At the end of the day, the customer does not care about your stack but about the product you build for them. I'd rather outsource opionions of auth, security, database abstractions and migrations to battle-tested frameworks and focus on the crafting the business logic for my clients. Laravel shines in being able to take the best of both worlds and shipping with a backwards compatibility promise that gives me time to upgrade to the latest and greatest.
The fact that people in JS "ecosystem" are paying for SaaS starter kits shows that there is an interest for option to just start building right away without having to setup/integrate 10 packages.
I think the reason is Adonis has opinions that fit with the Laravel / MVC mindset and not JS ecosystem mindset. If Adonis used TRPC, server actions, etc. And had opinions for how it did mailing, notifications, etc. Then the JS community would be all for it. I think it's coming. And if people still build amazing things until that happens, then the web would be a better place.
@@devagr Adonis is exactly like Laravel but written in JS, it is a batteries included BACKEND framework, and we end it there, at the backend, it doesn't integrate any front-end frameworks like react or vue or anything, they render html on the server, this is why the framework doesn't take off, why use that when there is already Laravel or Rails and the trust Laravel and Rails have is huge compared to that.
@@devagr The only true alternative to laravel for js would be something like RedwoodJS imo, a full frontend to backend batteries included framework. But people are still buying Next.js SaaS starter kits over that, which again, makes me believe it's more about trust and marketing then anything else. Next.js has a huge reputation, it's what the big guys use, Redwood doesn't. Also there are a lot of stupid people believeing that they need to do what big companies do otherwise they will never grow, not realising that 99.99% of theyr projects will not pass 100$ MRR
Please understand that a large part of the JavaScript and React.js community doesn't want to have this Theo dude speak for us! This guy changed his recommended tech every 3 weeks it seems, already Remix branding going away now ut will be all rolled into the react router I think...
Yeah for me personally I knew it wasn’t worth taking Theo’s advice seriously when he said “feeling smart” was important to him. I’d rather be dumb but actually get stuff done tbh
Theo is one of the youtubers I hit "Don't recommend this channel" and my youtube browsing experience immediately improved. I kind of forgot about him until I saw this video's thumbnail tbh. I don't hate him, but he's (for lack of a better term) kind of bitchy at times. Gets mad on Twitter frequently, rages against things he disagrees with (Github copilot workspace video for instance), seems to lack perspective outside of web but isn't aware of that. Maybe this is an ironic thing to see after I called him bitchy; but hes kind of just a toxic prescence in the community imo.
Theo thinks PHP frameworks like Laravel aren’t modular or flexible yet we have the PHP-FIG which defines interfaces so we can swap in different packages. I don’t see JS frameworks having any advantages over Laravel. He also didn’t mention the benefit of all Laravel apps having the same folder structure and naming conventions which makes it easier to on board into a new codebase.
I would say ease of deployment (right now) is probably where JS ecosystem wins out. But great point regarding folder / naming conventions. I think Laravel 11 (slim file structure) helps make this more appealing for people coming from bare bone React frameworks.
@@joshcirre Really surprised to hear you say JS is easier to deploy. Are you thinking of things like Vercel? For Laravel we have Forge. In the old days LAMP hosting was prevalent and you just had to upload your files. Or do you mean JS is easier since it is natively supported by services like AWS Lambda and Cloudflare?
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 *🗣️ Laravel is getting a lot of attention recently, with videos and discussions around its strengths.* 00:23 *⌛ The video explores why there isn't a JavaScript equivalent to Laravel, an all-in-one web framework like Rails.* 00:52 *💻 The goal is not to criticize specific frameworks, but to understand why an all-in-one JS framework hasn't emerged.* 01:35 *👨💻 Laravel is praised for its comprehensive ecosystem, including features like mail servers, notifications, and live updates.* 02:27 *⚡ Laravel's Livewire allows dynamic front-end UI updates without leaving PHP, powered by the server-side code.* 03:27 *🧩 Having an all-in-one framework with solutions for various problems is valuable and appealing.* 04:22 *🕸️ The alternatives to Rails back then, like the MEAN stack, were modular but often incompatible or lacking.* 05:31 *🔄 Laravel and Rails have garnered trust and stability over time, offering solutions for different application needs.* 06:52 *🚀 The JavaScript world allows for more modularity with less pain, which is the thesis of the video.* 07:19 *🔍 The video explores several attempts at all-in-one JS frameworks, like Blitz, Adonis, and Redwood, which haven't gained widespread adoption.* 21:20 *🤷♂️ Having many options in JavaScript may feel overwhelming at first, but it's hard to pick a wrong solution if it's recommended online and recent.* 21:49 *⚛️ JavaScript's composability and flexibility make the desire for all-in-one frameworks less necessary.* 22:18 *⏭️ While new approaches like Next.js server components emerge, create-t3-app still recommends the proven client-side rendering approach used for projects like Ping.* 22:47 *🚀 The ability for startups to form around specific pieces in the JavaScript ecosystem is not a failure but a strength.* 23:26 *🔍 The discussion is not about React vs Laravel, but about whether developers need opinionated, first-party packages for core services like queues and databases.* 24:23 *🧩 JavaScript allows teams to pick and choose solutions tailored to their application's specific needs.* 24:51 *🔐 Authentication is an example where a dedicated service or package can excel by handling complexities like compliance and integration.* 25:47 *🔄 JavaScript fosters an ecosystem where startups, services, and open-source alternatives coexist and evolve.* 26:30 *🌳 The ability to ship and stick with older versions of JavaScript frameworks is a strength, not a negative.* 26:58 *👑 The flexibility and vibrant ecosystem in JavaScript are unrivaled strengths, not weaknesses as perceived by other communities.* Made with HARPA AI
The issue with Theo is that he is a fanboy and the real world is far from his world. Companies do not glue different packages. they use the stuff that have built-in stuff like laravel or angular!
