Is Yoshimura serve Legal? Help Timo Boll
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- In the previous video "Why Yoshimura Serve is so effective?", there are many opposing opinions. Some said Yoshimura serve is legal. Other players don't agree.
Why Timo Boll needs help? Why he can't read the spin on the Yoshimura's serve? Let's analyze it today.
Previous video: "Why Yoshimura Serve is so effective?" is here: • Why Yoshimura Serve is...
About Yoshimura:
Maharu Yoshimura (吉村 真晴 Yoshimura Maharu, born 3 August 1993) is a Japanese table tennis player.
At the 2015 World Table Tennis Championships, Yoshimura won a silver medal in the mixed doubles event with Kasumi Ishikawa. At the 2017 World Table Tennis Championships, Yoshimura won a gold medal in the mixed doubles event with Kasumi Ishikawa.
Equipment(s): Butterfly Custom (ZL Carbon), Butterfly Tenergy 05 (BH, FH)
Special thanks to ITTF, Shakehands.JP . Without their help, we can not finish this tutorial.
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It seems definately illigal to me.. I can't see any contact when he serves.
Ég tek undir með CWY JAL að þetta er ekki samhljóma "the spirit of the rules" um það að andstæðingurinn á að sjá boltann snerta spaðann.
@@SigurdurHerlufsen for helvetet, dette er jo gammalnorsk, forbandet bra språk høra på ;-) syntes gamalnorsk sku vært mitt morsmål
Can't see the contact point = illegal and proved by your slow motion video.
perfectly illegal if you are the opponent and perfectly legal if you are the side judge. Unfortunate there is no Judge at the other side of the table and just at the side.
not only it is hidden, but he also tosses the ball toward his body.
Illegal because his head is not transparent.
Your ass
Underrated comment
Lol
Hahahahahaha
Satire..... Funny n on point 😂
Ball must be visible throughout its flight when leaves the servers hand. Even if the server does not hide the contact point it might still be illegal due to blocking the ball during its flight.
Yoshimura's serve is 200% illegal and there is no doubt about it. He deliberately hides the ball behind his head and I have no idea why umpires are giving him an unfair advantage.
Illegal. All umpires and table tennis players that don't follow the regulations established by ITTF must be eliminated from the national and international tournaments.
@@kim92se64 You don't know the rules. Sorry.
The slowmotion footage at 4:00 onwards shows that the serve is clearly not within the spirit of the rules. The point of contact is (almost entirely) hidden by the head, and this is done intentionally.
I find it very strange that you show the footage, and then don't make a judgement yourself, but still encourage people to practice the serve.
well, as long as the umpire doesnt see it as a illigal serve you should use it. Timo Boll has one of the most open and cleanest serves and he makes not many points with serves.
Luckma1 so maybe umpires must do their job? Serve clearly illegal, so rules say, if umpire does not know the ittf rules he must not be allowed to work. And violation of that rule is relatively easy to figure unlike verticality of the toss ffs.
@@Kyvism sure, they should do their work! I am just saying: as long as they dont inact this rule to the fullest, use it yourself
Dear coach, to be a respectful player model, you shouldn't recommend illegal serves. The serve is good because you can not see the contact point. I've got a friend who can do illusion on the contact point when he is serving in front of you. That's what i call you should learn that one, illusion. Not illegal one.
@@umutozk depends on the level your playing at
He mixes legal with illegal serves brilliantly......no doubt some serves are illegal....time has come to use camera analysis to judge during the match-we need a dedicated umpire in a new location for this.
Totally agree, the only way an umpire can judge is that he has to be seating in a pre-defined position behind the opponent just like the slow motion camera was showing ! In this case this was illegal. But this is so difficult to judge, I don't really know how they will ever be able to stop it (especially at critical moments in the match), as you say they alternate between legal and illegal ! (So many other players do the same)
Official rule: "FROM THE START OF SERVICE UNTIL IT IS STRUCK, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and IT SHALL NOT BE HIDDEN from the receiver BY THE SERVER or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry."
Unquestionably illegal...
even if the umpire does not call it for being hidden, there is no way he is throwing that ball straight up
@@kim92se64 where do you see the contact point? when you're standing behind him maybe...
