I suggested this a few weeks ago in a Q&A to a dev about why tournament maps don't rotate in. Maybe he was taking notes. Certainly it helps if the top players address this as well.
4:30 unpopular opinion: they should have kicked out empire wars and put return of rome there-so the multiplayer has at least a chance... 3:44 you cannot put Michi to the same category as the other maps. Michi is special, the ultimate closed map. By the way, I think you and Viper should create a new formate where one of you discuss a controversial topic and the other has to react. After 5 videos you two discuss together about the last 5 videos or so. 6:20 ying and Yang a really cool team game map. I suggest you play this with Liereyy against Viper and Jordan (insider tip:D)
TLDR: The learning curve is already so steep. Be cautious when considering changes that would add even more complexity for an entry level player When I started playing ranked, I focused on a single civ (based on a recommendation in one of your videos). I figured out how to execute simple build orders. Then I got more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the other civs and how to counter them while spreading to a few new civs. Now I'm trying to start playing random civs, building off this foundation. I've got to ~1200 elo in 450 games played. The learning curve is already STEEP in this game. There is so much to learn. 43 civs, about a half-dozen viable openings, hotkeys, micro, macro. I think this map pool discussion is really reserved for players at the upper-intermediate to pro level, where you've already learned the civs (mostly), have the technical skills, and where the given map and matchup determine the viable strategies. This is just not where most of the player pool is at. As a primarily arabia player, almost every non-arabia game I play is lopsided, either because my opponent only knows how to FC and we play an open map, or because they pick that specific map and have a prepared strategy for it, while I don't even know how many boars to expect. Whether or not the map would be fun, the games are not because they are generally not competitive. I don't mind these matchups so much now that I've got more games under my belt and I'm getting better at making in-game adjustments, but when I was just starting out, it was a real drag. Especially if I was only going to play 1-2 games that day. My solution would be allow for unlimited bans. Players should only have to play the maps they want to play. Let us all learn at our own pace. I don't play ladder to see my world ranking, I play to get a game with an opponent near my skill level, so that we can have a competitive game (and improve in the long run)
I do feel like TCI's BO21 has definitely helped reinforce Viper's entire standpoint since you made the map pool so large and so many games are being played.
I think there can be pools by categories so 3 closed maps can't be selected. And adding exhausted maps system where specific maps elected a lot would be cool.
To experience the great variety of maps this game has to offer, one really just needs to take a look at one or two sets of the champions invitational. Felt like there was so much variety in there.
I feel like their shouldn't be any bans, there should be a ranking of preferences. They should have like 12 maps, you rank the number 1, 2 ,3, etc and then you get matched up with your preference as much as possible but that way you still have a good player base with way more excitement.
@@icetea147 well it shouldn't be called rage quitting and it shouldn't be disallowed, if I wanna play a certain map I shouldn't be forced to play another one, refusing to play is the most natural response and is not actually a problem the problem is the entire concept of having a map pool is rubbish, if I wanna play a map then I only play that map and that's it
I was working outside in the garden, when I was on a break I watched viper stream and he was making this video, I extended my break to listen to him. Because it's a really important subject, more pro players that are also content creators need to make video's about this! And I would like that pro players got more say into stuff like this. Is there still no communication between pro players and devs?
One random thing I have been wanting to see a while now is just..getting arena out of the map pool every rotation, and maybe replace it with fortress, which just feels more enjoyable.
I would love that change (RM map pool being similar to current big tournament map pool). If not, maybe devs can do this for quickplay queues which AFAIK are completely dead.
I really appreciate this discussion about maps; it's an essential topic for every player. The primary issue here is that casual players seem to have different expectations compared to pro players. I completely understand that pro players might get bored since they play daily and crave some variety. On the other hand, casual players often feel overwhelmed by the added complexity (and I can relate to that). That's why I'd love to see more individuality in the map selection. Give pro players the variety they desire, while also allowing casual players to have more ban options. This way, everyone can be happy :) In my opinion, it has always been one of the game's beauties, that everyone can have fun with it.
They could also add a gamemode like a recent TCI tournament but in smaller version like BO3 or BO5 with map and civ selection. It will be more fun to play I think.
Would they have a lot (more) of quitters if they had more maps available? It seems as if the best option would be to have the maps, for voting, randomly selected from the pool of all maps, giving them each a class (ex.: Arena, Hideout, and other pre-walled maps are in a class; island maps are in another class; two-TC starts are a class; etc.) Maybe, it could even go as far as always giving you one option from each class. I feel as if that would have less quitting. Even though, there would always be a chance to get your favorite map, it would be a small chance. If there was no chance, you might not play. If there was a guaranteed chance (it’s in the small pool), you would quit until you finally get to play it. Of course, the game might already suspend you if you quit too often. It would certainly have more variety (or “variation,” as Viper phrased it.)
It is so weird that for you guys it seems like all closed maps are same - but I totally feel the difference in Michi to BF to fortress to hideout to arena being wastly different. Also I see more real variety in closed maps because of early-castle cutting, early castle rush either possible for winning or not for winning. Also a lot of non-meta strategies like cutting with ballista elephants (through the little wood) around 12 minute in fortress while the other is still in feudal is more usual on closed maps while open maps tend towards more meta-only gameplay, except some exceptions. Also some of the maps you talk about are totally open maps: golden pit? Very open. Coastal? Half-open (and actually very interesting play style - it was my fav map in the OG game btw) and african clearing is very open map. If you walk towards the forest line in the edge, I will boom you down with fast-castle in the middle by fishing - there however you are totally hard to defend against scouts rushing fishing people or LC in the side of map - until castle time. So totally can go feudal agression and not so wallable map except the sides. One of the maps with most real variety. Oh and megarandom is more often than not also a very open map - I honestly get it much more times to be open than not so my reflex is totally not a fast-castle there, but feudal agression opening. Previously megarandom was less random and more always open, but I prefer it being "more random" nowadays. More variety would be welcomed though: Even crazy things like "priest nomad" or "water nomad" would be awsome.
