I’m not an engineer but my wife is. One of her coworkers actually helped design the engine layout of a fort pickup truck back in like the 70s (guy is pushing 80 and refuses to comply retire) and he was told back then to intentionally make certain aspects of the layout harder so it would be more difficult for diy repairs and they would have to get it professionally serviced… this was 50 years ago THEN! I cannot imagine how much BS corporate culture is pushing that now.
@@marke8930wow dealer mechanics. Geez, I wonder what would a low class working family with no money to afford a dealer mechanic have to do to be able to fix something dealer mechanics find difficult and/or have all the special tools they need to fix some contraption that could be easily resolved by designing it simpler 🤔🤔🤔🤔? Kinda sounds to me like repairs are hard to DIY on purpose and that money was supposed to go for the dealer they were only thinking about. Considering your dealer mechanic making repairs vs a normal slim-to-none car knowledge person trying to DIY issues are two totally different concepts.
The real answer. Shit comes up you have checkpoints where some dude needs to make sure you can finish a product in time, and sometimes in the crunch you bring something out that works good enough for THEM and they want to get it out NOW. Also sometimes the timeline that they give you when you're doing your initial design isn't the timeline you're actually getting. Or it just straight up isn't enough time for the shit they want from you from the very start.
Holy Christ if i had the amount of time needed to make sure everything was correct, this sort of stuff wouldn’t be an issue. Not to mention struggling to give two rats when the pay sucks.
I want to believe this but when literally every vehicle out there has at least a few, if not several issues like this I lean towards it being intentional rather than rushing or incompetence. With the collective decades of experience that an engineering team draws on when designing something as complex as an automobile, typically coming together over the course of several years, I have doubts that the stupid engineering choices boil down to "we were getting rushed".
I think that placing a hole in front of a screw does not cost more than placing it 3 cm higher... Stop making excuses for these guys. They are just ignorant and incompetent.
@@Auroche no it doesn't lol, every change involves moving other components around. Sometimes to make it easier to access, we design a more complex system to reduce the labor time, but it requires more material, and this more cost. This often gets shut down in the favor of saving money, and the labor time gets extended because we had to take shortcuts to save material. Then the mechanics get screwed over because the insurance often only allows a certain amount of billable hours. If the insurance only covers a 5 hour repair, and it takes the Mechanic 9 hours, the mechanic only gets paid 5 hours
Engineer here. I'm actually the one that designed the frame to have that clearance hole. I remember modelling it while rubbing my shitty beard and going "yeah.. fuck you"
As an engineer I can explain. The tensioner was placed. Then the hole was placed to allow for tooling. Then an issue arose later requiring a slight translation of the tensioner's location and the engineers failed to annotate the tooling hole association. These associations are fixed in a lot of model-based definition designs today by forcing an association between the CAD parts in programs like CREO. Anyway...it isn't that they hate you...they just don't think of you at all.
As a machinist who makes the stuff engineers come up with, I agree. Engineers simply are oblivious to how anything is made and draw up prints like two year olds. I can't tell you how many prints I've had to correct, guess, fix, re-make, make calls on and the engineers just sit there with their mouth hanging open. I don't understand why engineers make so much money. I do all the work.
@@Moonless6491 You can just do it all. Whence cometh being a lowly machinist? You can start your own company. Probably missing out on a big opportunity.
This is exactly the comment I was looking for. Engineers only give a fuck about how complex they can make a system so they can feed their massive egos. I've worked with dozens and dozens of engineers over the years. I have yet to meet one who preferred simplicity over complexity. Not a single one.
Engineers are at the mercy of the company. They say make them think an attempt was made, but in the end still may just decide to go to the dealer for repairs.
No, they’re not. The company doesn’t have any idea why engineers do what they do. It’s why they hired engineers; To do stuff they don’t understand. They expect engineers to improve their product gradually, but ultimately, it’s the engineers that decide how things get done.
@@knifedance2402 Wow. Where the hell is a company that has so little control? All those engineers that were hired have engineers as bosses. Those bosses are the bridge between the company and the work staff. Im one of those bosses.
And that is because they don't know how to actually speak or talk anymore, and forgot to send the email to the other team. In other words, all they care about is showing up to collect a paycheck like anyone with a job anywhere these days.
@@MotorcycleRebuildsyou clearly don’t listen. He said that you have to drop the motor 3 inches. So the motor mounts have nothing to do with this piss poor design.
That’s your problem you guys think oh it works on my computer must work in real life. Well 9/10 it doesn’t. So how about put some actual thought into the shit y’all design and stop leaving us trade guys to fix your dumbass ideas. Cause it’s not just you design mechanics that do this shit. Guys that design intricate builds love to do shit that just makes absolutely no sense.
I can tell you exactly what happened as an automotive engineer. Meeting 1: “we have a service issue, we need to access this fastener for our 75,000 mile service interval. Okay we can put a hole there”. Meeting 2-30 the sheet metal team was not talked to by the engine team and the fastener was moved for some other issue. 1.5 years later they discover the problem in the second round of test vehicles. “Oh shit we already paid for the sheet metal dies and they have a 20 month lead time” So they quickly implement a service procedure fix to get around the issue. Guarantee you the engineer who moved the fastener told his manager. I also guarantee you that manager or the sheet metal engineering manager didn’t do their fucking job. Neither did the systems engineering manager who is supposed to be tracking this kind of stuff. Ask me how I know.
You can't tell us to ask a question and not answer it.. also, when you do answer it can you reply to this message so I can see your answer? Thanks bud... very interesting breakdown.
@@nathanstewart2168 I’ve sat in plenty of these design reviews. I had a similar issue on the rear axle of the latest GM trucks where they could not be made because someone did not think about a new process and did it the old way anyway. These cars are designed by teams of 3-4,000 people. The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing because they are not well run. It has gotten even worse now that they don’t pay people to stay and turn-over is high.
i call BS on that, engineers couldnt identify a problem if it had bells and whistles on it with a sign saying hey you dumba$$ im a problem grow a braincell and think of a way to fix me
Well, that’s sometimes all we have. Maybe the hole was lining up with the bolt when it was new. But engine and transmission mounts do collapse over time and things get out of line.
@@TimJaeger-lh3yh I feel you... But a good engineers usually test things. Oh I forgot, testing is expensive. And good, experienced engineers who know how things work, ask for so much money! So the management says - why hire such guy, when we can have someone straight after studies, asking for 1/3rd of that wage? And let's give him our toughest and most complicated stuff to design. Especially when he's inexperienced - he will not whine about why this is too thin, why we can't do it this way, why we can't weld that cover over the most service requiring parts of the machine... :D
actual automotive engineer here. These drive-trains are often shared amongst several vehicle programs and these tolerance issues would require retooling the drive train or chassis for each program which costs time & money. this isn't done intentionally, its a side effect of saving money.
Maintenance and serviceability is purposely engineered like this to make difficult for one to repair these newer models unless the are a qualified ASE certified mechanic. Meaning: more money is to be made for the automotive industry. What this young lad is pointing out is painfully obvious of being a shitty engineering design. Welcome to the real world young blood. I say let's put Jesus Christ in charge instead of these greedy halfwits that rule over us. Sound good? 😀👍
Used to work as a mechanic. Customer pays for the book time it takes to complete. If it says it takes 5 hrs then you get paid for 5 hrs even if it takes you 10
As a mechanical engineering student who worked in the auto repair industry, I couldn’t agree with you more and I have made it my life’s mission to make this right.
youre gonna feel crushed when you get into industry and realise that youre gonna be on a team of 6 people designing an air filter and have no real power in the overall design of the car.