It is no necessary to see The point of contact.. In The right moment when The ball dissapear behind The head.... The serve turns illegal
Of Course 👍
@@kim92se64 the ball shall be visible for the receptor every moment since the server throw it UP until it make contact with the racket... Its on rules
Only Calderano would see the point of contact 😆
Because he squats deeply during the receive?
Hahaha. Very good and funny observation. Hugo stance is very low
You're genius 🤣🤣
There's something no one realized. Timo Boll is a lefty player. Remember that Xu Xin, another lefty player, had problems with this serve in the past. It happens due to the position that the lefty player takes during the reception. Maybe right handed players can see the contact point.
Does not care. Lefty or not...hidden is hidden.
@@runnerbaba well no, because if you're a righty then it's not hidden, and thus legal :-)
Exactly, that's what I came here to comment too. As a lefty myself that came right to mind.
@@JeremyCouch I'm a lefty too.
@PlayerGamer427 _ It makes perfect sense. You see or don't see the ball depending on where you are standing to receive the serve. It's not complicated.
It's not about contact point. The ball shall not be hidden AT ANY TIME during the serve.
2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball ... shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.
It's interesting we get a slow-motion of Ma Long's serve at the end of this video. Look at 5:14. Can you see the contact point?
The Yoshimura serves I have seen, often show the contact point but only very shortly after the ball passed behind his head. We see a very similar thing with Ma Long. Ball trajectory passes behind his head and only shortly after, the contact point is visible. If the rules say that the ball should be visible "throughout" the trajectory, then Ma's serve is just as illegal as Yoshimura's. And I'm a huge Ma Long fan.
Technically you are right about the ball being visible throughout the trajectory of the serve, but it's impossible in a pendulum serve to make it where the ball is visible the entire time. The point of the serve is to hit it very close to your body near the bottom of its toss, so the players have to cover some of it.
finally somebody noticed
@@johnyoo8035 Fine, but then either the rules should change or the pendulum serve is out. There's a lot of confusion today because of this. Nearly every pendulum serve is illegal if we strictly follow the rules, because of the mechanics you describe. So referees allow it. Of course players then experiment to see how far they can stretch the advantage.
It's perfectly possible to make a pendulum serve without hiding the ball from your opponent at any time. @@johnyoo8035
Here is an excerpt from ITTF handbook, page 36 (www.ittf.com/handbook/):
"""
From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the
playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from
the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear
or carry.
"""
Here is nothing special about contact point. The ball must be visible to the receiver all the time between the toss and the strike
Hi. Thanks for your excellent video. I'd like to ask you which video explains better how to learn this serve. Thanks
Can you make a video for the correct technique for chopping and moves to intervene with chopping and the technique for backspin
Forget contact point. The ball should always be in view, from and between the two net posts to the ball. I believe
Wdym forget the contact point if u can't see the contact point the serve is already eligal
@@miguelzapanta he means that if the ball is hidden before contact, it doesn't matter if you can see the contact point or not. Serve is still illegal. The rules state: "From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry". I.e. it's enough that the ball disappears from view at any point in the toss for it to be deemed illegal.
in view from where (which position/location)?
there is no rule that opponent should stay in exact position.
forehand dominant righthand player stays in one position/location; backhand dominant stays in different position and more...
and small changing of angles clearly changes the view
And according to that logic all players should serve at straight position like Samsonov, would like to see Ma Long serve as Samsonov?
ban of hiding directly with arms enough i think
I believe it to be illegal based on the contact point being hidden. However, I can see how this would be tough for an official to see from the side of the table to make that call.
I can hear the sound of the ball contacting and look at the angle of the bat and the direction it is going to find the spin (only in slow motion though lol) But I cannot see the contact point at all...
My observation from Timo's match was that sometimes the contact point was visible and sometimes not but something other than that was more consistent, his tossed ball always fell behind his head. It means the toss was always obstructed by his head. Isn't that illegal? When umpires warn or give fault service for not removing the tossing hand before contact or under arm serving then head should be illegal as well. I may be wrong but just my thought.