I love how you two are constantly literally sharing content but still playing off as if each of you is the best influencer... "No no no. Microsoft come to *me* and *I'll* help you." lol
12 maps(6 categories=2 maps from each category or some distribution like that) + 5 bans. There would still be 7 maps left unbanned. This would mean after finding similar elo player, in the worst case there still would be an overlap of 2 unbanned maps on which the two matched players can play. This way queue times wont be affected at all. If you do 6 or more bans, it could lead to scenarios where 2 players of similar elo, queue up to play but they have no unbanned maps in common, so they can't be matched by queuing system. That would lead to longer queue times or not finding games at all.
So first, I love Empire Wars and feel like it's always pretty easy to always find a game on it. Second, I agree we need more variety on map pool. Not necessarily getting rid of closed maps, but yes, definitely they need to add in more maps to Ranked.
I think that we should have elo brackets and each one votes in a map or two, that way each elo range will have at least one map that they (probably) like, besides just the dev picks Like if you agree | V
Remember the real elo generators of ladder are the ones at 1000- who sacrifice themselves so seminoobs who Hera can beat with one finger could just appear to be above 1000. I think more open map pool would result in them rage uninstalling the game. Besides, though I do like more varieties in the map pool for watching others to play, I really do not want play them myself. Every time a new map appeared, I found myself the only person who didn't master it.😂
Ok, if you guys can suggest to the devs just suggest a new pick/ban options.m learned from other games. For example. Phase 1 Let players pick 8 maps and ban 3. Phase 2 civ pick phase Phase 3 players can see each other maps pool and get to ban 2-3 Additional maps from their opponents map pool. Why and How does this work? Simply by seeing your opponents map pool you can make a strategy around their prefered play style "aka a player picks only cloaed maps" This is in a sense how ban picks work in mobas and alll moba games have been doing this for too long now. So it does have merits.
I feel like that just takes too much time. I'd be cool cause you feel like you're drafting for a tournament, but I think a lot of people just want to get in a game and play.
Interestingly 3 maps are picked by community in the in game vote. I feel like 90% of maps that won are close maps. Lets add the maps from devs that also are closed and here you have results.
I guess the problem is most players are around 1k ELO. Around there it just isn't much fun to hard lose to scout rush or archers because you didn't want to practice build orders. Closed maps let you get to your strategy and play it out.
@SeaBomb If every map was open, and literally every time you played an open map you got rushed, and if every time you got rushed you died, yes. But I didn't say that.The died to rushes can be a 10 or 20% of losses that you don't want.
I perfectly fine with more different maps. But i need number of bans = N-1, where N - number of available maps. Dont know how many of ppls in community wishing it too, just hope to be heard someday
Regarding the civ picking at lower levels, theres a difference between the low begginer (less than 1200) and more regular players (1200-1500). At less than 1200 usually picking civs is not that terrible because most of the games at that level are decided for people chosing the right or the wrong strategy, rather than having the right bonuses/unique units. But at 1300 or 1400 for example where players know at least 2 BO and manage most of basic strategies to a decent level, having Japanese on 4lakes or Mongols on Valley makes a huge difference. I always play random on Arabia, but when i have to play these maps im 99% sure i will face a civ picker who only plays one civ on one map, and dodges in queue anything else.
but, maybe you are afraid of the map meta, and mentally before the game even starts you play onto the enemys hand, you could try to make your own aproach and find what suits you best, the meta is obviously dominant and reliable, but not perfect. Think of arabia, if we had more players playing a certain map, the meta will develope much more, and become much more complex, and that would also lead to more balance requests, so the civ match ups won't be so one sided. arabia is always being modified and balanced, while other maps are just left untouched
7:05 Gotta love the Viper 😁😂 Arch-i-pelago instead of ARK-a-pelago Btw I’m not trying to make fun of him, it just made me smile and wanted to share my moment😄
I checked the options from the last three polls on the forums: Jul 26, Aug 9, and Aug 23 from 2022. Aug 9 team game poll actually has the Seize the Hump (Mountain) map mentioned by Viper, which 28% of people used one of their three votes on. But it doesn't show up in the 1v1 polls. The 1v1 polls got 25% more voters, so a lot of people probably prefer it over team games; so let's ignore the larger variety of maps for team games in the poll and in resulting map pool, and just look at 1v1 options. I've honestly always thought that the main reason Arabia became popular in AoC was that it was the first in the map list when sorted alphabetically. It isn't surprising when people play a map they're familiar with, and Arena and Arabia were definitely the best known maps in AoC. That doesn't mean they're the best maps. Maybe the devs should stop forcing them into the map pool in every cycle. They could select different open and closed maps for the static picks (the ones players don't vote on) and maybe even experiment with different voting methods, like being able to somehow designate a map as a strong favourite over any other votes cast. The ideal method might be to somehow compensate for maps being voted on just because players are familiar with them, but that might be seen as too opaque an outcome compared to just taking the top results in a poll. Maybe they could just do this when deciding which maps to put in the next poll: prefer maps that haven't been in the ranked map pool recently but still got a lot of votes.
So... why devs cant make a system when you choose from ALL MAPS the maps that you want to play? Not sure about both of players who forced to play islands (p1 arabia pl, p2 arena pl and so on) does they having fun? Map pool system is just pure compulsion , that hiding behind "democracy".
