Self-bailing packrafts for whitewater
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- In this video Max advocates very passionately for self-bailing packrafts and debunks some myths going around about them.
Feel free to add your thoughts and get the conversation started !
According to Max, self-bailing packrafts are awesome for whitewater because :
-They are safer because they can be re-flipped and re-entered while in the current,
-They are super easy to hop on and off which is a huge advantage on big rapids with small eddies,
-They are easier to set-up than whitewater deck packrafts,
-They are lighter (don't have a skirt and a deck !),
-They keep you cool on a hot day,
Bonus point : they aren't cold and do not fill with water ! How cool is that ! - Спорт
I just ordered the Anfibio TXLB+ self-bailer. Can't wait to try it out.
Self-bailers may be easier to re-enter, but I have watched many packrafters re-enter decked whitewater boats in Class III and IV water. In Alaska, where Alpacka packrafts were born, decked boats are much drier warmer on glacial rivers and you rarely see self-bailers on the whitewater runs. Keeping cool on a hot day is rarely an issue here. Getting doused in icy water and then exposed to winds, even wearing a drysuit, is much less comfortable than being having your legs and lower torso tucked comfortably in a decked packraft.
Nice one Max! Lots of great points and obviously I completely agree with you. So many times people focus on the negatives of self-bailers, so its nice to see the advantages being pushed. You have mentioned it elsewhere :) but I don't think you made a big point of it here - self-bailers are the perfect whitewater rescue tool (for lowering/raising to a stationary victim, for angled ziplines when you need to get someone across a river and for lashing multiple boats together to make a large raft which can then carry additional people). They are also great when you need to 'line a rapid'. This is where you decide that it is easier to attach a rope to your boat and float it down a rapid whilst you walk along the river edge. This can be a lot more efficient in 'some' situations than portaging (carrying around) a rapid. I have tried lining WW decked boats and they filled with water and it was a real problem whereas the self-bailers worked perfectly. Another minor advantage is the ability to take your knees out of the thigh straps or loosen/adjust them in between rapids for comfort. On challenging steep creeks I find I often have to hold the boat for those with a WW deck whilst they get into their boat and put it on whereas those in self-bailers just jump in, go and easily sort it out their thigh straps on the fly. Often in the same situation I see WW decked paddlers forced to start padding downstream BEFORE they have got their deck on. As a result they often have to run a rapid without their deck and they end up filling with water, losing control and then have to go back to shore to empty. As someone who is often guiding groups and responsible for safety but who also likes to continually jump in and out of their boat for taking photos I would seriously struggle to go back to a WW decked packraft. That said for the tiny number of packrafters paddling continuous grade/class IV+/V I can see the advantages of a WW deck for both improved rolling and a reduction in the amount of times the boat gets fully swamped and sluggish. For those that worry about being colder you can always run a WW decked packraft (either fixed WW or removable WW) as a self-bailer and then choose when and where to wear the deck. The deck will stop splashing and trap warm air but you have most of the advantages of a full self-bailer with it being only slightly more awkward to get in and out of and a fraction more weight. Jen does this but wears the deck less than 5% of the time whilst others in NZ have also moved to this system.
Hey Mark, Thank you for your constructive comment ! I had thought about the "rescue tool application" side of the SB but wasn't sure of how different it would be between a SB and WW deck. Also, I had thought about having a SB floor and a WW deck but I could easily imagined it being harder to get in so I stuck to the full SB option.
Thanks Mark for the effort describing all those aspects in detail!
Very helpful and hopefully I am not the only one who copy-pasted your comment for future reference:-)
@Social Media Hardly noticeable although it does depend on different 'types of self-bailers'. For example some self-bailers have lots of space where there is no floor and as a result these boats have a fair bit of water sitting in them most of the time. As a result they can feel sluggish and slower. I think those in many Alpacka self-bailers notice this. Other self-bailers have almost no area where water will sit for very long (e.g. Robfin, Aire) and as a result they are very fast and agile. In fact I'd suggest that these two particular self-bailers are faster than any WW decked packraft except perhaps the Valkyrie (but this is only supposition).