We need a GoPro mounted on Timo's head, with a display showing exactly what he sees (or doesn't see) to the umpires. That way the umpires would have actual data to base a decision on. This way, from where they sitting, it's just impossible to tell if the contact point / trajectory is hidden from Timo or not.
At the end the serve with the slow motion replay from the chosen angle that it was filmed from was illegal due to hidden contact point & trajectory obfuscation - however, each serve is different in each game, so it has to be a case by case decision for the umpire (hence the need for the GoPro as mentioned before).
Today I saw Lin yun ju serves, like Yoshimaru, he threw the ball inward when the ball down, it was behind his head until the struck point was below his head and seen able.
Please compare other player’s service, you can see the same and differences.
This kind of at-least-borderline-illegal serve is pretty common. Really, if others are getting away with it, you might as well experiment with it too. But honestly there is no reason to throw the ball behind your body like that except to obscure part of its path (if not the point of contact itself), which is all supposed to be illegal.
You can clearly see especialy for Timo Boll being left handed he is blocked from view of the ball much more than someone that is right handed.
the more importend question is, can you as a player say: Hey umpire are you blind, his serve is illegal? Its often hard from the umpire perspective to see...
Illegal, according to Ittf rules.
*important, bro 😂
And what does that have to do with whether the serve is legal or illegal?
He hides the contact point with his head this serve is illegal
I saw Jan Owe Waldner's serves, look like the same way as Yoshimura's, did that time (before 2010) Ittf has the same service rules?
except that waldner hides the ball mostly with his tossing arm.
Can someone explain to me what the fuss about the contact point is about? Isn't the rule that you can't hide the ball at all during the drop?
Hello, Emrathich. Once you told about thick layer of glue on chinese rubber. Could you please explain it more detailed and what benefit it gives.
Hard chinese rubbers require thick and strong glue. Thicker glue will give a little of dwell time. Strong glue to increase speed and spin. It is like you can't glue a brick with something very weak
@@pingsunday thank you teacher:)
Can you make a video about c /j penhold/rpb/ serve? Like wrist motion
if you guys would watch in 0,25 speed, you can see that he doesn´t hide the contact with his chin, allthough if its close and the time window is very short
ok, i was incorrect, the ball must be able to see the whole servicephase and not only in the moment of contact.
You have to judge each serve individually. Some of the ones from the match had a much lower contact point than the practice video had.
There are times when he makes contact just below the head and the serve can be bearly visible. But in my opinion, many of his serves had the contact point hidden by his head.
It's irrelevant. The rules say nothing about the contact point. The ball has to be visible at any time once you have thrown it.
"2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry"
"2.6.5 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net."
Regardless of when he contacts the ball, it's clearly illegal by the first rule because the ball drops behind his head (before he hits it).
For the sake of clarity, perhaps the second rule needs to include head as well as arm and hand.
Yoshimura isn't the only one, a couple of Ding Ning's serve drop behind her head, many of Mima Ito's too, but lots of others if you look properly. It has to be a deliberate bending of the rule, and seems more important than umpires getting picky about how straight the ball toss was.
It depends on your point of view.. The serve is legal if the opposite player are in the left side of the tabble so you can see contact point of the ball, but is illegal if the opponents are in right side of tabble because they can't see contact point of the ball..
I say as long as the ball strikes the player's paddle one time on his side of the table and his opponent's side one time, it's legal. If the camera is behind the player a clear shot is seen. It was hard to see clearly the repetitive slow motion serve, at the position of the camera, but most unique serve I've ever seen. If the ball is thrown higher than 6 inches, or if it was tossed a meter or two high, umpire can see it.
In this training video contact point is not seen. Its hidden.its illegal , but i think in match he tries his best to keep head abit high ,and maybe thats the reason why he sometimes does serve error...
Hi, thank you for your video, which has shown the facts very clearly. Maybe I’m been cynical here...but here’s what I think. From what I’ve seen Yoshimura’s serve is definitely illegal. He’s hiding the ball at contact point with his head. In fact I believe that he does this quite deliberately, that is, he must have practiced a lot his serves to make sure that he could hide the ball from his opponents. Timo Boll is a very experienced player; surely someone of his calibre would not concede 12 points or more as a result of this serve if he could see the ball. In fact, I’m surprised that no official complaint was made as this is clearly illegal, as well as a bad example of sportsmanship.
