Honestly i just think square enix is trying to fit a triangle in a square hole with Ishimoto. The orchestrated work in KH series seems to be a challenge for him but his works with rock and hip-hop like in Final Fantasy 7 crisis core and The world ends with you are memorable classics
This for sure. Clearly, his fanbase responds most positively when he can sample his way through a soundtrack, like he's done for all his non-orchestrated game projects. I think he really would find so much more success if he were able (or allowed) to do that hip-hop construction kit stuff for all the games he works on--or otherwise, not be assigned tracks that are outside his wheelhouse. Musicians have specialties, and it's really not fair to him--or the players--for these game producers to expect proficiency in all genres and styles of musicmaking.
man, that's such a shame. I always heard people bashing Ishimoto's work in this game but I liked his stuff in Type-0 and TWEWY. I didn't get why he got so much hate. listening to this tho, it reminds me of some of the errors I used to make messing around in GarabeBand when I was in middle school 💀 (specifically with leaving random cymbals and misaligning the strings since you always gotta remember they're a bit behind if you leave them by default on the midi)
He did the music for type-0? Cool, didn’t know that. I myself like his work in Twewy and BBS too, but I do agree that by kh3 he wasn’t hitting nearly as hard. I also do recognize that both BBS and Twewy have plenty of music that wasn’t composed by him, though idk if that’s the case for Type-0
i think for many people who dont pay too much attention to the tiny stuff in music like myself its one of those tracks that are just whatever but for people who know all the ins and outs of musics it drives them nuts
I think this is an interesting take! I think it's cool to deep dive into the music of KH! There are a few things I disagree with here. 1. The double cymbal crash they used is an effect. Before the crashes, the snare and bass drum were playing together. After the crashes, the snare rests and the bass drum plays on. The crashes are a segway into this. It signals the slight change in percussion. This sounds very intentional. 2. The low strings playing with the piano sounds stylistic imo. Intitially, the low strings play a syncopated rhythm, then change to a straight time rhythm which sounds like 3 quarter notes and 2 eighth notes at the end. The piano does it's own thing while the low strings keep the drive going (at a reduced volume). 3. The clashing key signatures again sounds stylistic and intentional. The composer is using Chromatic Harmony. This is when they use notes outside the key signature (also called accidentals) to create a chord. Naturally, Chromatic Harmony sounds unpleasant to the ear when played by itself and no melodies or other harmonies to back them up. However, the way it's used here is to create tension. There is the main melody and there is the underlying tension behind it. 4. The "random" symbol crash is used in a couple way. One - to signify the start of another 4 or 8 bar phrase. Two - It helps break up the repetitive nature of the piece. 5. While dynamically, the piece stays at one volume, I have to disagree with the mixing. The majority of this piece is in unison (all instruments playing the same thing). All the instruments sound balanced volume-wise, nothing sounds particularly quiet or loud imo. 6. If the music was purposely made for a cutscene as this piece is, then it's allowed to be repetetive. Composers do this all the time for video games or movies. Every 4 or 8 bars there is something different happening whether it's the cymbal crash, other percussion going quiet or joining other percussion, the brass playing their little montage, or the strings playing their chromatic triplet run. 7. Instruments playing slightly before or after the beat is quite common in music. I think it works fine for this application.
Neat, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I always appreciate hearing musical KH opinions In concept, I'm all for experimenting with unexpected harmonies and building tension through odd rhythms, but I just have a really hard time believing any of this is intentional in "Dual Hearts". Maybe it's because Ishimoto's other tracks also share a lot of the synthesizer habits, but it comes across to me as passing off a rushed and underdeveloped arrangement under the guise of thematic parallels and mood-building. The fact that Ishimoto felt the need to make so many alterations in the OST version also makes me doubt the carefulness of the original composition. And remember, an entire third of his KH3 songs don't loop correctly (7 out of 21, and that total's including four songs that don't have loop points to begin with), so forgive me if I doubt the attentiveness and polish he puts into his arrangements. Even in his non-cutscene music, Ishimoto loops the same four-to-six note melody for dozens of measures on end: take "Keyblade Cycle", "The Flick Finalist", or "Digital Domination", for instance. Looping something in a cutscene isn't inherently bad - the unnamed "Battle of the Guardians" I used in the outro is basically just four notes (based on Ishimoto's "Replicas"), but I consider it a gorgeous composition - yet I find that the differences between repetitions in "Dual Hearts" fail to keep the piece moving forward and just makes me mentally add it to the "Ishimoto loops stuff again" pile. Maybe that's a bit reductive, but his songs are the only ones for which I consider this an issue For nearly everything I have a problem with, I could come up with an theoretical explanation as to why it might be a conscious stylistic decision; if that's the case, then I maintain that it is a poor decision, if not for the sake of my ears then for how it fails to meet the standards of the other KH3 cutscene tracks.
