As a melanated kid, I was really excited that we were finally getting a Black Princess. Imagine my disappointment when she spends most of the movie as a fucking frog. 🤡
I think that if they had removed all of the scenes where they bash the idea of "find love, already" into Tiana's head, they would have a very solid frame for a story about Tiana swallowing her pride and accepting help from those who love her. The seeds of that idea are there with Charlotte, her rich friend who overpays her for the beignets, who she oddly hasn't asked for anything, even though Charlottle would be more than happy to help her.
Exactly what I thought! It seems like the movie was trying to drive that narrative, but yeah all those lectures about finding love made it convoluted. She was so focused on doing everything herself, which is understandable financially, because no one wants to be in debt to another. But emotionally, she carried everything herself as well. She had a distance from all of her friends, including Lottie. I think that meeting Naveen was emotionally what she needed to accept help and stop carrying all that weight on her shoulders.
It's funny that despite my love for Facilier and villains in general I am quite happy with Disney focusing on more personal conflicts between characters. I feel like it's not hard to acknowledge that just because you have a hyperfixation on a certain type of character that doesn't mean it needs to be in everything you consume. But hey, what do I know, I'm still a decade away from turning 30
I remember watching this movie when I was 6 and seeing the "Dig A Little Deeper" scene and thinking: "The witch and everyone has it wrong, they already love each other, what they want is their dreams come true". And now I'm thinking how can you end up getting something so wrong, from your own creation, that a small kid can realize that something is so off.
I love Tiana but hated theme. Honestly, Tiana didn’t really need to learn a lesson, Naveen did and probably Charlotte. Basically the movie should have been about Charlotte and Naveen helping Tiana get her restaurant because they love her so much.
Exactly what lesson did Naveen need to learn??? Dude just wanted to be a musician and got turned into a frog. He even wants to help her get her restaurant with nothing in return.
@@jayrose8869 Remember Naveen’s parents cut him off financially because he was spending their money like it was his, and he was going to marry Lottie for money. Naveen needed to learn how to be responsible and that there’s more to life than money.
@@kaykay8855 True… But I don’t think he really cared about the money. He just needed it to fund his music career. And if he would’ve married the other girl they both would’ve got what they wanted. She would’ve married a prince and he would’ve got to keep playing music. He just happened to fall in love with Tiana because he was turned into a frog.
@@jayrose8869 it was never clearly stated that he wanted to be a musician, he’s musically gifted but he never said he wanted to be a musician. What we get is that he wanted to travel but since his parents cut him off and he was trying to marry Lottie for her money.
I’m happy someone else did not like people talking trash about Tiana and her work. It was so weird to see a character working her ass off to one day fund her dream and have a comfortable life… being told that she just needs to relax and stop trying to overcome the racist landowners who keep pushing the goalpost. Not to compare my struggles to a black woman in the 1920’s, but I’m the first person in my family to peruse higher education. I worked through high school, undergrad and my first year of law school to save enough money to afford it. When I’m not working I sell plasma to make up for the difference. Combine that with the studies that take up all the remainder so I have time to essentially sleep before I do it all over again. I do this because I want to one day take care of my mother who has supported me all her life and we won’t have to worry about money ever again. If someone came up to me and said, “Hey, have you tried not working so hard? There are more important things in life.” They would be picking up their teeth off the floor.
ive been trying to figure out how to shoe-horn in a villain into my stories because i thought it needed one but this video has shown me that really isnt necessary. honestly these videos have helped me so much with my writing, specifically with making the process so much easier and enjoyable because it taught me whats not necessary or bad and to just remove that shit.
There was an entire plot point of the film where Facilier was Mama Odie’s son that was cut cause it was unnecessary. I find that interesting cause certain implications of him being her son are left in but why keep the character if they got rid of his connections to her??
Cuz it would probably raise more questions than answers. And you know how fandoms like theories, or what ifs. Some of which forget the premise of the movie all together.
For once I personally really love that the girl best friend isn't a lesbian because I think it highlights very positive female friendship in a way not many movies can get right. Women are always catfighting, stepping on everyone's toes to get the big hunk who can support them for the rest of their days. Women just aren't like that (90% at least) and it's lovely that they don't need to be lovers for Charlotte to just help her friend achieve something that's more important to her than getting a prince is to Charlotte.
I really wish that there was more media with the Loa in them that wasn't depicting Voodoo as some sort of evil witchcraft. They are very cool and interesting. In general, there are a lot of mythologies that are basically untouched. I hope someday that there will be a black animated sitcom were the Loa exist as casual side characters like God and Jesus in Family Guy.
Yeah, I was researching stuff about Voodoo magic, and it's really interesting, and just portraying them as an evil cult it stupid and uninteresting ^^'
It is all really interesting and seeing it so rarely used other than 'villainy' growing up was why I thought for a long time The Serpent and the Rainbow was as good as it got...I still have mad nostalgia for it, but plenty have pointed out to me flaws with it.
The idea of them remaking Princess and The Frog, but utilizing their modern animation philosophy just sounds amazing. A fun side note, I enjoyed the Yahtzee style bit near the end. Something about saying 'inject that shit into my veins' while the character gestures to their lack of an arm is very funny.
I love this video! I've seen top 10's of Disney couples just shitting all over Naveen and saying how he is too much of a player to deserve a relationship, and I'm like, "...Did we watch the same movie???? The man was ready to get three full-time jobs for her dream!"
Another great video! I agree with all of your points. Even as a kid, I always felt that Tiana was always in the right and that she was forced to do something she didn't need to do, get married. I always related to Tiana when she was getting chastised by others for her dreams. As a black girl, the scene with the two white guys felt SO DAMN real. The people that actually care about her want her to succeed in her goals and as an adult that was easier to see. I also love your analysis of Naveen and his relationship with Tiana. I never even thought about it that way before. Princess and The Frog is still one of my favorite movies because of the 3 main characters and their relationship with eachother, Tiana, Naveen and Charlotte. And that's what the movie should have done more! TLDR: I love this channel. It makes me think.
I really appreciate that You point out that not every relationship needs to have conflict Could just be an influence of my favorite genre being slice of life, which is the most boring to describe but still very fun to read, but I don't think that every single aspect of a story needs to bring in more drama
Yes to the wholesome love!! The people who want to enemies to lovers "screaming at each other until we sleep together" type stuff can keep it all for themselves; I want hands being held and being each other's hype man in my stories, thanks =] ❤
You can't convince me Tiana's bestie Lottie didn't take advantage of offering her the catering gig to subtly give her the rest of the cash she needed to start the restaurant. 🥰 As I gotten older though, the complicated knock out dragged out drama love stories get easy to just put down and walk away from. 🚶♀️ I'm getting old and tired. A little happy love story is nice now and then.
Thanks for saying a lot of the things I felt. Note I am biased because from Louisiana and the inspiration for Tiana is Leah chase who is a Louisiana legend with a amazing story and honestly I would love it if they had Tiana more inspired by Leah's incredible life rather than just personality. However with Leah chase helping keep civil rights leaders safe from police, how the only reason the police didn't stop her was because her restaurant was too popular that everyone ate there despite segregation so cops closing it down would have white folk rebel too for taking away their favorite gumbo, and helping local black workers cash checks that was meant to not be able to be redeemed by the worker as a way to keep black workers down... Yeah I doubt Disney would even hint at that any time soon. Luckily they kept that Leah chase greatly surpassed her husband because of her work and doing what was right despite being able to take easier paths.
Omg i just realized that, despite Tina having the smallest time spent as a humane, she has probably the most different dresses out of any disney princes or even character in general! A waiter, a chef, dream, casual, party, princes party costume, bride dress, green dress, other green dress as a kid! Wow! Paaaart of me feels that Disney was trying to overconfiancate the frog fiacso by having Tina dress up in as many different sellable merch and dresses for children to cosplay her as. Because no one (at least not that ive seen) dresses up like her as a frog.
As a black girlie who is highkey obsessed with cooking, went through the Future Business Leaders of America bullshit in high school, and came out the womb singing musical numbers, I was absolutely rabid when the Princess and the Frog came out. I spent the entire movie thinking: 1. Why is she still a frog? I could look at these two in human form all day, pls. 2. What the fuck is wrong with her wanting to open her restaurant??????? She'll get married later! 3. Tiana is my princess. Charlotte is an amazing bestie. Naveen is my new favourite prince. The rest of these punks can go home. 4. Wait, could they...maybe poly? Lottie's making my gaydar go off a tad. Nah, this Disney. Never in a million years.
The movie was pretty racist with the portrayal of Haitian / Gbe voodoo, honestly. Then the much unwarranted backlash over The Woman King happens a decade later and I think, "Dang. Gbe people can't catch a break from Westerners."
