20 Weird Facts About World Cup MTB Racing: Unwritten Rules, Obscure Regulations

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  • @gmbn
    @gmbn  Рік тому +8

    If you had the power to add or remove any rule for MTB racing, what would it be? 📋✍

    • @LaurentiusTriarius
      @LaurentiusTriarius Рік тому +3

      That THC ban thing and allowed full body armor 🎉

    • @KP-ol3tc
      @KP-ol3tc Рік тому +4

      Cannabis cuz I'm from California so yeaahhh...lol Seriously though, where is the chemical advantage?

    • @floydblandston108
      @floydblandston108 Рік тому +2

      Mandatory THC or Beer for DH. A special 'Cocaine only' Team Relay class for XC/Short track, and bring back 4x with a 'Mandatory Meth' rule.😵‍💫🤣😂

    • @lalligood
      @lalligood Рік тому +1

      As of this year (although there has been some confusion at some venues in the past couple years as well), riders cannot wear GoPro cameras during qualifying, semi-final, & final runs without special permission from the UCI. Also, any racer wearing an approved camera cannot publish the footage until at least 48 (or possibly 72) hours after the race. (IMHO riders capturing their own POV footage does not dilute nor interfere with the broadcast footage!)

    • @Nick-pq6ij
      @Nick-pq6ij Рік тому

      The ban on riders recording race runs! I miss that footage and I reckon it negatively impacts riders own youtube channel....

  • @Anandlovesmtb
    @Anandlovesmtb Рік тому +53

    Gary and his team worked hard for that win that was unfairly taken away. Many would call it a "joint" effort." 😂

  • @HUKIT.
    @HUKIT. Рік тому +6

    I’ve got SQ Labs Innerbarends 411 on my enduro bikes. Having another hand hold on long climbs especially with my carpal tunnel is priceless.

    • @albullit
      @albullit Рік тому

      Banned in UCI events though, 4.1.040.

    • @theleftbob
      @theleftbob Рік тому

      I’m a fan of those too, a lot of my riding is a to b along the flat, rough but simple stuff and they are great for taking the pressure off my wrists

  • @andrewh7868
    @andrewh7868 Рік тому +22

    Back in my day everyone took first place because even the high-precision sundials only agreed to within about 15 minutes.

  • @ianfleischhacker6154
    @ianfleischhacker6154 Рік тому +6

    This was surprisingly entertaining. Well done.

  • @ThunderStruckMTB
    @ThunderStruckMTB Рік тому +63

    The UCI should make a rule that pays the riders what they deserve. It is a complete joke what the Elite DH World Cup winners "win" for throwing themselves down a mountain.... yet the UCI heads sleep soundly on their beds stuffed with $100 bills. Also, pass a rule that the race broadcaster MUST keep a scrolling current position graphic on the screen in XCO that keeps scrolling from 1st all the way to last. Every SINGLE other race broadcaster in any other racing sport does this, yet we are lucky to get a graphic to 20th once or twice in a 90 minute race.... Terrible.

    • @justinfournier1285
      @justinfournier1285 Рік тому

      What are they getting paid?

    • @kevinburke1325
      @kevinburke1325 Рік тому

      Uhhhhhh, then get a job? No one is forcing you to throw yourself down a mountain. Quit being entitled and actually do something useful.

    • @EMTB17
      @EMTB17 Рік тому

      It’s all about how much they take in row. Mountain Bike racing is not a money pit.

    • @j3f423
      @j3f423 Рік тому +2

      Uci is awful

    • @pituife
      @pituife Рік тому +2

      I'm glad someone mentioned the position listing. If you are the 21st best rider you basically dissappear from the race, not to mentioned that from 5th below there are almost no camera shots. In 90 minutes there's enough time for all.

  • @smv9338
    @smv9338 Рік тому +7

    Loving the DH content on the channel. How about a feature on great DH races & riders of the past?

    • @gmbn
      @gmbn  Рік тому

      Good thinking! We'll pass that on to the team 👍

  • @grahamreeve5209
    @grahamreeve5209 Рік тому +1

    Martin, loved it. "It's very bumpy"

  • @matt_acton-varian
    @matt_acton-varian Рік тому +2

    I can understand radios in XC especially from a road background perspective, but I would imagine in gravity events it would be pretty dangerous. Warning your mechanic you have a puncture and they will have a wheel ready at the service point etc. And yes, bar ends are still semi-common on commuter bikes, especially those with narrower handlebars.