Dude. You just hit the nail on the head on why I do not particularly enjoy most of Ishimoto’s music for KH. I just don’t think his style meshes well with Kingdom Hearts as a whole, not just with Dual Hearts. His harsh-sounding MIDI instruments and lack of mixing just does not sound pleasing to me. For me personally, it’s why Dark Domination is one of _my_ least favorite songs in the series. The violin synths are so screechy and monotone at points that it just sounds…ehhhhh… It’s not helped at all by the fact it’s supposed to be THE FINAL BOSS THEME. THE GRAND FINALE OF THE XEHANORT SAGA, and it’s just…not that good. Yoko should have been the one to compose it, especially given the fact she made Forza Finale, which works WAY better as a final boss theme, and it’s not even for the final boss!
As much as I love KH3, I will never get over the fact that Yoko did not get to compose the final boss theme. She would have done it so much more justice.
I totally forgot that the album release made changes to the music that differed from how they appeared in the game. I feel like that probably influences the way people listen to and feel about Ishimoto’s KH3 work, as that’s what people are most likely listening to over the direct game rips. A lot of these lacking details definitely require at least some understanding of music and music theory to pick up, and as somebody who has none of that, even after taking all of this analysis in, the song still doesn’t rub me in any wrong way, despite me definitely being more aware of things like the repetition. Still, I absolutely love this breakdown, and I appreciate how accessible it is to people who may not know much about musical theory. Also for some reason, playing all those examples of Ishimoto’s single note outros back to back made me truly realize just how identical the melodies of nearly all of those battle themes sound lmao. No wonder I thought a lot of KH3’s soundtrack was same-y 😭
Totally agree with the album thing - sometimes I go back and listen to the in-game versions and it feels so strange. Like, in "Replicas", Ishimoto just straight up swapped out an entire piano part and gave it to harpsichord instead? I guess good on Ishimoto for smoothing out the balance and loop points of his tracks when given the chance, but it still strikes me as kinda odd
For the longest time, I've felt like the world's biggest Ishimoto detractor in the KH community because I thought I was the only one who ever paid attention to the constant & easily fixable shortcomings with his compositions--and not only in Kingdom Hearts, but throughout his entire career. I would always feel like I needed to tiptoe or offer little excuses as to why Ishimoto maybe didn't succeed this one time. But listening to this video was like a breath of fresh air; FINALLY someone else is out there talking about this one arranger just not doing his compositional due diligence with this series we all love to bits. Musicianship, like baking, is a practiced art--and it doesn't feel great to find yourself at a full buffet and then suddenly be forced to bite into an undercooked soufflé. I really hope--if he has to come back for KH4--that he'll spend a little more time refining his track assignments so we don't get harsh blunders like "Dual Hearts" anymore. This was a great video--really looking forward to your next project^
This was a fantastic insight into the making of music in this series. I love the music of this series so much but I will admit, as soon as I heard the first few bars of this particular tune I was like "wtf is this garbage, this is somehow worse than Swim This Way." Which is a pretty damned incredible accomplishment. Although, actually, that's slightly unfair because I think the music portion of Swim this Way is just fine, the *lyrics* are what make it awful. Same with the other two original Atlantica songs for KH: the music itself works, the lyrics *do not.* Dunno if they worked in Japanese... I've heard them in Japanese but not being a Japanese speaker I can't tell what's good or what's bad. But they sure as hell don't work in English. Anygay, thank you kindly for this insight. You have earned a subscriber.
idk, could the AGGRESSIVE and HARSH/ABRASIVE sound of the full-volume strings be a conscious choice to represent pretty much everything that vanitas represents?? that said, your arrangement notes were spot on.
I suppose I'm willing to doubt the conscious thought put into any decision when we're talking about a composition with easily-fixable rhythm mistakes and harmonies copy-pasted in the wrong key - but intentional or not, I think there has to be some middle ground between imparting an aggressive mood and sounding aggressive to my ears
I think even if the full aggresiveness is intentional, that doesn't really make the song a good piece? Like the intentionality just means the song's harsh monotone and lack of dynamics is a conscious choice. Personally, I believe having some contrast in the song's instrument handling would add to the agressiveness of the song, have the main violin take a bit of a backseat so the other instruments can boom more aggressively. Not playing around with dynamics just means that is one more tool you're not using in your composition.
