UNCOVERING THE MOTIVES BEHIND TOMMY VERCETTI'S BETRAYAL OF SONNY FORELLI IN GTA VICE CITY
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- Hello there, dear folks! In this episode from Grand Theft Auto Vice City, we are going to cover another case of betrayal in the Grand Theft Auto franchise - Tommy's betrayal of Sonny Forelli. In the storyline, we can find quite a number of moments where people decide to betray. Lance Vance is a good example of this and a long time ago we managed to analyze the story to find some more clues and hints suggesting what will happen. What’s more, many people believe that Tommy Vercetti could be one of the most loyal characters in the series. It's true in the majority of cases, but there was one occasion where Vercetti had broken his rule. What were the reasons? Find out in this video. :)
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#gtavc #gtavicecity #gta #lancevance #tommyvercetti #gta #grandtheftauto
Sonny's biggest mistake was underestimating Tommy. Because of that Sonny got killed causing the Forelli crime family to slowly lose power and fall apart over the years.
Definitely! Cause just think about it... Tommy was not an average soldier of the Forelli mafia, he even survived the set-up in Harwood. This guy should have been watched constantly by some Forelli soldiers sent from Liberty City after what happened 🤔 Instead, Sonny decided to just make threats and we already see it was simply not enough.
@@gaminginvestigators Sonny really underestimated Tommy. The Harwood incident should have let Sonny know that Tommy wasn't easy to take out.
Yeah, even salvatore leone acknowledged that since sonny died, his family weakened enough 4 the sindacco family 2 rise up…
@@midniteryder_3-16 despite how horrible sonny was, he was able to kept his family on top until his death
When tommy got out sonny either had to kill him or treat him like a diva trying to appease him, maybe giving him a big part of vice city, not putting him in charge as maybe he could grow too much powerful but still enough to show him he was a key part of the organization in order to keep him loyal
Tommy knew he was a means to an end the whole time. Even if Sonny wasn’t gonna kill him, he was never gonna let him have Vice City in any significant way.
Well, the Harwood incident certainly gave him some thoughts regarding Sonny being unfaithful to him 🙂 Mixing this up with a drug deal gone wrong, absolutely no support, and the fact that Tommy should make something more out of himself, it's no wonder he decided to make this step forward 😅
@@gaminginvestigators you can do *alot* of thinking in 15 years. You could even argue that it was his plan to betray (or at least escape) the Forelli’s from jump, but the botched drug deal threw a wrench in that. An ‘in over his head’ plan without people like Cortez and taking Diaz’s spot, but certainly not something that never crossed his mind. It might not even have been that sophisticated, if the deal went down correctly Tommy might’ve took the money and escaped to another country to start a new life. Since he had such little support watching him it would’ve taken weeks or even months to find him and try to get payback.
It's true Tommy chose to cut ties with Sonny. If Sonny have some more guys from the start then it would have put Tommy on a leash. Sonny's mistake was setting him loose that will came back to bite him. I guess the Ambush that Diaz caused was the best thing to ever happen to Tommy
And he also knew that if he said to Sonny “I don’t care about your money or your drugs.” He’d get 2 in the head, a ride in the trunk of a Towncar, and a lovely pair of cement shoes.
You say what you need to to survive.
I always thought it was sonny it set this Shiit up because he doesn't like tommy
I'd like to think of this "betrayal" to Sonny as revenge for setting Tommy into a trap at Harwood where he served 15 years of prison
Well i always thought that was the reason
Not just tommy's ambition, but he had history with sonny and he just waited years for the right moment to execute operation: payback
Yeah, partially that's how we can see it. But personally, we believe there was something more to it than "just revenge" 😅
That's in liberty city Harwood
@@gaminginvestigators But it was mostly revenge. Also starting his own family.
that is actually the reason, tommy say "sonny i will make you pay for the 15 years of my life you took" before killing sonny at his mansion
Props to the team who recreated the Harwood event of Tommy in Liberty City (which I wish Rockstar showed us what exactly happened in that incident). That's one of the reasons why Tommy is my favorite character. He killed all 11 hitmen by himself in that incident. That's why he was called "The Harwood Butcher". Such a badass.
Not hard to imagine that he got tricked into a secluded place and ambushed by the Hitmen.
We also really like this recreation 🙂 It's quite useful in storytelling so we hope that people will continue making such projects 😃 And yeah, Tommy is a frickin' amazing guy 🤘
IT ISN'T THESE GUYS THAT DID THAT VIDEO. Stop taking credit yo! It's a UA-camr named LoadgamePL that did it and he has done MULTIPLE recreations of GTA.
If we think about it... that was nothing. He eliminated all of Diaz's men while saving Lance. That's something even bigger in my opinion.
I often wonder if one of the people Tommy killed in Harwood was Tony Ciprianis Father. its the right year and time period and Tonys father was highly respected. It does make sense and his father could of been a made man who Tommy killed in Harwood
Tommy knew sonny was using him from the beginning and promise was nothing but gaslighting coz Tommy knew from the beginning that he deserved better than being sonny's servant..
Fair enough I guess 😅
If I’m Tommy I woulda killed Sonny in LC, that sotb putted Tommy in jail for 15 years anyway.
I don't think so, why would he throw away the phone in frustration right after making that promise?
