Initial I would have thought the double ephemerate from rebound wouldn't work but now I realize that the rebound triggers need to individually resolve, and since rebound doesn't have a target it won't fizzle. Thanks for this eye opener! I'd love to also have an excellent explanation similar to this with regards to the interactions of Chaos Warp and a Commander. While I believe I understand it at this point, I would love a detailed walkthrough similar to how you do with your videos. Thanks!
Great video! At the very beginning of the problem statement, you say: "Amy casts Ephemerate targeting her Grief, ***and after that resolves***, she plays another Ephemerate." The timing here is crucial, and I think mentioning this would have made the difference to Teleportation Circle even clearer: Amy can *not* simply cast the first Ephemerate and immediately cast the second while the first one is still on the stack. If she did that, the first one (which resolves last) would fizzle. But with the original problem, it's not the Ephemerate itself that's on the stack twice, it's just the Rebound trigger - casting both Ephemerates comes later.
yeah. because Rebound is a triggered ability that doesn't target anything yet, it can sit in the stack. Only after it gets to resolve, you finally cast ephemerate and choose targets for it.
This comes up often in Pauper because there are Flicker-engine decks that use Rebound to flicker a creature that can return Ephemerate to your hand on ETB which makes use of another clever interaction, I think you had that one in an Eternal Witness vs Elesh Norn video.
Oh man, now the evil designer that lives in my head is trying to figure out how to template Teleportation Circle so that it would secretly work like a rebound trigger and let you double it up like that. “At the beginning of your end step, you may pay {0}. When you do, exile up to one target …”
You don't need to work that hard. Just remove the word "target" so that the choice of what to blink is made on resolution. "you may exile an artifact or creature you control, then return..."
Are instances of Me, the Immortal considered different entities when changing zones, since they maintain their counters? I imagine the way it's interpreted is for each entrance to be a new "Me" that applies it's counters to itself when it arrives but I'm still very new to learning the game. Is there an element of continuity from it keeping the counters as it moves to graveyard/exile which may allow this teleport circle interaction to work?
yes. "Me" is a different object every time it re-enters, but the physical card itself keeps the counters on it. you could say it enters the battlefield with counters equal to the amount and type of counters the card used to represent the previous "Me" had.
You said she got to Grief twice the previous turn, but it was actually three times (original grief + 2 times ephemerated). Doesn't change the ruling though, but adds insult to injury.
I don't remember him saying she played Grief that turn, so it's possible she played Grief the turn before she double Ephemerated. Could've hard-cast it, could've had another way of avoiding the Evoke sacrifice (not like Orzhov has a shortage of ways to scam creatures out). But like you said, not important to the ruling.
@@jinxed7915 ah. Reddit formatting messed me up. I only saw Amalia and Nadu. Grief and Sorin should be on separate lines but end up on the same line instead.
Question for you Judge Dave: after the game in question is over, Nick calls upon the dark lords and has Amy dragged down to Hell for her sins. What is the appropriate infraction (if any), fix, and penalty?
I have a question about an interaction that came up in a game I was in recently. Suppose Amy casts a Swords to Plowshares targeting Brian's 2/2 grizzly bear. In response, Brian casts a Meddle, changing the target to one of Amy's creatures. Amy responds to Meddle with a Misdirection, attempting to change Meddle's new creature being targeted back to the original. Which player's creature gets exiled? My thought is that Amy's creature gets exiled because Misdirection cannot change which spell Meddle is targeting since Misdirection is not targeting a creature, and Meddle does not target the creature itself but rather the spell on the stack that targets a creature. Similarly, Misdirection targeting the Swords to Plowshares and changing the target to the original spell to the 2/2 grizzly bear would then be overwritten as the stack resolves because Meddle would resolve next and change the creature being targeted by the Swords to Plowshares. Either way, I feel as though the Misdirection wouldn't do anything. Any help or clarification would be appreciated.
I think Misdirection could change Meddle's target to the Misdirection, causing it to fizzle. Meddle can target any spell, it just doesn't do anything unless that spell targets a single creature. And either way Misdirection would have left the stack by the time Meddle would resolve. Another option would be to let Meddle resolve, then cast Misdirection targeting the Swords to Plowshares, which has had its target changed, to change the target back to the Grizzly Bears.
