Accolades mean nothing and using them as arguments when comparing or evaluating players shows ignorance. Similar thing with stats Stats without context mean literally nothing
My hot take Oscar robertson is extremely overrated, he put up stats that were achieved by a current player that most don’t even consider top five pg (Russ) in the same era where wilt is sometimes discredited for playing against plumbers.
Larry Bird being a top 10 player of all time is something people nowadays see as a hot take but it is simply true. Saying Bird is better than either Tatum or KD is another thing that is simply true
Fr people always cut him out to make room for Curry. Like bruh Curry in the top 15 range and thats okay. Those people talking about top 10 and especially top 5 need to calm down
Duncan was a PF/C. The other greatest centers were exclusively centers _(Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Olajuwon, Shaq, Moses)._ The other greatest PFs were exclusively PFs _(with the exception of Kevin Garnett, who Duncan is probably most similar to)._ So it makes sense to compare Duncan to either power forwards or centers. Duncan also played with plenty of other big men on the floor with him, sometimes guarding the other team's center, sometimes guarding their PF. I think you can reasonably call him either one; he was more of a big man at large than either position specifically. I didn't realize Paul Pierce got a lot of flak for saying he was similar to D Wade. He definitely was. Wade was better on D and a better playmaker but Pierce was a better scorer. I'd take Wade if I had to pick between the two, but not by a lot. I don't know if Bird was really _elite_ on D per se, but he was definitely solid. He made a couple of all-defense teams and he was a tenacious scrapper with a huge IQ. It's why I think he was probably a better player than Magic.
Duncan and Garnett’s styles were decently different from one another actually. On both ends of the floor. But Garnett spent 67% of his time at PF in the regular season and 60% in the playoffs. While Duncan was 36% and 29% respectively.
Also Duncan kept playing as PF for many years well beyond David Robinson's retirement yet he kept using that as the main reason he was shifted to PF lol. Bad take from the video guy
@@owensmith2137as a one on one defender he’s good-great in his prime. But as a help defender he might be the best ever in his prime. Larry Bird was always a great help defender because of his IQ. Imagine Larry bird level IQ with some of the best athleticism ever seen from a man that’s 6’8. I believe there were articles during the heat era that it was such a difficult defense to replicate because Lebron was such an anomaly with switching and help defense. How fast he could cover ground and effect everything.
Larry Bird was great at all aspects of basketball. Including defense, he played good defense against Nique, Worthy, Salley, and any forward they pitted him against. He was a great rebounder, played the passing lanes for steals and made scoring difficult for opponents.
Bird is one those players that you'd have see play in real time in order to believe it. 1/2 of current NBA fans never had that luxury Birds game doesnt translate to UA-cam & Google stats that well he was a pest & extremely smart. And I hated him
Duncan was a power forward because that was his preferred position as he's said multiple times the only reason he played any center through the years was because the team asked him to and since he's a team first player he accepted
Great point. Aother thing to consider is how much success he had in those 9 seasons as a PF. When comparing that to KG, Dirk, Karl, etc, it's not even close. Tim is still the GOAT PF.
Hot take that should not be hot: Any player that fell within the top 50 range but not make the top 10 of all time or even top 20 are still considered all time greats within the 75 years of NBA history. Fans do tend to get a bit obsessed with the top 10 list of time a tad bit too much but have a tendency to forget other players outside the top 10 or even top 20 players of all time. New players will come in and challenge for the top 10 list as older players fades into obscurity. My point is, try to take the time to appreciate players who are great and exceptional players but couldn't make it to the top 10 list of all time.
Duncan was a PF in the starting lineups from 97-12, as he got older he moved to center, but Robinson, Oberto, Mohammed, and Mcdyess all played center in those years
Doesn't make duncan a PF, he was a C in a 2x C lineup just like the Rockets twin towers of Hakeem and Sampson. Everyone knew they were two C's playing together, but Pop pushed the narrative of Duncan being a PF when he was always a C in a 2x C lineup. I cant say Pop could foresee being listed as PF would have been more beneficial for Ducnans legacy, but he really wanted that to stick
@@HailKingCeezer Duncan won most of his team and individual accolades when he was the definitive PF of the spurs. No matter how you slice it he’s the greatest PF ever no matter how you short he played that position.
@@HailKingCeezerFacts Pop actually was Smart and didn't change the system he came into the league playing and had success in when Robinson retired. All those traditional centers he played with Had the title on line up roster, but minutes wise none of them played starter mins Antonio McDyess came close but was often injured.
I think the problem with the Pierce thing was that he's a real dude, and the TV shows (like the one he was on) perpetuate drama and gossip. So when they ask a real dude like him a stupid question, he's not gonna give the politically correct answer, of course he's just gonna say himself. In the environment he's from anything else would come off cowardly. Now, he could have handled it a little more intelligently and maturely, but it's not like he just went on TV and blurted it out, they freakin asked him! The question was a set up, knowing that Pierce is a very confident guy who's not gonna be humble, especially when it comes to a rival like D Wade. I'm glad you made this video bc so many kids that weren't old enough to see him play think Pierce was some kind of scrub. Dude is a 1st ballot HOF! Maybe not as good as Wade but it's not like fucking Ben Simmons comparing himself to Jordan or some outrageous shit like that
I really appreciate this Paul Pierce take. I definitely feel like Wade was better because he was a great defender. But Pierce is one of the best offensive players ever and was one of the best 3pt shooters of his era. He was also incredibly clutch. He played on terrible teams most of his career but we saw what he could do with help at age 30. Imagine him and KG together at age 25.
Wade had a similar team in 09 to pierce in his early years and was 3rd in MVP voting and averaged 30 on 49% from the field. PP was never as efficient as Wade yet Wade matched his scoring. How can he be better?
The amount of discredit to Larry Bird's career that I've seen recently on the Internet is absolutely unbelievable^ It really put into perspective for me how one's achievements, legacy and history can so easily be prone to revisionism.
I think people forget how differently the game was officiated in bird's era, if you just go off the highlights obviously players like kd and Tatum look alot smoother and faster, but in the 80s they probably would've been subject to more travel or carry calls and struggled to deal with the lack of spacing (keep in mind they probably would've been used in the midrange and inside mostly), birds lack of conventional athleticism and strength were much better suited for the time
So did Hakeem, in 7'4 Ralph Sampson & 7' Kevin Willis ( Who play center for several NBA teams) also Ottis Thorpe who was a Monster of a man physically.
Pop never switched from the two center system that T.D came up in when Robinson was there they had too much success. None of those so called traditional centers after Robinson played Starter minutes. Hence why Manu got Starter minutes while being the 6th man.
@@charlestucker7955 Not really into arguing for the sake & sport of arguing.Discussion sure, but I'll pass on bait its just over done. The Skip Bayless & Steven A. Mimicking over saturates the Internet. In other words I don't wanna role play thanks.
i completely agree on the paul pierce take. its absurd how much he's getting clowned when he has every right to say that. its part of being a competitor. all that seperates them is accomplishments. who had the better career? dwayne wade obviously when its all said and done. but as players? thats definitely a conversation to be had.
Wade is a full tier Ahead of Pierce. Anyone that actually hoops can easily tell Wade is on another level then Pierce. Paul doesn't have the intangibles Flash had. He would never be able to lead that 06 Heat to the Championship
@@MistahJay7Pierce led the trash 2002 Boston Celtics to conference finals! Why do you think Shaq called him the truth? Also one of the first players to Utilize the step back jumper ! and as soon he gets helpful teammates … he wins a championships & beats lebron head 2 head in a game 7 2008 performance! Then was a KG injury from a repeat trip to the 2009 finals! In 2010 he was 1 game away from his 2nd ring vs Kobe. In 2011 he forced the new lebron / wade Miami Heat favorites to 7 games! Pierce also has one of the most made game winners shots in nba history! Show respect !!!
@MistahJay7 you need to go back and watch 2000s basketball and give both players a fair shake. wade has his flaws just as much as pierce has his. don't make me go degrade a great player to make my argument bro.
@MistahJay7 we can talk about wades mediocre perimeter shooting. we can talk about the simple fact wade played with far better teams. I dont wanna get into this but you wanna disrespect a guy thats arguably the best scorer of the 2000s
@MistahJay7 I've played ball before. in fact you do not need to play basketball to be good at the eye test. both great players. if wade is a tier ahead of pierce entirely then what tier is that bro? I'm not putting wade up there with Jordan. that's fuckin absurd.
Another one I have for bird is that he was a better individual player than magic, but magic takes the all time spot over him simply because he had the better career. Magic was lucky he played with so many of the top players in nba history. He also played in the weakest conference the league will ever see. But bird did everything magic did but more. Bird could playmake like magic and also play good transition basketball if he needed. Bird was also a far better shooter, rebounder, and defender than magic who you could consider a liability. Magic was notorious for playing games and not even committing a single foul
I disagree entirely, but you deserve to have an opinion. Magic won FMVP as a rookie. To argue Magic was lucky to play with HOFers but not even acknowledging Bird was also lucky to play with HOFers is where I cannot take your opinion seriously. The individual skill for skill argument is also a wash and sunjective. Objectively, both had their margins, but Magic has an argument for greatest playmaker of all time. Bird does not.
@@cameronno6039Birds hall of famers were nobodies without Bird, that's the difference. Bird went to a team that had 29 wins, and with the addition of Bird only they got 61 wins. This was before McHale or Parish where even there. Then the next year, McHale's rookie year who was a soso player at the time, Bird still won the championship.
@@cameronno6039Bird was very similar in quality but not quantity as he didn't play PG. Watching their passes both were very close in skill. As for the FMVP arguement. The only reason Magic won is the finals game. Kareem outplayed him that entire series. Magic had a prime Kareem who's margins better than any of Birds teammates.
Timmy usually closes as a center but always starts at the 4 unless it was a drastic change.Tbf it's really difficult to identify what an ideal power foward is, especially nowadays. If we take away the fact that timmy was the greatest power foward of all time, then the conversation can change from Dirk to Bird or Barkley to Malone.
I appreciate you talking about Bird’s defense. If people still aren’t convinced here are 2 more things to consider: 1. You don’t retire as the all time leader in steals for the team you played for if you’re not a great defender. 2. Barring Lebron’s chase down block in 2016, you don’t make the greatest defensive play in NBA playoff history if you’re not a great defender.
@@javigar133no, that block was nearly impossible to time. That block was far more difficult to do for a physical and athletic standpoint. The speed, angle necessary. in the biggest moment of the NBA (the finals). Where if they score that probably wins them the game.
If LeBron block wasnt in a game 7, it would drop behind Tayshaun Princes block of Reggie Miller. It was more impressive as no one stood between Reggie and the Basket. You have to re-watch it at least twice just to even see where Tayshaun comes into frame.
Dan Majerle was also an all-star and was on the 1994 USA FIBA team, he was a talented player and solid enough to be a 2nd to 4th option on a championship team. I think he'd be a champion of Barkley didn't hurt his foot (or was it knee?) in 93, they had a good 1-3 options with those two and Kevin Johnson.
Tim Duncan would be a center in today's game. The 90s and early 00s usually featured 2 traditional big men. The power forward would be expected to hit a mid range shot and be a little more diversified on defense. Now a "stretch 4" is a bigger wing player who can knock down 3s and guard 1-4.
Yup Pierce averaged 34 for a 10 week span in 05-06 and Boston (a poor team outside of Pierce) ripped off 10 wins in 11 games purely due to Pierce’s insane play. He scored 30+ in 9 of those 10 wins. For a Boston fan with little to cheer about it was captivating watching that perplexing win streak go down. Pierce was 100% a top 8 player in the league for his prime. I recently read some old Bill Simmons page two ESPN stuff and in spring 2006 Simmons made a compelling case that Pierce was the 3rd most valuable player in the league behind only LeBron and Kobe - and he gives plenty of evidence it’s not just some homer take of his. I’ve read plenty of Simmons and know when he’s being a homer. Simmons himself trashed Pierce in ‘04 for his bad attitude and uninspiring play, but in this piece he convincingly wrote how Pierce realized he was stuck in Boston for better or worse and went all in on the team. (It’s a great read and I highly recommend googling it if you’re a Pierce fan it’s not hard to find.) The gap between Pierce and early/mid 2000s 1B level guys (Dirk/Wade/Iverson/Nash/TMac) is so extraordinarily slim that it’s more accurate to group Pierce in 1B than it is to drop him into tier 2 with guys like John Wall and Amare. (The only three early/mid 2000s 1A tier guys: LBJ, Kobe, and Shaq). Pierce led his team in points rebounds AND assists in ‘03-‘04 and 05-06.* Also, as far as the Wade/Pierce swap PP would have been a better fit next to LBJ. Miami’s half court offense was more than a little suspect those first two Miami years before Ray Ray switched sides. Sure you lose a little of DWade’s playmaking and open court offense with the swap but Pierce’s shooting and versatile 3 level scoring would have done wonders for Miami’s bogged down half court offense especially in the playoffs. On defense LBJ could have gambled and blitzed screens more on defense with a big swing guard out there who can contest in the paint, switch 2-4, and stay in front of most PGs for at least a few possessions. Pierce was a good if not great defender/defensive rebounder and a definite net positive on that end up until ~2012 when quick guys beat him more often than not. And it’s always worth mentioning when discussing Pierce that in the fall of ‘00 he was the victim of a violent attack wherein he was stabbed 8 times and had a beer bottle broken over his eye socket (for basically no reason besides trying to chat up a girl at a bar) just 8 weeks before the 00-01 season and still played every single game. Dude was a tough mf. (Side note: Celtics center Tony Battie saved PP’s life by carrying a blood soaked Pierce to his car and speeding to a nearby hospital.) Ok that’s enough defending The Truth’s basketball honor… for one night anyway.
