I had trouble with a GWS puma accumulating condensation and losing loft on a 10 day trip I did in Patagonia last year. I was able to hang it to dry twice which helped increase the loft again but after a few nights it would sag and was a cold sleeper. The GWS is designed for very cold and very dry situations like the northern rockies in winter. The GWS can keep outside water out but it has big problems letting body condensation breathe through it. If the humidity gradient isn't extreme between inside and outside air, then condensation will accumulate if you are using the bag several nights in a row. If you have the luxury of a warm, dry area to air out your bag daily then GWS would be fine. I swapped for a puma MF and haven't had a chance to do a multi day test yet. With down bags I am a paranoid freak about keeping things dry, I use a tent with a tub floor, full sized fly and good ventilation. I sleep on an inflatable pad and wear dry clothes to bed. I'm hoping to get better day to day performance with the MF.
Chris Peterson, how did your switch to MF workout? I have a theory about the WM use of GWS fabric in their sleeping bags. From doing a little reading GWS is porous like Gortex and those pours combined with heat allow vapor to escape. In this case, the user of the sleeping bag is producing tons of moisture and heat and it transfers through the material as designed and is trapped when it condenses on the other side.
I am concerned about Condensation building up in my Sleeping Bag. Do you have Recommendations on what to wear in the Sleeping Bag and is a Sleeping Bag Liner a good Option?
One thing I have noticed that helps somewhat with the stuffing of the GWS bags is to turn the bag inside out before stuffing. Considerably less work that way. Excellent video.
According to Western Mountaineering: "Contrary to popular belief, bags stored compressed can get their loft back as long as they were stored dry. NEVER store a bag wet. If you accidentally store a bag compressed, take it out and shake it vigorously. If the down is very compacted try putting it in the dryer on no heat with tennis balls. If this still does not fully get the loft back the down may be clumped due to moisture and dirt from use and is in need of washing." www.westernmountaineering.com/faqs/
My Antelope GWS will be arriving in 3 days. I'm going to try this idea of turning my Antelope GWS inside out although I must confess to a bias of stuffing the bag with the GWS exterior OUT to better protect the inside from possible punctures. I have ordered the Sea To Summit Medium size compression sack hoping it has enough capacity for my Antelope GWS size Small (5'6")
I like the way you presented this video than your other ones where you are sitting in the tent and mention at the start that you are a polar explorer. All-around much better presentation.
I especially like that you tell us the all important Hydrostatic Head pressure ratings. 12,000 for the Gore Windstopper is one of the major reasons I decided on GWS rather than the Microfiber on my Antelope. Warm Regards from Reno, Nevada
GWS is no longer an outer fabric on WM sleeping bags. At some point in time you might want to do a comparison between the new outer fabrics & GWS. The newer fabrics don't have the 15,000 hydrostatic head rating as GWS fabric.
I would have loved to hear about the real life difference of condensation accumulating inside the bags over a period of a few days. Also, how well does the fabric let the bags dry if you heat up your tent with a multifuel stove
@@martinclennon4640 he seems to have ran into the regular occurrence, where no matter which down bag, it will have the moisture evaporating from your body accumulate inside the bag over a longer period of time. If you are experienced, you can notice this after just a night or two out, if the bag is pushed to its limits. After a few days it is notable to anyone. This is why I am asking, if the outside shell fabric makes it harder to dry in field conditions. Shell fabric can keep outside moisture away, but if you are using a bag of this class, you will most likely not be in temperatures where that could be a problem. So I really do not see why manufacturers use a wpb shell fabric. Most of the moisture comes from your own body. I am assuming they do this since polar exprorers use vbl bags inside to combat the issue, and the wpb shell is just for lazy people that cba brushing the frost off the inner tent walls in the morning before turning their stove on Thing is, I have a breathable, non shell winterbag, but am getting a warmer bag now. I would need to know how much harder the wpb shell makes it to dry the down bag inside the tent, when heated with a multifuel stove. If the shell adds much fuel consuption/drying time, it may not be worth it to me. I am also leaning more towards a breathable fabric since it packs down easier and smaller, I mainly use a backpack in winter nowadays since it accommodates faster skiing and better maneuvering. With a bedding bag on your sled this is not something to consider. But the breathability sure is. I think if you are doing a lot of glamping under the stars, shell may be worth it. My most recent configuration is to add a wpb front baffle near the hood, and wpb inside the hood. I use pyramid shelters, so there can be some outside moisture issues in the foot end, so possibly that area get some, too. For the hood you usually leave enough space between you and the wall to turn around etc so outer of the hood is not that big of an issue. Cumulus also makes it a bit too large area with the wpb which also extends to the underside of the shoulders on the outside. So now I am making sure no area gets too encapsulated in the wpb just to make sure it is at least bearable to dry the bag out. In the polar winter we have up north in Finland, you do not have the luxury to dry the bag in the sun. Usually people here use a synthetic overbag, to shift the dew point to the outer bag away from the down insulation. But this easily gets heavy and bulky. The thicker the overbag, the wider range of temperatures it works in. Also easier to dry the synthetic, thinner bag.