It's the same in civil engineering lol. Architect: This is my finest design and it will look amazing! Mr. Civil, make this work! Civil: *Looks at existing contours* 😨😨🫨🫨😵💫😵💫
3 different engineers designed the engine, support and engine mount. It's likely the position of the engine was changed late in the design after the hole location was finalized in the support. The issue wasn't caught until preproduction.The program manager justified not scraping the supports and delaying the program because "all you need to do is drop the engine". The mistake was made by a communication break down in engineering, it was made permanent by management.
Two possibilities: 1. They did it on accident. Trust me, that is possible. 2. They did it on purpose to piss of mechanics "encouraging" owners to bring it into the dealers. You be the judge.
Im going to presume theres another engine option available on that vehicle where the hole lines up, but they didnt bother changing the body to account for those changes in other configurations.
@@Giborski well a company that is not a piece of retarded shit would just have 2 holes. One would work with one engine option and other would work with other engine option.
That's not an access hole. That is a fixture hole that is used when welding the body together at the factory. If the engineers were aware you were using it as an access hole they would figure out a way to delete it and make you remove the engine.
I laughed way too hard at this 😂 but it's accurate. They would say it's not rated for torque to be passed through the structural tin can they cobbled together
I completely relate to this. I’m an engineer who actually likes building & repairing things, but I firmly believe that engineers should be required to work hands-on with their own designs.
Yeup. Am an engineer in the ag industry. I do hands on with almost all of my designs. The hard part comes when some companies have unions. Engineers can't go hands on, cause you're "taking the job" of the techs...
That's the biggest issue, not many engineers get field experience. I'm an electrical engineer at a utility and still have to get out to the field or talk to construction about things. Isn't til you get some field work that you really get the full picture
They don't let you do that anymore because it is 'too dangerous' and 'you aren't trained for it so you can't do it' like they said that my engineering team can't solder on its own anymore because we need lead solder and lead is apparently too dangerous for people with phd's to handle because they weren't specifically trained for that.
Lol they literally type out the service procedures step by step with pictures so the field technicians don’t even have to pay close attention one time or remember how to do anything, except for how to read and follow directions. Some just forget they can read over time and some live in complete denial of the service manuals existence. When you can’t figure a repair out just ask yourself, which one are you. And then go read some tsb’s and search for service procedure updates and check for special tools. If after all that you are still baffled only then can you start cursing the engineers in preparation for calling tech support hotline.
I'm actually an aircraft mechanic but I've done lots of prototype work where I've had to work closely with engineers. I've asked engineers why the hole in the bulkhead that's used to remove a bolt can't just line up with the bolt rather than making the mechanics remove half the accessories, or jack the engine to get to that bolt. They just look at me like I've asked the stupidest question ever. It's a matter of respect and that's why the old engineers tend to be successful with a whole lot less effort, they listen. I get the impression that most engineers never even talk to the mechanic. I'll have to admit that some manuals are very well written but the design process rarely seems try and simplify the maintenance process. In the end, the customer is the one who suffers.
@@jaxturner7288I probably have more training hours and certifications than you could even dream of. If you've done vehicle repairs or recalls half the pictures are not of "complete" vehicles they're of staged models. The repair procedure and TSBs can only get you so far The fact is engineers only know X+Y=Z (because math said so)...
@@jaxturner7288As a mechanic and restoration hobbyist you’re dead wrong And I could bet anything that not only have I been working on cars And tractors probably longer then you’ve been alive I’ve one hundred percent read more service manuals Engineers simply make mistakes due to oversight. It’s not unheard of it’s not because people can’t read it’s because it’s just a simple disconnect from the reality of having to service or maintain something they’ve designed. An engineer can be overwhelmed with figuring out how to get everything to fit and function properly in a design so it’s only natural that sometimes quality of life for servicing is put on the back burner It’s a pain in the ass but it’s just how the world is it’s not like engineers Are dumb or have some sort of grudge. It’s just oversight it happens with everything But boy let me tell you when you work on some things it really really does seem like the engineer was huffing glue but I think we usually know deep down that nothing can be perfect and every product And profession can and will have its own quirks
They didnt even think about that. They designed this car to go together quickly on a line nobody gives a shit about fixing it when it breaks. Nobody has in a long time. And i get it, ive done this job. Wish id had that badass headlamp when it was my turn
What probably happened is the team working on the tensioner forgot to mention to the body people they moved the tensioner slightly because they don't deal will access issues and don't have to think about it. The two teams designing this aren't at fault, it's the 3rd team of system engineers that failed to notice and by the time it was noticed, during manufacturing probably, it was too costly to change according to the accountants, so blame them as well.
20 years ago, there was a rotary mower called a Ransome Ar250. On the production line, the engine would drop in just fine. only problem was there was no clearance to fully un-thread the oil filter. So mechanics started cutting holes in the side frames to fully un-thread the oil filter. 3 years down the road, the size of the hole needed was big enough to cause the side frame to rust and eventually fail.
As a nissan owner I agree. I feel like they only design shit with the part there bolting on and the peice it bolts onto completely ignoring everything else around it
And Nissan is crap now anyway and has been ever since they merged with Renault years ago. I rented a Versa last year and it seems like half the parts under the hood were stamped with Renault. Nissan doesn’t even hide the fact. Garbage cars especially their CVT gearboxes. Throw away cars.
@@TealJosh that's normally true depending on the project. But I've seen a few engineers who are very careful and get it right the first time more than not. But these use a lot of time in doing so. Others just want to buzz on our and get home to a beer every night like a young construction worker. These tend to be more sloppy and take little pride in their work. I often wonder why they got into engineering, with no passion for the work at all. For 13 years I lead an engineering team. One of my engineers made a lot of mistakes and I started to get a lot of complaints from our technicians. I took them seriously and listened to what they had to say. I asked, "how much time per week would you say you have to fix his mistakes" to which they responded, "about two to four hours and sometimes s little more". I thought about this for a bit and responded, "this engineer does three times the work of my other engineers. I don't want to ask him to slow down because he is very productive. But I will spend some time with him to improve his accuracy". I asked for a few months to improve things and the technicians agreed. The engineer did show down a little and his accuracy really improved. This engineer was one of the few who took personal responsibility for high output and kept an eye on the calendar. He was like a unicorn and I miss him.
I wonder if a VIM half-cut Torx would be able to get it from the bottom, either with a low-profile ratchet or by using a pair of vise grips to turn the bit. I've gotten into some really tight spots with mine, and wouldn't want to be without them.
This. I once got a call to weld a hydraulic suspension line on a Mercedes. Customer was an engineer for Boeing, and he somehow thought that epoxy was gonna fix the hydraulic line that he literally cut in half for whatever reason. Engineers are just tards who get paid to overthink everything.
@@criticaltexan2334and then focus on the wrong thing, and are paid to screw over others who will work on the product later on, thereby netting those mechanics(/whomever) a bigger paycheck due to more work done due to bad design? Is that an innocent enemy or a mischievous ally? We're all just dumbass humans, nobody cares unless they choose to. Who would? We dont get paid enough.
Honestly, my theory is that it’s made much harder to prevent the layman from doing the maintenance themselves. Get people to take it to the dealership.
No, it was designed to be installed as part of the front assembly, which includes suspension and steering parts. It was designed to just slip up and be bolted into place. They never thought about anything other than time for install and saving money by using already existing parts to cut costs for higher profit margins out the door. That may not have been the initial design engineers thought as that part gets warped once production engineers get their hands on it as they have to find ways to get the same result at a cheaper price.
theres less than an inch clearance to put those attachments on and TORQUE it in a small area. this is not smart and doesn’t convince any one human or otherwise that we are smart
@@regiscidal9078 pretty sure all Torque spec's are just, so tight you cant turn it by hand and 3 taps with a hammer. Of course the factory wouldn't tell you.
