In reality I think the audiences for jazz and classical are overlapping more and more - even 30-40 years ago you'd hear "Jazz is the classical music of pop"
A lot of classical composers loved "weird" harmonic relationships like mediants, and such "Giant steppy" progressions can be found in several works from the late 19th - 20th centuries. My favorite example is Ravel's Ondine having a progression during it's climax that's basically Giant steps but minor. If we were to go back in time, a lot of these Jazz cats were quite aware of classical music. Coltrane himself probably didn't think he had stumbled upon a progression no one had ever done. Rather the challenge was/is using the "multi-tonic system" as a vehicle for expression via improvisation
I’m always amused by the number of current jazz musicians that seem to have the idea that jazz musicians alone posses a uniquely sophisticated, deep, and nuanced concept of harmony. I doubt that musicians in Trane’s time had such arrogance (NB: NOT referring to the OP of this Mahler excerpt)
@leighton-youtube Small correction - That groups steward was Miles Davis, I don't think Coltrane ever played with Bill Evans outside of it. I think Bill also didn't even stay for a year in total, apparently audiences would heckle him for his race and it got to him. I'm also not convinced Coltrane was unaware of such music prior to meeting Bill Evans as classical had always been an interest of Jazz muscians, famously Charlie Parker. Bill Evans definitely helped inspire coltranes modal direction which he explored with McCoy Tyner, another baddass Pianist. He also was himself quite interested in theology and philosophy and definitely helped lead coltrane down the famous path he took in the 60s in that regard.
@@dr7246 You often get this from 18-22 year olds at college (non-musical) who want to seem cooler than their perception of the "elite". So they compare 7ths and 9ths to Mozart and say that jazz just has harmony that classical doesn't. It gets a little aggravating to hear people like that talk... Yeah, I'm thinking specifically of this one moron I met at university. Still can't get over it. He then played on the public piano the laziest 4-chord-ish pop improvisation with a set of arpeggios I'd ever heard. I sincerely wish I were more verbally eloquent, so that I could smash public ignorance and all the other gross tendencies in the act.
Holy crap that's dope! This probably one of my favorite movements of anything that Mahler has written and now that I know that's what hear, I'll forever be able to strongly compare this and Giant Steps.
This movement by major thirds can also be seen in the fourth movement of the same symphony (Adagio). One progression follows Dbmaj -> Ab7 -> Amaj -> E7 - F. This progression is used throughout the Adagio. Anyways, love to see one of my favourite composers being viewed through a jazz lens. God bless.
Indeed, it’s one of the core elements of these movements. In this movement however it adds to the overall weirdness. It’s never about a fancy chord progression.
Descending in major thirds isn’t new, what trane discovered was the secondary dominance created when you also move up a minor third FM->Ab7->DbM and so on
He didn't "discover" this either, seeing as the exact same progression was used by Richard Rodgers in the bridge of "Have You Met Miss Jones" from 1937. (Bb->Db7->Gb->A7->D)
The Venn diagram for this audience is crazy
There's dozens of us!
i don’t have anyone to share this with…
In reality I think the audiences for jazz and classical are overlapping more and more - even 30-40 years ago you'd hear "Jazz is the classical music of pop"
Im in it! :D
I have no idea whether I'm in either circle but I am here
A lot of classical composers loved "weird" harmonic relationships like mediants, and such
"Giant steppy" progressions can be found in several works from the late 19th - 20th centuries. My favorite example is Ravel's Ondine having a progression during it's climax that's basically Giant steps but minor.
If we were to go back in time, a lot of these Jazz cats were quite aware of classical music. Coltrane himself probably didn't think he had stumbled upon a progression no one had ever done. Rather the challenge was/is using the "multi-tonic system" as a vehicle for expression via improvisation
I’m always amused by the number of current jazz musicians that seem to have the idea that jazz musicians alone posses a uniquely sophisticated, deep, and nuanced concept of harmony. I doubt that musicians in Trane’s time had such arrogance (NB: NOT referring to the OP of this Mahler excerpt)
Bill evans was apart of Coltraines band for a couple of years and he showed Coltraine a lot of the ideas of Ravel and Debussy
@leighton-youtube Small correction - That groups steward was Miles Davis, I don't think Coltrane ever played with Bill Evans outside of it. I think Bill also didn't even stay for a year in total, apparently audiences would heckle him for his race and it got to him. I'm also not convinced Coltrane was unaware of such music prior to meeting Bill Evans as classical had always been an interest of Jazz muscians, famously Charlie Parker.
Bill Evans definitely helped inspire coltranes modal direction which he explored with McCoy Tyner, another baddass Pianist. He also was himself quite interested in theology and philosophy and definitely helped lead coltrane down the famous path he took in the 60s in that regard.
@@randomchannel-px6ho oh shit i think ur right, i got them mixed up
@@dr7246 You often get this from 18-22 year olds at college (non-musical) who want to seem cooler than their perception of the "elite". So they compare 7ths and 9ths to Mozart and say that jazz just has harmony that classical doesn't. It gets a little aggravating to hear people like that talk...
Yeah, I'm thinking specifically of this one moron I met at university. Still can't get over it. He then played on the public piano the laziest 4-chord-ish pop improvisation with a set of arpeggios I'd ever heard. I sincerely wish I were more verbally eloquent, so that I could smash public ignorance and all the other gross tendencies in the act.
I never realized this but yeah I can't unhear giant steps now
Holy crap that's dope! This probably one of my favorite movements of anything that Mahler has written and now that I know that's what hear, I'll forever be able to strongly compare this and Giant Steps.
The waltz' first three bars are simply a whole tone descent!
This movement by major thirds can also be seen in the fourth movement of the same symphony (Adagio). One progression follows Dbmaj -> Ab7 -> Amaj -> E7 - F. This progression is used throughout the Adagio.
Anyways, love to see one of my favourite composers being viewed through a jazz lens. God bless.
Indeed, it’s one of the core elements of these movements. In this movement however it adds to the overall weirdness. It’s never about a fancy chord progression.
That timp hits hard
Thanks for doing this video!
chopin did similar tricks in his works, transposing up or down minor thirds, major thirds, the whole lot
Descending in major thirds isn’t new, what trane discovered was the secondary dominance created when you also move up a minor third FM->Ab7->DbM and so on
True, Mahler uses deceptive cadences here instead of perfect ones.
He didn't "discover" this either, seeing as the exact same progression was used by Richard Rodgers in the bridge of "Have You Met Miss Jones" from 1937. (Bb->Db7->Gb->A7->D)
@@mrtchaikovskylol, everything truly has already been done before
waw malher in advance
The next step in music is moving up/down by 3 and 1/2 steps.
god damn it
First Ravel, now Mahler lmao
I see it but I can't hear it
YES
Which recording is this?
oh no
Recording?
Is this actually what Mahler wrote?
For notational purposes I've simplified the harmonies somewhat while making a reduction of the score but the basic harmonic progression is correct.
Wow. Truly, all people involved in the creation of this are visionaries.
He stole it from Ravel
Mahler was ALWAYS stealing from Coltrane.