I have an original Amarok CD (can't remember from when, but it is an old pressing). Even on that the changes in volume are quite dramatic. I still remember the first time I listened to it I turned up the volume a bit during the softer passage, you can guess what came next... 😁.
Sadly, so much music is compressed. Radio music broadcasts are often compressed, so the music stays at the same volume so it can be audible in a workplace. As you mentioned - the "Loudness Wars" were/are a big problem.
Based on the CDs in my collection, the Loudness War began with regards to certain releases from about 1989 in the US and about 1991 in the UK and Europe, but it became a lot more widespread and applied to most new releases from about 1994 and has become gradually worse since.
@@audioarkitekts That's nothing new. Those wars began at least as early as Motown, where knuckleheads Berry Gordy and engineer Reggie Dozier ruined many of my favorite recordings either by over compressing the whole recording or cranking up the record and/or mic gain to deliberately clip the inputs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
@@gourlishvideos In greek original cd masters with music from fifties til 90s, i mean cds in Greece have started released from 1987 and included oldies, sound was so crystal clear. Loudness had started increasing in Greek albums after 1999. In the most of 00s greek albums peaks are cut at waveform and the common standards are from -10 to -8 LUFS and True Peak around 0.5 to 0.8. Nowadays loudness has been increased dramatically, many songs have True Peak over +2 or +3 and loudness from -8 to -6LUFS in Greek pop laiko music. The bad thing is that basses and kick drums have increased extremely in Greek new music because they follow the templates of Taylor Swift or Billie Eilish. And they lack of high end and lack of dynamics. But there are many artists that have True Peak 0.6 and -10 LUFS and sound clearly.
@@audioarkitekts Also greek album re-releases from 70s, 80s, 90s, generally oldies, that re-released after 2005, have extreme loudness, dull bass, hard kick drums and distort, vocals sound grunged, they lack of high end and they are squashed. I prefer first editions from greek cds that sound is crystal clear.
I have the original Tres Hombres album by ZZ top on vinyl. I got it back in 1973, 50 years ago. I love the sound of that vinyl album. I made the mistake of getting the remastered CD and it sounds to me like all they did was raise the volume. I don't particularly care for the remastered CD. When I am suspicious of a CD what I do is rip the CD to WAV and then look at the WAV files in an app called Wavelab. I have come across CDs where the WAV files stretch from top to bottom and some even have clipping. Not how I prefer my music to be. I saw another youtube video a couple years back where the youtuber addressed this and he refuses to buy remastered CDs. Clearly sometimes remastering is not all it is cracked up to be. Thanks for the video, Mike!
I haven't got a Tres Hombres CD but have the original CD of Deguello (ZZ Top's last "old era" album) and it sounds pretty good and scores DR14 (the average new digital release today scores just DR4-6). I think the original Deguello CD was mastered in the mid 1980s from what I can find.
@nicksterj yes but you don't want to obliterate the dynamic range. Raising the lows to be closer to the highs kills dynamic range. Sure, it's louder but is it better? Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree knows how to remaster. I have his Close To The Edge (Yes) remaster and it's really good. For me a remaster doesn't have to slap you in the face. I'm no engineer but I like to think I know a little something.
Amen Carmine, I'm with you, love Hans's music and Gladiator is still my favorite after so many years. Have you tried any music by Max Richter? I highly recommend it, my personal favorites are Mary Queen of Scots, My brilliant friend and Ad Astra. Plus, all Max's recordings are first rate and sound top notch 👍 All the best
Another VERY IMPORTANT TIP: Modern vinyl always uses the same mix than modern cds or downloads, so in order to choose some vinyl pressing take a very closer look at the differences between MIN DR, MAX DR and DR itself, because vinyl always have 3 or 4 db less than cds, they have to lower the volume of the same mix to fit on vinyl grooves That doesn't mean a better dynamic range on Vinyl, it just a lower general volume
New vinyls have the same mastering with compact discs and digital platforms, they lack of dynamics and they have hard bass so dull and hard kick drums that distort awfully, also lack of high frequencies. One friend of mine is maniac with Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish and gives much money to buy all editions, he has also expensive turntable. These vinyls sound so dull and distorted with extreme loudness and lack of high frequencies, lack of dynamics, also maybe their mix is so squashed. Older 80s and 90s international and greek compact discs he owns, sound so crystal clear with perfect quality. From remastered vinyls, only vinyls of Michael Jackson that he owns sound perfect. The other remastered albums he have, sound so squashed. Comparing some remastered editions with original, the remastered have more dull bass and harder kick drums.