TLDR: Swords to Plowshares will exile the Grizzly Bear. One very important note for both of these spells: As you said, they do not target the creature, only the spell. This means that, while you can declare your intent of where you want to redirect the spell, you officially choose where to send it on resolution. So, as you described the situation, Amy cannot change which creature Meddle will redirect towards, as that creature hasn't actually been determined yet. Meddle can only target a spell on the stack, so by attempting to change the target to a creature, Amy took an illegal action. I bring this up, because the proper way to resolve this is to rollback the game state to immediately before the illegal action was taken (casting Misdirection with an illegal target). For educations sake, we will assume Amy then attempts to cast Misdirection again. To do this, we need to read Meddle carefully. Because it says "If target spell has a single target and that target is a creature", the targeting restriction is simply "target spell", and then it checks the other criteria on resolution, compared to Misdirection's "target spell with a single target." The important distinction is that Meddle does not need to target a spell that targets a single creature, it can target any spell. And, by looking at official rulings on Misdirection, we see that it says that "a spell on the stack can be redirected to any other spell on the stack, including this one." Bolt Bend's rulings states even more explicitly that "you must change the target if possible." And by reading that Misdirection ruling, you likely already see where this is going. According to CR 115.5, a spell on the stack cannot target itself. So, because the target must be changed if possible, and Meddle cannot target itself, Misdirection is the only legal target for redirecting Meddle. Meddle will then fizzle, as the target no longer exists when it resolves, and the Swords to Plowshares is left unaffected. Now, as for why Misdirection is allowed to redirect to itself: According to 608.2n, the very last thing you do when resolving a spell is remove it from the stack. This means that, while that spell is resolving, it is still a spell on the stack, making it a legal target for Meddle. Spells such as Misdirection choose targets while the spell is resolving, so they can always redirect spells to themselves, so long as they are a legal target for that spell. They are then removed from the stack, causing the redirected spell to fizzle.
@@alicetheaxolotl Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you explaining that Meddle can target any spell but will have no effect unless that spell targets a single creature. That is where my confusion stemmed from.
I don't understand the difference between the two scenarios. When both Ephemerates go onto the stack at the same time, doesn't Amy have to choose Grief as the target for both, too?
@@Ragnasorcerer I had to rewatch the video, but it makes sense now. Thanks! I thought ephemerate hit the stack twice, I didn't realize that rebound hits the stack first, which requires no target.
@@asdfghjkl2261 It's like each rebound trigger is a gift box. 🎁 The spell doesn't hit the stack until after the rebound trigger resolves and we unwrap our present.
@@asdfghjkl2261it's not so bad if you read the reminder text for Rebound as shown on Ephemerate. There's an upkeep trigger that's separate from an actual cast, it says right there.
I feel like the rebound scenario requires an extra "step" in that you need to maintain priority and control over the stack. I happen to have a blink deck on mtgo and I swear I've ran into that rare instance of having 2 or more rebound effects and just 1 target and managed to click too fast and mess the whole thing up!
You don't need to maintain priority for this to work (Indeed, you'd need to pass priority before anything can resolve). Both triggers go onto the stack at upkeep and then wait their turn to resolve
The circle of teleportation one is correct, but why would Ephemerate not work the same way?? It should be at the start of your turn the two Ephemerate triggers go on the stack. You have to choose your target with them as you put them on the stack. The first Ephemerate trigger resolves flickering the grief. The second Ephemerate trigger resolves and should have no target. Why would you get to target on resolution?
The rebound triggers get put onto the stack not the ephemerate spells. As each rebound trigger resolves it allows you to cast the spell which is when you would choose a target
Amy targets Grief with Ephemerate. Nick calls the judge cause Wizards banned Grief just a few hours ago
Initial I would have thought the double ephemerate from rebound wouldn't work but now I realize that the rebound triggers need to individually resolve, and since rebound doesn't have a target it won't fizzle. Thanks for this eye opener!
I'd love to also have an excellent explanation similar to this with regards to the interactions of Chaos Warp and a Commander. While I believe I understand it at this point, I would love a detailed walkthrough similar to how you do with your videos. Thanks!
That's what I originally thought too. I thought you cast all rebound spells at the "same time"
@@WangerZ3291 Same, when I first started playing. inb4 Yugioh chain must finish resolving. But MtG stack do be different.
I'm so thankful that this is a Judge Dave ruling that I'll never have to worry about in Modern ever again.
Amy targets her grief with ephemerate. Amy is a bad person
The game checks for state-based actions and Amy feels Shame.
Amy double Ephemerated a Grief. Then WotC had to step in.
