Inigo San Milan also answered this question in a podcast interview (I think with Peter Attia). He said (1) minimum dose is really an hour, but better to do 1.5 hours or more. (2) at that duration for reasonably trained cyclists its best to go towards top end of Z2 (3) aim to do at least 3 but better to do 4 (or more) per week (4) if you had 4 hours you are better off with 4x1 hour than 1x4hr - ie frequency beats duration down to a minimum dosage.
The Attia interview you refer to is here: m.ua-cam.com/video/-6PDBVRkCKc/v-deo.html The key clip is from 1:58:00 until about 2:05 Summary: 1. the more for you are, the longer duration you need to make gains 2. 3 times per week is bare minimum, 4 is great, 5-6 is awesome. 3. Duration is 1-1.5 hours for regular people/non pros 4. This is based on his extensive experience in the lab.
On the other hand they asked Pogacar what to do if you only have 4 hours a week, he said he would probably do only HIT and rest the other day, for maximum gain...
@ When your exercise is at that number of hours I suspect the distribution matters less as by definition you have lots of inactive time. So I think it makes sense for more HIIT. For 6 hours a week plus distribution is going to matter and the more exercise you do the more it matters, to the point where if you are at 12+ hours a week the type of Z2 (high, medium, low) matters at lot too. Because it is about how you are managing recovery versus stimulus.
@ agree with that. Periodic longer Z2 is also worth doing even if time crunched. So if you had 4 hours per week for Z2 you might usually split 4x1 or 3x1.25 say but then one week in 3 you could do 1x1 + 1x3. Longer duration can get you some different adaptions. If you were doing high Z2 for the shorter rides you might be best to switch to low to medium Z2 for the long ride, if you’re sprinkling in HIIT workouts. Ie don’t overdo the fatigue on Z2 .
1hr Z2 might not be moving the needle much for an experienced athelete by itself but it's still adding to the weekly training load. I do alot of double days when commuting to work. I can get 15 hours with just 2 longer days (3-4hrs). Lots of 2x1hr to 90min days.
interesting contents! I consider myself as lower end advanced, time crunch rider, I ride 10-12 hrs per week in average and the maximum training time in single weekday is 2-2.5hrs. short ride in weekday is fine during build and specific training period as I can throw high intensity intervals weekdays and do low intensity long rides in weekend. During winter base season, it became a problem as I only do a few short intervals for maintenance and mainly focus on base training through out the season, and recently found that I don't get much benefit from around 2hrs weekday base training. What I do now is to add short maintenance intervals into weekday base training (saying 1.5-2hrs base at beginning and ending with 30mins interval), will see how it goes
Thanks Adam, I am choosing your podcast most often, admiring your skills and wisdom. I am a 62 years old advanced beginner biking away from obecity, and I am to much of a knucklehead to do 80% zone 2. I have been averaging 7 hours a week on bike or trainer since december 2023. Yesterday I did 30 minutes zone 2, and think it was a great session. First i was 10 minutes in zone 1, then 30 minutes in zone two, and because of taking turns and chasing another Rouvi-rider I drifted up to zone 3 for the last 35 minutes. Because of work I had to take a rest-day today, so the total stress will not be setting me back at all tomorrow. Do you think that this session was a good zone two session, even though it crept into zone three(and more in the finish)? I think its good to train all over the zones, and when I mix up the zones I often try to get a lot zone two in the first half of the trainingsession. My main goal is to get my metabolic system as good as I can, to lose some weight (but keep my muscles) and to enjoy biking outdoors and indoors.
Good question, and one thing I didn't get into as much was engagement with exercise and training. At some point, we need to recognize that keeping it fun is also very important in all of this, and it will keep you doing your training in the long run. So, chasing another virtual rider cause you want to go is fun! But "good" or "bad" all relates back to what is the intent: if the intent was zone 2 endurance training and you spent 33% in zone 3, then you missed the mark of the intent. Best to keep it zone 2 and not jump on wheels that day, then go hard the next. That contrast keeps you disciplined and keeps you on track. However, if it happens every now and again, it's still a fun training day where you burned calories, did work, and rode your bike. Don't beat yourself up over that!