Oh wow, I have no knowledge when it comes to music theory, but there were multiple times where the music shocked/surprised me in a bad way. It's a shame it's the way it is, but at least it was only used once
It's one of the many unnamed tracks that we only have via game rips. There's a list of them here: www.khwiki.com/List_of_unnamed_tracks_(KHIII) Full versions of the audio can be downloaded from the kh-vids website and most are also on KHWaterBlock's UA-cam channel, but be aware that both use different (fan-made) song titles
Really good video, I'm glad I found this channel, most KH channels don't focus on obscure stuff or things like this. While generally speaking I'm a fan of Ishimoto's work (I should note that I am unfamiliar with his non-KH music) I noticed a lot of the issues you mentioned with this song in KH3, I'm inclined to believe that everything is more or less intentional with the game version, or at least I'm uneducated in how games are made so I am assuming there were quality checks for the music. I still think it's a fine track but I wonder if he toned it down in the OST to make it easier to listen to casually. Great video, I think there's a lot to look at in this series as a whole in regards to its music. Would be curious at a look at some of Shimomura's weaker work or even at a song that's well regarded and explain what it does well musically.
I moreso hate that we DONT get to fight Vanitas in monstropolus, fighting any of the org members in the disney worlds would have helped tremendously with the game's pacing even if they dont die until keyblade graveyard
The whole game has to be reconstructed. If we were to have say, Kingdom Hearts II’s world revisiting, the whole plot would have to be rewritten for a lot of purposes. But I think this also argues that they knew what they were aiming at for the most part.
Im probably in the minority since but I didn't mind Vanitas or the org members not being fought in the Disney worlds since it would almost be a copy of KH2s formula. It made sense in that game since most of the org members were already killed off, so the gloves were off in the Disney worlds. But in KH3, Xehanort is already aware of this past pattern and specially planned for the clash to happen all at once to make his plans work. If he allowed the org members to risk getting killed again in the Disney worlds, then that wouldn't align with his methodical nature.
Well, now you have to come up with a _good_ reason as to why whoever shows up doesn’t immediately wash Sora, Donald and Goofy (+ extra members). Except Vanitas, he just got here.
Ishimoto has always been hit or miss in Kingdom Hearts. It's so weird because his compositions are really solid in everything else. His biggest issue in Kingdom Hearts seems to be his poor arrangements and use of synthesizers in orchestral pieces, this is one of the reasons why I heavily disliked the final boss theme in KH3
Most of the Keyblade Graveyard cutscene songs are unnamed tracks, here's a list of them sorted by the cutscene they appear in: www.khwiki.com/List_of_unnamed_tracks_(KHIII) KHWaterBlock has most of them uploaded on UA-cam, but under different (fan-made) names
0:34 Ah it's that clip with the rendering error where Vanitas is shown in the Monster World as he goes through the door! That's not how the door is supposed to work!
This was a really cool video! And was really easy to follow as someone with minimal music knowledge. I've actually listened to this song a lot (insane, I know) and I've always had the thought that it was a bit stiff and drawn out, but this really helped put it into words. It just sucks because Vanitas is EASILY my favorite KH character, so whenever something is related to him my brain instantly goes "10/10 A+" even though a lot of his music... leaves something to be desired. Heres hoping that if my boy returns he can get some better music to back up his scenes 🙏
Great video! I love this energy for a song I honestly forgot about. You really highlighted the problems with this track (and the lack of variation in many of his tracks). I loved David Russell’s edit to the track and I wish it was used instead. Also, love that eternal moments shout out because that’s my favorite song in the series. Thanks for an awesome and informative video❤️
The worst for me is dark domination aka the final boss theme holy cow it's bad it actually hurts my ears. Idk why they use fake instruments or so many especially when its grad final for the dark seaker saga
ua-cam.com/video/tKPQyZ31D8A/v-deo.htmlsi=rac4pAVoKc-c_cNN This video adds extra information about what problems Ishimoto has. This is good because it covers his work for NeoTWEWY. He has similar problems to Hans Zimmer. Name a problem Hans Zimmer has and Ishimoto has it. Ishimoto’s work went down roughly after 2012. I loved his work in Dissidia, but Dissidia NT sounds like fan tracks, and not good ones, just ones made to sound epic. I’m not sure whether the OST or the game version is the final version because the game version sounds more consistent with the rest of the soundscape of Kingdom Hearts. The soundscape of Kingdom Hearts uses piano a lot. The OST versions have guitar instead.Nomura told Ishimoto of all the composers to make the most revisions. Fun fact, Ishimoto was the synth operator for II, and she credits Dark Domination as both of their work (although it could be literal wording, and she means she made most of the musical material for that theme), so Shimomura must have a lot of faith in him.
The only thing abt the song is hat sum parts r off beat, which are jarring. However, i think the song itself is fine tho it is repetitive. I rlly love flags of fury tho. Its amazing and iconic imo
I knew something about 3 felt off to me. I actually prefir the original version of 13th struggle. And some others. At lwast i know what it is. The lack of change and veriaty in tone.
