I was a helicopter crewman in army. Most of us had revolves with tracers. The idea being someone is going to pick you up pretty quickly and being able to signal your position was more important than shooting bad guys.
@@jasoncornell1579 I think the point was more that they act like a flare AND antipersonelll ammo all in one round. Getting confused and shooting bullets at S&R aircraft or flares at enemy combatants is bad. Having one kind of ammo that does both reduces confusion and carried weight.
I think military pilots needed a pistol the same reason an officer needed a pistol on a lifeboat: it's about asserting who's boss. These aircraft are dangerous, expensive and mission critical equipment that anyone may try to sabotage or just try to hijack or maybe threaten the pilot to take him somewhere, you need something better than an honor system.
It's primary purpose was to force you to break contact since the lightweight gun would just flip out of your hand and over your shoulder, necessitating the need to gain more distance from the enemy in order to fire again.
Especially considering there's no nomenclature that designates "Max 130gr .38 SPL" printed on the gun anywhere. I understand that it's for military use, but still... You'd think they'd at least print such an important guideline on the frame of the the gun SOMEWHERE...
@@ajcole4585 I don't think that would be an adequate solution, as the barrel would need to be upgraded as well. Best to just stick with 130gr if you can find them...
@@pastorofmuppets325 Its not the weight of the bullet that matters. You could shoot 158gr bullets through them. It's the powder type and quantity that you use. I don't know the government pressure spec, but you could possibly get away with loading them with 125gr bullets and get a slightly higher velocity.
Told a friend (who is in the Air Force) about this. His response? "That is such an Air Force complaint; 'my gun's too heavy!'" (implied valley girl inflection is implied)
@M Via My old man was an nco at the air force (Turkish). He served 23 years growing tomatoes and rabbits behind anti-aircraft class barracks. They called their seniors "abi" (big brother). When i served, i kinda thought i got this, being accustomed to military and all. Boy, i was a mechanized infantry and i got scolded for calling my platoon sergeant, "sergeant". Point is whatever country you're in, air force is relax and chill. Army, isn't. (Or marines in some countries)
Most of those guns were carried in parachute packs as a survival weapon. They weren't carried as a sidearm. It was the weight limits of early ejection seats that made the overall weight of every item in the pack important.
@@invictusprima4437 Yeah, you can be assured that not everyone understands the basics of thermodynamics ;D. No really, why would you do something this stupid other than for the muzzle flash XD. If you want something that small, than take a pistol or a a sub machine gun, chamber it in 22. hornet,22. mag, 22 long, 9mm, 45. or really any other pistol caliber. They are all sufficient deadly.
@@notjimpickens7928 sounds like someone made poor lifestyle choices
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Unfortunately the Air Force kept issuing the M-41 ammo. I was an U.S. Air Force Security Police Officer (Law Enforcement Specialist) 1983-1989. My issue handgun was a S&W M-15 Combat Masterpiece 38 Special. The issue 130 grain FMJ M-41 ammo was a joke, one step above throwing rocks.
in 1974 I had access to a S&W model 15 and some m41 ammo (USAF 1lt), shot some pop cans filled with sand, round knocked can over with entry hole, bullet stayed in can, probably hit like an old S&W .38 (not special) load.
On the weight during ejection topic that rings true to me, as in the British RAF pilots were having their Hi-Powers literally being ripped off of their vests during an ejection so they procured and started issuing Walther PPs to fast jet pilots which were used until actually pretty recently. I think the PPs actually came from the police who dropped them as they were too unreliable (I think it was possibly a maintenance regime issue rather than the guns themselves though IIRC). This is kind of borne out in an incident during the '91 gulf war when a Tornado was shot down and the crew captured and an Iraqi soldier tried to fire the PP into the air in celebration but it jammed.
I never understood why the Brits never put much into their small arms, I've heard that soldiers still are issued Hi-powers to this day. Do you know if that's true?
@@kylewhite8434 the Browning HP went out of British Army service completely around 20 years ago. Now the SIG and various HK are issued. As a former Browning user I have to say it's a fantastic weapon, but it doesn't have the capacity of modern pistols. We take small arms very seriously by the way.
Hi-Power was in service until 2013ish, special forces got SIG sauer 226s and 228s at early 90s. 2007 they started to replace Hi-Powers with SIG sauer 226Rs and special forces got Glock 17&19 around 2013/14.
So, instead of just replacing the aluminum cylinders with steel ones, lets trash the the entire lot and buy brand new guns identical to the old ones, but with a steel cylinder... thats our government
I’m mildly amused by the irony of SAC crewman ejecting, and goes from being armed with multi-megaton gravity bomb to a low pressure .38 The .38 would be rather easier to tote around though!
Interesting background about the M41 130 grain FMJ 38 Special load. As an Army CID agent I was issued an S&W model 10 revolver with 2 inch barrel and M41 ammunition-at least during my final pre-retirement assignment. (I don’t know about previous assignments because I didn’t note that detail of the ammunition.) From a duty revolver a six-shot sample averaged 708 feet per second. Later in 1989 I chronographed a similar Winchester load with the same 130 grain FMJ bullet and whose cases were marked “WCC 88.” That 10-round sample averaged 714 fps, but with a large extreme spread of 70 fps. As always, thank you.
Reminds me of the Roscoe "Satuday Night Specials" made of zinc alloy . Back in the day Roscoe was police jargon for Saturday Night Special or any cheaply made revolver .
I had one of those red ring toy snub nose. It fit in the left arm zipper pocket of my faux USAF parka. Circa 1971-73. It looked like the revolver used by Shaft.
When I was a kid, late 1960s - early 1970s, there was a series of articles called "I have this old gun" in The American Rifleman magazine. I went through my dad's stack of old "American Rifleman" (which went back to perhaps 1960? Lots of full back page Sam Cummings Interarms advertisements?!). I read every one of those "old gun" articles. I wonder if anyone ever collected all of these articles into one file/book??? Ian could use it as a bedtime book for his kids...
Man that is really cool. I have an original 50s era Colt Cobra in VG condition that was built to a level of perfection that I've never seen in any revolver made today.
My dad was in the Air Force from 56 to 73. He was a small arms instructor. I showed him this video and he remembers those guns, and not fondly. Said they had a lot of snap and not very accurate.
We carried similar steel S&W revolvers in our USAF survival vests in SAR (helicopter) squadrons. But if we were forced down we also had M-16s or could dismount an M-60 for some actual firepower.