I wanted to watch Woman King but then I saw an article saying it was problematic or there was something problematic in it. I can’t remember what, it’s been almost a year. I’ve been burned by deeper looks into things I liked already, I didn’t want to invest time for it to just happen again. Anyone here know if that was valid? Or maybe it’s a case of “It could’ve been handled better, but it’s not the worst thing, the movie is still worth watching”?
Haven't thought about this movie in a while, but your takes make me look back on it more fondly. I'd totally be down for a remake that cuts the unnecessary villains and is a story about two people fixing a problem and falling in love along the way.
I think an interesting take on the core theme would be that while it's ok to work hard for your dreams, it is also important to take a step back once in a while to enjoy life.
i think that's still a really poor choice of theme when the person being fed this lesson is a black woman who grew up in poverty, and two of the key people delivering the message grew up rich, one of whom is white and the other royalty. like telling a drowning person "just breathe" while you're relaxing on a yacht and they're being held underwater.
@@asterling4 Sorry I forgot to mention that my statement is about if the script was rewritten for a new movie. That being said, it doesn't have to be the rich characters to deliver the message. I'm not saying to not work hard, but if all someone does is work then they can miss out on life.
@@avatir1588 yeah, i could see it ... idk, i liked lily's point that the moments when charlotte and naveen were wholeheartedly supporting tiana's dreams were some of the best in the movie. to preserve that while also sending the message of "you have to have a little fun along the way" could be tricky. and it also might contribute to misinformation. people who work days and nights in desperate search of financial security don't do so because they're workaholics who need to lighten up; like the video points out, tiana's aims are perfectly reasonable. she's not ready to settle down and start a family until she's gotten a little further in life, which is extra hard for someone like her. her situation is the product of decades-old systemic injustice rather than a personal failing. so i think you'd need a script that really emphasizes how tiana is doing her best and fighting against the injustice that's kept her down; the misogynistic "give up on your dreams and get married" presented by the narrative as antagonistic rather than the lesson she has to learn. if she learns to rest and enjoy life along the way to her dream, it's because of newfound support from loved ones, not because she's gotten over her penchant for hard work that was never a flaw in the first place. maybe it could even work as a story in which tiana is a fairly static character, whose main growth comes from the support she gets from other characters _allowing_ her to loosen up, instead of being _chastised_ to do so. and the main focus is those around her learning to support her better.
@@asterling4 i agree it would be a tricky thing to write. I was mainly throwing out possible ideas. I really like your idea of her being a static character who grows. Like if she thinks the only way to succeed is on your own but learns it's ok to lean on friends (or something like that. There are far better writers than me haha). I really love how strong her character is and would not like to see that change. I think she just deserves to be in a more polished movie.
I am the odd one out that didn't really care about the villain at all, he was kind of a waste of screentime. I really liked the other characters for the reasons you stated, though. The friend could have easily just been an unlikable asshole and I really thought she was gonna be when she was first introduced but their friendship turned out to be pretty wholesome. The prince had good character development and their relationship was also a nice serving of wholesome. One gripe I thought was harsh at the time was the complaint that she was a frog the whole movie. Swan Princess did that first, though it wasn't a Disney movie. Soul existing definitely doesn't help the argument now, though, Disney looking pretty sus for that even to me now. I feel bad for not watching PatF in theaters since it seems like it flopping was the final nail in the coffin for Disney 2d animation but I remember seeing Pooh around the same time.
Good vid, glad to see someone appreciate this movie the way I appreciate it while acknowledging its flaws! It also got me thinking about how people enjoy often stories structured opposite to their own life', with those who have easier lifes with few if any "villans" like serialized serious stories with clear cut villains and tons of angst and agony, while those with more difficult life's often caused by a few well defined "villains" like silly slice of life stories with no real villains and a lot of comfort and joy.
Voodoo has always been seen as bad and I hate it. Hoodoo being seem as good though is also irritating for this reason alone: Spiritual practices of any kind itself are NOT EVIL. It depends on how you’d use it. As a NOLA born gal myself, it upsets me when ppl in media use my culture as something “demonic” or evil.
This video actually proved my point that her turning into a frog was the worst decision in the movie (I had that opinion before, but I didn’t now fully why I thought that way). First of all, she wasn’t in the wrong at all. Yes, she might have been too fixated on her dream, but almost everyone can be fixated. For their dreams and passions, people are willing to accept anything for that to be achieved. For Naveen, it was justified cause he was an asshole and him turning into an animal would help him become a better person. But for Tiana, she was an responsible person and someone who treated everyone with kindness. So it doesn’t make sense for her to turn into a frog. And second, the fact that she turned into a frog is an plothole. Cause tell me, how is this even possible in the first place? Did Dr. Facilier really take the time to put this into the curse? It’s like having a self-destruct button in your machine. The whole point of the curse is to make Naveen never return to human, but somehow put an ability to turn others into frogs if they kiss the cursed target and that is the solution? Bullshit. This makes Dr. Facilier an incompetent villain. Like what is he tryna do, create an army of frogs?
It would make way less sense to Naveen turn back into a human after Tiana kisses him, that would have made Facilier look like an icompetent villain. The only mistake he did was letting Naveen escape in the first place. That's why you're wrong about Tiana turning into a frog is plot hole.
As a kid, I related so hard to Tiana as I also wanted my own restaurant (which I now don't due to issues in that industry but that's not currently relevant), and it just stung how much this movie seemed to try to frame this as a bad thing- so the ending as a kid really just confused me. Like, is getting a restaurant a bad thing or good thing? Was Tiana's mom happy she got her dream- or that she got a man who seemed to be ok with this dream? It really disheartened me and I never could really say I liked the film, which is a shame as Tiana was amazing!
I think it's interesting when you say that the Shadows didn't need to be villains, because when you explained the whole idea of what Tiana Naveed and Charlotte go through, that really would have been a good through line, because Tiana's main obstacle was already an antagonizing world that told her you needed to undercut someone else for their dream. I don't have much to say on that, I think it's actually the premise for a good movie like you said it's pretty cool. I was not expecting this take and was pleasantly surprised by it.
Wow. Now I wanna write a story about my main couple smothering each other in love and affection. More domestically, anyway. I've been writing more flirtatious scenes recently.
I know that it's a small part, but the start of the disney live action remake trend was actually Alice in wonderland from 2010, or the Cinderella remake from (I believe) 2014. Have you seen the maleficent sequel, because when i pointed out the parallels to manifest destiny bs, i was told I was "looking too deep into things" by my mother, who sneered at any of my analysis tendencies. Great video as usual.
YES YES, I wanted to talk about why Tiana is my favorite princess to people I know and they never shut up about "why wasn't the villain in the movie more? The movie sucked cause he wasn't there and they kept talking about her dreams and shit!" Wow, that was the most interesting part ya twits but ok - holy shit the villain literally has to force himself into the plot multiple times cause the movie didn't know how to write itself without a clear guide. If you don't know how to write conflicts without a literal villain, bro; have you heard of an argument amongst friends, a scuffle? A FLIP FLAP JACKING? (Arguments should be called that, I stand by that)
One of the reasons why I initially loved this movie from first seeing it in theaters with a friend to watching it on DVD with my own mom was how closely relatable the movie was mimicking my own life at the time: working hard to achieve my dream while surrounded by so many berating me for having said dream, let alone me not thinking about marrying a woman and having grandkids with her by the same age everyone else in my family was doing the same back then, while having that one good friend willing to support said dream however he could (which later said support was actually how I came out to myself as trans), realizing that my own dream could always include more rather than just be that and nothing else... I still have mixed feelings that later echo'd the notion of "Tiana's a great character in a not-great movie, thus should have been in a great movie to match" and I would be so down for Princess and the Frog to be remade to highlight how it wasn't her that should have changed (so drastically for the better), but those around her than truly did love and care about her would change both in refection as well as by their own actions~ I think you could still work in the Shadow Man as more of a narrator-like presence in a hypothetical remake mostly to beat over the [white] audience that Tiana has such a heartfelt and joyous influence to those around her without her initially realizing it because of how her dedication to her dream doesn't blind her to what could come later for her post-hard work, let alone what she could do presently that's she's already doing anyway because that's just who she is and it shows in her black joy paid forwards by those that would selflessly give her joy, pull a live-action Mulan and incorporate the music from the songs into the instrumental soundtrack while said live-action soundtrack's expands upon that feeling of character-driven dynamics rather than the epicness spun from adventure-fantasy overdose, and for fuck's sake DON'T MAKE HER A FROG FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE MOVIE even if anything else was disregarded (this shouldn't be either even if Soul got fucking lucky everything else was just that great about it) but seriously stop turning your black/non-white characters into other beings, if ya really hell-bent on making sure the "and Frog" part of the title stays Charlotte's right there and a simple rewrite can have Tiana, Naveen, and Charlotte all have different reasons to break the frog curse together, have plenty of self-vindication and love for Tiana including Naveen joining on on wanting to support Tiana, and still keep the best love and romance ever in a Disney movie promptly spotlighted across an entire movie of positive-smothered love and affection no matter what outside forces hold anyone back from their dreams along the way~
Y'all mean a whole lot to me and your stuff is a big inspiration to my writing- beyond my own experience of course. Love your stuff- I just wanted to say, thank you :)
I think this could have worked had they A) given Tiana a lesson to learn, like something about accepting help from people that actually care about you, or understanding that dreams can change or something. And B) Make Nadin's assistant the villain rather than Dr Facillier. Make him more comparable to Death from The Last Wish. Not really a villain, just an agent of the beyond.
