I bought a “bubba cut” trapdoor back in 1994 and installed a 36” Douglas medium taper round barrel on it and chambered her in 45-70 for my father. We shot those 55 grain 2F Goex with a .030 card wad, home made tallow soaked felt wad from old felt hats and another .030 card wad, under a 1-30 mix 405 (410 gr actual) FP flat base Brooks mold I had at the time… they were a hoot to shoot out to the 500 yard rams at the Whittington Center. I wish I had bought one of those carbines also. However… taking sacrilegious to another level… I powder coated some of those 405 Hollow base bullets, sized them to .459 and lubed them with my version of SPG and 65 grains of 2F Swiss and they are sweet on the 300 yard steel from my 45-70 Rolling block I built. Your videos are awesome and keep up the great work sir.
I have a full length 1873 rifle that really likes those loads. I bought it sometime between 1987 and 89 for $225, and it wouldn't chamber a round. A friend of mine stuck a cleaning rod with a bronze brush down the barrel from the muzzle into the chamber and chucked it in a drill. We ran it for a few seconds at low RPM, and it came out into the chamber with the top half of a copper case on it. I've never bothered looking up when the last time the military rounds had copper cases, but it's a sure thing that it hadn't been fired in 75 years or more. I have fired some of the full-power 45-70-500 military equivalent loads in it, and they are brutal. Since it likes the 45-55-405 loads, I'll stick with them!
In one of my units our armament guy thought he had a bad batch of new barrels. They did an upgrade on our M4"s, 5 of the barrels stopped chambering rounds. He put them aside, thinking their was a problem with them. Well same problem, the cartridges failed at the shoulder and left them in the barrel, next round would not chamber and the weapon jammed. Good catch on that barrel.
The thought that the hollow base bullet expanding into the rifling and sealing better can pick up 175 ft/second over the same weight traditional flat base bullet with exactly the same powder and charge weight is amazing.
Love the Trapdoor! My grandfather had one, my late cousin kept it! Modern powder coating is a polymer coating that only helps with velocity once you get to a high enough velocity to melt the plastic. The powder coating I used to use was moly disulfide, which is a lubricant even in space!
Great video. I’ve wanted one of those forever, too. They were out of my price range when they were $700, and since they have gones o far up,in price and I’m 78, now, I doubt I will ever get one. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, in part to you, I bought, finished & assembled a Kibler SMR. I could not have been happier with this this rifle. Super accurate & a joy to shoot. When I go to the range with this thing, it gathers a crowd. Fortunately, I have a bunch of other places to shoot. So, thank you for all the videos you post on You-Tube.
Thanks Jake. This one didn't suck either, in fact none of your videos ever have.Congratulations on the new Trapdoor, it looks sweet. I watched a video earlier where a guy was shooting a .45-70 contender with a 300 grain bullet and he was only getting 1250 out of it so you're doing pretty good. Carry on.
I laughed at folk back in 85', 1985 that is when they proclaimed the .45-70 was dead and obsolete. The guy had a trapdoor and was thinking about selling it and stupid me said, "Just hang on to it. 45-70 might have a resurgence and you will be sitting pretty." I should have said, your right, I'll take that old gun off your hands for a couple hundred bucks. Then you can go buy that hunting rifle you have been wanting. Wow. The ignorance of youth. Looks like you got yourself a good shooter. Cheers!
That carbine is a beauty! Those old rifles really shine with black powder. Light smokeless loads don't really satisfy or do very well. Years ago I sold off my old trapdoor for something silly like rent money. Why didn't I just sleep in my car?!
Nice find! I have same one. I use BP equivalent loads with IMR 4198. The Lee 350 grain (supposed to be 340 grain, but actually weighs out at 350) cast bullet is a great deer load. I think your brother? is right about the powder coating. I have an old dbl barrel coach gun that hates plastic shot cups. The plastic leaves a residue inside the barrel. I have read somewhere that old shotguns don't shoot ammo with plastic shotcups very well. The author recommended using cork wads instead.
You stand the ladder up, when shooting at short ranges. The 100 yard position is at the very bottom. With the ladder down, the battle sight is set for a belt buckle hold, something like 360 yards or something like that.
Don’t have an original but a H&R carbine. I spent pounds of powder trying to get a different cast bullets to fly right but when I switched to a Lyman 405g..she has given me some of my most thrilling memories. Who knew with carbine (pistol like sights on H&R) I could blow smoke rings in the quiet of the morning and punch groups at 300 yards! 😊 Just love the mechanicals of the Trapdoor! ❤
I NEED ONE OF THOSE! I really love carbines and the trapdoor Springfield is one of my favorite historical firearms. They are basically becoming impossible to get.
@@taylorharbin3948possibly, but none to my knowledge. I figured Pietta or one of those Italian outfits might but I haven't seen anything that wasn't a muzzleloader.
It’s interesting to see how modern ammo and modern loads seem to shoot so much higher in these older firearms. That tells me the old black powder was not as efficient as modern black powder. Great demo, great carbine!
What’s crazy is the trap door was a design that modified muzzleloaders into cartage rifles. It was a dirt cheep conversion for the military and now thy are crazy expensive and top tier lol.
The springfield is a great rifle. I like the sharps cavalry carbine better tho. It has a stronger action. The springfield has excellent ejection. According to the government records, the carbine load was 55 grains of powder, with a wad, and a 405 grain hollow base bullet. The infantry load was 500 grain bullet with about 68 grains of powder. I like the cavalry load much better.
