on Seventh-day Adventist Church ?
Good interview. It does feel a little bit like the remnant radio guys had been prepared for a debate rather than an interview, but none the less it was a nice cross over.
I’ve heard the word “prophesying” being described as proclaiming the words of God. Where do we find the words of God? In scripture. So the reading and exegesis of scripture is prophesying. I would tend to agree with this point of view because I think the future-telling style of prophecy is not necessarily what the New Testament command to desire prophecy was talking about. To desire to proclaim the words of Christ would be something that people should desire.
I agree a clear understanding and explanation of the word is prophesy
Problem with this view is that Paul seems to restrict that role to men while prophecy is not. It's very convenient to lump them together but I don't think it works exegetically.
@@DillonG959 valid point
Amen!
The NT definition of prophecy is found in 1 Cor 14:3 - words of edification, exhortation and comfort. This would be God inspired AND lines up to the word of God, but isn't necessarily done in a time of formal teaching. There is no future telling in this definition and this is something we ALL SHOULD DO as loving Christians. Again, no future telling in this.
It seems the disconnect comes from our failure to see the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12 and differentiate those.
The word of wisdom has to do with Gods wisdom coming on a person to fortell the future (Agabus to Paul).
The word of knowledge is forthtelling (def: to make public) something we didn't know know currently by Gods knowledge - example being Ananias And Saphira's Lie.
All of these should not be practiced as a matter of compulsion but as the spirit wills us. I hope this helps someone!
For sure experience does not overrule factual information. It is simply one data point among many. However, deliverance from the Lord (from guilt and sins particularly) is repeatedly shown in Scripture to be the backing of our furthered growth of faith. It is not a full argument, but it is an critical reality to the believer.
Mic dropped at the end Josh! You nailed it. These guys are brothers but are representing a side of the aisle who are not as willing to look at the scriptures on the matter.
Let the commenting begin 😆....
I got to agree with Jerry about being lead. When Josh calling prophecy and he used the example that if anyone here is thinking about suicide and someone stands up. That’s to much of a general blanket. I could stand up and say (fill in the blank) to something general like anxiety and ppl will probably stand up. To me that’s not prophetic.
With regard to Duet. 18 I would appeal to 1 Kings 13 where a prophet lies about the Word of the Lord and is still referenced as a prophet because he repented, as confirmed by Josiah later 2 Kings 23:18. I would also state that in Duet. Many things were given the death penalty to keep iniquity and idolatry from the camp. This being a shadow for us to learn to apply in our Christian walks. Also, the Scriptures are consistent that is someone prophecies wrongly it is not from God. This often is a deception of the flesh and not inherent heresy. An individual prophecying heresy or falsehood unrepentantly should be excommunicated. A repentant person should not be excommunicated. This is clear.
Please cover Hebrew Roots!!
As someone who is still learning, all of these different terms can be quite confusing. It’s difficult because, as a new believer, I ask myself “what am I?” And “who’s interpretation is correct?”
Read and study the Bible for yourself and the Holyspirit will guide you.
I think Josh did a pretty good job in the Deut. 18 section
Thanks Benjamin. We could probably spend a lot more time with them trying to break down the particulars of that passage but for the amount of ground we were trying to cover. So I tried to give the succinct version
On the note of Deuteronomy 13:1-18, commanding false prophets to be stoned, there were similar punishments for adulterers, blasphemers, violators of the Sabbath, rebellious children, hitting or cursing parents, etc. All of which we could say today could in some senses be forgiven if the person repents.
The standards for the law were much higher because the corruption of sin would stand in the way of the fulfillment of God’s promise, and in the smaller tribal communities, the sin was far more detrimental to the development of their nation than it was after Christ. Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.
In the same way, if the prophecy was wrong and the person repented, it obviously is a grievous sin, but forgiveness should be given, yet trust withheld for a reasonable time until it has been earned again.
Most hyper charismatics I know seem to let their experience interpret Scripture instead of interpreting their experience with Scripture. Most of them seem to study the Bible but not have discernment in a lot of the teachings related to the Spiritual Gifts. I've watched some of it take place and see it definitely not line-up with Scriptural guidelines for tongues and prophecy.