No seriously it was RIGHT THERE to make Tiana learn to accept help from those who love her without feeling like she’s taking the easy way out. And that would have been so powerful to see a black woman be determined and ambitious while being loved and HELPED by the people around her.
*sighs in too many spots spent in 0.25 speed and rapid-pausing to catch what's said* Tangent: Headcanon is now that Lottie is bi-sexual and loves Tiana, but was enamored of his hotness Naveen and becoming a legit princess.
I am so glad-and agree with you on that part about those naysayers!! Instead of spouting nonsense this-villain that. I’m not forcibly for it. But will say I love seeing a movie about loving relationships or being your true self and being inspired by it. Thank you for putting that out there. Tired of the rhetoric hogwash they flay these adoring films for.
I knew you were a fan zp for a while. So thank you for confirming 😂. This movie did have me really enjoy the relationship between Nadeen and Tiana. Not only because I'm from NOLA, so I enjoyed the movie in a more personal way. But gotta agree Tiana really didn't change because she didn't need to. I also was very happy that Birdie didn't become an act 2 antagonist. Legitimately refreshing to see her genuinely care about Tiana.
I remember wacthing this moive for the first time as an adult with an abusive ex. I didn't word it the same I remember voicing that I was confused as to why Taina was being dogpiled.(I was kinda gaslit by him saying oh she just needs to learn to take it easy, something he told me alot) Especially just for working hard towards her dreams. At the time I was overworking myself to survive and to fix up the trailer we lived in, while he did nothing but order pizza and play video games. I loved the moive, but it really struck me that something was off. Its really nice hearing the problem articulated so well, thank you.
Yeah Dr. Facilier is fun but doesn't add that much... I remember watching a different critique that wanted to intertwine him more naturally into the story by establishing a stronger connection to Tiana earlier on rather than having them only interact and fight near the end, which could work but then you might have to balance that between the real important stuff, that being Tiana character goals and relationships and growth with Naveen, Lottie, etc. and like... I would find really bringing more of the good parts and reworking how the script beats marriage and crap on Tiana more valuable than trying to make Facilier to work. But idk maybe if a writer could get both to happen that'd be cool too. Just prioritize the really good stuff first and foremost than just the villain stuff people seem so hung up for these days. -_- idk I hope whenever Tiana's story gets revisited, they are able to polish it more. Tiana is beloved and deserves so much good things. :,)
i watched the princess and the frog the first time, as an adult not too long ago. i feel like tiana and others like mulan are shoved into a romance just for the hell of it. i wish they expanded on their self fulfilling journeys and backstories rather than some meaningless romance. i also wish tiana didnt spend most of the movie as a frog. i wish it was a bit more realistic.
I actually really liked the parts of the movie where they werent frogs. I hate that disney made almost every non white character an animal at some point of the story. loved the characters and music but the story was kind of eh.
Their choice in how they go about the black princess(es) is so weird compared to how they treat white and other none white princess stories Moana - let’s set this Polynesian story in Hawaii where they’re chiefs and voyagers and incorporate Hawaiian myth. Brave - let’s set sn original story it in a free Scotland where they’re monarchs and warriors. Mulan - let’s tell a myth about a powerful Chinese warrior woman from China. Princess and the Frog- Let’s base this off of a European fairytale and set it in the Jim Crow era when most black people endured heavy discrimination and black women were mainly stuck in domestic work! And make it the only one set in fairly modern times. LM and Tinkerbell - let’s just race swap these characters we’ve been marketing a certain way for 30+ years, call it black empowerment and then play both sides of the fence which version to sell. So weird. Africa and the Caribbean exist and there are so many myths and fascinating kingdoms to chose from. There’s a dragon slaying princess called thakane in one of them! That’s a better basis for a film than this
1:28 I loved both Films. Since I'm Jewish the prince of Egypt holds a special in my heart the music the animation the story and the conflict between Moses and Pharoah its all amazing (the burning bush scene still gives me goosebumps to this day) and Shrek is Hilarious the fact that this film only exists spite Disney is absolutely amazing to me! But I do hope you talk about The Prince of Egypt someday since it's a film that me and my family enjoy alot.
Regarding Princess Mononoke, do you like the film or you consider that is overpraised by all the fantasy anime nerds. Also, what about other Studio Ghibli films like Spirited Away or The tale of princess Kaguya ?
It's a fine movie, but it's telling when a "Animation needs to be more mature" nerd says this is their favourite Ghibli movie or something like Grave of the Fireflies or Only Yesterday, I find that very telling about their actual priorities.
@@LilianOrchard I personally think that is a mediocre movie and the comedy movie ran (1975) was a lot more effective the it. as for tales of earthsea... it's more of a fine mess. a few good ideas fighting for space in a sea underdeveloped ones.
@@chaosdiamonds5464 Pixar is technically treated as a separate entity from Disney. I once saw an interview where the people from the "How To Train Your Dragon" mention that the people charged with its TV show are considered separate businesses.
Could you please make a video explaining Dr. Facilier's role? (Honestly I never thought of him as unnecessary before, but this idea 11:44 makes me want to work him back in)
They're obsessed with villains because they think it makes them look edgy to prefer villains over heroes. Literally "I'm not like other girls." As for animation styles, animation nerds are deranged.
@@LilianOrchard i actually keep procrastinating on watching the new spider man animated movies because 80% of the compliments these movies get online are about the animation so it makes me think that the story isnt very good. Also ofc the whole "hEy sincE yOu'rE a 3D aniMator yOu hAve tO wAtch tHe sPider Man mOvies" is annoying
@@SonicTheHedgehog-yc6yv The stories in the movies are great, its just that online animation people filate the animation because its unique compared to disney and dreamwork's output.
@@LilianOrchardI love Villains in stories because of how enjoyable they can be just handle them will and keep them consistent like Frieza in Planet Namek Saga has to be one of the most entertaining elements of the story that's why Toriyama keeps bringing him back every other arc have you seen black Frieza?😂😂😂
Remembering you dive into Disney movies, and the Princess and the Frog episode in general, i think I agree. I’d love a movie with Doctor Facilier, but this movie doesn’t need it. If adding a Disney villain makes the movie worse, then maybe we don’t need a villain. Besides, we already have a villain for this should-be-poly group of characters ready to go; Society. We have Naviens parents, sick of him being a “playboy.” Laudie’s dad, who’s overprotective and spoiling her with his 1920 Old Southerners money. And Tiana’s mom, whose married to family values and mourning her husband. Just write that movie, Disney; fuck, a conservative Tenth of online fanfiction is sitting there as inspiration, and you have paid writers to polish those scripts.
Ugh, I love this so much! I agree with many of the points here -- it might be a fun excercise to retool the script for any Black writers + editors who have time to do so. I remember looking up who the script writers were to some research on the movie, and if iirc it was 7 men and only 1 Black person amongst them. Could mean nothing but I feel that it might have influenced what the themes of movie were (assuming the writers were also cishet). Unconcious biases color your creative work, so this is why you should have ppl to look over it to catch things you miss. Again, fun retooling excercise. Awesome video, yall
I really believe that's what they were trying to do have her understand that she needs these people because ultimately it can help her get what she wants but what she needs is connection but it sounds weird when you say it that way so I think they just became a little tone-deaf with that on top Disney being up their own ass about Traditions versus subversion but I still feel like they were going in the right direction because I can see what you're talking about in the movie itself without your contacts but it just makes it Shine all the more with your contacts anyway yeah I agree that it's there but that unfortunately it's muddled under Disney logic as I like to say
Hey if you like musicals (stage ones not movies ones) I have two to suggest to you. 1: is Matilda the musical (especially if you like the movie). 2: is ride the cyclone about a fortune telling machine using his dying wish to save one of six children that he wasn’t able to warn about their death on the cyclone roller coaster. (Before you ask they’re only enough power to save one). I think you will Connie Blackwood, she has a very Cinderella vibe to her and you want to give her a hug because she has really low self esteem. They’re also Jane Doe, the most tragic character of the whole musical. Do her being a Jane Doe she has no memories of her life before her death and there are moments where she acts a little like a little kid and it’s adorable especially because she has sort of waddle to her walk at times. The other kids are Noel the only guy boy in town who romanticizes tragedy, the only other girl Ocean who is an over achiever partly because she her parents attention but they still ignore her (she’s a bit like Amity before her redemption near the end of season one though she does get her own), Mischa a Ukrainian boy who got adopted out because his mom was dying and she wanted to keep her son safe and his adopted parents suck and Ricky a disabled boy who mostly lived in his mind because of his disability (part of his condition cased him to be mute) and in the original version of the show when he dies he is able to speak and walk with out his crutches.