I'm a Celtic hater but I got Pierce neck and neck with Wade, he's got to be one of the most underrated players of the last 20 years. He is absolutely in the top tier wing players of his generation
Pierce the Truth .. a mix of prime Carmelo and Harden AND actually won . Put respect on bro name .. literally has one of the coldest NBA moments #ever vs Harrington
I think that longevity gets way too much priority when evaluating players. I don't just mean for the MJ/Bron comparisons, but the fact that guys like Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, Yao Ming, Penny Hardaway, TMac, etc are rarely viewed as top choices at their position, even though their talent landed them comfortably as top players of their era (and often better than players who had longer careers)
I disagree. Longevity had a major impact on their legacy. Lot of guys have had a good 3 years. Not a lot have had a great 13+ it’s a feat in itself and it matters.
I think it was too early to tell for Grant. I loved Yao when he played, he actually had skills and wasn’t just big. TMac was disappointing in the playoffs and was injury riddled so I see why that happened like it did. B Roy would have went down as a top 5 shooting guard all time and I do believe that. He was like D Wade in a sense. Idk too much about Penny so I can’t comment on that
Only when it’s relevant to a close longevity comparison, or when you’re specifically talking about young players who didn’t get the opportunity to get to their prime
Downplaying longevity does seem like you’re targeting a certain player. But it absolutely matters because longevity is what leads to those great careers (Jordan, Lebron, Kareem). Players should be praised for what they did accomplish and not based on hypotheticals.
At the end of the day the single most important thing a player can do, and their only job is, to contribute to winning. Ultimately, winning a championship. If a player has a phenomenal peak but only was able to sustain it for a few years (whether that be due to injuries, aging, or anything) and another player had a slightly less impressive peak, but sustained their peak for much longer, then the odds are that the player who played longer contributed more. Ben Taylor with backpicks has a whole article and podcast series that goes extremely in depth, with the goal of quantifying a players impact to winning. I highly suggest you read it "backpicks top 40" is what you should search. I think most people, and myself included should typically consider a players "greatness" based on their peak and career contributions as a whole. If you were only looking at who was the best, purely respective to their peaks, that's a different list. Longevity is extremely important.
I mean, you can classify Timmy as both. He spent half of his career and more of his prime years at the position. I think the fact that he would step out a bit definitely contributed to putting him in the PF convo. Also yes please on the Bird take. I am so sick of people putting him below Steph.
@@jaketerpening3284 no it just shows that Steph is that dominant of an offensive player, when you can literally force the entire league to change their offensive ideology and win multiple rings with it you deserve top ten status
I think Larry Bird was just as good of a passer as Magic Johnson. I do consider Magic the better passer simply due to the greater volume of passing and the fact that he kind of ran the Lakers offense with his passing. However, in terms of just passing skill, they were pretty close. They were both able to make incredibly creative and effective passes and made their teammates so much better. I think the reason most people(including myself) consider Magic to be a better passer than Larry Bird has to do more with the role he played on his team rather than him being a much more skilled passer than Bird.
Well, the difference is their playmaking. Their passing ability was very close, but Magic imo has the slight edge. But Magic was clearly the better playmaker. One of the reasons why Magic could play more of an on ball role than bird is because Magic was a better ball handler and driver. Bird thrived more playoff off the ball. And a lot of his best passes were touch passes.
Tbf, most people only see Bird during his twilight years when he was at his worst defensively and athletically. Dude can't even run without stretching and massaging for hours. Bird could move pretty well before his back injury and dude was definitely athletic
Bird said that he was ready to give the mantle up to Len Bias after he got drafted because his injuries and back was taking its toll. Unfortunately, Bias went and got coked beyond belief and killed himself literally that night or the day after. Bird would've chopped a 1/3 of his career off had Bias came in and did what people thought he was gonna do.
After robinson came nesterovich, oberto, elson, splitter that played next to duncan, woukd you call any of them a pf? When comparing between eras i always like to look at how many first team all nba a olayer has made, besides playoff success offcourse. Bird made it 9 times, durant 6 and curry 4 times.
while i understand why you do that competition at the position also matters, when it comes to pg's and small forwards I think curry and kd had more competition at those spots in their eras than bird. Not downplaying bird's greatness just giving some context.
@@samraizshoaib585rodman, Dominique Wilkins, Karl Malone , pippen. So bird didn't play vs any of these guys head to head huh? Also pippen and rodman are 2 of the best on ball defenders at both PF and SF in a era that guys played man to man defense.
All NBA's are great, definitely better than all stars and generally objective, but you do have years like this past one where the guy who had the best regular season in the league is second team.
concerning Bird's defense- one must also consider his era. He played in era of physical man-defense, not soft zone like what we have now. his skill set, relying more on thinking the game out rather than on athleticism, would translate better to the modern era. He would actually perform better now then when he played.
@@mosstwig3591yeah, he actually benefited by not being as athletic in an era you can use hand checks to slow defenses down, and a center dominated era that makes the paint highly congested. He would do good in early 2000s era when the pace was slow and spacing was awful. This era he just would not be able to do anything against speedy PG/SGs due to the inability to hand check to slow them down and having to move through screens. The spacing in this era is a detriment to unathletic players which is why practically EVERY center shoots the 3 or mid range now to have something to help if they are clunkier on defense.
Nope. It's way easier to defend back then, especially with Hand checking and with no flagrant fouls. Him being unathletic benefitted those rules the most. You can just place your hand to your defender, guide him to your comfortable space and then clobber him to stop going to the paint. It's harder to play defense right now, especially with more playstyles run by a team, no hand-checking, quicker and more athletic guys, plus a softer whistle by refs with a flagrant foul that can cost you a game. Look at guys like Luka, Jokic, who are unathletic by NBA standards. They are never known to play good defense. Larry would be the same if he played right now. He would benefit for the softer defense with his offensive bag, but at the cost of having a subpar defensive output.
Excellent video! So I still do the Duncan as a PF but completely hear what your saying. I put KG as best PF if Duncan is considered a center (edging out The Mailman). The Pierce Wade debate is extremely close and I actually lean towards Pierce honestly. Pierce is definitely forgotten on how elite he really was. And again, i agree with you on Bird being a much better defensive player than often credited. Love the takes Jonny!
I had to compare Pierce and Wade's resumes. I at first thought your hot take was ridiculous, but I didn't realize how efficient in scoring Pierce was in his prime. I still think Pierce overrates himself compared to Wade, but his scoring efficiency does make me reconsider if I was wrong all this time.
Pierce was the 2nd best small forward from 2005 to 2011. He usually outplayed Melo when they matched up and went head to head with Lebron James in the playoff.
After Robinson retired, the Spurs still had the twin towers approach with Rasho Nestrovic and Oberto. It was 08-09 when they moved Duncan to center with the lineup having the most minutes has Bonner at PF then the following years Mcdyess, and finally Blair. They then went back with the two big approach with Splitter. The only year Splitter was listed at PF was 12-13 and that is the only year Duncan has an All NBA selection as a center.
I mean the reason we dont list lebron as one of the best small forwards is cause he has like 3 seasons at power forward. If lebron played about half his career listed as a power forward with his best years being at power forward we’d call him a power forward.
Even though Duncan was designated as a Center, his role on offense and defense were more of a PF. There’s a reason why the Spurs always paired Duncan with another big in the paint to take on some of the defensive load against the other bigs. They always got other centers like Mohammed Nazr, Oberto Fabricio, Tiago Splitter. While on defense he certainly played and had responsibilities more aligned like a traditional center, Duncan was a natural at PF and it made basketball sense in the 00’s.
Awesome video as always, especially that take on Pierce, people don't know him in his prime (mostly due to his dumb takes nowadays but still). Also my hot take that shouldn't be hot at all is that Lebron James is a good to great defender throughout his entire career, and in his prime he's one of the best defender ever.
LeBron is a great defender in his 1st stint with the Cavs till Miami. He suddenly lost his defensive drive when he came back to the Cavs. We saw flashes of those days, during crucial moments but was never the same especially during his Miami days where he played his best defensive seasons.
He's a good to great defender, but nowhere near the best. Jordan is way better and I don't think Jordan is the greatest defender of all time. Jordan is top 4 in steals all time despite playing only 16 years. LeBron has played 20 seasons and is top 8. There is about a 300 steal difference between them. Jordan has a better block rate as well.
My hot takes: 1. Kobe Bryant was not an inefficient player. When looking at true shooting percentage and comparing him to guys like Tim Duncan, he's on par with most other greats. 2. A legitimate argument can be made that Larry Bird is the greatest overall player ever in terms of being good to great at every aspect of basketball. To be clear, he did not have the greatest career of all time, I'm talking about strictly in terms of basketball ability. 3. What Steve Nash did for the Suns is no different than what Jason Kidd did for the Nets. But for some reason, Nash got constant recognition for it while Kidd got largely overlooked in the MVP talks. The main reason Nash won it was because of team turnaround once he got to Phoenix, but the same argument can be made for Kidd. 4. The 1998 Pacers are one of the greatest basketball teams ever.
1. I agree. 2. MJ did that even better. 3. I agree. The gap between Nash and Kidd in terms of impact is not much. Kidd was arguably more impactful as he was a terrific defender and rebounder and actually took a team to the NBA Finals. 4. Possibly, but I can't say either way.
@@dynamicflashy Thanks! Regarding #2... Did he, though? Shooting, rebounding, passing? Again, no questions asked for me that Jordan is the GOAT. I'm NOT arguing Bird as ths GOAT. But I'm talking specifically about basketball skill and skill alone. However, I wouldn't be mad at someone picking Jordan in this as well.
Tim Duncan as a Center, is still one of the best centers ever, not the best, but with his resume, team success and defensive quality he's up there for sure
The question in the original segment was “who had a better career?” Not who was more talented. All hall of fame players will be extraordinarily talented so someone like Kobe can still have a tough matchup with someone like Tmac on any given night. But in terms of career accomplishments, Wade-pierce is much less close
Even though the gap between Paul pierce and d-wade is exaggerated, I still think d wade has a huge edge over him and it’s not really comparable. Paul pierce brings up the fact that d wade had Chris Bosh and Lebron, and that if he had those stars he would have won more rings than d wade, which is almost laughable in my eyes. Dwayne wade in 2011 played far better than not just everyone else on the court (even though dirk certainly has an argument), he far exceeded Paul pierces production in the 08 and 2010 finals. Dwayne wades worst finals series for the heat came in 2013 and 2014, when he was battling knee injuries, while still managing to bring defensive production only slightly outmatched by Paul pierces in the 08 and 2010 finals, where he was the primary defender on Kobe, but I think ray Allen could have played that role in a similar fashion, as the Celtics help defense was really what slowed Kobe down in those series. On top of all that, those weren’t even Dwayne wades legacy defining moments, and Dwayne wade in the 06 finals accomplished something that Paul pierce cannot even imagine doing, and in his 08-09, and 09-10 regular season performances, showed a higher level of scoring than Paul pierce has ever had and elevated his team far more than Paul pierce did in his prime years. Even though the gap is certainly exaggerated by most basketball fans, d wade still has the edge by a large amount.
COOK. Pierce is no where near Flashs level. Comparing them is complete and utter disrespect to Prime Wade. One of the most unguardable players of all time.
Bro put up a bunch of scoring numbers for Paul Pierce and said they were close like Wade was better at literally every facet of the game minus rebounding(barely, and you can argue that relative to position Wade was WAY better) and three point shooting…THATS IT. I could throw up a bunch of crazy Bradley Beal/Devin Booker/Donovan Mitchell scoring feats and then say they’re close to Wade according to this dude
@@outlawjoe5447 Want to know what's funny about the 3pt shooting. In head to head matchups when Wade and Pierce faced off against eachother in both Season and playoffs. Wade had a slightly higher 3pt% then Pierce LOL at almost 31% for Wade and pierce at 30. So the one thing Pierce thinks he has over Wade he doesn't lmao plus there playoffs 3pt% is literally the same too. wade at 33.8 and Pierce slightly above 35.
I honestly didn't realize modern basketball fans didn't know Bird was a good defender. As a guy who watched him play, not only was he good, he was frustrating because sometimes he seemed to be out of position to make a defensive play, but then he'd steal the ball and there go the Celtics heading the other way.