In the 80’s as an Air Force aircrew member, I was issued a S&W Model 15. But I think they were still using the low velocity ammo. I only ever fired it in training. It wasn’t a very snappy Carthage.
Very snappy Carthage ? I'm sorry , you comment must have fallen prey to autocorrect programming but I just had to laugh . The Romans thought Carthage was very snappy , what with invading Rome over the Alps and all . During my time in the US Navy I had the dubious honor of visiting Tunis , Tunisia where Carthage used to be . Thanks for your service , Brother .
S&W 337 Airweight weighs in at 13 oz, unloaded. It’s so light, I had to double back home several times to retrieve it, having left with an empty holster. Absolutely no fun to shoot, but a joy to carry! After 15 years, I retired it, having shot fewer than 2000 rounds, which my hands still flinch at the mere wakening of the memory.
As aircrew, I flew with a S&W .38 spcl all the way to about 1988/1989, when it was replaced by the Beretta. I think they were model 15, they did have adjustable sights and a longer barrel than this.
"I can just imagine what it was like to shoot one." No, you can't. With wadcutters, both this and the S&W were torturous. They were farkin' PAINFUL. I had to familiarize fire one. Never again. OMG. The charter .357 lightweight is a damned dream next to this monstrosity.
I actually have a genuine holster for one of these. For the longest time I thought it was a generic 1911 holster until someone who knew what the stamps on it meant.
The Air Force was still issuing the m-41 round until about 1980. Needless to say shooting this round in a S&W M-15 was comfortable if not especially effective as an antipersonnel load.
The PGU-12/B ammunition that we loaded in our Smith and Wesson Model 15s was sorry enough (sweet shooting as it was). I can't imaging anything less being effective enough to be worth carrying.
Very interesting. I traded for a S&W model 12 38 made in about 1972. Smith built it with a steel cylinder for civilian sales. It inspected and shot fine and I gave it to my dad for personal defense. I learned some of the history of the aircrew project, so I find this interesting. The model 12 was a light weight revolver. Perfect for a CCW.
I have a Detective Special around this age. I really don't think it needed to be lightened anymore, it weighs about as much as my phone empty. These things kick hard too.
You seem so knowledgeable and articulate on these matters that you should be a full professor at Harvard or the like. Your 411 on gun matters is very interesting and super entertaining.
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That handle has been handled millions of times : D P.D. I'm spanish and not a guy of arms but your series of spanish arms hooked me up to your channel :- )
the cylinder is aluminum and nothing else? if so, steel tubes for the actual chambers while the rest of the cylinder body remained aluminum might have helped provide safety while only adding slight weight
@@ayebraine Using a hardened and tempered 4140 steel at 100,000 psi yield, the replacement liner would need to be at least 0.06" wall thickness for an adequate margin of safety with standard .38 Special ammo.
Also, instead of loading a low-pressure .38 Special that was externally interchangeable with ANY .38 Special, why not just order a .38 S&W revolver that would be fine with an aluminum cylinder AND the whole cylinder and frame would be a few millimeters shorter and lighter?
That’s what I was thinking the whole time watching the video. If the goal is to make a gun that is as light as possible, why would you chamber it in .38 Special, when the same amount of gun powder could probably be stuffed in a much shorter case, and then you could make the gun itself shorter, and, well, lighter? After all, doesn’t .38 Special have a very large case, because it was originally a black powder cartridge? Given that it’s a special weapon only issued to bomber crews, you would think it wouldn’t be much of a logistical problem even if the thing used ammunition specially developed for it. It’s not like you are going to supply a downed bomber crew in Siberia with more revolver ammunition. So is there some valid reason for using .38 Special?
If you wanted to do a modern version of this, I wonder if it would be possible to make the cylinder and barrel the way they make Carl Gustav M3 barrels, i.e. a thin steel liner with carbon fibre wrapped around it to give it the strength to resist expansion? Obviously, winding a carbon-fibre six-round cylinder is an exercise of non-trivial complexity and equally obviously, it's going to cost a packet, but then this is the military we're talking about...
I really like those old school snubbies. They were effective defensive firearms. Now everyone wants semi-auto's that hold as many rounds as possible and if they consider a revolver they seek the power calibers, .44 mag, etc.. When in a deadly encounter most never get off more the three rounds. I feel .38 spl. is plenty enough to stop an attacker and you can carry a small frame snub nose in an ankle holster, or any holster, or even a pocket, very comfortably. I really enjoy your video's, very professional and informative , A-1 brother , thank you !
Sure! I was in the market for a pocket pistol, deep concealment, last ditch kind of pistol. I found some small 9mm semi autos that I was really liking the idea of. But the mag capacity would be 5, 6, or 7 ( though +1) I realized that a "six shooter" revolver would've been better in almost every way.
I have a S&W 340 AirLite Sc in .357 Magnum. 11.4 ounces with Crimson Trace grips. The barrel is marked "No less than 120 Gr Bullet". As to shooting it, "unpleasant" is a good an adjective as any, but perhaps a bit understated.
Just wanted to thank you for the inclusion of metric mass and velocity. It's a lot easier to picture the energy of a projectile this way (as a scientist/engineer)
As a person who aced their high school physics finals, I agree. It's just easier in Metric. Conversion factors are always 10s (physical constants aren't conversion factors).
It’s easy to see how misinformed gun lore gets started from situations like this: “When I was in the air service I had a 38 special and it was so weak you couldn’t kill a squirrel with it”, or alternatively “I got a surplus colt 38 and I blew up the first time I shot it! Colt guns are junk!” My brother’s new to him 40 S&W Shield self destructed for unknown reasons and when we brought it back to the store to exchange it, there were customers who said after seeing it they would never buy S&W again. Me? I happily took the new replacement 40 Shield back out to the range.
I have one of the modern scandium S&W 357 snubbies they weigh about the same but firing full magnums. Due to the strength of the materials they are safe to fire, but urban legends have it that wrist bones have been fractured.
To think that they could've shaved off the same amount of weight by keeping the steel cylinder and removing material from various parts of the frame, _without_ risking the exploding-cylinder problem.
So its essentially an old and unsafe version of the 11.4oz S&W 360 PD which is a .357 magnum. The guys in my local gun store tell me its like catching a 90mph fast ball with your bare hands.
