The Tyranny of Plot: Why Books Don't Always Need Stories
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2021
- I talk about why I tend towards books that privilege atmosphere above plot and give my top three recommendations.
Some Texts Referenced:
The Paris Notebooks (2017) by Quentin S. Crisp
Preface to The N* of the Narcissus (1897) by Joseph Conrad
Link to Sherds Podcast:
www.holdfastnetwork.com/sherds...
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1ieoXQz...
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...
Interview with Quentin S. Crisp:
www.holdfastnetwork.com/sherds...
Episode on One Moonlit Night:
www.holdfastnetwork.com/sherds...
Support me here: ko-fi.com/sherdstube
Thanks for watching! - Розваги
Welcome! Glad you're on here man. Great work.
First comments can’t get better than this.
Thanks, man! You're at least partly to blame ;)
You brought me here. Thanks man.
Thanks Cliff you brought me here, this first video I just watched from SherdsTube is awesome -- and thanks SherdsTube !
my dude why are you such a legend
I'm reading The Rings of Saturn now because of your discussion and I love it. I don't know if you remember a particular episode - the narrator visits his friend Michael. He tells the reader at great length about the memoir that Michael wrote. But as the narrator is telling us about the memoir it becomes difficult to remember that the narrator is telling someone else' story - not his own - because the voices of the narrator and Michael becomes so intertwined. Then I realized that's exactly what happens when we read. We slip into the book and it becomes our story even though it is a fiction that was written by someone else.
Finally got round to reading rings of saturn. Its prose is absolutely mesmeric.
Better than food brought me here! Looking forward to the content.
Thanks for stopping by!
Better than food brought me here. Glad I did!!
Glad to have you!
“We must go to war out of boredom”. I do love that Quentin S Crisp quote.
As a follower of Sherds podcast which has introduced me to so many great novels, I really enjoyed this visual essay. It’s a beautifully put together video: from soundtrack, to visuals, and especially to the thoughtful essay.
I would add Street of Crocodiles to the list. A novel where as a reader I just want to remain in its pages, enveloped by its atmosphere, lost in the beautiful thickets of poetic prose, under the spell of the heightened language and Schulz’ alchemical transformation of his childhood memories.
Yes, I love this quote, too. It put into words what I was feeling, but unable to formulate properly.
Really glad you enjoyed it.
Absolutely! Schulz very nearly made the list. You put it very beautifully - there is something "alchemical" about his prose.
thank you dear universe for finding this channel.
Thank you!
I don’t know who you are, I just now found your channel, but that was terrific. Truly. You expressed that and presented it beautifully.
That's enormously kind of you to say. Thank you. I'm very glad you found the channel!
Thank you so very much for introducing me to W.G. Sebald. I just finished 'Austerlitz' and I have his other three novels on order. Your videos are very impressive.
My pleasure. Very pleased you enjoyed Sebald. Thanks for the kind words.
What a piece of work this is! You talk about Prose while creating a sort of visual delight that vacillates at the boundary of prose and poetry itself. Such production is very rare and thoroughly original. Intentional or unintentional as it might be, this seems to be an attempt to look at how we talk about books in this kind of platform in a very different light.
I would say, the remembrance of things past by Proust would fit into this category, it was groundbreaking in its rebellion against the plot, in its trying to use written words to penetrate a variety of sensory experiences and impressions, I feel.
Thanks for saying such nice things.
This person really nails what I thought on discovering the Sherd
Yes!! Very well put.
Better Than Food sent me here, and he's reviewed lots of books that'd qualify as atmospheric and plotless--"Agua Viva" by Clarice Lispector comes to mind.
Plot is predicated on the notion that we, as people, can change, quickly and directly from exterior events. That's really the key to almost all stories, but the more you look at it, it's probably not true. The progress, improvements, enlightenment we achieve usually happens slowly, and is an inward journey.
But, even if the change that the heroes of plot-driven novels undergo is unrealistic, I think there's still a point in having it. No one ever complained about a book having a great plot, and people are more likely to keep reading. And plot doesn't sacrifice atmosphere or aesthetic merit. Of course, the typical plot of a thriller won't leave much room for introspective philosophical scenes, but still, most of the "great books" have some plot, however scattered or faint. I think fiction helps to deliver messages in a powerful way that people will remember, as opposed to pontificating on them in some philosophical essay. As the saying goes, "the customer is always right," so if the readers want a good plot, the vast majority of writers will try to give them that, along with the art.