Moreover, Tommy also shouted at Sonny that Sonny took 15 years from Tommy, for what Tommy will make him pay. In which Sonny said he owned him and those 15 years were Sonny's to spend. I think this dialogue in the final mission explains everything, which has been left out in this video
That's right 😃 However, we managed to leave this out of the episode as we were going to talk about only the reasons Tommy decided to betray Sonny. Still, good catch, during "Keep Your Friends Close" Sonny ensures Tommy that his suspicions regarding Sonny were true indeed 😉
Of course the power is his not tommy
Sonny betrayed Tommy back in 1971. Sonny set Tommy up not once but twice. The 1st time was in TellBerg in Brocklyn in 1971. The 2nd time was in Miami in 1986. Tommy was meant to be killed both times. The difference is Tommy managed to kill all his attackers but got 15 years stolen from him in 1971 but Sonny sacrificed Harry and to make the 2nd ambush look unsuspicious and Tommy escaped by the skin of his teeth in 1986. Sonny already had the coke and the "money" on his desk by the time Tommy called Sonny. Sonny yelling at Tommy was just an act. Tommy realized Sonny planned both ambushes so Tommy disowned Sonny, the Forellis, and the ComMission..
Thank You This The Comment I Was Looking For Like I Know I Wasn't Tweekin In The Beginning When Sonny Call Him I Knew That Was The Exchange Money 💵 And Drugs At 12 years Old😂
Nah, Not Possible, The Money And Drugs Were from somewhere else, Nothing can Reach From Vice city to Liberty so quickly, In span of 6 hours atleast 😅😅
To me it’s simple if tommy just got sonny his money back he gained nothing…he had more to gain by branching off on his own.
Yeah, establishing your own organization is pretty much one of the most important reasons for this turn of events 🙂
Tommy had a right to take down
The forreli family,after they set him up to do a 15 year prison bid
He was 35 years old in game and he went to jail at 20 years old! He missed the golden age of his life because of sonny!
Good points. That bugged me for years, I also believe Tommy knew something we didn't.
In the final mission, final shootout, when confronting Sonny, Tommy says: "You took 15 years frorm me Sonny." - referring to 15 years in prison.
So Tommy somehow new that Sonny betrayed ihim n Liberty city, but we never found out when.
If he knew before coming to Vice City, would he serve as Sonny's loyal soldier or would he rather had his revenge right after prison? Maybe he was planning to do something after the deal with Vance brothers.
Either way Tommy had every right to leave Sonny in the dirt
Mitch alluded to it when they first met..he basically told Tommy he was set up
God damn your phone is trippin
tommy has been betrayed multiple times by the people he trusted the lance betrayal was a huge turning point of his life and also i think he concentrated more on crime family because he seems to be very much active in gta sa story
how is he active in gta sa story?
@@amarieiantonio-adrian9493 in GTA SA the introduction movie you can see ken trying to call Tommy and Tommy doesn't answer him cause of the fact that he kept doing too much coke, after that what happens a little down the line is cj manages to cross paths with Rosenberg and he calls him tommy in one mission
@@theadultsaretalking007 I actually never noticed that fact. That's a pretty neat detail!
Uhm, we wouldn't necessarily say that Tommy was "active" in the GTA SA story, he is mentioned to two-three times at most, so... As for the betrayals, honestly, we don't know whether he witnessed being betrayed before the Harwood incident. What's more, we are not even taking Lance's betrayal into account since it happened pretty much after Tommy made his decision. However, we saw on a few occasions that Sonny didn't care about Vercetti at all - and that could be one of the factors that led to Tommy turning his back on the Forellis 🙂
@@gaminginvestigators sure thing and you remember rosenberg calling vercetti on gta sa right and his manager picking the call up so it means he was active
I AM worrying, Tommy. That's my style because I seem to have this problem in my life with unreliable people. Don't be an unreliable person, Tommy, please.
Do us both a favor. I’m looking forward to hear again from you…
Like bro how someone's content could be this good, you're goated bro
Thank you so much, Ali! It's a big pleasure to make those videos for you and the others that are supporting our channel 🤘
You're right.. Tommy betrayed Sonny cause he thought that Sonny didn't care about him after everything including his rottenness in Jain for 15 years.. Tommy came to senses throughout the game slowly and then when Sonny showed up all of once in vice City to claim Tommy's money and businesses, Tommy thought it was the time he put an end to this . And thus he did
I love reading all these different comments, it's good to see so much passion for my all time fav GTA. Tommy will always be my favorite
I have an idea of a theory that you might want to cover. What was the relationship between Umberto and Leo Teal? Umberto calls Leo's phone and gets in touch with Tommy, so i think it's possible that Umberto might have been calling him for an assassination job. Maybe Mr Teal is the one who killed the Haitian Ganglord that was being buried in Two Bit Hit.
Now that's quite an interesting observation! 🤔 We know that Umberto Robina and Leo Teal knew each other and Leo was doing something for him too. The question is whether he was able to commit the murder of the previous Haitian ganglord... We will have to analyse this case before drawing conclusions, but thanks for letting us know about your theory 🙂
Sonny was out there to use Tommy once again. It's clear as day that Sonny did not care about a childhood friend at all, I've heard a theory that Sonny was jealous of Tommy's rise in the ranks and his success as a mafioso in Liberty and that's why he sent him to Harwood and after coming out of the prison, far away, because he knew Tommy is not someone who's easily controlled.
Anyhow, Tommy is definitely one of the most iconic gta characters of all time. Even though it's probably impossible, I'd want to see him again someday, a few references to him and Ray Leota will be great to see in gta 6.