Well, the problem with putting all 30-something (don't know the exact number) maps up for choice is that it lowers the probability for you to get a map you want even further, slows down the queue, etc. So if you want the 5/6 maps you practiced, but have those 30-something maps in total, that everyone has practiced different ones of and wants to get, the probability to get the ones you want is lower and you have to start compromising. Of course you still have that problem with the weekly map rotation, where one week your favorite maps are online, the other week none of them, but then you can still put 3 days into practicing these specific maps and still have 4 days to play them, while you don't have the opportunity to do any of that with all maps in the pool. So increasing the map pool to include 10-15 maps would have the healthy balance of you getting the maps you want and practiced, while also gently increasing the amount of times you have to play maps you only semi-like, and get better on those. Hope this makes sense and you know what I mean. Peace
@@Lodit24 What the problem with no pool? 30 or so maps that's will never be even in 15 maps pool, just because somebody votes for hideout, golden pit, baltic and so on. I'm standing position of humane: if person wants to play only arabia 24/7 why we would to disturb him? Longer queue much better than being forced to play a map you don't want to (at least i would rather wait longer to play what i want).
@@johnpenetrucci5647 I get the point you are trying to make, but from what I see, the player base isn't big enough right now to support this idea. For example, you used Arabia, probably AoE2s most famous map, in your example. But what if someone wants to play a map that many players don't like, that bumps the queue time up quite a bit, if you only want to play that map. You also have to keep in mind that the most important thing is that people get opponents with a similar elo, which is undoubtedly more important than the map choice. Now if someone wants to play maps hardly anyone likes and still wants to get opponents with a similar elo, there's a chance the queue for the game is nearly as long as the game itself. This is what the rotation system is trying to mitigate, by letting the community vote for the most commonly wanted maps to play. Again, I get the point you're trying to make, but the player base would need to be much larger to support the system you're proposing. For now the best thing that could be done is creating a larger map pool, and always putting in some random map that wasn't in the map pool for some time, so that people who like that map have a reason to play ranked, and not only the people who like more famous maps.
@@Lodit24 Yeah, it's pleasure to talking like that. Just googled some stats: Arabia (most popular what is obviously) played in 77%, arena (second popular) in 9.3%, megarandom in 6.8%. I'm as arena player mainly want to play arena. BUT i would play nomad-like maps also and try some maps that never been in map pool. I so tired of this system because i and my opponent, most likely, has to play map that we don't want. I would even be happy if devs will make a kinda symbiosis of MM and lobby system, with same rating for both. Everything to get out of this swamp. But as you said community is too small and too lazy...
The map pools for ranked by far the worst thing about playing ranked feels like have the maps should be a different gamemode/que altogether. Especially for us noobies that want standard maps so we can get good.
Here's a disagree perspective - Just like people choose civs at lower elos, they also favor certain map types. And they'll Alt+F4 their way out of maps they don't like. More variety will invariably affect queue times at lower levels.
no shit Hera, nobody likes open maps, we all like walls and lategame fun, we arent here to get rushed for the dozen time by archers and scouts, we hate that shit.
Not sure who we is but by far the most frequented map is Arabia with over 60-70% of players. The problem atm is lower elo players voting (in a really boring, stale way) for the same closed maps every vote rather than opening their mind and trying different things out.
@@210ATO il be honest i dont understand how Arabia is the most popular, i personally cant stand it, and the few people i barely convince to even play vs people hate it too. The vast majority dont even play vs players, so having more defensive maps is perfect to get them going. Makes no sense to me to play a map where you get rushed by scouts at 13 minutes... or archers at 17, it's so boring, didnt even get to castle age and the game is over, it's shit. Late game full 200 pop fights its where the fun is. Why do you think the fan favorite is Black forrest type maps
@@DissarayJay It would probably surprise you to hear then that most of my Arabia games go to imp, 175 up to 200 pop the norm, unless someone commits to all in castle push. I do remember that frustration though - just thinking that Arabia/ Nomad etc are all about feudal wars. Once you defend scouts (even with just one pikeman) or build a tower/ skirms for archers, it does get easier. I say this as a busy, older man who can make the meta work and that's when it gets enjoyable I guess. Also, if those maps frustrate you, think about what counters the best - I had a lot of fun with camel civs and getting good with them because so many played with Franks. Don't get me wrong, I have had good fun on Black Forest too but the age it takes to get to a battle, I don't really have time for anymore. GLHF!
Low elo have 2 civs and we just always play them no matter. Imagine someone always playing Japanese (cough sotl) and being average but some maps they're actually really cool and fun. Also at lower elo civ strength is less impactful so civ picking doesn't matter. I'm just always picking Vietnamese no matter the map. I just wish we could pick open land maps and just get 5 random open land maps to play. Rather than getting some nomad. Imagine this, I'm trying to bring a friend in. We play some Arabia against AI. Then we queue up and get nomad and they're like wtf is this. It's just so random and not really fun. Give people the chance to play what they want.
It has nothing to do with noobs, imir has to do with viewers wanting to see "Age of empires" nor "age id scout/ archer rush" And to be fair, as good as i am in RTS i agree with the viewer. I've seen hera feudal age SO MANY TIMES i literally can copy him to perfection " and i did it as an experiment before" it is not even fun to watch anymore. Viewers want some bad ass all out unique techs/units/ strategies war. It is a fair ask for the viewers, the life line of the game.