I think, to be fair to Theo, his world is the YC/Bootstrapped small teams who are building with as close to bleeding edge (bleed responsibly) tech as possible. I think those companies, like his, ARE gluing different things together. But, like I said, as long as you're shipping awesome things. Do what works for you. But there is a benefit to knowing that a framework owns every piece you're using. People hate on NextJS/Vercel for trying to do this with databases, etc. but I am all for it.
One more point.. In collaboration-based projects, in real life teams, there is no room for picking and choosing, for desires to be a snowflake, and trying to have unreachable control on every small aspect of the project, this seems selfish to say the least, and so: self centered. Just look at the sheer power and unique coordination and harmony that a small team of laravel developers has, finishing each other's.. lines😊 They will work in perfect synergy putting projects first and personal preferences last, proving that consistency and uniformity benefits team communication while making future maintainability efforts much more easier.
Great point. If you hire a Laravel developer, you know that they generally know how to touch every point of the app. Hiring a React dev, they might not have worked in something like NextJS or used Drizzle or what have you. Obviously easy things for a mid-senior dev to learn, but still important to consider.
Hey Josh, I think the missing link with JS and Laravel is a Breeze option that allows authentication for mobile apps. Right now I think everyone is having to reinvent the wheel every time for auth for all projects except same-domain. Someone started a breeze JWT project but its abandoned.
I agree with that. I think an additional benefit (like I mentioned) is that when it's maintained and "owned" by the framework authors it only makes things easier. The external projects are great that are solving this, but Auth.js is still too disconnected from the frameworks it associates with. I'm betting on Astro for this. 👀
The issue I always have with choice is that I tend to always question my choice... In my case, choice is detrimental. I should be more worried about business logic, but I'm more worried about picking tech debt.
And I think it’s okay if you do like choosing. For me, I’m like you. I just want to know I’m doing something that’s supported, has a ton of info and docs for, and works with the rest of my app. I get that with Laravel.
@@joshcirre Any good architect must do it, forget anything super shiny and new, look for battle-tested tool/libs and check if the community still alive and well.
I have not heard any mention of Conduit which touts itself as a "Batteries-included backend that works with any stack." It includes Authentication, Chat, Database, Email, Forms, Push Notifications, Routes, SMS, 2FA, Storage...etc. It's all JavaScript and it just works.
I have not heard of it so thank you for bringing it up. I always like to try to learn tools like this to make sure I understand as many facets of the ecosystem as possible. Generally, I think (like mentioned in the video), long term stability and being around long enough to prove usefulness is bigger than most people think. Just look at Gatsby.
@@joshcirre Agreed. Gatsby never really stood out as a viable option to me unless I wanted an optimized static site, and who builds static sites anymore.
Good video. I like the positive vibe style of response to someone who disagrees. Side note, I think you might have sample rate/sync related clicks sneaking into your audio.
This is like comparing a pre-made PC by a professional, where you know everything will work well together and that got your back if anything goes wrong, even though you don't really know what goes on under the hood, or trying to build your own with parts from different sources. It's more customisable and you can change any part independently but chances are you'll encounter issues and then you're pretty much on your own. In the end it depends what you value most..
What happened to Symphony? I haven't been in the php ecosystem for almost a decade. Loved the ruby on rails module generation approach. NestJS is the closest I've used in the JS ecosystem.
@@joshcirre You deffo should try it, coming from Laravel it's easy enough to learn, but I find that I tend to like it even more. It's kinda like the middle ground between Django and Laravel
For me, the appeal for the JS ecosystem was and is always: Code sharing between the backend and the frontend. While also not having to go outside the scope to add interactivity to the website / web app.
Good point. That's why I love Laravel Livewire / Volt. You get the same code in the same file, but you have this colocation of back-end and front-end logic.
code sharing is over-rated and causes more problems than it fixes. In small projects, its fine, but in larger long running projects it causes massive headaches. There is a reason MVC architecture became popular, and on a larger perspective the separation of domain, business, persistence and presentation layers.
@@darylphuah Just having the ability to share the interfaces/types without having to convert between languages is a huge benefit. But yeah, maybe for enterprise it's different. The video's topic was not about enterprise-sized projects, though.
@@darylphuah Agreed. The language might be the same, but the domain problems are completely different. Code sharing _seems_ good, but that's because people think JS on the frontend and JS on the backend are the same skillsets
Theo has some interesting things to say, often. Thanks for your commentary, it is fantasico. I'm very late to Laravel, v10 was when I started using it seriously but man, glad I did. I can, up to a point now, not write any JS if I try hard enough. But I know that isnt really the point, or necessarily a good thing. But what a thing, other frameworks have tried in this regard and in my view failed. However Laravel succeeds, up to a point, which makes me a happy camper. Chicken dinner !
Love to see this. And thank you for the support. I've always said that Laravel has specific opinions with incredible flexibility. So, you can do everything you need with the first-party packages and starter kits, or you can grab anything else that the rich ecosystem offers. I too have switched from a lot of JS with Inertia to just Livewire and loving it.
The issue, I believe, is not integrating directly with React Frontend libraries like React, Vue, Svelte etc. With RSC, I believe they should already be working on that, it would be like Laravel & Inertia, but now with the same language.