Certainly. But it has more to do with tribalism than actual affects of people who believe in the charismatic gifts. And Jesus and the apostles all believed in the charismatic gifts and practice them but none of them were flaky trying to justify everything with experience.
I only say that to agree with you. The charismatic movement needs reform. But I also want to clarify to those watching there’s nothing inherent within believing that the gifts are for today that makes you someone who is experience driven
Can you please clarify which episode is discussing the Trump prophesies?
I think what Josh is referring to at the end of the podcast in relation to RC Sproul would be “word of knowledge”, not prophecy
Does anyone have that story of the supernatural prophetic type story with Douglas Wilson?
I know Mark Driscoll interviewed Doug Wilson on the charismatic gifts, and Doug shared a testimony about his personal experience with the supernatural. I think Doug termed it one way, Mark Driscoll another, yet agreed it was a genuine Biblically sound experience. If I recall the interview properly interestingly Wilson termed his experience as "God's providence." Was a great interview see if you can find on UA-cam.
@@ObiWonGinobili ua-cam.com/video/8vEiqqfvsh0/v-deo.html ??
When did he corrected a prophets? He be doing it every day, hourly or every minute.
There seems to be a distinction being made between a false teacher and a false prophet in one section here.
But Peter seems to warn us that false prophets of the “old time” are the false teachers of the new/ that they are the same. Thoughts ?
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
2 Peter 2:1
I see nothing in the old testament text whatsoever that would limit the standard of a false prophet to one kind of prophet that says: “I’m bringing in the new covenant”. I think that is a way to justify people calling themselves prophets today who prophesy falsely and still want to be seen as real prophets and I think it is very dangerous.
If someone does not have perfect theology, are they a false teacher?
A little late to the game here but it seems Josh mixed up categories here or is inconsistent on this point. He says prophecy is to be taken and discerned through the body. He then says he got a vision of an evil face and had it on his heart to mention suicide. He did not bring this before the body for discernment. Having a word of knowledge is not prophecy.
How were people in Biblical time serving and sharing Christ? They didn’t have The New Testament and gentiles did have Old Testament teaching either but still were believers and shared their Faith from there personal experience. How else were they supposed to explain their relationship with God other then the feeling that came from they’re believing in Christ.
"PR Spin Mode, egotistical, fleshy christians..."
How is that different than the unrepentant category? Seems like the only difference is, one is overtly rebellious about it and the other is sheepishly rebellious.
God be praised, in reference to @63:10 John 10:36: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
If anyone says I think I heard this message from the Lord. I would say, You think you heard this from the Lord? I think the Lord does not play games with peoples minds, where they are not sure. God knows how to speak clearly.
I agree with you. I do have a question though. How do you take Samuel hearing God three times and not discerning Who was speaking to him, and thought it was the voice of a man - Eli the priest.
@@jbazile6873 he was a child and he heard an audible voice
@@jbazile6873 Good morning. Just wanted to add this in there. 1 Samuel 3:7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, and the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him. This verse explains that Samuel did not know about the Lord and therefore would not expect to hear from the Lord.
In John 11:51 the High priest prophecied about Jesus and it does not even seem like he knew he was prophecying.
"He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,"
A lack of discernment of God's directions never comes from God's lack of clear communication but from our lack of proper hearing. As Jonathan Edward more clearly enunciates it is the uncultivated thorns of the flesh that choke the discernment of God's Word
Ok, are you saying that our testimony is not important? Muslims are often taught the questions to ask to shut Christians down, so yes we need more teaching about how to respond. However our personal testimonies are incredibly valuable.
We have to be careful to know what we believe and why, but it has to be more than intellectual. We can believe the correct theology but if we don't 'know' Jesus, we have somehow missed the point. Sorry have seen intellectual pride at work, however value the wisdom of being well-grounded in Biblical theology. Most of us won't have that at high levels and should pursue deeper understanding, but be cautious of pride sneaking in, and failing to pursue and maintain a deepening relationship and dependence on Christ. I actually watch remnant radio for the purpose of being on guard against false teaching and building theological confidence. Appreciate the work and the back-and -forth discussions, and genuinely appreciate that you aim to avoid being mockers and scoffers in this.
Was Daniel wrong when he prophesied the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ?