But Ray Liotta died in 2022.
Even if Rockstar did get Tommy back in one of the installments, people won't accept that comeback without the voice actor who passed away last year.
Straight facts, my man 🙂 As for the references to Vercetti in GTA 6, we are absolutely sure that there will be many of them, perhaps a square named after him as a tribute? Rockstar North has all the floor to make it great for us (if we ever see this installment lol)
@@gaminginvestigators I would like to see a golden statue of Tommy Vercetti somewhere in one of the Islands. That would be great.
@@PEN1killer yeah, if Rockstar contacted Ray Leotta for a few lines of dialog perhaps before his death as gta 6 has been a long time in development I would be incredibly grateful. But knowing that he and Rockstar were not on good terms, I don't have hope that I'd hear/see that. RIP Ray Leotta.
Sonny literally set Tommy up a second time with the ambush. Tommy’s no fool and knew this. The only way out was to build an empire and go against the Forelli Family.
I always thought that Sonny was betraying Tommy this whole time, Sonny set up the ambush and he was supposed to get killed alongside Harry and Lee. The next cutscene with Sonny shows the drugs on the table but the introduction scene implies that Sonny never touched drugs before that deal. Sonny was betraying Tommy and then using Tommy to take over for him, Tommy saw himself as a pawn and got one up on Sonny and took him out.
wait wasn't it diaz behind the ambush?
@@MJubeily They could've worked together
This video kinda went all over the place and never actually touched any real ground. Your comment explains exactly what happened. The fact that the drugs AND money are already on Sonny's table is a way to show us that Sonny was still making schemes against Tommy right from the get go; he putted Tommy in a spot where he would have to work in order to prove he wasn't involved while slowly making the heavy lifting (taking over Vice City), then, Sonny would paid him a visit expecting that he would kill Tommy and the Forelli would take over Vercetty's operation/family. The reason why Sonny tried to betray Tommy starting back in Liberty City is because Vercetty was getting a lot of highlight for showing how smart and strong he was, Sonny felt threatened and tried to get rid of him
@@MJubeily It's Diaz and Sonny, but not together i explain you. With his connection with Cortez and Rosenberg, he know manything about Vice City and the crime environnement, he know Ricardo Diaz is very nervous and to greedy. He manage to organize the deal with the direct competitors of Diaz, the Dominican Vance Brother and he manage with use Gonzalez to unleash this rumor to Ricardo Diaz's ears, Diaz very angry about that, he decide to cut the deal himself with send assassins. But i think assassins work for Sonny too, Sonny need Ricardo Diaz like "scapegoat" for the failed deal, maybe for create a drug war against him or to destroy his crime empire. But it's not a coincidnce if Tommy survive, the assassins had instructions to not kill Tommy, but kill everyone, and if you look the cutscene they didn't shoot car when Tommy escape. Sonny need Tommy alive all aong to make trouble in Vice City and maybe after with the commission blessing, kill Tommy and take the control of Vice city without Diaz in charge. Sonny is a very mastermind of manipulation but i think he really underrestimate Tommy intelligence, He obviously see him like a dumb puppet, this was his biggest mistake.
Yeah if sonny money was actualy stolen i bet sonny would of fly to vice city that same day but he did steal the drug andsaved his money and act angry with tommy so he could get more money or he tough tommy will get kill in vice city trying to get the "stolen goods" but seeing tommy taking over vice city and surviving sonny became more angry and had to act againg calling tommy to remind of the " stolen" money plus decide to take avantage and take over tommy business but failed😅😂
Is it really a betrayal if Tommy realizes he was already being betrayed? Even if so, Tommy also likely knew that Sonny was likely unfair to a lot in the organization, and in taking action, likely was actually taking the lead that others should have before.
Just to clarify an error: When initially on the phone with Sonny, explaining the situation, Tommy actually says "You've got my personal ASSURANCE I'm going to get you your money back...". Personal Insurance would likely involve having some kind of policy drafted, and require a premium, though to note that insurance needs to be taken out before something happens, not after the fact.
Well, what you see depends on where you stand. 😁 And thanks for telling us about the mistake, we managed to fix it immediately after seeing your comment, so thanks again 🤘
Strange. I always thought that Sonny set the ambush as we see drugs and money in "An Old Friend" scene.
Same as me to be honest
The crazy thing is after the ambush, you see bricks of coke and stacks of money on Sonny's desk
He started to do it way back. I think it started on the third mission when Avery promised Tommy to put in a sleep to everyone who wants to screw him after doing him a favor. Also that's
why he wanted to see Avery again…
and of course:
“The more we learn the less we gotta do when we take this town over” - during a Diaz mission
That's an interesting point in the story to choose while talking about when Tommy started thinking about betrayal 🤔 Furthermore, it's totally possible as it's hard to determine whether it happened earlier or later, so we players can have some headcanons of some sort here 😄
@@gaminginvestigators thanks friend, love the content and how supportive are for your community. Much love ❤️
"I like your style man - real fresh!"
From the moment when Tommy was send to kill one guy and when there was more than one guy. That’s when Tommy realized that he was being set up in a trap.
Then doing 15 years... you can't tell me he wasn't putting the pieces together at that time
Sonny likely was always going to have Tommy whacked. He already tried 15 years prior, but there are other hints.