I think react wins ecosystem if you want to create backend frontend and react native mobile app and share ts models, buisness logic and other stuff. But laravel wins if web is without mobile app. But to be honest if you say app can be pure native then backend can be also much more performant tech like golang, java/kotlin, .net.
All ecosystems has its benefits and problems, In my years of experience after working in large enterprise codebases using JavaScript on the backend, I now prefer to use Golang personally after the countless headaches with JS and I also love the laravel ecosystem as well based on the fact that everything is setup just focus on the business logic and ship ur product it’s nice.
The basic problem is I don’t want PHP in my life 😅 it’s not only the language, but its execution model, it’s a nightmare to scale and that’s it. I can run 50x more requests with the same hardware with Node, probably 100x with Deno. And when I need raw power I use Go. Sorry but the problem with laravel is PHP..
I think that's an outdated take in all honesty. PHP is faster than ever and plenty of businesses are running PHP at scale for millions of requests per minute (Fathom Analytics is one of them). Sure, if you're taking on the Amazon's and Netflix's of the world, you'll probably have a specific reason to use something else. But with things like Laravel Octane, FrankenPHP, etc. scale is the last concern with PHP, especially hosting on AWS.
Well, I had to look it up since I hadn’t heard of it. But if it helps you build apps faster, I’m all for it. That being said, it seems like a slimmer alternative to Laravel and might not be as feature rich.
I think one of the best thinks about modular library over battery included frameworks is that you can use it if its better / easier For example many fols in Laravel use react as fronend and tailwind as css And if react or tailwind were created as part of a larger framework, we would have to fork or create your own
That’s fair. I think the next best step then is to take React or NextJS and have opinions about what pieces work best. Maybe Vercel will start acquiring Drizzle or something like that. Could be a good move. 👀
Thanks for the video solidified some of my thoughts regarding learning a batteries included framework. I am learning Ruby on rails instead of laravel for my projects since I don't like php $ syntax which is not a bad thing just my opinion but I wanted to know will I be missing out on something or does laravel do something better than Ruby on rails. If yes I would switch
Use whatever works for you! I played around with Rails, Phoenix, and Laravel before making the switch from the JS world and PHP syntax made the most sense. As long as you like building and learning in it, we are all on the same team. ☺️
I came from the JS ecosystem with React and NestJS, then PHP since my current company uses it, but learning Ruby and Rails since Laravel took inspiration from it. I just want to ship, and if RoR helps me do it faster, then it’s a win for me.
I think the great thing about laravel is it's driver approach. I don't think the "one solution" thing is true for laravel, as it gives you choices as well For example, to change the database you just need to update the driver. The ORM is so great you probably don't need to rewrite all your database queries. Whereas in javascript ecosystem, if you switch from say mysql to sqlite package, the syntax of function calls and queries changes and now you have to rewrite it all. Same with Auth. Laravel has inbuilt auth, plus options for Sanctum and Passport if you want to go with that. Same with frontend. It has blade but then you also have inertia if you want to replace the frontend. This is different from JavaScript frameworks where most are heavily focused on the frontend.
I agree with this. I think there's a difference between options that are still owned and maintained by the core team vs. options that are plug and play form different sources. :)
A big issue with all that modularity for the JS ecosystem is that it is also a programming language that has one of the largest influx of new developers. Too many choices at such an early stage in your career is not necessarily a good thing. It is great for veterans though
You're right. Which is why I recommend learning vanilla JavaScript for new developers. It's helpful to know why you need a solution before learning the solution.
"He probably doesn't know" those are words you will either say or hear often when it comes to Theo talking about stuff other than React & Nextjs. He needs to improve his learning capabilities before he starts talking about stuff he knows very little about.
Fair statement, but in full transparency, there's a lot about how Livewire works that many people (even in the Laravel community) don't truly know. But I like playing a small part in helping shrink that number. :)
@@joshcirre Yeah, but in a similar vein as the Auth, it feels like his takes are incredibly under-researched. Like, Auth doesn't _require_ you to do it the Laravel way. His whole point there was that he prefers the choice in JS. Laravel doesn't limit that choice, it just gives you a good initial default. I've built tones of non-default auths. Sometimes for good reasons! But the fact that if I don't want to have to think about it, it's just there. That's just a perk.
It's about time PHP gets shown as not the PHP from 10 years ago and it not being bad anymore. Laravel has had a huge impact on that by keeping people using PHP over these years. I have dabbled with Node for a while and found myself missing what laravel did for me every step down the path and I never had to give a thought about before. Dotnet, ruby on rails have a ton of batteries but Laravel makes them look bad by making things as easy as it does 😂
I think you’ve nailed it. It’s not that the Node ecosystem doesn’t have great solutions. They usually do, but you have to give some thought that might not be needed when just starting out.
Loved your reaction, it was very balanced. Most of the comments however seems to be from people who dont understand the nuances like you explained and Theo has. This is what annoys me with the tribe mentalities in the developer ecosystem in general. Its not a Laravel vs JavaScript guys!
@@joshcirre I agree. It has very reasonable defaults that cover almost any app scenario you'd imagine, but still you do not have to conform to those opinions and decisions. Laravel is very much popular because of those opinions.
I don't have that much experience with NestJS but I put it into a similar boat with Sails or even Adonis. I think if you're wanting to target the new devs, indie devs, and bootstrapped and VC backed founders who are currently using NextJS or Remix (Nuxt/Sveltekit, etc.), having a MVC-first framework does not seem to be the right move. Not to say it's not incredible, but there's a reason why it hasn't gained traction in that world.