Actually it was Jesus who predicted the "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24.
its interesting that he is defining prophecy in a way that seems like it should be the meaning of "word of knowledge"
There is no biblical definition for “word of knowledge“. Just the phrase is mentioned but it is never explained or detailed.
@@TheRemnantRadio In the esv, ch12 v8 it lists "utterance of knowledge" and "utterance of wisdom". How would you guys define it? some parts of this discussion, especially in the back half seem like they would be better categorized as those gifts rather than calling everything prophecy. Especially since in Revelation, it says the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Christ.
Sounds kind of odd for continuationists to only have meaning for half of the sign gifts they believe continue lol
@@rayortiz6189 here is what I have
One of the other confusions about prophecy is that it is thought of primarily as "fortune telling." But in reality "the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy." It is primarily words of wisdom and knowledge that compliment the written Word. That is why we are all called to prophecy Words of wisdom in the Spirit for the furtherance of the Gospel and the edification of our brothers and sisters. The future telling is just an aspect that lends credence to a person's testimony.
I would say they are on a different level. And there is a big difference between thus sayeth the Lord and Holy Spirit aided teaching, words for someone, or evangelizing. When the Spirit gives knowledge that is not possessed by the individual that is the gift of prophesy. Thus sayeth the Lord is something said by the office of prophet. If only we had some reformed people who believed what the Bible says about gifts they could help us make lists :)
@@rayortiz6189 and for 100 people who claim the office of prophet there is probably 1 prophet and he won't claim the office because of how badly it has been trashed
@@denvercrucifixion5928 no actually there is not 1 prophet, God last spoke to us in His Son, Hebrews 1
fight night. Joshua Lewis vs Andrew Super Sleuth. Anyone else get this vibe?
I didn’t lol
@@TheRemnantRadio I know it shouldn’t be this way but I’m ‘fanboying’ right now. Lol. I really appreciate Remnant content. It’s been super helpful in my journey in this last year or so. You guys are great and an absolute blessing. I’m a part of a church who has roots in charismatic/Pentecostal and borderline word of faith leaning. What you all provide has helped me in balancing and to be able to speak into some of what the leadership believes. Thank you!
Awe. Thanks@@jorgemorales1575
Loved the interview, but "practicing discernment" felt more like "picking and choosing which texts are prescriptive based on what I want to believe".
We practice discernment through the Holy Spirit. It's a gift
There is such a disconnect with the interpretation of 1 Cor 12 - it's clearly called the discerning of spirits, not the gift of discernment. This is what allows people AS THE SPIRIT WILLS to experience Spiritual things that are normally not a part of our 5 senses. ex: visions, angels, demons, the audible voice of God. This gift has nothing to do with telling if someone is doctrinally correct or if they do or don't have the spirit of God.
@@BEABEREAN10 can you back that up with Scripture
@@denvercrucifixion5928 @Denver Crucifixion well first of all it clearly says that this gift is practiced as the Spirit wills. It's not something we can do at will. Secondly, It doesn't take a special gift to discrern if something is biblical or not. We know it by the bible itself, that is how we test the spirits. Do they proclaim Jesus who is the Word of God.
It seems the NASB translates 1 Cor 14:10 the best as the "Distinguishing (Def: to recognize) of spirits."
What did Jesus and the NT believer was in power with? The gifts of the spirit! They were these same spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 as the spirit willed or allowed. They didn't do those miracles whenever they wanted to.
That being said...
God, angels, and demons are all around but we cannot see or hear them. So since we cannot with our NATURAL senses see angels, Jesus, the holy spirit, hear the voice of God, hear the voice of a demon or experience visions...we would need God to give us a gift in that moment in order to experience those things.
Examples
-Peters Vision where Jesus told him to kill and eat
- Mary encountering the angels
- The spirit falling on Jesus like a dove
- Jesus hearing and speaking to demons in possessed people
- Angel showing up to to prison for Paul and Silas
God has to allow us to experience these things, that's why it's a gift that is used in the moment. I don't believe that God would gift us to discern other people faults and failures in theology as this spiritual gift is often portrayed.
God does however use the word of knowledge to call out sins and error, like when Jesus met the woman at the well and knew by the word of knowledge that she had multiple husbands.