  • @pewsician2388
    @pewsician2388 Рік тому +3

    The visor (or "peak" as you fellers across the pond call them) rule is ridiculous. Even though they're pretty much all break away now, they are still at least a little more dangerous as far as rotational brain injuries go. Of course, back in my day, they were attached with screws and usually stayed on even in hard crashes.

  • @jalapenohotcakes
    @jalapenohotcakes Рік тому

    Great video. I don't know most of that that stuff 🤔 It makes it more interesting to watch the whole racing knowing this stuff 👍 👍

  • @ainmeile
    @ainmeile Рік тому

    That rule about not having to go back to where you left the track was VERY relevant last week in Loudonvielle...

  • @EarthlyEden1
    @EarthlyEden1 Рік тому +11

    I think the most unusual rule is not allowing riders to post their finals run on their social medias. I mean what do they actually gain from that.

    • @That_Stealth_Guy
      @That_Stealth_Guy Рік тому +2

      It's more about the loss of advertising money. Once again the all mighty dollar, euro or whatever wins out over the accomplishment of an individual.

    • @EarthlyEden1
      @EarthlyEden1 Рік тому

      @@That_Stealth_Guy I still do not see how it effects anything, the footage on riders gopros are not footage from the live show.

    • @lodg1e
      @lodg1e Рік тому +1

      @@EarthlyEden1 it's still footage that the UCI don't want you to see unless you pay up your 💰

    • @MrSketchyCharacter
      @MrSketchyCharacter Рік тому

      GoPro seems to have priority over posting helmet cam vids of a run. Did they pay to keep everyone else from posting? If so, that sucks.

  • @vitorvilasanchez
    @vitorvilasanchez Рік тому +3

    how can thc make you go down hill faster when it gets you higher not lower?

  • @alecwhatshisname5170
    @alecwhatshisname5170 Рік тому +1

    THC is a vasodilator and bronchodilator, it helps you breathe better and it helps you deliver oxygen around the body. It is definitely a PED. (I vaped concentrates for 6 years, quit recently.)

  • @darrenkershaw5272
    @darrenkershaw5272 Рік тому +1

    I’m in the Welsh xc series I find there points system is odd. So there is five rounds BUT it’s your best three results out of the five that win the series , so you can have scored more points then anyone else in five races but if you haven’t scored more points than someone else in your best three races they will be above you in the table but you could have more points in total .
    Sorry for the confusion 😂😂😂

  • @GeekonaBike
    @GeekonaBike Рік тому +1

    I still use bar ends & have to search for NOS to find my Safars favs.

  • @sled5196
    @sled5196 Рік тому +2

    Radios would amazing as a racer I would think, even if for nothing else but your manager giving you subtle cues or reminders about big features coming up. Sort of like a navigator/copilot in rally racing. Along with what the guys mentioned about timing updates. Provided the manager/spotter had a perfect live tv view to track the racer's progress.

    • @gmbn
      @gmbn  Рік тому +1

      It would certainly add an interesting dynamic to a race run!

    • @SubversionGarage
      @SubversionGarage Рік тому

      If no radios, then a pit board or spotters along the course

  • @coco1252
    @coco1252 Рік тому

    Radio comm was broadcasted f1 style at this year's TDF. Pretty cool

  • @TheKoosterify
    @TheKoosterify Рік тому +1

    7:47 shout out to my boi Will Greenfield with his Block Shox too!

  • @jeromeblais7972
    @jeromeblais7972 Рік тому

    Really interesting, good job guys 👍

  • @LaurentiusTriarius
    @LaurentiusTriarius Рік тому +9

    Pretty much all the mountain bikers I know smoke the reefer or smoked at one point 😂

  • @dannyk3718
    @dannyk3718 6 місяців тому

    getting rid of skins suit was mtb's greatest move

  • @rawmancemtb
    @rawmancemtb Рік тому

    Ear piece isn't going to matter that much for DH but for Enduro it would be massive as you can't memorize everything so getting cornering instructions would allow you to ride much better.