Great Video Jake. Nice Carbine too. I’d love to have a carbine to go along with my full size Trapdoor. I hope to get it back out soon, but right now I’m down for the count with my back. Hit me on the 4th. Getting Old Sucks!!
@@Everythingblackpowder Thank You Man. Never had a stone before, but I’ve heard they’re bad. I’ll be calling the surgeon Monday morning, as I’ve already had 3 spinal blocks and they last about 2-3 months and then the pain comes back 10 fold. This one has been the worst. But I shall bounce back soon. Not gonna stay down. 👍
Troopers armed with Trapdoors were 'adequately' armed for sure!!! That is until the copper cases started sticking due to the fouling and needing a sturdy knife to pry them out of the chamber. Modern drawn brass is SO much more reliable....and the 45-70 SMACKS with authority! The powder coated bullets being slower might be from the cushion of the felt wad which could be lessening the obturation of the base. In my 577-450 MH ammo I use that same Lee bullet unsized with the base filled with lube on top of a lube 'cookie' between cards and they work OK. The Holy Black is such wonderful stuff!
@@Everythingblackpowder Lessons were learned that day...but sadly not by Custer or his men. Never attack a force of greatly superior numbers unless you have weapons that can offset the disparity of numbers. Custer's men were out-gunned by repeating weapons but many fell to the good old 'bow and arrow' too. Their hubris led them to believe the Indians would turn and run...but instead they turned and fought....and I have to say good for them. Custer was an ass.
A Very Lovely Rifle Jake! I did enjoy seeing you shoot that beauty! Congrats on finally getting a long time wanted rifle!I certainly would hate to be one of your targets! That Baby packs a punch! Kind Thanks to you Fellers and I’m glad you made this damn video! Nice music too! Happy July, Kind Thanks, Many Blessings and Plum Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
That slow motion was super cool. I have seen the glint off a flying bullet before and had no one believe me. I found that if the sun was behind me i could see it much easier. Super cool gun btw.
Very nice carbine , I have a winchester 1885 and 1886 (replicas miroku made) and a H&R handi rifle silenced (I'm french it's easy to buy silencers here)in .45-70 ,awesome caliber ;) all 3 work great
Powder coated bullets don't carry lube in the groves . With black powder the bullet collapses the grove , because it needs the lube to support the bullet . Powder coat will go down the barrel but the bullet is completely deformed .
I’ll be 60 in a few months, and I’ve always wanted one of those trap door guns, but I don’t think I will ever be able to afford one now. Well, I could afford one, but I would probably have to sell a couple of my favorites to do it.
Most american military rifles of Civil War & Indian wars were sighted in high from factory because military training taught soldiers to aim at brass belt buckle. Basically, you were able to hit at more ranges
I love the trap-door carbine ! (H&R for mine) the Lee HB 405 grain is my choice for sure. shoots amazing at 300+yards amazing for a shorty. have won competitions with it!! totally under-rated somehow haha! great vid! keep em commen!
Great video! That's the first time I've heard about that 405 hollow base mold. May need to pick one up. I don't have much knowledge about the carbine loading, but I do load for my Trapdoor rifle made in 1891 which has a slightly oversized bore. I get the best consistency with a 500gr bullet cast out of 40:1 lead. I use 20:1 in my other BP firearms, but with the heavy bullet and soft alloy I think it gives just enough time for the base of the bullet to bump up to fill the rifling. It also gives me a consistent 40-50fps velocity increase over harder bullets, probably due to a better sealing of the bullet in the barrel. My rife has the Buffington rear sights which were meant to be zeroed around 250ish yards and shoots about as high as yours does. Congrats on the new carbine!
Thank you very much! These bullets were 30-1 and worked pretty well. That’s what I use for my 50-70 bullets too. As for the 300 yard zero that’s nothing a taller front sight won’t fix
I was at a gun show in 1984 and there was a beautiful Trapdoor Springfield 45-70 for sale. I could not afford it, so I bought a ..... 577 Snider rifle for $200. Those were the days!
BTW great video! It seems that firearms manufactured for black powder usually perform best with black powder. Really enjoy your videos because we have the same taste in firearms.
A dearly departed friend gave me a trapdoor hunting carbine cut down from a long rifle by a gunsmith that his grandfather had made for him to hunt deer. Since it had been butchered and had no historical value, I decorated it with brass tacks to look like an Indian owned gun. I load 45-70 cases with 27 grains of #4198, corn grits filler, and the same Lee bullet as you do. I also shoot the same load in my Pedersoli RRB Buffalo heavy barrel rifle. I make my own lube for these bullets.
another great presentation , in oz all i can get is powder coated 44 lead , i personally think its abrasive , a bit like lead coated with hard lapping compound i'm not shooting excessive amounts but i'm not too keen on how clean it leaves my bore , it looks like when you use some copper lead projectiles to clean up an old bore but copper is lubracative , so i'd say powder coated is abrasive , cheers big ears
AAHHHH I have always loved the .45 government rifles and carbines, Thank You for a great vid! If anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, the 1884 Sight I think is zero at 200 yards, this may help account for Your high shots. Also, You'r indicated velocities are a bit high, an 1877 Army document states 1100 FPS min to 1150 fps max. Maybe that also has a hand in the shot placement in this video?
Acquired one a few months back. The tang site it came with are not great. No graduation marks, and by the time you put the site up, fare enough to see over the back of the rifle, it shoots about 18ins high at 50yrd.