Watching this video made me realize how much your comments made sense as I progress more into challenging whitewater. At the end of the day the self bailer is more versatile for sure having a WW deck Gnarwhal at the moment which is a bit of pain. I have a self bailing kit on the way and have removed and sold my deck. I live in NW Canada but I can see why Alaskans liking the WW deck.
Thanks for this video!!! I just ordered a Wolverine SB and was wondering today if I made the right choice or not. I got the SB for a lot of the reasons you mentioned and you mentioned a few more points I hadn't thought of. Additionally, it's nice to hear from someone with experience with both a decked and SB boat and how admit you are that you prefer SB. You've added confidence to my decision, thank you!!!
Bang on, I have never understood the "cold feet" in a self-bailer argument either, usually from those who've not paddled one! The the self bailers.
Yes, you are right here. I have used 2 years of self bailers. First Gnarwhal and now Wolverine. There is no way back when you once use it. I have used it in -2 celsius weather on a windy lake and I was hot because I had more clothes on than normally. In Grand Canyon it was great, I didn't need to empty raft from water and even got through the monster holes with it even I got big waves on me.
Here I got big waves in, it stops for a moment, but gives a lot of balance, and then you're of: ua-cam.com/video/C4t3je5qCOo/v-deo.html
Hey Caj ! Thanks for sharing your experience ! I think the Grand Canyon is sort of a "benchmark" , it is works fine down the GC, then, it'll work fine for everything else !
@@packraftingtv3464 at least for big waves and holes 🤣
Great video Max, and I agree 100%. I paddle a self-bailing Narwhal and love it. The other thing you hear from people is that SB boats are not as responsive as decked boats as we do have some extra weight with the water in the boat. I suppose that's a fair point but it just makes me consider my set-up, and when I need to get on my line a little sooner than others. But that's about all. Thanks for the vid Max.
Hi Seth, welcome to the world of self bailers !Maybe they are not as responsive...Maybe... But honestly, though... Who can legitimately say that they can notice the difference and it hinders their paddling experience, see what I mean...
Good point! I assume a lot of scepticism about self-bailing is due to confirmation bias, we hold on to guidelines that where helpful in the past, and thus are sceptical about trying out new ways that contradict old believes.
Same was true for Tizips, thigh straps (Alpacka took some time to get around to them;-) and packrafting in general (for kayakers).
Have them both, and I love my self bailers. Awesome for portages and scouting also. Probably won't go back to a deck raft again.
Hello, and sorry for my English (auto translation)
I just browsed your word press and several videos! It makes me ask myself even more questions and your vision joins the vision of several packrafteurs with whom I was able to exchange (auto bouncer). It's a pity the exchange section on the equipment does not work. I will have a question, what is your opinion on the Packraft auto bouncer of the Mékong brand? Thank you very much for your involvement and help and surely see you soon on one of the French rivers :)
I second the part where thigh straps slip away under the spray coat after specific manoeuvres (even with the 4-5-point ones).
It was always a hassle, and I was happy to do without in a self-bailer.
That having been said, no plus without a minus (more water inside= less flexibility in the moment and it can get a little chilly in colder temperatures as John has described:-).
Price, weight, packing size are another advantages of SB
I partly agree! Selfbailers are easier to handle, after falling out, which makes them safer and easier concerning wet-reentries. Especially for beginners, mid-level paddlers.
But always keep in mind, that a Selfbailing Packraft will by definition be a little slower. Especially when breaking through bigger holes, or boofing you will be slower and will need more force, so I think the risk to get caught in a rapid, is a little more pronounced with SB PR. Always think about the drainage time as well.
So I prefer paddling with spray deck in more difficult WW, especially with higher flows, where rolling the Packraft is the way to go after a flip. This needs some training though.