Well, tournments without viewers won't exist and viewers won't watch a tournment that ends in scout/archer rush 15 out of 21 times. Trust me, it is boring for most viewers, the life line if any tournement
i dont know if my opinion is relevant because i havent played ladder, a major reason for that are the maps, i really dont like full on water maps and i hate arabia
- Have 15 maps. - Arrange them in a 5x3 rectangle. - You get to ban 2 columns. - You get to ban a map from each column. - You find a player near your Elo, ignoring which maps they have banned. - At most 4 columns are banned, so at least 1 column is open. - At most 2 maps from that column are banned, so at least 1 map is open. - You get to play a map. - Queue times don't increase. - But you had 9 bans in a pool with 15 maps.
Viper is so so right!! I'm so annoyed with the shitty map pool. I really crave the awsome maps that are played in the toernament. We get the same shitty maps over and over.
@hera if you read, here is what you guys might be missing about this with your openion., you can ask the OGs for the reasons. but it could simoly be because they need the tournment/ladder to be fun for the viewer/customer. and let me tell you NO VIEWER/customer wants to see or play 15/21 games ending in scout/ archer rush. Not most if us anyway. I mean, if anything, i end up skipping all the feudal age sometimes when i watch some videos unless it is romans just to see some fresh romans zombie MAA. i swear i've memorized every move you guys do in that age 😂😂😂😂 Many if not most Ppl want to see ages and want to see unique units and techs. Theh want ti see sicilians fiesr crusade, or ssracens mamelukes. Or mangudai, and sick strategies with gg units. Or upsets.... you get what i mean. Just remember, a tournement/game is not really about the competitors, it is about the viewers/consumers. Without the viewers there will be no competitors. That said, it does not have to be 3 arena/maps. Any map which balances between feudal and castle snd imperial should be fine. You guys just need a solution for sure. But as viper said, maybe just add morr bans.
Sounds like you are selling your personal taste as a fact for most people. A lot of people enjoy playing and watching that, and a lot of people don't. I, for instance, rarely enjoy watching lategame maps since the game becomes way less dynamic for when it comes to pushing, is extremely stale as a format and since there are almost zero opportunities for early damage the meta is all about slow, hard to stop pushes and good economy. So don't pass that as a matter of fact for the majority of the playerbase, there is a reason why the most picked map is Arabia. Also views for tournaments have been quite good as of late, so I don't see your issue. The issue is that, especially if you enjoy open maps the most, the choice is often either Arabia or nothing else despite having so many cool maps.
Maybe there could be campaign maps to make some diversity. And to make things interesting, even some ai action included so you could use trade or something to spice things up.
In my opinion, i agree with the more variety, the better. But what i would love to see is a couple of purist map ladders. I mean you can have a 1v1 Arabia, 1v1 Arena and 4v4 Rage Forest ladders since those maps are played a lot. That, instead of EW is better imo.
Nice video
Thank you i made it myself
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Viper and Hera have a similar style of humor and it plays really well together😂😂😂. By far the two funniest on the pro scene.
cant wait for Viper reacts to Hera reacting to Vipers video
Can't wait for Hera reacting to Viper reacting to Hera reacting to Vipers video.
can't wait for some fag to reply with a "reactception" comment
Can't wait for Viper reacting to hera reacting to viper reacting to hera reaction to viper's video
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ded
It would actually be great to play the maps we watch in tournaments!
100%
True. Imagine if we get the few weeks of the tournament only with that map pool. It’ll be fun
I suggested this a few weeks ago in a Q&A to a dev about why tournament maps don't rotate in. Maybe he was taking notes. Certainly it helps if the top players address this as well.
Nili and T90 catching some strays on the EW take lol.. true tho
4:30 unpopular opinion: they should have kicked out empire wars and put return of rome there-so the multiplayer has at least a chance...
3:44 you cannot put Michi to the same category as the other maps. Michi is special, the ultimate closed map.
By the way, I think you and Viper should create a new formate where one of you discuss a controversial topic and the other has to react. After 5 videos you two discuss together about the last 5 videos or so.
6:20 ying and Yang a really cool team game map. I suggest you play this with Liereyy against Viper and Jordan
(insider tip:D)
Hera woke up saw vipers video and was like "I should make a video about this too but thats alot of effort... wait I have an idea"
TLDR: The learning curve is already so steep. Be cautious when considering changes that would add even more complexity for an entry level player
When I started playing ranked, I focused on a single civ (based on a recommendation in one of your videos). I figured out how to execute simple build orders. Then I got more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the other civs and how to counter them while spreading to a few new civs. Now I'm trying to start playing random civs, building off this foundation. I've got to ~1200 elo in 450 games played.
The learning curve is already STEEP in this game. There is so much to learn. 43 civs, about a half-dozen viable openings, hotkeys, micro, macro. I think this map pool discussion is really reserved for players at the upper-intermediate to pro level, where you've already learned the civs (mostly), have the technical skills, and where the given map and matchup determine the viable strategies. This is just not where most of the player pool is at.
As a primarily arabia player, almost every non-arabia game I play is lopsided, either because my opponent only knows how to FC and we play an open map, or because they pick that specific map and have a prepared strategy for it, while I don't even know how many boars to expect. Whether or not the map would be fun, the games are not because they are generally not competitive.
I don't mind these matchups so much now that I've got more games under my belt and I'm getting better at making in-game adjustments, but when I was just starting out, it was a real drag. Especially if I was only going to play 1-2 games that day. My solution would be allow for unlimited bans. Players should only have to play the maps they want to play. Let us all learn at our own pace. I don't play ladder to see my world ranking, I play to get a game with an opponent near my skill level, so that we can have a competitive game (and improve in the long run)
This is exactly why adding more civs is good only for the casual players
8:39 “Variation is the spice of life”
Can I say this to my wife?
u can try but i wont be there to defend u 11
"T90 and Nilli ranked #1 and #2" ahahahahahahah wow - shots fired buds.