Like I said in the video, I think we agree about a lot. And the modularity vs. cohesiveness of one maintained ecosystem could come down to difference in how someone's brain works when it comes to building things. That being said, Laravel loves JS / React (or even NextJS and Laravel as an API), so no competition there. :)
I have! I think it falls into the same reasoning that AdonisJS hasn't taken off in the way many think it should like Laravel/Rails/Phoenix. It leans too heavily into MVC-type architecture which most people looking for more of a batteries included type of framework might not like. There's not many people writing Remix or NextJS apps, (for example), in a MVC way.
Yep. 10:40 in the video. I think looking and feeling like standard Laravel or Rails might be a detriment to the Adonis crew. JS is different so it doesn’t need to look the same as Rails or Laravel.
I'm interested in learning more. Maybe we can do it on a stream sometime? I like what Sails is doing, and I'm curious what more Sails is doing to separate from traditional MVC structure? I.e. server actions, etc.
@@joshcirreyeah sure thing I’ll be happy to come on a stream anytime. Sails invented a couple of stuff like Node machines, RTTC, and my favorite, first party WebSocket support(We’ve had this from day one)
Almost every business i have worked for costing billions of dollars is striving towards minimizing 3rd party dependencies as much as possible. And now JS community is trying to sell me an idea that not only should i pay for such basic functionality like authentication and mail sending, i also should bring into my codebase a dozen 3rd party SaaS dependencies right from the start of my project... What?! How long does it take to make a reasonably good enough auth in Rails? Days? A week? Maybe a couple of weeks? Are you really trying to sell me the fact that it is an inferior alternative to 3rd party SaaS?! It's looks like Theo is trying to say that thing he likes about React - are the ultimate pros, when in fact they aren't. Choosing every little peace before even starting - no, thank you, i would rather take instruments i already familiar with. Choosing new project layout for every project - no thank you. Etc., etc.... We are engineers, not some freaking artists... We don't need to invent "some new ways to make things" every time we start a new project. That's not how it should work.
Packages easier to replace? Has he heard anything about interface binding, adapters and so on? Maybe not, classic functional React fanboy. I am swapping packages like nothing with abstraction layers. And yes, having SSR with react and frameworks like Remix is one, building a real backend should not be an option in the JS environment. (Using Remix myself). And to sum up, people who pay 10 external services from mailing, queues, authentication, databases and so on, yeah they can glue all of them together in an environment which was not meant for those things because they don’t have them implemented and they don’t user their own infrastructure and to host them and maintain them. But the cost goes up, external dependencies too.
for me coding is to make money to feed my unborn child and future wife. I do not care about the tech. It must produce and produce fast stuff that have value for somebody who want to pay for that. that's all. ideally as a freelancer or as a saas producer or product ( lifetime deal ) producer. AFTER and only AFTER 1 or 2 millions of USD in the bank and free from the shackle of petty capitalism I will play around with thousand of piece of JS stuff. Let's not forget that IT might not pay as well like that forever. With the latest AI layoff ( or the law on RandD I do not know layoff (or interest rate Layoff ) ) IT money and salary is not eternal it's very possible that one day that things pay like a normal job and it's still hard to do. In that situation we will become the real next blue colar. When you factor in all the time to search new framework learn new stuff... the salary is not that high.
In my opinion, using Laravel feels like having all the amenities of a luxury prison, whereas using JavaScript is like crafting your own solutions in a world of freedom.
Theo just wants to rant IMO.... People fighting over web framework in 2024? Ridiculous.... If C web framework is a thing.... I don't give a f.... I'll try it out. Laravel always ❤
At the end of the day, the customer does not care about your stack but about the product you build for them. I'd rather outsource opionions of auth, security, database abstractions and migrations to battle-tested frameworks and focus on the crafting the business logic for my clients. Laravel shines in being able to take the best of both worlds and shipping with a backwards compatibility promise that gives me time to upgrade to the latest and greatest.
Love it.
Exactly. Keep building beautiful things and find what makes you do that more.
The fact that people in JS "ecosystem" are paying for SaaS starter kits shows that there is an interest for option to just start building right away without having to setup/integrate 10 packages.
then why are they not using adonis lol
I think the reason is Adonis has opinions that fit with the Laravel / MVC mindset and not JS ecosystem mindset. If Adonis used TRPC, server actions, etc. And had opinions for how it did mailing, notifications, etc. Then the JS community would be all for it.
I think it's coming. And if people still build amazing things until that happens, then the web would be a better place.
@@devagr Adonis is exactly like Laravel but written in JS, it is a batteries included BACKEND framework, and we end it there, at the backend, it doesn't integrate any front-end frameworks like react or vue or anything, they render html on the server, this is why the framework doesn't take off, why use that when there is already Laravel or Rails and the trust Laravel and Rails have is huge compared to that.
@@devagr The only true alternative to laravel for js would be something like RedwoodJS imo, a full frontend to backend batteries included framework. But people are still buying Next.js SaaS starter kits over that, which again, makes me believe it's more about trust and marketing then anything else. Next.js has a huge reputation, it's what the big guys use, Redwood doesn't. Also there are a lot of stupid people believeing that they need to do what big companies do otherwise they will never grow, not realising that 99.99% of theyr projects will not pass 100$ MRR
You will always find someone to pay for code / infra templates.
Please understand that a large part of the JavaScript and React.js community doesn't want to have this Theo dude speak for us! This guy changed his recommended tech every 3 weeks it seems, already Remix branding going away now ut will be all rolled into the react router I think...
drama drama. Theo can say whatever he wants. If you don't like it, start your own youtube channel and become as successful!!