I’ll be honest, this wasn’t a very good breakdown. I’m still left confused on why a lot of these issues are objective faults and not just stylistic choices. Maybe it’s just because I don’t have any real background in music theory, but this video still should have done a better job explaining those issues for people like me. I get that the percussion repeats too much and some parts sound a bit clunky. That’s all I can really agree with though. I generally like that synthesizer sound, so the harsh sounding parts don’t bother me. They actually sound quite appropriate and give the track some oomph. Green Requiem’s version sounded nice, but was ultimately weaker for me. Some of the “improvements” the official OST version made seemed to make the track a bit weaker too. It’s not the greatest track ever or anything like that, but it seemed sound enough. The biggest flaw with this video is that it really just explains your preferences. It’s really no better than Dual Hearts itself. Perhaps this video itself needs its own “official OST” version to iron out its flaws.
I appreciate you taking the time to give feedback! And you're right: at the end of the day, this video is about why the song is my least favorite, not necessarily the objective worst. To hopefully give a clearer explanation, if you're interested, I think my issue with the song boils down to two points. The first is that the song is *sloppy* . There are many places where the string rhythms aren't lined up with the rest of the instruments, where percussion hits are oddly out-of-place, or where the harmonies don't match the current melody. And yeah, not all of these would be obvious to someone casually listening (some of it's sort of a "once you hear it you can never unhear it" kinda deal). My problem is that these issues are easy to solve, almost amateur, not something that we should be seeing in a professional composition for a AAA game; it comes across as rushed and unfinished. Second, and this might not have came through very clearly, but I feel like the song crosses the line from loud to *noisy* . It's one thing to have a song that's bombastic and packs some punch, but "Dual Hearts" dials up the aggression in a way that I find sonically unpleasant. I believe you can find a balance between a climactic villain song and an enjoyable sound quality - "Forza Finale" comes to mind - but I don't think this song comes even close. "Dual Hearts" has loudness in spades, but it feels less like an intentional decision and more of a lack of polish. (Even if being totally and tonally aggressive to the max is the style Ishimoto is going for, then I think the style is a poor choice, both in respect to the cutscene and to fitting in with the rest of the KH3 soundtrack.) (And if you disagree, that's totally cool, as long as you're not coming to my house and blasting "Dual Hearts" in front of me then we're all chill
@@Aid1043 I appreciate you taking the time to further explain things in a polite manner. I'm sorry if my original comment came across as very rude. Some of the stuff I said was an attempt to be funny, but I can see how it may not have come across that way. I can definitely see your points. I agree with the first point to an extent. Some of it is a bit sloppy. I don't really agree with the second point. Don't worry, I won't do that to you. I don't know where you live.
@@stampoulisrafael5262 it's just hyperbole. KH3 is not a BAD GAME - it's easily a 6.5/10 even at its worst (v1.0 or v1.1 pre Critical mode). But it's undeniable that it had so much more potential. It had the story beats and some good character moments, a good variety of boss battles and mob fights, but neither got the focus or the pacing they deserved. Even in Remind, the scenario was threaded entirely as an afterthought just to sequelbait
@@stampoulisrafael5262 I think anyone who's going to criticize video games needs to play Action 52 for at least 20 minutes. Just so they understand the actual depths a piece of art can sink to xd
Honestly i just think square enix is trying to fit a triangle in a square hole with Ishimoto. The orchestrated work in KH series seems to be a challenge for him but his works with rock and hip-hop like in Final Fantasy 7 crisis core and The world ends with you are memorable classics
This for sure. Clearly, his fanbase responds most positively when he can sample his way through a soundtrack, like he's done for all his non-orchestrated game projects. I think he really would find so much more success if he were able (or allowed) to do that hip-hop construction kit stuff for all the games he works on--or otherwise, not be assigned tracks that are outside his wheelhouse. Musicians have specialties, and it's really not fair to him--or the players--for these game producers to expect proficiency in all genres and styles of musicmaking.
at least the song doesn't have lyrics that say "check it out, I'm in the house like carpet"
And if there’s too many heads in my blunt, I won’t spark it.
@@wrfsxxx8114 Ill save it like rocket fuel. It's everybody's blunt and it's cool
@@KrimsonKattYT 'Til everybody's gone and it's cool
Then I spark it up with my brother
@@inmemoriame His momma named him Moe, but I call him Moe Lover
@@OwNAvenged And he's more than a cover, he's a *quilt*
The term your looking for to explain all the instruments being too loud and fighting for attention, is known as MUDDY in musical terms.