So shoot .38 Special or get the .32 H&R Magnum version for even less recoil. Then you've got a great gun you can match to the level of recoil you're comfortable with (you can shoot .32 S&W and .32 Long in a .32 H&R revolver). Shooting .357 in those ultralight revolvers is pretty much just a gimmick. I would consider buying a Colt Aircrewman with slightly upgraded materials that could fire standard .32 H&R Magnum ammunition. If the Aircrewman had been chambered in a cartridge with lower pressure than .38 Special, like .32 Long, it may have worked well with off-the-shelf ammo.
I am far from an expert on these small 38s but I can pass on my experience. I was but a SAC tanker (KC 135), bomber (FB111) and T-39/RC-135 executive support pilot. I also spent 3 years as a security police commander. In tankers during the Vietnam war we flew with a S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece with 4"barrel in our survival vest. In the FB-111 we carried the same weapon in a shoulder holster for transporting nuclear weapon release codes. The light weight versions were only used for anti hijack on executive support flights with passengers. My memory, however, is that it was a 5 shot that we carried in an ankle holster loaded with 2 rounds of 3" lead pellet bean bags in a plastic "bullet" designed to stun but not penetrate the pressurized aircraft skin. The next 3 rounds were unjacketed hollowpoints designed to kill but hopefully not penetrate - but not enough that they probably would. Also carried the marine version of the compact M-16 that was designated the GAU-5. LOVED IT. But, for pure fun you couldn't beat the M-60. The hot barrel swap was its biggest drawback in my mind. Stopping a runaway by breaking the belt was easy and could be recovered quickly. But for looking sharp and impressing the tourists, nothing beat our bone handled nickel plated .357's. Your program is great from the perspectives of informative content, unique items and entertaining presentation.
Wow, good question, didn't think of that. It would eliminate people putting a full charge 38 special in there for sure. Wait.... you are using logic.... you cannot do that in government spending..... so no won't work LOL
Best Sat. Night Special ever! And extremely popular world wide in this time frame - a resourceful downed pilot might have even been able to obtain more ammo.
@@tdestroyer4780 then you aren't trying hard enough. If you apply a bit of pressure it'll fit just fine! Hell, I shoot almost exclusively buffalo bore 357 magnum out of my 38 special revolver from the 60's and it works like a charm
It might have been used in combat at least once. I recall reading an autobiography of a shot-down Cobra pilot who emptied one at a VC/NVA who promptly ran away. I don't recall the author or title. The two airmen were hiding in the bush for at least two weeks.
They are making different versions of the new King Cobra, not to be confused with their 1980's/90's King Cobras plus they are still slowly turning out SAA's.... very slowly.
They are but I’m not impressed with the performance for the price. Paying for the name and honestly it’s not worth another $400 over the Smith and Wesson
That is the smoothest cylinder release I have ever seen. When they went to a steel cylinder it went from 14.5 oz to 18 oz. Still a pretty light gun if you ask me.
An all-aluminum ultralight snubnose would be great in rimfire! With modern aluminum if this gun was made today could probably handle standard pressure .38 Special. But it might be better in .32 H&R Magnum (which can also safely fire .32 Long and .32 Short), .22 Magnum, or .22LR. But S&W J-frames and Ruger LCRs are only at most a couple of ounces heavier. Still, for weaker rounds like .22LR we could comfortably shoot even lighter revolvers. It would be pretty cool to see a revolver weighing less than 10oz. The technology exists. A longer-barreled version of the same gun would also be neat. Even with less powerful rounds than .38 Special, revolvers can be very useful. Snake guns, survival guns, backup guns (maybe a backup to your backup), deep concealment, plinking, utility, animal dispatch and slaughter. S&W can make a 13oz .357 Magnum, so I expect a 10oz .22LR could be made. It would be fun and useful, and might be a very nice backup gun in .32 Long.
I recently bought an airplane and I need to run some new fuel line between the tanks and the motor. I'm trying to locate thin walled fuel tubing. Why? Because it weighs less. If you have an airplane, you look at getting the lightest weight EVERYTHING. Little bits of weight add up. It's an 'airplane thing' to get the lightest possible---whatever.
130 grain bullet at about 725-750 fps from a 2 inch barrel sounds conspicuously like the winchester white box 38 special that is sold at wally world .......
This revolver made me think of a cool, well in my eyes, action movie scene. Imagine a big aircraft made for carrying supplies getting intersected by enemy jets. The bad ass in this movie opens a door and sends one well placed bullet right into the jet engine of one, sending it plummeting into another one, and they fall to the ground. That would be some bad ass shit!
Woah when I was a kid I had a "primer/cap" (idk what they're called in english) toy gun replica of this gun. You know those that you put these things in and when you pull the trigger there's a "loud" pop.
Just a quick question. Could the Aircrewman have been made safe for standard .38 Special (158 gr.) ammo if the aluminum cylinder had been made for 5 rounds instead of 6 and not fluted?
I think there's an example of one of these (not sure if it's the Colt or the S&W) in the NC State Bureau of Investigation lab. Apparently someone stole it from the manufacturer and it eventually got used in a crime and seized by the cops. The story I got told was that it was one of two in existence, the other being in the manufacturer's museum. When the SBI called in the serial number they got told that the gun didn't exist. That's how they found out it had been stolen. I'm not sure how true the legend is, but maybe you could call the SBI and ask them to see it.
It was a 2" S&W Model 15. The USAF initially designated it the M56. Later, a 4" Model 15 was adopted for the USAF's security forces. (The name of the latter organization has changed multiple times over the years.)
"Make it light. But put a wooden grip on it." What else would they make the grip panels out of? Plastic or rubber is significantly heavier than walnut for a given volume. The types of plastic and rubber that are suitable for making grip panels have a density of about 1 to 1.2 g/cm3. The really strong plastics, like the ones reinforced with glass or graphite fibers (which includes DuPont Zytel, as well as "carbon fiber" and fiberglass composites), have a density of about 1.3 to 2 g/cm3 (depending on how much graphite or glass fiber is in there), while walnut (and many other hardwoods) has a density of about 0.65 to 0.7 g/cm3. For lightweight gun furniture, nothing beats wood. If you find a lighter material, it won't be as strong as wood. That's a "secret" that the "tacticool" crowd doesn't know about. Look at the M1 carbine; it's all steel with a wood stock and it only weighs 5.2 pounds empty, while a current M4 carbine weighs 6.5 pounds empty, and that's with an aluminum upper and lower receiver, plastic furniture, and a barrel that's 3.5" shorter than the M1 carbine's barrel.