The serves are totally right...legal. A very good serve indeed. I also want to learn them.
Similar to Reverse pendulum done with wrist movement rather than traditional elbow motion.
I used to do this serve while learning reverse pendulum. The short serve was more effective for me.
Thank you for another very educational video.
I'm happy because you're release your's videos so often.
PS: Yoshimura's serve is legal. (From my perspective.)
Hi Daniel. Yes, it's at the borderline. Hard to say.
how could it be legal? do you know the basic rules? it can not be hidden at any time after the toss... and he is hidding the ball behind his head = illegal... but referee has a different point of view so he can see the ball so that is why they allowed him to continue, but in the spirit of game and sportsmanship the serve is not legal
@@hOx753 no one is calling hiding serves, only thing they call is the toss if it's not high enough..but who cares about that...
@@Timoteo-ol4wm but the question was is it legal or not... call it or not to call it is the every umpire decision and it is completely different thing...
Many players at the professional-level have illegal serve and hide the flight or contact point or ignore other service rules; especially left-handers who turn body anti-clockwise and throw the ball towards themselves with pendulum serve; players use head or free hand to block or obscure; many players have the ball touching their fingers on throw up or the ball is not free in the palm,; often ball is not thrown vertically or close but towards body to hide or towards blade to increase spin!
NOT SURE WHY WE ARE PICKING ON YOSHIMURA; look at Xu Xin or many many many other players and freeze frame during flight or at contact and the ball is not in sight!
The interpretation of the rules needs to be tightened for ALL players if you are to start calling this.
And I wish they would because the service rules are not followed at all and this leads to club players doing the same, and who can blame them.
You have to stand where the opponent if you can see the contact point. The video is seen from the point of view of the video cam
I believe the rules also state that the ball must travel straight up and down after leaving the hand. The ball is clearly being thrown at an angle, towards the server.
Of course, many players do this and it is rarely called by the officials. That does not makemit legal. They should start enforcing this rule on everyone.
Where can I see this video?! 1:36
i cannot see the contact point
I would think if you are low enough to table you would be able to see contact point more times then not making most serves legal. If he cuts it very close it’s hard for opponent and judges to call it. Remember, the contact point of serve only has to be seen by opponent. It’s hard for the referee to know if serve is legal sitting on the sideline.
amazing yoshimura
Looks pretty illegal to me. I can't see the contact point.
He would argue that straight on camera angle is not realistic, and the player would be able to see if from the opposite corner of other side of table.
It is how a left-handed player would see that
It's borderline. The point of contact clearly almost entirely hidden by the head. But from the umpire angle, they still can see the point of contact. The right handed player also can see the contact. Thats why, they never complaning about that. But for lefty player, it is a big problem. Because from the position lefty player standing, the contact was hidden by the head.
Absolutely! Modern table tennis often cover the backhands while leaving their forehand side open. So lefty are having difficulty seeing Yoshimura's serve.
The only way is to move onto the forehand side which leaves the backhand side open, which means he have to move a lot quicker to cover. That being said, perhaps watching films where the righty players beating Yoshimura, or even Xu Xin to change and adapt, can be crucial to beat his serve, whether the umpire called it legal or not.
Xu Xin also had no problems beating Yoshimura after he adjusted. Look at his match up last weekend where he won 3:1 and 11:1 in the last set.
He put very fast, his jaw and face for to hidden the ball, he don’t need make it, he's a good player 👍🏼
I faced this exact problem in a tournament in 2014, my opponent hid the contact point on his serves, and i lost many points due to this, i complained to the umpire and then told him not to hide the contact point. after that he changed his serve.. i still lost though, because im weak against leftys
had the same issue, my opponent barely tossed the ball and no calls were made by the umpire, in the end I lost despite having an 8-5 lead in the decider.
I don't see the contact point...
illigal! I cannot see any contact when he serves!
You can't see contact and can't read the spin
Is that ligual?!