Yeah for me personally I knew it wasn’t worth taking Theo’s advice seriously when he said “feeling smart” was important to him. I’d rather be dumb but actually get stuff done tbh
When he said that he’s replacing Prisma with drizzle. This is part of the problem. Stuff is changing in a meaningless way. Theo is part of the problem
@@aeronwolfe7072 only new devs listen to him and end up refactoring every 2 weeks and never get anything done. Success is not the same as good advice
Theo is one of the youtubers I hit "Don't recommend this channel" and my youtube browsing experience immediately improved. I kind of forgot about him until I saw this video's thumbnail tbh. I don't hate him, but he's (for lack of a better term) kind of bitchy at times. Gets mad on Twitter frequently, rages against things he disagrees with (Github copilot workspace video for instance), seems to lack perspective outside of web but isn't aware of that.
Maybe this is an ironic thing to see after I called him bitchy; but hes kind of just a toxic prescence in the community imo.
Laravel inertia react is all i need
Great stack.
Can I get an amen!!
@@helloitsjury AMEN!
Amen to that!
Theo thinks PHP frameworks like Laravel aren’t modular or flexible yet we have the PHP-FIG which defines interfaces so we can swap in different packages. I don’t see JS frameworks having any advantages over Laravel. He also didn’t mention the benefit of all Laravel apps having the same folder structure and naming conventions which makes it easier to on board into a new codebase.
I would say ease of deployment (right now) is probably where JS ecosystem wins out. But great point regarding folder / naming conventions.
I think Laravel 11 (slim file structure) helps make this more appealing for people coming from bare bone React frameworks.
@@joshcirre Really surprised to hear you say JS is easier to deploy. Are you thinking of things like Vercel? For Laravel we have Forge. In the old days LAMP hosting was prevalent and you just had to upload your files. Or do you mean JS is easier since it is natively supported by services like AWS Lambda and Cloudflare?
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 *🗣️ Laravel is getting a lot of attention recently, with videos and discussions around its strengths.*
00:23 *⌛ The video explores why there isn't a JavaScript equivalent to Laravel, an all-in-one web framework like Rails.*
00:52 *💻 The goal is not to criticize specific frameworks, but to understand why an all-in-one JS framework hasn't emerged.*
01:35 *👨💻 Laravel is praised for its comprehensive ecosystem, including features like mail servers, notifications, and live updates.*
02:27 *⚡ Laravel's Livewire allows dynamic front-end UI updates without leaving PHP, powered by the server-side code.*
03:27 *🧩 Having an all-in-one framework with solutions for various problems is valuable and appealing.*
04:22 *🕸️ The alternatives to Rails back then, like the MEAN stack, were modular but often incompatible or lacking.*
05:31 *🔄 Laravel and Rails have garnered trust and stability over time, offering solutions for different application needs.*
06:52 *🚀 The JavaScript world allows for more modularity with less pain, which is the thesis of the video.*
07:19 *🔍 The video explores several attempts at all-in-one JS frameworks, like Blitz, Adonis, and Redwood, which haven't gained widespread adoption.*
21:20 *🤷♂️ Having many options in JavaScript may feel overwhelming at first, but it's hard to pick a wrong solution if it's recommended online and recent.*
21:49 *⚛️ JavaScript's composability and flexibility make the desire for all-in-one frameworks less necessary.*
22:18 *⏭️ While new approaches like Next.js server components emerge, create-t3-app still recommends the proven client-side rendering approach used for projects like Ping.*
22:47 *🚀 The ability for startups to form around specific pieces in the JavaScript ecosystem is not a failure but a strength.*
23:26 *🔍 The discussion is not about React vs Laravel, but about whether developers need opinionated, first-party packages for core services like queues and databases.*
24:23 *🧩 JavaScript allows teams to pick and choose solutions tailored to their application's specific needs.*
24:51 *🔐 Authentication is an example where a dedicated service or package can excel by handling complexities like compliance and integration.*
25:47 *🔄 JavaScript fosters an ecosystem where startups, services, and open-source alternatives coexist and evolve.*
26:30 *🌳 The ability to ship and stick with older versions of JavaScript frameworks is a strength, not a negative.*
26:58 *👑 The flexibility and vibrant ecosystem in JavaScript are unrivaled strengths, not weaknesses as perceived by other communities.*
Made with HARPA AI
The issue with Theo is that he is a fanboy and the real world is far from his world. Companies do not glue different packages. they use the stuff that have built-in stuff like laravel or angular!
I think, to be fair to Theo, his world is the YC/Bootstrapped small teams who are building with as close to bleeding edge (bleed responsibly) tech as possible. I think those companies, like his, ARE gluing different things together.
But, like I said, as long as you're shipping awesome things. Do what works for you. But there is a benefit to knowing that a framework owns every piece you're using. People hate on NextJS/Vercel for trying to do this with databases, etc. but I am all for it.
One more point..
In collaboration-based projects, in real life teams, there is no room for picking and choosing, for desires to be a snowflake, and trying to have unreachable control on every small aspect of the project, this seems selfish to say the least, and so: self centered.
Just look at the sheer power and unique coordination and harmony that a small team of laravel developers has, finishing each other's.. lines😊
They will work in perfect synergy putting projects first and personal preferences last, proving that consistency and uniformity benefits team communication while making future maintainability efforts much more easier.
Great point.
If you hire a Laravel developer, you know that they generally know how to touch every point of the app. Hiring a React dev, they might not have worked in something like NextJS or used Drizzle or what have you. Obviously easy things for a mid-senior dev to learn, but still important to consider.
Hey Josh, I think the missing link with JS and Laravel is a Breeze option that allows authentication for mobile apps. Right now I think everyone is having to reinvent the wheel every time for auth for all projects except same-domain. Someone started a breeze JWT project but its abandoned.
