Thank you for playing the ending of Dvorak's cello concerto, it's one of my favorite concerto's. A wonderful piece of music, I actually have that recording you played, never get tired of this concerto.
So happy you raised this point of endings and loved you demonstrated the other side with Dvorák's Cello Concerto. It seems to me that you should explore the problem by talking about the pieces where the endings are exceptionally effective, like Shostakovich First op.10 or Janacek's Sinfonietta. Just two examples where I keep coming back to listen and compare different interpretations in this regard.
As soon as I read the title, I knew (or suspected) you'd talk about Bruckner 8 and Beethoven 3 based on your Bruckner 8 / Beethoven Ideal Symphony Cycle videos ;) And although, in Beethoven's case, I disagree completely (I think the Eroica is one of the greatest masterpieces ever written, including the coda), I must admit this is a very well thought out and entertaining video. Btw, even if I'm the only one who thinks so, I find the coda of Beethoven's 5 much more annoying, at least five times you think "ok, but now it's over" and then it just drags on with an additional noisy section, and another one, and another one...
I.V. gets a kick out of Vaughn Williams lamenting that Dvorak did not know how to choose an ending, so he just strings them all together. The comment works best in conjunction with the liner notes of a Dvorak recording wherein the commentator observes that the Carneval Overture is a capital offender in that respect... Of course, the overture is an absolute hoot, and I.V. never tires of it.
Fascinating topic! I totally agree with your appraisal of the Eroica finale - a let-down after the drama and power of the first three movements. I'm also thinking of the original coda to the finale of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra (a topic of one of your earlier chats). Such a big build-up and then - thump, it's over! The revised ending is magnificent, and I wonder why anyone would bother with the original, except perhaps as a curiosity. It might be fun to do a talk about the best codas - those endings that send a shiver down our spines or makes us stand up and cheer. You mentioned two (Bruckner's 8th and Dvorak's Cello Concerto) and there are a lot more that come to mind (for me, the coda of Mozart's 41st Symphony, among many others). Thanks for another fun chat!
After a month or so of listening to as much as I can from you, I absolutely love how "keep on listening" is not just a clever sign-off, but are in fact words that are absolutely necessary to your message. I will definitely keep on listening!
@@jgesselberty I would say that the first three movements of the Eroica symphony are works of a genius, but the final movement isn't. For the final movement it seems like Beethoven had simply run out of inspiration, but he still had to come up with something - anything - in order to finish his new symphony. So out of desperation (at least the way I imagine it) he picked some themes and motifs from previous works (like f.ex. the bass line from a set of variations for piano, and a short dance from his music for the ballet "Die Geschöpfe des Prometheus"), tossed in a fugue plus a coda, and then patched the whole thing up. The coda isn't the only thing that's wrong with the last movement. 😉
@@JohnA.Sutton Disagreeing with me doesn't necessarily mean that I am also wrong. It just means that you like the final movement better, than I do. But that's okay - each to his own taste. 🙂
Sometimes the worst of codas are the best of codas, depending on your mood, or the performance. The codas of Beethoven's Eroica and Tchakovsky's 5th can either make me jump for joy or shout "please stop". It may be the weather.
Very true. When you are in the mood for a tchaik 5 finale nothing else will suffice. When you arent in the mood its pretty noisey. But that a GREAT one, whether you are personally in the mood or not. Bad codas are always bad.
One of the best Strauss codas-Elektra. Was blown away the first time I heard that one. And I completely agree about Dvorak’s Cello Concerto as a perfect example of ending triumphantly after a period of quiet and calm.
Thanks for having the courage to point out just how terrible the Eroica coda is David. Especially after the doleful apotheosis that comes just before. It's like being awakened from a sublime dream by an old mechanical alarm clock...
Shostokovich 12th; I keep waiting for it to end. Alsp. Wagner's Rule Britannia Overture, which is pretty much one big coda. Great talk David. You have made my COVID isolation a bit more tolerable!
As the Symphony 12 was understood as a portrait of the communist regime, I feel the painfully noisy "waiting for the end" was intentional. In addition, note that the "evil" motif from the beginning triumphs at the end.
I agree completely with your analysis of the Eroica coda. It is jerky and ineffective. But then, it is a symphony I care little about as a whole. For me, the 6th, the Pastoral, is the most enjoyable and most meaningful of the entire 9. Another contributor here mentioned the Tchaikovsky 3rd "Polish" symphony's last movement coda as a choice for worst codas. I have to agree also. It is so bombastic and drawn out!. When does it ever end? Thank you for your channel. I recently discovered it and I am learning so much from your insights. You challenge my thinking on many levels, and I have years behind me of listening to recorded classical music. Really like your "chats" ! The one about your personal experience with Henze was great! Had a few chuckles from that one!
Not just classical music had these problems. How to end a song is a major headache for some song writers. In popular music, a gradual reduction of sound volume was used relentlessly because it was easier to do.
ah nothing i hate more in music than this fading out... i never understood why anyone would do that. ANY real ending is for moi better than this stupid fade out.
@@wilhelmberger9925 I expect that the prevalence of the fade-out in popular music had something to do with the fact that the endings of songs would be talked over on the radio anyway.
On the other side of the coin....aren't the best codas the ones which don't seem tagged on but are just a natural extension of what has gone before? Saint-Saens was very good at that, viz those wonderfully poetic codas at the ends of the first movements of the 4th and 5th piano concertos. And what about the astonishing coda of the first movement of Medtner's second concerto which so beautifully summarises all the movement's thematic material.
Wonderful to hear you play the finale of Dvorak's cello concerto. I had already picked my choice for the most inept coda, and coincidentally it's the last five minutes of Dvorak's 1st symphony. There's your rookie pilot circling the runway over and over before managing to land the plane. Dvorak certainly improved over the years.
Likewise. Beethoven got it right. But I do want to hear the last chord of all to be sec, NOT drawn out. Toscanini got it exactly right and nothing sounds out of tune. He might have used the same alterations as Szell which possibly originate with Weingartner.
Although it is often said that the banality is intentional, the coda of the finale to Shostakovich 5 can be hard to stomach - particularly when the conductor decides to slow down in a grand dramatic fashion in the last couple of bars (no rall marked in the score).
Agreed. Please don't slow down that coda. I think it plays just fine as a mockery of a happy ending at full speed if you choose to read it that way. Reminds me of one of my all-time favorite Dave Hurwitz reviews where he asked if a certain pianist/conductor even likes Tchaikovsky. I didn't fully understand Dave's objection until I heard his finale of Tchaikovsky's first. Just unbearably slow and boring.
Several of you have suggested that, but there's a problem in that bad codas are easy because they stick out like sore thumbs. Great codas aren't at all rare, but the problem is that in order to understand why they're great you need to hear the entire work in order to appreciate their relationship to the whole. I would probably have to do extended individual talks. There is one I have in mind that I might consider taking a swing at. Stay tuned...
@@DavesClassicalGuide Surely the coda of the last movement of Prokofiev's 5th deserves to be in some kind of category... "most original", "most exciting", or just overall "best"? :)
Cool! Heard the BBC Symphony play the Walton 1st live here in a western "suburb" of Bangkok, but the work, despite its evidence vigor and vehemence, seemed and seems oddly unmemorable. Not sure if liking everything EXCEPT the last two notes is better or worse than not recalling it vividly at all...
Dvorak did have trouble ending sometimes, though. The coda to his "Carnaval" Overture is almost funny. It is essentially padding and goes on far too long but the piece is such fun that I don't think anyone minds.
The most ludicrously protracted ending I've heard is the one to Berlioz's Fantasy on Shakespeare's "The Tempest" from Lélio. It sounds like a parody of Romantic bombast, but I think it's probably the genuine article.
i'm reminded of Bernstein's talk on Beethoven's 5th where he presented earlier thematic and development ideas Beethoven had, then threw away. It's a sort of revelatory experience to hear how silly and clumsy some were before he came up with just the thing. Composing is more than coming up with great melodies and other sounds; there's also great deal of problem-solving involved. i wonder how many rewrites of the 3rd's coda he agonized over before he finally had to accept that's what it would be and move on already?
My nomination for worst coda is the revised ending to Prokofiev’s Symphony No. 7. There are claims that he was coerced or tempted to tack it on, but it’s encouraging to note that recordings are now available using the original ending. My preference isn’t rooted in any musicological argument, but rather in the impression that an introspective and melancholic episode shouldn’t terminate in a musical equivalent of “just kidding.”
Yes, it's like putting a smiley face on the Mona Lisa. I'm surprised that any conductors have opted for the revised ending if they didn't have to for political reasons. In his recording, Andrew Litton provided it as a supplementary track, but I never programme it on my CD player as an alternative ending.
Rostropovich claimed that Prokofiev insisted the fast ending should never be performed after his death. And I have no reason not to trust to Rostropovich who was a close friend of the composer. That ending indeed makes no sense.
Oh, man... Bruckner, yes, of course. But, Heldenleben, and the Eroica? I love both... I think the Codas of both are the best parts of each one's end. Everything after the Battle, and most of the Eroica finale, are less interesting to me.. I think the Coda of the Eroica is perfect. Joyful, exuberant, some of the most exciting music ever. You lost me on this one. However, you can make it up to us with BEST Codas... Bruckner and Beethoven will figure large in that one, too.
I have always found the end of the Dvorak, New World unfulfilling. A major build up and then the last notes fade, where there should be a major symphonic ending. Completely agree about the Beethoven. In view of what comes before, this is overdone and overlong.
Interesting to see both your comment and the people agreeing with it. Along with the cello concerto played in the video, I thought the New World coda was the Platonic ideal of how to end one of those big cyclical late-19th century pieces. You hear references to the motto theme from the first movement, the 1st movement coda, the chords that begin the second movement, and the famous English horn theme from that movement. It then, like the cello concerto, sort of threatens to end quietly in introspection but then does so in grandeur instead, with that final chord being held in the winds.
It’s the coda of the 4th movement of Bruckner’s 6th that I am frustrated with. I always feel I want more. Maybe Bruckner should have swapped the coda for the 1st movement.
I love the ending to "Ein Heldenleben," particularly its similarity to the famous opening of "Also Sprach Zarathustra." I agree with you on the other two, though, and the last movement of the "Eroica" has always seemed to me far below the quality of the rest. I'd nominate another example of a bad ending to an otherwise great piece: George Gershwin's "An American in Paris." Gershwin himself kept nibbling away at it, making various cuts in an effort to make his ending work, and he still never got it quite right.
An interesting contrast to the coda of Ein Heldenleben (A Hero's Life) would be the nearly contemporaneous A Hero's Song by Dvorak - his final orchestral work. Although this work putatively did not have a program, it's hard to believe that the notes and melodies were random, and if in fact this was quasi-autobiographical, then based on its glorious and majestic coda it would seem that Dvorak was leaving his orchestral career on a very high and triumphant note indeed.