Personally I think that the 45-70 is a great cartridge for someone just starting out in the black powder cartridge. It is very forgiving and if you take care of your brass it will last for way longer than smokeless just because you aren't working it as much. I wouldn't have thought the powder coating would have slowed it down that much. I can't remember if that model of carbine was 300 yard zero or 500 but I'm sure 11bangbang would know in a flash. As usual you guys make everything bitchin
I've wanted a trapdoor carbine for many years, and I have found them, but my wallet couldn't afford it. Hahaha I did find and buy a cut down rifle that was done very well, with a 24" barrel that I got for $400.00, but it's just not the same as an original. I personally wouldn't have altered the original, and the previous owner said that it was already altered when he purchased it. It shoots to the point of aim because of the taller front sight being a dovetail blade (looks a lot like a muzzleloader sight) brass and easy to see.
Just a heads up with powder coated projectiles. When loading them for pistols i go to a faster powder as the coating is a lot slicker so creates a lot less back pressure. I think that will cause your black powder to have more trouble burning.
The only reason that the PC rounds should be going slower is if they were larger in size. When I size them the same, I get a 20 to 30 fps increase with PC in my airguns. I haven't tried PC without lube in a black powder rifle yet, and probably won't because I want the fouling to get softened from the lube. The only other difference between the loading was the wads under the bullets, and that really shouldn't make much difference. For the airguns, the PC is a very good lube, but you really need to size them before shooting. The pressure behind them is so low that even a few thousandths big will be a problem that needs a cleaning rod and a hammer to fix. Maximum that I have is around 2300 psi "chamber" pressure in .357 or .510.
I make and use powder coated bullets but can honestly say I am not a fan boy for them. They work to control leading at high velocities somewhat and that is about the best recommendation I can give them. They are not 100 percent cure for leading no matter what you may hear. I have also experienced the same from commercial coated so it just is not my bullets. I like the carbine. interesting rifle.
Generally, powder coating is best for situations where a jacketed bullet is preferred - high pressure smokeless loads. IIRC it originally came about as a way to prevent leading in magnum smokeless pistol rounds, and it even enables loading cast bullets at pressures that will cycle an AR in .223 Remington. I'm not sure it really gives any advantage in black powder, and in fact I suspect it's kind of pointless. Especially since you need the lube to keep the fouling soft, and the only other argument for powder coating is that it prevents you from having to use messy lube on smokeless cast rounds.
Try 13 grs of Unique, I have had great luck with this same 405 gr HB bullet in a nearly exact same carbine you are shooting. Mine has had a new front sight dovetailed in it, milled out of steel with a blank blade that puts it right on target at 100 yd. Keep up the great videos.
Ah a proper test as you are back in your dungarees Jake!! Thanks that was very interesting and informative until you tested I was wondering if the powder coating would impart more of a spin as it gripped the rifling lands which would have improved accuracy.
If you haven't already done it you might want to slug the barrel. Find out what the true bore size is and order you a mold to fit. Make sure you use pure lead bullets. They will bump up and fill the bore. I have an 1884 that was in poor shape so I rebarreled it and chambered it to 40-50 Sharps bottleneck. Shoots a 300 gr RCBS bullet like a house afire. Just don't hot rod your loads and that gun will last a good long time. By the way how is the bore? You will find a shallow rifling and wide lands and grooves.
Getting close to the original .45-70 load is not easy. In the era they had thin bottom casings (not yet brass - they were made out of copper). This is why they managed to squeeze 70 grains of powder under a 405gn bullet. Thick bottom was introduced later, with the advent of smokeless powder and military rifle pressures around 60000psi. And it became standard, even in calibers like .45-70. Today if one wants to be close to the original .45-70 loads, the .45-90 provides enough case capacity. Yet reaming an antique rifle for it would be sacrilegious. The only way out of this is powder compression - Buffalo Firearms offer some powder compression plugs, working with neck expansion die bodies.
There were two loadings for the trapdoor. The 55gr load for the carbine is authentic. A common prank was to slip a new recruit the 70 gr rifle load during carbine practice.
Hey Jake! I think I have another myth for you to try out. As you propably heard it somwhere in the past "the petrolium based products shouldn't be used with BP". But i really doubt that for some reason. For example I think that a lithium grease (which a lot of us use for locks and actions of our guns) would be very good for minie balls due to its lubing effectivness and resistance to temperature. please try it out on video and show the world how stupid I am right now OR how right this theory might be. PS. love your videos, keep them coming :)
Boy I'm starting to think that all of us need to start going to another channel with all these regulations see how UA-cam fares when all of their patrons and all of their producers find another source
I have done some powder coating of bullets myself, and I had to resize them after powder coating because they got a couple thousands bigger that might be why they’re slowing down
I've noticed with my powder coated bullets that in a gun that gets jacketed ammo it seems to be able to push powder coated lead faster without leading. I have a load with the Lee 180gr powder coated for 7.62x39 pushing 1850fps. With my lever action 357 that I shoot lead out of before I shoot powder coated lead it slows them down. It's like the lead in the bore is sticky with the powder coat... If I clean it well then the velocity goes back up to what I would expect from the lead bullet.
Powder coat isn't quite a jacket but you can get some remarkable velocity with it. Supposedly there's even a load that'll cycle an AR in .223 Remington, which to my knowledge is impossible with bare lead.