I love Bird and he definitely played hard on defense, and was an incredible rebounder but he was really only a good help defender. He would guard a weaker player and gamble to get steals, hence his high steal count. He was great at reading defenses and guarding passing lanes but got scored on a ton because he left his player open.
Not all defense is about one on one, its about defending the other team from scoring period, even if it requires driving a player to a spot on the floor that they're not comfortable being in. I think too many fans treat defense like Boxing one on one. Early in M.J's career teams used to let MJ go for two or three quarters and then Double him, and his teammates were Ice cold. Ironically it was the Celtics that did that.
If you take the numbers Timmy played virtually 50/50 between Center and PF (Listed in BasketballRef), indeed it shouldnt be a HOT take but i still believe Tim Duncan to be a PF in essence, he played his prime years in the position and had his most dominant years in it.I Believe there is a debate but personally i believe its the same situation as AD, he was a PF and as he got older he transition into a C/PF type of player and i wouldnt discredit Duncan as the Greatest PF just by this transition in the context of his carrer
What numbers are you reading? Regular season: 36% PF, 63% center Playoffs: 29% PF, 71% center That’s not virtually 50/50. What was virtually 50/50 was his peak years between the positions.
@@roundtable3501 I calculated based of Listed Position (Basketball Ref), not actual data from a game to game basis, of course if there's this kind of data is way more accurate than what i posted
I watched Pierce playing from 07 till he left Boston. Indeed, he performed excellenty at both ends, a solid team player, a clutch scorer. A team can achieve great result either him or Wade.
@@AGHathaway Thanks for letting me know you are a casual. Flash was the GOAT at getting people into foul trouble with his game under the basket with his Hesitstion dribbles and fakeouts combined with his insane speed. You know nothing
Jonny we know why Larry doesn't get credit for being a good defender. It's because he's a white dude that doesn't look the part of an elite athlete lol. I feel like that goofy stereotype has permeated a lot of basketball discussions.
Duncan a pf when Robinson left Tiago splitter was the center Duncan only played 5 in his later years. and Lebron didn’t play pf in Miami Joel Anthony was their center I believe his name was…Bosh was the 4
My hot take that really shouldn't be a hot take is that Tim Duncan has an argument for beign the third best player ever, and if you think that's too high for him then he should not be any lower then five. Lebron, Mj, Magic, and Bird are the only players that I think have good arguments for beign better then him
@@quackmemes5410 yeah but he played point guard as well during his rookie year when Jerry Stackhouse was the starting shooting guard and later in like 05-06 when Andre Iguodala and Kyle Krover were on the Sixers.
Iverson's problem wasn't that he was confused about whether he was a SG or PG, it's that he thought he was the only player on the floor. One of the most overrated players ever. The guy was horribly inefficient and his attitude and playing style was so poor that nobody wanted to play with him. For several years in the league, the last place you wanted to land was Philly. Iverson thought he was the entire team and he played that way. It was basically Iverson running around like a chicken with its head cut off and everybody else on his team trying to figure out WTF he was doing. It's a miracle Larry Brown was able to actually get something out of him for that one season in 2001. Probably because they traded for the DPOY and had 6th Man of the Year. You'll never find another player who is so absolutely inefficient and intolerable to deal with that the Coach of the Year award goes to a guy just because he was able to make it work for half a season.
Duncan played most years alongside a traditional center, and not just the Admiral. He played with Rasho Nesterovic, Fabricio Oberto, Thiago Splitter, Aron Baynes, Boban, etc... Sure he's got some qualities of a center but you can't just say he's not a PF.
Great video jonny I feel like we debated some of these on stream before.....my hot take is Tracy McGrady was neck and neck with Kobe in his prime or Carmelo Anthony had a better rookie year than LeBron
T Mac was NEVER that good😭🤦🏾♂️. And I can say million reasons why Kobe was better at his peak (even though his peak is a little overrated too) and only just a couple of things the other way around
It's funny how people think TMac was bad on defense, yet his defensive Stats were better than Kobe's. I'm convinced Shaq could have won those 3 Laker rings with T-Mac instead of Kobe.
@@Cakebattered TMac was a defensive specialist in Toronto.... These guys weren't even alive when McGrady played. I just ignored them. Now I know how these old heads feel.
Greatest PFs of all time in no particular order: (sorry I still have to consider Tim Duncan as a PF) 1. Tim Duncan 2. Kevin McHale 3. Karl Malone 4. Charles Barkley 5. Kevin Garnett
My hottest take. 02 kings getting screwed out of a championship is so overblown. I'll give you that game 6 was a joke, but that's usually where the conversation stops. No one talks about how they still had game 7 at home and had the chance to overcome what happened in game 6 and basically become legends. And what did they do? Absolutely choked
Probably because they were so discouraged at the atrocity committed against them prior, kinda like with the 2018 finals,not really the same situation since it was smith who was at fault and not the refs but the Cavs needed to win g1, the kings needed to win g6, the warriors had just come off a 16-1 playoff run, the lakers had just come off a 15-1 playoff run, sometimes after stuff like that happens the chemistry just isn’t the same
I don't honestly fall for it being as rigged as advertised (unlike the 2016 finals for LBJ). However, assuming the Kings thought it was rigged, they could have been emotionally drained. Examples are the Spurs in 2013 after the Ray Allen shot. Spurs were the better team but lost the series in a close one. Kobe in 06 vs phoenix where after game 6, he acquiesced to the coach and media and they got blown out.
Theres a somewhat popular podcast with three younglings that talks basketball, and they LEGITIMALY believe Larry Bird was a liability on defense, and thats fucking crazy.
Time Duncan: the greatest ROLE PLAYER of all time. Knew his role, never stepped outside of it..never did anything extra or extraordinary...just played his role, and his role only. Never developed anything new, never tried. Just played his role....and was the greatest and most consistent role player ever.
The bird disrespect is sad. I despise the Celtics with a passion but I still need to give Larry his flowers. Dude is KD but a better passer, playmaker, defender, and isn't a choker
@@janoycresnova9156 doubt it, people just like to disrespect older players that they never got to see play because they think their generation is better. Doubt skin color has anything to do with it cause bill russel, wilt, moses malone and even magic get similar treatment and all those players are black.
They're pretty even on defense imo. Durants the better shot blocker and his athleticism helps. Birds obviously stronger. He's the wrose 3pt shooter, mid range shooter and finisher though. And Durants clutch as f. Yes, he's choled at times but you gonna tell me bird didn't?
I respectfully push back hard against the d wade paul pierce segment. Wade's peak as a player was just so much higher. His defense, actually being the best player on a championship team, higher scoring peaks, and ability to efficiently create offense through generating contact at the rim put him on a different level than paul
Wade is definitely the better player and its not a debate we all know its wade, but as far as scoring the truth is better and if he the help wade had he might be just as accomplished. Also you have to have confidence to be the best
Lol no. He's bringing it to himself. Wade was better in every aspect of the game except shooting. Even if we switched their careers, Wade would still have a better career than Pierce.
The Duncan situation is similar to the Jerry West situation. A lot of ppl likento rank Jerry West amongst the shooting guards but he was listed as a point guard for most of his career.
Tim was a PF in the NBA. He wasn't even listed as a center until 2007, after all his best accolades were accomplished, and four years after D Rob left. And then he played with centers like Oberto, Splitter, etc.
Nice video, Jonny. I have long thought of Duncan as a PF, but your video, along with knowing that he played Center too has given me more food for thought. I can definitely see the case for him being one of the best centers. Personally, I would put Kareem and Wilt ahead of him and would need to think more of how Russell, Olajuwon and Shaq would rank with Duncan in the conversation. Definitely something I want to think more about. As for who would be the best PF w/o Duncan in the conversation, that is a tough one. I see solid cases for Barkley, Malone, and KG. Have a great weekend 😊
Its pretty clearly Malone or KG. Barkley is a clear step below Malone and KG. Garnett has a ring on Malone but Malone was the clear number 1 player on his tean for both finals and matched evenly if not better against Jordan in them. Garnett was not the clear best player on the Celtics. Malones miles better at scoring and was a force on defense still as well as having better longevity than Garnett. Garnett was ofcourse great on offense and was generational on defense clearing Malone by a gap. Tossup imo.
Duncan actually didn't switch full-time to Center until the secind half of his career after he declined. LeBron wouldn't be listed as a PF because he spent the most of his best years as a SF. He won most [or all] of his championships, MVPs, All-NBA/Defense selections, & FMVPs as a SF.
A lot of bird's steals at home were from knowing all the dead spots in the court at the celtics arena, something every other NBA player did not know. He would guard them in a way that would force them to dribble the ball into the dead spot allowing bird to get an easy steal. This shows as his steals per game at home is higher than steals per game away.
i agree with your Pierce take(as a Wade fan who managed to watch both Wade and Pierce) and that is despite his lots of trash takes after retiring. his situation is the same with Kg vs Tim, Tmac vs Kobe. THeir careers could be better if swap in those situations.
A couple hot takes that I don't think should be hot takes: Bill Russell should not be considered as the best defender of all time because he has no officially recorded steals blocks and defensive player of the the Year Awards. Wilt Chamberlain deserved the MVP over Bill Russell multiple times John Stockton is severely underrated. All-time leader in assists and steals, it should definitely be valued more than it is. Rings earned in different eras have different value.
I agree with the three final ones, but the reason Bill Russell shouldn't be considered the best defender of all time is because of how Wilt shut him down, while he couldn't shut Wilt down, leading to (among other things) Wilt's 55 rebounds against the Celtics. Bill himself acknowledged Wilt as the greatest player who ever lived, and for their shared position, I'm not arguing against eleven rings.
@@PlatinumJug Bill can be considered the best defensive player even without those stats, because one doesn’t need basic box score stats to measure defensive ability. We have the defensive ratings for the Celtics and the Celtics have the best regular season and playoff defenses ever. And in games Russell missed, the Celtics became a below average defensive team. So Bill single handedly made the Celtics teams the best defensive teams ever. Defensive player of the year award is also a meaningless awards. The people voting don’t know what they’re taking about. And there’s at least 10 years where the winner of the defensive player of the year has been quite absurd to say the least. And I don’t think rings should be used at all to rank players because rings are a team thing. I think it should be how much an individuals impacts their team.
@@c99kfm That’s isn’t a good argument. First off, in that 55 rebound game the Celtics won, and wilt shot 15 from 42 from the field which is a terrible 35.7% field goal percentage. So bill did shut wilt down. Wilt shot 50.9% from the field that season. So that’s 15% below his average. A lot of wilt’s rebounds that game were either defensive rebounds that the Celtics missed or wilt own shots as he missed 27 shots that game which is very bad. Nextly, using one game to discredit a player isn’t very sound. And bill did shut wilt down consistently. Wilt’s scoring volume, efficient, and playmaking shot down against the Celtics. Hence why the Celtics continually beat wilt’s teams. Even in years like 1969 where wilt had Jerry west and Elgin Baylor.
Hot take- the top of the greatest players list should only consist of those that won MVP and finals MVP at least one time - 12: Steph 13: Moses 14: Giannis 15: Joker 16: Dirk. 17: KD. Then Mikan, Cousy, and Petit who won the championship, best players on their team, and were the best players in the league as well. Those 3 aren’t better than modern players but for IMPACT- they are 18-19 and 20
Tim Duncan is a center! THANK YOU!!! I have to be the biggest Tim Duncan fan I know and I will vouch and defend this man whenever disrespected. But when ever I hear spurs fans call him the greatest power forward ever, I cringe a little because he really plays like a center. You are the only other person I’ve heard call him a center and I thank you
People laughing at Pierce like, come on guys. He was one of the best on his time(era). And yes, he's absolutely right about not having any teammates in his prime. I still freaking remember always picking Celtics in 2k03 and nbalive03 because of Pierce. Imagine having just Shaq or KG or Bosh plus 1 good PG all on their primes.
My hot take Oscar robertson is extremely overrated, he put up stats that were achieved by a current player that most don’t even consider top five pg (Russ) in the same era where wilt is sometimes discredited for playing against plumbers.
•Got eliminated in the first round of the playoffs 5 out of the 10 times he's been there • From ages 28-31 he was putting up great numbers but his Cincinnati Royals missed the playoffs for three consecutive seasons. • Never made the finals until getting to Milwaukee with and Kareem saved his career. • Wasn't even the 2nd best player on his team when he won the title in 1971. Bob Dandridge and Kareem were both better. • Was the ultimate "empty stats" guy for most of his career. Never led his teams to any success in the playoffs before Kareem got there. Mostly just 30-40 win seasons. •Only led his Royals teams to one 50+ win season in one of the weakest conferences in history
First off, Russ achieved for 1 season what Robertson did for his first 7 seasons in the league. In that one season he got a deserved mvp despite being only the sixth seed. Second ppg wasnt actually much higher back then, unlike rebounds. Also unlike Wilt he didnt play 45 minutes per game so his stats arent as inflated. As for the plumber argument, it has always been completely rubbish. I think he should be rated somewhere between number 15 and 20 on the all-time list. It is hard to argue that he wasnt a top 4 player of his era so its pretty hard to rate him outside the top 30.
