Dune: Part 2 | Full Discussion and Analysis
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2024
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Tom van der Linden / tom_lsoo
Thomas Flight / thomasflight
About this episode:
Thomas Flight and Tom van der Linden discuss Denis Villeneuve's Dune: Part Two.
0:00 Spoiler Warning
0:39 A Message to Our Listeners
5:12 Dune Part Two Discussion - Розваги
There's something amazing about the completely unsubtle "if you drink this you will die" being said twice, and resulting in massive personality shift both times.
It's like a double fake, because we "know" narratively they aren't going to die. But then you realize the metaphoric layer.
And the final duel has the same theme. Paul ends up in the same position Gurney had him when he says they join in death. And Paul gets stabbed where he sees Jamis stab him too. Once again Paul must die for the Kwisatz Haderach to rise.
They both got shown they had Harkonen blood lines and it awakened the lust for power in them both
Guys, you should not confound tragedy with cynicism. Paul has essentially a tragic story. He sees the future, but very imperfectly, he is not really sure if this can or cannot be avoided .But then the Empire strikes back, and he understands clearly that the Empire is going to destroy the Freeman the planet and himself, unless he takes the water of life; only after that, he can see perfectly the future, and only then he sees that this will lead to the universal jihad, but at that point, his destiny is written at the same time that he finally sees the future, but he cannot change it. And that’s tragic, and this is the thread that is developed in the following books. But of course, no one can see the future, and this is just a literary device just as the classical tragedies.
25:23 I'd say the greatest conflict of the story is Paul vs his destiny (his "terrible purpose" as it's called in the book) which he is fighting the whole time. In this sense, Paul is defeated at the end of Part 2, which is depicted in his delivery of his last line when he tells Stilgar to "Lead them to Paradise." and the great sadness in it.
Love the podcast and sad to hear it's officially over. I really hope to see these two working together again in the future... Looking back, I'm kicking myself for not supporting financially. You don't know what you've got until it's gone!
While watching Dune, I can't stop thinking how much it reminded me of Attack on Titan. Both stories really made me question about war and our human belief of freewill. We all think we make our own choices, yet we're impacted not just by our own past, but the heritage/history of our people.
That's exactly what i thought! Eren yeager is Paul atreides of japan.
I get where you are coming from but there's a major difference in their characters regarding the overall fanaticism around them but considering the overarching themes, can't help but think that Isayama definitely took some influence from Paul for his own protagonist
Thank you guys for Dune this! The podcast was genuinely my favorite and look forward to more of your individual projects. Much love 🖤
I agree with your interpretation of Chani at the end. Her departure very much reminded me of "the ones who walk away from Omelas" - she is willing to allow Paul's project to continue on its trajectory, but refuses to be a part of this project. And she sees that the only way to do that is to leave.
That's not what happens in the book, and Chani is a pretty major character in Dune Messiah. So I don't think she left.
@@SigmaQuotesForRealSigmas yeah it's hard to say exactly how Villeneuve plans to make the whole Chani/Irulan plot happen for Messiah. But she did leave at least temporarily at the end of the second movie. Also I don't really think Chani was a major character in the book at all - she just existed to be a plot point for Irulan's schemes and to give birth to Leto II and Ghanima
I also think one aspect about the film gets overlooked and that is how Paul’s visions actually play out in the story. In Dune: Part One you see the Arrakeen battle play out in Paul’s vision when he is in the tent, in the vision you see him open his visor and you can clearly see it’s him.
Cut to Dune: Part Two and you see Chani playing this scene out at the end instead of Paul. There are actually numerous scenes that do this switch, but the big one is when Chani gets burned by the atomic explosion.
If you follow the books, what happens towards the end when Arrakeen is attacked by the Stone Burner? I won’t ruin it for those that haven’t read the books but if you know… you know.
I know what you’re referring to and yes. DV doesn’t spell everything out for you like Nolan does and I agree the subtle ways Paul’s visions are different than their eventual outcomes is one of the most important parts of the film but it’s laid out very subtly almost tricking the audience along with Paul.