As a software engineer, I can confidently say it was because we have never once spoken to the mechanical engineers that sit about 60 feet away from us.
@@zbou23as an engineer, it's because they probably aren't even on the same continent as each other and one part was designed for a completely different car.
My Grand Prix GXP is the same damn way man. Had to take it to the shop to get my tensioner off as well. Felt so defeated. I really didn't want to have to drop my motor.
@@drflannelxd904 I don't think engineers set out to create difficulty on purpose. Through thousands of design decisions things get overlooked or compromises are made due to timelines and budgets. That said, I think there's business reasoning that repairs that require more labor and skills result in higher revenues for dealerships... So, perhaps they don't lose sleep when things like this arise?
@@gunsite4575% really because at this point conspiracy theories are news in a few months. Like whenever a "conspiracy theory" about covid came out. 4-6 months later it was fact all a sudden.
Engineer definitely identified the issue in the design process. Told lead engineer of the issue. Was told to come up with a solution. They did so. Bean counter then came in and said make it even cheaper. The end
True story. I had a co-worker who called tech support, waited online for 20 minutes. Told the guy that came on, " I don't need any help, I got it fixed. I just want you to look up the engineer and punch him in the throat for me. " We've all thought that. But he's the only guy I knew that waited 20 minutes just to say it.😅
Most engineering descriptions of an engine is based upon a complete disassembly, even down to constituent parts of items you don't need to take apart. It's not that the engineers hate you, it's that you don't work their way.
Slapping engineers will result in access holes being moved sideways from that point on. Not only will we make you drop the engine, we'll force you to tilt it as well.
You pretty much got it. Budget allows for a certain amount of labor, then the head of the dept says "send the cost to maintenance" because they're only really worried about their bonus, they might not even be there next year.
From what i know its mostly the ceos and stockholders who make this happen. The workers and designers would rather it work as intended and make something good.
Accountants and managers have more influence in the decision making than the engineers. I always try to k.i.s.s. but if someone says otherwise with more clout I can do shit about it
No, the people at the top WANT it to be as hard as possible to repair the cars, so all the dealer specfic tools are needed to fix your car. They want them to be as hard to repair as cell phones
The engineer who designed that engine never imagined 15 years later they'd still be using it and cramming it into a different car. So, blame the bean counters.
I understand the frustration...usually there's a few cuss words and a busted knuckle before I just drill another hole and then ask myself why the hell didn't I do that to begin with.
As an engineer: Don't just drill holes into the body of a car... We do a lot of computer modeling to end up at the exact shape a car body is... Drilling random holes into a cars messes with that a lot. :(
@@RoonMian So you being an engineer, answer me this then. Why is is that you people make shit so hard to work on without special tools or having to pay someone a ridiculous amount of money to fix a problem that would otherwise be an easy fix.
@@jeramypompa You figure it out. They don't want you fixing it. They want you to go broke, paying a dealer shop and/or buying an overpriced one time tool, and/or buy a brand new even bigger piece of junk. Planned obsolescence.
As a engineer and a mechanic I take pride in all my work and making sure it's able to be worked on with minimal effort. I of the mind that if you are a engineer working on a product while in design and prototype phase you should be going over every component to make sure everything meshes with everything else and is easy to access. But company's don't want reliable custom original cars that work they want cars that have to be fixed or just plain replaced and nothing is built to last or be truly fixed anymore. Not by the average person.
I think most of these kinds of things happen because it's different engineers working on different subsystems of the car at the same time and they never communicate between eachother very much. And they are engineered to be cheap and easy to assemble at the factory.
@@HellcatGamin you do know there are more than 1000 people that are involved in designing, and developing cars. So no it is not intentional just managed poorly
There are actually mechanics that prove the ability to service. It's a requirement to pass this tollgate. There is a procedure you are paid to do, so use it..
I loved how Audi did this on the older models. you get your audi tool for the job, fit it on the front, and then you can take the whole front of the car and drag it out, giving you plenty of room to work on the front of the engine.
Thats what happens when you give 30 people access to a cad file and you have a huge pile of notes that you cant get through and you don't let the first shift polish the design on top of a huge time crunch, engineers didn't do anything on purpose
Ok thats fair on an engine, but when you have to disassemble a whole door for a fuckin door handle. Only like five things in a car door, why they all gotta cover the one torx bit that needs to come off to switch the handle. On second thought, the fact cars use torx bits is proof engineers do this shit on purpose. I have the same hex socket set, flat head, and Phillips head bits from when i started years ago, any torxbits i use regularly are max 8 months before they sheer, and the bolts strip more often.
It's immaterial that you need to replace a torx bit slightly more often if it speeds up automated mass production and leads type a more consistent torque. Let's do it the dumbest way possible because it's easiest for you mentality. The cost of putting one straight blade screw on there just so you can have a slightly easier time is in the realm of tens of thousands of dollars minimum.
Guys, you don't understand, it's not the engineers fault, its the fact that the project manager isn't an engineer so they don't care that the car isn't done.
I highly recommend for those torx bolts to get a set of grip edge torx bit sockets. I’ve stripped those out with regular ones before and when I bought my set of grip edges, haven’t had an issue since. Highly highly recommended
As a computer engineer, I completely agree any engineer worth their salt should be able to put together and take apart the thing they design before presenting it as a possible solution ask by the company.
I honestly think these companies are doing it on purpose the same way they're purposefully doing it with technology, phones in particular, with the idea being the harder they make it to fix your own stuff, the more likely you are to pay them to fix it for you like at a dealership.
In a few years, you won't be able to change brakes! Some buick/chevy crossovers if you disconnect the battery.. the dealer has to flash the memory! $$$$$$$$$
I’ve been repairing phones for about 10 years. It’s way easier now than 10 years ago, and parts are easier to get. Heck, now you can even find a high res video explaining how to replace surface mounted components.
This is a bean counter issue. They tell the engineers to make assembly the cheapest as possible. Also, make it so you need to go to the dealership for the special tools.
I got an answer for that! In one of the revisions, the bolt was lined up with the access hole. One thing lead to another, and they had to move the tensioner bolt, but forgot to move the access hole before the plans got approved and sent off for production. This happens a lot when you run into unexpected issues and have deadlines to meet.
@@UN4SS1GN3Dnot really. It’s extremely unrealistic to have to do a redesign and then recheck every single part and potential access port affected before resending. It’s still a shitty mistake to make, but that’s how iterative designing works
Welcome to capitalism and its shareholders requiring their short-term quarterly profits at any cost, and thus forcing the workers of the companies they're investing in to work quickly and release even quicklier, disregarding any issues that don't directly lead to major failure.
Engineer here my man....mistakes and oversights happen (usually at later stages of design due something that's not relevant at that time). We call these lessons learned. They usually get fixed in later generations of a current model. This is why you're better of buying the last model of a given shape (usually 3 to 4 yrs in) before a complete redesigned model is introduced in the market. I promise it has nothing to do with hating you. In fact, on day one of my first job, my manager told me the best way to learn how to design something better is by watching the people that have to handel and use them. That's you.
Imagine, engineers are people too and mistakes are made everywhere. Also sometimes a multitude of unfortunate things come together to create a problem.
Mistakes are easier to track in the later stage of design, the regular occurrence is a sign of a lack of effort altogether. My gas Samsung oven died because engineers didn’t glue a pennys worth of metal to the chipset that controls the oven. What do ovens do? What do chips hate? The anecdotal evidence is stacking up that y’all are designing things to be thrown away. Plain and simple
I was woking on design of locking system on some van. It shared the ground wire for locking motor and locking sensor, and used the same wireing form a car. It being a van, it had more powerful locking motors, so higher current caused locking sensors to glitch, sometimes. But we were notmallowed to chage the wireing. So we had to engineer our way around the problem by ignoring sensor signal for 1s. I hated my job so much.