Thanks for this thoughtful comment. It's very much appreciated. I hope I didn't come across as wanting to abolish plot altogether - I was trying to suggest, rather, that we are culturally fixated upon it and that there is enormous value in other aspects of art. I do enjoy some plot-driven fiction quite a bit. I also think that human perception as well as our ideas about the self are largely conditioned by our tendency to find meaning in narratives of whatever kind.
Where I disagree with you, perhaps, is in the claim that "the customer is always right". I think that often we don't know what we're capable of being moved by until it suddenly exists.
Great video. I found this through Chris Via’s Instagram. I definitely prefer some plot in fiction because I find it can connect a lot of the investigation and create some anticipation, but I thought the points you make here are interesting and well expressed, especially how people view their lives as plots instead of experiences and atmospheres.
Connecting these literary observations to real life is what it’s all about, in my opinion. Good job, and great production value too 😁
Thanks for the kind words. Very much appreciated. I recently saw your video on 'America and the Cult of the Cactus Boots' and thoroughly enjoyed it. Great stuff!
Sure, there can be a lot of value in a good plot. It's certainly a very skilful thing for a writer to achieve, too. I do also read a fair amount of plot-driven fiction, but I suppose I was trying to suggest that we're sort a bit culturally fixated on it and that there are other things to look for in literature.
@@SherdsTube oh nice, thanks for watching it! The source material did all the heavy lifting.
That most definitely came through in your video. I’m frustrated by aspects of that too, it conditions the audience not to have the patience for something more experimental and exploratory.
I look forward to more videos from this channel!
I’d include Danilo Kis’ Garden, Ashes, Italo Calvino’s Invisible Cities, and William H. Gaddis’ The Tunnel. Love Rings of Saturn. What a delight this video was.
Ooh, Robbe-Grillet as well.
Thanks so much for the support! Yes, I must get to Kiš soon! Gosh, so many people have so many wonderful suggestions - my list of books to read just grows and grows. :)
Back for a rewatch
This emphasis on atmosphere is all about art, my visual art at least and anything I like. You’re are right it’s connected to the mainstream way of living …the plot of our lives.
Great video, good ideas! I would add Pessoas ”Book of Disquiet” to the list of books where ambience is the essential element.
Yes, I must get to this soon!
Better Than Food recommended this channel. Spot on. Thanks for this elegant essay.
Thanks ever so much!
What is interesting to me is that it seems other cultures might have a more intuitive approach to this "plotlessness" in their storytelling than most Western works - many Japanese classics for example (Soseki and Kawabata come to mind, and Ozu is a smiliar example in film-making).
This is a really insightful video. Of the works you feature, I’ve only read “The Rings of Saturn”, but that book alone provides considerable validation of your argument. For me, the same criteria can be applied to cinema, as I find films like those of Andrei Tarkovsky to be much more compelling than plot-driven movies that are so often instantly forgettable once the show is over.
Thanks, Jeff! Yes, I absolutely agree about Tarkovsky.
Thank you for this. I have never liked plots in books, preferring the texture and intricate details of prose. I'm pleased to know I'm not the only one.
Great essay. You deserve more views. Greetings from Brazil
Thanks so much for saying so. :)
Wonderful video, artfully done! The first book that came to mind, is Virginia Woolf's "To The Lighthouse"--a personal favorite. Also love Seabald's "Rings of Saturn," but have yet to check out the other books you discuss, but I will. Much Thanks!
Thanks for the kind words.
One more brought by mister Clifford Lee Sargent. Really liked the video and the way you calmly speak. Subscribed and can't wait for the next one.
Your video editing is great. That was both soothing and yet informative. For me, plot is the least of the considerations to which I lend weight when thinking of a novel. Often in fact, plot can intrude on other elements, to the detriment of the work as a whole. Novels that I've read recently that have successfully subverted expectations of plot include A Girl Is a Half-formed Thing by Eimar McBride, The Long Take by Robin Robertson and Flauberts Parrot by Julian Barnes. Keep up the excellent content!
Thanks for the kind words and the recommendations. Of the books you mention, I've only read the Barnes. I recall enjoying it. Love the original Flaubert story, though.
Cool to see you doing a UA-cam channel now too. The video was great. I really need to read the rest of Rings of Saturn, I keep starting it and never getting through it
Thanks very much! I hope you finish it sometime - it's really worth it.
“I’m certainly guilty of this at times, but it also strikes me that many people I talk to, think in very goal oriented ways about their own lives. They ask themselves what they have achieved by a certain age, compare this to the achievements of others, or claim that by a certain age they want a house, a dream job, or whatever it might be.
It seems that fewer people talk about what they want to have experienced in life. About the emotional awareness they want to achieve, or the moods of transcendence they aspire to enter. But this is how many of us, from our earliest days, have been taught to live and to think. To trace in linear terms, the plot of our lives.”