Amy won the game and claims justification because WotC printed and allowed this to happen by inaction... Her opponent quits playing Magic.
Boy was I wrong, and that's why I check the channel out.
Great video!
At the very beginning of the problem statement, you say: "Amy casts Ephemerate targeting her Grief, ***and after that resolves***, she plays another Ephemerate."
The timing here is crucial, and I think mentioning this would have made the difference to Teleportation Circle even clearer: Amy can *not* simply cast the first Ephemerate and immediately cast the second while the first one is still on the stack. If she did that, the first one (which resolves last) would fizzle.
But with the original problem, it's not the Ephemerate itself that's on the stack twice, it's just the Rebound trigger - casting both Ephemerates comes later.
yeah. because Rebound is a triggered ability that doesn't target anything yet, it can sit in the stack. Only after it gets to resolve, you finally cast ephemerate and choose targets for it.
This comes up often in Pauper because there are Flicker-engine decks that use Rebound to flicker a creature that can return Ephemerate to your hand on ETB which makes use of another clever interaction, I think you had that one in an Eternal Witness vs Elesh Norn video.
y'all are playing pauper wrong if y'all are playing with Griefs
Darn, I got it wrong. But Woohoo! I learned something new!
wow thank you, i never realised that rebound had it's own "on the stack trigger"
Relevant knowledge to know for learning how to play pauper familiars. Thank you.
Oh man, now the evil designer that lives in my head is trying to figure out how to template Teleportation Circle so that it would secretly work like a rebound trigger and let you double it up like that.
“At the beginning of your end step, you may pay {0}. When you do, exile up to one target …”
You don't need to work that hard. Just remove the word "target" so that the choice of what to blink is made on resolution. "you may exile an artifact or creature you control, then return..."
@@JudgingFtW But then it won't set off my Nadu triggers! How am I supposed to break Nadu now?
Seems familiar😂😂 very good video!
Funny that this contains Grief as Wizards just banned it in Modern and Legacy today.
And in the time since this video was posted, grief has been banned in modern and legacy
Good grief!
I am now filled with infinite regret that I didn't think of a way to work this pun into the episode.
Are instances of Me, the Immortal considered different entities when changing zones, since they maintain their counters? I imagine the way it's interpreted is for each entrance to be a new "Me" that applies it's counters to itself when it arrives but I'm still very new to learning the game. Is there an element of continuity from it keeping the counters as it moves to graveyard/exile which may allow this teleport circle interaction to work?
yes. "Me" is a different object every time it re-enters, but the physical card itself keeps the counters on it. you could say it enters the battlefield with counters equal to the amount and type of counters the card used to represent the previous "Me" had.
I expected the double ephemerate to work like double teleportation circle tbh
You said she got to Grief twice the previous turn, but it was actually three times (original grief + 2 times ephemerated). Doesn't change the ruling though, but adds insult to injury.
I don't remember him saying she played Grief that turn, so it's possible she played Grief the turn before she double Ephemerated. Could've hard-cast it, could've had another way of avoiding the Evoke sacrifice (not like Orzhov has a shortage of ways to scam creatures out). But like you said, not important to the ruling.
BnR foreshadowing? I think so!
@@CSDragon
> grief isn't banned
Uuuuuuh is that your final answer?
@@jinxed7915 ah. Reddit formatting messed me up. I only saw Amalia and Nadu. Grief and Sorin should be on separate lines but end up on the same line instead.
I got this one wrong!
Question for you Judge Dave: after the game in question is over, Nick calls upon the dark lords and has Amy dragged down to Hell for her sins. What is the appropriate infraction (if any), fix, and penalty?
It’s a good thing grief got banned
I have a question about an interaction that came up in a game I was in recently.
Suppose Amy casts a Swords to Plowshares targeting Brian's 2/2 grizzly bear. In response, Brian casts a Meddle, changing the target to one of Amy's creatures. Amy responds to Meddle with a Misdirection, attempting to change Meddle's new creature being targeted back to the original. Which player's creature gets exiled?
My thought is that Amy's creature gets exiled because Misdirection cannot change which spell Meddle is targeting since Misdirection is not targeting a creature, and Meddle does not target the creature itself but rather the spell on the stack that targets a creature. Similarly, Misdirection targeting the Swords to Plowshares and changing the target to the original spell to the 2/2 grizzly bear would then be overwritten as the stack resolves because Meddle would resolve next and change the creature being targeted by the Swords to Plowshares. Either way, I feel as though the Misdirection wouldn't do anything. Any help or clarification would be appreciated.