Re the prophecies being real or artificial: there's an appendix in the novel that explores the motives of the Bene Gesserit. It concludes that the BG were, including their breeding program, operating under the influence of forces that they were unaware of. I take this to mean that Frank Herbert implies that the human race itself has a collective unconscious that is pushing towards the goal of the Kwisatz Haderach (or something like it) and that the prophecies too might have a similarly both artificial and "genuine" nature. BG would then just have been a tool of the unconscious drives. Of course, we could still speculate as to what extent BG interference shaped the result, or if they merely accelerated something that would have happened anyway.
This for me is the upmost highest quality film podcast/discussion panel out there so I’m so sad to hear it’s going away but I did just want to say your hard work, and insights did not go unnoticed. Head and shoulders above a lot of other movie discussion programs so hats off to you two!
39:00 yes Chani’s line about seeing the spice in the air when the sun is low was the opening line of Part One. Paul visibly reacts when she says it, implying he had heard it in his dreams.
What a shame that the podcast is over, I'm sure they didn't gathered enough listeners to justify doing it
There was always something odd going on with the algorithm for this podcast. I've been subbed to both their main channels for years yet never got recommended any of the podcast videos, and barely ever got recommended the new podcasts even after i subscribed.
@@restitvtororbis5330 I think clips and better miniatures would've probably helped, but yeah considering the views they have on both of their main channels I don't get how nobody is watching this
This is the first time I hear about this podcast :(
@@restitvtororbis5330same
@@manlyastronaut6984 don't mourn for it's loss. Just sub to both their channels and wait for them to bring it back 😉 they're both phenomenal
I hate goodbyes. With my age, when something that I love ends, I feel that I am also closer to the ending. I wish you both the best in your life and work. With great care, rui
Sorry to hear that podcast is ending, I hope you occasionally reviving it for films you two are really passionate about.
My wife and I have found that concert earbuds are great for IMAX. They bring the volume down without distorting the sounds, they were a godsend when we saw Oppenheimer in 70mm.
sad to hear the podcast is over. thank you for the episodes you gave us.
Thanks so much for the last podcast, I wondered where you both went but I'm grateful for one last episode, as well as your insights in past discussions.
Wonderful analysis.So glad to have discovered this channel.
It's a pity that you guys are ending the podcast, I really love it and I found it so interesting to listen to....Thank you for all the episodes and the work that you put into it. You will be missed!
58:00 This point is apparently why JRR Tolkien disliked Dune when he read it.
Sad to see you go , one of the best UA-cam podcasts around , best of luck in your future endeavors 🙏
For what it’s worth I loved listening to this podcast and will continue to until I’ve heard every episode. Thank you all for your work
i watched the movie three times now (1 in imax-my first ever imax and woah what a life changing experience), and i feel like the first time i watched it the pacing problems sort of left me confused, especially not having read the books and not knowing what to expect, but the second watch really made everything fall into place and make sense. it’s a movie that requires more watches to be fully appreciated, and it’s so grand that it does feel like watching another lotr level saga. i mean ive never been compelled to rewatch something in the theater more than twice so
My favourite movie enthusiasts talking together. Brilliant. I just cannot get enough of this movie.
Cinema of Meaning is back!! Yay
…and gone 😢
Omg I'm so excited! Ever since I saw Dune 2 the first week, I have been waiting for you guys to review it together! 😄
Very sad that you Gents have made that decision to cease these podcasts. You work so well together and love your discussions.
How have i never heard of this podcast?! This is great and i love both of you
Thanks for this discussion. I'm currently obsessed with the movies and the lore and would like to jump in in some of the themes discussed here:
To start with, you guys said something about the emotional nuance and lack of breathing room to some emotional moments, like when Paul decided to go to the south. I think that most of the emotional nuance was already established in the first movie. Therefore, I understand that in this movie it wasn't as prominent, because we can see in the first movie already (that scene with Paul and Jessica in the tent for example) how Paul struggles with what he has to become and do to guide the Fremen on the "right" path, which was extended in the second movie to the decision of going to the south or not.