@@leoschorberschofskie4628 What do you mean by non solid? If you're talking about making lightening holes in the grips, you can do that with wood, though it isn't really a good idea because it would make an opening for crud to get into the mainspring area and into the lockwork from there. Those wooden grip panels weigh next to nothing as-is anyway.
@@MaximRecoil actually I forgot a revolver has some mechanical parts inside the grip. I imagined something like a sten gun grip made from aloy. But as you are right, and there are parts in the grip, this obviously isn't a solution.
My dad had one of these strapped to his vest in Vietnam. He flew in C130s for recon and com. One of those ones with the big radar thing ontop. Said he never had to use it but did find a live grenade inside a styrofoam cup IN FLIGHT once. Pilot sat with it between his legs the entire way back. They wanted to throw it out the hatch but it was up front and they were worried the fuse was shortened. The guy who cut his hair also got arrested for trying to bring a bicycle packed with explosives onto the base.
I guess the handle was held fast by the cup and they’d hit turbulence and it would fall over and the Grenade rolls out and boom at 30k feet. I wonder if they were ever successful downing an airplane like that. Scary.
I was a helicopter crewman in army. Most of us had revolves with tracers. The idea being someone is going to pick you up pretty quickly and being able to signal your position was more important than shooting bad guys.
Tracer rounds would work just fine in an anti personnel role
@@jasoncornell1579 I think the point was more that they act like a flare AND antipersonelll ammo all in one round.
Getting confused and shooting bullets at S&R aircraft or flares at enemy combatants is bad. Having one kind of ammo that does both reduces confusion and carried weight.
@John Stacy What revolver did you carry and what was it also a .38 Special?
I think military pilots needed a pistol the same reason an officer needed a pistol on a lifeboat: it's about asserting who's boss.
These aircraft are dangerous, expensive and mission critical equipment that anyone may try to sabotage or just try to hijack or maybe threaten the pilot to take him somewhere, you need something better than an honor system.
It's primary purpose was to force you to break contact since the lightweight gun would just flip out of your hand and over your shoulder, necessitating the need to gain more distance from the enemy in order to fire again.
Escape and evade!
"Could not handle regular .38 ammo". That´s not something you hear very often. o.O
Read Col. Rex Applegate's ideas on shooting.
Especially considering there's no nomenclature that designates "Max 130gr .38 SPL" printed on the gun anywhere. I understand that it's for military use, but still... You'd think they'd at least print such an important guideline on the frame of the the gun SOMEWHERE...
Funny solution is to reem the cylinder and insert steel sleeves that can handle the pressure
@@ajcole4585 I don't think that would be an adequate solution, as the barrel would need to be upgraded as well. Best to just stick with 130gr if you can find them...
@@pastorofmuppets325 Its not the weight of the bullet that matters. You could shoot 158gr bullets through them. It's the powder type and quantity that you use. I don't know the government pressure spec, but you could possibly get away with loading them with 125gr bullets and get a slightly higher velocity.
Told a friend (who is in the Air Force) about this.
His response?
"That is such an Air Force complaint; 'my gun's too heavy!'" (implied valley girl inflection is implied)
M Via Same goes for Army. I was OPFOR in Germany once upon a time, a bunch of angry 19-y/o paratroops is a *very terrifying* sight to see.
@@garymitchell5899 ...You must not be around Vets often.
@M Via My old man was an nco at the air force (Turkish). He served 23 years growing tomatoes and rabbits behind anti-aircraft class barracks. They called their seniors "abi" (big brother). When i served, i kinda thought i got this, being accustomed to military and all. Boy, i was a mechanized infantry and i got scolded for calling my platoon sergeant, "sergeant". Point is whatever country you're in, air force is relax and chill. Army, isn't. (Or marines in some countries)
@@garymitchell5899 can you not
Most of those guns were carried in parachute packs as a survival weapon. They weren't carried as a sidearm. It was the weight limits of early ejection seats that made the overall weight of every item in the pack important.
He literally said that.
@@Agentcoolguy1 It sounded to me like he thought some of these might have been carried as normal sidearms.
@@sarjim4381 I did hear that.
@@Agentcoolguy1 I'm glad I wasn't the only one.
Pistols and Revolvers were carried as sidearms when I was on active duty and I worked at Cargo and Fighter bases.
"Just a little two inch barrel", let me tell you something Ian. It's not the length of your barrel it's how you use it.
Sean Dwyer Spoken like someone who recently heard “are you pointing it at me yet?”
Well, you need a minimum barrel lenght to make effective use of your powder, technically speaking of course ;D.
Mandernach Luca I’ve seen AR barrels cut down to where the tip of the bullet stick out the muzzle
@@invictusprima4437
Yeah, you can be assured that not everyone understands the basics of thermodynamics ;D. No really, why would you do something this stupid other than for the muzzle flash XD. If you want something that small, than take a pistol or a a sub machine gun, chamber it in 22. hornet,22. mag, 22 long, 9mm, 45. or really any other pistol caliber. They are all sufficient deadly.
2 inch is still as small as they get ..
Feels like I'm shootin' nothing at all... nothing at all... nothing at all!
...Stupid sexy Air Force!
*chair force
In this case you'd feel like you were shooting a truck out of a cow's anus.
The lighter the gun, the more felt the recoil. Even for pistols.
@@austinslaughter319 yeah but we have 13oz 9mm now a days..
Hahaha- I get it, good one!
@@notjimpickens7928 sounds like someone made poor lifestyle choices
Unfortunately the Air Force kept issuing the M-41 ammo. I was an U.S. Air Force Security Police Officer (Law Enforcement Specialist) 1983-1989. My issue handgun was a S&W M-15 Combat Masterpiece 38 Special. The issue 130 grain FMJ M-41 ammo was a joke, one step above throwing rocks.
I remember that. I shot a box on a qual in 89. And the ammo was marked 1963.
Extra safe!
in 1974 I had access to a S&W model 15 and some m41 ammo (USAF 1lt), shot some pop cans filled with sand, round knocked can over with entry hole, bullet stayed in can, probably hit like an old S&W .38 (not special) load.
You have forgotten more about guns than most people know about guns. I love watching your videos thank you
Wonder how many civilians blew them up with the wrong ammo.
Increasing the number of guys nicknamed Lefty.