I've thought about this idea a lot, so to have it so beautifully expressed was such a treat! I was expecting a literary rant, and instead got a wonderful, poetic video that really explored the main idea. Loved it, thank you!
Thanks for these extraordinarily kind words.
I have discovered you by accident and you are tremendous! I agree with you entirely, about atmosphere and plot. I got damn tired on the old Book Country of being asked "When is something going to happen?" I'll be back to hear more of what you have to say.
Thanks for the kind words! Will be glad to have you back :)
Excellent video! It's been a couple of years since I read it but Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino probably fits here.
Thank you! I've read some Calvino, but not that one. Must correct this soon.
A beautifully made video. I never thought about how a goal-oriented view of life is reflected in plot-focused stories and vice versa. Makes a lot of sense.
"The Magic Mountain" by Thomas Mann came to mind as a story with the atmosphere of a certain place as it's focus.
Thanks so much. It's funny you should mention 'The Magic Mountain' - I just finished reading it for the second time. I doubt it will be the last.
@@SherdsTube Haha, I hope to reread it also a few more times. Besides other things it changed the way I see time, which is no small feat.
Great to see you on UA-cam love the Shards podcasts. Chasing Homer
by László Krasznahorkai, Szilveszter Miklós Oct
Thank you! I'll check out your recommendation.
I found a note in the novel with an email address. It says it will give me access to music related to the book. Did you find anything similar? Is that Szilveszter Miklós music? I haven’t started reading yet, the book looks like some fancy art fanzine.
You said ambiance? One book came to my mind immediately : "The desert of the Tartars" of D. Buzzati. Great video, thanks for the video and welcome!
Yes! Such a beautiful book. It's one of my favourites.
I'm glad to know that Sherds Podcast now has a video channel! I'm still catching up with old episodes of the podcast, but so far have bought several books because of it: stories of Vernon Lee, Machen's The Hill of Dreams, Pedro Páramo, and the M. Levine translation of the stories of Bruno Schulz (which I'm currently reading, interleaving it with Thomas Wolfe's first epic, O Lost) come to mind.
A book that I find quite magnificent because of its atmosphere-a castle in the Hungarian countryside, removed from the horrors of war, where two old men, former friends in the waning years of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, meet after a lapse of 41 years-is Embers by Sándor Márai. The language, in the translation by the late Carol Brown Janeway, is like burnished bronze.
Thanks so much for listening, Donald. Hope you're enjoying the Schulz in Levine's translation. I think I might even prefer it.
'Embers' is one I must go back to. I've read it, but it didn't have an enormous impact on me. I should probably give it another try as it's been about a decade.
Your description of Dukla (which I have not read, but plan to upon your recommendation) reminds me of In the Heart of the Heart of the Country by William Gass. Totally agree with your short review of the Rings of Saturn. I'm now a subscriber. Thank you.
Hope you get something out of it. I'll try the Gass book when I can get hold of it. Thanks for subscribing!
@@SherdsTube Actually, anything by Gass I am sure you would enjoy.
'One day I will write about this place' by Binyavanga Wainaina. Really enjoyed this video, thanks!
Thanks so much, Dominika. Just looked up the book you mentioned. Sounds fascinating.
I tend to read plot-based works more often, but I nonetheless agree with the premise of your video. Literature can be interesting and stunning without a clear plot and people who are obsessed with spoilers are annoying, to say the least.
I have usually come across ambiental, meditative works in film, but I have read at least one book of this kind, as far as I can remember. It was Natsume Soseki's "Kusamakura", which I absolutely loved.
Great video, by the way!
Thanks so much. Yes, others have mentioned that particular Soseki book as a good candidate. I've really enjoyed some of his other novels, but haven't tried this one yet.
The first thing that came of to my mind after reading the title: Underworld. A fantastic book.
Funnily enough, I just picked it up a couple of weeks ago. I'll try to make time for it soon.
Great stuff, looking forward to the next videos. The book that first came to mind when thinking about the unimportance of plot, was Nadie nada nunca, by Juan José Saer. I do not know if this book has been translated to English, a superficial search did not produce any results. In this novel, an apparent mystery around the unexplained killing of several horses by someone around the beaches of Argentina is an excuse to write about time, perception, among other things.
Thank you! I'll look out for this book if it gets translated. Sounds very intriguing.
I’ve been looking for this one and have yet to find it. Great suggestion!