With the right recording, e.g. Szell/Cleveland or Kletzki/Czech Phil, everything in Beethoven 3 fits together. Of course, we need a triumphant conclusion--the "hero" of the Eroica is Beethoven. It makes perfect musical sense. The theme is HIS theme--it's been present in his oeuvre throughout his career at that point--in a contradanse, in the Creatures of Prometheus, in the piano variations Op. 35, and now the finale of the symphony that busts the genre out of the 18th century. Thus we go from the verge of despair and defeat to triumph, a dramatic parallel of Beethoven's emotional journey. I'd also venture to say it's Variation IX and not really a coda formally, though it does serve as a conclusion. I will give you the point that it's not easy to conduct, which is why we see such a range of interpretations that range from wholly dissatisfying to electric.
As for one of the best endings, though dangerous and/or at least confusing for concertgoers hearing the piece for the first time, would be that of Sibelius #5. Brings such a smile to my face every time. (And I noticed another commentor here panned it and wanted to add it to the "worst" list. Such variation in personal preferences, even among us classical fans!)
Hi David. While I agree that the revised coda to the first movement of the Bruckner is better than the original, I am such a Bruckner fan that I enjoy the original coda. If only he had made it longer! :P. I am glad you like the ending to the Dvorak cello concerto as I feel that it , like the rest of that composition, is Heavenly!!! Oh btw thanks for championing Dvorak's work. Through you I discovered his piano concerto which has become one of my very favorite compositions :) YeeeeHaaah!
I learned of Dvorak's String Quartet No. 8 many years ago through Dave, I think from one of those early Amazon reviews back before they conquered all. That is a piece that literally no one has ever heard but I think it is amazing. Similar to the Borodin second quartet, just beautiful melody after beautiful melody. I still don't quite get Dvorak's piano concerto though, despite Dave's advocacy and the brilliance of the opening theme in the first movement.
@@frankbaum5236 I'll have to check out that string quartet. I had to listen several times to the piano concerto before it revealed itself to me :). It has it's own pacing and language in my opinion and it can thwart expectations. Once I started flowing with it I was hooked. Also I find that the Richter recording with Kleiber and the youtube video from 1966 with Richter and a Czech conductor are the most compelling for me.
@@markgibson6654 I knew that Richter was a big proponent of the Dvorak piano concerto and I have heard the Richter/Kleiber recording before though don't currently have access to it. I'll need to check out the UA-cam video and give it another listen.
Maybe that Coda doesn’t belong at the end of the Finale of “Eroica”, perhaps somewhere else in the Symphony, but I like it. And it sounds innovative for it’s time.
Strauss's coda to the coda obviously quotes Zarathustra so I assume he's making a Nietzschean point about all-powerful nature. Maybe that nature wins in the end and therefore has to supersede the first human coda. The Dvorak coda is indeed brilliant.
I really like the end of the original coda to the first movement of the Bruckner 8th. I just don't like it THERE. I'm not sure where it should go, but I certainly don't want it to disappear entirely.
I agree that the 4th mvt of the Eroica is not in the same league as the first 3 movements, particularly thematically, but he subjects the matterial to some great development and contrapuntal exporation, which raises the interest greatly. The coda---yes, it does seem somewhat mundane, but I think the repetitions of the double chord pattern are slightly reminiscent of the opening 2 thunderclaps of movement 1, which are extraordinarily attention--grabbing, so perhaps Beethoven was trying to tie the symphony together with a variation on that reference?
I stopped at the Eroica. I love every note of it and don't want to have somebody plant thoughts in my head about why I shouldn't that I'll start listening for in the future. But I'm not the least bit offended that you think it's badly flawed.
@@Alex-ze2xt I have plenty of performances that work for me. I realize the finale isn't trying to be the same weight as the 2 opening movements (what could be?) and love it the way it is, wouldn't want a note of it changed including the coda which I think is thrilling in a good performance.
Don, you are not the only one to think that every note of the Eroica is great. I certainly have no problems with it. As for Beethoven not having perfected the art of writing a coda, you could - if you wanted to - say much the same about the Fifth, where there is one false ending after another (a bit like Haydn 90), not to mention the glorious Eighth which some argue has no proper ending at all. I think all these examples just go to prove how original Beethoven was: not one ending of any of his symphonies is carbon-copy and he knew what he was doing all right. That's the difference between a genius and us mere mortals.
Unhappy endings!- I wonder what Dave thinks of the ending of the Sibelius 5th? This has always bothered me in view of the grandeur of the ending of his second symphony. The melodies and themes of the 5th are among the most beautiful ever composed (in my opinion) but I was always waiting for a majestic coda instead of those 6 annoying spread out chords! This, to me is one of the most unhappy endings. Even Sibelius' original version from 1915 has a more definitive ending.
i think i find critical videos like this more interesting as all i hear is reverence for the greatest composers, i never hear my own thoughts like “i love this mahler symphony - except that bit - that significant long bit” my personal one is beethovens 4th, not bad per-se - but the movements are perfection to me bar the last which is entirely forgettable
With Beethoven, I agree with another poster that the ending of the Harp Quartet is very weak. The ending of the F major Rasomufsky isn't so great either. Weaker still I'd say is the ending of the C major cello sonata.
Intentionally over-the-top, satirically bad coda writing is probably best seen in Malcolm Arnold's 'A Grand Grand Overture', I think. Played for laughs, it is in fact an effective piece, but as has been pointed out in the video and comments, doesn't seem to know how to end, and so tries multiple options. Thanks for the video David.
Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet has that awful "inartistic" ending. Stokowski rewrote it and I'm a huge fan of that version. I remember encountering the piece for the first time when I played it in an orchestra in high school. I was really confused by the bombastic ending at the time and after a little research, indeed discovered that there was controversy surrounding it. The bombastic ending has grown on me a tiny bit over time but it always felt really shoehorned and weak to me and to an extent still does.
I’d like to put in a bid for the “feel-good” ending that Prokofiev tacked on to his Symphony No. 7. The world-weary sigh that opens the work perfectly sets up its “death” at the end. Prokofiev allegedly affixed the everything’s-just-fine coda when his friends advised that the pessimistic ending might draw the disdain, if not ire, of the Soviet artistic police; the composer is also said to have begged his friends to excise the coda in performances after his death. Recordings - and probably live performances, I’d bet - run about 50/50 for inclusion of the coda. I’ll opt for the morbid, and more honest, ending every time.
The Eroica finale is problematic for reasons besides just the coda, but the coda really is a sorry excuse. Sets of variations as finales often don't quite live up to their task. I think Beethoven's Harp Quartet finale also misses the mark, for example. Brahms pulls it off successfully in the 4th Symphony.
Totally agree on both points (I think Brahms' codas, in general, are among the best ever written). As for the Eroica - you get, for starters, two of the greatest symphonic movements ever written - one truly heroic, the other deeply tragic. And then comes what is to me an insubstantial scherzo (a mere frivolity, actually), and finally - this hopelessly meandering finale. But I think Beethoven's real problem with this work was that of overall formal balance: he "found himself" with two musical colossi* (Movement 1 & 2), and simply couldn't maintain that extremely high level of inspiration composing the following ones (*colossi indeed: who could have foreseen the coming of these two after the second symphony - or any of his other previous works?). It's the same with Schubert's unfinished: have you ever listened to what was left of its scherzo? No wonder Schubert gave it all up!
A few mentions of Tchaikovsky no. 5 here. I’ve given some thought to how the 4th movement of Tchaik 5 might balance if it were not the coda cut, but the beginning. Starting at the timp roll would mean the big tune would roar out for the first time in the movement (and I think in a major key in the whole work?) after a build-up, instead of beginning the movement and saying “we’ve arrived already, but we’re a bit early so let’s drive round the block “.
I've never been happy with the end of the Franck symphony. It just seems to come to an arbitary stop with a full orchestra ascending scale. The worst dumbest performance sabotage comes with the Schubert Great C Major. That giant > on the last chord is so obviously NOT a diminuendo but a slashing accent. Anyone who thinks it's a dim. sign has no business conducting the piece. Grrr.
i completely agree that Schubert intended a dramatic accent on the final note of the "Great" C-monster [as weary Canadian orchestral musicians, especially the overworked string players, are fond of labeling that symphony of excessive-length...] Your phraseology "slashing" is absolutely appropriate... 'Schubie' himself is partially to blame, though. His handwriting is so bad that it is difficult to tell from visual cues alone what is meant; however, the context is, as you note, so obviously revelatory. IMHO, the final chord [or is it the penultimate?---> do not have the score with me] of the first movement of the "Unvarnished" symphony [b-] is actually more difficult to discern. There, both an accent and a diminuendo are acceptable alternatives. It would be informative to see what the editors of the Neue-Schubert-Ausgabe have chosen.~
About the Eroica symphony, probably it is because of the last chord. I wonder someone could explain us. Some notes are missing? It is so light as a Beethovenish slam crash sound.
I love that--it completes the gentle descending bird-call motive from the first movement. It's also one of Handel's most characteristic ending gestures.
Same here. In fact, I was gonna mention it but you beat me to it. Those two chords/notes sound silly and little effective to me. The coda from the first movement of Sibelius 5th Symphony also leaves me somewhat disappointed, but again, it's the very last notes which don't suit well.
This is same piece whose third movement is Frere Jacques variations but in minor. I think the dum-dum is great for a bit of light heartedness, not something you normally associate with Mahler.
Dear Mr Hurwitz! I wonder if you have made a talk about recordings of Mozart's piano quartets K 478 and K 493 ? If not I would like to ask you to consider to make it. Best wishes Fred.
Whether he has made a talk about these or not, the Mozart piano quartets are gems of the chamber music repertoire. Go listen stat if you don't know them.
I’m not sure about your assessment of Ein Heldenleiban. I think Strauss prophetically hit the nail on the head about the end game of a great hero. I think of General McArthur, a military genus who Truman thought over stepped his station. I shall return v Old Soldiers never die, they just fade away. Strauss nailed it! Second, also not sure about the Dvorak. as a bass trombonist in a quaint metropolitan symphony, I’ve played in the back with cellists from Lynn,& Zara, up to Yo Yo and beyond and while I get that the coda was supposed to be Dvorak’s mom’s soul ascending up to heaven, IMHO, it always sounds to me like a vaudeville playoff tag. PS, terrific trombone parts, both pieces!
The LONG coda to Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony comes out of nowhere with no preparation. But audiences love it. Otto Klemperer hated it and even composed his own coda - issued on an EMI CD with Bavarian Radio Orchestra live (his studio recording with the Philharmonia uses Mendelssohn's coda).
I was wondering if someone would mention that one. I have no problem with it because it's thematically nothing but a transformation of the symphony's motto theme, so it works for me.