  • @joelmtb4584
    @joelmtb4584 Рік тому +4

    Rich used to race belt drive at ews events back in the day so was he breaking the rules or was he too bad for them to notice

    • @kubagajda7347
      @kubagajda7347 Рік тому +1

      I belive EWS wasn't under UCI umbrella back in those days

  • @WIPEYOURLENZ
    @WIPEYOURLENZ Рік тому +2

    Why are you holding your shirt for the microphone it would be in the full face helmet 😂

  • @PaulFlude
    @PaulFlude Рік тому

    In helmet mic gets the protection from the wind. Probably really clear compared to road riders.

  • @cornishcactus
    @cornishcactus Рік тому

    In our group the unwritten rules are Two Slice Taylor shall get to the cake stop first and cameras will be out before the rider gets up/out of the bush

  • @danpatterson7108
    @danpatterson7108 Рік тому

    Here's a question for Martyn.. Is thee anyfootage of him competing in the national Tials comps? Cause i can't find any, and i remember an awesome Mbuk issue when it was him vs Hawsey, Ackrigg, Eddie tongue.. Would love to actually watch that.

  • @ChrisCapoccia
    @ChrisCapoccia Рік тому +8

    prioritizing fairness in women's racing is a good decision. inclusion is nice, but fairness is more important. it's also important at earlier categories because these drive selection for and elimination from elite racing. But there are a lot of other ways to ride a bike that can involve everyone, and even more ways to make a career on a bike these days

    • @doggodoggo3000
      @doggodoggo3000 Рік тому

      bro. the right doesnt give a crap about fairness. they literally openly run on denying people the right and ability to vote. Something you hear people on the right say these days is "America is not a democracy, its a republic."
      The "fairness in womens sports" act is not about fairness. Someone focus tested this bs people latched on the the "fairness" aspect. you are a sheep and you need to learn more about this issue.

  • @albullit
    @albullit Рік тому

    No mention of 1.3.033, I'm surprised as thats always a fun one.

  • @Patricia-ED
    @Patricia-ED Рік тому +2

    Given these are new rules from the UCI it would suggest there is an existing problem, but where are all of the trans women who have already taken over women’s sport under the old rules? Also the ‘evidence’ that is often quoated is generally from unsubstantiated and discredited sources or a misinterpretation of results.

    • @charlottefonfara8748
      @charlottefonfara8748 Рік тому +3

      Almost as if the issue of trans people in sport is just a distraction from the real inequalities surrounding female participation like lack of funding, support and visibility…

  • @BinManSays87
    @BinManSays87 9 місяців тому

    Legit THC can stop the burn of lactic acid build up and let you push harder/longer, it can be used as a training aid but in a race situation that could give you the edge potentially

  • @Xgecko66
    @Xgecko66 Рік тому

    Last years enduro in Scotland I believe a number of racers were using Loam Labs Counterpunch bar ends

  • @jbogalho
    @jbogalho Рік тому

    I love bar ends. I don't ride for others to watch, I ride to have fun.

  • @Aspctgtag
    @Aspctgtag Рік тому

    Good day when you post gmbn❤

  • @felderosa
    @felderosa Рік тому

    "you have to listen to me sammy!"

  • @leeroberts163
    @leeroberts163 Рік тому +1

    Shock announcement - Martin kind of admits to using THC-type stuff! 🤣🤣
    We all need medication of some sort for some things, mind.

  • @AmvC
    @AmvC Рік тому

    good show!

  • @mrvwbug4423
    @mrvwbug4423 Рік тому +1

    I agree that there should be an open/non-binary category for racing for trans athletes, some races have already done this with a "non-binary" race class. This should also be combined with a massive simplification of what UCI, IOC, etc. consider "female", there is a TON of policing of women's bodies even among cisgender women in elite sports. The no skinsuit one is also funny given how many DH and enduro racers wear very tight kit, two best examples, Ritchie Rude and his love of skin tight jerseys to show off his muscles and Vali Holl because she's a bit on the thicc side.

    • @doggodoggo3000
      @doggodoggo3000 Рік тому

      there are several issues with that. one being that there arent many trans people, even fewer trans athletes. theyd be in a category by themselves.
      the other more important reason is that if you dont let trans women compete with women, you are saying that trans women arent women.

  • @rawmancemtb
    @rawmancemtb Рік тому

    Having done some descents where it's rocky but it's nearly just straight line so I wonder how much watts I could get from an aero suit. It gets to be quite substantial when you go over 35kmh. And the faster you go the more it matters.