I think Misdirection could change Meddle's target to the Misdirection, causing it to fizzle. Meddle can target any spell, it just doesn't do anything unless that spell targets a single creature. And either way Misdirection would have left the stack by the time Meddle would resolve.
Another option would be to let Meddle resolve, then cast Misdirection targeting the Swords to Plowshares, which has had its target changed, to change the target back to the Grizzly Bears.
TLDR: Swords to Plowshares will exile the Grizzly Bear.
One very important note for both of these spells: As you said, they do not target the creature, only the spell. This means that, while you can declare your intent of where you want to redirect the spell, you officially choose where to send it on resolution.
So, as you described the situation, Amy cannot change which creature Meddle will redirect towards, as that creature hasn't actually been determined yet. Meddle can only target a spell on the stack, so by attempting to change the target to a creature, Amy took an illegal action. I bring this up, because the proper way to resolve this is to rollback the game state to immediately before the illegal action was taken (casting Misdirection with an illegal target). For educations sake, we will assume Amy then attempts to cast Misdirection again.
To do this, we need to read Meddle carefully. Because it says "If target spell has a single target and that target is a creature", the targeting restriction is simply "target spell", and then it checks the other criteria on resolution, compared to Misdirection's "target spell with a single target." The important distinction is that Meddle does not need to target a spell that targets a single creature, it can target any spell. And, by looking at official rulings on Misdirection, we see that it says that "a spell on the stack can be redirected to any other spell on the stack, including this one." Bolt Bend's rulings states even more explicitly that "you must change the target if possible." And by reading that Misdirection ruling, you likely already see where this is going.
According to CR 115.5, a spell on the stack cannot target itself. So, because the target must be changed if possible, and Meddle cannot target itself, Misdirection is the only legal target for redirecting Meddle. Meddle will then fizzle, as the target no longer exists when it resolves, and the Swords to Plowshares is left unaffected.
Now, as for why Misdirection is allowed to redirect to itself: According to 608.2n, the very last thing you do when resolving a spell is remove it from the stack. This means that, while that spell is resolving, it is still a spell on the stack, making it a legal target for Meddle. Spells such as Misdirection choose targets while the spell is resolving, so they can always redirect spells to themselves, so long as they are a legal target for that spell. They are then removed from the stack, causing the redirected spell to fizzle.
@@alicetheaxolotl Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you explaining that Meddle can target any spell but will have no effect unless that spell targets a single creature. That is where my confusion stemmed from.
I don't understand the difference between the two scenarios. When both Ephemerates go onto the stack at the same time, doesn't Amy have to choose Grief as the target for both, too?
The ephemerates don't go to the stack. The rebound trigger goes. The ephemerates go to the stack at different times, when each rebound resolves
@@Ragnasorcerer I had to rewatch the video, but it makes sense now. Thanks! I thought ephemerate hit the stack twice, I didn't realize that rebound hits the stack first, which requires no target.
@@Ragnasorcerer thank you, i was also struggling to get it. that's incredibly unintuitive.
@@asdfghjkl2261 It's like each rebound trigger is a gift box. 🎁 The spell doesn't hit the stack until after the rebound trigger resolves and we unwrap our present.
@@asdfghjkl2261it's not so bad if you read the reminder text for Rebound as shown on Ephemerate. There's an upkeep trigger that's separate from an actual cast, it says right there.
And this sort of silly shit is why I quit Magic every time I pick it back up. Little gotcha stuff like this.
thank god it was banned lol
this is why noone likes amy
I feel like the rebound scenario requires an extra "step" in that you need to maintain priority and control over the stack.
I happen to have a blink deck on mtgo and I swear I've ran into that rare instance of having 2 or more rebound effects and just 1 target and managed to click too fast and mess the whole thing up!
You don't need to maintain priority for this to work (Indeed, you'd need to pass priority before anything can resolve). Both triggers go onto the stack at upkeep and then wait their turn to resolve
The circle of teleportation one is correct, but why would Ephemerate not work the same way??
It should be at the start of your turn the two Ephemerate triggers go on the stack. You have to choose your target with them as you put them on the stack.
The first Ephemerate trigger resolves flickering the grief. The second Ephemerate trigger resolves and should have no target.
Why would you get to target on resolution?
The rebound triggers get put onto the stack not the ephemerate spells. As each rebound trigger resolves it allows you to cast the spell which is when you would choose a target
you didn't say original problem statement 😮