@@DavesClassicalGuide To me, it makes the impression of actually being a movement of its own - an epilogue, if you will. And I like the ending as Mendelssohn wrote it, and I dislike Klemperer's rewrite.
@@marknewkirk4322 I agree. Klemperer’s rewrite of Mendelssohn’s triumphant coda is flat as a pancake. Impossible to imagine anyone preferring it to the original.
The "endless" Beethoven codas aren't as "endless" as many of those of Tchaikovsky, and I love them all, certainly including the Eroica ending and that "eeking" that you emulate. I think it's brilliant, you think it's schlock. To each his own.
The Eroica finale isn't up to the rest of symphony; but a well-thought out performance can make it sound better. The best coda I've ever heard is on the old Reader's Digest set with Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic.
I think the coda is brilliant (and Dave has recommended dozens of pieces by lesser composers who cannot come close to second rate Beethoven which that coda is not), the problem is rather that the whole thing feels a bit tacked on after the slow section of the finale and the whole thing is basically "only" a brilliant "throwout" ("Kehraus" in German, which used to be the last dance to "sweep out" the audience). It is also quite short, too short to be offensive by outstaying its welcome I think (The "tacked on"-feeling is even worse in the Egmont ouverture whose coda/triumph might be better scored and more effective overall.)
Speaking of Leibowitz codas, I always get a hoot out of the insane coda of the first movement of Schubert's Great 9th. He's already playing the movement at a ridiculous tempo and then the coda is the definition of "hanging on for dear life". A great rendition of Schubert's 9th if you happen to be in a car chase or something
There are some MAJOR orchestration problems in Eroica’s coda. Usually out of tune in the winds. You cannot have the 1st flute, (I believe) second clarinet, second oboe in one of the last sections playing the melody against the whole orchestra.
Dave, greetings from the Penal Colonies. Your "BBBRRRUUUCCCKKKNNNEEERRRSSS" are becoming so seismic, it is making anyone living near the San Andreas Fault nervous! Great stuff !!! Best wishes, B
I actually don’t mind the original ending to the first movement of Bruckner’s 8th - I’ve been called a noisy, ungainly ball of brass myself!! That said, the revised ending does flow more logically from the preceding material and your suggestion of using the original brass as an excerpt for a film score is a shrewd one. As for suggesting Beethoven wrote a single wrong note in his life, particularly the Eroica, thems fightin’ words for a lot of purists who prostrate themselves before Saint Ludwig. I’ll sit back and watch the food fight on that notion in the comments. Trusting Master Szell in Beethoven is always a good choice, that much I will say.
I find your view of the Eroica ending fascinating not because it is wrong, but rather because I think you have a point but it simply never bothered me, -just loved the piece. I think the rest of the piece is so good that we are simply willing to give Beethoven a pass, he is only human after all. It also seems to me, as some of your commenters have pointed out, that the same criticisms could be leveled at the ending of the 5th, which at the very least seems a bit carried away. I guess it's in the 7th where he finally gets it right, an ending in perfect proportion and dramatic effect to match what came before.
For me the worst coda that wasn’t supposed to be terrible is of the finale of Tchaikovsky’s 5th. It should end after the climactic chord when audience members who don’t know the work applaud anyway! Also there seems to be little agreement on how to pace those last four notes. I agree with you on the Dvorak Cello Concerto and love all the musing before he wakes you up with his terrific ending. I have never understood why Ein Heldenleben is as popular as it is. Strauss should have stopped composing tone poems after Don Quixote, for me his greatest. I can understand your opinion of the Eroica coda, though only the last two notes bother me. They never seem right no matter how long or short they are. As for an intentionally bad and very funny coda, I recommend that of Ligeti’s Concert Romanesc-a real hoot!
It cannot end on the chord just before the grand pause bar, if that is what you mean, as that is a chord in the wrong key (the dominant). I believe conductors have, on occasion, added a dominant 7th to the chord as a signal to listeners to avoid premature applause! I think one other problem with that movement is that it is too short - I don't feel this finale "deserves" its apotheosis on the motto theme in the major key as there hasn't been enough struggle for it to overcome and we've heard elements of the theme too many times already in that movement. Hence the full statement sounds empty and cheerless.
A bit of fun is to remember a deliberately bad coda: Malcolm Arnold’s ending to his Grand Grand Overture. This after the vacuum cleaners have been shot.
Then there's the coda to the Finale of Beethoven's 8th....Up and down the F major triad, one empty farewell gesture after another, after another - like that loud, obnoxious, drunken guest who, while putting on his coat to leave, JUST WON'T LEAVE.... But in that case I think Beethoven is actually poking fun at composers who don't know when to END IT, ALREADY....Same thing at the end of Dvorak's CARNIVAL OVERTURE - except I doubt that Dvorak was "kidding."
There's no question that Dvorak was kidding. It's a carnival for God's sake. And Beethoven's coda is one of the funniest things he ever wrote. There's a difference between bad music and funny music, but many have a very hard time telling the difference, admittedly (and I'm not saying this to cast aspersions, believe me--it's just a general observation).
@@DavesClassicalGuide I have to admit, I wasn't sure if I agreed with you that Dvorak was kidding. But upon digging out Szell's 1963 Cleveland recording of the CARNIVAL ("a smoker," as you'd say, and which I hadn't really listened to for a few years)...Yes he IS kidding. And Szell paradoxically reveals the humor by mercilessly and precisely throttling that coda like his worst enemy...Just as he (er, ah) "releases" the foul emanation in the 2nd movement of Haydn's 93rd as no one else does or ever will....It's practically Shakespearean in its broad humor, as in "Dost thy other mouth call me?" In fact, now I KNOW I have to listen to Szell's Beethoven cycle again !
@@DavesClassicalGuide Could Beethoven possibly be poking fun at himself with the ending to his 8th, perhaps his own conclusions to his 3rd and 5th symphonies?
My choice is the coda to Tchaikovsky's 5th. Now don't get me wrong - a triumphant coda is absolutely correct for the piece, but considering how much of that motto theme you already hear throughout the finale, hearing it blasted through the coda just comes across as tedious and grating, at least to me. To be fair I'm not a big fan of the finale in general, but I put up with it because the first 3 movements of the symphony are some of the best music Tchaikovsky ever wrote.
Yes, it seems to go on and on and on. What makes it worse, some conductors just drag it out as well. Markevitch is a classic example. Has to be one of the weak spots of his overall great cycle.
The ending of Walton's 1st Symphony always has me shouting, 'It'd be great if you could finish it right HERE'. And then it stutters on. Wonderful symphony in many ways, but the close is a real botch.
So enjoyed this, many thanks. Would you consider one on ‘Masters of the coda’? I’m often stunned by how good Mozart’s are, eg at the end of the Clarinet Quintet slow movement, or the conclusion of the Adagio of the D major String Quintet K593.
@@ronaldbeech6587 Would have to contend that the very endings of all three of the great last "JCWT" violin concertos are very disappointing. The end of K.364 (the Sinfonia Concertante) is much preferable to those of K. 216, 218, and 219.
Funny story on that note. I always loved the coda to the concert version of Mozart's Magic Flute Overture. Then I learned it was actually appended on by Wagner.
Als ich vor 50 Jahren die Eroica zum ersten Mal hörte, habe ich ziemlich gelacht, weil ich dachte, er sei so verzweifelt wegen des nicht gelingenden Endes, dass er dann irgendeine Skizze nahm.
I'm not a big fan of the coda to Beethoven's Hammerklavier. It's a great, yet thorny sounding, double fugue finale, BUT the conclusion is not-so-great. Just seems like he all of a sudden needed to get back to the original key and just end it!
I actually like that one, the little reprisal of the fugue theme after that enormous sustained cadence is a great joke, and that movement really has to end as emphatically as it does. The other late sonata codas are amazing, i don't think I need to mention how great Op. 110/111's codas are.
Great video and interesting topic! I completely agree with your assessment of all three codas you selected. I was wondering while watching if the finale of Sibelius’ Fifth would make it into your worst three. It’s in mine between the Bruckner and the Strauss. I would be curious about your choices for best codas in a future video. I bet my favorite coda isn’t in your top 10, or top 100, or even top 1000. It’s the coda from the first movement of Rutland Boughton’s Third Symphony. I just LOVE it, and, much to my embarrassment, I cannot justify it nor even explain why I love it. Maybe I’m just a sucker for downward harp glissandi and heavy brass playing in B major?
Sibelius had a special issue--he was so good at creating momentum that the had a hard time figuring out how to stop once he got going. At the same time, some of his endings are among the most personal and characteristic in all of music. He deserves a talk all his own.
I second that - a talk on Sibelius’ codas is definitely a worthy topic. I love his coda to his seventh symphony (one of my favorite symphonies by anyone), the coda to his cantata Vainon virsi, and the glorious coda to the first movement of his fifth symphony.
I agree that the Fifth's ending is underwhelming. It seems to work better in theory than practice. The Seventh is still an underappreciated symphony. The middle section isn't stellar, but it's bookended by two of the most sublime passages in all of music.
I think the Eroica finale, in order to work, needs to be played with absolutely no heroism, or any significant amount of control or mannerism or sanity or any sense of purpose--basically anything you would expect in a finale of a grand heroic symphony. Effectively, I think it should kinda feel like the finale to Nielsen 6. That way, instead of a disappointment, it's more of a flippant, rage-inducing subversion of expectations--purposefully unsatisfying instead of accidentally unsatisfying. Rather than a hero failing to hero, it's a hero giving up heroism and just doing cocaine and partying for the rest of his life. Then again, this may just be me--I'm a fan of the pointless subversion of expectations.
Well done. I completely agree. At the end the symphony, Beethoven makes an ironic nose thumbing gesture in the direction of the 'hero' who inspired it. It's as though he had a bust on top of his piano all the way through but finally decides to throw it against the wall. Personally I find it thrilling.
Nielsen 6--- now THAT is an odd duck. A certain unnamed Icelandic conductor (name not revealed to protect the guilty^^) has programmed that twice in the Greater Bangkok area, while neglecting the much-more accessible (or at least appealing) 4th and 5th. A trifle strange, that, to put it mildly...
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc For that, check out Schoenberg’s setting of Byron’s “Ode to Napoleon”, which ends with the Eb Major chords that begin the Eroica.
Two reasons why those exposed violin quadruple stops in the coda of the Eroica sound out of tune come to mind. One is that the voicing requires the players to stop a perfect fifth on adjacent strings (Eb4, Bb4), which is somewhat awkward to tune in the best of times. The other is that the first several use the open G string, but having the third of the chord on an open string means you can't lower it to make a just third. Either you have to give up on tuning the chord justly, or you have to raise the root and the fifth instead, in which case it would probably be impractical to get the rest of the orchestra to match you.