I agree with that. I think an additional benefit (like I mentioned) is that when it's maintained and "owned" by the framework authors it only makes things easier.
The external projects are great that are solving this, but Auth.js is still too disconnected from the frameworks it associates with. I'm betting on Astro for this. 👀
@@joshcirre What's your go-to solution for this for now?
The issue I always have with choice is that I tend to always question my choice... In my case, choice is detrimental. I should be more worried about business logic, but I'm more worried about picking tech debt.
And I think it’s okay if you do like choosing. For me, I’m like you. I just want to know I’m doing something that’s supported, has a ton of info and docs for, and works with the rest of my app. I get that with Laravel.
@@joshcirre Any good architect must do it, forget anything super shiny and new, look for battle-tested tool/libs and check if the community still alive and well.
I have not heard any mention of Conduit which touts itself as a "Batteries-included backend that works with any stack." It includes Authentication, Chat, Database, Email, Forms, Push Notifications,
Routes, SMS, 2FA, Storage...etc. It's all JavaScript and it just works.
I have not heard of it so thank you for bringing it up. I always like to try to learn tools like this to make sure I understand as many facets of the ecosystem as possible.
Generally, I think (like mentioned in the video), long term stability and being around long enough to prove usefulness is bigger than most people think. Just look at Gatsby.
@@joshcirre Agreed. Gatsby never really stood out as a viable option to me unless I wanted an optimized static site, and who builds static sites anymore.
Laravel + Inertia + Vue! This combo has been amazing for my projects the last year. Loving it!
That's awesome. If I wasn't in Livewire land, I would probably use that stack. 😏
I'm very new to Laravel - is it possible to integrate JS libraries (like barba.js, GSAP) with the VILT stack?
Good video. I like the positive vibe style of response to someone who disagrees. Side note, I think you might have sample rate/sync related clicks sneaking into your audio.
I can confirm that laravel is haven.
This is like comparing a pre-made PC by a professional, where you know everything will work well together and that got your back if anything goes wrong, even though you don't really know what goes on under the hood, or trying to build your own with parts from different sources. It's more customisable and you can change any part independently but chances are you'll encounter issues and then you're pretty much on your own. In the end it depends what you value most..
What happened to Symphony? I haven't been in the php ecosystem for almost a decade. Loved the ruby on rails module generation approach. NestJS is the closest I've used in the JS ecosystem.
I haven't actually used Symphony but I know that it is a master of it's craft. A lot of Laravel's packages depend on or are inspired by Symphony.
@@joshcirre You deffo should try it, coming from Laravel it's easy enough to learn, but I find that I tend to like it even more. It's kinda like the middle ground between Django and Laravel
For me, the appeal for the JS ecosystem was and is always: Code sharing between the backend and the frontend. While also not having to go outside the scope to add interactivity to the website / web app.
Good point. That's why I love Laravel Livewire / Volt. You get the same code in the same file, but you have this colocation of back-end and front-end logic.
Similarly, code sharing between web and native frontends. Does Laravel have something like Expo?
code sharing is over-rated and causes more problems than it fixes. In small projects, its fine, but in larger long running projects it causes massive headaches.
There is a reason MVC architecture became popular, and on a larger perspective the separation of domain, business, persistence and presentation layers.
@@darylphuah Just having the ability to share the interfaces/types without having to convert between languages is a huge benefit. But yeah, maybe for enterprise it's different. The video's topic was not about enterprise-sized projects, though.
@@darylphuah Agreed.
The language might be the same, but the domain problems are completely different.
Code sharing _seems_ good, but that's because people think JS on the frontend and JS on the backend are the same skillsets
Theo has some interesting things to say, often.
Thanks for your commentary, it is fantasico.
I'm very late to Laravel, v10 was when I started using it seriously but man, glad I did. I can, up to a point now, not write any JS if I try hard enough. But I know that isnt really the point, or necessarily a good thing. But what a thing, other frameworks have tried in this regard and in my view failed. However Laravel succeeds, up to a point, which makes me a happy camper. Chicken dinner !
Love to see this.
And thank you for the support. I've always said that Laravel has specific opinions with incredible flexibility. So, you can do everything you need with the first-party packages and starter kits, or you can grab anything else that the rich ecosystem offers.
I too have switched from a lot of JS with Inertia to just Livewire and loving it.
Oh no not theo.
Be cool. We agree on a lot, especially in this video. :)
Adonis is the laravel for js ... it just gets zero love from the hype masters.
Just like I said in the video, I think it’s great.
The issue, I believe, is not integrating directly with React Frontend libraries like React, Vue, Svelte etc. With RSC, I believe they should already be working on that, it would be like Laravel & Inertia, but now with the same language.
Adonis does have inertia as well as an extension called Radonis.. or rather a wrapper it seems like to use react with adonis
@@lassestube oh really, thats interesting. JS lovers have all they need then.
I think react wins ecosystem if you want to create backend frontend and react native mobile app and share ts models, buisness logic and other stuff. But laravel wins if web is without mobile app. But to be honest if you say app can be pure native then backend can be also much more performant tech like golang, java/kotlin, .net.
Exactly. You can pick the tools you need for the job. :)
All ecosystems has its benefits and problems, In my years of experience after working in large enterprise codebases using JavaScript on the backend, I now prefer to use Golang personally after the countless headaches with JS and I also love the laravel ecosystem as well based on the fact that everything is setup just focus on the business logic and ship ur product it’s nice.