EBP, 1st: NICE gun! 2nd: Fun vid 3rd: Just a thought on the Chrono. It seems that when you are a bit faster between shots is when you have dupes. Maybe if you let the smoke clear a little more it will read better? Just a thought.
It's normal for these to shoot high. The troopers would aim around the waist to hit a human target. My clone shoots the same way. Excellent video...thanks!
That looks like a beautiful piece, Jake, well done! Man, I don't know how you got that muzzle velocity. I am trying to *exactly* replicate the .45-70-500 cartridges which were used with the 1884 rifle (not carbine, which still used the 405-grain bullet, as you know). I use true Round Nosed 500-grain bullets from a Lyman mold over a card wad over 70 grains of Swiss 1.5F, and I only got an average of 1,220 fps instead of the 1,350 fps recorded by the Ordnance Dept. in period. Obviously, to cram that powder in, I had to use a compression die. I'm going to get some Swiss 2F to see if that will bump things up a bit. As for shooting high, remember that (surprisingly), the battlesight on the Buffington rear sight is zeroed for 200 yards (see the Ordnance Dept. report for 1885), not he 100 yards most other firearms, so that explains why it shoots so high at those ranges you were doing. By the way, keep your eyes open for "Historical Shooting with the Trapdoor Springfield," coming soon (like in a year or so).
I bet the 2F gets you in the ballpark. With a compressed 2f load of 65gr and the same 500gr bullet I get into the mid 1300fps range. I am at a mile elevation so that may be a factor as well.
@@jermedic Captain Stanhope Blunt's 1889 Manual for the Trapdoor gives a detailed chart showing exactly how elevation affects MV, along with temperature, air pressure, humidity, and more, and you're right, being that high has a distinct effect. Blunt's book is, by far, the most advanced ballistic study produced in America up to that point. And yes, I really think the 2F might help; I hope I don't have to go to 3F, I just don't think rifle powder was that fine in period. I also think I can add a little more tin to the lead--my bullets are actually coming out of the mold at 514 grains instead of 500, so more tin should reduce the weight, which will increase MV. I know it's geeky, but this is the kind of stuff I love--I want to replicate original performance.
@@Schlachtschule I'm right there with you. I like to geek out on this kind of stuff too and shoot things "the way they were." As much as I like my modern stuff, my old single shots, lever rifles and single action revolvers (and flintlocks) are my favorites to shoot.
Thanks Hugh. This cottonwood powder runs a solid 50 fps faster on average than the 3F Swiss we tested it against in my flintlock. Maybe running 2F instead of 1 or 1.5f is enough to make the difference. That, and my janky chronograph…
The good thing about the Garwin chrono is it finally stopped people from telling us we needed a Lab Radar.
😂
The question is will it read through the powder smoke
I bought a “bubba cut” trapdoor back in 1994 and installed a 36” Douglas medium taper round barrel on it and chambered her in 45-70 for my father. We shot those 55 grain 2F Goex with a .030 card wad, home made tallow soaked felt wad from old felt hats and another .030 card wad, under a 1-30 mix 405 (410 gr actual) FP flat base Brooks mold I had at the time… they were a hoot to shoot out to the 500 yard rams at the Whittington Center. I wish I had bought one of those carbines also. However… taking sacrilegious to another level… I powder coated some of those 405 Hollow base bullets, sized them to .459 and lubed them with my version of SPG and 65 grains of 2F Swiss and they are sweet on the 300 yard steel from my 45-70 Rolling block I built. Your videos are awesome and keep up the great work sir.
The sound difference between the two is amazing, its an auditory experience as well as a joy to watch.
I have a full length 1873 rifle that really likes those loads. I bought it sometime between 1987 and 89 for $225, and it wouldn't chamber a round. A friend of mine stuck a cleaning rod with a bronze brush down the barrel from the muzzle into the chamber and chucked it in a drill. We ran it for a few seconds at low RPM, and it came out into the chamber with the top half of a copper case on it. I've never bothered looking up when the last time the military rounds had copper cases, but it's a sure thing that it hadn't been fired in 75 years or more. I have fired some of the full-power 45-70-500 military equivalent loads in it, and they are brutal. Since it likes the 45-55-405 loads, I'll stick with them!
Wow! That’s a great story. That copper case had been in there for a long time
In one of my units our armament guy thought he had a bad batch of new barrels. They did an upgrade on our M4"s, 5 of the barrels stopped chambering rounds. He put them aside, thinking their was a problem with them. Well same problem, the cartridges failed at the shoulder and left them in the barrel, next round would not chamber and the weapon jammed. Good catch on that barrel.
The thought that the hollow base bullet expanding into the rifling and sealing better can pick up 175 ft/second over the same weight traditional flat base bullet with exactly the same powder and charge weight is amazing.
Love the Trapdoor! My grandfather had one, my late cousin kept it!
Modern powder coating is a polymer coating that only helps with velocity once you get to a high enough velocity to melt the plastic.
The powder coating I used to use was moly disulfide, which is a lubricant even in space!
Interesting
Great video. I’ve wanted one of those forever, too. They were out of my price range when they were $700, and since they have gones o far up,in price and I’m 78, now, I doubt I will ever get one. Keep up the good work!
Thank you
You can’t take it with you. Buy and enjoy and leave to your family.
Thanks, in part to you, I bought, finished & assembled a Kibler SMR. I could not have been happier with this this rifle. Super accurate & a joy to shoot. When I go to the range with this thing, it gathers a crowd. Fortunately, I have a bunch of other places to shoot. So, thank you for all the videos you post on You-Tube.