@@kaitlinowens2714Don't be. I can see she enjoys mocking people for engaging with her content "the wrong way". I can only assume she and some of her audience are just into that dynamic 😄 We get it, Lily's a bad bitch lol
I’m one who LOVED princess and the frog because the idea of finally having black representation being a Disney princess just brings me joy. At the same time I do have loads of issues with the movie. My main issue was having the only black princess, at the time, spend the majority of her movie as a frog. They didn’t have to do that but ok. I completely understand having magical elements to the story but it is a slap in the face to have the first black princess spend most of the movie as a frog. My other issue is definitely with how the movie treated her as if she was the one who had to change when nothing was wrong with her. Though you explained that very well. My third issue is less with the movie n more with those watching it. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to burst the bubbles of some white people by telling them the reason why the realtor brothers didn’t sell her the restaurant at first was because she’s black. Like… in that time period where they clearly show the segregation with housing n those men saying “a woman of your background” what other reason could it have possibly been? Lastly I personally don’t see Charolette as a good friend. Simply because this shouldn’t have been the first time she paid Tiana to cater if she really cared and what she said at the end about Niven’s kid brother rubbed me the wrong way.
@@disgustof-riley8338 yeahhh I don’t think Lottie did that cuz she was aiming to help Tiana at the moment. I think it was a mix of her trying to achieve her own goal (getting the prince’s attention through food) and the fact she’s a spoiled princess who doesn’t understand money.
I could see why Tianas mom wanted babies. This was the 1920s wasn't WW1 right around the corner. No to mention the end of slavery wasn't all that long ago, time for black business in America.
I still wish she would make fun five chapter stories on her ideas I read her star wars story and wish for more😊 I don’t know how to do emojis sorry if I used the wrong one
I know it's not super important, but the blink and you’ll miss it walls of text were a little distracting just because they blipped in and out about six times throughout the video. In previous videoes I would pause and try to get to the exact right second to read it, but here it's barely even possible and I didn't bother wasting time to try. Maybe I was so distracted because my misokinesia somehow gets caught up in quick cuts, I dunno. You don't have to even consider it, but maybe just leave those parts out since most people won’t even try to read it if it's that fast?
just because someone disagrees with the opinions he holds and/or talks about him in a negative light doesn't automatically mean he's a bad person and problematic in some way i thought this was like common sense
Speaking of editing, there are at least three occasions where text seems to appear on screen for a 1/3 of a second. Would you mind redoing the video so we can see the text?
Bro this movie was amazing and was completely and utterly beautiful with its characters the songs the romance the villain the plots and the Romantic pairing which is absolutely amazing combining both sides of work hard and play hard as titana was more focused on achieving her fathers dream she was working herself too hard and wasn’t leaving any time for her to enjoy anything where is the Prince was completely and utterly lack of responsibilities lived his whole life as a free person never having to worry about those troubles which is both equally bad Completely missing The entire point of the film which is that yes it’s important to have dreams and work on them but it’s awesome important that you don’t work too hard on those dreams and completely ignore everything else in your life you’re trying to make this song in depth thing about how it’s so bad and so much deeper than it is when it isn’t it’s an amazing movie you just dislike it and you’re trying to find a deep Cilla Kwei to do reason using facts and evidence and has a deep meaning within when really it’s a Childs movie it’s not deep it’s fun stop it you’re making it more deep than it is in an attempt to try and validate why you hate it yeah you can hide it but it’s not because of this deep shit which doesn’t even exist it’s because you just dislike the movie And they never said she should give up on her dreams so she can just get married that was number one said it’s simply saying that you shouldn’t overwork yourself to the point where you’ve only focused on that because that’s a shitty life to live
Lily. i need my star wars prequel video. You're one of the only people that think they're amazing (likely for its political inspirations) but i wanna hear from you
is it just me or does UA-cam seem uncertain if this channel exists at all? try to open the channel to find something cool to watch and get a 404 type web error open it through opening a video prior and/ or through the spot where the site lists the channels you're subscribed to and no problem at all...
Hmmm...make Shadowman a jealous loser who thinks 'buying Tiana's love' is the way to 'win' her, turning Naveen into the frog because he sees him as a threat. There's your villain, good night everybody!
"Facelier isn't necessary" Well that's true, but hey, let's not ignore the whole, yanno, "insanely derogatory depiction of an actual religion" thing he has going. Like goodness gracious.
Another good one, I love stories about others being inspired by people in their life. Some people in the world just passively uplift people and it’s great to see it better someone. I can’t stand that I have to take care and make them better love stories. We should not marry our mothers or a caretaker. Can’t wait to see you next video. Have a nice day.❤
You might like Shikimori's Not Just a Cutie. It's a romance anime with literally no plot or drama; just two dorks being happy together while the side characters quip nonstop.
Just rework Dr. Facilier. He's too good conceptually (and in om-screen execution) to cut, and there's all kinds of ways he could more directly interact with the protagonist and be less unnecessary. I mean shit, why not have a scene where he's trying to tempt one of Tiana's friends, but all they want is for her to succeed and it ends up backfiring?
You remember that thing I said about the Loa basically being Q? Facilier is literally just Baron Samedi in design. So just make that character Baron Samedi.
One thing I was surprised by was that you didn't mention some of the problematic aspects of the film, largely revolving around the romanticization of Jazz Age New Orleans and the stereotypical depiction of the Voduo religion through the character of Dr. Facilier.
Also the three of them should be in a throuple. also also, i feel like they could just have shadow man be in a remake and just, not have him be a villain? I don't know I'll have to think about this some more but there's something there
Guys stop trying to read the single-frame text, it's not important.
No, single-frame text is the most important thing ever and I shall never stop >:3
Neverrrr!!!!!!
Hyperfixation is real
And it boils in my blood
As a melanated kid, I was really excited that we were finally getting a Black Princess. Imagine my disappointment when she spends most of the movie as a fucking frog. 🤡
I wish I could pin this comment higher 🥺🥺
It's the main reason why I can't stand this movie and Soul
I want my black main character to be that the entire movie
@sillyb.swirls5155 this sentiment 🥹🥹
Right. I love the movie, but bro WHEN are we getting a black princess who is a princess from the jump and stays a human goddamnit!!!
@@ayannabranchcomb7535 Wish is coming out in a few months so it looks like we wont have to wait long
I think that if they had removed all of the scenes where they bash the idea of "find love, already" into Tiana's head, they would have a very solid frame for a story about Tiana swallowing her pride and accepting help from those who love her. The seeds of that idea are there with Charlotte, her rich friend who overpays her for the beignets, who she oddly hasn't asked for anything, even though Charlottle would be more than happy to help her.
Exactly what I thought! It seems like the movie was trying to drive that narrative, but yeah all those lectures about finding love made it convoluted. She was so focused on doing everything herself, which is understandable financially, because no one wants to be in debt to another. But emotionally, she carried everything herself as well. She had a distance from all of her friends, including Lottie. I think that meeting Naveen was emotionally what she needed to accept help and stop carrying all that weight on her shoulders.
It's funny that despite my love for Facilier and villains in general I am quite happy with Disney focusing on more personal conflicts between characters. I feel like it's not hard to acknowledge that just because you have a hyperfixation on a certain type of character that doesn't mean it needs to be in everything you consume. But hey, what do I know, I'm still a decade away from turning 30
Same
I remember watching this movie when I was 6 and seeing the "Dig A Little Deeper" scene and thinking: "The witch and everyone has it wrong, they already love each other, what they want is their dreams come true".
And now I'm thinking how can you end up getting something so wrong, from your own creation, that a small kid can realize that something is so off.
I love Tiana but hated theme. Honestly, Tiana didn’t really need to learn a lesson, Naveen did and probably Charlotte. Basically the movie should have been about Charlotte and Naveen helping Tiana get her restaurant because they love her so much.
Exactly what lesson did Naveen need to learn??? Dude just wanted to be a musician and got turned into a frog. He even wants to help her get her restaurant with nothing in return.