Exactly. Just ship things and make fun things on the web. :)
The basic problem is I don’t want PHP in my life 😅 it’s not only the language, but its execution model, it’s a nightmare to scale and that’s it. I can run 50x more requests with the same hardware with Node, probably 100x with Deno. And when I need raw power I use Go. Sorry but the problem with laravel is PHP..
I think that's an outdated take in all honesty.
PHP is faster than ever and plenty of businesses are running PHP at scale for millions of requests per minute (Fathom Analytics is one of them). Sure, if you're taking on the Amazon's and Netflix's of the world, you'll probably have a specific reason to use something else.
But with things like Laravel Octane, FrankenPHP, etc. scale is the last concern with PHP, especially hosting on AWS.
What about trongate? How is it compared to laravel from position of general user?
Well, I had to look it up since I hadn’t heard of it. But if it helps you build apps faster, I’m all for it. That being said, it seems like a slimmer alternative to Laravel and might not be as feature rich.
Seeing Trongate mentioned now is wild. Congrats to DC 🫡
I think one of the best thinks about modular library over battery included frameworks is that you can use it if its better / easier
For example many fols in Laravel use react as fronend and tailwind as css
And if react or tailwind were created as part of a larger framework, we would have to fork or create your own
That’s fair. I think the next best step then is to take React or NextJS and have opinions about what pieces work best. Maybe Vercel will start acquiring Drizzle or something like that. Could be a good move. 👀
Hey josh please provide the link of the podcast of Taylor adam and matt
Hi there! It’s in the description:
tomorrow.fm/93
React, Laravel, Adonis, Next, HTMX, Solid... I love em all lol
Samesies.
I only love my wife
@@Me-vc4sfyou don't love your parents? You don't love God!?
@@yyydollars8456 I'm an orphan and atheist
you love burnout too
Thanks for the video solidified some of my thoughts regarding learning a batteries included framework. I am learning Ruby on rails instead of laravel for my projects since I don't like php $ syntax which is not a bad thing just my opinion but I wanted to know will I be missing out on something or does laravel do something better than Ruby on rails. If yes I would switch
Use whatever works for you! I played around with Rails, Phoenix, and Laravel before making the switch from the JS world and PHP syntax made the most sense.
As long as you like building and learning in it, we are all on the same team. ☺️
I came from the JS ecosystem with React and NestJS, then PHP since my current company uses it, but learning Ruby and Rails since Laravel took inspiration from it.
I just want to ship, and if RoR helps me do it faster, then it’s a win for me.
I think the great thing about laravel is it's driver approach.
I don't think the "one solution" thing is true for laravel, as it gives you choices as well
For example, to change the database you just need to update the driver. The ORM is so great you probably don't need to rewrite all your database queries.
Whereas in javascript ecosystem, if you switch from say mysql to sqlite package, the syntax of function calls and queries changes and now you have to rewrite it all.
Same with Auth. Laravel has inbuilt auth, plus options for Sanctum and Passport if you want to go with that.
Same with frontend. It has blade but then you also have inertia if you want to replace the frontend.
This is different from JavaScript frameworks where most are heavily focused on the frontend.
I agree with this. I think there's a difference between options that are still owned and maintained by the core team vs. options that are plug and play form different sources. :)
A big issue with all that modularity for the JS ecosystem is that it is also a programming language that has one of the largest influx of new developers. Too many choices at such an early stage in your career is not necessarily a good thing. It is great for veterans though
You're right. Which is why I recommend learning vanilla JavaScript for new developers. It's helpful to know why you need a solution before learning the solution.
Vue + Laravel is now my stack
Love it. Keep building beautiful things.
"He probably doesn't know" those are words you will either say or hear often when it comes to Theo talking about stuff other than React & Nextjs. He needs to improve his learning capabilities before he starts talking about stuff he knows very little about.
Fair statement, but in full transparency, there's a lot about how Livewire works that many people (even in the Laravel community) don't truly know. But I like playing a small part in helping shrink that number. :)
@@joshcirre Yeah, but in a similar vein as the Auth, it feels like his takes are incredibly under-researched.
Like, Auth doesn't _require_ you to do it the Laravel way. His whole point there was that he prefers the choice in JS.
Laravel doesn't limit that choice, it just gives you a good initial default.
I've built tones of non-default auths. Sometimes for good reasons!
But the fact that if I don't want to have to think about it, it's just there. That's just a perk.
It's about time PHP gets shown as not the PHP from 10 years ago and it not being bad anymore.
Laravel has had a huge impact on that by keeping people using PHP over these years.
I have dabbled with Node for a while and found myself missing what laravel did for me every step down the path and I never had to give a thought about before.
Dotnet, ruby on rails have a ton of batteries but Laravel makes them look bad by making things as easy as it does 😂
I think you’ve nailed it. It’s not that the Node ecosystem doesn’t have great solutions. They usually do, but you have to give some thought that might not be needed when just starting out.
Loved your reaction, it was very balanced. Most of the comments however seems to be from people who dont understand the nuances like you explained and Theo has. This is what annoys me with the tribe mentalities in the developer ecosystem in general. Its not a Laravel vs JavaScript guys!
We are all one team when it comes down to it. A team of building useful things for people and solving problems. :)
IMHO, Laravel ecosystem is pure joy compared to anything in JS ecosystem. There you go. 💪
I think it's because of the opinions and decisions made. ☺️
@@joshcirre I agree. It has very reasonable defaults that cover almost any app scenario you'd imagine, but still you do not have to conform to those opinions and decisions. Laravel is very much popular because of those opinions.