I do feel like TCI's BO21 has definitely helped reinforce Viper's entire standpoint since you made the map pool so large and so many games are being played.
I think there can be pools by categories so 3 closed maps can't be selected. And adding exhausted maps system where specific maps elected a lot would be cool.
To experience the great variety of maps this game has to offer, one really just needs to take a look at one or two sets of the champions invitational. Felt like there was so much variety in there.
I feel like their shouldn't be any bans, there should be a ranking of preferences. They should have like 12 maps, you rank the number 1, 2 ,3, etc and then you get matched up with your preference as much as possible but that way you still have a good player base with way more excitement.
Problem at the lower levels there is a lot of rage quits in team games if they don’t like the map that is queued up for them.
@@naveendennis its not an issue if you get a ban from queue for ragequit
@@icetea147 well it shouldn't be called rage quitting and it shouldn't be disallowed, if I wanna play a certain map I shouldn't be forced to play another one, refusing to play is the most natural response and is not actually a problem the problem is the entire concept of having a map pool is rubbish, if I wanna play a map then I only play that map and that's it
@@icetea147then it would most likely be rage uninstall. People quit the map where they have 45- percent win rate, that's natural.
@@fuyoutubeckif you don't value your teammates time then don't play team games. Your take is brain-dead
I was working outside in the garden, when I was on a break I watched viper stream and he was making this video, I extended my break to listen to him. Because it's a really important subject, more pro players that are also content creators need to make video's about this! And I would like that pro players got more say into stuff like this. Is there still no communication between pro players and devs?
Hera with the sleepy just woke up face, like a co-worker who was running late
Apart from the 'big two' (Big four for TGs), a map *shouldn't be allowed back in the pool for at least a month* after it's had a week in.
One random thing I have been wanting to see a while now is just..getting arena out of the map pool every rotation, and maybe replace it with fortress, which just feels more enjoyable.
I would love that change (RM map pool being similar to current big tournament map pool). If not, maybe devs can do this for quickplay queues which AFAIK are completely dead.
Hera's channel might not be the optimal place to say this :D But if the best player of all time drops a video like this, microsoft should listen!
Daut made a video about this as well?
@@donaldfarquar ist that a question or a statement?
Viper is the GOAT
I really appreciate this discussion about maps; it's an essential topic for every player. The primary issue here is that casual players seem to have different expectations compared to pro players. I completely understand that pro players might get bored since they play daily and crave some variety. On the other hand, casual players often feel overwhelmed by the added complexity (and I can relate to that). That's why I'd love to see more individuality in the map selection. Give pro players the variety they desire, while also allowing casual players to have more ban options. This way, everyone can be happy :) In my opinion, it has always been one of the game's beauties, that everyone can have fun with it.
They could also add a gamemode like a recent TCI tournament but in smaller version like BO3 or BO5 with map and civ selection. It will be more fun to play I think.
Would they have a lot (more) of quitters if they had more maps available? It seems as if the best option would be to have the maps, for voting, randomly selected from the pool of all maps, giving them each a class (ex.: Arena, Hideout, and other pre-walled maps are in a class; island maps are in another class; two-TC starts are a class; etc.) Maybe, it could even go as far as always giving you one option from each class.
I feel as if that would have less quitting. Even though, there would always be a chance to get your favorite map, it would be a small chance. If there was no chance, you might not play. If there was a guaranteed chance (it’s in the small pool), you would quit until you finally get to play it. Of course, the game might already suspend you if you quit too often.
It would certainly have more variety (or “variation,” as Viper phrased it.)
4:37 damn Hera with the sick burns
It is so weird that for you guys it seems like all closed maps are same - but I totally feel the difference in Michi to BF to fortress to hideout to arena being wastly different.
Also I see more real variety in closed maps because of early-castle cutting, early castle rush either possible for winning or not for winning. Also a lot of non-meta strategies like cutting with ballista elephants (through the little wood) around 12 minute in fortress while the other is still in feudal is more usual on closed maps while open maps tend towards more meta-only gameplay, except some exceptions.
Also some of the maps you talk about are totally open maps: golden pit? Very open. Coastal? Half-open (and actually very interesting play style - it was my fav map in the OG game btw) and african clearing is very open map. If you walk towards the forest line in the edge, I will boom you down with fast-castle in the middle by fishing - there however you are totally hard to defend against scouts rushing fishing people or LC in the side of map - until castle time. So totally can go feudal agression and not so wallable map except the sides. One of the maps with most real variety.
Oh and megarandom is more often than not also a very open map - I honestly get it much more times to be open than not so my reflex is totally not a fast-castle there, but feudal agression opening. Previously megarandom was less random and more always open, but I prefer it being "more random" nowadays.
More variety would be welcomed though: Even crazy things like "priest nomad" or "water nomad" would be awsome.
Lowlands recently was a fun map to have in the map pool!
Its true, the Map pool is absolutely DRAMATIC, this is the only flaw of the game IMO
Democracy was a bad idea. Sub 1000 players are voting for closed maps
2:16 I'm at 02:16 and I cant stop staring at the beard fuzz. A+ video, still.
Yeah those are some great suggestions
I love how you two are constantly literally sharing content but still playing off as if each of you is the best influencer...
"No no no. Microsoft come to *me* and *I'll* help you." lol
We should get the maps from S-Tier tournaments! This would great a feeling "Pro" in the ladder! That`s would be great!
Agree with the Goats, definitely want to play CHAOS PIT!