Oscar is a 6'5 PG who averaged double digit rebounds multiple times back when players were living under the rim, nobody was shooting 3s for the 🏀 to bounce further, so objectively u're wrong . He's actually super underrated .
I disagree with the Pierce take. Now both are HOF players but one is a top 30-35ish player oat vs someone who’s probably out of the top 50. Piece has half the all nba team, less all star teams, and peak for peak despite playing in the same era, Wade has a scoring championship unlike Pierce yet Pierce claims to be the better scorer. Wade was also an elite defender and he was a better all around offensive player than Pierce because Wade had an elite pick and roll game. Wade is top 3 in his position while Pierce is probably 8th in his. The gap is pretty big here.
I mean, saying that an NBA player played as center in high school is not really a reason to classify them as center for their pro career. Some of these NBA players (not all) have early growth spurts and end up being way taller than kids of their age, making them ideal centers for any youth team
Michael Beasley is one of the greatest scorers to have ever touched a basketball, also one of the best rebounders from the snall forward positiions, and an extremely underrated facilitator
When categorizing players, it helps to consider 6 spots instead of 5: * Pure 1: CP3, Steve Nash * 1-2: AI, Steph * 2-3: Jordan, Bird * 3-4: LeBron, Barkley * 4-5: Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem, Russell * Pure 1: Wilt, Shaq, Kareem A small portion tend to stay as pure 2, 3, 4, like Reggie, Dominque, and K Malone. They seem to be the exceptions, and could mostly do it because they were so good at that role.
Man people laugh when I say bird is top 3, watching him play was insane and if he had the type of talent magic had around him (not saying bird didn't have talent his teams were stacked) or played in the west he would of easily had more rings
Yea I don't think Pierce is anywhere close to Prime Wade from 2005-2009. A complete whole Tier Under Wade. Wade was closer to Kobe at the peak of his powers before his injuries. His Ring and FMVP in 2006 to me is one of the most underrated and overlooked championships of all time. People just look at the boxscore and see that Wade got 15 fts a game and just say "rigged" when the truth is Prime Flash was one of the most unguardable players of all time. No one could stay infront of Flash. That championship is much more impressive then Pierce's FMVP in 2008 with his superteam Celtics where KG easily could have won FMVP too. I also have zero problem with Pierce talking himself up all the time and saying he is better. I kinda like it when stars are cocky like that lol it's entertaining.
Tim Duncan should be classified as a "big man" that can play either. Like Steph Curry is a "combo guard" he doesn't even run the Warriors offense, Draymond does.
Tim played PF because that was his natural position. He excelled at that position. When he transitioned to the C spot that to me was when we really saw him flourish.
@the larry bird take, let's talk about Joe Ingles, Bojan Bogdonovic, and the blatantly racial reasons that Rudy Gobert got the credit for what was largely their hard work on that end of the floor
Put Pierce on the Heat in 2006 in Wades position and they are losing that finals that's even if they get there which I doubt lol he could never do what Wade did and that is why he is a tier below even tho Pierce is all time great also.
Kobe played all positions in high school. Honestly, I think the whole aspect of roles/positions has been much more liberally defined as basketball has progressed over the last 10+ years. I think it really depends on what their actual play style and size was and which positions were most accommodating to it. Most PF's and C's can swap generally.
@@EternalJuggernaut_TheFinalBoss I get that I'm just saying using the whole what position they were in high school or college seems kind of misleading. The whole concept of positions haven't really been that important anyways - just look at guys like Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace - both are shorter than ideal for the positions they played, but they played them incredibly well.
I think ppl tend to underrate what it really meant to get All-Defensive selections in the 80s/90s. In the modern NBA only a handful of players play real Defense so the All-Defensive team is typically an easy choice. But in the 80s/90s playing Defense was a requirement, so to win All-Defensive in an era where everyone played Defense really meant you were elite of the elite.
I won't say that Tim Duncan never played the center position. He did. But, to quote John Adams, "Facts are stubborn things." Here is a chronological list of the centers that Tim Duncan started with: (1) David Robinson; (2) Will Perdue; (3) Shawnelle Scott; (4) Cherokee Parks; (5) Kevin Willis; (6) Rasho Nesterovic; (7) Francisco Elson; (8) Fabricio Oberto; (9) Jackie Butler; (10) Kurt Thomas; (11) Drew Gooden; (12) DeJuan Blair; (13) Theo Ratliff; (14) Tiago Splitter; (15) Boris Diaw; (16) Aaron Baynes; (17) LaMarcus Aldridge; (18) Boban Marjanovic. As you can see, it is just incorrect to infer that, once David Robinson retired, Tim Duncan became the Spurs' starting center. Tim Duncan started 1,389 games in his carreer. He started with one of the above teammates in 1,170 of them. When he started with any of the above teammates, those players were the center, not Tim Duncan. That leaves 219 games in which Tim Duncan did, in fact, start at center, which accounts for about 15.8% of this starts. Now, admittedly, DeJuan Blair and Boris Diaw were not traditional centers, but when they started with Tim, they did, in fact, match up with the opposing team's center. Also, LaMarcus Aldridge and Tim often played interchangeably against the other team's center in 2016. But even if (for the sake of argument) all of those games are conceded as Tim starting at center, that would only account for 303 of Tim Duncan's starts, increasing the number of starts at center from 219 to 522, or 37.6% of Tim's starts. The conclusion is that no matter how it's counted, the overwhelming number of Tim Duncan's starts were, in fact, at the Power Forward position. I hope this clears things up.
THANK GOD FOR YOU! DOING THE LORDS WORK!!! Jonny is a Kobe fan and laker sycophant, so he hates on the spurs whenever possible. Only casuals that never watched spurs games make the argument that Tim was a center. Such a joke!
“Facts are stubborn things.” Basketball reference play by play data: Tim Duncan: Regular season: 36% PF, 63% Center Playoffs: 29% PF, 71% Center The conclusion is what all it takes is one trip to basketball reference to see where a player plays a position. The NBA has had statisticians map out exactly where a player plays every minute of their time since 1997. So there’s no need for someone on UA-cam to try and guess the time they played at a position. I hope this clears things up.
@@maurygoldblat8982 “Casuals” or people that actually look at play by play data that’s in which every possession of every game has been tracked since 1997 lol. I would call people who don’t look at this data that actual casuals.
My hot take that shouldn’t be hot is that bill russell is criminally overrated. He averaged 14 a game on 44% shooting. That’s fucking terrible. He’s NEVER came top 3 in scoring ON HIS OWN TEAM! If you don’t have the ability to take over a game with your scoring you shouldn’t be considered a top 10 player of all time. Iverson and melo are both also grossly overrated
@@celtics17banners84 he had the most stacked team of all time in an era of 7-10 teams and no free agency so there was literally nothing anybody could do about it. Put Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace on a team in that era with John Havlicek bob cousy Sam jones Tom heinson kc jones etc and they’d win 11 rings too. There’s was no way anybody could compete with that
He won as player-coach in 2 seasons IIRC. He's rated. I won't say over or undr. No one puts him in the GOAT argument, but he still won 11/13 rings. No one was able to dethrone him with any consistency.
Absolutely delusional Lebron has 4 mvps to Kobe’s 1 4 fmvps to Kobe’s 2 More efficient scorer by far Better rebounder by far Better passer by FAR Better teammate and leader
What’s your hot take that shouldn’t be hot?
Accolades mean nothing and using them as arguments when comparing or evaluating players shows ignorance.
Similar thing with stats
Stats without context mean literally nothing
Steph curry isn't clutch
My hot take Oscar robertson is extremely overrated, he put up stats that were achieved by a current player that most don’t even consider top five pg (Russ) in the same era where wilt is sometimes discredited for playing against plumbers.
Kd is not the greatest scorer
@@Dl3nationthat’s not a hot take at all
Larry Bird being a top 10 player of all time is something people nowadays see as a hot take but it is simply true. Saying Bird is better than either Tatum or KD is another thing that is simply true
Fr people always cut him out to make room for Curry. Like bruh Curry in the top 15 range and thats okay.
Those people talking about top 10 and especially top 5 need to calm down
Im literally the biggest kd fan oat and even i think bird is better.
They see the inflated numbers of today and try to compare them to past players
If anyone thinks Tatum is better than bird they are 12 years old or idiots. Tatums not even better than Paul pierce all time
@loxt993 yep, there are even people who say that Curry is better than Magic and other absurd shit
Duncan was a PF/C. The other greatest centers were exclusively centers _(Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Olajuwon, Shaq, Moses)._ The other greatest PFs were exclusively PFs _(with the exception of Kevin Garnett, who Duncan is probably most similar to)._ So it makes sense to compare Duncan to either power forwards or centers. Duncan also played with plenty of other big men on the floor with him, sometimes guarding the other team's center, sometimes guarding their PF. I think you can reasonably call him either one; he was more of a big man at large than either position specifically.
I didn't realize Paul Pierce got a lot of flak for saying he was similar to D Wade. He definitely was. Wade was better on D and a better playmaker but Pierce was a better scorer. I'd take Wade if I had to pick between the two, but not by a lot.
I don't know if Bird was really _elite_ on D per se, but he was definitely solid. He made a couple of all-defense teams and he was a tenacious scrapper with a huge IQ. It's why I think he was probably a better player than Magic.
Duncan and Garnett’s styles were decently different from one another actually. On both ends of the floor. But Garnett spent 67% of his time at PF in the regular season and 60% in the playoffs. While Duncan was 36% and 29% respectively.
Would you consider LeBron elite definitely? (In his prime)
Agreed
Also Duncan kept playing as PF for many years well beyond David Robinson's retirement yet he kept using that as the main reason he was shifted to PF lol. Bad take from the video guy
@@owensmith2137as a one on one defender he’s good-great in his prime. But as a help defender he might be the best ever in his prime. Larry Bird was always a great help defender because of his IQ. Imagine Larry bird level IQ with some of the best athleticism ever seen from a man that’s 6’8. I believe there were articles during the heat era that it was such a difficult defense to replicate because Lebron was such an anomaly with switching and help defense. How fast he could cover ground and effect everything.
Larry Bird was great at all aspects of basketball. Including defense, he played good defense against Nique, Worthy, Salley, and any forward they pitted him against. He was a great rebounder, played the passing lanes for steals and made scoring difficult for opponents.
Bird is one those players that you'd have see play in real time in order to believe it.
1/2 of current NBA fans never had that luxury Birds game doesnt translate to UA-cam & Google stats that well he was a pest & extremely smart.
And I hated him
@@Peakfreud statements from the 2 MJs that Bird played against is overwhelmingly enough for me to believe over a sh*t ton of random youtube comments.
Bird was a terrible defender it was not a hot take it's just reality.
@@TheFanDEATH Not quite sure you know what a hot take is, you got several of them on This channel that were absolutely & completely ignored.
@@TheFanDEATHWhen his back gave out yes but before that he was 3 time all defense
Duncan was a power forward because that was his preferred position as he's said multiple times the only reason he played any center through the years was because the team asked him to and since he's a team first player he accepted
Plus he got his 2 mvps and multiple finals mvps, and his best stats as a power foward.
He played both positions well
Yeah this list lost me after that poor Duncan take
Great point. Aother thing to consider is how much success he had in those 9 seasons as a PF. When comparing that to KG, Dirk, Karl, etc, it's not even close. Tim is still the GOAT PF.
@@deanyul4 What? You don't think Rasho Nesterovich, Nazr Mohammed, and Tiago Splitter were the Spurs PFs? /s
Hot take that should not be hot:
Any player that fell within the top 50 range but not make the top 10 of all time or even top 20 are still considered all time greats within the 75 years of NBA history. Fans do tend to get a bit obsessed with the top 10 list of time a tad bit too much but have a tendency to forget other players outside the top 10 or even top 20 players of all time. New players will come in and challenge for the top 10 list as older players fades into obscurity.
My point is, try to take the time to appreciate players who are great and exceptional players but couldn't make it to the top 10 list of all time.
Duncan was a PF in the starting lineups from 97-12, as he got older he moved to center, but Robinson, Oberto, Mohammed, and Mcdyess all played center in those years
Doesn't make duncan a PF, he was a C in a 2x C lineup just like the Rockets twin towers of Hakeem and Sampson. Everyone knew they were two C's playing together, but Pop pushed the narrative of Duncan being a PF when he was always a C in a 2x C lineup. I cant say Pop could foresee being listed as PF would have been more beneficial for Ducnans legacy, but he really wanted that to stick
DeJuan Blair is of course the GOAT center who played with Tim Duncan
@@HailKingCeezer Duncan won most of his team and individual accolades when he was the definitive PF of the spurs.