Thank you. I’m glad to hear it!
Thanks Jake. This one didn't suck either, in fact none of your videos ever have.Congratulations on the new Trapdoor, it looks sweet. I watched a video earlier where a guy was shooting a .45-70 contender with a 300 grain bullet and he was only getting 1250 out of it so you're doing pretty good. Carry on.
I laughed at folk back in 85', 1985 that is when they proclaimed the .45-70 was dead and obsolete. The guy had a trapdoor and was thinking about selling it and stupid me said, "Just hang on to it. 45-70 might have a resurgence and you will be sitting pretty." I should have said, your right, I'll take that old gun off your hands for a couple hundred bucks. Then you can go buy that hunting rifle you have been wanting. Wow. The ignorance of youth. Looks like you got yourself a good shooter. Cheers!
Thank you
They were half the price, but I had a quarter of the discretion funds.
That carbine is a beauty! Those old rifles really shine with black powder. Light smokeless loads don't really satisfy or do very well. Years ago I sold off my old trapdoor for something silly like rent money. Why didn't I just sleep in my car?!
Oh shit!
Well done indeed! Never ceases to amaze how consistent BP or even the duplex loadings are over smokeless loads alone.
I owned an Officer's Model carbine back in the late '70s. Fine gun, great for close hunting.
Nice find! I have same one. I use BP equivalent loads with IMR 4198. The Lee 350 grain (supposed to be 340 grain, but actually weighs out at 350) cast bullet is a great deer load. I think your brother? is right about the powder coating. I have an old dbl barrel coach gun that hates plastic shot cups. The plastic leaves a residue inside the barrel. I have read somewhere that old shotguns don't shoot ammo with plastic shotcups very well. The author recommended using cork wads instead.
You stand the ladder up, when shooting at short ranges. The 100 yard position is at the very bottom. With the ladder down, the battle sight is set for a belt buckle hold, something like 360 yards or something like that.
Don’t have an original but a H&R carbine. I spent pounds of powder trying to get a different cast bullets to fly right but when I switched to a Lyman 405g..she has given me some of my most thrilling memories. Who knew with carbine (pistol like sights on H&R) I could blow smoke rings in the quiet of the morning and punch groups at 300 yards! 😊 Just love the mechanicals of the Trapdoor! ❤
I’m hear those H&R’s are very nice rifles.
@@Everythingblackpowder Maybe so but an original would be way cooler! ❤️👍
I NEED ONE OF THOSE! I really love carbines and the trapdoor Springfield is one of my favorite historical firearms. They are basically becoming impossible to get.
Does nobody make a replica?
@@taylorharbin3948possibly, but none to my knowledge. I figured Pietta or one of those Italian outfits might but I haven't seen anything that wasn't a muzzleloader.
@@taylorharbin3948
Pedersoli
@@gotsloco1810pedersoli does? I could have sworn I checked there... maybe I didn't search well enough. Thanks!
Nice one, just love the old single shots.
I’ve really gotten into the antique muzzleloading propellent stuff since I’ve started watching you guys excellent content
I find that they're very informative, it has taken my slight obsession with muzzle loaders and made it more of a need to have in my life.
I love the trap door. From a simple easy design. Wish it was a tad stronger but for that I use my browning high-wall.
That's fantastic like it great show it's appreciated thank you.
It’s interesting to see how modern ammo and modern loads seem to shoot so much higher in these older firearms. That tells me the old black powder was not as efficient as modern black powder. Great demo, great carbine!
Thank you
Great video! Thank you for sharing it!
That rifle looks like a blast to shoot. I bet it’s a tack driver with the right loading.
Congratulations on finding that old carbine and thank you for sharing your experience with it.
You bet
Hope you had a wonderful 4th. Thanks for the video great job again
@@wyatesbob thank you
Thank-You..... Fantastic Rifle
Thank you
What’s crazy is the trap door was a design that modified muzzleloaders into cartage rifles. It was a dirt cheep conversion for the military and now thy are crazy expensive and top tier lol.
That was the plan, and a lot of them were made that way, but they ended up also making brand new Trapdoor rifles.
balsa and dried tobacco stalks work the same .both are a very light wood .i will send you some when my tobacco matures .
Your collection makes me so happy😊
Me too!
The springfield is a great rifle. I like the sharps cavalry carbine better tho. It has a stronger action. The springfield has excellent ejection. According to the government records, the carbine load was 55 grains of powder, with a wad, and a 405 grain hollow base bullet. The infantry load was 500 grain bullet with about 68 grains of powder. I like the cavalry load much better.
Let's go!! He's back! Good video!
I would love to see you and the cap and ball channel having a chat
Great Video Jake. Nice Carbine too. I’d love to have a carbine to go along with my full size Trapdoor. I hope to get it back out soon, but right now I’m down for the count with my back. Hit me on the 4th. Getting Old Sucks!!
Howdy Benjy! I was down for the count with a kidney stone that went south. That set me back a couple weeks. I hope your back gets better soon
@@Everythingblackpowder Thank You Man. Never had a stone before, but I’ve heard they’re bad. I’ll be calling the surgeon Monday morning, as I’ve already had 3 spinal blocks and they last about 2-3 months and then the pain comes back 10 fold. This one has been the worst. But I shall bounce back soon. Not gonna stay down. 👍
Best of luck to you.