HDR as a term is such a lost opportunity for the music industry as the general public have a somewhat awareness thank to 4k tvs. "If" studios were to offer High-Resolution audio with HDR as a separate mix. Perhaps high res audio would be a bigger hit. Just like video. It's not the number of pixels it's the quality of them. The average Joe would no doubt spot a wide dynamic rage mix at even Spotify 320kbs. far more than if it was a loudness war victim track that's played back at 24 bit - 192khz Dynamic range is the colour pallet of the music
Uh, I feel the need to offer some clarity here to help some folks understand a bit better. Don't confuse Dynamic Range (DR) with what you hear from your recordings. DR is more a reference to audio data and detail than volume. Just because there is more room for data on a CD than a vinyl record doesn't mean that one will be louder or distorted or what have you. It depends on the recording and mastering. It just means the range of frequencies that can be stored on the medium, which does provide more detail in listening. That said, it should also be noted that the Loudness Wars were a crime against music and humanity, but has only a little to do with DR. The Loudness Wars are not a recent phenomenon, they actually started in the late 1970s with vinyl. It originates in the mastering of the recording. Now, due to the limited DR of the vinyl medium they could only go so far, but still ruin the recording for the record because it was easier to exceed the range. With CD it did get worse because of the DR range a CD can hold. Almost no band or artist was immune to the wild whims of some producers or engineers (controlled by producers). So the DR website, while interesting is not that useful. Like I said, just because some CD rates a DR of some high number doesn't automatically mean there is a problem if it is in the range of what a format can handle. It doesn't automatically mean that the recording or mastering was too hot. It is like wattage ratings on amps or receivers or what have you that many a manufacture like to play with. They give the DR on the amp and say that it is 120 watts per channel, but that is not constant, (if it was, there would be many places burning down or something). The part they do not mention is that the 120 watts in this example is Peak Watts and the DR rating is Peak Dynamic Range. In other words, it tells one what the amp or whatever can handle without distortion. At the end of the day it is only our ears that can determine sound quality, distortion, loudness, etc. So the DR website really doesn't help much and the software is not worth the cost because there is nothing one can do to fix an errant CD, vinyl record or recording. If there is distortion in the recording, you can't remaster it yourself to fix it. One should also not let such things as the DR website determine what music you want to buy or listen to. Again, that is a job for your ears and any homework you may have done on the album or what have you.
I agree that our ears should be the determiners of what we enjoy. Your explanations are a bit confusing, though. The issue is not that the dynamic range (difference between loudest & softest sounds in a recording) is exceeded therefore causing distortion ("too hot"). The issue is that the dynamic range in many recordings is not exploited. In other words, there could be dramatic shifts between loud & quiet but they have been minimized to the point where the sounds are close to the same level which loses some of the drama of the recording. The result being that everything is loud (though not loud enough to distort) & lacking dynamics. The textbook example of overuse of compression can be heard on the 2nd album from Chicago. The compression was applied during the mixdown to stereo in that case & remastering cannot fix it. (The quadriphonic version of the album has a much wider dynamic range.)
This is an interesting conversation. Obviously, I didn't dig too deep into the science and theory of the subject because most folks probably don't consider this an exhilarating topic. However, I do find a lot of value from the DR Database and feel it can be used as a reference for many use cases. At the end of the day, you're absolutely right. Our ears will subjectively decide whether a piece of music sounds pleasant or not. However, it's nice to know there is science behind the recordings to explain why certain mastering sound the way they do.