In shallow, more easier rivers or when giving instruction course a Selfbailer is the better choice.
Best regards
Tim
Current-raft.de
Great video, what do you think of using a self bailing boat with a removable white water deck?
One more thing, the holes on the floor sometimes get caught by stones and SB floors rip easier than without holes in it. But the materials are quite strong today.
I have never seen the floor ripping because of the holes at the bottom. Neither me or any of my friends.
@@packraftingtv3464
I have seen and fixed it quite recently on a two person WW Selfbailer. It’s not very common, but of course easier to tear, than without holes.
Thanks for the video
Hello Max, congratulations on your brand new selfmade Wolverine. 😎 great explanation about the advantages of a Selfbailer Packraft. I myself thought for a long time whether I should get a selfbailer too, but then I decided against it. Can you please tell me how much more expensive the self-bailer Wolverine was compared to the normal Wolverine? Thank you very much and have fun on the water. BR Tom
Hey Tom, I am curious, what made you decide to get a deck boat rather than a self bailer ? The price for a Kokopelli packraft is the same whether it is a self bailer or a deck version, for an Alpacka, though, I don't know, since I got a special deal on mine. I can't imagine the difference being significant if there is any at all. Have fun with YOUR new boat !
Hi Tom. In Australia self-bailing Gnarwhals are $300 cheaper than WW decked Gnarwhals. Can't comment on Wolverine though but you would imagine it should be similar - its just that you need to make a special request for them NOT to add the WW deck and to make the minor adjustments to be a SB.
@@packraftingtv3464 Hi Max, I think I have decided to buy a WW Deck, because Alpacka did not indicate SB on the product description of the Wolverine and you should have contacted Alpacka directly and asked if that would be possible. And I thought this special request would be very expensive. And I think I read somewhere that you are not allowed to load so much weight into a selfbailer Wolverine, because otherwise there is too much water inside through the holes.
But now after your and Mark's description I am thinking again whether I should have bought a selfbailer. Does everything make a lot of sense in whitewater and yes, sometimes this stupid spraydeck gets on my nerves. Maybe with my next boat in a year or two when the Wolverine 2.0 comes out. 😅😉 Cheers Tom.
@@MarkOates Hi Mark, yes I can imagine the price difference if you can choose this option by default like at the Gnarwhal. But as the Wolverine is not available as a standard selfbailer, I thought that this special request should be more expensive than a WW deck. I should have simply checked with Alpacka and the matter would have been solved. BR Tom.
Do you think I could go with a friend(not paddler) on this Gnarwhal occasionaly ? Thanks
What do you all think of SB's when the water starts getting thin and you start dragging bottom..TIA
I do not doubt the advantages you mention. But how is SB to paddle? How is it to boof when it is half full of water? Don't you miss a whole lot of fun because you are not riding high on waves? Alpacka does not recomend the SB Wolverine for padlers over 70 kg, incl gear. This is why I have ordered the Wolverine white water deck. BTW the Wolverine SB is 200 Euros cheaper than the one with skirt at Packraft Europe.
Hi Paul, I am not sure of what you mean by "riding high on wavse" I don't feel like I am any lower on waves because I have a SB (and used to have a deck boat). The thing about boofing with a boat half full of water is, I'd argue, a missconception. I very rarely get my boat half full of water. Even going through big waves. And when it does, it drains very rapidly. I think people would be very surprised. I think it is also important to think it terms of "risks vs rewards" how likely is it that you'd have to boof, seconds after you just got swamped by a wave ? Probably not often. Finally, If you have a look at what Mark oates does with his SB packraft, I don't think that paddling a SB limits your abilities. Thanks for your constructive comment. Have fun and paddle safe ! Max
I don't know where you found the info regarding the 70kg for Wolverines? Checked with Alpacka and is not true
@Caj Koskinen maybe you could weigh in since you have had your self bailer Wolverine for a while.
NRS has come out this year with their new packraft boats Nd they are all SBs at least the ones for ww.