Then you guys also gave the impression that you thought that Paul made a 180 degrees turn in the movie, but I don't see it like that. Up until the very end there is conflict inside him I believe. For example the scene where he speaks in front of many Fremen and their leaders. Although he seems to fully embrace his destiny, I saw it more as a performance. This is what his upbringing and the schemes around him culminated in, him becoming a leader of the Fremen. He never wanted it though (scene with his father in first movie) and still doesn't, but becomes what all the forces around him pushes him to be. Paul is just as much a slave of the prophecy as the Fremen are.
Talking about the prophecy, Tom talked about him not fully understanding the connection between the Kwizats Haderach and Lisan al Gaib. So, how I see it is that indeed, Paul really is unique and the Kwizats Haderach, however, this fact is being used by the Bene Gesserit as a means for power and control over, in this case, the Fremen through the personification of the Lisan al Gaib. These concepts are there as a point of reflection, imo, about how forces in power are able to manipulate vulnerable communities in society through propaganda. Also, I think it's only fair to contemplate about how religion is often used as justification for violence and how, specially in our own past, it has been a very efficient medium to mobilize a large group of people towards a singular goal.
Lastly, a lack of hope in the movie was mentioned, however, I see Chani as the personification of hope in this story. She's the only one able to see through Paul's performance, immune to the propaganda and adoration amongst her own people towards Paul and seen in the final scenes staying behind in Arrakis, not participating in his jihad. She's the only one acting truly in the interest of her own people, unfettered by selfish goals or outside expectations.
27:20 This, Dune is the entirety of its pieces, Paul isn’t the story of Dune. He is just one piece in a much larger puzzle that extends over thousands of years.
just discovered this podcast - sad that this is the end! but I will be checking out your back catalog! hope to see y'all when Dune Messiah comes out!
Loved this, and loooved the film. So well made.
I loved this podcast. Thank you both for all the wonderful discussions. I’m excited to continue to follow both of you in your respective endeavors
The show goes on!
Your "The Price of Ambition" is one of the best things I've ever watched here. Also, very glad to see you here!
Thank you and LSOO/Thomas/CoM for all the beauty you share with us.
@@VIK_1903 loved editing that video but always felt it was out of place on the channel. Awesome to hear someone still remembers it years later.
to add to his speculation about Paul being unsure for a moment if he can win his fight against Feuyd, in the books he doesn't actually know also. it makes reference to the place being a temporal nexus where anything can happen. so he still had to actually win and not just act out the part so your speculation is both your head canon and canon :)
45:06 I watched only Villeneuve's movies and some youtube lore videos, so I am not sure my thoughts are correct. But I understood it like this: Guided by the visions of future, Bene Gesserit planted an idea of Lisan al Gaib in the minds of fremen to make Kwisatz Haderach' journey easier. In a way, Lisan al Gaib is true - the man IS Kwisatz Haderach but also a lie - the fremen don't need Lisan al Gaib/Kwisatz Haderach to free themselves
I'm also very excited!
Upon watching both Dune films, and hearing you mention how conflict shows up differently in these films(which I totally agree with), I am getting some strong Kishotenketsu energy from this story as a whole. Kishotenketsu is an eastern plot structure more commonly used in anime that approaches story-telling in a way that changes the way the story focues on conflict. In some verisons of Kishotenketsu, there is no conflict, just a story that happens to the "protagnonist" and its more about how they respond and grow as a result of the challenges they face.
Loved Dune 2 and excited for a rewatch
your podcast was a great companion to my cooking my supper. Your analysis always felt well-focused and very sensitive. There are few such podcasts headed by a duo of commentators that discuss the movie from separate points of view, with relevant comparisons to other works, and don't just make funny faces at the camera.
Like younger Roger and Ebert.
I hope for some better conditions in the near future.