Wow, I didn't think I'd be saying this, but on hearing it for the first time here, that Bruckner original coda actually is rather bad. That one I agree with you!
Interesting. I find that chord sequence, at least in (one of?)the Karajan recording (s?) to be deeply moving. But I can see how Jose Carmona would be right in saying that sequence is difficult to pull off.
What a funny and insightful talk! I like it so much that you connect wit with wisdom! But, hands down, the Bruckner is just a little bit unfair. At last, he himself altered the Coda, and it was good! The original coda is just a thing for the worshippers, not for the listeners. It would be the same with the original ending of Bartóks "Concerto for Orchestra". Besides: In my opinion, the finale of Beethoven's 5th is worse than the one of the 3rd, but that's a question of personal taste (and you mentioned it). My personal choices include another Bruckner, the coda of the 4th movement of the 7th symphony. In my opinion, it wants to be the climax, but doesn't succeed, because it's too short and somewhat out of balance. Every time I listen to the 7th, I'm dissatisfied. I prefer by far it's neighbours, the 6th and the 8th. In my opinion also a bad ending has "Petrushka" in the ballet version. I know, it's a dead puppet, but also dead puppets deserve a better finale than this. Nevertheless, my worst ending is Scriabin's "Poem of ecstasy". Which chord will be the final one? And then comes the final cord, which must be final, because after being held for 12 seconds or so, no brass player could go further. (In parenthesis: Nearly the same situation you have, in pianissimo, at the end of the 1st act of Strauss' "Die Frau ohne Schatten": One chord, one chord more, one more chord, the final one now, no, one more and one more and so on. But it's such a beautiful work!)
I agree it's not really Bruckner's fault--it's a disgrace to subsequent generations of Brucknerites, who wouldn't know the good stuff from the junk if their lives depended on it. I'm not quite with you on the finale of the 7th though. It is a bit of an anticlimax after the first movement, but then, the work itself is not a "finale symphony," and I think that once we accept this fact and don't expect the finale to have the biggest climax, but rather take a lighter approach, it works just fine. That's true of the 6th as well. We forget too easily that not every post-Beethoven symphony must be a "tragedy to triumph" heroic progression.
Really, sometimes you just have to enjoy a composer for what he is, rather than what he is not. Scriabin was a cosmic looney, which is why he could never finish his transcendental symphony, Mysterium. As Wiki says, "Scriabin intended the performance to be in the foothills of the Himalayas in India, a week-long event that would be followed by the end of the world and the replacement of the human race with 'nobler beings'."
@@DavesClassicalGuide I agree that the 7th is not a finale-symphony, but that doesn't mean a symphony out of balance. I have nothing against a lighter approach, but I'm not sura that this was Bruckner's intention here. To me, the finale is breathless, more Havergal Brian than Bruckner. But that's me... Nevertheless - what an Adagio...! And what a Scherzo!
@@andreassmith7773 I try to enjoy Scriabin's "Ecstasy"... I try really hard, even with the score. But to me it's more sweat than sperm or even transcendent light. I do like some of his piano works, and the "Prometheus" is interesting enough, to listen at it more often. But the "Ecstasy" is a book with seven seals to me, I must confess.
@@edwinbaumgartner5045 I actually hear it as Bruckner's attempt at humor, but you're right: that ending is a pale reflection of that to the first movement, and for that reason it can't help but sound too small. I wonder if we'd feel differently if Bruckner had not felt the usual obligatory need to cyclically recall earlier music, and simply wrote an ending using fresh material.
I totally agree with the Eroica. I llllllooooovvvvve the Eroica as a whole, but I feel always somewhat awkward and embarrassed when I play or hear the coda. Other bad codas to very good, great and worthy pieces are - in my opinion - Tchaikovsky's Fifth when these stupid triplets in E Major start and the main theme of the Symphony returns in this shallow and empty triumphant manner. It's such a gorgeous symphony - and then this... And another one: Beethoven's Egmont Overture. Not good either... by no means...
Sir Malcolm Sargent excised those 'stupid triplets' in his recording of the 5th with the LSO. The result is dramatically superior, in my view (but it's still an overlong and unremittingly noisy coda).
I did not mean my comment to be an attack on you. I respect your opinions and usually agree with you. I am just stating that this is a case where I do not. @@DavesClassicalGuide
@@pauldrapiewski6761 I don't feel attacked and there is no reason you need to agree with me. It just seems to me that there is no news in your initial comment. I know that others will feel differently. No big deal.
I nominate the coda of the last movement of Tchaikovsky's 3rd symphony. When composers try out different endings, they usually discard the ones that do not work. Tchaikovsky left each one and kept adding another. As a result, we get a series of ineffective endings, each one played twice in succession!
Dear Dave, I am not saying that my suggestion is missing in this list for different reasons, but if you ask me about an extremely unsatisfying ending, I would bring up the debussy violin sonata. I have listened to many recordings with all of my favourite musicians and every time I was feeling that it is just stopping at a random spot. That domehow hurts me in a very special way.
Oh I disagree: to me the Code of the Eroica is the greatest Coda of all time.... Beethoven knew what he was doing, and he intended it to be just as it is...
The eroica... Well, Napoleon's ending wasn't too glorious neither, was it? But I totally agree. Although I hate the coda of the 5th even more, but that's just me. Thanks, Dave...
oh i knew before playing the video that you would upset me in some way, shape or form - ha ha - sure enough you did with Ein Heldenleben which for me is a perfect piece of music from first note to the last - if I were to quibble with an ending to a Strauss tone poem it would be the end of Thus Spake Zarathrustra which always seemed to me a bit contrived
Thinking a little more of this, someone once told me that the Eroica is such an enormous STRUCTURE. And I agreed. It's as if every note has it's perfect place. So the coda may seem substandard when viewed in isolation, but it needs to be appreciated as part of the whole. And to me it gives the impression of the only ending possible. Is the Eroica the greatest symphony ever written? I think it is a good contender.
I've learned to love the typical Beethoven ending. They are hilarious, and I know Beethoven knew they were, so he took it to extremes. Brahms 1st has a Beethoven ending, albeit a short one. Dudley Moore's Beethoven parody is right on, and only slightly exaggerated.
Maybe Beethoven's Eroica is just a little bit too bloated. First movement development section, whoa, just endless. Slow movement, magnificent but too much pathos maybe. Brightness of the scherzo, brilliant contrast. The finale, actually is a masterful exercise in contrapuntal writing. But I'm not sure how else Beethoven could have ended it. Interesting talk, but I still love this symphony and I can't criticize too much, it's legendary.. I have a candidate for an unsatisfactory ending to a major work.- Tschaikovskys Manfred symphony...
You can criticize something and still love it. Indeed, its faults may be some of the most lovable bits. For example, I love the first movement development--all of it.
Coda from Villa-Lobos Guitar concerto last movement is horrible ... a kind of cadenza was running at the middle, then is suddenly cut by a guillotine tonic chord out of nothing. It is so clumsy that when I listened to it for the first time in a vinyl LP, I thought of a jump from the turntable stylus ...
Agree with the Eroica and but would add New World Symphony and Sibelius 5 as examples of great codas ruined! For me both are exceptional codas up until the final few bars which, to end the whole symphony, are a huge letdown!
Thank you for playing the ending of Dvorak's cello concerto, it's one of my favorite concerto's. A wonderful piece of music, I actually have that recording you played, never get tired of this concerto.
So happy you raised this point of endings and loved you demonstrated the other side with Dvorák's Cello Concerto. It seems to me that you should explore the problem by talking about the pieces where the endings are exceptionally effective, like Shostakovich First op.10 or Janacek's Sinfonietta. Just two examples where I keep coming back to listen and compare different interpretations in this regard.
As soon as I read the title, I knew (or suspected) you'd talk about Bruckner 8 and Beethoven 3 based on your Bruckner 8 / Beethoven Ideal Symphony Cycle videos ;) And although, in Beethoven's case, I disagree completely (I think the Eroica is one of the greatest masterpieces ever written, including the coda), I must admit this is a very well thought out and entertaining video. Btw, even if I'm the only one who thinks so, I find the coda of Beethoven's 5 much more annoying, at least five times you think "ok, but now it's over" and then it just drags on with an additional noisy section, and another one, and another one...
I.V. gets a kick out of Vaughn Williams lamenting that Dvorak did not know how to choose an ending, so he just strings them all together. The comment works best in conjunction with the liner notes of a Dvorak recording wherein the commentator observes that the Carneval Overture is a capital offender in that respect... Of course, the overture is an absolute hoot, and I.V. never tires of it.
Agree about the coda of the 5th. The erotica coda at least males a certain sense and fits with the rest of the work. The 5th always makes me chuckle.
@@colinwrubleski7627Who’s I.V.?
Fascinating topic! I totally agree with your appraisal of the Eroica finale - a let-down after the drama and power of the first three movements.
I'm also thinking of the original coda to the finale of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra (a topic of one of your earlier chats). Such a big build-up and then - thump, it's over! The revised ending is magnificent, and I wonder why anyone would bother with the original, except perhaps as a curiosity.
It might be fun to do a talk about the best codas - those endings that send a shiver down our spines or makes us stand up and cheer. You mentioned two (Bruckner's 8th and Dvorak's Cello Concerto) and there are a lot more that come to mind (for me, the coda of Mozart's 41st Symphony, among many others).
Thanks for another fun chat!
After a month or so of listening to as much as I can from you, I absolutely love how "keep on listening" is not just a clever sign-off, but are in fact words that are absolutely necessary to your message. I will definitely keep on listening!
Thank you! I thought you were going to say that after listening to as much as you can from me, you decided to jump of the bridge after all!
Most comments seem to agree with you but I have always really enjoyed the finale to the Eroica, including the Coda.
I enjoy it too. That doesn't mean it's all equally great--but certainly enjoyable.
The Eroica is a work of genius, but the coda is obviously the work of a young genius attempting to impress.
@@jgesselberty I would say that the first three movements of the Eroica symphony are works of a genius, but the final movement isn't. For the final movement it seems like Beethoven had simply run out of inspiration, but he still had to come up with something - anything - in order to finish his new symphony. So out of desperation (at least the way I imagine it) he picked some themes and motifs from previous works (like f.ex. the bass line from a set of variations for piano, and a short dance from his music for the ballet "Die Geschöpfe des Prometheus"), tossed in a fugue plus a coda, and then patched the whole thing up. The coda isn't the only thing that's wrong with the last movement. 😉
@@JohnA.Sutton Disagreeing with me doesn't necessarily mean that I am also wrong. It just means that you like the final movement better, than I do. But that's okay - each to his own taste. 🙂
Sometimes the worst of codas are the best of codas, depending on your mood, or the performance. The codas of Beethoven's Eroica and Tchakovsky's 5th can either make me jump for joy or shout "please stop". It may be the weather.