@@BEABEREAN10 I wouldn't disagree with this entirely. I believe discerning of spirits can involve extra sensory perception (the good kind), but discernment is often mentioned in the New Testament as distinguishing between good and evil. I wouldn't say doctrines necessarily either. I would put it under a larger umbrella, but I appreciate your perspective as well.
The point of difference here seems only to be with Josh’s broad view of the gift of prophesy. As a subscriber to both Apologia & Remnant channels I have seen Josh use a broader definition in other discussions as well, and I believe it to be an error of definition. Josh is using the phrase “gift of prophesy” as an overarching umbrella term to include multiple gifts of the Holy Spirit: gift of words of wisdom, word of knowledge, gift of dream interpretation, gift of foretelling the future, all as “gifts of prophesy.”
However evidently Deuteronomy 18 is very clear as one of the panel members stated that the gift of prophesy is concerning foretelling the future. I wonder what the Hebrew word is for that and if there is really any leeway upon which to define the word “prophesy” very broadly as Josh does. As this corrective Scripture doesn’t seem to be directed at all towards the gift of word of knowledge or the gift of dream interpretation, but specifically towards one who is proclaiming something of the future when they indeed are not hearing it from God.
However of course it goes without saying that concerning any of our spiritual gifts we can certainly learn God’s heart in this passage concerning spiritual gifts and we must be attentive to how we utilize our gifts and be sure we are saying or doing things in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
I believe however Josh’s error is coming from what was discussed as the ills of the pentecostal/charismatic and hyper-charismatic communities is that most of these churches simply are not caring or are lazy when it comes to their theology and even concerning some doctrines as well. As someone who currently attends an AG church (Assemblies of God for those who don’t know) in MN I have seen this intellectual weakness and or intellectual laziness. For that matter, I have attended an AG church since 2008 and actually have never heard the gift of prophesy taught on at my particular church, only speaking in tongues or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As a charismatic I have had to learn some of my core theology and doctrines from those outside Pentecostalism.
So regarding the definition of “gift of prophesy” in the Charismatic circles I have been in, many Christians (lay people and pastors) have used the term “prophetic” and will always throw that term around, but in a very broad sense to include many different supernatural things and or spiritual gifts. Once a fellow Charismatic told me that God’s calling for my life had to be confirmed “in the prophetic” for example. Which I am not necessarily debating that point, only in that how the usage of the word “prophesy” or “prophetic” is used too broadly, and is really a lazyily defined word and typically broadly used to include all things supernatural and or concerning particular spiritual gifts.
Cessationists we need you to help us get out of the ditches we Charismatics tend to fall into, however I hope you realize the unbiblical position you hold and can repent and find the proper Biblical middle ground, by God’s grace. I hope you can at least be open to the moving of the Holy Spirit in your life concerning the more supernatural gifts like gifts of healing, or word of knowledge. Go out an evangelize and get off the theological arm chair and God will open up your eyes to what He is able and willing to do through you by His sovereign hand within His will and boundaries of His Word. Overall though great and healthy discussion, have loved and gained much from both ministries!
As far as Jeremiah Johnson he did repent about Trump prophecies but still continues to declare prophecy.
My issues with Remnant Radio is the character of the men. I’ve known for years that I disagreed with their charismatic theology, but I never thought much more of it. Until I began to see them act really disrespectfully towards other faithful teachers, in the Reformed camp. I watched them do videos where all they do is get together and basically cackle and gossip, like middle school children about other men. Never providing any mature discussion, or reasoning for their objections with sound scripture. It was gross, and childish, and not becoming of a teacher of God’s Word.
And then I went on to comment, like any other viewer, stating that I found their behavior to be sinful, and immature. One of the 3 main guys, was quick to comment back to me. And he literally argued with me in the comments, and cherry picked a scripture completely out of context to try and prove his opinions. I looked up the scripture. Then responded back quoted the entire scripture he sited. And then stated the true context of that scripture. And I try to comment pretty void of feelings, as I’m a more logic brain type. But this man, was just all up in his feelings with his responses to me.