1) in the intro, one of the capos asks “how is (Ken) going to hold Vercetti’s leash”. He’s asking how will they control him. Why would they want this? Because if Tommy is operating with the backing of the Ferelli family, it’s imperative that Tommy isn’t reckless as he could jeopardize business in Liberty City, or could simply bring a ton of heat down on Sonny if things go badly. But Sonny rebuffs this by saying “We don’t need him to”. This means he’s giving Tommy full reign, because he isn’t going to offer any additional support, and Tommy will take all the heat if something goes wrong. Sonny can deny any involvement. If things go poorly, Tommy takes all responsibility. If things go well, they simply kill Tommy and take everything over.
2) when he says “then we go down, see how he’s doing”, he’s implying that they will take Tommy out at that point. They won’t just be taking tribute, but will overtake the entire operation. By doing it this way, they reap all the benefits by taking none of the risk, because they’ve allowed Tommy to do the dirty work first. This way, again, if things go wrong, Tommy takes all the blame.
Tommy always knew it was Sonny who set him up to be ambushed and killed or incarcerated. Sonny was to Tommy what Stretch was to Frank.
I wouldn't compare Sonny to Stretch . Stretch wasn't a Mafia leader. He was just a punk
I'll compare Stretch to Sonny any day of the week. Stretch was a Ballaz leader behind Frank's and Lamar's backs. Sonny constantly tried to get Tommy killed. Stretch constantly tried to be Frank and Lamar killed.
@@miguelpasamano4995 Nah you're very confused my G
Man I love the use of the GTA2 menu music in these videos. It's so nostalgic.
Tommy may have never tried to betray sonny LIKE THAT, he wasn't gonna forgive him either
The people who wrote the storylines are geniuses. I love your content!
Tommy simply reached his breaking point. He just got home from a 15 year bid only to find himself conducting a drug deal for the same guy who went away for in the first place. The deal is jumped and Sonny was only concerned about the money. That’s why he threw the phone in the hotel room because he was flabbergasted and annoyed. He wanted parts in who jumped his deal, but he did all of it for his personal gain.
Pleasee don’t stop doin your videos I love them & watch them soon as they drop💙💙💙
We will never stop, Tunshi! ❤️
the story is like THE HIGHER YOU CLIME YOUR ENEMIES ARE IN HIGHER PLACES.
Although Tommy has no evidence to prove that Sonny set him up, he (Sonny) confirmed it at the final mission when he said "You still don't get it do you! I OWN you, Tommy! Those fifteen years were mine to spend!". If Tommy paid Sonny the drugs and money, he wouldn't treat Tommy any better because he sees Tommy as a tool he owns, and he's an extremely greedy and power-hungry person who's willing to do everything to get more money and power, he had no problem betraying Tommy, his childhood friend, for that.
He had 15 long years to sit in prison and realize he was just being used and abused by the Forelli family. Not only that, he had been set up to die in Harwood. He was only supposed to assassinate one target in Harwood, but ended up killing 11 targets.
Having failed to die at the hands of Sonny, Tommy was swept under the rug by the Forellis and the Justice System for 15 years, and then sent on a faraway errand by Sonny the second he got out of prison, and blamed for everything going wrong.
After being shafted in a deal gone wrong, jerked around, and nearly killed multiple times, Tommy decided he would set everything up for himself, and cut Sonny out of everything. It was all rightfully so, because Sonny just barked orders at him and dumped on him the whole time.
It's true Tommy doesn't immediately decide not to repay his debt. He realises slowly that his roots in Vice City are getting stronger and stronger.
But I feel like, other than that, Tommy is reluctant to betray Forelli's Mafia openly. That's why he prints counterfit cash 💸. Very close to the end his reluctance reduces and he kills Forelli's men collecting protection money from his assets.
Now we are at ending.
Sonny: Those 15 years were mine to spend
Now Tommy's reluctance is completely gone and evil mode 😈 turns on. That was the moment he decides to eliminate Sonny.
What I am saying is there was a kind of an element of fear too starting enmity with a Mafia organisation.
And we fully agree on that matter, Muhammad! 😃
Rockstar cut too much from the game. What truly puzzles me is who really ambushed the deal. There's no single logical reason that would point to Diaz. I read a lot about Mr. Black being the mastermind behind this but he plays no major part in the storyline, he barely gives some side mission but neither of them seems to be aware of who's the client and who's the contractor.
Either the drug transaction plot ends with Tommy killing the cook or someone from his environment was the puppeteer who planned the ambush from the beginning and how to make Diaz the scapegoat later on. Colonel Cortez was the one perhaps. When I was a kid playing GTA VC I liked him but the more I replay it now, the more I find Cortez a sneaky bastard
diaz was all over the coke in vice city
he'd know when vance brothers would take the coke to the docks
after all they worked together
smokin' some shmucks from liberty city and taking their cash AND vance's coke at the same time was a no brainer
I believe Tommy wants more from what he will get if he stay loyal to Sonny. Even if he would've gotten a control of Vice City, it would've just been a expansion of Forelli Family, Tommy would not get that freedom for all his hardwork he would just be a 2nd guy to sonny forelli.
So Tommy saw an opportunity, a opportunity that he can rule the south without any interference to north so that's the reason I believe he break his promise. As far as for the money 3 mil or 20 mil briefcase (depending on which you believe is cannon) I think Tommy again just wanted to take advantage of his print to make fake cash for Sonny and plus he was angry that Sonny didn't ask Tommy before infiltrating into his business.