No u don’t… one thing to build it… another thing to fix it with rusted bolts and car parts that falling apart or rusted beyond 😂… I take your job building it brand new
I don’t think engineers hate you, it’s more of a joke… It’s more of “Have fun repairing this engine”. Cause like, how long/much do you think engineers have studied. How much math and physics they have to learn. You get really tired of it, it’s only logical/fun to fuck with the people down the line.
My dumbass would just make another hole 😂
Honestly same
I was just thinking the same. Bus owner gets a bill for 6hrs work or gets a hole in the back he doesn’t even know is there.
My smartass*
Yep, I would have done the same...But i would have attempted to get a bit and uni joint first.
And that makes you and me working engineers with no degree😂😂
Mechanics: “you took everything from me”
Engineers: “I don’t even know who you are”
Bingo!
@@ryta1203wym
And that there is the issue isn't it?
perfectly complicated *as all engines should be*
Also Engineers: my designs are perfect and I don't care if anyone likes it or not.
They don’t hate you. They just don’t think of you, at all, ever.
Yep
True, we don’t 😂🤷♂️
Some say that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.
Not true at all.
@@giovannebeistline2575sure seems like it
I’m not an engineer but my wife is. One of her coworkers actually helped design the engine layout of a fort pickup truck back in like the 70s (guy is pushing 80 and refuses to comply retire) and he was told back then to intentionally make certain aspects of the layout harder so it would be more difficult for diy repairs and they would have to get it professionally serviced… this was 50 years ago THEN! I cannot imagine how much BS corporate culture is pushing that now.
This is not true. You have to consider your dealer mechanics when you design for service.
@marke8930 you mean making proprietary tools?
thats bs
@@z0mn1a Yes, and than those "special tools" can get very expensive ...
@@marke8930wow dealer mechanics. Geez, I wonder what would a low class working family with no money to afford a dealer mechanic have to do to be able to fix something dealer mechanics find difficult and/or have all the special tools they need to fix some contraption that could be easily resolved by designing it simpler 🤔🤔🤔🤔? Kinda sounds to me like repairs are hard to DIY on purpose and that money was supposed to go for the dealer they were only thinking about.
Considering your dealer mechanic making repairs vs a normal slim-to-none car knowledge person trying to DIY issues are two totally different concepts.
Back in the 1950s an engineer caught a mechanic with his wife and it's been payback ever since...
This is great
I heard it was mechanics, plural.....
That's the difference it can make between going to the drawing board, or popping the hood
I guess Japanese value honor too much for this petty nonsense lol
@@TrillMurray no...look at the starter position on the Toyota pickup...UNDER the exhaust manifold!
Engineer: "almost ready, I just need to fix a few things"
manager: "just ship it we're behind schedule"
This is the reality. Everybody has their own bosses that only care about money
The real answer.
Shit comes up you have checkpoints where some dude needs to make sure you can finish a product in time, and sometimes in the crunch you bring something out that works good enough for THEM and they want to get it out NOW.
Also sometimes the timeline that they give you when you're doing your initial design isn't the timeline you're actually getting. Or it just straight up isn't enough time for the shit they want from you from the very start.
Holy Christ if i had the amount of time needed to make sure everything was correct, this sort of stuff wouldn’t be an issue. Not to mention struggling to give two rats when the pay sucks.
I want to believe this but when literally every vehicle out there has at least a few, if not several issues like this I lean towards it being intentional rather than rushing or incompetence.
With the collective decades of experience that an engineering team draws on when designing something as complex as an automobile, typically coming together over the course of several years, I have doubts that the stupid engineering choices boil down to "we were getting rushed".
Engineer: Access hole needs to be here.
Manufacturer: no problem it will be there-ish.
As a person who has studied this a ton: Don't blame the engineer, blame the suits that wanted to cut costs
I think that placing a hole in front of a screw does not cost more than placing it 3 cm higher... Stop making excuses for these guys. They are just ignorant and incompetent.
Without the suits, no one gets paid.
@@MilesFromExtraordinary of course they're necessary, I never said they weren't. My point still stands tho
It costs the EXACT SAME to change the location of a hole you were to make anyways.
@@Auroche no it doesn't lol, every change involves moving other components around. Sometimes to make it easier to access, we design a more complex system to reduce the labor time, but it requires more material, and this more cost. This often gets shut down in the favor of saving money, and the labor time gets extended because we had to take shortcuts to save material. Then the mechanics get screwed over because the insurance often only allows a certain amount of billable hours. If the insurance only covers a 5 hour repair, and it takes the Mechanic 9 hours, the mechanic only gets paid 5 hours
Engineer here. I'm actually the one that designed the frame to have that clearance hole. I remember modelling it while rubbing my shitty beard and going "yeah.. fuck you"
Arigato
😂
Funniest comment I've read all night
Gracias
Ur funny
As an engineer I can explain. The tensioner was placed. Then the hole was placed to allow for tooling. Then an issue arose later requiring a slight translation of the tensioner's location and the engineers failed to annotate the tooling hole association. These associations are fixed in a lot of model-based definition designs today by forcing an association between the CAD parts in programs like CREO. Anyway...it isn't that they hate you...they just don't think of you at all.
As a machinist who makes the stuff engineers come up with, I agree. Engineers simply are oblivious to how anything is made and draw up prints like two year olds. I can't tell you how many prints I've had to correct, guess, fix, re-make, make calls on and the engineers just sit there with their mouth hanging open. I don't understand why engineers make so much money. I do all the work.
Or the engine mounts are bad.
@@Moonless6491 Sounds like you could make that pitch to management...if it were true. Deep down I think we both know the answer.
@@JenkinsStevenD Management is as clueless as engineers are.
@@Moonless6491 You can just do it all. Whence cometh being a lowly machinist? You can start your own company. Probably missing out on a big opportunity.
Engineers “we don’t do shit to piss you off”
Actual Engineers “I don’t think of you at all”
That's the reason why they get pissed :V
This is exactly the comment I was looking for. Engineers only give a fuck about how complex they can make a system so they can feed their massive egos. I've worked with dozens and dozens of engineers over the years. I have yet to meet one who preferred simplicity over complexity. Not a single one.
@@jimmyjuju here's your first.
@@micahslash it's not for me to decide. Ask the people who have to work with your design if they agree with your assertion.
@@jimmyjujuthen you must know some bad engineers.
Engineers are at the mercy of the company. They say make them think an attempt was made, but in the end still may just decide to go to the dealer for repairs.
No, they’re not. The company doesn’t have any idea why engineers do what they do. It’s why they hired engineers; To do stuff they don’t understand. They expect engineers to improve their product gradually, but ultimately, it’s the engineers that decide how things get done.
@@knifedance2402 Wow. Where the hell is a company that has so little control? All those engineers that were hired have engineers as bosses. Those bosses are the bridge between the company and the work staff.
Im one of those bosses.
Because cars are designed by teams and teams never have perfect communication between team members.
And that is because they don't know how to actually speak or talk anymore, and forgot to send the email to the other team. In other words, all they care about is showing up to collect a paycheck like anyone with a job anywhere these days.
That tensioner was probably one guy’s entire job. The body designer was in another country and doesn’t speak the same language
As a mechanical designer, all I can say to you is:"it looked good on the CAD."
As a software engineer, I feel you. Works on my computer.
Motor mounts dry out and shrink. This could attribute to the engine being in a raised position.
@@MotorcycleRebuildsyou clearly don’t listen. He said that you have to drop the motor 3 inches. So the motor mounts have nothing to do with this piss poor design.