@@SherryPM72 And those nicknamed "Righty", although by a smaller margin.
@@SherryPM72 And/or nicknamed Stubby...
Josiah Gibson k
Would you be OK if you loaded them with weak wadcutters though? Because the specs Ian mentioned are close to wadcutter numbers.
On the weight during ejection topic that rings true to me, as in the British RAF pilots were having their Hi-Powers literally being ripped off of their vests during an ejection so they procured and started issuing Walther PPs to fast jet pilots which were used until actually pretty recently. I think the PPs actually came from the police who dropped them as they were too unreliable (I think it was possibly a maintenance regime issue rather than the guns themselves though IIRC). This is kind of borne out in an incident during the '91 gulf war when a Tornado was shot down and the crew captured and an Iraqi soldier tried to fire the PP into the air in celebration but it jammed.
I never understood why the Brits never put much into their small arms, I've heard that soldiers still are issued Hi-powers to this day. Do you know if that's true?
@@kylewhite8434 officially the Sig Sauer P220 has been adopted, but I think the hi-power is still in use
@@kylewhite8434 the Browning HP went out of British Army service completely around 20 years ago. Now the SIG and various HK are issued. As a former Browning user I have to say it's a fantastic weapon, but it doesn't have the capacity of modern pistols. We take small arms very seriously by the way.
@@kylewhite8434 There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Hi-power! (Except for the magazine disconnect safety thing, which is easily fixed)
Hi-Power was in service until 2013ish, special forces got SIG sauer 226s and 228s at early 90s. 2007 they started to replace Hi-Powers with SIG sauer 226Rs and special forces got Glock 17&19 around 2013/14.
So, instead of just replacing the aluminum cylinders with steel ones, lets trash the the entire lot and buy brand new guns identical to the old ones, but with a steel cylinder... thats our government
Exactly my thought. A couple of decent armorers could have had the whole batch converted in a few weeks.
Laundering money since...... idk but pretty much how it works
Well when you have 700 billion to spend a year you gotta get creative, not smart.
GENIOUZ
Cheapest bidder leaves little room for improvements
I’m mildly amused by the irony of SAC crewman ejecting, and goes from being armed with multi-megaton gravity bomb to a low pressure .38
The .38 would be rather easier to tote around though!
@@TwoDogsBigYard That's bleak mate.
Used for the suicide option for those who are adverse to swallowing the cyanide capsule
Just equip those pilots with slingshots , those are light weight and you have unlimited ammo .
@@pete_lind Rubber bands harden over time. gunpowder just slows fps over time.
markknife1 then just slings.
Props to your cameraman- nice and sharp at close range, no autofocus wandering around, well lit, easy to see the fine details.
Ounces make pounds. Sometimes lack of ounces make explosions though.
Do love the old snubbies.
Interesting background about the M41 130 grain FMJ 38 Special load. As an Army CID agent I was issued an S&W model 10 revolver with 2 inch barrel and M41 ammunition-at least during my final pre-retirement assignment. (I don’t know about previous assignments because I didn’t note that detail of the ammunition.) From a duty revolver a six-shot sample averaged 708 feet per second. Later in 1989 I chronographed a similar Winchester load with the same 130 grain FMJ bullet and whose cases were marked “WCC 88.” That 10-round sample averaged 714 fps, but with a large extreme spread of 70 fps. As always, thank you.
I think this gun is the inspiration for those cap guns sold almost everywhere or a modified cap gun to be real
Reminds me of the Roscoe "Satuday Night Specials" made of zinc alloy . Back in the day Roscoe was police jargon for Saturday Night Special or any cheaply made revolver .
I had one of those red ring toy snub nose. It fit in the left arm zipper pocket of my faux USAF parka. Circa 1971-73. It looked like the revolver used by Shaft.
Fun fact: that cap-gun paper ribbon was used as a priming method on some early firearms. This I know, because Gun Jesus told me so.
Oml I can't unsee it
Edit: fak u autocorrect
Actually it was modelled after a .22lr revolver
As a Colt revolver fan, I've never thought that I'd actually see one of these.
They should have listened to Boris the Blade
But the gun he sold tommy was a dud.....
@@johnm3907 if it doesn't work, you could just hit him with it
john m heavy is good, heavy is reliable.
You mean Boris the Sneaky Fucking Russian.
Really earned his nickname with taking multiple .50AE shots and continuing his insults 😂👍🏻
When I was a kid, late 1960s - early 1970s, there was a series of articles called "I have this old gun" in The American Rifleman magazine.
I went through my dad's stack of old "American Rifleman" (which went back to perhaps 1960? Lots of full back page Sam Cummings Interarms advertisements?!).
I read every one of those "old gun" articles. I wonder if anyone ever collected all of these articles into one file/book??? Ian could use it as a bedtime book for his kids...
It'd be great to scan and upload those to somewhere they'll be appreciated, like the Internet Archive. :)
I have alot of those
Ian, you have so many good videos - I just keep finding more and more!
Thank you , Ian .
This guy is honestly one of the smartest people I've ever watched or listened to I learn something cool on every video uploaded
Man that is really cool. I have an original 50s era Colt Cobra in VG condition that was built to a level of perfection that I've never seen in any revolver made today.
My dad was in the Air Force from 56 to 73. He was a small arms instructor. I showed him this video and he remembers those guns, and not fondly. Said they had a lot of snap and not very accurate.
Having some eggs n' bacon while listening to Gun Jesus's soothing voice. Life is good.
My guess is you'll never get bored in retirement...
Was waiting for a "Hickok45 here..."
Shitting while listening to Gun Jesus's soothing voice is better than a tall cup of coffee. Trust me.
Joseph Coronado omg ha love that guy
We carried similar steel S&W revolvers in our USAF survival vests in SAR (helicopter) squadrons. But if we were forced down we also had M-16s or could dismount an M-60 for some actual firepower.
Absolutely beautiful gun though. I love the finish with the accelerated aluminum wear!
I know right! It's gorgeous
Its pretty sexy😎
In the 80’s as an Air Force aircrew member, I was issued a S&W Model 15. But I think they were still using the low velocity ammo. I only ever fired it in training. It wasn’t a very snappy Carthage.
Very snappy Carthage ? I'm sorry , you comment must have fallen prey to autocorrect programming but I just had to laugh . The Romans thought Carthage was very snappy , what with invading Rome over the Alps and all . During my time in the US Navy I had the dubious honor of visiting Tunis , Tunisia where Carthage used to be . Thanks for your service , Brother .