@@jayrose8869 Remember Naveen’s parents cut him off financially because he was spending their money like it was his, and he was going to marry Lottie for money. Naveen needed to learn how to be responsible and that there’s more to life than money.
@@kaykay8855 True… But I don’t think he really cared about the money. He just needed it to fund his music career. And if he would’ve married the other girl they both would’ve got what they wanted. She would’ve married a prince and he would’ve got to keep playing music. He just happened to fall in love with Tiana because he was turned into a frog.
@@jayrose8869 it was never clearly stated that he wanted to be a musician, he’s musically gifted but he never said he wanted to be a musician. What we get is that he wanted to travel but since his parents cut him off and he was trying to marry Lottie for her money.
I’m happy someone else did not like people talking trash about Tiana and her work. It was so weird to see a character working her ass off to one day fund her dream and have a comfortable life… being told that she just needs to relax and stop trying to overcome the racist landowners who keep pushing the goalpost.
Not to compare my struggles to a black woman in the 1920’s, but I’m the first person in my family to peruse higher education. I worked through high school, undergrad and my first year of law school to save enough money to afford it. When I’m not working I sell plasma to make up for the difference. Combine that with the studies that take up all the remainder so I have time to essentially sleep before I do it all over again. I do this because I want to one day take care of my mother who has supported me all her life and we won’t have to worry about money ever again. If someone came up to me and said, “Hey, have you tried not working so hard? There are more important things in life.” They would be picking up their teeth off the floor.
ive been trying to figure out how to shoe-horn in a villain into my stories because i thought it needed one but this video has shown me that really isnt necessary. honestly these videos have helped me so much with my writing, specifically with making the process so much easier and enjoyable because it taught me whats not necessary or bad and to just remove that shit.
There was an entire plot point of the film where Facilier was Mama Odie’s son that was cut cause it was unnecessary. I find that interesting cause certain implications of him being her son are left in but why keep the character if they got rid of his connections to her??
Cuz it would probably raise more questions than answers. And you know how fandoms like theories, or what ifs. Some of which forget the premise of the movie all together.
For once I personally really love that the girl best friend isn't a lesbian because I think it highlights very positive female friendship in a way not many movies can get right. Women are always catfighting, stepping on everyone's toes to get the big hunk who can support them for the rest of their days. Women just aren't like that (90% at least) and it's lovely that they don't need to be lovers for Charlotte to just help her friend achieve something that's more important to her than getting a prince is to Charlotte.
I’d love lily to make a video on why the fuck Disney can’t keep a black person human the whole movie
I really wish that there was more media with the Loa in them that wasn't depicting Voodoo as some sort of evil witchcraft. They are very cool and interesting. In general, there are a lot of mythologies that are basically untouched. I hope someday that there will be a black animated sitcom were the Loa exist as casual side characters like God and Jesus in Family Guy.
That would be fucking awesome! I would 100% watch that
Yeah, I was researching stuff about Voodoo magic, and it's really interesting, and just portraying them as an evil cult it stupid and uninteresting ^^'
It is all really interesting and seeing it so rarely used other than 'villainy' growing up was why I thought for a long time The Serpent and the Rainbow was as good as it got...I still have mad nostalgia for it, but plenty have pointed out to me flaws with it.
The idea of them remaking Princess and The Frog, but utilizing their modern animation philosophy just sounds amazing. A fun side note, I enjoyed the Yahtzee style bit near the end. Something about saying 'inject that shit into my veins' while the character gestures to their lack of an arm is very funny.
I love this video! I've seen top 10's of Disney couples just shitting all over Naveen and saying how he is too much of a player to deserve a relationship, and I'm like, "...Did we watch the same movie???? The man was ready to get three full-time jobs for her dream!"
Let me guess, they put Belle and Beast at #1?
@@LilianOrchard Yup!
@@LilianOrchardthey were number two. They tend to switch #1 or #2 spot with Mulan/Shen and Beauty and the Beast.
Another great video! I agree with all of your points. Even as a kid, I always felt that Tiana was always in the right and that she was forced to do something she didn't need to do, get married. I always related to Tiana when she was getting chastised by others for her dreams. As a black girl, the scene with the two white guys felt SO DAMN real. The people that actually care about her want her to succeed in her goals and as an adult that was easier to see. I also love your analysis of Naveen and his relationship with Tiana. I never even thought about it that way before. Princess and The Frog is still one of my favorite movies because of the 3 main characters and their relationship with eachother, Tiana, Naveen and Charlotte. And that's what the movie should have done more!
TLDR: I love this channel. It makes me think.
I really appreciate that You point out that not every relationship needs to have conflict
Could just be an influence of my favorite genre being slice of life, which is the most boring to describe but still very fun to read, but I don't think that every single aspect of a story needs to bring in more drama
Yes to the wholesome love!! The people who want to enemies to lovers "screaming at each other until we sleep together" type stuff can keep it all for themselves; I want hands being held and being each other's hype man in my stories, thanks =] ❤
You can't convince me Tiana's bestie Lottie didn't take advantage of offering her the catering gig to subtly give her the rest of the cash she needed to start the restaurant. 🥰 As I gotten older though, the complicated knock out dragged out drama love stories get easy to just put down and walk away from. 🚶♀️ I'm getting old and tired. A little happy love story is nice now and then.
Thanks for saying a lot of the things I felt. Note I am biased because from Louisiana and the inspiration for Tiana is Leah chase who is a Louisiana legend with a amazing story and honestly I would love it if they had Tiana more inspired by Leah's incredible life rather than just personality. However with Leah chase helping keep civil rights leaders safe from police, how the only reason the police didn't stop her was because her restaurant was too popular that everyone ate there despite segregation so cops closing it down would have white folk rebel too for taking away their favorite gumbo, and helping local black workers cash checks that was meant to not be able to be redeemed by the worker as a way to keep black workers down... Yeah I doubt Disney would even hint at that any time soon. Luckily they kept that Leah chase greatly surpassed her husband because of her work and doing what was right despite being able to take easier paths.
Omg i just realized that, despite Tina having the smallest time spent as a humane, she has probably the most different dresses out of any disney princes or even character in general! A waiter, a chef, dream, casual, party, princes party costume, bride dress, green dress, other green dress as a kid! Wow! Paaaart of me feels that Disney was trying to overconfiancate the frog fiacso by having Tina dress up in as many different sellable merch and dresses for children to cosplay her as. Because no one (at least not that ive seen) dresses up like her as a frog.
As a black girlie who is highkey obsessed with cooking, went through the Future Business Leaders of America bullshit in high school, and came out the womb singing musical numbers, I was absolutely rabid when the Princess and the Frog came out. I spent the entire movie thinking:
1. Why is she still a frog? I could look at these two in human form all day, pls.
2. What the fuck is wrong with her wanting to open her restaurant??????? She'll get married later!
3. Tiana is my princess. Charlotte is an amazing bestie. Naveen is my new favourite prince. The rest of these punks can go home.
4. Wait, could they...maybe poly? Lottie's making my gaydar go off a tad. Nah, this Disney. Never in a million years.
I too would've liked if Elemental was a story of the main couple being smothered in love and affection for 120 minutes.
We need more silly characters like Lottie, who do not put a lot in the story, but rather comfort the character and support them
The movie was pretty racist with the portrayal of Haitian / Gbe voodoo, honestly. Then the much unwarranted backlash over The Woman King happens a decade later and I think, "Dang. Gbe people can't catch a break from Westerners."
Ikr? Woman King was a good movie but ofc it was just as forgotten as quickly as it came out
My and Mikaila LOVED The Woman King.
Woman King rocked! I hate how quickly it was discarded!
I wanted to watch Woman King but then I saw an article saying it was problematic or there was something problematic in it. I can’t remember what, it’s been almost a year. I’ve been burned by deeper looks into things I liked already, I didn’t want to invest time for it to just happen again.
Anyone here know if that was valid? Or maybe it’s a case of “It could’ve been handled better, but it’s not the worst thing, the movie is still worth watching”?
@jonmercano1138 People were mad that the movie wasn't about the thing they pretended to care about at that moment in time (black slavers)
Haven't thought about this movie in a while, but your takes make me look back on it more fondly. I'd totally be down for a remake that cuts the unnecessary villains and is a story about two people fixing a problem and falling in love along the way.
Fair point about the Shadowman but “I got friends on the other side” is an all time banger
I think an interesting take on the core theme would be that while it's ok to work hard for your dreams, it is also important to take a step back once in a while to enjoy life.
i think that's still a really poor choice of theme when the person being fed this lesson is a black woman who grew up in poverty, and two of the key people delivering the message grew up rich, one of whom is white and the other royalty. like telling a drowning person "just breathe" while you're relaxing on a yacht and they're being held underwater.