Great video! I’m trying to decide on Kodiak GWS or MF for NY upstate winter backpacking. Worried about GWS breathability. Otherwise more inclined to get the GWS bag. What do you think?
Good stuff...the kind of in depth analysis one needs to make a good decision as to how and where to spend their hand earned money. These bags aren't cheep and many of us can't afford to buy 3 or 4
Very delicate. We own 2 Antelope sleep bags. Both have small rips in them. And difference in pack ability in case of 5 degree vs a -25 is the amount of down. 30 degree difference is a pretty big difference in down. Apples to oranges.
This was a great comparison Aaron, I think the only one on UA-cam that talks about all 3 fabrics. I heard that GWS can delaminate or at least earlier versions did, do you find yours has no such issues? And also have you ever washed your Puma? I read that washing it keeps the membrane more breathable and longer lasting but the idea of washing expensive bag is unnerving so if you washed your bags would be a cool video to make with some tips!
Great demo. In my case I bought the Alpinlite 20 degree bag. I got it when my oldest son was doing boy scouts and it has covered me for almost anything and everything that I could imagine although for the freezing / winter campouts it was definitely cold. Not sure how I got through but probably from wearing extra clothes, etc in the bag. I've been looking at the Puma -25 degree bag. On the alpinlite I've always been worried about water and wear, but usually not backpacking or have a pack to keep it dry. Thoughts on how cold of a bag to get and between the two? e.g. puma mf or puma windstopper?
I have found the GWS allows the moisture to travel through. I do have to air out the sleeping bag in the morning to reduce moisture but I've found that with any fabric or bag I've ever owned.
@@ALinsdau Where I think this comparison gets really interesting is at the foot end. If one is tall and using a tent with a sloping rear, such as the Hilleberg Nammatj, condensation might accumulate where the foot end of the sleeping bag touches the walls of the tent. In this case I assume the Gore Windstopper does a better job of keeping the moisture away from the down inside the bag.
Great video! Very helpful. Question. For winter car camping on Astronomy fields down to 15 degrees and dry air which fabric would be the most comfortable as far as managing water vapor?
Great review. Thank you for the information. Question - While sleeping in a tent, would the Microfibre be more efficient allowing the body moisture to escape? With the GWS being so water resistant, is condensation inside the bag an issue?
The MF does let out moisture faster in my experience. Bag condensation is an issue to be sure - dry it out every morning using this technique: ua-cam.com/video/vtF9A8whji0/v-deo.html
Another great video, thx for sharing. I've been looking to upgrade from my Marmot Sawtooth(6.6) to a MF Bager (6.6size). Looking for a little more elbow room and I'm tired of the zipper constantly snagging. I came across a GWS model on sale cheaper than MF but was hesitant to buy it because of breathability(not worried about packability) I'm in a tent 95% of my camps. Any tips or suggestions would be much appreciated.