Hey tom, had je het over de imax in arena? Wil hem nog een keer zien in imax maar ben nog nooit geweest. Woon in Haarlem en arena is het dichtstbijzijnde. Is dat het waard?
Yup, you'll have to come back for a Dune Messiah in a few years 😆
Love podcast from the beginning, so sad to hear it's over. Thank you both for bringing us so much great discussions, looking forward to your collaboration again!
I agree about the difference between being able to connect with the characters of dune less compared to the characters of LOTR. I also think this matches the experience of reading the books, so in this way, both adaptations are pretty accurate.
I look forward to getting the 4K disk of Part II so I can watch both parts back-to-back...
I was never able to properly assess Part I without having seen Part II since it really is a single story.
But I'm now wondering if the same issue holds for what is to come: in my mind, Dune is (like its "Atreides" namesake in Greek myth) a multi-generational tragedy that arguably doesn't have a natural end point until at least the end of "Children of Dune" - and maybe not even until the end of "God Emperor"...
Damn why am I discovering this at its end?? Aw well, time to watch the backlog lol.
At first blush it would seem that the Fremen's belief in the Lisan al Gaib is false and comes to nothing, but it also all happens as prophesied. The prophecies are fulfilled, including that the Lisan Al Gaib would lead them to freedom. I don't think it's super clear cut.
I came across this video randomly and was about to just comment to make fun of the guy on the right’s weird outfit and the fact that you both have the same facial hair, BUT I liked your commentary and voices so I decided to subscribe.
So sad that you're ending the podcast since I just discovered this podcast a couple weeks ago, but had a feeling that might be the case since it had been months since the last episode. Also, what happened to most of the episodes on Nebula? On your first episode you guys talk about being on Nebula but first episode on Nebula is the Wind River episode which from May 18th 2023. Anyways though, sad that you two are ending this podcast but as you guys say you guys are still doing your own things which are still great. Hope to see you guys comeback for special occasions and such.
All the talk about Ba'al confused the heck out of me.
*spoilers* Duncan Idaho is the longest running character throughout the novels, so I could see him being highlighted as a hopeful figure
Good movie, but towards the end when Paul asks the Emperors daughters hand in marriage and the camera cut to Zendaya and her reaction is so....strange/funny that it kinda took me out of the scene. Another was when Paul bested the Harkonen psycho and the quick cut to Stilgar suddenly saying Lisan Al ghaib was so funny. Wonder why they would have done both scenes like that. Strange.
It's been interesting, watching people fail to understand the underlying theme of Dune so blatantly. It's an explicitly anarchist story. The book Dune is told from the perspective of Paul and Jessica, making them the protagonists of the story, but they are hardly better for their subjects than the Harkonnen were, or the emperor. In some ways, many even as the story explores, they're actually worse. They're villains too.
That's the point of the story. You should be skeptical of Messiahs, of organized power structures like religion and feudalism, and more generally of unjustified hierarchy in all its forms.
Also, am I the only person online who finds a fetus who acts as a person an incredibly idiotic idea to put in a blockbuster in a current age when conservatives are attacking basic human rights?
Right. In the book she gains the same knowledge her mother does, but I don't think she had conversations with her! She is basically a little adult when she is born.
:( why do all my favourite podcasts end
Your Imax probably isn’t broken, thats just their trick. Very loud to the point of discomfort.
Fascinating that you guys missed what constitutes the entire energy of the movie. To be fair though, it seems Villeneuve and even Herbert want to deny that -- the will to power.
Spoiler for the book: something ommitted from the movie. I strongly recommend reading the book before reading my comment.
I believe including baby Leto 1.5 could gave strengthened Feyd, Chani, Paul VERY much. Each would greatly benefit in emotion from including him. Feyd specifically could have come to Sietch Tabr and killed Leto. Chani would have an even stronger reason than Shishakli to go to war following Paul even though she didn't want him to lead. And finally Paul! Paul would have had a truly personal reason for everything, and his hate for the Harkonnens and emprie desire for vengeance would be perfectly encapsulated in losing a Leto again. It could stand in for the fact he didn't forsee Gurney's betrayal in the book, instead he could have not forseen the loss of his sonand thus thta would motivate his final shift which otherwise is a fairly weak motive in the movie.