And that’s really the quality of a man’s character that anyone thinks they should be sitting under? The kind of man that flies off the handle at a woman in the UA-cam comments, thats says “hey, I think you guys are behaving sinfully here.” Absolutely not. Immature boys that can’t separate their feelings, from their doctrine, have no business teaching anyone God’s Holy Word. And their treatment towards Chris R. is disgusting.
Has anyone at Remnant Radio repented publicly to Chris?? I think not.
I saw that here too with Josh. Andrew and Jeff held back a lot, but you could tell Josh was mocking them lowkey.
I wish Andrew would have pushed on how prophecy is so generalized and broad, unlike biblical prophecy. When suicide pops in your head in a service with a great number of people, it is obvious that at least ONE person would have been going through that, if not more.
@@jorgetorrescalvo9509 Yes I saw the same things in this video. It’s frustrating…. There are times to give grace, and times to confront someone leading thousands. I wish they would have given at least a little bit of a strong stance on something. But they played super nice instead. :-/
See that’s your problem, you think that the “apostolic age” was only when the early church was on the earth the original 12 apostles and Paul. But there are Apostles and prophets today, the 5 fold ministry as laid out in scripture.
1. Prophecy (Grk.- propheteia) - speech that is NOT conceived by human thought or reasoning & reports what God reveals or brings to mind; it can be a foretelling (predicting the future) or simply making known the will of God. (Acts 3:21; 11:27-28; 13:1-2; 21:8-11)(1 Cor. 11:5)
*As such, anything not in line with the scriptures must be rejected. (Isaiah 8:20)(Deut. 13:1-5)(Jude 1:8)
*Because it is spoken by man & prone to error, it MUST be tested. (1 Cor. 14:29-33)(1 Thess. 5:19-21)
a. Prophecy - can also be a forth telling (open proclamation of the scriptures) since they are a more sure & excellent word of prophecy. (2 Peter 1:19)(Prov. 31:1)
b. Prophesy - at times can mean to praise/worship God with singing & dancing as was the case with King Saul. (1 Sam. 10:10-11)
excellent! I'm not sure that Josh holds this view or not but I wish he would have started here to make the arguments more clear. The future telling has more to do with the Gift of the Word of wisdom since we get gods wisdom on something that is going to happen.
Ya that clip about Jesus needing forgiveness is taken way out of context not that I support bethel, but all the guy in the video was saying is that he needed to forgive Jesus for what His church did. And maybe forgive isn’t the best word, but he is clearly talking about not giving Jesus the heat for what other people did. Hopefully that makes sense
Ive never seen the clip, Matthew. Could you attach it here?
It appears to me that you're either consciously or subconsciously trying to make an excuse for something that's clearly heretical. Not just you, but I've heard other Christians who try to make excuses for Bill Johnson's heretical teachings by saying, "that might not have been the best word" or "he didn't really mean that", trying to get around clear false teaching. I know you're not a defender of Bethel, or so you say, but I think you're wrong in your assessment here.
I'm guessing you guys were banking on us not watching the original video because you conveniently cut out Todd White's explanation about why he did what he did with that Muslim.
Not saying you have to agree with his reasoning but at least show it so everyone can decide for themselves.
All you "discernment ministries" are the same.
That’s not entirely true. I actually tried to give Todd credit before because he was sharing the gospel and even mentioned what he had said in his breakdown session about fearing for the man’s soul.
Jonah said the people would be destroyed and he wasn’t a false prophet. Maybe we can figure out everything about God and just obey him like the word says 🤷🏼♂️
I am not a cessationist...but this brothers line of arguementation is reaching and makes my head hurt a bit.
Flat earthers who don’t believe in Gods creation. There’s a huge group of flat earthers out there again.
There’s Christians who also believe the flat earth.
@@aptginc they aren’t true Christians if they believe that. Flat earth is a lie.
@@sandrawolfe7298 Well this is not something that is a sin. Just a strange idea.
@@aptginc I never said it was a sin. God is not the author of lies. He speaks and teaches truth, wether we want to believe and hear it or not. God is not the author of confusion either. His believers and followers will know and discern what truth is.
And some that do.
His example about Apollos was incorrect. Apollos was teaching accurately but he did not have knowledge about Christ. Aquila and Priscilla explained the word more accurately.
Abusus Non Tollit Usum
This video doesn't age well after the truth of Mike Bivkle came out in late 2023.