@@ALinsdau is the GWS fabric used in the interior of the bag and if so does it act as a kind of a vapor barrier? you said that gws doesn't packdown as good as mf. what would you say it is a 10,15 20% increase in pack size volume? thanks for your help
Hi. Thank you for your very informative content. Do you have any experience with sleeping bags made of the Pertex Shield fabric? I see that Feathered Friends use it, Marmot, and others too. I myself am looking at the WM Kodiak 0° Microfiber (possibly with overfill) or Marmot COL -20° (heavier, lesser quality fill, Pertex, but a couple hundred $ less than Kodiak when on sale).
after watching several of your videos becuase Im shoping for a new winter bag, and I under stand you get what you pay for, when I went shopping I found several 0, degree bags, some for as little as $49............why is that suspect in my mind
Good question! I just made a video on this very topic: How to choose the right sleeping bag: 15 factors to consider ua-cam.com/video/reeC6ZUQbxk/v-deo.html
Your’e answering all the right questions. Love it.
Glad you think so!
The water tests were very informative and helpful. Thank you.
Thank you!
I had trouble with a GWS puma accumulating condensation and losing loft on a 10 day trip I did in Patagonia last year. I was able to hang it to dry twice which helped increase the loft again but after a few nights it would sag and was a cold sleeper. The GWS is designed for very cold and very dry situations like the northern rockies in winter. The GWS can keep outside water out but it has big problems letting body condensation breathe through it. If the humidity gradient isn't extreme between inside and outside air, then condensation will accumulate if you are using the bag several nights in a row. If you have the luxury of a warm, dry area to air out your bag daily then GWS would be fine. I swapped for a puma MF and haven't had a chance to do a multi day test yet. With down bags I am a paranoid freak about keeping things dry, I use a tent with a tub floor, full sized fly and good ventilation. I sleep on an inflatable pad and wear dry clothes to bed. I'm hoping to get better day to day performance with the MF.
How to Dry Your Sleeping Bag Backpacking Camping Hiking Climbing: ua-cam.com/video/QywJjsvVzUI/v-deo.html
Chris Peterson, how did your switch to MF workout? I have a theory about the WM use of GWS fabric in their sleeping bags. From doing a little reading GWS is porous like Gortex and those pours combined with heat allow vapor to escape. In this case, the user of the sleeping bag is producing tons of moisture and heat and it transfers through the material as designed and is trapped when it condenses on the other side.
I am concerned about Condensation building up in my Sleeping Bag. Do you have Recommendations on what to wear in the Sleeping Bag and is a Sleeping Bag Liner a good Option?
Thanks for this, I am looking to buy either a Kodiak MF or Puma GWS for winter use in Norway, very helpful!
Glad it was helpful!
One thing I have noticed that helps somewhat with the stuffing of the GWS bags is to turn the bag inside out before stuffing. Considerably less work that way.
Excellent video.
According to Western Mountaineering:
"Contrary to popular belief, bags stored compressed can get their loft back as long as they were stored dry. NEVER store a bag wet. If you accidentally store a bag compressed, take it out and shake it vigorously. If the down is very compacted try putting it in the dryer on no heat with tennis balls. If this still does not fully get the loft back the down may be clumped due to moisture and dirt from use and is in need of washing."
www.westernmountaineering.com/faqs/
My Antelope GWS will be arriving in 3 days.
I'm going to try this idea of turning my Antelope GWS inside out although I must confess to a bias of stuffing the bag with the GWS exterior OUT to better protect the inside from possible punctures.
I have ordered the Sea To Summit Medium size compression sack hoping it has enough capacity for my Antelope GWS size Small (5'6")
I like the way you presented this video than your other ones where you are sitting in the tent and mention at the start that you are a polar explorer. All-around much better presentation.
Good to note, thank you.
How does Western Mountainering measure up against Feathered Friends?
I especially like that you tell us the all important Hydrostatic Head pressure ratings. 12,000 for the Gore Windstopper is one of the major reasons I decided on GWS rather than the Microfiber on my Antelope.
Warm Regards from Reno, Nevada
Good points, thanks for watching!
GWS is no longer an outer fabric on WM sleeping bags. At some point in time you might want to do a comparison between the new outer fabrics & GWS. The newer fabrics don't have the 15,000 hydrostatic head rating as GWS fabric.
I would have loved to hear about the real life difference of condensation accumulating inside the bags over a period of a few days. Also, how well does the fabric let the bags dry if you heat up your tent with a multifuel stove
Teemu did you hear if GWS helps prevent "condensation accumulating inside the bags"?
see Chris Peterson's reply below
@@martinclennon4640 he seems to have ran into the regular occurrence, where no matter which down bag, it will have the moisture evaporating from your body accumulate inside the bag over a longer period of time. If you are experienced, you can notice this after just a night or two out, if the bag is pushed to its limits. After a few days it is notable to anyone.