  • @Skizm_admin
    @Skizm_admin Рік тому

    10:15 “unlike you” 😂😂😂

  • @stuartclark7488
    @stuartclark7488 Рік тому +2

    I am waiting for the Cervelo shock swap being banned for next year.

    • @gmbn
      @gmbn  Рік тому +2

      🤔 Possibly! We like it as a clever way of getting around the rules, but they may look at closing that loop-hole... Time will tell!

  • @nelsonalvarez9054
    @nelsonalvarez9054 Рік тому

    Talking of first hand T.H.C. does not in fact makes you ride better just makes it even more enjoyable

  • @JayMTB88
    @JayMTB88 Рік тому +3

    Redbull should make a DH worldcup series. Better coverage, better presenters. More information. More of an event. Crankworks, rampage, hardline are all covered so much better. Im watching elites ride. Feels like im watching some shit corporate bike ride. All the rules all the advertising. UCI is out of touch massively.

  • @metalmuchkin1342
    @metalmuchkin1342 Рік тому

    Neil always mentions he was a DH racer back in the day..... yet I've never heard of him racing hahah

    • @1brokenspoke189
      @1brokenspoke189 Рік тому +1

      He was a top 10 WC rider back in the day and one of the best in the UK

  • @iwanttoliveinthewoods
    @iwanttoliveinthewoods Рік тому +1

    Weed could arguably allow you to get into flow state easy 🤔 #420friendly

  • @PhilandErika
    @PhilandErika Рік тому

    Are disc wheels allowed in XCO or XCC

  • @samblenkharn8099
    @samblenkharn8099 Рік тому +7

    Cracking content bois 🔥
    Hopefully races can find a way to welcome people of all genders that is fair to everyone. A tricky task but one worth putting the effort into. Mountain biking needs to be inclusive.

    • @ka81alex
      @ka81alex Рік тому +4

      There women races, men races.. So, both genders are there..
      Did I miss smth ?..

    • @samblenkharn8099
      @samblenkharn8099 Рік тому +2

      @@ka81alex yes.

    • @ka81alex
      @ka81alex Рік тому

      @@samblenkharn8099 what exactly ?

    • @braaaplife557
      @braaaplife557 Рік тому +3

      Banning trans women from racing is a solution looking for a problem. In the last 20 years there's been two of us (Kate and Me) racing world cups and neither of us has won.

  • @martinhagen2913
    @martinhagen2913 Рік тому

    Is a shortsleeve jersey allowed? If not, why?

  • @patrikstoltz5952
    @patrikstoltz5952 Рік тому

    The rule of not to be aloud to have diffrent wheel size on XC bike come from roadbiking. In the 90ies alot of road bike brands started to have smaller frontwhells for lowering the rider front area and get more aerodynamics. That made the bike unsafe in the peleton

    • @mrvwbug4423
      @mrvwbug4423 Рік тому

      Not much calling for mullet setups in XC as it is. They were the first MTB discipline to adopt 29er wheels because they pedal more efficiently

  • @alfonshasel1995
    @alfonshasel1995 Рік тому +3

    There is lots of information out there that lowering Testosterone is only one aspect, as going through male puberty alone gives you an unfair advantage. So i am all for it - female category is female only, the other one is ffa.

    • @MrJp2323
      @MrJp2323 Рік тому

      Exactly, in order to be fair to all the women in the race you’d have to take into account that the bone mass was already formed as well as stronger connective tissues

  • @pk9580
    @pk9580 Рік тому

    Anyone has link to the trans athlete video please?

  • @TheArrowFist
    @TheArrowFist 8 місяців тому +1

    Let the riders smoke!!!

  • @bchearne
    @bchearne 11 місяців тому

    I think the THC prohibition is silly, but in some sense all of the rules are arbitrary. It does seem a bit unfair to disqualify a rider for it, especially now it’s legal in a lot of places

  • @metalmuchkin1342
    @metalmuchkin1342 Рік тому

    I think word cup champion is better, as its more consistency over the races, you can perform in one race and win the world championship in just one event. But iver multiple races and getting the points would be better

  • @MarvinWestmaas
    @MarvinWestmaas Рік тому +1

    If thc would improve riding skills I'd be a world cup winner to 🤣🤣

  • @w13rdguy
    @w13rdguy Рік тому +2

    Fair is fair, where it concerns gender. If a female wants to race as a man, is he allowed to juice up? And if a person's born gender gives them an advantage, is it not apparent and obvious?