@@asterling4
Sorry I forgot to mention that my statement is about if the script was rewritten for a new movie. That being said, it doesn't have to be the rich characters to deliver the message. I'm not saying to not work hard, but if all someone does is work then they can miss out on life.
@@avatir1588 yeah, i could see it ... idk, i liked lily's point that the moments when charlotte and naveen were wholeheartedly supporting tiana's dreams were some of the best in the movie. to preserve that while also sending the message of "you have to have a little fun along the way" could be tricky.
and it also might contribute to misinformation. people who work days and nights in desperate search of financial security don't do so because they're workaholics who need to lighten up; like the video points out, tiana's aims are perfectly reasonable. she's not ready to settle down and start a family until she's gotten a little further in life, which is extra hard for someone like her. her situation is the product of decades-old systemic injustice rather than a personal failing.
so i think you'd need a script that really emphasizes how tiana is doing her best and fighting against the injustice that's kept her down; the misogynistic "give up on your dreams and get married" presented by the narrative as antagonistic rather than the lesson she has to learn. if she learns to rest and enjoy life along the way to her dream, it's because of newfound support from loved ones, not because she's gotten over her penchant for hard work that was never a flaw in the first place. maybe it could even work as a story in which tiana is a fairly static character, whose main growth comes from the support she gets from other characters _allowing_ her to loosen up, instead of being _chastised_ to do so. and the main focus is those around her learning to support her better.
@@asterling4 i agree it would be a tricky thing to write. I was mainly throwing out possible ideas.
I really like your idea of her being a static character who grows. Like if she thinks the only way to succeed is on your own but learns it's ok to lean on friends (or something like that. There are far better writers than me haha).
I really love how strong her character is and would not like to see that change. I think she just deserves to be in a more polished movie.
I am the odd one out that didn't really care about the villain at all, he was kind of a waste of screentime. I really liked the other characters for the reasons you stated, though. The friend could have easily just been an unlikable asshole and I really thought she was gonna be when she was first introduced but their friendship turned out to be pretty wholesome. The prince had good character development and their relationship was also a nice serving of wholesome.
One gripe I thought was harsh at the time was the complaint that she was a frog the whole movie. Swan Princess did that first, though it wasn't a Disney movie. Soul existing definitely doesn't help the argument now, though, Disney looking pretty sus for that even to me now.
I feel bad for not watching PatF in theaters since it seems like it flopping was the final nail in the coffin for Disney 2d animation but I remember seeing Pooh around the same time.
Good vid, glad to see someone appreciate this movie the way I appreciate it while acknowledging its flaws!
It also got me thinking about how people enjoy often stories structured opposite to their own life', with those who have easier lifes with few if any "villans" like serialized serious stories with clear cut villains and tons of angst and agony, while those with more difficult life's often caused by a few well defined "villains" like silly slice of life stories with no real villains and a lot of comfort and joy.
Disney did announce they were making a Tiana series so I hope we get more adorable scenes between her and Naveen
Voodoo has always been seen as bad and I hate it. Hoodoo being seem as good though is also irritating for this reason alone: Spiritual practices of any kind itself are NOT EVIL. It depends on how you’d use it. As a NOLA born gal myself, it upsets me when ppl in media use my culture as something “demonic” or evil.
This video actually proved my point that her turning into a frog was the worst decision in the movie (I had that opinion before, but I didn’t now fully why I thought that way).
First of all, she wasn’t in the wrong at all. Yes, she might have been too fixated on her dream, but almost everyone can be fixated. For their dreams and passions, people are willing to accept anything for that to be achieved. For Naveen, it was justified cause he was an asshole and him turning into an animal would help him become a better person. But for Tiana, she was an responsible person and someone who treated everyone with kindness. So it doesn’t make sense for her to turn into a frog.
And second, the fact that she turned into a frog is an plothole. Cause tell me, how is this even possible in the first place? Did Dr. Facilier really take the time to put this into the curse? It’s like having a self-destruct button in your machine. The whole point of the curse is to make Naveen never return to human, but somehow put an ability to turn others into frogs if they kiss the cursed target and that is the solution? Bullshit. This makes Dr. Facilier an incompetent villain.
Like what is he tryna do, create an army of frogs?
It would make way less sense to Naveen turn back into a human after Tiana kisses him, that would have made Facilier look like an icompetent villain. The only mistake he did was letting Naveen escape in the first place. That's why you're wrong about Tiana turning into a frog is plot hole.
As a kid, I related so hard to Tiana as I also wanted my own restaurant (which I now don't due to issues in that industry but that's not currently relevant), and it just stung how much this movie seemed to try to frame this as a bad thing- so the ending as a kid really just confused me. Like, is getting a restaurant a bad thing or good thing? Was Tiana's mom happy she got her dream- or that she got a man who seemed to be ok with this dream? It really disheartened me and I never could really say I liked the film, which is a shame as Tiana was amazing!
I cant pause fast enough to read 0,05-second message BUT I WILL TRY
I DID IT!!! YAAAAY!
I swear I spent a good 5 or 10 minutes trying just to find a very heartwarming message at the end.
I think it's interesting when you say that the Shadows didn't need to be villains, because when you explained the whole idea of what Tiana Naveed and Charlotte go through, that really would have been a good through line, because Tiana's main obstacle was already an antagonizing world that told her you needed to undercut someone else for their dream.
I don't have much to say on that, I think it's actually the premise for a good movie like you said it's pretty cool. I was not expecting this take and was pleasantly surprised by it.
Wow. Now I wanna write a story about my main couple smothering each other in love and affection. More domestically, anyway. I've been writing more flirtatious scenes recently.
I know that it's a small part, but the start of the disney live action remake trend was actually Alice in wonderland from 2010, or the Cinderella remake from (I believe) 2014. Have you seen the maleficent sequel, because when i pointed out the parallels to manifest destiny bs, i was told I was "looking too deep into things" by my mother, who sneered at any of my analysis tendencies. Great video as usual.
YES YES, I wanted to talk about why Tiana is my favorite princess to people I know and they never shut up about "why wasn't the villain in the movie more? The movie sucked cause he wasn't there and they kept talking about her dreams and shit!"
Wow, that was the most interesting part ya twits but ok
- holy shit the villain literally has to force himself into the plot multiple times cause the movie didn't know how to write itself without a clear guide. If you don't know how to write conflicts without a literal villain, bro; have you heard of an argument amongst friends, a scuffle? A FLIP FLAP JACKING?
(Arguments should be called that, I stand by that)
One of the reasons why I initially loved this movie from first seeing it in theaters with a friend to watching it on DVD with my own mom was how closely relatable the movie was mimicking my own life at the time: working hard to achieve my dream while surrounded by so many berating me for having said dream, let alone me not thinking about marrying a woman and having grandkids with her by the same age everyone else in my family was doing the same back then, while having that one good friend willing to support said dream however he could (which later said support was actually how I came out to myself as trans), realizing that my own dream could always include more rather than just be that and nothing else... I still have mixed feelings that later echo'd the notion of "Tiana's a great character in a not-great movie, thus should have been in a great movie to match" and I would be so down for Princess and the Frog to be remade to highlight how it wasn't her that should have changed (so drastically for the better), but those around her than truly did love and care about her would change both in refection as well as by their own actions~
I think you could still work in the Shadow Man as more of a narrator-like presence in a hypothetical remake mostly to beat over the [white] audience that Tiana has such a heartfelt and joyous influence to those around her without her initially realizing it because of how her dedication to her dream doesn't blind her to what could come later for her post-hard work, let alone what she could do presently that's she's already doing anyway because that's just who she is and it shows in her black joy paid forwards by those that would selflessly give her joy, pull a live-action Mulan and incorporate the music from the songs into the instrumental soundtrack while said live-action soundtrack's expands upon that feeling of character-driven dynamics rather than the epicness spun from adventure-fantasy overdose, and for fuck's sake DON'T MAKE HER A FROG FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE MOVIE even if anything else was disregarded (this shouldn't be either even if Soul got fucking lucky everything else was just that great about it) but seriously stop turning your black/non-white characters into other beings, if ya really hell-bent on making sure the "and Frog" part of the title stays Charlotte's right there and a simple rewrite can have Tiana, Naveen, and Charlotte all have different reasons to break the frog curse together, have plenty of self-vindication and love for Tiana including Naveen joining on on wanting to support Tiana, and still keep the best love and romance ever in a Disney movie promptly spotlighted across an entire movie of positive-smothered love and affection no matter what outside forces hold anyone back from their dreams along the way~
Y'all mean a whole lot to me and your stuff is a big inspiration to my writing- beyond my own experience of course. Love your stuff- I just wanted to say, thank you :)
I think this could have worked had they A) given Tiana a lesson to learn, like something about accepting help from people that actually care about you, or understanding that dreams can change or something. And B) Make Nadin's assistant the villain rather than Dr Facillier. Make him more comparable to Death from The Last Wish. Not really a villain, just an agent of the beyond.