@@patbarr1351 Sorry for the confusion, perhaps I did not go into enough detail. For example, I did not get into compression and should have, which is a large part of the issue, so thank you for mentioning that! I think that is where Mike was a bit confused as well and that is what I was trying to get clarity to. Compression allows one to exceed the dynamic range of the medium which of course results in distortion via the compression. So not only were the loudness wars the umbrella term for the problem, but it is really compression. Chicago (early Chicago) happens to be one of my favorite bands (they were crazy almost progressive rock back then). I have original pressings of their discography up to the point they went corporate and ditched music. Are you talking about the "remastered & repackaged" CD version? What about the Steve Wilson version, have you heard that? I am curious about it. I don't have either of those CD versions or any of their albums on store-bought CD, so I can't speak to them. (I do have redbook CD versions I made myself because finding original pressings of early Chicago LPs in relative good condition is not easy and I want to preserve the ones I have). I'll listen to the original pressing I have on vinyl of the 2nd Chicago LP and compare to say the first or third LP to satisfy my curiosity. Remastering can fix the problem "if" done from the master tapes prior to mixdown. You are correct, nothing can be fixed after mixdown. One example of this is Rush's Vapor Trails LP. The first release was horrific! There is a long backstory of how that came about, but being the class act they were (seriously), they made it right by going back and taking the master tapes (or files if you will) and remastering/remixing to fix everything. Then they offered a voucher to all who purchased the first run to get the replacement for free provided one had the receipt. (I bought it from Amazon so it was easy for me to get the replacement).
In the 1960s, engineers were sometimes told to make their recordings "Motown loud." The label was notorious for cranking the loudness so they'd get more play from jukeboxes.
@@OWEN-CASH I don't know, I can't buy into partial data and leave it there. I need all the data to make a determination. I will have to respectfully disagree about my DR and amp analogy. I don't think my analogy of DR to amps is inaccurate at all. It is the same theory with the only difference being compression. I do suppose though that I think in terms of theoretical physics (I did study that for a time). I can see were some folks may get a bit confused. I suppose that plus having some experience in sound engineering and such makes it worse. I suppose the DR website can give one a very general visual of the difference between masterings, but it doesn't tell enough of the story and I just feel it should not be relied on as gospel instead of our ears. It is like relying on any audio reviewer solely for one's decision of what to buy or what to like or dislike.
Mike Oldfield's Amarok in the HDCD-format is my suggestion for some GREAT dynamics.
I have an original Amarok CD (can't remember from when, but it is an old pressing). Even on that the changes in volume are quite dramatic. I still remember the first time I listened to it I turned up the volume a bit during the softer passage, you can guess what came next... 😁.
Sadly, so much music is compressed. Radio music broadcasts are often compressed, so the music stays at the same volume so it can be audible in a workplace.
As you mentioned - the "Loudness Wars" were/are a big problem.
Loudness Wars ruined the late 90s and early 2000s
Based on the CDs in my collection, the Loudness War began with regards to certain releases from about 1989 in the US and about 1991 in the UK and Europe, but it became a lot more widespread and applied to most new releases from about 1994 and has become gradually worse since.
@@audioarkitekts That's nothing new. Those wars began at least as early as Motown, where knuckleheads Berry Gordy and engineer Reggie Dozier ruined many of my favorite recordings either by over compressing the whole recording or cranking up the record and/or mic gain to deliberately clip the inputs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
@@gourlishvideos In greek original cd masters with music from fifties til 90s, i mean cds in Greece have started released from 1987 and included oldies, sound was so crystal clear. Loudness had started increasing in Greek albums after 1999. In the most of 00s greek albums peaks are cut at waveform and the common standards are from -10 to -8 LUFS and True Peak around 0.5 to 0.8. Nowadays loudness has been increased dramatically, many songs have True Peak over +2 or +3 and loudness from -8 to -6LUFS in Greek pop laiko music. The bad thing is that basses and kick drums have increased extremely in Greek new music because they follow the templates of Taylor Swift or Billie Eilish. And they lack of high end and lack of dynamics.
But there are many artists that have True Peak 0.6 and -10 LUFS and sound clearly.
@@audioarkitekts Also greek album re-releases from 70s, 80s, 90s, generally oldies, that re-released after 2005, have extreme loudness, dull bass, hard kick drums and distort, vocals sound grunged, they lack of high end and they are squashed. I prefer first editions from greek cds that sound is crystal clear.
Any recommendations for windows software to compare cd audio range?
Fwiw, Roon will show you the DR of your ripped CD's
Roon absolutely has this feature as well. Which is super awesome and yet another cool feature within the Roon platform!
I have the original Tres Hombres album by ZZ top on vinyl. I got it back in 1973, 50 years ago. I love the sound of that vinyl album. I made the mistake of getting the remastered CD and it sounds to me like all they did was raise the volume. I don't particularly care for the remastered CD. When I am suspicious of a CD what I do is rip the CD to WAV and then look at the WAV files in an app called Wavelab. I have come across CDs where the WAV files stretch from top to bottom and some even have clipping. Not how I prefer my music to be. I saw another youtube video a couple years back where the youtuber addressed this and he refuses to buy remastered CDs. Clearly sometimes remastering is not all it is cracked up to be. Thanks for the video, Mike!