Insightful and thought provoking Video ...i am a regular listener of the podcast - very happy to see this vlog. I would recommend English translations of Hindi writer Nirmal Verma’s works. He is one of our major writers and while reading him - we normally forget about the immediacy of plot. For pages in end, nothing really happens - in the worldly ways I mean. Beautiful meditative writing ...his novels ‘days of longing’ and ‘the red tin roof’ can be wonderful to start from. ( I have read the originals in Hindi). Also, I guess, lot of Clarice Lispector’s writing can be considered in this category...
Thanks so much, Priyanka. I'd be very interested to read Nirmal Verma's books. On a brief search, the English translations don't seem that easy to come by, but I will keep trying. Thanks for the recommendation.
I wasn't that wild about my first encounter with Clarice Lispector's work, but probably I just need to give her more time - I will soon!
Yup, subscribed
A wonderful first video, and great companion to the podcast. Of books I've recently read, I think di Benedetto's Zama is an effective exercise in atmosphere over plot, and Daša Drndić's EEG has the same kind of thematic propulsion that Rings of Saturn has.
Thank you! Great, I'll be checking these out. I've got a bit of a thing for writing from the Balkans, too, so I'm particularly intrigued by the second book.
I picked up Daša Drndić's EEG during a trip to my favourite bookshop in Kraków a couple of days ago. Thanks for the recommendation. Looking forward to trying it.
@@SherdsTube Wonderful! I hope you enjoy it
@@SherdsTube I don't suppose I could induce you to share the name of that bookshop?
@@iamthelabhras It's called Massolit.
I found an essay by Quentin S. Crisp (I think) on gothic literature while doing research for an essay on Invention of Morel and Island of Dr. Moreau back in 2008, when I was a freshman in college.
Oh, I wonder which essay this is. Let me know if you track it down.
Great video!
I think about "Life: A user's manual" by Perec, witch for me is about tension between following engaging plot and absurdly obssesive description of reality.
Also Nicolas Bouvier books, esspecialy "The Scorpion-Fish" where he picture sweaty mood of Sri Lanka.
Yeah, it's about time I read Nicolas Bouvier. Heard lots about him, but haven't tried him yet.
@@SherdsTube I just realise that my firs Bouviers book was "The Way of the World" that i borrow from Stasiuks library when I was pasturing his sheeps :)
It was quite kinky to read this copy as there was a lot of side notes he made
@@goodboycooperative9974 How come you never mentioned this phase of your life as Stasiuk's chief shepherd? It sounds amazing.
@@SherdsTube oh! It was only 3 days of duty and very little flock
Better than food sent me here, love it, but now ADORE that you have Caradoc Pritchard’s book 🙌
You wouldn’t know I was a Welshman 🏴 😆
Haha! Oh, it's just a marvellous book, isn't it? Deserves to be recognised in the front rank of 20th-century literature.
Fabulous video and thank you!
For me, it’s almost like plot is like an added bonus in a great book.
I hope to seek out ‘Rings of Saturn’ very soon...
I noticed ‘The Tunnel’ on your shelf! It is a real favorite of mine. Have you read it and if so I’d love to hear your quick thoughts?!
Take care
Thanks a lot! I'm afraid I haven't yet read 'The Tunnel'. It's waiting patiently for me, though.
engaging!
Have you read All the names by Saramago? It changed me as a reader and the ambiance is great!
Just discovered you thanks to Better than food, I’ll check the podcast for sure
I haven't read that one, but I'll look into it. Better Than Food has brought so many people - it's amazing!
I'm rereading "The Flanders Road" by Claude Simon. I’d really like to know what you think of that novel. Thanks.
By the way, related to Sebald, we killed ONLY a hundred thousand people in Jasenovac.
Robert Walser, Lobo Antunes, Mayröcker, Bruno Schulz, Claude Simon, Wolfgang Hilbig, Peter Kurzeck (can you read German?, your Kafka books suggested that you do), Nádas, Beckett, Barthelme, Murnane, Félisberto Hernández, Handke (of the 70's), Blanchot, Herta Müller, Woolf, Genet, Josef Winkler, Tor Ulven, R. Roussel ... I read all those authors because they write more or less plotless and one can really alter one's view of the world for a moment while reading their books. So I'm looking forward to your recommendations and next videos.
Wow, thanks for all these recommendations. That's great. I'm familiar with many of them, but I'll look into those I don't know. Yes, I read German. I read it slowly and rather inexpertly, though.
@@SherdsTube I've just discovered your Podcasts and am listening to the Tarjei Vesaas episode which really makes me want to read The Birds. It made me think of two more favorites of mine - Max Blecher's Adventures in Immediate Irreality and Sasha Sokolov's School for Fools. Oh, and Ror Wolf, read him, in German that is - the greatest nonsensical stories made of the most beautiful sounding sentences I know of in the German language. OK, enough.