Troopers armed with Trapdoors were 'adequately' armed for sure!!! That is until the copper cases started sticking due to the fouling and needing a sturdy knife to pry them out of the chamber. Modern drawn brass is SO much more reliable....and the 45-70 SMACKS with authority!
The powder coated bullets being slower might be from the cushion of the felt wad which could be lessening the obturation of the base. In my 577-450 MH ammo I use that same Lee bullet unsized with the base filled with lube on top of a lube 'cookie' between cards and they work OK. The Holy Black is such wonderful stuff!
I would love to get a Martini-henri but they have gotten expensive too!
Custer’s troops at that Little Big Horn might disagree with you on that. The Indians had Henry’s,66 yellow boys,and I think Winchesters.
Unless Custer and his men were armed with m60 machine guns I think the battle would have turned out the same way
@@Everythingblackpowder Lessons were learned that day...but sadly not by Custer or his men. Never attack a force of greatly superior numbers unless you have weapons that can offset the disparity of numbers. Custer's men were out-gunned by repeating weapons but many fell to the good old 'bow and arrow' too. Their hubris led them to believe the Indians would turn and run...but instead they turned and fought....and I have to say good for them. Custer was an ass.
Bad ass rifle. On my wish list for sure 👍
A Very Lovely Rifle Jake! I did enjoy seeing you shoot that beauty! Congrats on finally getting a long time wanted rifle!I certainly would hate to be one of your targets! That Baby packs a punch! Kind Thanks to you Fellers and I’m glad you made this damn video! Nice music too! Happy July, Kind Thanks, Many Blessings and Plum Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
@@daveyjoweaver6282 thank you very much. Same to you
Thank you !
Great video as always, man!
Thank you
That slow motion was super cool. I have seen the glint off a flying bullet before and had no one believe me. I found that if the sun was behind me i could see it much easier. Super cool gun btw.
Great as always and as always please give a tutorial on your post shoot cleaning process 🙏
I just picked up an 1884 infantry rifle two weeks ago. Going to be making some of those Lee bullets today. Interesting timing..
Very nice carbine , I have a winchester 1885 and 1886 (replicas miroku made) and a H&R handi rifle silenced (I'm french it's easy to buy silencers here)in .45-70 ,awesome caliber ;)
all 3 work great
Powder coated bullets don't carry lube in the groves . With black powder the bullet collapses the grove , because it needs the lube to support the bullet . Powder coat will go down the barrel but the bullet is completely deformed .
I’ll be 60 in a few months, and I’ve always wanted one of those trap door guns, but I don’t think I will ever be able to afford one now. Well, I could afford one, but I would probably have to sell a couple of my favorites to do it.
Another great video thanks for sharing
Thank you
Thank you gentlemen for sharing this fine video with us six stars
Thank you
Most american military rifles of Civil War & Indian wars were sighted in high from factory because military training taught soldiers to aim at brass belt buckle. Basically, you were able to hit at more ranges
Yep
That trapdoor is a beauty jake.
Thanks snapper
Glad yours has a nice trigger. Ive got a 73 that feels more like an artillery piece than a rifle. Mine also shoots like 2 ft high as well.
Thats a cool rifle thinking i need one of those trap door carbines someday
I love the trap-door carbine ! (H&R for mine) the Lee HB 405 grain is my choice for sure. shoots amazing at 300+yards amazing for a shorty. have won competitions with it!! totally under-rated somehow haha! great vid! keep em commen!
@@Dusty_Tucker those H&Rs are nice guns
Great video! That's the first time I've heard about that 405 hollow base mold. May need to pick one up. I don't have much knowledge about the carbine loading, but I do load for my Trapdoor rifle made in 1891 which has a slightly oversized bore. I get the best consistency with a 500gr bullet cast out of 40:1 lead. I use 20:1 in my other BP firearms, but with the heavy bullet and soft alloy I think it gives just enough time for the base of the bullet to bump up to fill the rifling. It also gives me a consistent 40-50fps velocity increase over harder bullets, probably due to a better sealing of the bullet in the barrel. My rife has the Buffington rear sights which were meant to be zeroed around 250ish yards and shoots about as high as yours does. Congrats on the new carbine!
Thank you very much! These bullets were 30-1 and worked pretty well. That’s what I use for my 50-70 bullets too. As for the 300 yard zero that’s nothing a taller front sight won’t fix
Nice job guys!
Thank you
I was at a gun show in 1984 and there was a beautiful Trapdoor Springfield 45-70 for sale. I could not afford it, so I bought a ..... 577 Snider rifle for $200. Those were the days!
Well at least you bought a Snider
I've got the Pedesoli trapdoor officer replica.
With 2F and that Lee 405 lead hb bullet, no wads, i got 5 shot cloverleaf groups at 50m.
Excellent
beautiful gun
BTW great video! It seems that firearms manufactured for black powder usually perform best with black powder. Really enjoy your videos because we have the same taste in firearms.
Thank you. I agree
A dearly departed friend gave me a trapdoor hunting carbine cut down from a long rifle by a gunsmith that his grandfather had made for him to hunt deer. Since it had been butchered and had no historical value, I decorated it with brass tacks to look like an Indian owned gun. I load 45-70 cases with 27 grains of #4198, corn grits filler, and the same Lee bullet as you do. I also shoot the same load in my Pedersoli RRB Buffalo heavy barrel rifle. I make my own lube for these bullets.
Indeed. Tack work on altered trapdoors is a cool look. Did same to a used Uberti '66 Win I picked up. gets plenty of Ohh-Ahhs at the range.
Great video.
Thanks!