No matter how you slice it he’s the greatest PF ever no matter how you short he played that position.
@@yvans. thats only bc traditional positions players are boxed in. 2 center lineup in reality.
@@HailKingCeezerFacts Pop actually was Smart and didn't change the system he came into the league playing and had success in when Robinson retired.
All those traditional centers he played with Had the title on line up roster, but minutes wise none of them played starter mins Antonio McDyess came close but was often injured.
I think the problem with the Pierce thing was that he's a real dude, and the TV shows (like the one he was on) perpetuate drama and gossip. So when they ask a real dude like him a stupid question, he's not gonna give the politically correct answer, of course he's just gonna say himself. In the environment he's from anything else would come off cowardly. Now, he could have handled it a little more intelligently and maturely, but it's not like he just went on TV and blurted it out, they freakin asked him! The question was a set up, knowing that Pierce is a very confident guy who's not gonna be humble, especially when it comes to a rival like D Wade. I'm glad you made this video bc so many kids that weren't old enough to see him play think Pierce was some kind of scrub. Dude is a 1st ballot HOF! Maybe not as good as Wade but it's not like fucking Ben Simmons comparing himself to Jordan or some outrageous shit like that
I really appreciate this Paul Pierce take. I definitely feel like Wade was better because he was a great defender. But Pierce is one of the best offensive players ever and was one of the best 3pt shooters of his era. He was also incredibly clutch. He played on terrible teams most of his career but we saw what he could do with help at age 30. Imagine him and KG together at age 25.
Pearce > Wade
Dwayne Wade is a better offensive player than Paul pierce
Wade had a similar team in 09 to pierce in his early years and was 3rd in MVP voting and averaged 30 on 49% from the field. PP was never as efficient as Wade yet Wade matched his scoring. How can he be better?
The amount of discredit to Larry Bird's career that I've seen recently on the Internet is absolutely unbelievable^ It really put into perspective for me how one's achievements, legacy and history can so easily be prone to revisionism.
I think people forget how differently the game was officiated in bird's era, if you just go off the highlights obviously players like kd and Tatum look alot smoother and faster, but in the 80s they probably would've been subject to more travel or carry calls and struggled to deal with the lack of spacing (keep in mind they probably would've been used in the midrange and inside mostly), birds lack of conventional athleticism and strength were much better suited for the time
Yep magic and Dr j constantly have to say how great he was. Some day giannis and kd will have to say the same things about nikola jokic.
What's insane is there's plenty of Larry Bird footage and games on youtube.
Tim also consistently played with traditional centers not only just drob but naz Mohammed Tiago splitter etc so it’s all really perspective
So did Hakeem, in 7'4 Ralph Sampson & 7' Kevin Willis ( Who play center for several NBA teams) also Ottis Thorpe who was a Monster of a man physically.
Pop never switched from the two center system that T.D came up in when Robinson was there they had too much success.
None of those so called traditional centers after Robinson played Starter minutes.
Hence why Manu got Starter minutes while being the 6th man.
@@Peakfreudumm Ralph was taller but was basically a pf and Otis was the pure definition of a pf what are you talking about lol
Yea I explained to Johnny this fact. But he never watched a spurs game so he doesn't understand. He just makes shit up apparently
@@charlestucker7955 Not really into arguing for the sake & sport of arguing.Discussion sure, but I'll pass on bait its just over done. The Skip Bayless & Steven A. Mimicking over saturates the Internet.
In other words I don't wanna role play thanks.
i completely agree on the paul pierce take. its absurd how much he's getting clowned when he has every right to say that. its part of being a competitor. all that seperates them is accomplishments. who had the better career? dwayne wade obviously when its all said and done. but as players? thats definitely a conversation to be had.
Wade is a full tier Ahead of Pierce. Anyone that actually hoops can easily tell Wade is on another level then Pierce. Paul doesn't have the intangibles Flash had. He would never be able to lead that 06 Heat to the Championship
@@MistahJay7Pierce led the trash 2002 Boston Celtics to conference finals! Why do you think Shaq called him the truth? Also one of the first players to Utilize the step back jumper ! and as soon he gets helpful teammates … he wins a championships & beats lebron head 2 head in a game 7 2008 performance! Then was a KG injury from a repeat trip to the 2009 finals! In 2010 he was 1 game away from his 2nd ring vs Kobe. In 2011 he forced the new lebron / wade Miami Heat favorites to 7 games! Pierce also has one of the most made game winners shots in nba history! Show respect !!!
@MistahJay7 you need to go back and watch 2000s basketball and give both players a fair shake. wade has his flaws just as much as pierce has his. don't make me go degrade a great player to make my argument bro.
@MistahJay7 we can talk about wades mediocre perimeter shooting. we can talk about the simple fact wade played with far better teams. I dont wanna get into this but you wanna disrespect a guy thats arguably the best scorer of the 2000s
@MistahJay7 I've played ball before. in fact you do not need to play basketball to be good at the eye test. both great players. if wade is a tier ahead of pierce entirely then what tier is that bro? I'm not putting wade up there with Jordan. that's fuckin absurd.
With Timmy D, the fun is that he had Robonson, Nazr Mohhamed and Nesterovic, Oberto and Splitter in his prime thats why we remember him as a PF
Boris Diaw
@@oeldave yeah but with Diane they can claim he wasn't a center but with the ones I mentioned you can't say they were pfs
Another one I have for bird is that he was a better individual player than magic, but magic takes the all time spot over him simply because he had the better career. Magic was lucky he played with so many of the top players in nba history. He also played in the weakest conference the league will ever see. But bird did everything magic did but more. Bird could playmake like magic and also play good transition basketball if he needed. Bird was also a far better shooter, rebounder, and defender than magic who you could consider a liability. Magic was notorious for playing games and not even committing a single foul
I disagree entirely, but you deserve to have an opinion. Magic won FMVP as a rookie. To argue Magic was lucky to play with HOFers but not even acknowledging Bird was also lucky to play with HOFers is where I cannot take your opinion seriously. The individual skill for skill argument is also a wash and sunjective. Objectively, both had their margins, but Magic has an argument for greatest playmaker of all time. Bird does not.
@@cameronno6039Birds hall of famers were nobodies without Bird, that's the difference. Bird went to a team that had 29 wins, and with the addition of Bird only they got 61 wins. This was before McHale or Parish where even there. Then the next year, McHale's rookie year who was a soso player at the time, Bird still won the championship.
Most people when both retired had Bird above magic and for good reason. It's only recently where people are trying to knock Bird.
@@cameronno6039Bird was very similar in quality but not quantity as he didn't play PG. Watching their passes both were very close in skill.
As for the FMVP arguement. The only reason Magic won is the finals game. Kareem outplayed him that entire series.
Magic had a prime Kareem who's margins better than any of Birds teammates.
@@samraizshoaib585Magic got the FMVP because of 'marketability'. Kareem is owed one extra FMVP. Larry is owed one extra FMVP for 1981 too.
Paul Pierce is up there on the most underrated legends list.
Absolutely
Overrated*
@@billycausgrove9657 your mother's overrated.
Pierce makes himself underrated 😂
Still not on Flash's level
Timmy usually closes as a center but always starts at the 4 unless it was a drastic change.Tbf it's really difficult to identify what an ideal power foward is, especially nowadays. If we take away the fact that timmy was the greatest power foward of all time, then the conversation can change from Dirk to Bird or Barkley to Malone.
Thats crazy because Height Wise and positive wise Dirk was a four.
But most of his offense came from playing small forward Sets
What about kevin Garnett or Giannis? I'd say those are 100% better than Malone and Barkley
I appreciate you talking about Bird’s defense. If people still aren’t convinced here are 2 more things to consider:
1. You don’t retire as the all time leader in steals for the team you played for if you’re not a great defender.
2. Barring Lebron’s chase down block in 2016, you don’t make the greatest defensive play in NBA playoff history if you’re not a great defender.
Bird's steal was more inpressive than the block. Really, It just did not happen in the finals. But, good take
Greatest defensive play in playoff history was Giannis’ block on Ayton
@@javigar133no, that block was nearly impossible to time. That block was far more difficult to do for a physical and athletic standpoint. The speed, angle necessary. in the biggest moment of the NBA (the finals). Where if they score that probably wins them the game.
@@JolteOnWisconsinno. that was a game 4... lebron's was in a game 7 with the game on the line. no debate.
If LeBron block wasnt in a game 7, it would drop behind Tayshaun Princes block of Reggie Miller. It was more impressive as no one stood between Reggie and the Basket. You have to re-watch it at least twice just to even see where Tayshaun comes into frame.
Dan Majerle was also an all-star and was on the 1994 USA FIBA team, he was a talented player and solid enough to be a 2nd to 4th option on a championship team. I think he'd be a champion of Barkley didn't hurt his foot (or was it knee?) in 93, they had a good 1-3 options with those two and Kevin Johnson.
Love your content, Jonny. Your vids are always level-headed and well-thought-out, which is refreshing compared to the usual NBA media
The Celtics-Wizards game on April 6, 2003 is still memorable.
Especially the showdown between Pierce and Jordan in that match was really great.
Tim Duncan would be a center in today's game. The 90s and early 00s usually featured 2 traditional big men. The power forward would be expected to hit a mid range shot and be a little more diversified on defense. Now a "stretch 4" is a bigger wing player who can knock down 3s and guard 1-4.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT PIERCE. It irritates me so much that everyone clowns on him for that take.
Yup Pierce averaged 34 for a 10 week span in 05-06 and Boston (a poor team outside of Pierce) ripped off 10 wins in 11 games purely due to Pierce’s insane play. He scored 30+ in 9 of those 10 wins. For a Boston fan with little to cheer about it was captivating watching that perplexing win streak go down.
Pierce was 100% a top 8 player in the league for his prime. I recently read some old Bill Simmons page two ESPN stuff and in spring 2006 Simmons made a compelling case that Pierce was the 3rd most valuable player in the league behind only LeBron and Kobe - and he gives plenty of evidence it’s not just some homer take of his. I’ve read plenty of Simmons and know when he’s being a homer. Simmons himself trashed Pierce in ‘04 for his bad attitude and uninspiring play, but in this piece he convincingly wrote how Pierce realized he was stuck in Boston for better or worse and went all in on the team. (It’s a great read and I highly recommend googling it if you’re a Pierce fan it’s not hard to find.)
The gap between Pierce and early/mid 2000s 1B level guys (Dirk/Wade/Iverson/Nash/TMac) is so extraordinarily slim that it’s more accurate to group Pierce in 1B than it is to drop him into tier 2 with guys like John Wall and Amare. (The only three early/mid 2000s 1A tier guys: LBJ, Kobe, and Shaq).
Pierce led his team in points rebounds AND assists in ‘03-‘04 and 05-06.*
Also, as far as the Wade/Pierce swap PP would have been a better fit next to LBJ. Miami’s half court offense was more than a little suspect those first two Miami years before Ray Ray switched sides. Sure you lose a little of DWade’s playmaking and open court offense with the swap but Pierce’s shooting and versatile 3 level scoring would have done wonders for Miami’s bogged down half court offense especially in the playoffs.
On defense LBJ could have gambled and blitzed screens more on defense with a big swing guard out there who can contest in the paint, switch 2-4, and stay in front of most PGs for at least a few possessions. Pierce was a good if not great defender/defensive rebounder and a definite net positive on that end up until ~2012 when quick guys beat him more often than not.
And it’s always worth mentioning when discussing Pierce that in the fall of ‘00 he was the victim of a violent attack wherein he was stabbed 8 times and had a beer bottle broken over his eye socket (for basically no reason besides trying to chat up a girl at a bar) just 8 weeks before the 00-01 season and still played every single game. Dude was a tough mf. (Side note: Celtics center Tony Battie saved PP’s life by carrying a blood soaked Pierce to his car and speeding to a nearby hospital.)
Ok that’s enough defending The Truth’s basketball honor… for one night anyway.
I'm a Celtic hater but I got Pierce neck and neck with Wade, he's got to be one of the most underrated players of the last 20 years. He is absolutely in the top tier wing players of his generation
@@SmartWentCrazy. Pierce never made All- Defense but he was regarded as one of the best wing defenders in the NBA for many years.
Pierce the Truth .. a mix of prime Carmelo and Harden AND actually won . Put respect on bro name .. literally has one of the coldest NBA moments #ever vs Harrington
Y'all be tripping y'all no nothing about basketball, defense baby defense matters
I think that longevity gets way too much priority when evaluating players. I don't just mean for the MJ/Bron comparisons, but the fact that guys like Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, Yao Ming, Penny Hardaway, TMac, etc are rarely viewed as top choices at their position, even though their talent landed them comfortably as top players of their era (and often better than players who had longer careers)
I disagree. Longevity had a major impact on their legacy. Lot of guys have had a good 3 years. Not a lot have had a great 13+ it’s a feat in itself and it matters.