Absolutely. A lot depends on the performance.
Very true. When you are in the mood for a tchaik 5 finale nothing else will suffice. When you arent in the mood its pretty noisey. But that a GREAT one, whether you are personally in the mood or not. Bad codas are always bad.
That Bruckner coda is the worst. It's like someone shouting "Ta-dah!" 30 times in a row.
It should be used as a ringtone.
I like Tintner's edition. This is original.
@@utaisa9397 Is the first draft of a novel better than the version that gets published?
Old joke: 2 concert goers chatting after a performance
" did your husband enjoy the Bruckner?"
" I think so. He applauded eight times"
I use the brass opening from the last movement (no other instruments) as ringtone and it rocks!@@im2801ok
One of the best Strauss codas-Elektra. Was blown away the first time I heard that one. And I completely agree about Dvorak’s Cello Concerto as a perfect example of ending triumphantly after a period of quiet and calm.
Thanks for having the courage to point out just how terrible the Eroica coda is David. Especially after the doleful apotheosis that comes just before. It's like being awakened from a sublime dream by an old mechanical alarm clock...
The ending of Dvorak's Carnival Overture is proportionately long but I love it.
Yes, but it's funny--the length is part of the joke.
Shostokovich 12th; I keep waiting for it to end. Alsp. Wagner's Rule Britannia Overture, which is pretty much one big coda. Great talk David. You have made my COVID isolation a bit more tolerable!
The trouble with the Shostakovich 12th is that I am ready for it to end by the first movement.
As the Symphony 12 was understood as a portrait of the communist regime, I feel the painfully noisy "waiting for the end" was intentional. In addition, note that the "evil" motif from the beginning triumphs at the end.
@@ondrejsedo8659 Indeed it is, but the topical reference can't trump the musical impact - it's ultimately dull.
I agree completely with your analysis of the Eroica coda. It is jerky and ineffective. But then, it is a symphony I care little about as a whole. For me, the 6th, the Pastoral, is the most enjoyable and most meaningful of the entire 9. Another contributor here mentioned the Tchaikovsky 3rd "Polish" symphony's last movement coda as a choice for worst codas. I have to agree also. It is so bombastic and drawn out!. When does it ever end? Thank you for your channel. I recently discovered it and I am learning so much from your insights.
You challenge my thinking on many levels, and I have years behind me of listening to recorded classical music. Really like your "chats" !
The one about your personal experience with Henze was great! Had a few chuckles from that one!
Not just classical music had these problems. How to end a song is a major headache for some song writers. In popular music, a gradual reduction of sound volume was used relentlessly because it was easier to do.
ah nothing i hate more in music than this fading out... i never understood why anyone would do that. ANY real ending is for moi better than this stupid fade out.
Pet Sounds!! I cant even count
In pop music there is no concept or necessity of ending really. It is not regarded as a necessity by the average pop listener anyway.
@@wilhelmberger9925 I expect that the prevalence of the fade-out in popular music had something to do with the fact that the endings of songs would be talked over on the radio anyway.
@@simonvaughan6017 Absolutely true of course. Its only an issue if no other song follows immediately after the fade out..
On the other side of the coin....aren't the best codas the ones which don't seem tagged on but are just a natural extension of what has gone before? Saint-Saens was very good at that, viz those wonderfully poetic codas at the ends of the first movements of the 4th and 5th piano concertos. And what about the astonishing coda of the first movement of Medtner's second concerto which so beautifully summarises all the movement's thematic material.
Wonderful to hear you play the finale of Dvorak's cello concerto. I had already picked my choice for the most inept coda, and coincidentally it's the last five minutes of Dvorak's 1st symphony. There's your rookie pilot circling the runway over and over before managing to land the plane. Dvorak certainly improved over the years.
The Eroica is the one Beethoven symphony that I never seem to get tired of listening to. Sorry, Dave, but you've lost me here.
I'll manage!
Likewise. Beethoven got it right. But I do want to hear the last chord of all to be sec, NOT drawn out. Toscanini got it exactly right and nothing sounds out of tune. He might have used the same alterations as Szell which possibly originate with Weingartner.
I think the final bit of the Strauss is supposed to be an apotheosis?
@@DavesClassicalGuide 😊
The ending of the 3rd is fine. I can't say the same for the ending of the 5th, though. I always found it hysterically comical.
Although it is often said that the banality is intentional, the coda of the finale to Shostakovich 5 can be hard to stomach - particularly when the conductor decides to slow down in a grand dramatic fashion in the last couple of bars (no rall marked in the score).
Agreed. Please don't slow down that coda. I think it plays just fine as a mockery of a happy ending at full speed if you choose to read it that way. Reminds me of one of my all-time favorite Dave Hurwitz reviews where he asked if a certain pianist/conductor even likes Tchaikovsky. I didn't fully understand Dave's objection until I heard his finale of Tchaikovsky's first. Just unbearably slow and boring.
Dave should do the BEST Codas someday. Would like to know the musical critic + percussionist preference!
Several of you have suggested that, but there's a problem in that bad codas are easy because they stick out like sore thumbs. Great codas aren't at all rare, but the problem is that in order to understand why they're great you need to hear the entire work in order to appreciate their relationship to the whole. I would probably have to do extended individual talks. There is one I have in mind that I might consider taking a swing at. Stay tuned...
@@DavesClassicalGuide Surely the coda of the last movement of Prokofiev's 5th deserves to be in some kind of category... "most original", "most exciting", or just overall "best"? :)
@@jsh31425 If you think so...
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'd mention the coda of the final movement of Bruckner's 4th!
AND sing it, too.
With all my heart, mind and soul I love EVERY SINGLE note of Walton's 1st symphony... except for the last two.
Perhaps, but there's a difference between a coda and a cadence!
Cool! Heard the BBC Symphony play the Walton 1st live here in a western "suburb" of Bangkok, but the work, despite its evidence vigor and vehemence, seemed and seems oddly unmemorable. Not sure if liking everything EXCEPT the last two notes is better or worse than not recalling it vividly at all...
Dvorak did have trouble ending sometimes, though. The coda to his "Carnaval" Overture is almost funny. It is essentially padding and goes on far too long but the piece is such fun that I don't think anyone minds.
I think that's part of the fun--it's a humorous coda so I can accept it. The Scherzo capriccioso is even crazier and for the same reason.
The most ludicrously protracted ending I've heard is the one to Berlioz's Fantasy on Shakespeare's "The Tempest" from Lélio. It sounds like a parody of Romantic bombast, but I think it's probably the genuine article.
Like Satie's
i'm reminded of Bernstein's talk on Beethoven's 5th where he presented earlier thematic and development ideas Beethoven had, then threw away. It's a sort of revelatory experience to hear how silly and clumsy some were before he came up with just the thing. Composing is more than coming up with great melodies and other sounds; there's also great deal of problem-solving involved. i wonder how many rewrites of the 3rd's coda he agonized over before he finally had to accept that's what it would be and move on already?
My nomination for worst coda is the revised ending to Prokofiev’s Symphony No. 7. There are claims that he was coerced or tempted to tack it on, but it’s encouraging to note that recordings are now available using the original ending. My preference isn’t rooted in any musicological argument, but rather in the impression that an introspective and melancholic episode shouldn’t terminate in a musical equivalent of “just kidding.”
Yes, it's like putting a smiley face on the Mona Lisa. I'm surprised that any conductors have opted for the revised ending if they didn't have to for political reasons. In his recording, Andrew Litton provided it as a supplementary track, but I never programme it on my CD player as an alternative ending.
Rostropovich claimed that Prokofiev insisted the fast ending should never be performed after his death. And I have no reason not to trust to Rostropovich who was a close friend of the composer. That ending indeed makes no sense.
Oh, man... Bruckner, yes, of course. But, Heldenleben, and the Eroica? I love both... I think the Codas of both are the best parts of each one's end. Everything after the Battle, and most of the Eroica finale, are less interesting to me.. I think the Coda of the Eroica is perfect. Joyful, exuberant, some of the most exciting music ever. You lost me on this one. However, you can make it up to us with BEST Codas... Bruckner and Beethoven will figure large in that one, too.
Dvořák 4, finale. Terrible. Agreed with original Bruckner 8, on the other hand, he composed two best codas in the universe.
I have always found the end of the Dvorak, New World unfulfilling. A major build up and then the last notes fade, where there should be a major symphonic ending. Completely agree about the Beethoven. In view of what comes before, this is overdone and overlong.
I certainly don't think the final bars of Dvorak's 9th are worthy of the rest of the symphony. A bit of a letdown, IMO...
Interesting to see both your comment and the people agreeing with it. Along with the cello concerto played in the video, I thought the New World coda was the Platonic ideal of how to end one of those big cyclical late-19th century pieces. You hear references to the motto theme from the first movement, the 1st movement coda, the chords that begin the second movement, and the famous English horn theme from that movement. It then, like the cello concerto, sort of threatens to end quietly in introspection but then does so in grandeur instead, with that final chord being held in the winds.
It depends on who's conducting it...Szell nails it.
It’s the coda of the 4th movement of Bruckner’s 6th that I am frustrated with. I always feel I want more. Maybe Bruckner should have swapped the coda for the 1st movement.
I love the ending to "Ein Heldenleben," particularly its similarity to the famous opening of "Also Sprach Zarathustra." I agree with you on the other two, though, and the last movement of the "Eroica" has always seemed to me far below the quality of the rest. I'd nominate another example of a bad ending to an otherwise great piece: George Gershwin's "An American in Paris." Gershwin himself kept nibbling away at it, making various cuts in an effort to make his ending work, and he still never got it quite right.
An interesting contrast to the coda of Ein Heldenleben (A Hero's Life) would be the nearly contemporaneous A Hero's Song by Dvorak - his final orchestral work. Although this work putatively did not have a program, it's hard to believe that the notes and melodies were random, and if in fact this was quasi-autobiographical, then based on its glorious and majestic coda it would seem that Dvorak was leaving his orchestral career on a very high and triumphant note indeed.
With the right recording, e.g. Szell/Cleveland or Kletzki/Czech Phil, everything in Beethoven 3 fits together. Of course, we need a triumphant conclusion--the "hero" of the Eroica is Beethoven. It makes perfect musical sense. The theme is HIS theme--it's been present in his oeuvre throughout his career at that point--in a contradanse, in the Creatures of Prometheus, in the piano variations Op. 35, and now the finale of the symphony that busts the genre out of the 18th century. Thus we go from the verge of despair and defeat to triumph, a dramatic parallel of Beethoven's emotional journey. I'd also venture to say it's Variation IX and not really a coda formally, though it does serve as a conclusion. I will give you the point that it's not easy to conduct, which is why we see such a range of interpretations that range from wholly dissatisfying to electric.