Odd that none mentioned nest JS 😁
I don't have that much experience with NestJS but I put it into a similar boat with Sails or even Adonis. I think if you're wanting to target the new devs, indie devs, and bootstrapped and VC backed founders who are currently using NextJS or Remix (Nuxt/Sveltekit, etc.), having a MVC-first framework does not seem to be the right move.
Not to say it's not incredible, but there's a reason why it hasn't gained traction in that world.
Theo is baised for him JS/React is superior cause he gets sponsor from Vercel
Like I said in the video, I think we agree about a lot. And the modularity vs. cohesiveness of one maintained ecosystem could come down to difference in how someone's brain works when it comes to building things.
That being said, Laravel loves JS / React (or even NextJS and Laravel as an API), so no competition there. :)
Haven't you guys heard of NEST JS?
I have! I think it falls into the same reasoning that AdonisJS hasn't taken off in the way many think it should like Laravel/Rails/Phoenix. It leans too heavily into MVC-type architecture which most people looking for more of a batteries included type of framework might not like.
There's not many people writing Remix or NextJS apps, (for example), in a MVC way.
It’s honestly this entire idea of way too many options and the best option changing every month that made me switch to laravel 😂
Glad to have you in the Laravel crew. :)
Livewire is such a massive blunder
Interesting. Why do you think so? Is it because it obscures away some of the code you'd rather write by hand?
Appwrite + Flutter is all I need
Great! Now go and build awesome things. :)
but isn't adonisjs literally created like laravel 5?
Yep. 10:40 in the video.
I think looking and feeling like standard Laravel or Rails might be a detriment to the Adonis crew. JS is different so it doesn’t need to look the same as Rails or Laravel.
I watched a Laravel video and learned a new JS framework "Wasp" let's gooooo ahah
Glad I could help bring awareness. :)
We are all in this together.
Sails is the Laravel/Rails of JS
I'm interested in learning more. Maybe we can do it on a stream sometime? I like what Sails is doing, and I'm curious what more Sails is doing to separate from traditional MVC structure? I.e. server actions, etc.
@@joshcirreyeah sure thing I’ll be happy to come on a stream anytime. Sails invented a couple of stuff like Node machines, RTTC, and my favorite, first party WebSocket support(We’ve had this from day one)
Almost every business i have worked for costing billions of dollars is striving towards minimizing 3rd party dependencies as much as possible.
And now JS community is trying to sell me an idea that not only should i pay for such basic functionality like authentication and mail sending, i also should bring into my codebase a dozen 3rd party SaaS dependencies right from the start of my project... What?!
How long does it take to make a reasonably good enough auth in Rails? Days? A week? Maybe a couple of weeks?
Are you really trying to sell me the fact that it is an inferior alternative to 3rd party SaaS?!
It's looks like Theo is trying to say that thing he likes about React - are the ultimate pros, when in fact they aren't.
Choosing every little peace before even starting - no, thank you, i would rather take instruments i already familiar with.
Choosing new project layout for every project - no thank you.
Etc., etc....
We are engineers, not some freaking artists... We don't need to invent "some new ways to make things" every time we start a new project. That's not how it should work.
Perhaps this will educate that kid called theo.
Theo is a friend. Mutual respect. ☺️
@@joshcirre Of course; nothing personal. But most of his takes deserve an L.
Best title of them all.
Packages easier to replace? Has he heard anything about interface binding, adapters and so on? Maybe not, classic functional React fanboy. I am swapping packages like nothing with abstraction layers. And yes, having SSR with react and frameworks like Remix is one, building a real backend should not be an option in the JS environment. (Using Remix myself). And to sum up, people who pay 10 external services from mailing, queues, authentication, databases and so on, yeah they can glue all of them together in an environment which was not meant for those things because they don’t have them implemented and they don’t user their own infrastructure and to host them and maintain them. But the cost goes up, external dependencies too.
AdonisJs is the Laravel for JS. Quite literally lol
I talk about it. :) I think it has a lot of potential, especially with the shift to server actions.
If I don't want to use Js Ecosystem, I would choose Spring Boot over Laravel. the reason is simple, Spring Boot is really mature and stable
for me coding is to make money to feed my unborn child and future wife. I do not care about the tech. It must produce and produce fast stuff that have value for somebody who want to pay for that. that's all. ideally as a freelancer or as a saas producer or product ( lifetime deal ) producer. AFTER and only AFTER 1 or 2 millions of USD in the bank and free from the shackle of petty capitalism I will play around with thousand of piece of JS stuff. Let's not forget that IT might not pay as well like that forever. With the latest AI layoff ( or the law on RandD I do not know layoff (or interest rate Layoff ) ) IT money and salary is not eternal it's very possible that one day that things pay like a normal job and it's still hard to do. In that situation we will become the real next blue colar. When you factor in all the time to search new framework learn new stuff... the salary is not that high.
I want to have a life too.
In my opinion, using Laravel feels like having all the amenities of a luxury prison, whereas using JavaScript is like crafting your own solutions in a world of freedom.
Interesting take. I think a lot of people see guidelines, opinions, and even "rules" as more freeing than that. But to each their own. :)
yeah, more modern Laravel
Love modern Laravel. We are far from the days of having to separate our app into specific islands.
I hate Theo. Just a lambda JS fanboy. No reason to trust this guy.
I think we can learn from everyone and, as we saw in this video, we don't disagree on that much. :)
Theo just wants to rant IMO.... People fighting over web framework in 2024? Ridiculous.... If C web framework is a thing.... I don't give a f.... I'll try it out.
Laravel always ❤
Laravel always.
And I don’t think it’s a fight. Let’s team up and make awesome things together. 😁
I stop using laravel
As long as you're building things it doesn't matter what you use. :)