Exactly, that's why we mentioned the criminal empire as the number one reason. Tommy realized that being a soldier wouldn't be worth his efforts, but also noticed that Vice City is a gold mine. Just like you said, if he was to take over Vice City and then leave it all to Sonny, he would be back to the first step - being underrated. As for the idea to give Sonny fake cash, the motives behind this rather speak for themselves. 😉
I always thought it was strange how in the introduction sonny and his other shoulders are talking about getting into drugs. Then afterwards the deal goes bad an sonny had drugs an money on his table. Granted it unrealistic those be the same ones from the deal but still I always thought that was a lil odd lol.
They intentionally did this to ramp up the tension for the final mission. Tommy's long-held suspicion of Sonny, Sonny's post-prison behavior, and Lance's quick betrayal all set the stage for a batshit crazy shootout to end the game.
I never played Vice-City because the gameplay honestly aged very well, but I will after this video because I didn't knew that the story was so interesting!
That's one of the great similarities between video games and movies/books. Everytime you play it again, you might discover something new 🙂
If you never played it then that's your fault
Considering what Sonny did to Tommy 15 years prior to the game's plot, did Sonny really deserve his cut of the profits Tommy made on his own? Also, it's been more than implied that Sonny had sold Tommy out from the very beginning, and he would have tried to kill Tommy had the latter given the former the money.
"A person becomes a Don because of a thirst for power" Tommy Angelo, Lost Heaven, 1938.
A desire for power is among the reasons why Tommy betrayed the Forellis. He wanted to be independent, be his own boss. It also always kind of bothered me why Tommy went back on his word. Tommy, for all his flaws, isn't a liar nor is he a manipulator or a hypocrite. Ironically, even though I'm more sympathetic towards Lance in his friendship with Tommy, I occasionally do respect how Tommy treats Lance as an equal friend but I feel he didn't treat him well enough. Also, I, for the longest time, have been genuienly believing that Tommy didn't give Sonny his money and drugs back because he didn't have them. It's highly likely that Diaz was backed by drug lords from Colombia, and gave them the majority of the money, as well as sold them the cocaine. They didn't reclaim Diaz' empire because they didn't wish to trouble their world-wide organazation by sending manpower to take back one city. Plus Colombia was at disarray at the time in the real world, and it's likely to be the same case in the 3D Universe, and perhaps they contacted Tommy later, or gave up similarly to how the Colombian Cartel did not continue their desire for the Stilwater drugs trade and their partnership with the Saints. Tommy also must have suspected Sonny set him up, and did not wish to remain loyal to such a man any longer, especially since Sonny didn't actively support Tommy. However it is highly likely that considering Tommy's status as the Forellis' represantative in the city, that Sonny had other plans for him, perhaps for him to become a Caporegime and led his own crime family in Florida. Tommy however, wanted more, hence his betrayal of the Forellis. I think Tommy's loyalty is very conditional. His relationship with Ken is a clear example of that. Once Ken was no longer of any use, Tommy just abandoned him and didn't bother speaking to him. As harsh as it sounds, Tommy may only save or protect someone because he stands to gain from them. However, Lance is the an exception as Tommy could have found another gunman to help him, but saved him because Lance was his friend and was capable and he knew the streets. Even though Tommy did potentially save Ken's life by sending him to rehab that was a hollow act of kindness as he ceased contact with him and left him for dead. Your point about Tommy not knowing that Sonny set him up is a point I too thought of and shows that Tommy is impulsive and needlessly endangered his friends' lives due to an unproven accusation, even if he was right. I think Tommy was right to distrust Sonny, but that decision wasn't well planned. Even if that betrayal was to avenge Sonny's betrayal again, it wasn't properly planned out, and Tommy clearly did not anticipate the consequences of this course of action judging by his shock when Sonny came after him. In that regard, thinking he's a big shot and good planner, he is similar to Lance, just more active and doesn't complain as much. But ironically, Tommy also does not take responsibilty for his actions. Hell, one of his battle cries is "I'm not responsible for my actions".
Good to see you again, Just! Looks like we have another juicy comment from you 😁 Huge respect for quoting Mafia (one of the best games imo). Now, in terms of what you've said, it's really hard to say something more than agree with you honestly as you made some really accurate and valid points. However, we could only add that some time ago one thought came across our minds - that perhaps Tommy was a bit exploiting Lance which could be possible. It's not confirmed, but Vance was ranting about his fair slice a few times and while some people will say that he was doing nothing so that's what he deserved (we are in this group), another group could say that perhaps he was doing something off-screen and we simply didn't get a chance to see or hear about it. So yeah, just a little digression 😉
The Colombian Cartel did actually continue to sell their drugs in Stilwater in Saints Row 2, however it was massively reduced, Most likely due to them not having a big distributor, Like The Saints or The Carnales and relying on (Arguably) less reliable dealers, or mules like Luz, All that alongside The Sons of Samedi cornering Stilwater's drug market with Loa Dust.
@@missionofsin3360 Yes, you’re right. I forgot that, never got around to doing Luz’ side mission
Tommi knew Sonny would betray him again.
Well, he second-guessed it in a way 🙂
the drug deal ambush was made by Kingpin of Vice City Ricardo Diaz. he did plan to kill the Vance brothers back in 1984 if the Vance bros came back, but by 1986 they did, vic was dead, while lance survived. as for Vercetti's betrayal, Vercetti suspected that Sonny had set up a trap back in liberty city.