Ummmm, ahhhhhhh.........
For those of you who used these, At the specs Ian mention. The M41 Ammo had the velocity of a 50 grain FMJ .25 ACP.
S&W 337 Airweight weighs in at 13 oz, unloaded. It’s so light, I had to double back home several times to retrieve it, having left with an empty holster. Absolutely no fun to shoot, but a joy to carry! After 15 years, I retired it, having shot fewer than 2000 rounds, which my hands still flinch at the mere wakening of the memory.
As aircrew, I flew with a S&W .38 spcl all the way to about 1988/1989, when it was replaced by the Beretta. I think they were model 15, they did have adjustable sights and a longer barrel than this.
"I can just imagine what it was like to shoot one." No, you can't. With wadcutters, both this and the S&W were torturous. They were farkin' PAINFUL. I had to familiarize fire one. Never again. OMG. The charter .357 lightweight is a damned dream next to this monstrosity.
Very interesting Colt snub nose revolver Ian Thanks for showing it Sir
really dig the aesthetics of the finish/wear of that gun
I once had a 1965 blue Impala with a plaque: "Property of U.S. Air Force"
...Looks exactly like s pre-1970 Colt Cobra, which I also own. Mine's a 1958 model, Positive Lock, 38 Special. Great little gun!
I actually have a genuine holster for one of these. For the longest time I thought it was a generic 1911 holster until someone who knew what the stamps on it meant.
Mentioned it before, but your presentation's great. Interesting, informative, sometimes funny. Thanks for the upload!
Suddenly the $500 for the one I was looking at isn't as ridiculous as I thought at the time !!!!!
TKS Ian - well done.
The Air Force was still issuing the m-41 round until about 1980. Needless to say shooting this round in a S&W M-15 was comfortable if not especially effective as an antipersonnel load.
I always feel like I’ve learned something cool after watching a video of yours. Thanks for the vid sir.👍🏼👍🏼
The PGU-12/B ammunition that we loaded in our Smith and Wesson Model 15s was sorry enough (sweet shooting as it was). I can't imaging anything less being effective enough to be worth carrying.
Nothing better when you wake up in the hospital than a new forgotten weapons video 😎 love the content
It looks like that pistol was well used even if it wasn't fired very often. The wear on the wooden grips is extensive.
Very interesting. I traded for a S&W model 12 38 made in about 1972. Smith built it with a steel cylinder for civilian sales. It inspected and shot fine and I gave it to my dad for personal defense. I learned some of the history of the aircrew project, so I find this interesting. The model 12 was a light weight revolver. Perfect for a CCW.
I have a Detective Special around this age. I really don't think it needed to be lightened anymore, it weighs about as much as my phone empty. These things kick hard too.
Ian still just an amazing show great job
You seem so knowledgeable and articulate on these matters that you should be a full professor at Harvard or the like. Your 411 on gun matters is very interesting and super entertaining.
That handle has been handled millions of times : D
P.D. I'm spanish and not a guy of arms but your series of spanish arms hooked me up to your channel :- )
the cylinder is aluminum and nothing else? if so, steel tubes for the actual chambers while the rest of the cylinder body remained aluminum might have helped provide safety while only adding slight weight
He said frame is aluminum alloy just like their civilian version.
@@charleshunter2041 And I think @truemisto meant steel liners for the chambers inside the cylinder. This is a solution that's been done I think.
A titanium cylinder would be another option - about the same weight as the aluminum but 3 times as strong ( harder to machine though).
@@luisantolafrancis519 Lockheed may take you to task on this.. (but the Russians may have noticed).
@@ayebraine Using a hardened and tempered 4140 steel at 100,000 psi yield, the replacement liner would need to be at least 0.06" wall thickness for an adequate margin of safety with standard .38 Special ammo.
Great story! Thank you Sir!
Also, instead of loading a low-pressure .38 Special that was externally interchangeable with ANY .38 Special, why not just order a .38 S&W revolver that would be fine with an aluminum cylinder AND the whole cylinder and frame would be a few millimeters shorter and lighter?
Instead of loading low pressure .38, why not load full power .22? This is basically a suicide pistol anyways.
That’s what I was thinking the whole time watching the video. If the goal is to make a gun that is as light as possible, why would you chamber it in .38 Special, when the same amount of gun powder could probably be stuffed in a much shorter case, and then you could make the gun itself shorter, and, well, lighter? After all, doesn’t .38 Special have a very large case, because it was originally a black powder cartridge?
Given that it’s a special weapon only issued to bomber crews, you would think it wouldn’t be much of a logistical problem even if the thing used ammunition specially developed for it. It’s not like you are going to supply a downed bomber crew in Siberia with more revolver ammunition.
So is there some valid reason for using .38 Special?
@@spurdosparde3531 And it's a logistical hassle anyways, because as Ian said, normal .38 ammunition is unsafe. They need special ammo regardless.
If you wanted to do a modern version of this, I wonder if it would be possible to make the cylinder and barrel the way they make Carl Gustav M3 barrels, i.e. a thin steel liner with carbon fibre wrapped around it to give it the strength to resist expansion? Obviously, winding a carbon-fibre six-round cylinder is an exercise of non-trivial complexity and equally obviously, it's going to cost a packet, but then this is the military we're talking about...
Harold Weaver Smith I think Charter Arms does make something similar to this.
The military doesn't operate on a 'no-expenses-spared' basis in reality though (well, maybe the US does to some extent but the rest of the world..)
I really like those old school snubbies. They were effective defensive firearms. Now everyone wants semi-auto's that hold as many rounds as possible and if they consider a revolver they seek the power calibers, .44 mag, etc.. When in a deadly encounter most never get off more the three rounds. I feel .38 spl. is plenty enough to stop an attacker and you can carry a small frame snub nose in an ankle holster, or any holster, or even a pocket, very comfortably.
I really enjoy your video's, very professional and informative , A-1 brother , thank you !
Sure! I was in the market for a pocket pistol, deep concealment, last ditch kind of pistol. I found some small 9mm semi autos that I was really liking the idea of. But the mag capacity would be 5, 6, or 7 ( though +1)
I realized that a "six shooter" revolver would've been better in almost every way.
That gun has some really nice patina or finish
I have a S&W 340 AirLite Sc in .357 Magnum. 11.4 ounces with Crimson Trace grips. The barrel is marked "No less than 120 Gr Bullet".