This serve is extremely effective against left handed players. You've shown us his two major victims, Xu Xin and Timo Boll, the top left handed players in the world. Thare is no question that the point of contact of this serve is not visible from the perspective of a left handed receiver. The umpire should take this into consideration about the legality of this serve used against the lefties.
I can't see any contact
Clearly illegal ! His head obviously hides the contact point.
The fact that Timo a man who is one of the best in reading the game did so much mistakes against this serve shows that they are illegal
The problem is always that the referee is sitting on the side - so he never sees well what the player is doing. So this organ is legal in the match. : -K. In fact, the contact point and the angle of the bat are not visible either, because also the full mod is always obscured. So it's completely illegal. This organ can only be returned after a lot of play, learning - not in a live match. The Chinese national team competition also has plenty of cover-triggered organs - which can be seen in the camera sometimes - but this is not visible in the referee’s chair.
It's an illegal serve but he do it very perfectly that it seems to be legal...
I think it's in the limit... By the way EmRatThich... do you have a link for the video of yoshimura at the end of this video? Thanks a lot!!!
I started training this serve yerterday, i going to eat and og into a match and after trying the this serve i tell how it worked ……..Ok i tried the serve and is effective !! I didnt do serve as good but the ones I did good was total surprise to my opponent player. Is like the serve comes shooting out faster cause they not see when i contacted the ball they opponent had Shorter time to react they only see ball as its jumps on table and not as I hit it !!!!
Legal,first the serve is vertical from an open palm,as the ball goes down the contact is visible too,only that it's too fast to read.that is why it's effective
Show me where in the ITTF Handbook where it says that only the contact point needs to be visible.
In this video, now it is very clear to see it from the opponent point of view that this serve is illegal
Coach, you are hilarious! 😂
Both legal and illegal.this serve is awesome. he hides it perfectly. this is innovation. I like it. I remember how troubled when I start playing table tennis in year 2000 , these days , service was hidden with arm. a good player must learn how to read serves.
if only the umpires are equiped with VAR then the problem will be settled once they look back at the slow motion
I think based on the footage that the severe is legal sometimes and illegal others. He hits it just a bit under his head so you can see it, making it legal, but with the little breathing room, it seems that sometimes it is illegal.
Even in slow motion , i still can't see the contact point. Imagine in a game . . . at normal speed.
coach, its illegal in the eyes of the opponent, but on the eyes of the umpire they are not, obviously they are on the right side of the table so they definitely can view the contact point of the ball and thats legal on their eyes however if the player complain that he can't see the contact point and thats the point when the umpire will make a decision. For me it is important to have a live feed video in covering an event so that the umpire could ask a replay video on opponents end, to guide him on his decision and then he could provide a necessary penalty if there is.. more power to you coach! please make a shout out on our club, watching from Minglanilla Table Tennis Club, cebu philippines. we love all your video. and we love you coach :) mwa mwa chup chup
sometimes you can see, but not always
I don’t think he intentionally tries to hide the point of contact with the ball. To keep the bounce low, he has to bring his upper body down and the momentum brings his head down and forward. As a result, there is only a extremely short time during which the contact point is visible , and only from the diagonal direction. The same server did not create an advantage for him against Xue Xin at all.
It wouldn't even be an issue if he weren't clearly throwing the ball backward out of his hand rather than, as the rule states, "near vertically upwards."
Even the toss seems illegal! Unless he does a high toss most of it is towards the body instead of it being virtually vertical!
People dont seem to understand legal vs acceptable. This concept is highest in serves. The serve is not legal because the ball is not visible the "entire time" during the serve. But it is an acceptable serve because the regulations of serves is not strict enough.
To the umpire and assistant umpire it is legal because they see the serve from the side view, but once they take a look from the back view (opponent side), they will discover that it's illegal.. it's the same trick like past when they were hiding the ball with their arm, also Youshimura should have respect to tt and uncover the contact point!
It's a Mix of Legal and Illegal serves. Sometimes he put his head down too much and block the contact point of the ball.
Table tennis needs some next gen camera analysis like tennis does
Service is really amazing, but it is illegal because the opponent cannot see the contact point
It's a great serve to use but it's pushing the boundaries of what is legal vs illegal.