As someone with zero (maybe even negative) music knowledge, you explained this so well even I followed. Great job!
man, that's such a shame. I always heard people bashing Ishimoto's work in this game but I liked his stuff in Type-0 and TWEWY. I didn't get why he got so much hate. listening to this tho, it reminds me of some of the errors I used to make messing around in GarabeBand when I was in middle school 💀 (specifically with leaving random cymbals and misaligning the strings since you always gotta remember they're a bit behind if you leave them by default on the midi)
Because he sucks ass
He did the music for type-0? Cool, didn’t know that. I myself like his work in Twewy and BBS too, but I do agree that by kh3 he wasn’t hitting nearly as hard. I also do recognize that both BBS and Twewy have plenty of music that wasn’t composed by him, though idk if that’s the case for Type-0
Twewy is definitely him at his peak. I think it's just a case of genres he specializes in
i think for many people who dont pay too much attention to the tiny stuff in music like myself its one of those tracks that are just whatever but for people who know all the ins and outs of musics it drives them nuts
honestly even knowing music and now knowing all the ins and outs of this song it makes me love it even more
I think this is an interesting take! I think it's cool to deep dive into the music of KH! There are a few things I disagree with here.
1. The double cymbal crash they used is an effect. Before the crashes, the snare and bass drum were playing together. After the crashes, the snare rests and the bass drum plays on. The crashes are a segway into this. It signals the slight change in percussion. This sounds very intentional.
2. The low strings playing with the piano sounds stylistic imo. Intitially, the low strings play a syncopated rhythm, then change to a straight time rhythm which sounds like 3 quarter notes and 2 eighth notes at the end. The piano does it's own thing while the low strings keep the drive going (at a reduced volume).
3. The clashing key signatures again sounds stylistic and intentional. The composer is using Chromatic Harmony. This is when they use notes outside the key signature (also called accidentals) to create a chord. Naturally, Chromatic Harmony sounds unpleasant to the ear when played by itself and no melodies or other harmonies to back them up. However, the way it's used here is to create tension. There is the main melody and there is the underlying tension behind it.
4. The "random" symbol crash is used in a couple way. One - to signify the start of another 4 or 8 bar phrase. Two - It helps break up the repetitive nature of the piece.
5. While dynamically, the piece stays at one volume, I have to disagree with the mixing. The majority of this piece is in unison (all instruments playing the same thing). All the instruments sound balanced volume-wise, nothing sounds particularly quiet or loud imo.
6. If the music was purposely made for a cutscene as this piece is, then it's allowed to be repetetive. Composers do this all the time for video games or movies. Every 4 or 8 bars there is something different happening whether it's the cymbal crash, other percussion going quiet or joining other percussion, the brass playing their little montage, or the strings playing their chromatic triplet run.
7. Instruments playing slightly before or after the beat is quite common in music. I think it works fine for this application.
Neat, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I always appreciate hearing musical KH opinions
In concept, I'm all for experimenting with unexpected harmonies and building tension through odd rhythms, but I just have a really hard time believing any of this is intentional in "Dual Hearts". Maybe it's because Ishimoto's other tracks also share a lot of the synthesizer habits, but it comes across to me as passing off a rushed and underdeveloped arrangement under the guise of thematic parallels and mood-building.
The fact that Ishimoto felt the need to make so many alterations in the OST version also makes me doubt the carefulness of the original composition. And remember, an entire third of his KH3 songs don't loop correctly (7 out of 21, and that total's including four songs that don't have loop points to begin with), so forgive me if I doubt the attentiveness and polish he puts into his arrangements.
Even in his non-cutscene music, Ishimoto loops the same four-to-six note melody for dozens of measures on end: take "Keyblade Cycle", "The Flick Finalist", or "Digital Domination", for instance. Looping something in a cutscene isn't inherently bad - the unnamed "Battle of the Guardians" I used in the outro is basically just four notes (based on Ishimoto's "Replicas"), but I consider it a gorgeous composition - yet I find that the differences between repetitions in "Dual Hearts" fail to keep the piece moving forward and just makes me mentally add it to the "Ishimoto loops stuff again" pile. Maybe that's a bit reductive, but his songs are the only ones for which I consider this an issue
For nearly everything I have a problem with, I could come up with an theoretical explanation as to why it might be a conscious stylistic decision; if that's the case, then I maintain that it is a poor decision, if not for the sake of my ears then for how it fails to meet the standards of the other KH3 cutscene tracks.
@@Aid1043 While I disagree, that's perfectly okay. That's the beauty of it.
Honestly tho, you should do more of these videos, they are a cool idea 😄.
Dude. You just hit the nail on the head on why I do not particularly enjoy most of Ishimoto’s music for KH. I just don’t think his style meshes well with Kingdom Hearts as a whole, not just with Dual Hearts. His harsh-sounding MIDI instruments and lack of mixing just does not sound pleasing to me.
For me personally, it’s why Dark Domination is one of _my_ least favorite songs in the series. The violin synths are so screechy and monotone at points that it just sounds…ehhhhh…
It’s not helped at all by the fact it’s supposed to be THE FINAL BOSS THEME. THE GRAND FINALE OF THE XEHANORT SAGA, and it’s just…not that good. Yoko should have been the one to compose it, especially given the fact she made Forza Finale, which works WAY better as a final boss theme, and it’s not even for the final boss!