As to shooting it, "unpleasant" is a good an adjective as any, but perhaps a bit understated.
Aluminum cylinder?? Madness!!
Why didn't they just issue 1911's in shoulder holsters?
My uncle was one of the machinists who destroyed these using a metal cutting bandsaw while under guard of a SAC AP.
I know it wasn't up to him, but why on earth didn't they just make steel replacement cylinders?
Just wanted to thank you for the inclusion of metric mass and velocity. It's a lot easier to picture the energy of a projectile this way (as a scientist/engineer)
As a person who aced their high school physics finals, I agree. It's just easier in Metric. Conversion factors are always 10s (physical constants aren't conversion factors).
I saw one of these with a bulging cylinder. It was very cool to hold in hand.
I had always wondered where that 130gr FMJ load came from.
Outstandingly presentation
It’s easy to see how misinformed gun lore gets started from situations like this: “When I was in the air service I had a 38 special and it was so weak you couldn’t kill a squirrel with it”, or alternatively “I got a surplus colt 38 and I blew up the first time I shot it! Colt guns are junk!” My brother’s new to him 40 S&W Shield self destructed for unknown reasons and when we brought it back to the store to exchange it, there were customers who said after seeing it they would never buy S&W again. Me? I happily took the new replacement 40 Shield back out to the range.
Guns are like automobiles: people will occasionally get lemons.
@@Koji-888 I have been using Nathan Philips as a pseudonym since i was in middle school (2007) and now i have to find a new one...
I have one of the modern scandium S&W 357 snubbies they weigh about the same but firing full magnums. Due to the strength of the materials they are safe to fire, but urban legends have it that wrist bones have been fractured.
Good morning!
To think that they could've shaved off the same amount of weight by keeping the steel cylinder and removing material from various parts of the frame, _without_ risking the exploding-cylinder problem.
So its essentially an old and unsafe version of the 11.4oz S&W 360 PD which is a .357 magnum. The guys in my local gun store tell me its like catching a 90mph fast ball with your bare hands.
Even a 38 snubbie is a miserable gun to shoot. I had caught the j-frame bug, so I rented a Smith Airweight before I bought one - bug cured.
P-Talks don’t get me wrong, I love the airweight and I shoot them well. The 360PD is scandium framed and is an 11.4oz .357 magnum. Big difference.
So shoot .38 Special or get the .32 H&R Magnum version for even less recoil. Then you've got a great gun you can match to the level of recoil you're comfortable with (you can shoot .32 S&W and .32 Long in a .32 H&R revolver). Shooting .357 in those ultralight revolvers is pretty much just a gimmick. I would consider buying a Colt Aircrewman with slightly upgraded materials that could fire standard .32 H&R Magnum ammunition. If the Aircrewman had been chambered in a cartridge with lower pressure than .38 Special, like .32 Long, it may have worked well with off-the-shelf ammo.
I am far from an expert on these small 38s but I can pass on my experience. I was but a SAC tanker (KC 135), bomber (FB111) and T-39/RC-135 executive support pilot. I also spent 3 years as a security police commander. In tankers during the Vietnam war we flew with a S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece with 4"barrel in our survival vest. In the FB-111 we carried the same weapon in a shoulder holster for transporting nuclear weapon release codes. The light weight versions were only used for anti hijack on executive support flights with passengers. My memory, however, is that it was a 5 shot that we carried in an ankle holster loaded with 2 rounds of 3" lead pellet bean bags in a plastic "bullet" designed to stun but not penetrate the pressurized aircraft skin. The next 3 rounds were unjacketed hollowpoints designed to kill but hopefully not penetrate - but not enough that they probably would. Also carried the marine version of the compact M-16 that was designated the GAU-5. LOVED IT. But, for pure fun you couldn't beat the M-60. The hot barrel swap was its biggest drawback in my mind. Stopping a runaway by breaking the belt was easy and could be recovered quickly. But for looking sharp and impressing the tourists, nothing beat our bone handled nickel plated .357's. Your program is great from the perspectives of informative content, unique items and entertaining presentation.
This is why you don’t make a revolver out of plywood and aluminum...
modern aluminum alloys are much better in terms of strength though
*Dehaviland Mosquito will remember that*
Styrofoam is the future of light weight guns.
You can definitely make a reliable and safe firearm from aluminum. Just make sure the pressure bearing parts are up to the task.
3D printed guns. Type it into the search bar.
The Air Force ended up just issuing aircrew it's Standard issue 4" M-15 Combat masterpiece
11 ounces is 311.845 grams, Just leaving It here for fellow metric users.
A Hershey/Cadbury chocolate bar is heavier than this gun...
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 And tastes better too, I guess.
Merci beaucoup! 😉
Now you're confusing viewers in Liberia and Myanmar!
Imperial system bad, metric good.
After dealing with bullshit everyday watching Forgotten Weapons is all I look forward to everyday.
I wonder why they didn't chamber them in .38 S&W?
Wow, good question, didn't think of that. It would eliminate people putting a full charge 38 special in there for sure. Wait.... you are using logic.... you cannot do that in government spending..... so no won't work LOL
When was 38sw developed?
Luisito Bardaji Benitez A longggg time ago
@@luisitobardajibenitez8013 In the cowboy days.
Best Sat. Night Special ever! And extremely popular world wide in this time frame - a resourceful downed pilot might have even been able to obtain more ammo.
What a beautiful shade of green.
C'mon drop a .357 magnum in it.
Won't fit
A 38 can't shoot 357
@@marco_marks Well they fit, just cant close cylinder to shoot it. 😂
@@tdestroyer4780 then you aren't trying hard enough. If you apply a bit of pressure it'll fit just fine! Hell, I shoot almost exclusively buffalo bore 357 magnum out of my 38 special revolver from the 60's and it works like a charm
@@dELTA13579111315 you probably have a .357 then. if you don't your gonna blow your hand off.
It might have been used in combat at least once. I recall reading an autobiography of a shot-down Cobra pilot who emptied one at a VC/NVA who promptly ran away. I don't recall the author or title. The two airmen were hiding in the bush for at least two weeks.
Colt needs to start remaking revolvers 😫
Not with their current quality control yikes!
They are making different versions of the new King Cobra, not to be confused with their 1980's/90's King Cobras plus they are still slowly turning out SAA's.... very slowly.
That just might prevent them from filing their 4th bankruptcy.