Even if he would not hide the contact point the serve would be illegal, because you have to throw the ball straight in the air. Not in your direction...
I think it is in the line between illegal and legal, so you can not tell for sure and probably that is the reason nobody tells something. If the players (Timo Boll) were sure that it is legal they gone told something to the umpire. Samsonov did this in a match against Yoshimura and he changed his serv. The real problem with this serve is (even if you can clearly see the contact point) the speed of the bat when it touches the ball and the point of view of the bat.. Probably left handed players are the most vulnerable to those serves (and right handed against left handed).
Your emoji cracked me up! 🤣🤔
Head contact services are illegal, and what are the judges for?
By showing some clips outside the actual match doesn’t mean he’s done that ‘hide’ things every serve on the actual match. Go watch again the full match, the camera shows his serve many times in slow motion. Almost all of his serve have a clear visible contact point. Timo loss because of himself. He’s not performing well on that match, if 34% he lost points over the serve, doesn’t mean that ‘tricky serve’ affecting another 66% of the point he lost. Look at Timo play style in this match, he looks weak. 80% blocking 20% attacking. He’s so passive. He might not feeling well or out of mood during the match. I’m not defending, but Yoshimura has fought many top TT players using the same serve style. He can be defeated. It’s not that serve is so ‘tricky’, it’s just Timo Boll just not performing well. It’s true.
That's called a manipulating of facts and public opinion. Is the serve shown in slow-mo illegal? Yes. Were all 12 counted serves illegal? The public in here means, it doesn't matter, and accuse him of winning the match due to the illegal serve.
I think the fact that Xu Xin and Timo Boll are the ones who seem to have the hardest time with the serve is a huge indication that's it's just more hidden against lefties. Still a great serve nonetheless, but it's definitely on that borderline. Sometimes legal, sometimes not. And umpires have a lot of difficulty determining exactly how much the serve is blocked by the server's head from their angle
He is not hiding the ball. He hits it before it is visible.
player needs to bend down at least below the height of Yoshimura's chin to see the contact point. Otherwise, it not possible to see the contact point
If that were the case, why not receive in a position where you can’t see the contact point and all serves are illegal?
For me is fault..
1) The ball Is not tossed vertically, but It's take to his body;
2) the ball during Its airtime and the movement Is covered by the chest and the head;
3) the hit point between the ball and the Blade surface Is not clearly visible
It doesn't matter whether its the contact point that is hidden, or some other time. The ball has to be viewable at all times. see rules here page 36: ittf.cdnomega.com/eu/2019/08/2019ITTFHandbook_v2.pdf
In the past video thought that legal, but now I think is illegal. On the other side, some of Yoshimuras serves can be read cause you can see the contact point, but mostly he doesn't show the contact point
Obviously it's legal , although it's hard to receive . Better to chop for this serve
Obvious it's legal? The only thing that's obvious is that you don't know the rules. Go read the ITTF Handbook.
Man that's illegal af, like, it's literally impossible to se from where the other players are...
If you only sometimes hide the ball with your head and it can always be seen by the umpire it would be very difficult for the umpire to tell when he is hiding the ball from the other player
If you're a lefty, it is very hard to read the serve. But if you're also right handed, easier to read. I guess it's just where you're standing when you receive. Just my two cents
It depends on the view of the referee and umpire. If they can see the contact point then there should be no doubt that it's legal but in my opinion, Yoshimura's toss is not vertical enough to be counted as a legal serve.
It does NOT depend on the umpires view. The umpire must decide from the receivers perspective, meaning 90° turned.
Ilegal serv, cos can you see a head yosimura contac ball
The ball is clearly hidden during the serve. Thats illegal. if contact point or not does not matter!
No question that this is an illegal serve. Not only can't I see the contact point even in slow motion but this also looks intentional. Clearly he has worked on and mastered the art of making contact when he brings his head in front of the ball.
EmRatThich I am very surprised how and why you are debating a serve that is sooo obviously breaching the rules of serving. This service is being hidden, the ball is being hidden the racket is hidden. Then the ball suddenly appears as though it's shooting out of his left ear. Please, can you re study the serving rules again there must be some word that was misunderstood in the description of what a legal serve in Table Tennis is.