I think it was too early to tell for Grant. I loved Yao when he played, he actually had skills and wasn’t just big. TMac was disappointing in the playoffs and was injury riddled so I see why that happened like it did. B Roy would have went down as a top 5 shooting guard all time and I do believe that. He was like D Wade in a sense. Idk too much about Penny so I can’t comment on that
Only when it’s relevant to a close longevity comparison, or when you’re specifically talking about young players who didn’t get the opportunity to get to their prime
Downplaying longevity does seem like you’re targeting a certain player. But it absolutely matters because longevity is what leads to those great careers (Jordan, Lebron, Kareem). Players should be praised for what they did accomplish and not based on hypotheticals.
At the end of the day the single most important thing a player can do, and their only job is, to contribute to winning. Ultimately, winning a championship. If a player has a phenomenal peak but only was able to sustain it for a few years (whether that be due to injuries, aging, or anything) and another player had a slightly less impressive peak, but sustained their peak for much longer, then the odds are that the player who played longer contributed more.
Ben Taylor with backpicks has a whole article and podcast series that goes extremely in depth, with the goal of quantifying a players impact to winning. I highly suggest you read it "backpicks top 40" is what you should search. I think most people, and myself included should typically consider a players "greatness" based on their peak and career contributions as a whole.
If you were only looking at who was the best, purely respective to their peaks, that's a different list. Longevity is extremely important.
I mean, you can classify Timmy as both. He spent half of his career and more of his prime years at the position. I think the fact that he would step out a bit definitely contributed to putting him in the PF convo.
Also yes please on the Bird take. I am so sick of people putting him below Steph.
who tf puts bird below steph? where are you people seeing these takes
@@dshawandunwell3892modern fans who have zero respect for the games history. Quite a lot of them actually.
Dude it shouldn't be crazy to put Steph above Bird they both have legendary careers that are comparable to each other
@@baseupp12 It's just proof of how little people value defense and I hate it.
@@jaketerpening3284 no it just shows that Steph is that dominant of an offensive player, when you can literally force the entire league to change their offensive ideology and win multiple rings with it you deserve top ten status
Before Tim Duncan came to the NBA, the consensus was that Kevin McHale was considered the greatest power forward of all time.
I think Larry Bird was just as good of a passer as Magic Johnson. I do consider Magic the better passer simply due to the greater volume of passing and the fact that he kind of ran the Lakers offense with his passing. However, in terms of just passing skill, they were pretty close. They were both able to make incredibly creative and effective passes and made their teammates so much better. I think the reason most people(including myself) consider Magic to be a better passer than Larry Bird has to do more with the role he played on his team rather than him being a much more skilled passer than Bird.
Well, the difference is their playmaking. Their passing ability was very close, but Magic imo has the slight edge. But Magic was clearly the better playmaker. One of the reasons why Magic could play more of an on ball role than bird is because Magic was a better ball handler and driver. Bird thrived more playoff off the ball. And a lot of his best passes were touch passes.
Tbf, most people only see Bird during his twilight years when he was at his worst defensively and athletically. Dude can't even run without stretching and massaging for hours.
Bird could move pretty well before his back injury and dude was definitely athletic
Bird said that he was ready to give the mantle up to Len Bias after he got drafted because his injuries and back was taking its toll. Unfortunately, Bias went and got coked beyond belief and killed himself literally that night or the day after. Bird would've chopped a 1/3 of his career off had Bias came in and did what people thought he was gonna do.
After robinson came nesterovich, oberto, elson, splitter that played next to duncan, woukd you call any of them a pf?
When comparing between eras i always like to look at how many first team all nba a olayer has made, besides playoff success offcourse. Bird made it 9 times, durant 6 and curry 4 times.
Which shows how dominate Bird was since his career was not long.
while i understand why you do that competition at the position also matters, when it comes to pg's and small forwards I think curry and kd had more competition at those spots in their eras than bird. Not downplaying bird's greatness just giving some context.
Durant had to go against Lebron lmao. Birds competition wasn't nowhere as good. Worthy, Drexler and maybe Gervin were his best competition.
@@samraizshoaib585rodman, Dominique Wilkins, Karl Malone , pippen. So bird didn't play vs any of these guys head to head huh? Also pippen and rodman are 2 of the best on ball defenders at both PF and SF in a era that guys played man to man defense.
All NBA's are great, definitely better than all stars and generally objective, but you do have years like this past one where the guy who had the best regular season in the league is second team.
concerning Bird's defense- one must also consider his era. He played in era of physical man-defense, not soft zone like what we have now. his skill set, relying more on thinking the game out rather than on athleticism, would translate better to the modern era. He would actually perform better now then when he played.
I say you're wrong. I don't see Bird running through 4-7 screens per position every time. If the game wasn't so spaced out I'd agree with you though
@@mosstwig3591yeah, he actually benefited by not being as athletic in an era you can use hand checks to slow defenses down, and a center dominated era that makes the paint highly congested. He would do good in early 2000s era when the pace was slow and spacing was awful. This era he just would not be able to do anything against speedy PG/SGs due to the inability to hand check to slow them down and having to move through screens. The spacing in this era is a detriment to unathletic players which is why practically EVERY center shoots the 3 or mid range now to have something to help if they are clunkier on defense.
@@deadprecidentsI agree to a certain extent, however I think bird’s defense would be similar to how jokic plays d
Nope. It's way easier to defend back then, especially with Hand checking and with no flagrant fouls. Him being unathletic benefitted those rules the most. You can just place your hand to your defender, guide him to your comfortable space and then clobber him to stop going to the paint. It's harder to play defense right now, especially with more playstyles run by a team, no hand-checking, quicker and more athletic guys, plus a softer whistle by refs with a flagrant foul that can cost you a game. Look at guys like Luka, Jokic, who are unathletic by NBA standards. They are never known to play good defense. Larry would be the same if he played right now. He would benefit for the softer defense with his offensive bag, but at the cost of having a subpar defensive output.
Excellent video! So I still do the Duncan as a PF but completely hear what your saying. I put KG as best PF if Duncan is considered a center (edging out The Mailman). The Pierce Wade debate is extremely close and I actually lean towards Pierce honestly. Pierce is definitely forgotten on how elite he really was. And again, i agree with you on Bird being a much better defensive player than often credited. Love the takes Jonny!
You're a moron if you think Pierce is better then Flash. They aint on the same level casual.
No wade and pierce is not neck and neck
Wade clears pierce
I had to compare Pierce and Wade's resumes. I at first thought your hot take was ridiculous, but I didn't realize how efficient in scoring Pierce was in his prime. I still think Pierce overrates himself compared to Wade, but his scoring efficiency does make me reconsider if I was wrong all this time.
Pierce was the 2nd best small forward from 2005 to 2011. He usually outplayed Melo when they matched up and went head to head with Lebron James in the playoff.
After Robinson retired, the Spurs still had the twin towers approach with Rasho Nestrovic and Oberto. It was 08-09 when they moved Duncan to center with the lineup having the most minutes has Bonner at PF then the following years Mcdyess, and finally Blair. They then went back with the two big approach with Splitter. The only year Splitter was listed at PF was 12-13 and that is the only year Duncan has an All NBA selection as a center.
I mean the reason we dont list lebron as one of the best small forwards is cause he has like 3 seasons at power forward. If lebron played about half his career listed as a power forward with his best years being at power forward we’d call him a power forward.
Even though Duncan was designated as a Center, his role on offense and defense were more of a PF. There’s a reason why the Spurs always paired Duncan with another big in the paint to take on some of the defensive load against the other bigs. They always got other centers like Mohammed Nazr, Oberto Fabricio, Tiago Splitter. While on defense he certainly played and had responsibilities more aligned like a traditional center, Duncan was a natural at PF and it made basketball sense in the 00’s.
Awesome video as always, especially that take on Pierce, people don't know him in his prime (mostly due to his dumb takes nowadays but still). Also my hot take that shouldn't be hot at all is that Lebron James is a good to great defender throughout his entire career, and in his prime he's one of the best defender ever.
LeBron is a great defender in his 1st stint with the Cavs till Miami. He suddenly lost his defensive drive when he came back to the Cavs. We saw flashes of those days, during crucial moments but was never the same especially during his Miami days where he played his best defensive seasons.
He's a good to great defender, but nowhere near the best. Jordan is way better and I don't think Jordan is the greatest defender of all time. Jordan is top 4 in steals all time despite playing only 16 years. LeBron has played 20 seasons and is top 8. There is about a 300 steal difference between them. Jordan has a better block rate as well.
My hot takes:
1. Kobe Bryant was not an inefficient player. When looking at true shooting percentage and comparing him to guys like Tim Duncan, he's on par with most other greats.
2. A legitimate argument can be made that Larry Bird is the greatest overall player ever in terms of being good to great at every aspect of basketball. To be clear, he did not have the greatest career of all time, I'm talking about strictly in terms of basketball ability.
3. What Steve Nash did for the Suns is no different than what Jason Kidd did for the Nets. But for some reason, Nash got constant recognition for it while Kidd got largely overlooked in the MVP talks. The main reason Nash won it was because of team turnaround once he got to Phoenix, but the same argument can be made for Kidd.
4. The 1998 Pacers are one of the greatest basketball teams ever.
1. I agree.
2. MJ did that even better.
3. I agree. The gap between Nash and Kidd in terms of impact is not much. Kidd was arguably more impactful as he was a terrific defender and rebounder and actually took a team to the NBA Finals.
4. Possibly, but I can't say either way.
@@dynamicflashy Thanks! Regarding #2...
Did he, though? Shooting, rebounding, passing?
Again, no questions asked for me that Jordan is the GOAT. I'm NOT arguing Bird as ths GOAT.
But I'm talking specifically about basketball skill and skill alone. However, I wouldn't be mad at someone picking Jordan in this as well.
Tim Duncan as a Center, is still one of the best centers ever, not the best, but with his resume, team success and defensive quality he's up there for sure
he is 8th or 9th if you PUT JOKIC already there...
TEAM SUCCESS is TEAM SUCCESS...
@@onlyfacts3178Jokic has better individual accolades than Tim already
@@JohnnyScumbaggWhat’s this guy waffling about
@@JohnnyScumbaggsmoking crack I see
@@JohnnyScumbagg Like what
Dope vid Johnny and Shoutout to #ItIsWhatItIs that podcast is 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
David Lee had more impact on the 15 finals than Iggy. It was all media narrative
The question in the original segment was “who had a better career?” Not who was more talented. All hall of fame players will be extraordinarily talented so someone like Kobe can still have a tough matchup with someone like Tmac on any given night. But in terms of career accomplishments, Wade-pierce is much less close
Even though the gap between Paul pierce and d-wade is exaggerated, I still think d wade has a huge edge over him and it’s not really comparable. Paul pierce brings up the fact that d wade had Chris Bosh and Lebron, and that if he had those stars he would have won more rings than d wade, which is almost laughable in my eyes. Dwayne wade in 2011 played far better than not just everyone else on the court (even though dirk certainly has an argument), he far exceeded Paul pierces production in the 08 and 2010 finals. Dwayne wades worst finals series for the heat came in 2013 and 2014, when he was battling knee injuries, while still managing to bring defensive production only slightly outmatched by Paul pierces in the 08 and 2010 finals, where he was the primary defender on Kobe, but I think ray Allen could have played that role in a similar fashion, as the Celtics help defense was really what slowed Kobe down in those series. On top of all that, those weren’t even Dwayne wades legacy defining moments, and Dwayne wade in the 06 finals accomplished something that Paul pierce cannot even imagine doing, and in his 08-09, and 09-10 regular season performances, showed a higher level of scoring than Paul pierce has ever had and elevated his team far more than Paul pierce did in his prime years. Even though the gap is certainly exaggerated by most basketball fans, d wade still has the edge by a large amount.
COOK.
Pierce is no where near Flashs level. Comparing them is complete and utter disrespect to Prime Wade. One of the most unguardable players of all time.
Bro put up a bunch of scoring numbers for Paul Pierce and said they were close like Wade was better at literally every facet of the game minus rebounding(barely, and you can argue that relative to position Wade was WAY better) and three point shooting…THATS IT. I could throw up a bunch of crazy Bradley Beal/Devin Booker/Donovan Mitchell scoring feats and then say they’re close to Wade according to this dude
@@outlawjoe5447 Want to know what's funny about the 3pt shooting. In head to head matchups when Wade and Pierce faced off against eachother in both Season and playoffs. Wade had a slightly higher 3pt% then Pierce LOL at almost 31% for Wade and pierce at 30. So the one thing Pierce thinks he has over Wade he doesn't lmao plus there playoffs 3pt% is literally the same too. wade at 33.8 and Pierce slightly above 35.
Ik this is late, but if you’re going to compare numbers you should use Paul pierces prime in 06
I honestly didn't realize modern basketball fans didn't know Bird was a good defender. As a guy who watched him play, not only was he good, he was frustrating because sometimes he seemed to be out of position to make a defensive play, but then he'd steal the ball and there go the Celtics heading the other way.
racists just assume that because he's white he couldn't defend
His game doesn't translate to UA-cam that well.