12 maps(6 categories=2 maps from each category or some distribution like that) + 5 bans. There would still be 7 maps left unbanned. This would mean after finding similar elo player, in the worst case there still would be an overlap of 2 unbanned maps on which the two matched players can play.
This way queue times wont be affected at all.
If you do 6 or more bans, it could lead to scenarios where 2 players of similar elo, queue up to play but they have no unbanned maps in common, so they can't be matched by queuing system. That would lead to longer queue times or not finding games at all.
So first, I love Empire Wars and feel like it's always pretty easy to always find a game on it. Second, I agree we need more variety on map pool. Not necessarily getting rid of closed maps, but yes, definitely they need to add in more maps to Ranked.
I think most people wants something like voobly where the people create game and discover map and custom stuff
Totally agree!
"No no no, come to meee, I'll give you the maps. Trust trust trust" 11111111111111111111111111
I think that we should have elo brackets and each one votes in a map or two, that way each elo range will have at least one map that they (probably) like, besides just the dev picks
Like if you agree
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V
Remember the real elo generators of ladder are the ones at 1000- who sacrifice themselves so seminoobs who Hera can beat with one finger could just appear to be above 1000. I think more open map pool would result in them rage uninstalling the game.
Besides, though I do like more varieties in the map pool for watching others to play, I really do not want play them myself. Every time a new map appeared, I found myself the only person who didn't master it.😂
Thats why theres bans and favorite map
They would still win half their games on the open maps!
T90 and Nili catching strays 😂😂
No no no, Microsoft, come to me, I'll see what Viper and Hera are playing and I'll let you know!
Ok, if you guys can suggest to the devs just suggest a new pick/ban options.m learned from other games. For example.
Phase 1 Let players pick 8 maps and ban 3.
Phase 2 civ pick phase
Phase 3 players can see each other maps pool and get to ban 2-3 Additional maps from their opponents map pool.
Why and How does this work?
Simply by seeing your opponents map pool you can make a strategy around their prefered play style "aka a player picks only cloaed maps"
This is in a sense how ban picks work in mobas and alll moba games have been doing this for too long now. So it does have merits.
I feel like that just takes too much time. I'd be cool cause you feel like you're drafting for a tournament, but I think a lot of people just want to get in a game and play.
it can be all open map one pool, and then all closed map the next pool..
Interestingly 3 maps are picked by community in the in game vote. I feel like 90% of maps that won are close maps. Lets add the maps from devs that also are closed and here you have results.
4:45
What a roast!
link to the original video ?
Would be great if we could just que into an open map pool or a closed map pool also
Nice to see. Can you link to his video in the description for the lazy people? I already watched it, but just so he can get views too. ❤
I guess the problem is most players are around 1k ELO. Around there it just isn't much fun to hard lose to scout rush or archers because you didn't want to practice build orders. Closed maps let you get to your strategy and play it out.
Except if you lose, your elo will go down until you return to a 50/50 win-loss ratio, so this argument doesn't make sense.
@@SeaBomb
I don't see the contradiction.
You can be 50:50 win loss and still be coming up against rushes in open maps that you don't want to face.
@SeaBomb
If every map was open, and literally every time you played an open map you got rushed, and if every time you got rushed you died, yes. But I didn't say that.The died to rushes can be a 10 or 20% of losses that you don't want.
Hera ftw
I perfectly fine with more different maps. But i need number of bans = N-1, where N - number of available maps. Dont know how many of ppls in community wishing it too, just hope to be heard someday
Regarding the civ picking at lower levels, theres a difference between the low begginer (less than 1200) and more regular players (1200-1500). At less than 1200 usually picking civs is not that terrible because most of the games at that level are decided for people chosing the right or the wrong strategy, rather than having the right bonuses/unique units. But at 1300 or 1400 for example where players know at least 2 BO and manage most of basic strategies to a decent level, having Japanese on 4lakes or Mongols on Valley makes a huge difference. I always play random on Arabia, but when i have to play these maps im 99% sure i will face a civ picker who only plays one civ on one map, and dodges in queue anything else.
but, maybe you are afraid of the map meta, and mentally before the game even starts you play onto the enemys hand, you could try to make your own aproach and find what suits you best, the meta is obviously dominant and reliable, but not perfect. Think of arabia, if we had more players playing a certain map, the meta will develope much more, and become much more complex, and that would also lead to more balance requests, so the civ match ups won't be so one sided. arabia is always being modified and balanced, while other maps are just left untouched
I agree man, what u just said is the most annoying thing about ranked. Everyone have this one strat they perfect and that's it
7:05 Gotta love the Viper 😁😂
Arch-i-pelago instead of ARK-a-pelago
Btw I’m not trying to make fun of him, it just made me smile and wanted to share my moment😄
Viper's argument: We have too many maps that plays the same strat.
Viper's inner argument: Democracy doesn't work.
I checked the options from the last three polls on the forums: Jul 26, Aug 9, and Aug 23 from 2022. Aug 9 team game poll actually has the Seize the Hump (Mountain) map mentioned by Viper, which 28% of people used one of their three votes on. But it doesn't show up in the 1v1 polls. The 1v1 polls got 25% more voters, so a lot of people probably prefer it over team games; so let's ignore the larger variety of maps for team games in the poll and in resulting map pool, and just look at 1v1 options.
I've honestly always thought that the main reason Arabia became popular in AoC was that it was the first in the map list when sorted alphabetically. It isn't surprising when people play a map they're familiar with, and Arena and Arabia were definitely the best known maps in AoC. That doesn't mean they're the best maps. Maybe the devs should stop forcing them into the map pool in every cycle. They could select different open and closed maps for the static picks (the ones players don't vote on) and maybe even experiment with different voting methods, like being able to somehow designate a map as a strong favourite over any other votes cast.