Looking at acquiring a trapdoor carbine. Already have an 1884 rifle. Good video, as usual.
Thank you
another great presentation , in oz all i can get is powder coated 44 lead , i personally think its abrasive , a bit like lead coated with hard lapping compound i'm not shooting excessive amounts but i'm not too keen on how clean it leaves my bore , it looks like when you use some copper lead projectiles to clean up an old bore but copper is lubracative , so i'd say powder coated is abrasive , cheers big ears
Thank you
My uncle has a trapdoor rifle, I believe he used it when he did 7th Calvary reenactments/parades I might have to ask him about it
AAHHHH I have always loved the .45 government rifles and carbines, Thank You for a great vid!
If anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, the 1884 Sight I think is zero at 200 yards, this may help account for Your high shots. Also, You'r indicated velocities are a bit high, an 1877 Army document states 1100 FPS min to 1150 fps max. Maybe that also has a hand in the shot placement in this video?
Acquired one a few months back. The tang site it came with are not great. No graduation marks, and by the time you put the site up, fare enough to see over the back of the rifle, it shoots about 18ins high at 50yrd.
Personally I think that the 45-70 is a great cartridge for someone just starting out in the black powder cartridge. It is very forgiving and if you take care of your brass it will last for way longer than smokeless just because you aren't working it as much. I wouldn't have thought the powder coating would have slowed it down that much. I can't remember if that model of carbine was 300 yard zero or 500 but I'm sure 11bangbang would know in a flash. As usual you guys make everything bitchin
Thank you. It’s 300 yard
OMG! Somebody is using an 1884 assault rifle.....just kidding, awesome video.
😂
My favorite cowboy Gun.☝️ Big Love From Mt Rush Virginia Jesus Saves.🔥
I've wanted a trapdoor carbine for many years, and I have found them, but my wallet couldn't afford it. Hahaha
I did find and buy a cut down rifle that was done very well, with a 24" barrel that I got for $400.00, but it's just not the same as an original.
I personally wouldn't have altered the original, and the previous owner said that it was already altered when he purchased it.
It shoots to the point of aim because of the taller front sight being a dovetail blade (looks a lot like a muzzleloader sight) brass and easy to see.
Just a heads up with powder coated projectiles. When loading them for pistols i go to a faster powder as the coating is a lot slicker so creates a lot less back pressure. I think that will cause your black powder to have more trouble burning.
Great Show, as usual!
Thank you for mentioning my name in the video. Lol!
lol
The only reason that the PC rounds should be going slower is if they were larger in size. When I size them the same, I get a 20 to 30 fps increase with PC in my airguns. I haven't tried PC without lube in a black powder rifle yet, and probably won't because I want the fouling to get softened from the lube. The only other difference between the loading was the wads under the bullets, and that really shouldn't make much difference.
For the airguns, the PC is a very good lube, but you really need to size them before shooting. The pressure behind them is so low that even a few thousandths big will be a problem that needs a cleaning rod and a hammer to fix. Maximum that I have is around 2300 psi "chamber" pressure in .357 or .510.
Don't play with BP cartridges much but it's a good video. Thank you.
Still not ready to make my own damned video yet.
I make and use powder coated bullets but can honestly say I am not a fan boy for them. They work to control leading at high velocities somewhat and that is about the best recommendation I can give them. They are not 100 percent cure for leading no matter what you may hear. I have also experienced the same from commercial coated so it just is not my bullets.
I like the carbine. interesting rifle.
Interesting, thank you
Generally, powder coating is best for situations where a jacketed bullet is preferred - high pressure smokeless loads. IIRC it originally came about as a way to prevent leading in magnum smokeless pistol rounds, and it even enables loading cast bullets at pressures that will cycle an AR in .223 Remington.
I'm not sure it really gives any advantage in black powder, and in fact I suspect it's kind of pointless. Especially since you need the lube to keep the fouling soft, and the only other argument for powder coating is that it prevents you from having to use messy lube on smokeless cast rounds.
That is a big round going down range......Thanks Guy's.....
Old nasty Shoe🇺🇸
Thank you
Good video
Try 13 grs of Unique, I have had great luck with this same 405 gr HB bullet in a nearly exact same carbine you are shooting. Mine has had a new front sight dovetailed in it, milled out of steel with a blank blade that puts it right on target at 100 yd. Keep up the great videos.
Excellent. Thank you
The powder coated bullet is "slicker" less pressure causes lower velocity...
Very nice 👍
Thank you 👍
Always worthy of a like and a comment for the Algoreythmn
Thank you
Ah a proper test as you are back in your dungarees Jake!! Thanks that was very interesting and informative until you tested I was wondering if the powder coating would impart more of a spin as it gripped the rifling lands which would have improved accuracy.
We will do more testing with them
If you haven't already done it you might want to slug the barrel. Find out what the true bore size is and order you a mold to fit. Make sure you use pure lead bullets. They will bump up and fill the bore. I have an 1884 that was in poor shape so I rebarreled it and chambered it to 40-50 Sharps bottleneck. Shoots a 300 gr RCBS bullet like a house afire. Just don't hot rod your loads and that gun will last a good long time. By the way how is the bore? You will find a shallow rifling and wide lands and grooves.
The bore looks decent. The hollow base lee bullets come out at .460 and that how I ran them. I was using 30-1 lead.
Thanks!
Thank you very much!