That’s your problem you guys think oh it works on my computer must work in real life. Well 9/10 it doesn’t. So how about put some actual thought into the shit y’all design and stop leaving us trade guys to fix your dumbass ideas. Cause it’s not just you design mechanics that do this shit. Guys that design intricate builds love to do shit that just makes absolutely no sense.
@@brennonobrien4672right. You have to lower it. Because its in a raised position. Read first, comment later.
My dad would say, “this was designed on a Friday at 4:55pm” 😂😂
My dad would say time to make a new access hole.
Your dad sounds like he has some good jokes. 😄 Definitely gonna use that one-thank you! ❤
Added to my Sayings list
Military dad haha
I’ve never heard so much truth in someone’s words.
They actually do this because they love you. Ordinary driveway mechanics won't be able to tackle this job, so you get the business.
this is why i love the chevy ls whomever made that had us mechanics in mind.
I can tell you exactly what happened as an automotive engineer.
Meeting 1: “we have a service issue, we need to access this fastener for our 75,000 mile service interval. Okay we can put a hole there”.
Meeting 2-30 the sheet metal team was not talked to by the engine team and the fastener was moved for some other issue.
1.5 years later they discover the problem in the second round of test vehicles. “Oh shit we already paid for the sheet metal dies and they have a 20 month lead time”
So they quickly implement a service procedure fix to get around the issue.
Guarantee you the engineer who moved the fastener told his manager. I also guarantee you that manager or the sheet metal engineering manager didn’t do their fucking job. Neither did the systems engineering manager who is supposed to be tracking this kind of stuff.
Ask me how I know.
How you know lol
Ya how
You can't tell us to ask a question and not answer it.. also, when you do answer it can you reply to this message so I can see your answer? Thanks bud... very interesting breakdown.
@@nathanstewart2168 I’ve sat in plenty of these design reviews. I had a similar issue on the rear axle of the latest GM trucks where they could not be made because someone did not think about a new process and did it the old way anyway.
These cars are designed by teams of 3-4,000 people. The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing because they are not well run. It has gotten even worse now that they don’t pay people to stay and turn-over is high.
The high turnover rate is one of the worst things imaginable when running a large project that takes several years to complete.
Also an engineer.
The engineers often identify the problem. Then the bean counters or marketing tells them stfu.
i call BS on that, engineers couldnt identify a problem if it had bells and whistles on it with a sign saying hey you dumba$$ im a problem grow a braincell and think of a way to fix me
This is the true root of the problem.
Finally someone who understands.. engineer's don't always have free Reign
That or no one communicated when a dimension changed until it was too late
Yeah because in this case it would cost so much more to put the hole slightly higher.
Guarantee you this issue was brought to management, and it was decided that changing the location of the hole was too expensive.
Engineers: “That’s not my problem, that’s yours”
Yes, But Ooooooonly the Bad engineers are saying this !!! ! !!!
Engineers' favorite phrase "It worked in CAD."
I feel even older as we use to hear, "Well it works on paper."
Well, that’s sometimes all we have. Maybe the hole was lining up with the bolt when it was new. But engine and transmission mounts do collapse over time and things get out of line.
@@TimJaeger-lh3yh I feel you... But a good engineers usually test things. Oh I forgot, testing is expensive. And good, experienced engineers who know how things work, ask for so much money!
So the management says - why hire such guy, when we can have someone straight after studies, asking for 1/3rd of that wage? And let's give him our toughest and most complicated stuff to design. Especially when he's inexperienced - he will not whine about why this is too thin, why we can't do it this way, why we can't weld that cover over the most service requiring parts of the machine... :D
im on both sides i design and i make, if i know im not building it and just designing, i make damn sure it gives them a hard time
You guys really have to change to the metric system. It doesn't solve all problems but it makes anything to do with measuring easier.
A mechanic's job is to find out what the fuck the engineer was thinking
Or to find all the shit the engineers screwed up.
Definitely underrated comment
Sometimes the answer is ‘they weren’t.’
They designed for assembly, not repair.
@@gamesguy one-way only.
actual automotive engineer here. These drive-trains are often shared amongst several vehicle programs and these tolerance issues would require retooling the drive train or chassis for each program which costs time & money. this isn't done intentionally, its a side effect of saving money.
Knowing about what things are strong and why they are strong is still helpful for guiding casual play. Calibrating expectations.
They don’t hate you, they love you enough to give you 3 extra hours for any job. They hate the customer since they pay for that time.
Maintenance and serviceability is purposely engineered like this to make difficult for one to repair these newer models unless the are a qualified ASE certified mechanic.
Meaning: more money is to be made for the automotive industry. What this young lad is pointing out is painfully obvious of being a shitty engineering design.
Welcome to the real world young blood.
I say let's put Jesus Christ in charge instead of these greedy halfwits that rule over us. Sound good? 😀👍
Used to work as a mechanic. Customer pays for the book time it takes to complete. If it says it takes 5 hrs then you get paid for 5 hrs even if it takes you 10
I seriously doubt replacing a belt tensioner is going to include lowering the engine in the book time.
its actually just a 30 mins work,u remove the 2 14mm bolts thats holding the tensioner and the whole tensioner comes off
You the reason people don't trust mechanics
Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
This phrase really only works when you understand the difference between ignorance and stupidity
@@siccoblue2112Underrated comment.
Conversely, never attribute to ignorance what could be explained by malice.
Nissan, stupidity...yup it checks out.
Never explain something by stupidity if it can be attributed to the intentional monopolization of after-market repair costs by manufacturers
Clever people puts subtitles up on top in UA-cam shorts. Hats off 👍🏻👍🏻
Bro, the engineer is just one of 85 people that make the end product.
Mechanic: "Engineers are assholes".
Engineers: "It wasn't broke when it left here".
Dev: "It works on my machine"
Scientist: "It works in theory"
Ha ha ha ha
it wasnt THAT broke
is this genuinely an engineer thing? are car manufacturers not allowed to jerry rig their own assembly lines? what if they had spare parts?
Me with an angle grinder: me now engineer.
😂
Me am now eninemeneer
Angle grinder go brrrr
ME ENGIE
it is not hate- it is incompetence.
As a mechanical engineering student who worked in the auto repair industry, I couldn’t agree with you more and I have made it my life’s mission to make this right.
youre gonna feel crushed when you get into industry and realise that youre gonna be on a team of 6 people designing an air filter and have no real power in the overall design of the car.
@@callanc3925 haha, I know. This is mostly a joke. I already work on a team of engineers and it can be difficult sometimes.
As an engineer myself, I hope you enjoyed our practical jokes of “looks good on CAD, but not practical”
At school we say close enough for engineers
As an engineer as well looks good on cad is some of the last words you'll say
It's the same in civil engineering lol.
Architect: This is my finest design and it will look amazing! Mr. Civil, make this work!
Civil: *Looks at existing contours* 😨😨🫨🫨😵💫😵💫
@@chewymustard6426 😂👍
@@xenulus5282 very true 😂😂
Dad's been an engineer for 50 + years... "no that group of engineers said fuck you" ima take his word
we saw that one and told the interns we didnt feel the math that day.
the interns tried their best.
Not just mechanics but the owners as well.
our engineers gave me this gem once "yeah it didn't fit in CAD too."
that's the words of someone who was told to send it anyway
HAHA yes. Love that so many real engineering people are in the comments.
Quality manager : hey this datum doesn’t line up
Production manager: Ship it
so true
100%
My shop in one conversation
Nothing but the truth
Just send her!
3 different engineers designed the engine, support and engine mount. It's likely the position of the engine was changed late in the design after the hole location was finalized in the support. The issue wasn't caught until preproduction.The program manager justified not scraping the supports and delaying the program because "all you need to do is drop the engine". The mistake was made by a communication break down in engineering, it was made permanent by management.