The ideal method might be to somehow compensate for maps being voted on just because players are familiar with them, but that might be seen as too opaque an outcome compared to just taking the top results in a poll. Maybe they could just do this when deciding which maps to put in the next poll: prefer maps that haven't been in the ranked map pool recently but still got a lot of votes.
i dont think of african clearing is a fc map, it feels like a fast feudal scout map.
So... why devs cant make a system when you choose from ALL MAPS the maps that you want to play? Not sure about both of players who forced to play islands (p1 arabia pl, p2 arena pl and so on) does they having fun? Map pool system is just pure compulsion , that hiding behind "democracy".
Well, the problem with putting all 30-something (don't know the exact number) maps up for choice is that it lowers the probability for you to get a map you want even further, slows down the queue, etc.
So if you want the 5/6 maps you practiced, but have those 30-something maps in total, that everyone has practiced different ones of and wants to get, the probability to get the ones you want is lower and you have to start compromising.
Of course you still have that problem with the weekly map rotation, where one week your favorite maps are online, the other week none of them, but then you can still put 3 days into practicing these specific maps and still have 4 days to play them, while you don't have the opportunity to do any of that with all maps in the pool.
So increasing the map pool to include 10-15 maps would have the healthy balance of you getting the maps you want and practiced, while also gently increasing the amount of times you have to play maps you only semi-like, and get better on those.
Hope this makes sense and you know what I mean.
Peace
@@Lodit24 What the problem with no pool? 30 or so maps that's will never be even in 15 maps pool, just because somebody votes for hideout, golden pit, baltic and so on. I'm standing position of humane: if person wants to play only arabia 24/7 why we would to disturb him? Longer queue much better than being forced to play a map you don't want to (at least i would rather wait longer to play what i want).
@@johnpenetrucci5647 I get the point you are trying to make, but from what I see, the player base isn't big enough right now to support this idea. For example, you used Arabia, probably AoE2s most famous map, in your example. But what if someone wants to play a map that many players don't like, that bumps the queue time up quite a bit, if you only want to play that map. You also have to keep in mind that the most important thing is that people get opponents with a similar elo, which is undoubtedly more important than the map choice. Now if someone wants to play maps hardly anyone likes and still wants to get opponents with a similar elo, there's a chance the queue for the game is nearly as long as the game itself. This is what the rotation system is trying to mitigate, by letting the community vote for the most commonly wanted maps to play.
Again, I get the point you're trying to make, but the player base would need to be much larger to support the system you're proposing. For now the best thing that could be done is creating a larger map pool, and always putting in some random map that wasn't in the map pool for some time, so that people who like that map have a reason to play ranked, and not only the people who like more famous maps.
@@Lodit24 Yeah, it's pleasure to talking like that. Just googled some stats: Arabia (most popular what is obviously) played in 77%, arena (second popular) in 9.3%, megarandom in 6.8%. I'm as arena player mainly want to play arena. BUT i would play nomad-like maps also and try some maps that never been in map pool. I so tired of this system because i and my opponent, most likely, has to play map that we don't want.
I would even be happy if devs will make a kinda symbiosis of MM and lobby system, with same rating for both. Everything to get out of this swamp. But as you said community is too small and too lazy...
I defo always want to play the tourney maps
The map pools for ranked by far the worst thing about playing ranked feels like have the maps should be a different gamemode/que altogether. Especially for us noobies that want standard maps so we can get good.
they should add a random map option to ranked
Its called random map
@@arniehgk "Rsndom" in term of different maps, not random generation of specific map.
Here's a disagree perspective - Just like people choose civs at lower elos, they also favor certain map types. And they'll Alt+F4 their way out of maps they don't like. More variety will invariably affect queue times at lower levels.
Where is the 9-vil-start-part?^^
We are waiting for Viper's video reacting to Hera's video reacting to Viper's video
Hera, you suggested some time ago that there should be a ranked lobby system over matchmaking and getting random maps. Has your stance changed then?
for TGs for sure I want that, for 1v1 the queue is fine
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 I see, thx for the answer :)
The problem is that almost the middle ladeer like 1k elo, so that players don't like Open maps. When i was that rated i loved to play arena, michi, bf
Don't know who this viper guy is but he's got some good ideas, I'm sure he'll do well in the ladder some day
Looks like Hera just got up lol
yep 11
4:36 roasssssssst
Viper reacting to T90 reacting to MBL reacting to Hera reacting to Viper
11 Hera lamed Vipers video! This is so funny! 😂😂😂
It should be noted that the team map pool is just as bad, if not worse than the 1v1 pool
hera based god
Make empire war great again!!!
I love playing this mode!
Hera bruh.. you need sleep man! Thanks for this though.
no shit Hera, nobody likes open maps, we all like walls and lategame fun, we arent here to get rushed for the dozen time by archers and scouts, we hate that shit.
Not sure who we is but by far the most frequented map is Arabia with over 60-70% of players. The problem atm is lower elo players voting (in a really boring, stale way) for the same closed maps every vote rather than opening their mind and trying different things out.
@@210ATO il be honest i dont understand how Arabia is the most popular, i personally cant stand it, and the few people i barely convince to even play vs people hate it too. The vast majority dont even play vs players, so having more defensive maps is perfect to get them going.
Makes no sense to me to play a map where you get rushed by scouts at 13 minutes... or archers at 17, it's so boring, didnt even get to castle age and the game is over, it's shit. Late game full 200 pop fights its where the fun is.