Tommy is always valid (and would be the best gta character if he could swim), Sonny took 15 years from him
Imagine Salvatore Leone met Tommy Vercetti in prison back in the 70's.
I think Tommy never intended to kill Diaz but he did want an opportunity out of the Forellis. Cortez never actually confirmed anything either Tommy but Lance made moves ahead of Tommy and screwed up. Therefore forcing Tommy to kill Diaz and also use it as opportunity to fuck over Sonny.
To me in the intro of Vice City Sonny kind of implies that the 'visit' he was going to pay Tommy was going to be him killing him. He knew Tommy would have to be dealt with sooner or later. Hell, Lance might've been the person from the start who was going to run the show under Sonny. Just things went sideways and he had to work with Tommy to get things back on track.
Tommy broke no promise. Sonny did that the moment he betrayed Tommy 15 years ago.
after literally taking over vice city tommy knew that if sonny didn't kill him he would never let tommy have vice city
you say "betrayal" but can you really betray someone who coms in with intent of taking over your turf?
R.I.P. Ray Liotta and Tom Sizemore
Love the GTA 1 music at the start.
Simple. Tommy was realizing that Sonny had set up in Harwood in 1971 with the killing of 11 men who were targeting him because he doesn’t realize that he was challenging Sonny’s pride. And also Sonny didn’t send more mafia men to check on Tommy in Vice city and helped him out in wiping Diaz. Who was responsible for stealing the coke and money from the deal.
To make a long story short, yes 😅
Hello "Gaming Investigator" good to see you again!👋
Likewise, Yousef! Good to see you again as well.
This always confused me, there's never really a transition point, it just happens. I wish it was more clear what the exact moment was Tommy decided to go into business for himself and Sonny.
I believe he always planned on doing his own thing he knew sonny set him up in Harwood this is the perfect way to get back at him once the deal got ambushed and his partners were killed in made it even easier the other possibly is once he killed Diaz and saw the opening he figured why do all the heavy lifting only to hand the money over to sonny he might as well keep everything and deal with him later after all he did set him up to be killed
You are correct, it's not pointed out anywhere in the story when he decided to betray the Forellis. Still, we players can still have some headcanons here and pick a point in the story timeline where it could happen 😉 For us, it was prolly when he took care of Ricardo Diaz, but don't take it for granted. 😃
I think Tommy’s desire for power has taken hold by the time of Diaz’ death. Initially Tommy was calm and somewhat pragmatic, not taking any risks with Diaz and looking at the bigger picture with his debts, even if he was slightly impatient even in the beginning. After killing Diaz, Tommy’s hunger for power, greed, anger and understandable frustration with his time in prison, all manifested at once. Tommy shows very early on during the protection racket how impatient he grew, and how demanding he is for results. Tommy’s complete impatience and power hungry attitude is also demonstrated by how he attacked stores at the mall, rather than making a name for himself and waiting for them to fall in line. While these are negative aspects of Tommy’s character it ultimately makes him somewhat complex. I think that decision was probably spontaneous, and it was influenced by Sonny’s lack of support, and Tommy’s hunger for power, control, money, independence, frustration and possibly ego all taking over. I’m not sure if ego played a role in Tommy’s betrayal of the Forellis, but ego is definitely a part of his personality.
@Cat007 exactly my thoughts
Just look at the cutscenes...the Mitch Baker one tells you everything you need to know
I am honestly curious to know how liberty City looked like in 1971, 1986 and 1992
I feel like an indicator that Diaz was aware of the mafia's connection to tommy, was made clear when Tommy kills him. Diaz says "I could have had you made."
Like regardless of Tommy's ethnicity as Italian American (if Diaz is aware of it), Diaz would have probably accepted tommy as a member of the Diaz gang which is mainly Hispanic
Well, for those who played GTA Vice City, this is not some kind of secret or unknown fact because, they clearly point out, why and what happened. I'm writing this comment just before starting to watch this video and i already know, why Tommy betrayed Sonny. And the simple answer is, because Sonny betrayed him in the past by putting him in the jail, while Sonny took control over one of the mafia families and became their boss. So, after Tommy got out, got to Vice City and saw opportunity that could change his life for the better, and probably allow them to avenge himself, he decided to take the chance and used that opportunity to mess up Sonny. And when Sonny came to Vice City, Tommy simply took him out and created his own criminal mafia family, the Vercetti family.
Good for you, my man! 🙂 We do take into account that some people could come to similar conclusions while making this and obviously every video. However, we are not aiming at "professional/highly experienced GTA experts" since they are pretty much the minority. And some people never played this game or did it a long time ago, perhaps they want to rewind this thread for themselves. And yeah, sometimes we will present cases that are rather obvious from a certain point of view, and other time something far more complex. We hope you enjoyed the video, nonetheless. 😉
@@gaminginvestigators I did enjoyed the video. I just point out what was on my mind, that's all.
Heyy it would be amazing if u could do a whole video on the crime families of gta especially the liberty city and vice city gangs.
it makes sense to why Tommy gave Sonny 🖕. his way of saying "i haven't forgotten that stunt u pulled on me back Harwood sending me to die. wound up doing a 15 yr stretch becuz of u."
Sonny: You made me lose 20k dollars!!!
Tommy: Hang on for a second.
*Tommy does the paramedic, firefighter and taxi driver jobs*
Tommy: There. I earned 40k. Keep them as interests.