As for one of the best endings, though dangerous and/or at least confusing for concertgoers hearing the piece for the first time, would be that of Sibelius #5. Brings such a smile to my face every time. (And I noticed another commentor here panned it and wanted to add it to the "worst" list. Such variation in personal preferences, even among us classical fans!)
Hi David. While I agree that the revised coda to the first movement of the Bruckner is better than the original, I am such a Bruckner fan that I enjoy the original coda. If only he had made it longer! :P. I am glad you like the ending to the Dvorak cello concerto as I feel that it , like the rest of that composition, is Heavenly!!! Oh btw thanks for championing Dvorak's work. Through you I discovered his piano concerto which has become one of my very favorite compositions :) YeeeeHaaah!
I learned of Dvorak's String Quartet No. 8 many years ago through Dave, I think from one of those early Amazon reviews back before they conquered all. That is a piece that literally no one has ever heard but I think it is amazing. Similar to the Borodin second quartet, just beautiful melody after beautiful melody. I still don't quite get Dvorak's piano concerto though, despite Dave's advocacy and the brilliance of the opening theme in the first movement.
@@frankbaum5236 I'll have to check out that string quartet. I had to listen several times to the piano concerto before it revealed itself to me :). It has it's own pacing and language in my opinion and it can thwart expectations. Once I started flowing with it I was hooked. Also I find that the Richter recording with Kleiber and the youtube video from 1966 with Richter and a Czech conductor are the most compelling for me.
@@markgibson6654 I knew that Richter was a big proponent of the Dvorak piano concerto and I have heard the Richter/Kleiber recording before though don't currently have access to it. I'll need to check out the UA-cam video and give it another listen.
Surely you are joking Mr. Hurwitz!
Maybe that Coda doesn’t belong at the end of the Finale of “Eroica”, perhaps somewhere else in the Symphony, but I like it. And it sounds innovative for it’s time.
I like it too. It's fun.
Strauss's coda to the coda obviously quotes Zarathustra so I assume he's making a Nietzschean point about all-powerful nature. Maybe that nature wins in the end and therefore has to supersede the first human coda. The Dvorak coda is indeed brilliant.
Do you have a video on the best codas? I wonder what you think of Francesca da ramini's coda.
I really like the end of the original coda to the first movement of the Bruckner 8th. I just don't like it THERE. I'm not sure where it should go, but I certainly don't want it to disappear entirely.
It is a perfect coda for a fourth and final movement but less so for a first movement.
The Eroica ending reminds me of the Dudley Moore Beethoven Sonata parody. You can find it on UA-cam. Well worth hearing.
I agree that the 4th mvt of the Eroica is not in the same league as the first 3 movements, particularly thematically, but he subjects the matterial to some great development and contrapuntal exporation, which raises the interest greatly. The coda---yes, it does seem somewhat mundane, but I think the repetitions of the double chord pattern are slightly reminiscent of the opening 2 thunderclaps of movement 1, which are extraordinarily attention--grabbing, so perhaps Beethoven was trying to tie the symphony together with a variation on that reference?
I stopped at the Eroica. I love every note of it and don't want to have somebody plant thoughts in my head about why I shouldn't that I'll start listening for in the future. But I'm not the least bit offended that you think it's badly flawed.
In fact Adam Fischer's version is great, check it out, it really works.
@@Alex-ze2xt I have plenty of performances that work for me. I realize the finale isn't trying to be the same weight as the 2 opening movements (what could be?) and love it the way it is, wouldn't want a note of it changed including the coda which I think is thrilling in a good performance.
Don, you are not the only one to think that every note of the Eroica is great. I certainly have no problems with it. As for Beethoven not having perfected the art of writing a coda, you could - if you wanted to - say much the same about the Fifth, where there is one false ending after another (a bit like Haydn 90), not to mention the glorious Eighth which some argue has no proper ending at all. I think all these examples just go to prove how original Beethoven was: not one ending of any of his symphonies is carbon-copy and he knew what he was doing all right. That's the difference between a genius and us mere mortals.
@@dr.alexanderhall4916 I couldn't agree with you more.
Unhappy endings!- I wonder what Dave thinks of the ending of the Sibelius 5th? This has always bothered me in view of the grandeur of the ending of his second symphony. The melodies and themes of the 5th are among the most beautiful ever composed (in my opinion) but I was always waiting for a majestic coda instead of those 6 annoying spread out chords! This, to me is one of the most unhappy endings. Even Sibelius' original version from 1915 has a more definitive ending.
If you haven't done a video on this, one on the least effective endings of operas would be interesting
i think i find critical videos like this more interesting as all i hear is reverence for the greatest composers, i never hear my own thoughts like “i love this mahler symphony - except that bit - that significant long bit”
my personal one is beethovens 4th, not bad per-se - but the movements are perfection to me bar the last which is entirely forgettable
With Beethoven, I agree with another poster that the ending of the Harp Quartet is very weak. The ending of the F major Rasomufsky isn't so great either. Weaker still I'd say is the ending of the C major cello sonata.
Huh! He muffed the 'movsky? I actually find the F Major ending very successful.
Intentionally over-the-top, satirically bad coda writing is probably best seen in Malcolm Arnold's 'A Grand Grand Overture', I think. Played for laughs, it is in fact an effective piece, but as has been pointed out in the video and comments, doesn't seem to know how to end, and so tries multiple options. Thanks for the video David.
The Arnold is, I think, a parody of the coda of Tchaikovsky's Marche slave.
Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet has that awful "inartistic" ending. Stokowski rewrote it and I'm a huge fan of that version. I remember encountering the piece for the first time when I played it in an orchestra in high school. I was really confused by the bombastic ending at the time and after a little research, indeed discovered that there was controversy surrounding it. The bombastic ending has grown on me a tiny bit over time but it always felt really shoehorned and weak to me and to an extent still does.
I’d like to put in a bid for the “feel-good” ending that Prokofiev tacked on to his Symphony No. 7. The world-weary sigh that opens the work perfectly sets up its “death” at the end. Prokofiev allegedly affixed the everything’s-just-fine coda when his friends advised that the pessimistic ending might draw the disdain, if not ire, of the Soviet artistic police; the composer is also said to have begged his friends to excise the coda in performances after his death. Recordings - and probably live performances, I’d bet - run about 50/50 for inclusion of the coda. I’ll opt for the morbid, and more honest, ending every time.
That was interesting, thank you. Will you want to review my "Blemished Codas in Every Key"? yet to compose the rest of the selections... ;)
Eventually!
The Eroica finale is problematic for reasons besides just the coda, but the coda really is a sorry excuse.
Sets of variations as finales often don't quite live up to their task. I think Beethoven's Harp Quartet finale also misses the mark, for example. Brahms pulls it off successfully in the 4th Symphony.
Totally agree on both points (I think Brahms' codas, in general, are among the best ever written). As for the Eroica - you get, for starters, two of the greatest symphonic movements ever written - one truly heroic, the other deeply tragic. And then comes what is to me an insubstantial scherzo (a mere frivolity, actually), and finally - this hopelessly meandering finale. But I think Beethoven's real problem with this work was that of overall formal balance: he "found himself" with two musical colossi* (Movement 1 & 2), and simply couldn't maintain that extremely high level of inspiration composing the following ones (*colossi indeed: who could have foreseen the coming of these two after the second symphony - or any of his other previous works?). It's the same with Schubert's unfinished: have you ever listened to what was left of its scherzo? No wonder Schubert gave it all up!
A few mentions of Tchaikovsky no. 5 here. I’ve given some thought to how the 4th movement of Tchaik 5 might balance if it were not the coda cut, but the beginning. Starting at the timp roll would mean the big tune would roar out for the first time in the movement (and I think in a major key in the whole work?) after a build-up, instead of beginning the movement and saying “we’ve arrived already, but we’re a bit early so let’s drive round the block “.
I've never been happy with the end of the Franck symphony. It just seems to
come to an arbitary stop with a full orchestra ascending scale.
The worst dumbest performance sabotage comes with the Schubert Great C Major. That giant > on the last chord is so obviously NOT a diminuendo but a slashing accent. Anyone who thinks it's a dim. sign has no business conducting the piece. Grrr.
i completely agree that Schubert intended a dramatic accent on the final note of the "Great" C-monster [as weary Canadian orchestral musicians, especially the overworked string players, are fond of labeling that symphony of excessive-length...] Your phraseology "slashing" is absolutely appropriate... 'Schubie' himself is partially to blame, though. His handwriting is so bad that it is difficult to tell from visual cues alone what is meant; however, the context is, as you note, so obviously revelatory. IMHO, the final chord [or is it the penultimate?---> do not have the score with me] of the first movement of the "Unvarnished" symphony [b-] is actually more difficult to discern. There, both an accent and a diminuendo are acceptable alternatives. It would be informative to see what the editors of the Neue-Schubert-Ausgabe have chosen.~
About the Eroica symphony, probably it is because of the last chord. I wonder someone could explain us. Some notes are missing? It is so light as a Beethovenish slam crash sound.
Does anyone else feel that the magnificent Mahler Symphony 1's coda feels unsatisfying? I'm referring to the last two-note "dum-dum"...
I love that--it completes the gentle descending bird-call motive from the first movement. It's also one of Handel's most characteristic ending gestures.
Same here. In fact, I was gonna mention it but you beat me to it. Those two chords/notes sound silly and little effective to me. The coda from the first movement of Sibelius 5th Symphony also leaves me somewhat disappointed, but again, it's the very last notes which don't suit well.
This is same piece whose third movement is Frere Jacques variations but in minor. I think the dum-dum is great for a bit of light heartedness, not something you normally associate with Mahler.
@@Cesar_SM I don't get this at all. What else would you have preferred? More chords?
The problem with the Mahler 1 coda is the tune isn't that great. It's brilliantly orchestrated.
Dear Mr Hurwitz!
I wonder if you have made a talk about recordings of Mozart's piano quartets
K 478 and K 493 ? If not I would like to ask you to consider to make it.
Best wishes Fred.
Whether he has made a talk about these or not, the Mozart piano quartets are gems of the chamber music repertoire. Go listen stat if you don't know them.
I’m not sure about your assessment of Ein Heldenleiban.
I think Strauss prophetically hit the nail on the head about the end game of a great hero.
I think of General McArthur, a military genus who Truman thought over stepped his station.
I shall return v Old Soldiers never die, they just fade away. Strauss nailed it!
Second, also not sure about the Dvorak. as a bass trombonist in a quaint metropolitan symphony, I’ve played in the back with cellists from Lynn,& Zara, up to Yo Yo and beyond and while I get that the coda was supposed to be Dvorak’s mom’s soul ascending up to heaven, IMHO, it always sounds to me like a vaudeville playoff tag. PS, terrific trombone parts, both pieces!