As much as I love KH3, I will never get over the fact that Yoko did not get to compose the final boss theme. She would have done it so much more justice.
At least she was able to do the music for the data battles and Yozora. Data Xehanort’s theme is such a great musical sendoff to the character.
@@thedanliest The "Overture to the Decisive Battle" version is what we should've got.
I totally forgot that the album release made changes to the music that differed from how they appeared in the game. I feel like that probably influences the way people listen to and feel about Ishimoto’s KH3 work, as that’s what people are most likely listening to over the direct game rips. A lot of these lacking details definitely require at least some understanding of music and music theory to pick up, and as somebody who has none of that, even after taking all of this analysis in, the song still doesn’t rub me in any wrong way, despite me definitely being more aware of things like the repetition. Still, I absolutely love this breakdown, and I appreciate how accessible it is to people who may not know much about musical theory.
Also for some reason, playing all those examples of Ishimoto’s single note outros back to back made me truly realize just how identical the melodies of nearly all of those battle themes sound lmao. No wonder I thought a lot of KH3’s soundtrack was same-y 😭
Totally agree with the album thing - sometimes I go back and listen to the in-game versions and it feels so strange. Like, in "Replicas", Ishimoto just straight up swapped out an entire piano part and gave it to harpsichord instead? I guess good on Ishimoto for smoothing out the balance and loop points of his tracks when given the chance, but it still strikes me as kinda odd
For the longest time, I've felt like the world's biggest Ishimoto detractor in the KH community because I thought I was the only one who ever paid attention to the constant & easily fixable shortcomings with his compositions--and not only in Kingdom Hearts, but throughout his entire career. I would always feel like I needed to tiptoe or offer little excuses as to why Ishimoto maybe didn't succeed this one time. But listening to this video was like a breath of fresh air; FINALLY someone else is out there talking about this one arranger just not doing his compositional due diligence with this series we all love to bits. Musicianship, like baking, is a practiced art--and it doesn't feel great to find yourself at a full buffet and then suddenly be forced to bite into an undercooked soufflé.
I really hope--if he has to come back for KH4--that he'll spend a little more time refining his track assignments so we don't get harsh blunders like "Dual Hearts" anymore. This was a great video--really looking forward to your next project^
Swim this Way is significantly worse. At least Dual Hearts is largely forgettable and doesn't make my ears bleed.
14:40 they really messed up the cutscene by clearly letting venitas be seen on the other side of the door portal.
LOL I've never noticed
This was a fantastic insight into the making of music in this series. I love the music of this series so much but I will admit, as soon as I heard the first few bars of this particular tune I was like "wtf is this garbage, this is somehow worse than Swim This Way."
Which is a pretty damned incredible accomplishment.
Although, actually, that's slightly unfair because I think the music portion of Swim this Way is just fine, the *lyrics* are what make it awful. Same with the other two original Atlantica songs for KH: the music itself works, the lyrics *do not.* Dunno if they worked in Japanese... I've heard them in Japanese but not being a Japanese speaker I can't tell what's good or what's bad. But they sure as hell don't work in English.
Anygay, thank you kindly for this insight. You have earned a subscriber.
idk, could the AGGRESSIVE and HARSH/ABRASIVE sound of the full-volume strings be a conscious choice to represent pretty much everything that vanitas represents?? that said, your arrangement notes were spot on.
I suppose I'm willing to doubt the conscious thought put into any decision when we're talking about a composition with easily-fixable rhythm mistakes and harmonies copy-pasted in the wrong key - but intentional or not, I think there has to be some middle ground between imparting an aggressive mood and sounding aggressive to my ears
I think even if the full aggresiveness is intentional, that doesn't really make the song a good piece? Like the intentionality just means the song's harsh monotone and lack of dynamics is a conscious choice.
Personally, I believe having some contrast in the song's instrument handling would add to the agressiveness of the song, have the main violin take a bit of a backseat so the other instruments can boom more aggressively. Not playing around with dynamics just means that is one more tool you're not using in your composition.
Oh wow, I have no knowledge when it comes to music theory, but there were multiple times where the music shocked/surprised me in a bad way. It's a shame it's the way it is, but at least it was only used once
Where did you find the arrangement of the battle of the guardians at the end? It's so good!!