KG becomes the greatest pf
Loved this video, would love to see a part 2!!!
I love Bird and he definitely played hard on defense, and was an incredible rebounder but he was really only a good help defender. He would guard a weaker player and gamble to get steals, hence his high steal count. He was great at reading defenses and guarding passing lanes but got scored on a ton because he left his player open.
Not all defense is about one on one, its about defending the other team from scoring period, even if it requires driving a player to a spot on the floor that they're not comfortable being in.
I think too many fans treat defense like Boxing one on one.
Early in M.J's career teams used to let MJ go for two or three quarters and then Double him, and his teammates were Ice cold. Ironically it was the Celtics that did that.
Team defense > man defense
It's all about team defense. The same could he said about Ben Wallace benefiting from the team defense of that Pistons squad.
If you take the numbers Timmy played virtually 50/50 between Center and PF (Listed in BasketballRef), indeed it shouldnt be a HOT take but i still believe Tim Duncan to be a PF in essence, he played his prime years in the position and had his most dominant years in it.I Believe there is a debate but personally i believe its the same situation as AD, he was a PF and as he got older he transition into a C/PF type of player and i wouldnt discredit Duncan as the Greatest PF just by this transition in the context of his carrer
What numbers are you reading?
Regular season: 36% PF, 63% center
Playoffs: 29% PF, 71% center
That’s not virtually 50/50.
What was virtually 50/50 was his peak years between the positions.
@@roundtable3501 I calculated based of Listed Position (Basketball Ref), not actual data from a game to game basis, of course if there's this kind of data is way more accurate than what i posted
@@Locoga1000
Yes. It’s on basketball reference. Look at the “play by play” section on Tim Duncan’s page.
I watched Pierce playing from 07 till he left Boston. Indeed, he performed excellenty at both ends, a solid team player, a clutch scorer. A team can achieve great result either him or Wade.
Pierce could never lead that 2006 Heat to the title 🤡 they aint on the same level
@@MistahJay7Wade had to rely on getting the bs star calls to score. Pierce just shot you down and did it on his own.
@@AGHathaway Thanks for letting me know you are a casual. Flash was the GOAT at getting people into foul trouble with his game under the basket with his Hesitstion dribbles and fakeouts combined with his insane speed. You know nothing
@@MistahJay7crazy how being a foul baiter is a good thing when you’re wade but bad when you’re harden embiid or trae
Jonny we know why Larry doesn't get credit for being a good defender. It's because he's a white dude that doesn't look the part of an elite athlete lol. I feel like that goofy stereotype has permeated a lot of basketball discussions.
Duncan a pf when Robinson left Tiago splitter was the center Duncan only played 5 in his later years. and Lebron didn’t play pf in Miami Joel Anthony was their center I believe his name was…Bosh was the 4
My hot take that really shouldn't be a hot take is that Tim Duncan has an argument for beign the third best player ever, and if you think that's too high for him then he should not be any lower then five. Lebron, Mj, Magic, and Bird are the only players that I think have good arguments for beign better then him
My lame hot take was Allen Iverson was a shooting guard and not a point guard. Iverson played both positions in his career!
That’s not a hot take, AI is listed as a SG
@@quackmemes5410 yeah but he played point guard as well during his rookie year when Jerry Stackhouse was the starting shooting guard and later in like 05-06 when Andre Iguodala and Kyle Krover were on the Sixers.
Iverson's problem wasn't that he was confused about whether he was a SG or PG, it's that he thought he was the only player on the floor. One of the most overrated players ever. The guy was horribly inefficient and his attitude and playing style was so poor that nobody wanted to play with him. For several years in the league, the last place you wanted to land was Philly. Iverson thought he was the entire team and he played that way. It was basically Iverson running around like a chicken with its head cut off and everybody else on his team trying to figure out WTF he was doing. It's a miracle Larry Brown was able to actually get something out of him for that one season in 2001. Probably because they traded for the DPOY and had 6th Man of the Year.
You'll never find another player who is so absolutely inefficient and intolerable to deal with that the Coach of the Year award goes to a guy just because he was able to make it work for half a season.
@@logicaldude3611how do you down vote this rant .
He played more point guard in the regular season, but shooting guard in the playoffs.
Duncan played most years alongside a traditional center, and not just the Admiral. He played with Rasho Nesterovic, Fabricio Oberto, Thiago Splitter, Aron Baynes, Boban, etc... Sure he's got some qualities of a center but you can't just say he's not a PF.
Great video jonny I feel like we debated some of these on stream before.....my hot take is Tracy McGrady was neck and neck with Kobe in his prime or Carmelo Anthony had a better rookie year than LeBron
T Mac was NEVER that good😭🤦🏾♂️. And I can say million reasons why Kobe was better at his peak (even though his peak is a little overrated too) and only just a couple of things the other way around
@@bonystickmanking1250
What year was you born?
@@bonystickmanking1250 T Mac was NEVER that good... Are you INSANE?!?!
It's funny how people think TMac was bad on defense, yet his defensive Stats were better than Kobe's. I'm convinced Shaq could have won those 3 Laker rings with T-Mac instead of Kobe.
@@Cakebattered TMac was a defensive specialist in Toronto.... These guys weren't even alive when McGrady played. I just ignored them. Now I know how these old heads feel.
Greatest PFs of all time in no particular order: (sorry I still have to consider Tim Duncan as a PF)
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin McHale
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. Kevin Garnett
My hottest take. 02 kings getting screwed out of a championship is so overblown. I'll give you that game 6 was a joke, but that's usually where the conversation stops. No one talks about how they still had game 7 at home and had the chance to overcome what happened in game 6 and basically become legends. And what did they do? Absolutely choked
Agree and that’s why I don’t feel bad about us winning that series or championship (admittedly with some bias lol)
Probably because they were so discouraged at the atrocity committed against them prior, kinda like with the 2018 finals,not really the same situation since it was smith who was at fault and not the refs but the Cavs needed to win g1, the kings needed to win g6, the warriors had just come off a 16-1 playoff run, the lakers had just come off a 15-1 playoff run, sometimes after stuff like that happens the chemistry just isn’t the same
I don't honestly fall for it being as rigged as advertised (unlike the 2016 finals for LBJ). However, assuming the Kings thought it was rigged, they could have been emotionally drained. Examples are the Spurs in 2013 after the Ray Allen shot. Spurs were the better team but lost the series in a close one. Kobe in 06 vs phoenix where after game 6, he acquiesced to the coach and media and they got blown out.
@@cameronno6039 imagine still thinking that the 16 finals are rigged lmao
@@goddammitnappa1617hes 100% a kobe fan who hates lebron and thinks kobe is better than him all time lol
Theres a somewhat popular podcast with three younglings that talks basketball, and they LEGITIMALY believe Larry Bird was a liability on defense, and thats fucking crazy.
Time Duncan: the greatest ROLE PLAYER of all time. Knew his role, never stepped outside of it..never did anything extra or extraordinary...just played his role, and his role only. Never developed anything new, never tried. Just played his role....and was the greatest and most consistent role player ever.
Thanks Jonny for your hot takes!
LeBrons best years were arguably not with the heat though, Tim Duncan is clearly an amazing power forward
They were.
The bird disrespect is sad. I despise the Celtics with a passion but I still need to give Larry his flowers. Dude is KD but a better passer, playmaker, defender, and isn't a choker
It's racism pure and simple. Had Bird been black, there would be no disrespect.
@@janoycresnova9156 doubt it, people just like to disrespect older players that they never got to see play because they think their generation is better. Doubt skin color has anything to do with it cause bill russel, wilt, moses malone and even magic get similar treatment and all those players are black.
Plays nothing like KD
@@janoycresnova9156that lil white boy ain’t even crackin the bench in todays league. He’s Just Brian scalabrine if he played in the Stone Age
They're pretty even on defense imo. Durants the better shot blocker and his athleticism helps. Birds obviously stronger.
He's the wrose 3pt shooter, mid range shooter and finisher though. And Durants clutch as f. Yes, he's choled at times but you gonna tell me bird didn't?
Thank you for the take on Paul ppl really dont know his game
I respectfully push back hard against the d wade paul pierce segment. Wade's peak as a player was just so much higher. His defense, actually being the best player on a championship team, higher scoring peaks, and ability to efficiently create offense through generating contact at the rim put him on a different level than paul
Wade is definitely the better player and its not a debate we all know its wade, but as far as scoring the truth is better and if he the help wade had he might be just as accomplished.
Also you have to have confidence to be the best
Paul pierce disrespect is crazy
it's because h e's in the celtics played for a white franchise
He kinda deserved it lol Wade is the one that is most disrespected. I mean the fact that its even a convo is already the most disrespectful part 😂
Lol no. He's bringing it to himself. Wade was better in every aspect of the game except shooting. Even if we switched their careers, Wade would still have a better career than Pierce.
The Duncan situation is similar to the Jerry West situation. A lot of ppl likento rank Jerry West amongst the shooting guards but he was listed as a point guard for most of his career.
Duncan is as good as kobe and shaq
Birda is as good as Magic
Wilt is a lot better than Bill
Tim was a PF in the NBA. He wasn't even listed as a center until 2007, after all his best accolades were accomplished, and four years after D Rob left. And then he played with centers like Oberto, Splitter, etc.
Nice video, Jonny. I have long thought of Duncan as a PF, but your video, along with knowing that he played Center too has given me more food for thought. I can definitely see the case for him being one of the best centers. Personally, I would put Kareem and Wilt ahead of him and would need to think more of how Russell, Olajuwon and Shaq would rank with Duncan in the conversation. Definitely something I want to think more about.
As for who would be the best PF w/o Duncan in the conversation, that is a tough one. I see solid cases for Barkley, Malone, and KG.
Have a great weekend 😊
Its pretty clearly Malone or KG. Barkley is a clear step below Malone and KG.
Garnett has a ring on Malone but Malone was the clear number 1 player on his tean for both finals and matched evenly if not better against Jordan in them. Garnett was not the clear best player on the Celtics. Malones miles better at scoring and was a force on defense still as well as having better longevity than Garnett. Garnett was ofcourse great on offense and was generational on defense clearing Malone by a gap. Tossup imo.
@@samraizshoaib585 Hot take: Malone would be out of the top-10 in the PF discussion without Stockton.
@@Halcyon_XD Top-10 Power Forwards, not "the" top-10 list. Most lists I have seen have Karl as one of the 10 best Power Forwards of all time.
@@c99kfmlying mf
@@JACQUEZ23 First reply in this thread lists Malone and Garnett as the second and third best Power Forwards of all time, after Duncan. But YMMV.
Duncan actually didn't switch full-time to Center until the secind half of his career after he declined.
LeBron wouldn't be listed as a PF because he spent the most of his best years as a SF. He won most [or all] of his championships, MVPs, All-NBA/Defense selections, & FMVPs as a SF.
He was only a PF in his '13/'14/'18/'23 seasons.
Tim was never a center
Consistently great content, I really enjoyed this one. Thanks for keeping 'em educated on Larry Legend.
The funny thing with Pierce argument is not the size of the gap but the unanimous existence of it
🎯
A lot of bird's steals at home were from knowing all the dead spots in the court at the celtics arena, something every other NBA player did not know. He would guard them in a way that would force them to dribble the ball into the dead spot allowing bird to get an easy steal. This shows as his steals per game at home is higher than steals per game away.
Jokic also unfairly suffers from the "unathletic white guy can't play defense" trope.
Does he really? Still?
i agree with your Pierce take(as a Wade fan who managed to watch both Wade and Pierce)
and that is despite his lots of trash takes after retiring.
his situation is the same with Kg vs Tim, Tmac vs Kobe. THeir careers could be better if swap in those situations.
he was never a top 5 player unlike wade
@@mike04574 too young to watch early 2000s basketball, casual?
@@mike04574when was wade ever a top 5 player?
@@ynot3094huhhhh😭😭😭🤦🏾♂️
Pierce was never what Flash was from 2004-2009. Pierce would never lead that 2006 Miami team to the championship.
A couple hot takes that I don't think should be hot takes:
Bill Russell should not be considered as the best defender of all time because he has no officially recorded steals blocks and defensive player of the the Year Awards.
Wilt Chamberlain deserved the MVP over Bill Russell multiple times
John Stockton is severely underrated. All-time leader in assists and steals, it should definitely be valued more than it is.
Rings earned in different eras have different value.
I agree with the three final ones, but the reason Bill Russell shouldn't be considered the best defender of all time is because of how Wilt shut him down, while he couldn't shut Wilt down, leading to (among other things) Wilt's 55 rebounds against the Celtics. Bill himself acknowledged Wilt as the greatest player who ever lived, and for their shared position, I'm not arguing against eleven rings.