@@adampulford1279 I was trying to do a zone 2, but got carried away. Next time I maybe will stay cool and stick to the plan. On Rouvy factors that pumps the speed to above planned are other riders. With good planning they can be avoided. We can stay away from "route of the day" and the new routes. Its not difficult to find a route where there are 5 miles between each rider. My unstuctured plan that factors in fun-deviation is the best plan I`ve had in this century when I look at the progress, and the main successfactor is continuity. It is fun. It is not breaking me down. And I have never trained less than 25 hours a month after I started it late December 2023. The big continuity-trick was getting an indoor-trainer with Rouvy. Therefore I have got on a bike regardless of weather and also when time is limited (3600 km outdoors and 2600 km indoors). I really believe in the fun -part. Having fun maybe downscales the total life-stress load and is a very potent reinforcer for training. If we train less than optimal, the reason might be that the reinforcer is not enough rewarding or that the reinforcer is not delivered contigent on the training (behaviouristlanguage, means that the reward is not delivered fast enough). Behaviuorists often will set up two types of rewards, the very fast delivered short time reward, and a long time reward. The long time reward is the one that its most difficult to run for. A long time reward for me will be a VO2/ Lactate test in the spring, two years after my previous test. I like to measure how far I come. Rewards I use are also Stravasegment personal records, personal records for favourite routes, both in real world and on Rouvy. And catching that backwheel is also very rewarding. A nice short time reward delivered contigent on the training is listening to interesting podcasts when I am on the trainer. I very much like you , Roadman, Chris Horner and GCN.
Our physiological strain budget remains the same in relative terms since we train by reference to our, hopefully, increasing FTP, but in absolute terms the amount of power we produce will increase. A beginner's FTP may be only 200W but his Z2 in terms of %FTP is still the same, ~ 65%, as for the advanced rider with FTP of 400W. it's just that 65% of 200W is only half as much as 65% of 400W.
Does a zone2 1h ride coupled with a zone2 run (within lets say 2:15 of time) count a 2h zone2? Or does it count as 1h run with a 1h ride and it would be better to do a 2h ride day A and a 2h day B run?
Question: For any of these doses, take intermediate riders for instance, is that 60-90 minutes, time in zone 2 or total ride time? Thanks for all you do!
I keep it simple: 90min total ride time. Most important: Keep RPE ~3-5/10 for the day and if NP is in your Zone 2 Endurance Miles, your on the right track!
I’d be very curious where I fall into the categories. Been casually riding bikes for 3-4 hours for 10 years but only started training 4-5 years ago but due to life constraints never get above 8-9 hours/wk and for the first 3-4 years I probably averaged 5-6 hours.
Since you have years of riding, even at 3-9hrs, I would say Intermediate because if you've been consistent, the hours still add up in the long run! But, none of this is super hard and fast all the time: if some days all you have is 45min to move and sweat and get away from work/life, that 45min is as valuable as gold!
@DR_1_1 Nah. Zone1 provides the higher ratio of fat oxidation (resting is even higher), but zone2 increases total work output more than the increase of carbohydrate utilisation compensates. Therfore you still burn more fat in absolute terms in zone2
@@maxl.5297 Makes sense... @@atpkompressor for a rider without permanent medical support, Z2 is mostly defined by HR and power, in relation with your age and FTP... the rest is mostly theory.
I think your classification is too ambitious. Beginners, e.g. in triathlon train 3-7 hours a week (7 is veeeery high), ok, but intermediates with 3,4 years of training experience don't train 8-12, they train maybe 4-10 hours. Years of training don't put you automatically in a situation where you train 10 hours. And with 10+ hours, the question of minimum duration doesn't come up any more, since with 10 hours, they also train 8+ hours in Zone 2 (otherwise they don't get to train 10 hours)
Inigo San Milan also answered this question in a podcast interview (I think with Peter Attia). He said (1) minimum dose is really an hour, but better to do 1.5 hours or more. (2) at that duration for reasonably trained cyclists its best to go towards top end of Z2 (3) aim to do at least 3 but better to do 4 (or more) per week (4) if you had 4 hours you are better off with 4x1 hour than 1x4hr - ie frequency beats duration down to a minimum dosage.