Two possibilities:
1. They did it on accident. Trust me, that is possible.
2. They did it on purpose to piss of mechanics "encouraging" owners to bring it into the dealers.
You be the judge.
Mechanics - "Why do you engineers hate us?"
Engineers -"We don't think about you at all."
The tragic secret
Engineers - “sure let me just put it up a few-“
Budgeting - “ The hell you are.”
Manufacturing - “😂 look at you with the jokes”
Im going to presume theres another engine option available on that vehicle where the hole lines up, but they didnt bother changing the body to account for those changes in other configurations.
@@Giborski well a company that is not a piece of retarded shit would just have 2 holes. One would work with one engine option and other would work with other engine option.
They hardly think period looking at that design
That's not an access hole. That is a fixture hole that is used when welding the body together at the factory. If the engineers were aware you were using it as an access hole they would figure out a way to delete it and make you remove the engine.
I laughed way too hard at this 😂 but it's accurate. They would say it's not rated for torque to be passed through the structural tin can they cobbled together
Exactly.... once this video goes viral were all fuked...
I say we kick his ass!!
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Lmao.
Knew or new?
Real simple, the engineer had a side-hustle making a socket adaptor which enables you to reach the bolt.
When the engineers/designers do stupid BS like this, they should sued and fired or PAY FOR ALL THE LABOR TO DROP THE ENGINE, REPAIR AND RE-INSTALL.
Actually, while the engineer was adjusting the hole in his CAD software, the cat came along messed with mouse.
This is plausible given that he's working on a Nissan.
Username checks out.
Cat Aided Design
Is the cat the financial department that ordered the motor mounts? Because they where cheaper?
Or his "my 300lb life" dropout wife shook it after waddling to the fridge
I completely relate to this. I’m an engineer who actually likes building & repairing things, but I firmly believe that engineers should be required to work hands-on with their own designs.
Yeup. Am an engineer in the ag industry. I do hands on with almost all of my designs.
The hard part comes when some companies have unions. Engineers can't go hands on, cause you're "taking the job" of the techs...
That's the biggest issue, not many engineers get field experience. I'm an electrical engineer at a utility and still have to get out to the field or talk to construction about things. Isn't til you get some field work that you really get the full picture
They don't let you do that anymore because it is 'too dangerous' and 'you aren't trained for it so you can't do it' like they said that my engineering team can't solder on its own anymore because we need lead solder and lead is apparently too dangerous for people with phd's to handle because they weren't specifically trained for that.
I just posted this... before I saw your post!
Yes I completely agree
What’s probably happened is the engineers that worked on the engine were not informed of layout changes in the structure of the car. Tends to happen
The esay way to explain is, things that last do not come easy.
Things that come easy do not last
Mechanic: "Why do you hate us?"
Engineers: "We don't like your tone." **Opens CAD**
The engineers should have to show mechanics how to do it before getting paid.
Lol they literally type out the service procedures step by step with pictures so the field technicians don’t even have to pay close attention one time or remember how to do anything, except for how to read and follow directions.
Some just forget they can read over time and some live in complete denial of the service manuals existence.
When you can’t figure a repair out just ask yourself, which one are you.
And then go read some tsb’s and search for service procedure updates and check for special tools.
If after all that you are still baffled only then can you start cursing the engineers in preparation for calling tech support hotline.
I'm actually an aircraft mechanic but I've done lots of prototype work where I've had to work closely with engineers. I've asked engineers why the hole in the bulkhead that's used to remove a bolt can't just line up with the bolt rather than making the mechanics remove half the accessories, or jack the engine to get to that bolt. They just look at me like I've asked the stupidest question ever. It's a matter of respect and that's why the old engineers tend to be successful with a whole lot less effort, they listen. I get the impression that most engineers never even talk to the mechanic.
I'll have to admit that some manuals are very well written but the design process rarely seems try and simplify the maintenance process. In the end, the customer is the one who suffers.
@@jaxturner7288I probably have more training hours and certifications than you could even dream of. If you've done vehicle repairs or recalls half the pictures are not of "complete" vehicles they're of staged models. The repair procedure and TSBs can only get you so far
The fact is engineers only know X+Y=Z (because math said so)...
@@jaxturner7288As a mechanic and restoration hobbyist you’re dead wrong And I could bet anything that not only have I been working on cars And tractors probably longer then you’ve been alive I’ve one hundred percent read more service manuals
Engineers simply make mistakes due to oversight. It’s not unheard of it’s not because people can’t read it’s because it’s just a simple disconnect from the reality of having to service or maintain something they’ve designed.
An engineer can be overwhelmed with figuring out how to get everything to fit and function properly in a design so it’s only natural that sometimes quality of life for servicing is put on the back burner
It’s a pain in the ass but it’s just how the world is it’s not like engineers Are dumb or have some sort of grudge. It’s just oversight it happens with everything
But boy let me tell you when you work on some things it really really does seem like the engineer was huffing glue but I think we usually know deep down that nothing can be perfect and every product And profession can and will have its own quirks
@@eshanroveran7850 I was the youngest TTEN instructor in the world. Respectfully you have no idea who you're talking to
They didnt even think about that. They designed this car to go together quickly on a line nobody gives a shit about fixing it when it breaks. Nobody has in a long time. And i get it, ive done this job. Wish id had that badass headlamp when it was my turn
The design team changed something last minute without telling engineering. Shit just rolls down hill.
As a structural mechanic for airplanes I feel this on a deep personal level
Was a hyd mech… my knuckles would like a word with your profession.
@@TheYaegerjeusmcI bet he never touched a line with hydro in it, and if he had them his coveralls are clean
What probably happened is the team working on the tensioner forgot to mention to the body people they moved the tensioner slightly because they don't deal will access issues and don't have to think about it. The two teams designing this aren't at fault, it's the 3rd team of system engineers that failed to notice and by the time it was noticed, during manufacturing probably, it was too costly to change according to the accountants, so blame them as well.
"today we drill a hole here"
And thats how you kill someone
@@connerruss6012what?
Considering it's a Nissan your probably right drill a hole in the fender well ,it may fall apart.
One small hole drilled correctly and then painted to prevent rust wont destroy the frame
@@MrEvtmazdathat's what the last dude said before he drilled a hole and killed someone. Lol
20 years ago, there was a rotary mower called a Ransome Ar250. On the production line, the engine would drop in just fine. only problem was there was no clearance to fully un-thread the oil filter. So mechanics started cutting holes in the side frames to fully un-thread the oil filter. 3 years down the road, the size of the hole needed was big enough to cause the side frame to rust and eventually fail.
The electronics fixer in me is also not entirely convinced that someone was not incentivized to leave it
I work at a nissan dealership and sir I sure do agree with you that they hate us lol 😢
Renault hates everything that isnt french, thats why nissan sucks ass
Nissan engineers are sadistic
I couldn't sleep at night if I worked at any dealership
As a nissan owner I agree. I feel like they only design shit with the part there bolting on and the peice it bolts onto completely ignoring everything else around it
And Nissan is crap now anyway and has been ever since they merged with Renault years ago. I rented a Versa last year and it seems like half the parts under the hood were stamped with Renault. Nissan doesn’t even hide the fact. Garbage cars especially their CVT gearboxes. Throw away cars.
Because we tried to tell a Project Manager there was an issue but got out voted and told to hurry up and sell it.
Right? These dumbasses really think the engineer has the final say so on everything NO MATTER HWHAT.
Based.
Yes, engineers only get one shot. And often engineers are bad at that.
@@microdesigns2000Everyone is bad at getting a design right in a single go.