No seriously it was RIGHT THERE to make Tiana learn to accept help from those who love her without feeling like she’s taking the easy way out. And that would have been so powerful to see a black woman be determined and ambitious while being loved and HELPED by the people around her.
*sighs in too many spots spent in 0.25 speed and rapid-pausing to catch what's said*
Tangent: Headcanon is now that Lottie is bi-sexual and loves Tiana, but was enamored of his hotness Naveen and becoming a legit princess.
Where can I find your pure niceness stories?
I am so glad-and agree with you on that part about those naysayers!! Instead of spouting nonsense this-villain that. I’m not forcibly for it. But will say I love seeing a movie about loving relationships or being your true self and being inspired by it. Thank you for putting that out there. Tired of the rhetoric hogwash they flay these adoring films for.
I knew you were a fan zp for a while. So thank you for confirming 😂.
This movie did have me really enjoy the relationship between Nadeen and Tiana. Not only because I'm from NOLA, so I enjoyed the movie in a more personal way. But gotta agree Tiana really didn't change because she didn't need to.
I also was very happy that Birdie didn't become an act 2 antagonist. Legitimately refreshing to see her genuinely care about Tiana.
Here’s to hoping the spinoff animated series will do better by Tiana, specifically.
I remember wacthing this moive for the first time as an adult with an abusive ex. I didn't word it the same I remember voicing that I was confused as to why Taina was being dogpiled.(I was kinda gaslit by him saying oh she just needs to learn to take it easy, something he told me alot) Especially just for working hard towards her dreams. At the time I was overworking myself to survive and to fix up the trailer we lived in, while he did nothing but order pizza and play video games. I loved the moive, but it really struck me that something was off. Its really nice hearing the problem articulated so well, thank you.
Yeah Dr. Facilier is fun but doesn't add that much...
I remember watching a different critique that wanted to intertwine him more naturally into the story by establishing a stronger connection to Tiana earlier on rather than having them only interact and fight near the end, which could work but then you might have to balance that between the real important stuff, that being Tiana character goals and relationships and growth with Naveen, Lottie, etc. and like... I would find really bringing more of the good parts and reworking how the script beats marriage and crap on Tiana more valuable than trying to make Facilier to work. But idk maybe if a writer could get both to happen that'd be cool too. Just prioritize the really good stuff first and foremost than just the villain stuff people seem so hung up for these days. -_-
idk I hope whenever Tiana's story gets revisited, they are able to polish it more. Tiana is beloved and deserves so much good things. :,)
i watched the princess and the frog the first time, as an adult not too long ago. i feel like tiana and others like mulan are shoved into a romance just for the hell of it. i wish they expanded on their self fulfilling journeys and backstories rather than some meaningless romance. i also wish tiana didnt spend most of the movie as a frog. i wish it was a bit more realistic.
I actually really liked the parts of the movie where they werent frogs. I hate that disney made almost every non white character an animal at some point of the story. loved the characters and music but the story was kind of eh.
Their choice in how they go about the black princess(es) is so weird compared to how they treat white and other none white princess stories
Moana - let’s set this Polynesian story in Hawaii where they’re chiefs and voyagers and incorporate Hawaiian myth.
Brave - let’s set sn original story it in a free Scotland where they’re monarchs and warriors.
Mulan - let’s tell a myth about a powerful Chinese warrior woman from China.
Princess and the Frog- Let’s base this off of a European fairytale and set it in the Jim Crow era when most black people endured heavy discrimination and black women were mainly stuck in domestic work! And make it the only one set in fairly modern times.
LM and Tinkerbell - let’s just race swap these characters we’ve been marketing a certain way for 30+ years, call it black empowerment and then play both sides of the fence which version to sell.
So weird. Africa and the Caribbean exist and there are so many myths and fascinating kingdoms to chose from. There’s a dragon slaying princess called thakane in one of them! That’s a better basis for a film than this
This is my favourite movie ❤
I know it has problems but I still love it
tnx for having warning for flashing lights
1:28 I loved both Films. Since I'm Jewish the prince of Egypt holds a special in my heart the music the animation the story and the conflict between Moses and Pharoah its all amazing (the burning bush scene still gives me goosebumps to this day) and Shrek is Hilarious the fact that this film only exists spite Disney is absolutely amazing to me! But I do hope you talk about The Prince of Egypt someday since it's a film that me and my family enjoy alot.
Regarding Princess Mononoke, do you like the film or you consider that is overpraised by all the fantasy anime nerds. Also, what about other Studio Ghibli films like Spirited Away or The tale of princess Kaguya ?
I’m glad I’m not the only one who wants her to make a video on princess mononoke
It's a fine movie, but it's telling when a "Animation needs to be more mature" nerd says this is their favourite Ghibli movie or something like Grave of the Fireflies or Only Yesterday, I find that very telling about their actual priorities.
@@LilianOrchard I personally think that is a mediocre movie and the comedy movie ran (1975) was a lot more effective the it.
as for tales of earthsea... it's more of a fine mess. a few good ideas fighting for space in a sea underdeveloped ones.
I do like how Disney is definitely creatively free-er because they got to make films that explored concepts ex: Inside Out & Soul.
Those are Pixar.
@@ThePrincessCH yes, they are Disney / Pixar Films.
@@chaosdiamonds5464 Pixar is technically treated as a separate entity from Disney. I once saw an interview where the people from the "How To Train Your Dragon" mention that the people charged with its TV show are considered separate businesses.
I'm trying so hard I want the single frame text
I love your vids.
Just asking about all the stuff you bring up about your past, how are you doing now?
Great
Disney villains have their place in everything but Disney movies.
Oh my God the middle part of the video has me crying for some reason... in a good way...
Could you please make a video explaining Dr. Facilier's role?
(Honestly I never thought of him as unnecessary before, but this idea 11:44 makes me want to work him back in)
I don't know why so many people are so unwilling to let this guy go.
i also never understood why so many people are obcessed with villains and animation styles. And im an animator!!!!
They're obsessed with villains because they think it makes them look edgy to prefer villains over heroes. Literally "I'm not like other girls."
As for animation styles, animation nerds are deranged.
@@LilianOrchard i actually keep procrastinating on watching the new spider man animated movies because 80% of the compliments these movies get online are about the animation so it makes me think that the story isnt very good. Also ofc the whole "hEy sincE yOu'rE a 3D aniMator yOu hAve tO wAtch tHe sPider Man mOvies" is annoying
@@SonicTheHedgehog-yc6yv The stories in the movies are great, its just that online animation people filate the animation because its unique compared to disney and dreamwork's output.
@@LilianOrchardI love Villains in stories because of how enjoyable they can be just handle them will and keep them consistent like Frieza in Planet Namek Saga has to be one of the most entertaining elements of the story that's why Toriyama keeps bringing him back every other arc have you seen black Frieza?😂😂😂
I'm Breon I'm 15 and I'm working on an animated movie project for Disney : A Los angles Love story, can u help??
I love your analysis. Thank you.
love the video Lily thank u
Remembering you dive into Disney movies, and the Princess and the Frog episode in general, i think I agree. I’d love a movie with Doctor Facilier, but this movie doesn’t need it. If adding a Disney villain makes the movie worse, then maybe we don’t need a villain.
Besides, we already have a villain for this should-be-poly group of characters ready to go; Society. We have Naviens parents, sick of him being a “playboy.” Laudie’s dad, who’s overprotective and spoiling her with his 1920 Old Southerners money. And Tiana’s mom, whose married to family values and mourning her husband. Just write that movie, Disney; fuck, a conservative Tenth of online fanfiction is sitting there as inspiration, and you have paid writers to polish those scripts.
Tiana’s the best Disney princess hands down and no one will tell me otherwise.
Ugh, I love this so much! I agree with many of the points here -- it might be a fun excercise to retool the script for any Black writers + editors who have time to do so. I remember looking up who the script writers were to some research on the movie, and if iirc it was 7 men and only 1 Black person amongst them. Could mean nothing but I feel that it might have influenced what the themes of movie were (assuming the writers were also cishet).
Unconcious biases color your creative work, so this is why you should have ppl to look over it to catch things you miss. Again, fun retooling excercise. Awesome video, yall
I definitely really loved Princess and the Frog.
I really believe that's what they were trying to do have her understand that she needs these people because ultimately it can help her get what she wants but what she needs is connection but it sounds weird when you say it that way so I think they just became a little tone-deaf with that on top Disney being up their own ass about Traditions versus subversion but I still feel like they were going in the right direction because I can see what you're talking about in the movie itself without your contacts but it just makes it Shine all the more with your contacts anyway yeah I agree that it's there but that unfortunately it's muddled under Disney logic as I like to say
Holy shit, is that a Zero Punctuation/ The Escapist bit? Nice
Hey if you like musicals (stage ones not movies ones) I have two to suggest to you.