*Roll credits*
I think that Tommy actually didn't plan to betray Sonny, until when Forelli's gang openly interfered into his business without warning or visiting Tommy prior to that. Basically, Sonny decided to just take everything from Tommy, all of the business he had established purely through his own hard work while receiving zero support from 'the North', instead of just arranging a meeting with Tommy to settle things openly and more or less peacefully. So for Tommy, it was actually Sonny who openly betrayed him first, and Lance turning out to be a traitor working for Sonny only supported Tommy's judgment. Also, it has to be noted that Tommy did give Sonny a chance, when he killed all of Sonny's men that were trying to overtake his business, thus forcing an open meeting at his place, when he could've simply created an ambush to get rid of Sonny and his goons by, say, shooting at their limo from an RPG or something. But alas, Sonny didn't appreciate the gesture, so it was only logical for Tommy to kill him. He had been left with no other choice, after all.
That was my impression too. Wasn't he sent to Vice City to set up a branch and take over? Essentially the thing he did, though the game.
Then when he's _done_ the thing he was meant to do, Sonny sends goons to take it all. If Tommy "betrayed" anyone, it was because Sonny didn't give him any other option. The real question is: why did Sonny betray Tommy?
Facts
Am i... like. Missing something? At what point during Vice City did Tommy ever betray Sonny? He was sent to VC to do a job, it was botched because Sonny wanted him dead, then did what he was told to do: pay Sonny back. Is there any hard evidence that *canonically* Tommy managed to get the amount together and refused to pay back before his mansion was invaded? Admittedly it's been a minute since i last played Vice City but i do distinctly remember that he was willing to pay him back once he had the money he "lost"
Hello! Alright, we will try to answer your questions 😉 So, as for the moment Tommy decides to betray Sonny, it's really unknown. That's because there are numerous points in the story where we could conclude this. For us, it was after he killed Ricardo Diaz in the "Rub Out" mission. However, some people believe it could be earlier - like maybe after the mission "Riot" for Ken Rosenberg or after "Supply & Demand" for Ricardo Diaz. Speaking of the failed drug deal in Viceport, it's not 100% guaranteed it was Sonny's fault, as well as there is no guarantee it was Diaz's. And the third question - well there is pretty much no evidence that Tommy was going to pay Sonny back before the final mission of the game - at least we can't find anything that would suggest this. From our point of view, Tommy was hoping foolishly that he will pay Sonny back with counterfeit money from the Print Works and they will be square, but that wouldn't happen for sure. And that's pretty much it 😃
Doubt were talking about the same game cause it was Sony who Betrayed Tommy Vercetti and while yes some might agree Tommy Vercetti started to figure out what caused him to go to Prison for 15 years and Sonny acted as if he owned Tommy and Tommy's life was his to do with as he pleased but OK will keep a open mind on this issue
7:48 As a player, who knows Grand Theft Auto 3 pretty well, I was confused by the sudden usage of a footage of that game, with poorly textured Claude Speed to make him look like Tommy Vercetti. May I know, what was your motivation behind that surprising change?
Lance has a history of thinking he deserved more than he actually worked for and in Vice City Stories caused his Brother more problems than he was really worth in my humble opinion
I have a theory that Victor was killed by his enemies in GTA VC, most likely the Mendez Cartel working through another city, and the assassins don't really know who Victor is so they sprayed everyone
Tommy dont want be like as Toni cipriani
And he was right. He was smarter and with big ambitions to be independent. While Toni is just Salvatore’s ass kisser.
Mafia code? Law of honour? That’s all bullshit. Toni didn’t learn about it when he ran out of town for 4 years just because he killed a made man under Salvatore’s order just to be demoted by him to pathetic henchman associate, about whom he wiped his feet on him and scammed him in the end with all lies about being trusted ally and very grateful.
The reason Sonny didn't help Tomny is because he couldn't be seen dealing with drugs no matter where he was
What is that Miami thing and why is there a real life bild from Vice City while it is talk about it? ;p
Good video. I think just a assumption from Tommy would've been enough for him to betray Sonny in the end. But yeah as you guys mentioned he had plenty of reasons to do so
Yes plz more of this content great vid
Thanks!
i feel like "betrayal" is not the right word to be used in tommy's scenario, sonny and the forelli family has been using tommy like a worthless tool for em, they undermined him, didn't give him the recognition he deserved and also the two set-up ambushes sending him to his certain death, also they left him to rot in prison for 15 years.
All of this is alot for a person to realize his worth among the family, so he just deserted them by moving away and making his own crime setup.
Simply put it's not betrayal in any way.
honestly what's always got to me, is the fact that sonny thought he could take on tommy at the end of the game hear me out:
Tommy killed 11 people that took him by surprise, wtf did Sonny think was gonna happen when tommy knew what was coming?! also doesn't help that Tommy is used to doing all the dirty work, he gets his hands dirty on a daily basis where as Sonny relies on goons to do all the work for him
not to mention the fact that he got Lance to betray tommy which lets be honest here made no difference what so ever, Lance was useless and blamed everyone else for HIS screw ups
for a Don sonny wasn't very bright
how the damn is your game is soo smooth and bright
Loved this, it was something I was wondering for some time. If you do more Vice City videos, I do have a few requests:
1. Harry and Lee. They die very quickly in the opening and never speak. I’d like to see something about them. Was Sonny setting them up along with Tommy? Were they supposed to dispose of Tommy and carry on the business for Sonny themselves? Would they have split from Sonny like Tommy did?