The LONG coda to Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony comes out of nowhere with no preparation.
But audiences love it.
Otto Klemperer hated it and even composed his own coda - issued on an EMI CD with Bavarian Radio Orchestra live (his studio recording with the Philharmonia uses Mendelssohn's coda).
I was wondering if someone would mention that one. I have no problem with it because it's thematically nothing but a transformation of the symphony's motto theme, so it works for me.
@@DavesClassicalGuide To me, it makes the impression of actually being a movement of its own - an epilogue, if you will. And I like the ending as Mendelssohn wrote it, and I dislike Klemperer's rewrite.
@@marknewkirk4322 I agree. Klemperer’s rewrite of Mendelssohn’s triumphant coda is flat as a pancake. Impossible to imagine anyone preferring it to the original.
@@markzacek237 Anyone who wasn't Klemperer.
You beat me to it!
Say what you like about the Eroica; I love it and I love you.
The "endless" Beethoven codas aren't as "endless" as many of those of Tchaikovsky, and I love them all, certainly including the Eroica ending and that "eeking" that you emulate. I think it's brilliant, you think it's schlock. To each his own.
The Eroica finale isn't up to the rest of symphony; but a well-thought out performance can make it sound better. The best coda I've ever heard is on the old Reader's Digest set with Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic.
I think the coda is brilliant (and Dave has recommended dozens of pieces by lesser composers who cannot come close to second rate Beethoven which that coda is not), the problem is rather that the whole thing feels a bit tacked on after the slow section of the finale and the whole thing is basically "only" a brilliant "throwout" ("Kehraus" in German, which used to be the last dance to "sweep out" the audience). It is also quite short, too short to be offensive by outstaying its welcome I think
(The "tacked on"-feeling is even worse in the Egmont ouverture whose coda/triumph might be better scored and more effective overall.)
Speaking of Leibowitz codas, I always get a hoot out of the insane coda of the first movement of Schubert's Great 9th. He's already playing the movement at a ridiculous tempo and then the coda is the definition of "hanging on for dear life". A great rendition of Schubert's 9th if you happen to be in a car chase or something
Totally agree the coda of Eroica is silly; you could even call it pythonesque.
There are some MAJOR orchestration problems in Eroica’s coda. Usually out of tune in the winds. You cannot have the 1st flute, (I believe) second clarinet, second oboe in one of the last sections playing the melody against the whole orchestra.
Dave, greetings from the Penal Colonies. Your "BBBRRRUUUCCCKKKNNNEEERRRSSS" are becoming so seismic, it is making anyone living near the San Andreas Fault nervous! Great stuff !!! Best wishes, B
I actually don’t mind the original ending to the first movement of Bruckner’s 8th - I’ve been called a noisy, ungainly ball of brass myself!! That said, the revised ending does flow more logically from the preceding material and your suggestion of using the original brass as an excerpt for a film score is a shrewd one. As for suggesting Beethoven wrote a single wrong note in his life, particularly the Eroica, thems fightin’ words for a lot of purists who prostrate themselves before Saint Ludwig. I’ll sit back and watch the food fight on that notion in the comments. Trusting Master Szell in Beethoven is always a good choice, that much I will say.
I find your view of the Eroica ending fascinating not because it is wrong, but rather because I think you have a point but it simply never bothered me, -just loved the piece. I think the rest of the piece is so good that we are simply willing to give Beethoven a pass, he is only human after all. It also seems to me, as some of your commenters have pointed out, that the same criticisms could be leveled at the ending of the 5th, which at the very least seems a bit carried away. I guess it's in the 7th where he finally gets it right, an ending in perfect proportion and dramatic effect to match what came before.
agree the Bruckner 8 original coda is absolutely terrible... as you say, not just structurally, but musically.
For me the worst coda that wasn’t supposed to be terrible is of the finale of Tchaikovsky’s 5th. It should end after the climactic chord when audience members who don’t know the work applaud anyway! Also there seems to be little agreement on how to pace those last four notes. I agree with you on the Dvorak Cello Concerto and love all the musing before he wakes you up with his terrific ending. I have never understood why Ein Heldenleben is as popular as it is. Strauss should have stopped composing tone poems after Don Quixote, for me his greatest. I can understand your opinion of the Eroica coda, though only the last two notes bother me. They never seem right no matter how long or short they are. As for an intentionally bad and very funny coda, I recommend that of Ligeti’s Concert Romanesc-a real hoot!
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc Didn’t they applaud after the third movement? It was a miracle if they didn’t!
It cannot end on the chord just before the grand pause bar, if that is what you mean, as that is a chord in the wrong key (the dominant). I believe conductors have, on occasion, added a dominant 7th to the chord as a signal to listeners to avoid premature applause!
I think one other problem with that movement is that it is too short - I don't feel this finale "deserves" its apotheosis on the motto theme in the major key as there hasn't been enough struggle for it to overcome and we've heard elements of the theme too many times already in that movement. Hence the full statement sounds empty and cheerless.
A bit of fun is to remember a deliberately bad coda: Malcolm Arnold’s ending to his Grand Grand Overture. This after the vacuum cleaners have been shot.
Then there's the coda to the Finale of Beethoven's 8th....Up and down the F major triad, one empty farewell gesture after another, after another - like that loud, obnoxious, drunken guest who, while putting on his coat to leave, JUST WON'T LEAVE.... But in that case I think Beethoven is actually poking fun at composers who don't know when to END IT, ALREADY....Same thing at the end of Dvorak's CARNIVAL OVERTURE - except I doubt that Dvorak was "kidding."
There's no question that Dvorak was kidding. It's a carnival for God's sake. And Beethoven's coda is one of the funniest things he ever wrote. There's a difference between bad music and funny music, but many have a very hard time telling the difference, admittedly (and I'm not saying this to cast aspersions, believe me--it's just a general observation).
@@DavesClassicalGuide
I have to admit, I wasn't sure if I agreed with you that Dvorak was kidding. But upon digging out Szell's 1963 Cleveland recording of the CARNIVAL ("a smoker," as you'd say, and which I hadn't really listened to for a few years)...Yes he IS kidding. And Szell paradoxically reveals the humor by mercilessly and precisely throttling that coda like his worst enemy...Just as he (er, ah) "releases" the foul emanation in the 2nd movement of Haydn's 93rd as no one else does or ever will....It's practically Shakespearean in its broad humor, as in "Dost thy other mouth call me?" In fact, now I KNOW I have to listen to Szell's Beethoven cycle again !
@@markfarrington5183 Well, I'm glad that you agree, but more importantly, thank you for taking the time to listen again!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Could Beethoven possibly be poking fun at himself with the ending to his 8th, perhaps his own conclusions to his 3rd and 5th symphonies?
@@frankbaum5236 Sure. Why not?
Entertaining video, even though I completely disagree about the Eroica. I think it has a stupendous ending. 😂
I’d vote for the ending of Dvorak’s New World Symphony. The major key ending comes out of nowhere and to me has always sounded wrong.
It's that awful held-on last chord that ruins it for me. Why?
He should have included the (gasp!) Beethoven 5th, and the Schubert 9, two of the most overblown codas in the standard repertoire.
No, he should not have. They are both perfect as they stand.
How about the coda to Egmont overture. Ok magnificent creation, but it's far too over-the-top for the preceding overture...
Loved your view on Beethoven 3rd. I remember thinking that in music school.
My choice is the coda to Tchaikovsky's 5th. Now don't get me wrong - a triumphant coda is absolutely correct for the piece, but considering how much of that motto theme you already hear throughout the finale, hearing it blasted through the coda just comes across as tedious and grating, at least to me. To be fair I'm not a big fan of the finale in general, but I put up with it because the first 3 movements of the symphony are some of the best music Tchaikovsky ever wrote.
I was tempted to mention that one...and I still may.
Yes, it seems to go on and on and on. What makes it worse, some conductors just drag it out as well. Markevitch is a classic example. Has to be one of the weak spots of his overall great cycle.
The ending of Walton's 1st Symphony always has me shouting, 'It'd be great if you could finish it right HERE'. And then it stutters on. Wonderful symphony in many ways, but the close is a real botch.
So enjoyed this, many thanks. Would you consider one on ‘Masters of the coda’? I’m often stunned by how good Mozart’s are, eg at the end of the Clarinet Quintet slow movement, or the conclusion of the Adagio of the D major String Quintet K593.
Sure, I'd consider it!
What about the end of the finale of the third violin concerto - most unsatisfactory!
Agreed. The end of adagio of K593 is probably the most beautiful music Mozart set to paper...
@@ronaldbeech6587 Would have to contend that the very endings of all three of the great last "JCWT" violin concertos are very disappointing. The end of K.364 (the Sinfonia Concertante) is much preferable to those of K. 216, 218, and 219.
Funny story on that note. I always loved the coda to the concert version of Mozart's Magic Flute Overture. Then I learned it was actually appended on by Wagner.
Als ich vor 50 Jahren die Eroica zum ersten Mal hörte, habe ich ziemlich gelacht, weil ich dachte, er sei so verzweifelt wegen des nicht gelingenden Endes, dass er dann irgendeine Skizze nahm.
I'm not a big fan of the coda to Beethoven's Hammerklavier. It's a great, yet thorny sounding, double fugue finale, BUT the conclusion is not-so-great. Just seems like he all of a sudden needed to get back to the original key and just end it!
I actually like that one, the little reprisal of the fugue theme after that enormous sustained cadence is a great joke, and that movement really has to end as emphatically as it does.
The other late sonata codas are amazing, i don't think I need to mention how great Op. 110/111's codas are.
@@samuelheddle Love the codas to Opp. 110 and 111 too! But I'm still disappointed with Op. 109... :-/
@@brtherjohn I don't know, I find the ending to 109 quite beautiful with the restatement of the opening of the final movement.
Great video and interesting topic! I completely agree with your assessment of all three codas you selected. I was wondering while watching if the finale of Sibelius’ Fifth would make it into your worst three. It’s in mine between the Bruckner and the Strauss. I would be curious about your choices for best codas in a future video. I bet my favorite coda isn’t in your top 10, or top 100, or even top 1000. It’s the coda from the first movement of Rutland Boughton’s Third Symphony. I just LOVE it, and, much to my embarrassment, I cannot justify it nor even explain why I love it. Maybe I’m just a sucker for downward harp glissandi and heavy brass playing in B major?
Sibelius had a special issue--he was so good at creating momentum that the had a hard time figuring out how to stop once he got going. At the same time, some of his endings are among the most personal and characteristic in all of music. He deserves a talk all his own.
Please do; that analysis of various Sibelius codas would no doubt be highly informative...
I second that - a talk on Sibelius’ codas is definitely a worthy topic. I love his coda to his seventh symphony (one of my favorite symphonies by anyone), the coda to his cantata Vainon virsi, and the glorious coda to the first movement of his fifth symphony.