The Attia interview you refer to is here:
m.ua-cam.com/video/-6PDBVRkCKc/v-deo.html
The key clip is from 1:58:00 until about 2:05
Summary:
1. the more for you are, the longer duration you need to make gains
2. 3 times per week is bare minimum, 4 is great, 5-6 is awesome.
3. Duration is 1-1.5 hours for regular people/non pros
4. This is based on his extensive experience in the lab.
On the other hand they asked Pogacar what to do if you only have 4 hours a week, he said he would probably do only HIT and rest the other day, for maximum gain...
@ When your exercise is at that number of hours I suspect the distribution matters less as by definition you have lots of inactive time. So I think it makes sense for more HIIT. For 6 hours a week plus distribution is going to matter and the more exercise you do the more it matters, to the point where if you are at 12+ hours a week the type of Z2 (high, medium, low) matters at lot too. Because it is about how you are managing recovery versus stimulus.
@@jeremyleake6868 Also, what are we training for... health, a specific KOM or competition, long touring trip...
@ agree with that. Periodic longer Z2 is also worth doing even if time crunched. So if you had 4 hours per week for Z2 you might usually split 4x1 or 3x1.25 say but then one week in 3 you could do 1x1 + 1x3. Longer duration can get you some different adaptions. If you were doing high Z2 for the shorter rides you might be best to switch to low to medium Z2 for the long ride, if you’re sprinkling in HIIT workouts. Ie don’t overdo the fatigue on Z2 .
1hr Z2 might not be moving the needle much for an experienced athelete by itself but it's still adding to the weekly training load. I do alot of double days when commuting to work. I can get 15 hours with just 2 longer days (3-4hrs). Lots of 2x1hr to 90min days.
interesting contents! I consider myself as lower end advanced, time crunch rider, I ride 10-12 hrs per week in average and the maximum training time in single weekday is 2-2.5hrs. short ride in weekday is fine during build and specific training period as I can throw high intensity intervals weekdays and do low intensity long rides in weekend. During winter base season, it became a problem as I only do a few short intervals for maintenance and mainly focus on base training through out the season, and recently found that I don't get much benefit from around 2hrs weekday base training. What I do now is to add short maintenance intervals into weekday base training (saying 1.5-2hrs base at beginning and ending with 30mins interval), will see how it goes
So interesting to read every one’s short summary of what they are doing. Fascinating really.
Totally @terrymcmaster2787 - love everyone chiming in here, super fun to read!
WOWOWO, exactly the question I’m wondering about 😂😂😂
Thanks Adam, I am choosing your podcast most often, admiring your skills and wisdom. I am a 62 years old advanced beginner biking away from obecity, and I am to much of a knucklehead to do 80% zone 2. I have been averaging 7 hours a week on bike or trainer since december 2023. Yesterday I did 30 minutes zone 2, and think it was a great session. First i was 10 minutes in zone 1, then 30 minutes in zone two, and because of taking turns and chasing another Rouvi-rider I drifted up to zone 3 for the last 35 minutes. Because of work I had to take a rest-day today, so the total stress will not be setting me back at all tomorrow. Do you think that this session was a good zone two session, even though it crept into zone three(and more in the finish)? I think its good to train all over the zones, and when I mix up the zones I often try to get a lot zone two in the first half of the trainingsession. My main goal is to get my metabolic system as good as I can, to lose some weight (but keep my muscles) and to enjoy biking outdoors and indoors.
Good question, and one thing I didn't get into as much was engagement with exercise and training. At some point, we need to recognize that keeping it fun is also very important in all of this, and it will keep you doing your training in the long run. So, chasing another virtual rider cause you want to go is fun! But "good" or "bad" all relates back to what is the intent: if the intent was zone 2 endurance training and you spent 33% in zone 3, then you missed the mark of the intent. Best to keep it zone 2 and not jump on wheels that day, then go hard the next. That contrast keeps you disciplined and keeps you on track. However, if it happens every now and again, it's still a fun training day where you burned calories, did work, and rode your bike. Don't beat yourself up over that!
@@adampulford1279 I was trying to do a zone 2, but got carried away. Next time I maybe will stay cool and stick to the plan. On Rouvy factors that pumps the speed to above planned are other riders. With good planning they can be avoided. We can stay away from "route of the day" and the new routes. Its not difficult to find a route where there are 5 miles between each rider.