2. Tommy’s crew. He has a full family spring up the moment Diaz is killed. Where did he find them? Were they local or did he recruit more Forelli family members who were also upset with Sonny?
Your last question those were Diaz men but since Diaz died they needed someone to work for
Well, when they were with Diaz, they had Latino accents, and when they were with Tommy, they had more Italian-American accents. And Tommy probably couldn’t trust the men who just minutes earlier worked for someone he just killed.
#2: I think they consist of both
Notice after he calls sunny to let him know that things went bad for the deal sunny had a bunch of money and drugs on the table. I'm almost 80 percent sure sonny sit sonny up and wanted a reason to get rid of tommy while using him to get his drugs and money
Imagine a Gta game taking taking place in the early 70s with The Leones and The Forellis!
I would love to play a GTA 5 like game in Vice City
Hey, I have a video idea. Is Mitch Baker (Vice City) related to Agatha Baker from GTA Online?
No, because they’re in different universes.
Tommy was a made guy who did 15 years in the can and never rat out any of his accomplices. However, during the first phone call with Sonny, it becomes apparent that it was the first time they spoke since Tommy left jail ("15 years, seems like only yesterday"). This proves that Tommy wasn't even greeted by the Don after being released. He was snubbed by the boss, and instead had to deal with Sonny's representative who gave him the "take this money with our associates Harry and Lee to Miami and buy 20k's of drug" order. For a hardened soldier like Tommy that was humiliation coming from the Don. That's when the resentment began to brew.
Why does everyone not see the drugs and money on the table during the phone call with sonny? Sonny robbed his own did to get Tommy to take over and cut sonny in. Tommy not the type of person to take over. He is a worker the best example of this is the mission he yell and Lance near the end. He not the guy to just send some boys to do a job. He would do it himself.
hey can you please tell the version of vice city you were using in the background and possibly where i could download it
Tommy's work in Vice City was all his own doing, so it's pretry understandable why he wouldn't wanna just give up everything to Sonny. Since he built his own empire he figured why would he need to care about Sonny anymore?
Truthfully I think the reason why Sonny set Tommy up is because Tommy ruining Sonny's protection racket. Sonny did say if people find out that Tommy is out it bad for business. Imagine how much dough Tommy cost Sonny in 1971 ( In Sonny's mine Tommy do more harm than good for the Forelli's family ). Sonny have to find away to get rid of Tommy ( Make sense to eradicate Tommy but he survive without a mark on Tommy ). [ 15 Years later ] Sonny want to expand his family ( Knowing that other families won't get involve in drugs ) he need some1 to look over this in Vice while he's at Liberty City ( Then when the time is right Sonny come down to Vice & take over ) [ In short ] this way Sonny give Tommy something to do as well as make up the money Sonny lost back in 1971.
This is actually a really interesting approach! 🤔 To be honest, we haven't thought about this aspect as another point supporting Sonny being responsible for the failed drug deal in Viceport. We are truly thankful for bringing this issue up as it will be quite useful to us while doing a video about the drug deal at the docks 🙂
You nailed it
Tommy never betrayed nobody. just like Tony Montana said in scarface: i never fu#### anyone over who didnt had it comming to them.... Sonny deserved it for what he did to Tommy
This is a really cool analogy in terms of both gentlemen's personality traits. Perhaps one day we should compare these two characters 😁
*That was great piece of a video*
Thanks, bro! 🤘 Stay tuned for new episodes 😎
I'm with Tommy. "I'd want the world chico, And everything in it...
What program you use for edit videos? Excuse me my bad English.
I believe Tommy had enough of Sonny and the Family before the events of the game. When Tommy went away for fifteen years, he must have heard from other mafia criminals in prison that the hit was was orchestrated by Sonny and he knew who was going to be there. Tommy would eventually learn that Sonny wanted him dead because he was jealous of Tommy's growing influence in the Family. Yet, Sunny couldn't directly kill Tommy because that will be against the Mafia code. Once Tommy became a powerful player in Vice City, who became more powerful than any Mafia organization or gang. He didn't have to answer to Sonny or his former family.
Great video, btw what mods did you use?
Real question is why did sunny thought Tommy will not betray him after getting him ambushed and leaving him for 15 years
Great video
Thanks! More awesome episodes coming soon 🤘
That's why he's known as the "Harwood Butcher".
God damn this is so cool.
Tommy was doing his own life making new people in vice city doing favors without listening his mobster friend sonny. but to me I'm a say that sonny had set up with tommy not telling him a secret that those Three men that sonny send them to break the deal and steal what was going on so my answer will be sonny was doing the bad deal so the money and drugs will be his not giving tommy his cut
So Tommy not calling or writing to Sonny which he promised to do but complain about Sonny not sending support. Sonny did heard from his agents that Tommy is trying to takeover and Tommy asking for support is just straight up lie. Tommy is playing games. He don’t want to end relation with Sonny just yet. Tommy wants to grow in power first.
„They knew I was coming, Sonny“
people-- Sonny didn't loose neither money nor drugs. and that is known from first interaction between Tommy and Sonny .... -.-
Power is not given. It's taken
Yeah. Tommy had some suspension that Sonny was a snake. Just couldn't prove it yet. Though not taking care of his father, Sonny wasn't going to be someone to stay in good terms for long. So Sonny got what was coming to him.