Why do you think the fan favorite is Black forrest type maps
@@DissarayJay It would probably surprise you to hear then that most of my Arabia games go to imp, 175 up to 200 pop the norm, unless someone commits to all in castle push. I do remember that frustration though - just thinking that Arabia/ Nomad etc are all about feudal wars. Once you defend scouts (even with just one pikeman) or build a tower/ skirms for archers, it does get easier. I say this as a busy, older man who can make the meta work and that's when it gets enjoyable I guess. Also, if those maps frustrate you, think about what counters the best - I had a lot of fun with camel civs and getting good with them because so many played with Franks. Don't get me wrong, I have had good fun on Black Forest too but the age it takes to get to a battle, I don't really have time for anymore. GLHF!
Not much of a commenter… 1100 elo, 100% agree!
Low elo have 2 civs and we just always play them no matter. Imagine someone always playing Japanese (cough sotl) and being average but some maps they're actually really cool and fun.
Also at lower elo civ strength is less impactful so civ picking doesn't matter. I'm just always picking Vietnamese no matter the map.
I just wish we could pick open land maps and just get 5 random open land maps to play. Rather than getting some nomad.
Imagine this, I'm trying to bring a friend in. We play some Arabia against AI. Then we queue up and get nomad and they're like wtf is this. It's just so random and not really fun. Give people the chance to play what they want.
As a noob I play Arabia and Arena. In arabia you get to think more, in arena u learn to counter the units.
The issue is the fact that we get to vote, most players are noobs and most noobs will vote for Tunnel and Michi whenever they see it.
well for us noobs this maps are alot of fun tbh
It has nothing to do with noobs, imir has to do with viewers wanting to see "Age of empires" nor "age id scout/ archer rush"
And to be fair, as good as i am in RTS i agree with the viewer. I've seen hera feudal age SO MANY TIMES i literally can copy him to perfection " and i did it as an experiment before"
it is not even fun to watch anymore.
Viewers want some bad ass all out unique techs/units/ strategies war.
It is a fair ask for the viewers, the life line of the game.
No more popularity voting. Give us dev/pro player picked classic maps + recent tournament maps, thank you.
Well, tournments without viewers won't exist and viewers won't watch a tournment that ends in scout/archer rush 15 out of 21 times.
Trust me, it is boring for most viewers, the life line if any tournement
@@ryanforgo3500 cleary you havent been watching tournaments then. Opinion disregarded. Try again.
i dont know if my opinion is relevant because i havent played ladder, a major reason for that are the maps, i really dont like full on water maps and i hate arabia
- Have 15 maps.
- Arrange them in a 5x3 rectangle.
- You get to ban 2 columns.
- You get to ban a map from each column.
- You find a player near your Elo, ignoring which maps they have banned.
- At most 4 columns are banned, so at least 1 column is open.
- At most 2 maps from that column are banned, so at least 1 map is open.
- You get to play a map.
- Queue times don't increase.
- But you had 9 bans in a pool with 15 maps.
👍🏻
Mangrove Jungel Washington cool.
i cant understand half of what hera is saying😭
haha took the video from viper and the ending from MKBHD, savage O:-)
Viper is so so right!! I'm so annoyed with the shitty map pool. I really crave the awsome maps that are played in the toernament. We get the same shitty maps over and over.
@hera if you read,
here is what you guys might be missing about this with your openion., you can ask the OGs for the reasons.
but it could simoly be because they need the tournment/ladder to be fun for the viewer/customer. and let me tell you NO VIEWER/customer wants to see or play 15/21 games ending in scout/ archer rush. Not most if us anyway. I mean, if anything, i end up skipping all the feudal age sometimes when i watch some videos unless it is romans just to see some fresh romans zombie MAA. i swear i've memorized every move you guys do in that age 😂😂😂😂
Many if not most Ppl want to see ages and want to see unique units and techs. Theh want ti see sicilians fiesr crusade, or ssracens mamelukes. Or mangudai, and sick strategies with gg units. Or upsets.... you get what i mean.
Just remember, a tournement/game is not really about the competitors, it is about the viewers/consumers. Without the viewers there will be no competitors.
That said, it does not have to be 3 arena/maps. Any map which balances between feudal and castle snd imperial should be fine.
You guys just need a solution for sure. But as viper said, maybe just add morr bans.
Sounds like you are selling your personal taste as a fact for most people.
A lot of people enjoy playing and watching that, and a lot of people don't.
I, for instance, rarely enjoy watching lategame maps since the game becomes way less dynamic for when it comes to pushing, is extremely stale as a format and since there are almost zero opportunities for early damage the meta is all about slow, hard to stop pushes and good economy.
So don't pass that as a matter of fact for the majority of the playerbase, there is a reason why the most picked map is Arabia.
Also views for tournaments have been quite good as of late, so I don't see your issue.
The issue is that, especially if you enjoy open maps the most, the choice is often either Arabia or nothing else despite having so many cool maps.
Lombardia gang where you at?
You look tired Hera. What happened?
just woke up
its cause 99% of players are low elo that like chill play
gg
4:36 1111111111
The current 1v1 map pool makes me not even want to play. All boring closed or late game maps
Not the Viper we know 11
Maybe there could be campaign maps to make some diversity. And to make things interesting, even some ai action included so you could use trade or something to spice things up.
Poor T90
In my opinion, i agree with the more variety, the better. But what i would love to see is a couple of purist map ladders. I mean you can have a 1v1 Arabia, 1v1 Arena and 4v4 Rage Forest ladders since those maps are played a lot. That, instead of EW is better imo.
Hera you look so tired. Sleep some time plz!
Sometimes i wait to play more often until the maps change… great suggestion video…the maps SUCK!
Nit to most viewers i tell ya
@@ryanforgo3500whaaaat???