@@TealJosh that's normally true depending on the project. But I've seen a few engineers who are very careful and get it right the first time more than not. But these use a lot of time in doing so. Others just want to buzz on our and get home to a beer every night like a young construction worker. These tend to be more sloppy and take little pride in their work. I often wonder why they got into engineering, with no passion for the work at all.
For 13 years I lead an engineering team. One of my engineers made a lot of mistakes and I started to get a lot of complaints from our technicians. I took them seriously and listened to what they had to say. I asked, "how much time per week would you say you have to fix his mistakes" to which they responded, "about two to four hours and sometimes s little more". I thought about this for a bit and responded, "this engineer does three times the work of my other engineers. I don't want to ask him to slow down because he is very productive. But I will spend some time with him to improve his accuracy". I asked for a few months to improve things and the technicians agreed. The engineer did show down a little and his accuracy really improved. This engineer was one of the few who took personal responsibility for high output and kept an eye on the calendar. He was like a unicorn and I miss him.
The government should make a longevity act, basically saying manufacturers have to cover labor for repairs for 10 years unlimited miles
I wonder if a VIM half-cut Torx would be able to get it from the bottom, either with a low-profile ratchet or by using a pair of vise grips to turn the bit. I've gotten into some really tight spots with mine, and wouldn't want to be without them.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"
Absolutely. They don’t get to see the finished product and someone left out a number or slipped the decimal point.
This. I once got a call to weld a hydraulic suspension line on a Mercedes. Customer was an engineer for Boeing, and he somehow thought that epoxy was gonna fix the hydraulic line that he literally cut in half for whatever reason.
Engineers are just tards who get paid to overthink everything.
@@criticaltexan2334and then focus on the wrong thing, and are paid to screw over others who will work on the product later on, thereby netting those mechanics(/whomever) a bigger paycheck due to more work done due to bad design? Is that an innocent enemy or a mischievous ally?
We're all just dumbass humans, nobody cares unless they choose to. Who would? We dont get paid enough.
Never? That may apply here but say i.e. for politicians. Those MFers are all about malice.👹
Honestly, my theory is that it’s made much harder to prevent the layman from doing the maintenance themselves. Get people to take it to the dealership.
Exactly! And the dealership only wants to use OEM parts. Right to Repair should probably be taken more seriously.
@@leviswranglers2813 we use whatever parts the customer wants.
Even simpler answer. They don't think about maintenance. Or at least the work required for maintenance.
No, it was designed to be installed as part of the front assembly, which includes suspension and steering parts. It was designed to just slip up and be bolted into place. They never thought about anything other than time for install and saving money by using already existing parts to cut costs for higher profit margins out the door. That may not have been the initial design engineers thought as that part gets warped once production engineers get their hands on it as they have to find ways to get the same result at a cheaper price.
I disagree, never sell yourself short, you either wanna do it, or you don't, stop making excuses. Simp
the Common Man sees this "Problem" - drill hole with cuirclar bit and proceeds to access tensioner bolt. - SOLVED -
As a diesel mechanic, I would’ve just made another hole and then went find the entering department and Ugga dugga a new hole in their office door.
Three things that changed my life, wobbles, swivels, and ratcheting wrenches.
Thank you, was saying that this whole video 😂
theres less than an inch clearance to put those attachments on and TORQUE it in a small area. this is not smart and doesn’t convince any one human or otherwise that we are smart
Doesn't change the fact it's a ridiculous design choice
@@regiscidal9078 pretty sure all Torque spec's are just, so tight you cant turn it by hand and 3 taps with a hammer. Of course the factory wouldn't tell you.
The fact that this guy doesn't have one makes me think not too highly of him.. Drop the engine down?!? Are you kidding me? 🤣
As a software engineer, I can confidently say it was because we have never once spoken to the mechanical engineers that sit about 60 feet away from us.
That’s sad and frustrating
This sadly the case in many projects.😢
Youre not an engineer, youre a software developer.
@@zbou23there are programmers and there are software engineers. They are not the same
@@zbou23as an engineer, it's because they probably aren't even on the same continent as each other and one part was designed for a completely different car.
People forget that cars are designed to be hard to work on
My Grand Prix GXP is the same damn way man. Had to take it to the shop to get my tensioner off as well. Felt so defeated. I really didn't want to have to drop my motor.
Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.
Ooo love this. This solves about 99% of conspiracy theories too.
Suuure, a grease monkey vs someone who is actually educated, it's definitely not malice 🤡
@@drflannelxd904 I don't think engineers set out to create difficulty on purpose. Through thousands of design decisions things get overlooked or compromises are made due to timelines and budgets.
That said, I think there's business reasoning that repairs that require more labor and skills result in higher revenues for dealerships... So, perhaps they don't lose sleep when things like this arise?
@@drflannelxd904ok buddy
@@gunsite4575% really because at this point conspiracy theories are news in a few months. Like whenever a "conspiracy theory" about covid came out. 4-6 months later it was fact all a sudden.
Engineer definitely identified the issue in the design process. Told lead engineer of the issue. Was told to come up with a solution. They did so. Bean counter then came in and said make it even cheaper. The end
The cheaper solution is not putting an access hole in at all...
True story. I had a co-worker who called tech support, waited online for 20 minutes. Told the guy that came on, " I don't need any help, I got it fixed. I just want you to look up the engineer and punch him in the throat for me. " We've all thought that. But he's the only guy I knew that waited 20 minutes just to say it.😅
Most engineering descriptions of an engine is based upon a complete disassembly, even down to constituent parts of items you don't need to take apart. It's not that the engineers hate you, it's that you don't work their way.
As a mechanic, it is on my bucket list to slap an engineer
Do you take suggestions?
They hit back
@@dingbop963Sorry CAD program doesn't work for that.
Slapping engineers will result in access holes being moved sideways from that point on. Not only will we make you drop the engine, we'll force you to tilt it as well.
@@0cypher0 Then engineers will continue to be slapped. In fact, engineer family members will start being slapped at that point. 😂😂😂
As a maintenance tech, i approve this message.
You pretty much got it. Budget allows for a certain amount of labor, then the head of the dept says "send the cost to maintenance" because they're only really worried about their bonus, they might not even be there next year.
As a machinist, I absolutely agree. I think engineers just hate techs and trades workers
@@lslslslslslslsl1 No one hates you.
@@lslslslslslslsl1 ya no shit right?
Need an Automotive Industry that focuses on Easy access for Mechanics again.
Bro need a box with a wobble drive in it🤯💀
"Just pissing on us without the courtesy of calling it rain"
Thats what you get when everything is built in third world countries. America doesnt make a thing anymore for themselves, do they.
Yep they don't give a shit. As long as their robot arms can assemble it in the first place, that's all they care about.
From what i know its mostly the ceos and stockholders who make this happen. The workers and designers would rather it work as intended and make something good.
Accountants and managers have more influence in the decision making than the engineers. I always try to k.i.s.s. but if someone says otherwise with more clout I can do shit about it
@@fabriglasexactly, the biggest issue is the finance department, all they care about it profits and they fuck the design team over
No, the people at the top WANT it to be as hard as possible to repair the cars, so all the dealer specfic tools are needed to fix your car.
They want them to be as hard to repair as cell phones
As an engineer from Germany... Jup.. That's a damn good reason to do stuff 😂
As someone who couldn’t do what mechanics OR engineers are capable of, I have no opinion on this matter, hope you work it out, and salute you both.
The engineer who designed that engine never imagined 15 years later they'd still be using it and cramming it into a different car. So, blame the bean counters.
I understand the frustration...usually there's a few cuss words and a busted knuckle before I just drill another hole and then ask myself why the hell didn't I do that to begin with.