I haven't got a Tres Hombres CD but have the original CD of Deguello (ZZ Top's last "old era" album) and it sounds pretty good and scores DR14 (the average new digital release today scores just DR4-6). I think the original Deguello CD was mastered in the mid 1980s from what I can find.
@@gourlishvideos Steven Wilson does a good job on his remasters. Rush's Hemispheres album is a good remaster. I just pick my spots these days
@nicksterj yes but you don't want to obliterate the dynamic range. Raising the lows to be closer to the highs kills dynamic range. Sure, it's louder but is it better? Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree knows how to remaster. I have his Close To The Edge (Yes) remaster and it's really good. For me a remaster doesn't have to slap you in the face. I'm no engineer but I like to think I know a little something.
Anything by Hans Zimmer 🫨
Amen Carmine, I'm with you, love Hans's music and Gladiator is still my favorite after so many years. Have you tried any music by Max Richter? I highly recommend it, my personal favorites are Mary Queen of Scots, My brilliant friend and Ad Astra. Plus, all Max's recordings are first rate and sound top notch 👍 All the best
Nice angle on this!
Anything till 1994 sounds acceptable, after 1995 we have to use that page
All hail the loudness wars, I'm kidding. The music industry needs to reverse this and let the music breath.
Agreed 👍
The MAAT DR software is FREE in Foobar 2000 music player so no need to spend $100+
Another VERY IMPORTANT TIP: Modern vinyl always uses the same mix than modern cds or downloads, so in order to choose some vinyl pressing take a very closer look at the differences between MIN DR, MAX DR and DR itself, because vinyl always have 3 or 4 db less than cds, they have to lower the volume of the same mix to fit on vinyl grooves
That doesn't mean a better dynamic range on Vinyl, it just a lower general volume
New vinyls have the same mastering with compact discs and digital platforms, they lack of dynamics and they have hard bass so dull and hard kick drums that distort awfully, also lack of high frequencies. One friend of mine is maniac with Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish and gives much money to buy all editions, he has also expensive turntable. These vinyls sound so dull and distorted with extreme loudness and lack of high frequencies, lack of dynamics, also maybe their mix is so squashed. Older 80s and 90s international and greek compact discs he owns, sound so crystal clear with perfect quality. From remastered vinyls, only vinyls of Michael Jackson that he owns sound perfect. The other remastered albums he have, sound so squashed. Comparing some remastered editions with original, the remastered have more dull bass and harder kick drums.
HDR as a term is such a lost opportunity for the music industry as the general public have a somewhat awareness thank to 4k tvs.
"If" studios were to offer High-Resolution audio with HDR as a separate mix. Perhaps high res audio would be a bigger hit.
Just like video. It's not the number of pixels it's the quality of them.
The average Joe would no doubt spot a wide dynamic rage mix at even Spotify 320kbs. far more than if it was a loudness war victim track that's played back at 24 bit - 192khz
Dynamic range is the colour pallet of the music
Just call out the Death Magnetic album already
That was just one, in an ocean of garbage lol 😆
Uh, I feel the need to offer some clarity here to help some folks understand a bit better. Don't confuse Dynamic Range (DR) with what you hear from your recordings. DR is more a reference to audio data and detail than volume. Just because there is more room for data on a CD than a vinyl record doesn't mean that one will be louder or distorted or what have you. It depends on the recording and mastering. It just means the range of frequencies that can be stored on the medium, which does provide more detail in listening.
That said, it should also be noted that the Loudness Wars were a crime against music and humanity, but has only a little to do with DR. The Loudness Wars are not a recent phenomenon, they actually started in the late 1970s with vinyl. It originates in the mastering of the recording. Now, due to the limited DR of the vinyl medium they could only go so far, but still ruin the recording for the record because it was easier to exceed the range. With CD it did get worse because of the DR range a CD can hold. Almost no band or artist was immune to the wild whims of some producers or engineers (controlled by producers).