This is why I am asking, if the outside shell fabric makes it harder to dry in field conditions.
Shell fabric can keep outside moisture away, but if you are using a bag of this class, you will most likely not be in temperatures where that could be a problem. So I really do not see why manufacturers use a wpb shell fabric. Most of the moisture comes from your own body. I am assuming they do this since polar exprorers use vbl bags inside to combat the issue, and the wpb shell is just for lazy people that cba brushing the frost off the inner tent walls in the morning before turning their stove on
Thing is, I have a breathable, non shell winterbag, but am getting a warmer bag now. I would need to know how much harder the wpb shell makes it to dry the down bag inside the tent, when heated with a multifuel stove. If the shell adds much fuel consuption/drying time, it may not be worth it to me. I am also leaning more towards a breathable fabric since it packs down easier and smaller, I mainly use a backpack in winter nowadays since it accommodates faster skiing and better maneuvering. With a bedding bag on your sled this is not something to consider. But the breathability sure is. I think if you are doing a lot of glamping under the stars, shell may be worth it.
My most recent configuration is to add a wpb front baffle near the hood, and wpb inside the hood. I use pyramid shelters, so there can be some outside moisture issues in the foot end, so possibly that area get some, too. For the hood you usually leave enough space between you and the wall to turn around etc so outer of the hood is not that big of an issue. Cumulus also makes it a bit too large area with the wpb which also extends to the underside of the shoulders on the outside. So now I am making sure no area gets too encapsulated in the wpb just to make sure it is at least bearable to dry the bag out.
In the polar winter we have up north in Finland, you do not have the luxury to dry the bag in the sun. Usually people here use a synthetic overbag, to shift the dew point to the outer bag away from the down insulation. But this easily gets heavy and bulky. The thicker the overbag, the wider range of temperatures it works in. Also easier to dry the synthetic, thinner bag.
@@Teemu_Hartikainen thank you so much for the reply I learned a great deal from your post. I saved the reply to my notes.
Great video! I’m trying to decide on Kodiak GWS or MF for NY upstate winter backpacking. Worried about GWS breathability. Otherwise more inclined to get the GWS bag. What do you think?
Here's a video with some thoughts on your question: ua-cam.com/video/EwWiKEXYHSw/v-deo.html
@@ALinsdau Thanks for the reply but the video is private.
Great review 👍🏻 didn’t realize there were so many factors to choose from 😎🥾🏕
Thanks! 👍
perfectly demonstrated buddy. thanks! i did subscribe y channel. have a great Sunday
Thanks for watching!
Good stuff...the kind of in depth analysis one needs to make a good decision as to how and where to spend their hand earned money. These bags aren't cheep and many of us can't afford to buy 3 or 4
They're pretty expensive to be sure.
Very delicate. We own 2 Antelope sleep bags. Both have small rips in them. And difference in pack ability in case of 5 degree vs a -25 is the amount of down. 30 degree difference is a pretty big difference in down. Apples to oranges.
Good point. I've found the 20-30 degree step jump is good enough for what I've done.
This was a great comparison Aaron, I think the only one on UA-cam that talks about all 3 fabrics. I heard that GWS can delaminate or at least earlier versions did, do you find yours has no such issues? And also have you ever washed your Puma? I read that washing it keeps the membrane more breathable and longer lasting but the idea of washing expensive bag is unnerving so if you washed your bags would be a cool video to make with some tips!
I haven’t had any delamination issues. In face the bags have held up far better than expected.
I had the Puma professionally washed at A16 in San Diego. Now that they’re closed, I’ll have to find another source or do it myself.
Excellent video!!
Thanks for watching & subscribing!
Great video once again ! Do you also use bivy bags ? From what I understand the GWS is like an integrated bivy bag
I haven't used a bivy bag in a long time. I use tarps in most locations, even in the lighter winters of California.