@@c99kfm I didn't know Wilt's 55 rebound game was against the Celtics, that's funny
@@PlatinumJug
Bill can be considered the best defensive player even without those stats, because one doesn’t need basic box score stats to measure defensive ability. We have the defensive ratings for the Celtics and the Celtics have the best regular season and playoff defenses ever. And in games Russell missed, the Celtics became a below average defensive team. So Bill single handedly made the Celtics teams the best defensive teams ever. Defensive player of the year award is also a meaningless awards. The people voting don’t know what they’re taking about. And there’s at least 10 years where the winner of the defensive player of the year has been quite absurd to say the least. And I don’t think rings should be used at all to rank players because rings are a team thing. I think it should be how much an individuals impacts their team.
@@c99kfm
That’s isn’t a good argument. First off, in that 55 rebound game the Celtics won, and wilt shot 15 from 42 from the field which is a terrible 35.7% field goal percentage. So bill did shut wilt down. Wilt shot 50.9% from the field that season. So that’s 15% below his average. A lot of wilt’s rebounds that game were either defensive rebounds that the Celtics missed or wilt own shots as he missed 27 shots that game which is very bad. Nextly, using one game to discredit a player isn’t very sound. And bill did shut wilt down consistently. Wilt’s scoring volume, efficient, and playmaking shot down against the Celtics. Hence why the Celtics continually beat wilt’s teams. Even in years like 1969 where wilt had Jerry west and Elgin Baylor.
Wade is top 20 of all-time. Pierce is arguably top 75. He was good but it's not close.
Wade sucks dude. Top 20???
Hot take- the top of the greatest players list should only consist of those that won MVP and finals MVP at least one time - 12: Steph 13: Moses 14: Giannis 15: Joker 16: Dirk. 17: KD. Then Mikan, Cousy, and Petit who won the championship, best players on their team, and were the best players in the league as well. Those 3 aren’t better than modern players but for IMPACT- they are 18-19 and 20
Tim Duncan is a center! THANK YOU!!! I have to be the biggest Tim Duncan fan I know and I will vouch and defend this man whenever disrespected. But when ever I hear spurs fans call him the greatest power forward ever, I cringe a little because he really plays like a center. You are the only other person I’ve heard call him a center and I thank you
Not a spurs fan. Laker fan account.
Basketball fans when they learn a player can be more than one position at once:
@@technica6338 what are you saying?
People laughing at Pierce like, come on guys. He was one of the best on his time(era). And yes, he's absolutely right about not having any teammates in his prime. I still freaking remember always picking Celtics in 2k03 and nbalive03 because of Pierce. Imagine having just Shaq or KG or Bosh plus 1 good PG all on their primes.
I'm pretty sure Walton and Olajuwon could imagine that. Hakeem had winning in his name.
Switch Prime Pierce with Wade on the 06 Heat and they don't even go to the finals 💀. Flash is a Full tier ahead of Pierce and its not close
My hot take Oscar robertson is extremely overrated, he put up stats that were achieved by a current player that most don’t even consider top five pg (Russ) in the same era where wilt is sometimes discredited for playing against plumbers.
Terrible take😂
@@rylen_moore18u cant just say bad take and not have a counter argument lol
•Got eliminated in the first round of the playoffs 5 out of the 10 times he's been there
• From ages 28-31 he was putting up great numbers but his Cincinnati Royals missed the playoffs for three consecutive seasons.
• Never made the finals until getting to Milwaukee with and Kareem saved his career.
• Wasn't even the 2nd best player on his team when he won the title in 1971. Bob Dandridge and Kareem were both better.
• Was the ultimate "empty stats" guy for most of his career. Never led his teams to any success in the playoffs before Kareem got there. Mostly just 30-40 win seasons.
•Only led his Royals teams to one 50+ win season in one of the weakest conferences in history
First off, Russ achieved for 1 season what Robertson did for his first 7 seasons in the league. In that one season he got a deserved mvp despite being only the sixth seed. Second ppg wasnt actually much higher back then, unlike rebounds. Also unlike Wilt he didnt play 45 minutes per game so his stats arent as inflated. As for the plumber argument, it has always been completely rubbish. I think he should be rated somewhere between number 15 and 20 on the all-time list. It is hard to argue that he wasnt a top 4 player of his era so its pretty hard to rate him outside the top 30.
Oscar is a 6'5 PG who averaged double digit rebounds multiple times back when players were living under the rim, nobody was shooting 3s for the 🏀 to bounce further, so objectively u're wrong . He's actually super underrated .
I count Tim as a Power Forward because even if you just look at his time as a Power Forward I’d still consider him a top 3 easily
When you say top 3 all time you better be talking about players ever and not just PF
I disagree with the Pierce take. Now both are HOF players but one is a top 30-35ish player oat vs someone who’s probably out of the top 50. Piece has half the all nba team, less all star teams, and peak for peak despite playing in the same era, Wade has a scoring championship unlike Pierce yet Pierce claims to be the better scorer. Wade was also an elite defender and he was a better all around offensive player than Pierce because Wade had an elite pick and roll game. Wade is top 3 in his position while Pierce is probably 8th in his. The gap is pretty big here.
I mean, saying that an NBA player played as center in high school is not really a reason to classify them as center for their pro career.
Some of these NBA players (not all) have early growth spurts and end up being way taller than kids of their age, making them ideal centers for any youth team
I agree. It’s not like we can classify AD as a pg because he played that position in high school.
Michael Beasley is one of the greatest scorers to have ever touched a basketball, also one of the best rebounders from the snall forward positiions, and an extremely underrated facilitator
Blud never even averaged 20 PPG
In what make believe universe?
You're family ?
When categorizing players, it helps to consider 6 spots instead of 5:
* Pure 1: CP3, Steve Nash
* 1-2: AI, Steph
* 2-3: Jordan, Bird
* 3-4: LeBron, Barkley
* 4-5: Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem, Russell
* Pure 1: Wilt, Shaq, Kareem
A small portion tend to stay as pure 2, 3, 4, like Reggie, Dominque, and K Malone. They seem to be the exceptions, and could mostly do it because they were so good at that role.
Man people laugh when I say bird is top 3, watching him play was insane and if he had the type of talent magic had around him (not saying bird didn't have talent his teams were stacked) or played in the west he would of easily had more rings
My hot take that shouldn't be hot.
Larry Bird is the greatest SF ever! LeBron is 2nd.
Yea I don't think Pierce is anywhere close to Prime Wade from 2005-2009. A complete whole Tier Under Wade.
Wade was closer to Kobe at the peak of his powers before his injuries. His Ring and FMVP in 2006 to me is one of the most underrated and overlooked championships of all time. People just look at the boxscore and see that Wade got 15 fts a game and just say "rigged" when the truth is Prime Flash was one of the most unguardable players of all time. No one could stay infront of Flash. That championship is much more impressive then Pierce's FMVP in 2008 with his superteam Celtics where KG easily could have won FMVP too. I also have zero problem with Pierce talking himself up all the time and saying he is better. I kinda like it when stars are cocky like that lol it's entertaining.
Tim Duncan should be classified as a "big man" that can play either. Like Steph Curry is a "combo guard" he doesn't even run the Warriors offense, Draymond does.
Draymond does not run the warriors offense. Most of his assist are dishes to open players after curry created the open look.
Tim played PF because that was his natural position. He excelled at that position. When he transitioned to the C spot that to me was when we really saw him flourish.
@the larry bird take, let's talk about Joe Ingles, Bojan Bogdonovic, and the blatantly racial reasons that Rudy Gobert got the credit for what was largely their hard work on that end of the floor
Put Pierce on the Heat in 2006 in Wades position and they are losing that finals that's even if they get there which I doubt lol he could never do what Wade did and that is why he is a tier below even tho Pierce is all time great also.
Kobe played all positions in high school. Honestly, I think the whole aspect of roles/positions has been much more liberally defined as basketball has progressed over the last 10+ years. I think it really depends on what their actual play style and size was and which positions were most accommodating to it. Most PF's and C's can swap generally.
@@EternalJuggernaut_TheFinalBoss I get that I'm just saying using the whole what position they were in high school or college seems kind of misleading. The whole concept of positions haven't really been that important anyways - just look at guys like Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace - both are shorter than ideal for the positions they played, but they played them incredibly well.
I think ppl tend to underrate what it really meant to get All-Defensive selections in the 80s/90s. In the modern NBA only a handful of players play real Defense so the All-Defensive team is typically an easy choice. But in the 80s/90s playing Defense was a requirement, so to win All-Defensive in an era where everyone played Defense really meant you were elite of the elite.
I won't say that Tim Duncan never played the center position. He did. But, to quote John Adams, "Facts are stubborn things." Here is a chronological list of the centers that Tim Duncan started with: (1) David Robinson; (2) Will Perdue; (3) Shawnelle Scott; (4) Cherokee Parks; (5) Kevin Willis; (6) Rasho Nesterovic; (7) Francisco Elson; (8) Fabricio Oberto; (9) Jackie Butler; (10) Kurt Thomas; (11) Drew Gooden; (12) DeJuan Blair; (13) Theo Ratliff; (14) Tiago Splitter; (15) Boris Diaw; (16) Aaron Baynes; (17) LaMarcus Aldridge; (18) Boban Marjanovic. As you can see, it is just incorrect to infer that, once David Robinson retired, Tim Duncan became the Spurs' starting center.
Tim Duncan started 1,389 games in his carreer. He started with one of the above teammates in 1,170 of them. When he started with any of the above teammates, those players were the center, not Tim Duncan. That leaves 219 games in which Tim Duncan did, in fact, start at center, which accounts for about 15.8% of this starts.
Now, admittedly, DeJuan Blair and Boris Diaw were not traditional centers, but when they started with Tim, they did, in fact, match up with the opposing team's center. Also, LaMarcus Aldridge and Tim often played interchangeably against the other team's center in 2016. But even if (for the sake of argument) all of those games are conceded as Tim starting at center, that would only account for 303 of Tim Duncan's starts, increasing the number of starts at center from 219 to 522, or 37.6% of Tim's starts.
The conclusion is that no matter how it's counted, the overwhelming number of Tim Duncan's starts were, in fact, at the Power Forward position. I hope this clears things up.
THANK GOD FOR YOU! DOING THE LORDS WORK!!!
Jonny is a Kobe fan and laker sycophant, so he hates on the spurs whenever possible.
Only casuals that never watched spurs games make the argument that Tim was a center. Such a joke!
“Facts are stubborn things.”
Basketball reference play by play data:
Tim Duncan:
Regular season: 36% PF, 63% Center
Playoffs: 29% PF, 71% Center
The conclusion is what all it takes is one trip to basketball reference to see where a player plays a position. The NBA has had statisticians map out exactly where a player plays every minute of their time since 1997. So there’s no need for someone on UA-cam to try and guess the time they played at a position. I hope this clears things up.
@@maurygoldblat8982
“Casuals” or people that actually look at play by play data that’s in which every possession of every game has been tracked since 1997 lol. I would call people who don’t look at this data that actual casuals.
Thank you. Duncan is a center. Dirk is the best PF of all time.
Gianni’s gonna take tht spot
I think Giannis has already eclipsed Dirk.
@@dynamicflashy me too but I stil consider Duncan the goat and he hasn’t eclipsed that yet
@@coolbreeze369jcok we’ve established that duncan isn’t a PF, and if he is, then so is lebron lol so lebron is better
Naw it's Duncan
100% agreed. Wade was more athletic so definitely more highlights. And as great as Duncan was, no one could stop Barkley or Malone either.
TBH I think Malone would have been widely considered as the GOAT PF if he won a couple of rings.
My hot take that shouldn’t be hot is that bill russell is criminally overrated. He averaged 14 a game on 44% shooting. That’s fucking terrible. He’s NEVER came top 3 in scoring ON HIS OWN TEAM! If you don’t have the ability to take over a game with your scoring you shouldn’t be considered a top 10 player of all time.
Iverson and melo are both also grossly overrated
Saying any think for likes and clicks 🙉😂
So you’re saying he won 11 championships while being bad at offense?? Must have been a pretty good defender then, huh? I rest my case
@@celtics17banners84 he had the most stacked team of all time in an era of 7-10 teams and no free agency so there was literally nothing anybody could do about it. Put Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace on a team in that era with John Havlicek bob cousy Sam jones Tom heinson kc jones etc and they’d win 11 rings too. There’s was no way anybody could compete with that
@@omarionbrown3075speaking facts*
He won as player-coach in 2 seasons IIRC. He's rated. I won't say over or undr. No one puts him in the GOAT argument, but he still won 11/13 rings. No one was able to dethrone him with any consistency.
Of course Bird is a top 10 player of all time. Arguably top 5.
Kobe is better than lebron
Prepare to be inundated with longevity stats and skewed numbers by LeBron 🥜huggers
Is a hot take
Absolutely delusional
Lebron has
4 mvps to Kobe’s 1
4 fmvps to Kobe’s 2
More efficient scorer by far
Better rebounder by far
Better passer by FAR
Better teammate and leader
@@MyDixieNormisevery time
@@MyDixieNormisAND was probably on par defensively at his peak. Deserved a DPOY.