So the DR website, while interesting is not that useful. Like I said, just because some CD rates a DR of some high number doesn't automatically mean there is a problem if it is in the range of what a format can handle. It doesn't automatically mean that the recording or mastering was too hot. It is like wattage ratings on amps or receivers or what have you that many a manufacture like to play with. They give the DR on the amp and say that it is 120 watts per channel, but that is not constant, (if it was, there would be many places burning down or something). The part they do not mention is that the 120 watts in this example is Peak Watts and the DR rating is Peak Dynamic Range. In other words, it tells one what the amp or whatever can handle without distortion.
At the end of the day it is only our ears that can determine sound quality, distortion, loudness, etc. So the DR website really doesn't help much and the software is not worth the cost because there is nothing one can do to fix an errant CD, vinyl record or recording. If there is distortion in the recording, you can't remaster it yourself to fix it. One should also not let such things as the DR website determine what music you want to buy or listen to. Again, that is a job for your ears and any homework you may have done on the album or what have you.
I agree that our ears should be the determiners of what we enjoy. Your explanations are a bit confusing, though. The issue is not that the dynamic range (difference between loudest & softest sounds in a recording) is exceeded therefore causing distortion ("too hot"). The issue is that the dynamic range in many recordings is not exploited. In other words, there could be dramatic shifts between loud & quiet but they have been minimized to the point where the sounds are close to the same level which loses some of the drama of the recording. The result being that everything is loud (though not loud enough to distort) & lacking dynamics.
The textbook example of overuse of compression can be heard on the 2nd album from Chicago. The compression was applied during the mixdown to stereo in that case & remastering cannot fix it. (The quadriphonic version of the album has a much wider dynamic range.)
This is an interesting conversation. Obviously, I didn't dig too deep into the science and theory of the subject because most folks probably don't consider this an exhilarating topic. However, I do find a lot of value from the DR Database and feel it can be used as a reference for many use cases. At the end of the day, you're absolutely right. Our ears will subjectively decide whether a piece of music sounds pleasant or not. However, it's nice to know there is science behind the recordings to explain why certain mastering sound the way they do.
@@patbarr1351 Sorry for the confusion, perhaps I did not go into enough detail. For example, I did not get into compression and should have, which is a large part of the issue, so thank you for mentioning that! I think that is where Mike was a bit confused as well and that is what I was trying to get clarity to. Compression allows one to exceed the dynamic range of the medium which of course results in distortion via the compression. So not only were the loudness wars the umbrella term for the problem, but it is really compression.
Chicago (early Chicago) happens to be one of my favorite bands (they were crazy almost progressive rock back then). I have original pressings of their discography up to the point they went corporate and ditched music.
Are you talking about the "remastered & repackaged" CD version? What about the Steve Wilson version, have you heard that? I am curious about it. I don't have either of those CD versions or any of their albums on store-bought CD, so I can't speak to them. (I do have redbook CD versions I made myself because finding original pressings of early Chicago LPs in relative good condition is not easy and I want to preserve the ones I have).
I'll listen to the original pressing I have on vinyl of the 2nd Chicago LP and compare to say the first or third LP to satisfy my curiosity.
Remastering can fix the problem "if" done from the master tapes prior to mixdown. You are correct, nothing can be fixed after mixdown.
One example of this is Rush's Vapor Trails LP. The first release was horrific! There is a long backstory of how that came about, but being the class act they were (seriously), they made it right by going back and taking the master tapes (or files if you will) and remastering/remixing to fix everything. Then they offered a voucher to all who purchased the first run to get the replacement for free provided one had the receipt. (I bought it from Amazon so it was easy for me to get the replacement).
In the 1960s, engineers were sometimes told to make their recordings "Motown loud." The label was notorious for cranking the loudness so they'd get more play from jukeboxes.
@@OWEN-CASH I don't know, I can't buy into partial data and leave it there. I need all the data to make a determination. I will have to respectfully disagree about my DR and amp analogy. I don't think my analogy of DR to amps is inaccurate at all. It is the same theory with the only difference being compression. I do suppose though that I think in terms of theoretical physics (I did study that for a time). I can see were some folks may get a bit confused. I suppose that plus having some experience in sound engineering and such makes it worse.
I suppose the DR website can give one a very general visual of the difference between masterings, but it doesn't tell enough of the story and I just feel it should not be relied on as gospel instead of our ears. It is like relying on any audio reviewer solely for one's decision of what to buy or what to like or dislike.
For what it's worth NPR had a story about the loudness wars last week and how it's ruined the way music should sound.
I did an entire video about it a few months ago 😉