It's one of the many unnamed tracks that we only have via game rips. There's a list of them here: www.khwiki.com/List_of_unnamed_tracks_(KHIII)
Full versions of the audio can be downloaded from the kh-vids website and most are also on KHWaterBlock's UA-cam channel, but be aware that both use different (fan-made) song titles
Really good video, I'm glad I found this channel, most KH channels don't focus on obscure stuff or things like this. While generally speaking I'm a fan of Ishimoto's work (I should note that I am unfamiliar with his non-KH music) I noticed a lot of the issues you mentioned with this song in KH3, I'm inclined to believe that everything is more or less intentional with the game version, or at least I'm uneducated in how games are made so I am assuming there were quality checks for the music. I still think it's a fine track but I wonder if he toned it down in the OST to make it easier to listen to casually. Great video, I think there's a lot to look at in this series as a whole in regards to its music. Would be curious at a look at some of Shimomura's weaker work or even at a song that's well regarded and explain what it does well musically.
I moreso hate that we DONT get to fight Vanitas in monstropolus, fighting any of the org members in the disney worlds would have helped tremendously with the game's pacing even if they dont die until keyblade graveyard
The whole game has to be reconstructed. If we were to have say, Kingdom Hearts II’s world revisiting, the whole plot would have to be rewritten for a lot of purposes. But I think this also argues that they knew what they were aiming at for the most part.
Nah.
I feel that's just reaching for thing to complain about KH3.
Im probably in the minority since but I didn't mind Vanitas or the org members not being fought in the Disney worlds since it would almost be a copy of KH2s formula. It made sense in that game since most of the org members were already killed off, so the gloves were off in the Disney worlds. But in KH3, Xehanort is already aware of this past pattern and specially planned for the clash to happen all at once to make his plans work. If he allowed the org members to risk getting killed again in the Disney worlds, then that wouldn't align with his methodical nature.
Well, now you have to come up with a _good_ reason as to why whoever shows up doesn’t immediately wash Sora, Donald and Goofy (+ extra members).
Except Vanitas, he just got here.
Ishimoto has always been hit or miss in Kingdom Hearts. It's so weird because his compositions are really solid in everything else. His biggest issue in Kingdom Hearts seems to be his poor arrangements and use of synthesizers in orchestral pieces, this is one of the reasons why I heavily disliked the final boss theme in KH3
Listening to a version of Dual Hearts with the Aqua v Vanitas fight for hours in critical mode hurts so much.
bro said "let me make this sound like an amateur midi website type ahhh beat"
Does anyone know to name of the part of the song that plays before roxas return
Most of the Keyblade Graveyard cutscene songs are unnamed tracks, here's a list of them sorted by the cutscene they appear in: www.khwiki.com/List_of_unnamed_tracks_(KHIII)
KHWaterBlock has most of them uploaded on UA-cam, but under different (fan-made) names
0:34 Ah it's that clip with the rendering error where Vanitas is shown in the Monster World as he goes through the door! That's not how the door is supposed to work!
summarizing all the flaws of the track with the battle of the guardians track playing is so devious. Nice video. I enjoy these breakdowns.
This was a really cool video! And was really easy to follow as someone with minimal music knowledge. I've actually listened to this song a lot (insane, I know) and I've always had the thought that it was a bit stiff and drawn out, but this really helped put it into words.
It just sucks because Vanitas is EASILY my favorite KH character, so whenever something is related to him my brain instantly goes "10/10 A+" even though a lot of his music... leaves something to be desired. Heres hoping that if my boy returns he can get some better music to back up his scenes 🙏
I mean. I think it sounds neat.
I loved this song actually
Now I know the worst and best kh themes.
Great video! I love this energy for a song I honestly forgot about. You really highlighted the problems with this track (and the lack of variation in many of his tracks). I loved David Russell’s edit to the track and I wish it was used instead.
Also, love that eternal moments shout out because that’s my favorite song in the series.
Thanks for an awesome and informative video❤️
Who cares. Plus 11:18 is the dopest part of the track
The worst for me is dark domination aka the final boss theme holy cow it's bad it actually hurts my ears. Idk why they use fake instruments or so many especially when its grad final for the dark seaker saga
ua-cam.com/video/tKPQyZ31D8A/v-deo.htmlsi=rac4pAVoKc-c_cNN
This video adds extra information about what problems Ishimoto has. This is good because it covers his work for NeoTWEWY.
He has similar problems to Hans Zimmer. Name a problem Hans Zimmer has and Ishimoto has it.
Ishimoto’s work went down roughly after 2012. I loved his work in Dissidia, but Dissidia NT sounds like fan tracks, and not good ones, just ones made to sound epic.
I’m not sure whether the OST or the game version is the final version because the game version sounds more consistent with the rest of the soundscape of Kingdom Hearts. The soundscape of Kingdom Hearts uses piano a lot. The OST versions have guitar instead.Nomura told Ishimoto of all the composers to make the most revisions. Fun fact, Ishimoto was the synth operator for II, and she credits Dark Domination as both of their work (although it could be literal wording, and she means she made most of the musical material for that theme), so Shimomura must have a lot of faith in him.
I thought this was about the video game Dual Hearts and I was about to be like "wtf I love that game".