Great demo. In my case I bought the Alpinlite 20 degree bag. I got it when my oldest son was doing boy scouts and it has covered me for almost anything and everything that I could imagine although for the freezing / winter campouts it was definitely cold. Not sure how I got through but probably from wearing extra clothes, etc in the bag. I've been looking at the Puma -25 degree bag. On the alpinlite I've always been worried about water and wear, but usually not backpacking or have a pack to keep it dry. Thoughts on how cold of a bag to get and between the two? e.g. puma mf or puma windstopper?
I'd get the GWS. I treat it as my expedition bag, so I want a tougher fabric.
This is great been looking at lynx and bisons
I just made a video on sleeping bag shopping:
How to choose the right sleeping bag: 15 factors to consider
ua-cam.com/video/reeC6ZUQbxk/v-deo.html
If you are not using a VBL would the GWS sleeping bag trap in the moisture that comes from your body?
I have found the GWS allows the moisture to travel through. I do have to air out the sleeping bag in the morning to reduce moisture but I've found that with any fabric or bag I've ever owned.
@ALinsdau did u notice difference in breathability between two fabrics?
@@ALinsdau Where I think this comparison gets really interesting is at the foot end. If one is tall and using a tent with a sloping rear, such as the Hilleberg Nammatj, condensation might accumulate where the foot end of the sleeping bag touches the walls of the tent. In this case I assume the Gore Windstopper does a better job of keeping the moisture away from the down inside the bag.
Thanks much BTW is GWS the old version of Gore-Tex Infinium? Or??
Could be, couldn't tell you off hand.
Great video! Very helpful. Question. For winter car camping on Astronomy fields down to 15 degrees and dry air which fabric would be the most comfortable as far as managing water vapor?
Microfiber is my favorite for that when it's dry.
@@ALinsdau Thank you!!
Is there a product to spray or treat the fabric to make it more water resistant ???
Yes, there are spray on treatments but you need to be careful they don't gum up the down.
Great review. Thank you for the information. Question - While sleeping in a tent, would the Microfibre be more efficient allowing the body moisture to escape? With the GWS being so water resistant, is condensation inside the bag an issue?
The MF does let out moisture faster in my experience. Bag condensation is an issue to be sure - dry it out every morning using this technique:
ua-cam.com/video/vtF9A8whji0/v-deo.html
@@ALinsdau Thanks, I appreciate your feedback and the video reviews of the WM bags are great. I am putting in my order today.
@@ALinsdau I am interested in this drying out technique, please let us know when the video becomes shared.
Another great video, thx for sharing.
I've been looking to upgrade from my Marmot Sawtooth(6.6) to a MF Bager (6.6size).
Looking for a little more elbow room and I'm tired of the zipper constantly snagging.
I came across a GWS model on sale cheaper than MF but was hesitant to buy it because of breathability(not worried about packability)
I'm in a tent 95% of my camps.
Any tips or suggestions would be much appreciated.
The GWS breaths great. It’ll suffer less zipper snags for sure.
@@ALinsdau is the GWS fabric used in the interior of the bag and if so does it act as a kind of a vapor barrier? you said that gws doesn't packdown as good as mf. what would you say it is a 10,15 20% increase in pack size volume? thanks for your help
Hi. Thank you for your very informative content. Do you have any experience with sleeping bags made of the Pertex Shield fabric? I see that Feathered Friends use it, Marmot, and others too. I myself am looking at the WM Kodiak 0° Microfiber (possibly with overfill) or Marmot COL -20° (heavier, lesser quality fill, Pertex, but a couple hundred $ less than Kodiak when on sale).
I don't. If I find a bag with Pertex, I'll review it.
Basically, Western Mountaineering- the best
They're certainly very good and highly regarded.
Aaron, what's the compression sack size you use for your antelope MF? Thank you
I use medium. I have to jam it in there a bit but the large is too large.
after watching several of your videos becuase Im shoping for a new winter bag, and I under stand you get what you pay for, when I went shopping I found several 0, degree bags, some for as little as $49............why is that suspect in my mind
Good question! I just made a video on this very topic:
How to choose the right sleeping bag: 15 factors to consider
ua-cam.com/video/reeC6ZUQbxk/v-deo.html
Einziges Manko - der GWS-Schlafsackstoff knistert wie eine Plastiktüte, ist gerade nächtens etwas laut.
True, the GWS is not silent.