If you want powder coating to reduce leading, but want a traditional look- Eastwood Full Gloss Clear applies very easily…
@@JeffinTD I’ll look into that. Thank you
Merci
Oooooohhhaaaaa! Where did you find that beautiful piece of shooting iron!??🤩
Please try cottontail fluff charcoal in the future. It’s a great fire starter.
Getting close to the original .45-70 load is not easy. In the era they had thin bottom casings (not yet brass - they were made out of copper). This is why they managed to squeeze 70 grains of powder under a 405gn bullet.
Thick bottom was introduced later, with the advent of smokeless powder and military rifle pressures around 60000psi. And it became standard, even in calibers like .45-70.
Today if one wants to be close to the original .45-70 loads, the .45-90 provides enough case capacity. Yet reaming an antique rifle for it would be sacrilegious.
The only way out of this is powder compression - Buffalo Firearms offer some powder compression plugs, working with neck expansion die bodies.
There were two loadings for the trapdoor. The 55gr load for the carbine is authentic. A common prank was to slip a new recruit the 70 gr rifle load during carbine practice.
love it dam sahme they cost so friggin much
Hey Jake! I think I have another myth for you to try out. As you propably heard it somwhere in the past "the petrolium based products shouldn't be used with BP". But i really doubt that for some reason. For example I think that a lithium grease (which a lot of us use for locks and actions of our guns) would be very good for minie balls due to its lubing effectivness and resistance to temperature. please try it out on video and show the world how stupid I am right now OR how right this theory might be. PS. love your videos, keep them coming :)
Yeah, I’ve never gone with that theory either. We will give it a try
Boy I'm starting to think that all of us need to start going to another channel with all these regulations see how UA-cam fares when all of their patrons and all of their producers find another source
Sweet. I wonder how Cottondale would do with 48hr mill.
I have done some powder coating of bullets myself, and I had to resize them after powder coating because they got a couple thousands bigger that might be why they’re slowing down
Interesting
45-70 supposed to support 70gn charge. Shooting high happens when bullets are moving too slow due in theory to dwell time.
I've noticed with my powder coated bullets that in a gun that gets jacketed ammo it seems to be able to push powder coated lead faster without leading. I have a load with the Lee 180gr powder coated for 7.62x39 pushing 1850fps.
With my lever action 357 that I shoot lead out of before I shoot powder coated lead it slows them down. It's like the lead in the bore is sticky with the powder coat... If I clean it well then the velocity goes back up to what I would expect from the lead bullet.
Powder coat isn't quite a jacket but you can get some remarkable velocity with it. Supposedly there's even a load that'll cycle an AR in .223 Remington, which to my knowledge is impossible with bare lead.
EBP, 1st: NICE gun! 2nd: Fun vid 3rd: Just a thought on the Chrono. It seems that when you are a bit faster between shots is when you have dupes. Maybe if you let the smoke clear a little more it will read better? Just a thought.
It’s very possible
It's normal for these to shoot high. The troopers would aim around the waist to hit a human target. My clone shoots the same way. Excellent video...thanks!
Nothing a taller front sight can’t fix
@@Everythingblackpowder Very true...about 1/4" taller
That looks like a beautiful piece, Jake, well done! Man, I don't know how you got that muzzle velocity. I am trying to *exactly* replicate the .45-70-500 cartridges which were used with the 1884 rifle (not carbine, which still used the 405-grain bullet, as you know). I use true Round Nosed 500-grain bullets from a Lyman mold over a card wad over 70 grains of Swiss 1.5F, and I only got an average of 1,220 fps instead of the 1,350 fps recorded by the Ordnance Dept. in period. Obviously, to cram that powder in, I had to use a compression die. I'm going to get some Swiss 2F to see if that will bump things up a bit.
As for shooting high, remember that (surprisingly), the battlesight on the Buffington rear sight is zeroed for 200 yards (see the Ordnance Dept. report for 1885), not he 100 yards most other firearms, so that explains why it shoots so high at those ranges you were doing. By the way, keep your eyes open for "Historical Shooting with the Trapdoor Springfield," coming soon (like in a year or so).
I bet the 2F gets you in the ballpark. With a compressed 2f load of 65gr and the same 500gr bullet I get into the mid 1300fps range. I am at a mile elevation so that may be a factor as well.
@@jermedic Captain Stanhope Blunt's 1889 Manual for the Trapdoor gives a detailed chart showing exactly how elevation affects MV, along with temperature, air pressure, humidity, and more, and you're right, being that high has a distinct effect. Blunt's book is, by far, the most advanced ballistic study produced in America up to that point. And yes, I really think the 2F might help; I hope I don't have to go to 3F, I just don't think rifle powder was that fine in period. I also think I can add a little more tin to the lead--my bullets are actually coming out of the mold at 514 grains instead of 500, so more tin should reduce the weight, which will increase MV. I know it's geeky, but this is the kind of stuff I love--I want to replicate original performance.
@@Schlachtschule I'm right there with you. I like to geek out on this kind of stuff too and shoot things "the way they were." As much as I like my modern stuff, my old single shots, lever rifles and single action revolvers (and flintlocks) are my favorites to shoot.
Thanks Hugh. This cottonwood powder runs a solid 50 fps faster on average than the 3F Swiss we tested it against in my flintlock. Maybe running 2F instead of 1 or 1.5f is enough to make the difference. That, and my janky chronograph…
@@Everythingblackpowder I have the same Chrono. A few months ago I did a shoot and it rated my .45 Colts between 300 fps and 3,000 fps. Touchy.