Oh I honestly thought it was a remix of Vanitas’ theme 😅
The only thing abt the song is hat sum parts r off beat, which are jarring. However, i think the song itself is fine tho it is repetitive. I rlly love flags of fury tho. Its amazing and iconic imo
There's a chance that maybe ishimoto wrote this for real instruments but for some circumstance or another he had to slap samples together?
I knew something about 3 felt off to me. I actually prefir the original version of 13th struggle. And some others. At lwast i know what it is. The lack of change and veriaty in tone.
Finny fun exists
Great work. Keep it up!
This is an incredibly video! Thank you for making it!
Sounds fine
I’ll be honest, this wasn’t a very good breakdown. I’m still left confused on why a lot of these issues are objective faults and not just stylistic choices. Maybe it’s just because I don’t have any real background in music theory, but this video still should have done a better job explaining those issues for people like me. I get that the percussion repeats too much and some parts sound a bit clunky. That’s all I can really agree with though. I generally like that synthesizer sound, so the harsh sounding parts don’t bother me. They actually sound quite appropriate and give the track some oomph. Green Requiem’s version sounded nice, but was ultimately weaker for me. Some of the “improvements” the official OST version made seemed to make the track a bit weaker too. It’s not the greatest track ever or anything like that, but it seemed sound enough. The biggest flaw with this video is that it really just explains your preferences. It’s really no better than Dual Hearts itself. Perhaps this video itself needs its own “official OST” version to iron out its flaws.
I appreciate you taking the time to give feedback! And you're right: at the end of the day, this video is about why the song is my least favorite, not necessarily the objective worst.
To hopefully give a clearer explanation, if you're interested, I think my issue with the song boils down to two points. The first is that the song is *sloppy* . There are many places where the string rhythms aren't lined up with the rest of the instruments, where percussion hits are oddly out-of-place, or where the harmonies don't match the current melody. And yeah, not all of these would be obvious to someone casually listening (some of it's sort of a "once you hear it you can never unhear it" kinda deal). My problem is that these issues are easy to solve, almost amateur, not something that we should be seeing in a professional composition for a AAA game; it comes across as rushed and unfinished.
Second, and this might not have came through very clearly, but I feel like the song crosses the line from loud to *noisy* . It's one thing to have a song that's bombastic and packs some punch, but "Dual Hearts" dials up the aggression in a way that I find sonically unpleasant. I believe you can find a balance between a climactic villain song and an enjoyable sound quality - "Forza Finale" comes to mind - but I don't think this song comes even close. "Dual Hearts" has loudness in spades, but it feels less like an intentional decision and more of a lack of polish. (Even if being totally and tonally aggressive to the max is the style Ishimoto is going for, then I think the style is a poor choice, both in respect to the cutscene and to fitting in with the rest of the KH3 soundtrack.)
(And if you disagree, that's totally cool, as long as you're not coming to my house and blasting "Dual Hearts" in front of me then we're all chill
@@Aid1043 I appreciate you taking the time to further explain things in a polite manner. I'm sorry if my original comment came across as very rude. Some of the stuff I said was an attempt to be funny, but I can see how it may not have come across that way. I can definitely see your points. I agree with the first point to an extent. Some of it is a bit sloppy. I don't really agree with the second point. Don't worry, I won't do that to you. I don't know where you live.
It sounds good to my ears and nothing else really matters. There are no rules in art, only guidelines you can ignore.
the world needs more ishimoto haters, thank you for your service o7
I'm so glad SOMEONE ELSE is bringing up the issues with Ishimoto's work on KH3. I feel like I've been so alone in this for so many years.
What are you talking about???? Legit, go to any song he composed on UA-cam and you'll see nonstop comments about how he ruined the ost
I have to disagree, Dream Eaters from DDD is the worst track. The LA LA LA kills me
Monumental L.
Dream Eaters is at least competently composed
What you on about. That theme's catchy as hell
@UA-cam delete this idiot's account. Dream Eaters theme is GOAT.
It's peak.
I dont hear any problems with this song. The problem is the usage and lack of good pacing. I.E KH3 is ass
What a nuanced take.
I wish people like you would Play an actual bad game lmao
@@stampoulisrafael5262 it's just hyperbole. KH3 is not a BAD GAME - it's easily a 6.5/10 even at its worst (v1.0 or v1.1 pre Critical mode). But it's undeniable that it had so much more potential. It had the story beats and some good character moments, a good variety of boss battles and mob fights, but neither got the focus or the pacing they deserved. Even in Remind, the scenario was threaded entirely as an afterthought just to sequelbait
@@stampoulisrafael5262 I think anyone who's going to criticize video games needs to play Action 52 for at least 20 minutes. Just so they understand the actual depths a piece of art can sink to xd
@@RizzyGyattEvery game has more potential and we already knew there was more KH coming out before 3 even released. What a non-critique.