This would affect Alia, lengthen the timeline, and require Chani and Paul to grow much closer (but their closeness would be a good thing I think). I get that Alia being born would mess up the story, but if Leto 1.5 isn't even in Messiah then I feel it was a wasted opportunity not to embed much stronger emotion into act 3 of this movie.
dune I changes cinema! 😩
Gonna miss these chats 😢
Feyd fate?
Dune doom?
Hayt hate?
Book readers know
I feel both Toms got a bit stuck in the weeds with their respective analyses of the film in dissecting character foils and story structure, etc, or perhaps I am being a jerk because I wanted more of a grappling with the existential themes of the story. The story's ideas on imperialism and the nature and value of religion and faith, and how it can be weaponized as the Bene Gesserit have by planting myths of a messiah long before Paul came along were I think the direction I really wanted Tom and Thomas to dissect. The story has alot to think about on the existence of freedom vs determinism, on utilitarianism in doing terrible things for a quote on quote greater good, on the tragedy of knowing what path the future will take but being powerless to avert it. I feel religion is treated in a very interesting way in this story, because it's both a tool of the state and IS the state in a sense
See you in 2027!
I'm confused. What?
I wish u guys didn't leave
My homies take 86 dune as gospel *eye roll* we watched part one and part two. I’m like it’s literally impossible to fully adapt a 21 hour long novel (audiobook) into a fucking movie lmao I love part one and two, and I’ve read the first book, Messiah and children…
I love the sense of scale in the new dune movies It’s like finally somebody actually did it to me every other movie instead of scale not on this grant available. It’s kind of boring now.
Also, they got really hung up over the pronunciation of the fucking knife like bro come on
Wtaf? Genuinely moved at a couple of moments. Feel sorry for you bro
It's essentially a remake of Lynchs Dune and not the novel.
Bearded older Duke Leto.
Long haired taller Paul.
Baron is gross in behavior and appearance.
Harkonnen Soldiers suits are all black with helmets.
Harkonnen ships are dual pod shaped.
Emperor is geriatric.
Just too many similarities that are not drawn from depictions from the novel.
Dune: Part 2 doesn't compare to the first one. The first one is sooo much better.
I've watched the first Dune 3 times so far. And every time it was effortless (It's a 155 minute film).
The second part has some very janky editing. Soundtrack isn't following the story as it should. Cinematography is a touch worse than it was in the first one.
If I'm being honest - I have a feeling that Villeneuve thought he was making a two-parter, but studios came in and offered him more money to make it a trilogy.
That's why I think Part 2 doesn't work as well as the first film. I might be wrong but his first Dune is comparable to his Blade Runner - they were both works of art.
Dune: Part 2 falls short.
Dune: Part 2 has (at times) very bad editing, it sometimes has long boring fight scenes and at times it just doesn't care about world-consistency.
So, tl;dr - Dune: Part 2 is a lot worse than Dune (2021). It's still a good movie but nowhere near as good as the first one.
Agreed. The ending was completely rushed. It needed another half hour.
Part 1 was beautiful but extremely boring; I'm not wasting my time with part 2.
Bad call
I've never understood that criticism. Compared to marvel I guess it is boring, but compared to Denis Villeneuve's other films it's not that slow at all.
Either way Dune 2 is a lot more fast paced and dense in spectacle, you would be missing out imo.
@ranzu3138 I've got an excellent attention span; as I could easily sit through JFK, The Zone of Interest, Apocalypse Now etc. However; Dune: Part 1, The Batman, and Oppenheimer all literally put me to sleep.
@frankthecat1660 So you got bad taste in film
@@frankthecat1660 interesting, would that be because of the characters and story?