  • @chrisridesbicycles
    @chrisridesbicycles Рік тому

    Feels a bit like the commercial side has more influence on the MTB side than on the road. A lot of rules that are made to make it „look right“. I don‘t like that the sponsors go over the national champs jerseys. On the road, sponsors that want to be too prominent on a national champs jersey get stick from the fans and there is even a team that has no sponsors at all on the national champ jerseys and the sponsors have to agree on that.

  • @miket2646
    @miket2646 Рік тому

    Weed should be allowed because it doesn't require competitors to endanger themselves in any substantial way in order to remain competitive.

  • @vehicle-stuff
    @vehicle-stuff Рік тому

    I never new that a rider should split it's winnings 50/50 with it's mechanic.

  • @galenkehler
    @galenkehler Рік тому +1

    Imagine being this naive to think MTB had LESS of a doping problem than road in the 2000s 😂😂

  • @kennethcampbell7263
    @kennethcampbell7263 Рік тому

    How could the hand of food and water if not by hand a long boom with a tear away.

  • @1000750
    @1000750 Рік тому +1

    I wouldn't dare ride without puffin for safety purpose 😎 Back in my motorcycle racing days it was a givin along with a handful of painkillers to deal with my past injury's, is that cheating? I'm retired from racing now and sobor from the pk's but still puff it up and take kratom. 🤙

  • @powdork
    @powdork Рік тому +2

    Holy crap, THC gets your title taken away? Wow I'll never watch a bike race again.

  • @beneadesmtb
    @beneadesmtb Рік тому

    Loosing a word cup title over a bit of weed is rediculous, yes, it can help with anxiety while riding which allows you to take less risks and ride faster, does it enhance any musuclar performance? Not really... I can understand from a safety stand point as it can affect your reaction times but to disallow a win because of it is stupid. They'd best not test me in my amateur races when I finally pluck up the courage to start

  • @sloops4398
    @sloops4398 Рік тому

    Don't think a DH Pro can talk during his run to anybody. Course Preview is not 100%. Also guess that talking to them during race run would not help them, they will lose concentration and crash.

  • @fnbr5916
    @fnbr5916 Рік тому

    after not riding for about a year jumping back on the bike after consistently smoking weed i felt so much more confident on my bike and that led to hitting bigger jumps and riding faster so if anything it probably should be banned to be honest hahahah

  • @Barryferg100
    @Barryferg100 Рік тому

    THC would make him more loose, possibly loss of control (dangerous use forsure)

    • @mrvwbug4423
      @mrvwbug4423 Рік тому +1

      But WADA doesn't care about active THC levels vs total THC levels. They follow the rule of ANY THC = banhammer. THC only remains active in the bloodstream for a couple hours maximum, but is detectable in hair and urine for up to 90 days. It's just more reefer madness BS that hopefully will get done away with as Cannabis is legalized in more places.

  • @prusak26
    @prusak26 Рік тому

    Well, UCI got at least one thing right.

  • @rossgirven5163
    @rossgirven5163 Рік тому

    THC would have helped with muscle pain and inflammation.
    Possible advantage?

  • @thewrx2600
    @thewrx2600 Рік тому

    only agree with 13.5.001, all the other rules are meh......

  • @peterthomson6161
    @peterthomson6161 Рік тому +1

    Gary Houseman needs to get his medal back. Why are they even testing for THC.

    • @braaaplife557
      @braaaplife557 Рік тому

      Blame Myles Rockwell for hot boxing the gondola in CO (1998 ish) in front of the UCI peeps.

  • @DougieFresh13
    @DougieFresh13 Рік тому +1

    The birds and the bees and

  • @boudicasb8523
    @boudicasb8523 Рік тому +20

    Love GMBN, my young daughter loves mountain biking and we need to ensure that only women compete in the women’s races. Women’s sport of all kinds needs to be kept for women only…not trans women…testosterone is just one aspect of the unfair advantage people born male have against women.

    • @xspongeyx
      @xspongeyx Рік тому

      What if they lower there testorone levels enough , to make it fair ?