1: is Matilda the musical (especially if you like the movie).
2: is ride the cyclone about a fortune telling machine using his dying wish to save one of six children that he wasn’t able to warn about their death on the cyclone roller coaster. (Before you ask they’re only enough power to save one). I think you will Connie Blackwood, she has a very Cinderella vibe to her and you want to give her a hug because she has really low self esteem.
They’re also Jane Doe, the most tragic character of the whole musical. Do her being a Jane Doe she has no memories of her life before her death and there are moments where she acts a little like a little kid and it’s adorable especially because she has sort of waddle to her walk at times.
The other kids are Noel the only guy boy in town who romanticizes tragedy, the only other girl Ocean who is an over achiever partly because she her parents attention but they still ignore her (she’s a bit like Amity before her redemption near the end of season one though she does get her own), Mischa a Ukrainian boy who got adopted out because his mom was dying and she wanted to keep her son safe and his adopted parents suck and Ricky a disabled boy who mostly lived in his mind because of his disability (part of his condition cased him to be mute) and in the original version of the show when he dies he is able to speak and walk with out his crutches.
Wow I didn't once mention musicals nor did I ask.
Sorry
@@kaitlinowens2714Don't be. I can see she enjoys mocking people for engaging with her content "the wrong way". I can only assume she and some of her audience are just into that dynamic 😄 We get it, Lily's a bad bitch lol
yeah avatar was weird like really popular but theirs no real fandom for it.
The single frame about black women really made me smile hard. As a black woman, thanks for making my afternoon a little happier
4:55 Shade has been thrown.
Ok from the last video and this. I saw your a zero punctuation fan. And I like.
I’m one who LOVED princess and the frog because the idea of finally having black representation being a Disney princess just brings me joy.
At the same time I do have loads of issues with the movie. My main issue was having the only black princess, at the time, spend the majority of her movie as a frog. They didn’t have to do that but ok.
I completely understand having magical elements to the story but it is a slap in the face to have the first black princess spend most of the movie as a frog.
My other issue is definitely with how the movie treated her as if she was the one who had to change when nothing was wrong with her. Though you explained that very well.
My third issue is less with the movie n more with those watching it. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to burst the bubbles of some white people by telling them the reason why the realtor brothers didn’t sell her the restaurant at first was because she’s black. Like… in that time period where they clearly show the segregation with housing n those men saying “a woman of your background” what other reason could it have possibly been?
Lastly I personally don’t see Charolette as a good friend. Simply because this shouldn’t have been the first time she paid Tiana to cater if she really cared and what she said at the end about Niven’s kid brother rubbed me the wrong way.
Tiana was way too proud to accept money from others, and Lottie DEFINITELY overpaid that catering gig
@@disgustof-riley8338 yeahhh I don’t think Lottie did that cuz she was aiming to help Tiana at the moment. I think it was a mix of her trying to achieve her own goal (getting the prince’s attention through food) and the fact she’s a spoiled princess who doesn’t understand money.
I could see why Tianas mom wanted babies. This was the 1920s wasn't WW1 right around the corner. No to mention the end of slavery wasn't all that long ago, time for black business in America.
Hii, I really enjoy your videos! Thanks! Would you like to talk about Ghibli movies as well? I woukd love to hear your opinion.
I still wish she would make fun five chapter stories on her ideas I read her star wars story and wish for more😊 I don’t know how to do emojis sorry if I used the wrong one
I know it's not super important, but the blink and you’ll miss it walls of text were a little distracting just because they blipped in and out about six times throughout the video. In previous videoes I would pause and try to get to the exact right second to read it, but here it's barely even possible and I didn't bother wasting time to try. Maybe I was so distracted because my misokinesia somehow gets caught up in quick cuts, I dunno. You don't have to even consider it, but maybe just leave those parts out since most people won’t even try to read it if it's that fast?
Sometimes I do things just for me. If it's that fast, you don't need to.
Wait- is there an issue with Schaff? He seems like a pretty chill guy
just because someone disagrees with the opinions he holds and/or talks about him in a negative light doesn't automatically mean he's a bad person and problematic in some way i thought this was like common sense
@@lousoups I was asking if there was an issue with him btw!! Not saying there was one, there's a difference
Nah he's just shit as his job
He made a video complaining about when there will be “real villains” in Disney movies again even though it’s unnecessary and various bad takes.
His content is just super mediocre
Speaking of editing, there are at least three occasions where text seems to appear on screen for a 1/3 of a second. Would you mind redoing the video so we can see the text?
No
Bro this movie was amazing and was completely and utterly beautiful with its characters the songs the romance the villain the plots and the Romantic pairing which is absolutely amazing combining both sides of work hard and play hard as titana was more focused on achieving her fathers dream she was working herself too hard and wasn’t leaving any time for her to enjoy anything where is the Prince was completely and utterly lack of responsibilities lived his whole life as a free person never having to worry about those troubles which is both equally bad
Completely missing The entire point of the film which is that yes it’s important to have dreams and work on them but it’s awesome important that you don’t work too hard on those dreams and completely ignore everything else in your life you’re trying to make this song in depth thing about how it’s so bad and so much deeper than it is when it isn’t it’s an amazing movie you just dislike it and you’re trying to find a deep Cilla Kwei to do reason using facts and evidence and has a deep meaning within when really it’s a Childs movie it’s not deep it’s fun stop it you’re making it more deep than it is in an attempt to try and validate why you hate it yeah you can hide it but it’s not because of this deep shit which doesn’t even exist it’s because you just dislike the movie
And they never said she should give up on her dreams so she can just get married that was number one said it’s simply saying that you shouldn’t overwork yourself to the point where you’ve only focused on that because that’s a shitty life to live
Lily. i need my star wars prequel video. You're one of the only people that think they're amazing (likely for its political inspirations) but i wanna hear from you
@@wisdommanari6701 she didnt make a full one though. Like it was always in those glass of water videos
😊 didn’t enjoy it at all and they say their staying frogs than they become human again
I hate that you slide in subliminal side notes that I cant even read or catch at ×0.25 speed! Stop that!
EXACTLY!!! I've tried to read them 5 separate times to NO AVAIL
6:49
is it just me or does UA-cam seem uncertain if this channel exists at all? try to open the channel to find something cool to watch and get a 404 type web error open it through opening a video prior and/ or through the spot where the site lists the channels you're subscribed to and no problem at all...
Shrodinger's Trans Women
@@LilianOrchard fabulous response
Hmmm...make Shadowman a jealous loser who thinks 'buying Tiana's love' is the way to 'win' her, turning Naveen into the frog because he sees him as a threat. There's your villain, good night everybody!
That's garbage, let's just not have a villain instead
Meh I guess it's alright
"Facelier isn't necessary" Well that's true, but hey, let's not ignore the whole, yanno, "insanely derogatory depiction of an actual religion" thing he has going. Like goodness gracious.
The video was about Tiana
Another good one, I love stories about others being inspired by people in their life. Some people in the world just passively uplift people and it’s great to see it better someone. I can’t stand that I have to take care and make them better love stories. We should not marry our mothers or a caretaker. Can’t wait to see you next video. Have a nice day.❤
lily has a Gardevoirite necklace why/how did I not notice this before??
You might like Shikimori's Not Just a Cutie. It's a romance anime with literally no plot or drama; just two dorks being happy together while the side characters quip nonstop.
I didn't ask for recommendations. Especially not for anime.
Just rework Dr. Facilier. He's too good conceptually (and in om-screen execution) to cut, and there's all kinds of ways he could more directly interact with the protagonist and be less unnecessary. I mean shit, why not have a scene where he's trying to tempt one of Tiana's friends, but all they want is for her to succeed and it ends up backfiring?
You remember that thing I said about the Loa basically being Q? Facilier is literally just Baron Samedi in design. So just make that character Baron Samedi.
@@LilianOrchard No clue who that is. I'll just take your word for it.
He's the Loa of Death that Facilier is based on
@@LilianOrchard but if he was baron samedi how would he have died in the movie????
@@abam9813 oh
One thing I was surprised by was that you didn't mention some of the problematic aspects of the film, largely revolving around the romanticization of Jazz Age New Orleans and the stereotypical depiction of the Voduo religion through the character of Dr. Facilier.
That's because the video was about Tiana
@@LilianOrchard Ah, okay.
I really like this movie and Tiana specifically. Makes me wanna write gay cuddle fanfic of it
Also the three of them should be in a throuple.
also also, i feel like they could just have shadow man be in a remake and just, not have him be a villain? I don't know I'll have to think about this some more but there's something there