My unstuctured plan that factors in fun-deviation is the best plan I`ve had in this century when I look at the progress, and the main successfactor is continuity. It is fun. It is not breaking me down. And I have never trained less than 25 hours a month after I started it late December 2023. The big continuity-trick was getting an indoor-trainer with Rouvy. Therefore I have got on a bike regardless of weather and also when time is limited (3600 km outdoors and 2600 km indoors). I really believe in the fun -part. Having fun maybe downscales the total life-stress load and is a very potent reinforcer for training.
If we train less than optimal, the reason might be that the reinforcer is not enough rewarding or that the reinforcer is not delivered contigent on the training (behaviouristlanguage, means that the reward is not delivered fast enough). Behaviuorists often will set up two types of rewards, the very fast delivered short time reward, and a long time reward. The long time reward is the one that its most difficult to run for. A long time reward for me will be a VO2/ Lactate test in the spring, two years after my previous test. I like to measure how far I come. Rewards I use are also Stravasegment personal records, personal records for favourite routes, both in real world and on Rouvy. And catching that backwheel is also very rewarding.
A nice short time reward delivered contigent on the training is listening to interesting podcasts when I am on the trainer. I very much like you , Roadman, Chris Horner and GCN.
Our physiological strain budget remains the same in relative terms since we train by reference to our, hopefully, increasing FTP, but in absolute terms the amount of power we produce will increase. A beginner's FTP may be only 200W but his Z2 in terms of %FTP is still the same, ~ 65%, as for the advanced rider with FTP of 400W. it's just that 65% of 200W is only half as much as 65% of 400W.
Does a zone2 1h ride coupled with a zone2 run (within lets say 2:15 of time) count a 2h zone2? Or does it count as 1h run with a 1h ride and it would be better to do a 2h ride day A and a 2h day B run?
Don't overthink it. You did 2hrs cardio but 1hr muscular specifity each.
It would be good if there were a reference to the analyses that lead to the statements made here.
Question: For any of these doses, take intermediate riders for instance, is that 60-90 minutes, time in zone 2 or total ride time? Thanks for all you do!
I keep it simple: 90min total ride time. Most important: Keep RPE ~3-5/10 for the day and if NP is in your Zone 2 Endurance Miles, your on the right track!
@@adampulford1279 Thank you!
I’d be very curious where I fall into the categories. Been casually riding bikes for 3-4 hours for 10 years but only started training 4-5 years ago but due to life constraints never get above 8-9 hours/wk and for the first 3-4 years I probably averaged 5-6 hours.
Since you have years of riding, even at 3-9hrs, I would say Intermediate because if you've been consistent, the hours still add up in the long run! But, none of this is super hard and fast all the time: if some days all you have is 45min to move and sweat and get away from work/life, that 45min is as valuable as gold!
If you only have an hour to train at a time, even weekends, pick a different sport.
Kitsbow 😢
Definitely the saddest part about this episode 😢 but thank you for noticing! #stillagreatshirt
What do you mean with zone 2?
Do you mean FatMax or lack of pyruvat or Zone 2 of Coggan and Allen? Thank you
Wouldn't fat max be zone 1.
@DR_1_1
Nah.
Zone1 provides the higher ratio of fat oxidation (resting is even higher), but zone2 increases total work output more than the increase of carbohydrate utilisation compensates.
Therfore you still burn more fat in absolute terms in zone2
Upto LT1 but above zone 1.
@@maxl.5297 Makes sense...
@@atpkompressor for a rider without permanent medical support, Z2 is mostly defined by HR and power, in relation with your age and FTP... the rest is mostly theory.
Zone 2 Coggan Style: ~56-75% of FTP
I think your classification is too ambitious. Beginners, e.g. in triathlon train 3-7 hours a week (7 is veeeery high), ok, but intermediates with 3,4 years of training experience don't train 8-12, they train maybe 4-10 hours. Years of training don't put you automatically in a situation where you train 10 hours. And with 10+ hours, the question of minimum duration doesn't come up any more, since with 10 hours, they also train 8+ hours in Zone 2 (otherwise they don't get to train 10 hours)