Maybe they could contract CZ to make some revolvers for them and then ruin them somehow and walk out on the deal
They are but I’m not impressed with the performance for the price. Paying for the name and honestly it’s not worth another $400 over the Smith and Wesson
Dunno' how you do it but you even make "reject" guns interesting. Great work and thanks for the video's!
I had to back up 10 secs to make sure I heard the 11oz loaded correctly
That is the smoothest cylinder release I have ever seen. When they went to a steel cylinder it went from 14.5 oz to 18 oz. Still a pretty light gun if you ask me.
Hmmmm.... One wonders why they wouldn't have pursued replacing only the cylinders with steel ones while keeping all the other features.
An all-aluminum ultralight snubnose would be great in rimfire! With modern aluminum if this gun was made today could probably handle standard pressure .38 Special. But it might be better in .32 H&R Magnum (which can also safely fire .32 Long and .32 Short), .22 Magnum, or .22LR. But S&W J-frames and Ruger LCRs are only at most a couple of ounces heavier. Still, for weaker rounds like .22LR we could comfortably shoot even lighter revolvers. It would be pretty cool to see a revolver weighing less than 10oz. The technology exists. A longer-barreled version of the same gun would also be neat. Even with less powerful rounds than .38 Special, revolvers can be very useful. Snake guns, survival guns, backup guns (maybe a backup to your backup), deep concealment, plinking, utility, animal dispatch and slaughter. S&W can make a 13oz .357 Magnum, so I expect a 10oz .22LR could be made. It would be fun and useful, and might be a very nice backup gun in .32 Long.
I recently bought an airplane and I need to run some new fuel line between the tanks and the motor. I'm trying to locate thin walled fuel tubing. Why? Because it weighs less. If you have an airplane, you look at getting the lightest weight EVERYTHING. Little bits of weight add up. It's an 'airplane thing' to get the lightest possible---whatever.
130 grain bullet at about 725-750 fps from a 2 inch barrel sounds conspicuously like the winchester white box 38 special that is sold at wally world .......
This revolver made me think of a cool, well in my eyes, action movie scene. Imagine a big aircraft made for carrying supplies getting intersected by enemy jets. The bad ass in this movie opens a door and sends one well placed bullet right into the jet engine of one, sending it plummeting into another one, and they fall to the ground. That would be some bad ass shit!
Woah when I was a kid I had a "primer/cap" (idk what they're called in english) toy gun replica of this gun. You know those that you put these things in and when you pull the trigger there's a "loud" pop.
Just a quick question. Could the Aircrewman have been made safe for standard .38 Special (158 gr.) ammo if the aluminum cylinder had been made for 5 rounds instead of 6 and not fluted?
I think there's an example of one of these (not sure if it's the Colt or the S&W) in the NC State Bureau of Investigation lab. Apparently someone stole it from the manufacturer and it eventually got used in a crime and seized by the cops.
The story I got told was that it was one of two in existence, the other being in the manufacturer's museum. When the SBI called in the serial number they got told that the gun didn't exist. That's how they found out it had been stolen.
I'm not sure how true the legend is, but maybe you could call the SBI and ask them to see it.
There are more than 2. About a hundred known survivors. I know there are more. How many more probably not many. But I have one that is not known.
Does anyone know what weapon this was replaced with after withdrawl? What was the designation for the steel replacement?
S&W K-38 Combat Masterpiece
It was a 2" S&W Model 15. The USAF initially designated it the M56. Later, a 4" Model 15 was adopted for the USAF's security forces. (The name of the latter organization has changed multiple times over the years.)
I remember seeing that SAC museum & they had them for bomber crews at that time
Make it light. But put a wooden grip on it.
"Make it light. But put a wooden grip on it."
What else would they make the grip panels out of? Plastic or rubber is significantly heavier than walnut for a given volume. The types of plastic and rubber that are suitable for making grip panels have a density of about 1 to 1.2 g/cm3. The really strong plastics, like the ones reinforced with glass or graphite fibers (which includes DuPont Zytel, as well as "carbon fiber" and fiberglass composites), have a density of about 1.3 to 2 g/cm3 (depending on how much graphite or glass fiber is in there), while walnut (and many other hardwoods) has a density of about 0.65 to 0.7 g/cm3.
For lightweight gun furniture, nothing beats wood. If you find a lighter material, it won't be as strong as wood. That's a "secret" that the "tacticool" crowd doesn't know about. Look at the M1 carbine; it's all steel with a wood stock and it only weighs 5.2 pounds empty, while a current M4 carbine weighs 6.5 pounds empty, and that's with an aluminum upper and lower receiver, plastic furniture, and a barrel that's 3.5" shorter than the M1 carbine's barrel.
@@MaximRecoil I thought of something like a non solid grip.
@@leoschorberschofskie4628 What do you mean by non solid? If you're talking about making lightening holes in the grips, you can do that with wood, though it isn't really a good idea because it would make an opening for crud to get into the mainspring area and into the lockwork from there. Those wooden grip panels weigh next to nothing as-is anyway.
@@leoschorberschofskie4628 So some sort of perforated grip like a fine screen? Curious idea...
@@MaximRecoil actually I forgot a revolver has some mechanical parts inside the grip. I imagined something like a sten gun grip made from aloy. But as you are right, and there are parts in the grip, this obviously isn't a solution.
I didn't realize there was something special about how m41 was loaded. Could make a good episode.
Damn, now I wanna see some .38 +P put through it.
Now we have a makeshift grenade lol
Wish we still issued revolvers. I love those grips.
@3:41 Jesus says "butt" lmao
My dad had one of these strapped to his vest in Vietnam. He flew in C130s for recon and com. One of those ones with the big radar thing ontop. Said he never had to use it but did find a live grenade inside a styrofoam cup IN FLIGHT once. Pilot sat with it between his legs the entire way back. They wanted to throw it out the hatch but it was up front and they were worried the fuse was shortened. The guy who cut his hair also got arrested for trying to bring a bicycle packed with explosives onto the base.
I guess the handle was held fast by the cup and they’d hit turbulence and it would fall over and the Grenade rolls out and boom at 30k feet. I wonder if they were ever successful downing an airplane like that. Scary.
Is that the revolver that one of the helicopter pilots pointed at a officer in we were soliders?
No, that was the S&W Aircrewman.
@@strikerdelta I don't think those were issued to pilots for very long either, but I could be wrong.