I agree that the Fifth's ending is underwhelming. It seems to work better in theory than practice. The Seventh is still an underappreciated symphony. The middle section isn't stellar, but it's bookended by two of the most sublime passages in all of music.
I think the Eroica finale, in order to work, needs to be played with absolutely no heroism, or any significant amount of control or mannerism or sanity or any sense of purpose--basically anything you would expect in a finale of a grand heroic symphony. Effectively, I think it should kinda feel like the finale to Nielsen 6. That way, instead of a disappointment, it's more of a flippant, rage-inducing subversion of expectations--purposefully unsatisfying instead of accidentally unsatisfying. Rather than a hero failing to hero, it's a hero giving up heroism and just doing cocaine and partying for the rest of his life.
Then again, this may just be me--I'm a fan of the pointless subversion of expectations.
Well done. I completely agree. At the end the symphony, Beethoven makes an ironic nose thumbing gesture in the direction of the 'hero' who inspired it. It's as though he had a bust on top of his piano all the way through but finally decides to throw it against the wall. Personally I find it thrilling.
That's interesting, the end of Eroica made it my favorite Beethoven symphony because of the horn part LOL.
@@vjekop932 The horn part is pretty epic, not gonna lie...
Nielsen 6--- now THAT is an odd duck. A certain unnamed Icelandic conductor (name not revealed to protect the guilty^^) has programmed that twice in the Greater Bangkok area, while neglecting the much-more accessible (or at least appealing) 4th and 5th. A trifle strange, that, to put it mildly...
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc For that, check out Schoenberg’s setting of Byron’s “Ode to Napoleon”, which ends with the Eb Major chords that begin the Eroica.
Two reasons why those exposed violin quadruple stops in the coda of the Eroica sound out of tune come to mind. One is that the voicing requires the players to stop a perfect fifth on adjacent strings (Eb4, Bb4), which is somewhat awkward to tune in the best of times. The other is that the first several use the open G string, but having the third of the chord on an open string means you can't lower it to make a just third. Either you have to give up on tuning the chord justly, or you have to raise the root and the fifth instead, in which case it would probably be impractical to get the rest of the orchestra to match you.
Wow, I didn't think I'd be saying this, but on hearing it for the first time here, that Bruckner original coda actually is rather bad. That one I agree with you!
How about Sibelius' 5th, last movement? those chords...
Well, it's all a question of personal taste. I love them. But I think they are pretty difficult to do well. Few conductors make them go well.
They aren't really a coda--just a closing cadence. You may not like them, but up to that point it's all going swimmingly.
@@DavesClassicalGuide , even swanningly
@@josecarmona9168 Indeed!
Interesting. I find that chord sequence, at least in (one of?)the Karajan recording (s?) to be deeply moving. But I can see how Jose Carmona would be right in saying that sequence is difficult to pull off.
Even though it’s one of my favourite pieces of music, the ending of Prokofiev’s second piano concerto was always a bit of a letdown for me.
I have two examples of terrible bad first endings , both by Liszt: The Sonata in B minor and the second Ballade , also in B minor.
What a funny and insightful talk! I like it so much that you connect wit with wisdom! But, hands down, the Bruckner is just a little bit unfair. At last, he himself altered the Coda, and it was good! The original coda is just a thing for the worshippers, not for the listeners. It would be the same with the original ending of Bartóks "Concerto for Orchestra". Besides: In my opinion, the finale of Beethoven's 5th is worse than the one of the 3rd, but that's a question of personal taste (and you mentioned it).
My personal choices include another Bruckner, the coda of the 4th movement of the 7th symphony. In my opinion, it wants to be the climax, but doesn't succeed, because it's too short and somewhat out of balance. Every time I listen to the 7th, I'm dissatisfied. I prefer by far it's neighbours, the 6th and the 8th.
In my opinion also a bad ending has "Petrushka" in the ballet version. I know, it's a dead puppet, but also dead puppets deserve a better finale than this.
Nevertheless, my worst ending is Scriabin's "Poem of ecstasy". Which chord will be the final one? And then comes the final cord, which must be final, because after being held for 12 seconds or so, no brass player could go further. (In parenthesis: Nearly the same situation you have, in pianissimo, at the end of the 1st act of Strauss' "Die Frau ohne Schatten": One chord, one chord more, one more chord, the final one now, no, one more and one more and so on. But it's such a beautiful work!)
I agree it's not really Bruckner's fault--it's a disgrace to subsequent generations of Brucknerites, who wouldn't know the good stuff from the junk if their lives depended on it. I'm not quite with you on the finale of the 7th though. It is a bit of an anticlimax after the first movement, but then, the work itself is not a "finale symphony," and I think that once we accept this fact and don't expect the finale to have the biggest climax, but rather take a lighter approach, it works just fine. That's true of the 6th as well. We forget too easily that not every post-Beethoven symphony must be a "tragedy to triumph" heroic progression.
Really, sometimes you just have to enjoy a composer for what he is, rather than what he is not. Scriabin was a cosmic looney, which is why he could never finish his transcendental symphony, Mysterium. As Wiki says, "Scriabin intended the performance to be in the foothills of the Himalayas in India, a week-long event that would be followed by the end of the world and the replacement of the human race with 'nobler beings'."
@@DavesClassicalGuide I agree that the 7th is not a finale-symphony, but that doesn't mean a symphony out of balance. I have nothing against a lighter approach, but I'm not sura that this was Bruckner's intention here. To me, the finale is breathless, more Havergal Brian than Bruckner. But that's me... Nevertheless - what an Adagio...! And what a Scherzo!
@@andreassmith7773 I try to enjoy Scriabin's "Ecstasy"... I try really hard, even with the score. But to me it's more sweat than sperm or even transcendent light. I do like some of his piano works, and the "Prometheus" is interesting enough, to listen at it more often. But the "Ecstasy" is a book with seven seals to me, I must confess.
@@edwinbaumgartner5045 I actually hear it as Bruckner's attempt at humor, but you're right: that ending is a pale reflection of that to the first movement, and for that reason it can't help but sound too small. I wonder if we'd feel differently if Bruckner had not felt the usual obligatory need to cyclically recall earlier music, and simply wrote an ending using fresh material.
I totally agree with the Eroica. I llllllooooovvvvve the Eroica as a whole, but I feel always somewhat awkward and embarrassed when I play or hear the coda. Other bad codas to very good, great and worthy pieces are - in my opinion - Tchaikovsky's Fifth when these stupid triplets in E Major start and the main theme of the Symphony returns in this shallow and empty triumphant manner. It's such a gorgeous symphony - and then this...
And another one: Beethoven's Egmont Overture. Not good either... by no means...
I like Egmont--it's a theatrical piece, after all, not in the least "abstract" the coda is clearly a separate mini-movement.
Sir Malcolm Sargent excised those 'stupid triplets' in his recording of the 5th with the LSO. The result is dramatically superior, in my view (but it's still an overlong and unremittingly noisy coda).
I use Brckner's mvt.I ccoda as my doorbell chime.
On the Beethoven third I may agree with lots of effort but only on the very last part of coda, otherwise the coda is glorious like the whole work.
I just don't get the negativity about the Eroica I think the ending is fabulous.
Good for you. I don't feel that way.
I did not mean my comment to be an attack on you. I respect your opinions and usually agree with you. I am just stating that this is a case where I do not. @@DavesClassicalGuide
@@pauldrapiewski6761 I don't feel attacked and there is no reason you need to agree with me. It just seems to me that there is no news in your initial comment. I know that others will feel differently. No big deal.
I nominate the coda of the last movement of Tchaikovsky's 3rd symphony. When composers try out different endings, they usually discard the ones that do not work. Tchaikovsky left each one and kept adding another. As a result, we get a series of ineffective endings, each one played twice in succession!
Dear Dave,
I am not saying that my suggestion is missing in this list for different reasons,
but if you ask me about an extremely unsatisfying ending, I would bring up the debussy violin sonata. I have listened to many recordings with all of my favourite musicians and every time I was feeling that it is just stopping at a random spot. That domehow hurts me in a very special way.
Oh I disagree: to me the Code of the Eroica is the greatest Coda of all time.... Beethoven knew what he was doing, and he intended it to be just as it is...
The eroica... Well, Napoleon's ending wasn't too glorious neither, was it? But I totally agree. Although I hate the coda of the 5th even more, but that's just me. Thanks, Dave...
oh i knew before playing the video that you would upset me in some way, shape or form - ha ha - sure enough you did with Ein Heldenleben which for me is a perfect piece of music from first note to the last - if I were to quibble with an ending to a Strauss tone poem it would be the end of Thus Spake Zarathrustra which always seemed to me a bit contrived
Thus Spake Zarathrustra has one of the best codas ever written (if you stop the piece after playing the first 2 minutes) :)
ASZ really has a genius ending. Please read up on the literature to understand why it's so amazing
Agree, the violin-horn duet toward the end is right up there in the desert island moments!
Thinking a little more of this, someone once told me that the Eroica is such an enormous STRUCTURE. And I agreed. It's as if every note has it's perfect place. So the coda may seem substandard when viewed in isolation, but it needs to be appreciated as part of the whole. And to me it gives the impression of the only ending possible. Is the Eroica the greatest symphony ever written? I think it is a good contender.
No, it sucks as part of the whole too.
haha....we agree to disagree Dave.
I've learned to love the typical Beethoven ending. They are hilarious, and I know Beethoven knew they were, so he took it to extremes. Brahms 1st has a Beethoven ending, albeit a short one. Dudley Moore's Beethoven parody is right on, and only slightly exaggerated.
Maybe Beethoven's Eroica is just a little bit too bloated. First movement development section, whoa, just endless. Slow movement, magnificent but too much pathos maybe. Brightness of the scherzo, brilliant contrast. The finale, actually is a masterful exercise in contrapuntal writing. But I'm not sure how else Beethoven could have ended it. Interesting talk, but I still love this symphony and I can't criticize too much, it's legendary..
I have a candidate for an unsatisfactory ending to a major work.- Tschaikovskys Manfred symphony...
You can criticize something and still love it. Indeed, its faults may be some of the most lovable bits. For example, I love the first movement development--all of it.
Coda from Villa-Lobos Guitar concerto last movement is horrible ... a kind of cadenza was running at the middle, then is suddenly cut by a guillotine tonic chord out of nothing. It is so clumsy that when I listened to it for the first time in a vinyl LP, I thought of a jump from the turntable stylus ...
Agree with the Eroica and but would add New World Symphony and Sibelius 5 as examples of great codas ruined! For me both are exceptional codas up until the final few bars which, to end the whole symphony, are a huge letdown!
Sibelius I can understand, the New World? Definitely not. It's pure poetry.