    • @vehicle-stuff
      @vehicle-stuff Рік тому +3

      What you were born with is what you get. If you can change that it's your decision, not everyone else's. Be grateful that you have the ability to do it in the first place, as a lot of people can't. Just a reminder - there are a lot of people born with different abnormalities that can't even play sports.
      Women have struggled much longer. Hundreds of years to be allowed to play sports in the first place, then professionally. You want to be a "sport" and play fair - Leave them alone, that's fair.

    • @user-yx1qk4sk5t
      @user-yx1qk4sk5t Рік тому +1

      ​@@xspongeyxStill no. It's like cycling with steroids. You might be clean now but you already achieved the physical benefits that you can afford to taper and get off. Bone density and musculature are vastly different.

    • @boudicasb8523
      @boudicasb8523 Рік тому +2

      @@xspongeyx
      That doesn’t stop larger bone and muscle mass…there is no way to put male and females on an equal footing in sports.
      Therefore anyone born male should stick to that category, and accept it.

  • @gianmarcocostanzo1380
    @gianmarcocostanzo1380 Рік тому

    The best rider is always the one who wins the World Championship. If you are the best, then you should be able to focus on the one race that counts the most and win it. At least, this is very much the case in XCO, where the fitness peak counts the most, and the best riders have to pick wisely their training plan for the year (see for instance Pauline Ferrand Prevot, she almost never wins World Cups overalls, but she's the GOAT). Even more valid is for the Olympics.

  • @jac1red
    @jac1red Рік тому

    Puff puff give,

  • @dankmacloud6313
    @dankmacloud6313 Рік тому

    Weed should be legal. It wont help him win but it would help him recover. What a joke!

  • @Hwy929
    @Hwy929 Рік тому +3

    XX vs XY, doesn't need to be complicated

    • @braaaplife557
      @braaaplife557 Рік тому +4

      There's a lot of other naturally occurring variations. XXY XYY XXXY all natural.

    • @tychoMX
      @tychoMX Рік тому +2

      Caster Semenya would like a word with you. And her lawyers, too.

  • @ewxlt
    @ewxlt Рік тому +2

    “Kate” is a man, he needs to race against men.

  • @samrowland2816
    @samrowland2816 Рік тому +3

    Open categories for Trans athletes is the only wat to keep things fair for women. You can lower a mans testosterone as much as you want, he's still gonna have male body geometry, bone structure, tendon strength etc. It's definitely not a coincidence how many low tier male athletes are suddenly world beaters in the Womens game. Good on mountain biking for protecting young women like my daughter from having to compete against men.

    • @braaaplife557
      @braaaplife557 Рік тому

      Yes it's crazy how many trans women are winning world cups these days. We really need to ban them as they've done nothing but win every race. Oh wait a minute. In the last 20 years there's been two (Kate W and Me) and neither of us has won a world cup. Maybe direct your ill informed outrage somewhere else.

  • @Colorful_Coco_Bean
    @Colorful_Coco_Bean Рік тому

    Thc wouldn’t help you win a downhill unless there was chocolate milk and brownies at the bottom. How much weed could you buy for 2500 Swiss franks back the ?

  • @22Jeffers
    @22Jeffers Рік тому +1

    “I don’t know whether to open my mouth, I’m terrified!” 😂😂😂
    Yes that rule is right! We should not be infringing women’s rights.

  • @normawalker4428
    @normawalker4428 Рік тому +4

    Being a transwoman i would be happy just to compete, although i was told i was crap as a male so being female was not going to make any difference.

  • @Skizm_admin
    @Skizm_admin Рік тому

    11:44 HE!!! It’s a man.

  • @dicknavis7
    @dicknavis7 Рік тому

    I actually disagree about the marijuana thing. In my opinion, I think it does open up your "natural" abilities and make you a better rider. That doesn't mean it's like a steroid/enhancing drug etc. It just brings you into this weird one with the bike and the trail, nature/surroundings you are riding in. Which in turn gives you more confidence in what you are doing, and you just haul ass and flow with the trail. 🤙 I would recommend this...but only to experienced riders of age of course lol!

  • @dicknavis7
    @dicknavis7 Рік тому +1

    Ok....on the trans subject. Let's see an actual biological women compete against men. It's only the "men" competing in women's sports. Don't dare go down this road and ruin MTB sports! I'm soo tired of this ignorance being allowed.