You might already know about it, but Soseki Natsume's brilliant work Kusamakura (Grass pillow) is exactly what you're describing. I've found that it stuck with me despite its brevity and lack of plot.
I really must read this. It's the book that's come up most in the responses to this video. Love Soseki, but haven't read this particular one.
The adult in the room has arrived ! at last......
Haha not sure about that, but thanks! ;)
Fantastic video. It’s wonderful to come across another earnest admirer of Rings of Saturn. Do you compose the soundtracks to your videos yourself?
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I compose, perform and record all the music on the videos myself, with the exception of one piece on my Lampedusa video.
@@SherdsTube I'd love to learn about your rig if you're ever willing to share.
I wonder whether historical fiction based on real events actually lends itself quite well to this atmospheric approach. Given that spoilers can’t really exist with fiction based on things that have already happened, perhaps real-life-based historical fiction would be better off taking the atmospheric approach? What say you, @SherdsTube?
Yeah, it's an interesting point, for sure. I've been thinking about it. In one sense, writing about events whose outcome is already known might allow a writer to dispense with concerns about plot and leave space to concentrate on other things. On the other hand I wonder if knowledge of the outcome in fact matters at all. In some ways, we go into most stories knowing - in however vague a sense - what the outcome is likely to be. I think it's really a matter of whether or not a writer constructs a work of fiction in a way that encourages the reader to fixate upon plot.
Another thing this makes me think of is adaptations of books for the screen. Knowing the source material might cause the viewer to concentrate on elements unrelated to plot, but I think it's largely a case of the director's treatment of it. It would be interesting to compare radically different adaptations of the same source text in order to think about this.
Can you think of examples of historical fiction that have taken a more atmospheric approach?
Yeah we need more real content on here. This is great. This is what saves the world!
Thanks so much!
Juan Rulfo
Yeah, he's great! We covered Pedro Páramo on Sherds Podcast a little while ago, if you fancy listening: www.holdfastnetwork.com/sherdspodcast/5/8/2020/32-pedro-pramo-by-juan-rulfo
Malicroix by Henri Bosco. Doesn’t get close to Sebald, but it does have something going on.
This is new to me. Thanks for the recommendation.
Likewise - hadn’t heard of the other ones you mentioned, but I will look into them for sure. Cheers.
Whats the music playing from the start?
I composed all the music in the video. It's just a little bit of piano I recorded.
@@SherdsTube Man of multiple talents, good for you sir!
Daw-key Archive, the L is silent.
Doesn't matter, just fyi
The tyranny of plot is more easily avoided in nonfiction (but sometimes at a sacrifice).
You would probably like Tim Robinson's Stones of Aran and Connemara Trilogy. Remarkable by any standards.
Thanks. Didn't realise. I'll try to check those out.
Amazing discussion! I think moby dick in a way really fits as one of those books. Of course, its a plot, but just like shakespeares plays, its secondary or even less prioritized than that. In that book, everything really revolves around form and character.
Thanks so much. Oh, I completely agree. Moby-Dick shines most spectacularly in its digressions, doesn't it?
@@SherdsTube 100% its a novel tha, just like don Quijote really trancends all of the previous markers for a "typical" novel. It is brilliant on so many levels. Especially, though i know that people find it frustrating, the chapters like the whale-encyclopedia and "about the colour white" are one of the best ones. The plot is really good too, but it is not even close to being the best stuff in that book. Btw, been listening to u on spotify too, amazing work!
Oh boy, yeah, 'The Whiteness of the Whale' is pretty much the pinnacle (or should I say the main-mast?) of that book for me. Thanks so much for listening!
@@SherdsTube I read it in swedish so didnt know the english translation in exact. But oh man, gonna go read it right now. Not even joking dude! haha
Speak, Silence In Search of W. G. Sebald By: Carole Angier
Looking forward to it.
Oh, wait, I thought I recognized your voice! You did the podcast on Jahnn's The Ship!
Yeah, that's me! Thanks for listening. Really enjoyed that very peculiar book.
@@SherdsTube Have you read Die Nacht aus Blei (The Night of Lead)?
No, I haven't yet. Worth a look?
Yes, it's in the collection The Living are Few, The Dead are Many along with some other short stories. I actually translated Die Nacht aus Blei for the hell of it in 1999 before I found out about Malcolm Green's first Atlas edition.
Prowadzisz świetny kanał na YT. Mam nadzieje, że podoba Ci się w Polsce. Pozdrawiam!