As an engineer: Don't just drill holes into the body of a car... We do a lot of computer modeling to end up at the exact shape a car body is... Drilling random holes into a cars messes with that a lot. :(
@@RoonMianWell then put the damn access hole in the right place and we won't have to.
@@RoonMian So you being an engineer, answer me this then. Why is is that you people make shit so hard to work on without special tools or having to pay someone a ridiculous amount of money to fix a problem that would otherwise be an easy fix.
@@jeramypompabecause they want you to have to pay someone big money to fix it.
@@jeramypompa
You figure it out. They don't want you fixing it. They want you to go broke, paying a dealer shop and/or buying an overpriced one time tool, and/or buy a brand new even bigger piece of junk. Planned obsolescence.
Having worked as a machinist for awhile, ill admit I thoroughly enjoyed being the middle-man in the war between mechanics and engineers.
It's not engineers, it's the supervisors that want it a certain way. Quantity over quality
As a engineer and a mechanic I take pride in all my work and making sure it's able to be worked on with minimal effort.
I of the mind that if you are a engineer working on a product while in design and prototype phase you should be going over every component to make sure everything meshes with everything else and is easy to access.
But company's don't want reliable custom original cars that work they want cars that have to be fixed or just plain replaced and nothing is built to last or be truly fixed anymore. Not by the average person.
I think most of these kinds of things happen because it's different engineers working on different subsystems of the car at the same time and they never communicate between eachother very much. And they are engineered to be cheap and easy to assemble at the factory.
No, because when they put their schematics and blueprint’s together, they see shit like that. They know what they’re doing
@@HellcatGaminif you were banging your best friends mom and you were banging his mom aswell, would one of you find out?
@@HellcatGamin you do know there are more than 1000 people that are involved in designing, and developing cars. So no it is not intentional just managed poorly
There are actually mechanics that prove the ability to service. It's a requirement to pass this tollgate. There is a procedure you are paid to do, so use it..
I loved how Audi did this on the older models. you get your audi tool for the job, fit it on the front, and then you can take the whole front of the car and drag it out, giving you plenty of room to work on the front of the engine.
Thats what happens when you give 30 people access to a cad file and you have a huge pile of notes that you cant get through and you don't let the first shift polish the design on top of a huge time crunch, engineers didn't do anything on purpose
Bean counters run the show now. It's all arsebackwards.
Ok thats fair on an engine, but when you have to disassemble a whole door for a fuckin door handle. Only like five things in a car door, why they all gotta cover the one torx bit that needs to come off to switch the handle.
On second thought, the fact cars use torx bits is proof engineers do this shit on purpose. I have the same hex socket set, flat head, and Phillips head bits from when i started years ago, any torxbits i use regularly are max 8 months before they sheer, and the bolts strip more often.
It's immaterial that you need to replace a torx bit slightly more often if it speeds up automated mass production and leads type a more consistent torque.
Let's do it the dumbest way possible because it's easiest for you mentality. The cost of putting one straight blade screw on there just so you can have a slightly easier time is in the realm of tens of thousands of dollars minimum.
Guys, you don't understand, it's not the engineers fault, its the fact that the project manager isn't an engineer so they don't care that the car isn't done.
I highly recommend for those torx bolts to get a set of grip edge torx bit sockets. I’ve stripped those out with regular ones before and when I bought my set of grip edges, haven’t had an issue since. Highly highly recommended
Never knew these existed. Thanks.
The real problem is cars break in just like houses that hole has moved overtime 😂
Every engineer needs to work on what they make for a year!
Heck yes.
Agreed
When me and my colleagues engineered the 2020 Sentra we had to
In my company the engineer had to be on the shop floor when their design was being assembled. No hiding from their fuck ups.
As a computer engineer, I completely agree any engineer worth their salt should be able to put together and take apart the thing they design before presenting it as a possible solution ask by the company.
I honestly think these companies are doing it on purpose the same way they're purposefully doing it with technology, phones in particular, with the idea being the harder they make it to fix your own stuff, the more likely you are to pay them to fix it for you like at a dealership.
In a few years, you won't be able to change brakes! Some buick/chevy crossovers if you disconnect the battery.. the dealer has to flash the memory! $$$$$$$$$
I’ve been repairing phones for about 10 years. It’s way easier now than 10 years ago, and parts are easier to get. Heck, now you can even find a high res video explaining how to replace surface mounted components.
The goal is to get you to buy a new one
The corporation doesn't care if its serviced at the dealership. They only care that their proprietary parts and software get used.
See my reply, nah this stuff is incompetence.
This is a bean counter issue. They tell the engineers to make assembly the cheapest as possible. Also, make it so you need to go to the dealership for the special tools.
They don’t hate you. They just want the service to cost more labor hours for higher profits.
I got an answer for that! In one of the revisions, the bolt was lined up with the access hole. One thing lead to another, and they had to move the tensioner bolt, but forgot to move the access hole before the plans got approved and sent off for production. This happens a lot when you run into unexpected issues and have deadlines to meet.
What an awful way to design cars
@@UN4SS1GN3Dnot really. It’s extremely unrealistic to have to do a redesign and then recheck every single part and potential access port affected before resending. It’s still a shitty mistake to make, but that’s how iterative designing works
@@UN4SS1GN3DCorrect.
@@UN4SS1GN3D Management says we're spending too many hours on design rework.
Welcome to capitalism and its shareholders requiring their short-term quarterly profits at any cost, and thus forcing the workers of the companies they're investing in to work quickly and release even quicklier, disregarding any issues that don't directly lead to major failure.
Engineer here my man....mistakes and oversights happen (usually at later stages of design due something that's not relevant at that time). We call these lessons learned. They usually get fixed in later generations of a current model. This is why you're better of buying the last model of a given shape (usually 3 to 4 yrs in) before a complete redesigned model is introduced in the market. I promise it has nothing to do with hating you. In fact, on day one of my first job, my manager told me the best way to learn how to design something better is by watching the people that have to handel and use them. That's you.
Imagine, engineers are people too and mistakes are made everywhere. Also sometimes a multitude of unfortunate things come together to create a problem.
For every mistake you do alot of workers wanna end it all over and over again
Yeah yeah. You guys make mistakes and we're all human blah blah. Engineers don't have to deal with their own mistakes though.
Me, not listening and just making a new hole because the engineers an asshole
Mistakes are easier to track in the later stage of design, the regular occurrence is a sign of a lack of effort altogether.
My gas Samsung oven died because engineers didn’t glue a pennys worth of metal to the chipset that controls the oven.
What do ovens do? What do chips hate? The anecdotal evidence is stacking up that y’all are designing things to be thrown away. Plain and simple
As my mechanic stated, car companies hired NASA rocket scientists to design the car to make it difficult for mechanics to work on.
I was woking on design of locking system on some van. It shared the ground wire for locking motor and locking sensor, and used the same wireing form a car. It being a van, it had more powerful locking motors, so higher current caused locking sensors to glitch, sometimes. But we were notmallowed to chage the wireing. So we had to engineer our way around the problem by ignoring sensor signal for 1s.
I hated my job so much.
Because an engineer made something beautiful and then 27 different management meetings, commitees and a budget discussion ruined it
As a factory worker who deals with some really silly engineering issues day in and day out… I feel ya
No u don’t… one thing to build it… another thing to fix it with rusted bolts and car parts that falling apart or rusted beyond 😂… I take your job building it brand new
@@shawnmuluka ... I understand him
I don’t think engineers hate you, it’s more of a joke…
It’s more of “Have fun repairing this engine”.
Cause like, how long/much do you think engineers have studied. How much math and physics they have to learn. You get really tired of it, it’s only logical/fun to fuck with the people down the line.
Because we are not in school anymore. We don't get graded on making it easier to fix. Sad, but true.