I've been saying this all along, I generally advise my clients not to spend a lot of money on capacitors. The Russian military PIO caps look really great in a guitar and can be had for about $3.00 each. You are right, in that the brain is a fascinating thing to study. The way it interprets everything our senses experience and the way memory shades or perceptions is fascinating to me. The science in all this stuff just doesn't lie - but unfortunately there will be those who won't believe it no matter how much proof you have. They will always come back with "But I know there's a difference because I can hear it", notwithstanding all of your explanations for why that is. I guess it's just scary for a musician or sound engineer to even consider the possibility that they can't trust their ears, when in fact it's their minds they can't trust - their ears work just fine. Thank you for doing this. Like you, I have no horse in the race - only the desire to be as accurate and honest as I can be with my customers and friends. That's what makes this so important to me - not proving anything to anyone.
I don't have the time to read thru every comment, but I would like to address a phenomenon that I experienced with a ceramic capacitor that has led me to favor polypropylene caps in guitars. About 20 years ago, I was doing gear reviews for Guitar One magazine. I received a guitar for review that was clearly intended for high-gain metal players. IIRC, I plugged it into some distortion pedal - a ProCo Ratt? - and then to a Marshall JCM 800 combo, and cranked the volume. Battlefield conditions. The guitar had a faint howl to it, like a microphonic pickup. After poking around for a bit, I discovered that THE CERAMIC CAPACITOR WAS VIBRATING! The cap had a resonant frequency - more of a squeal, actually - that you wouldn't hear at normal volume levels, but became prominent under high-gain, high-volume conditions. When it was cranked like that, I could actually tap on the cap and get a ping-ping sound out of it. IIRC, I replaced the ceramic cap with a poly cap, and it was as quiet as could be. I have not had the inclination to repeat the test. It certainly could have been a rogue cap. But I would invite others to try it and see if they can reproduce the "microphonic cap" phenomenon, as this would be a serious factor in choosing caps for a guitar to be played in a high-gain, high-volume environment.
And that's why I buy 0.022 caps by the hundreds for less than the price of one overpriced "named" cap that is supposed to make your sound ( tone ) " so much better ".
Thanks for your efforts, it's always good to see people using SCIENCE in such applications! I saw the complete "Audio Myths Workshop" video years ago and highly recommend it. ONE thing absolutely worth mentioning about ceramic capacitors (and I haven't seen your other videos except for the original comparison survey) is they are MICROPHONIC, and this is easily demonstrated. Turn your tone control all the way down and tap the ceramic tone cap with something hard, a pencil or screwdriver. You'll hear the tap come out of the amplifier! This does NOT happen with any other capacitor type, and I recommend ceramic caps NOT be used in any audio signal path because of this. Some may want to use "vintage" or "original" caps even if they're ceramics, and like you I can't fault them for that, but they should know that the cap may pick up mechanically transmitted sounds such as pickup switches being thrown. The pickups themselves can do this a little bit as well, but a ceramic tone cap with the tone control in the cut position will add to it.
Thank you A2, for creating and sharing this. I did correctly identify the control test #5's difference, so I feel good about that, but out of the first four tests, I was correct on one, which is exactly my statistical chances of guessing. It wasn't even the paperclip round that I was correct on. Think of the countless variables at play in how we perceive music, and think about all the variables where each of us is "certain we know the difference", but in the end what do we really know? I often think of Keith Richard's, "give me five minutes and I'll make 'em all sound the same". I don't know a person alive who can listen to a song, and then proceed to identify what the player used for stings, body wood, body shape, neck wood, fretboard wood, fret material, cable type, pedal(s), amp(s), capacitors in the guitar, capacitors in the amp, pickups, pickup settings, etc. I do know a lot of people who can hear a song and correctly identify the guitarist.
OK, Mr Collins…. Mr. David Collins…. I just want to say one thing here… one thing only…. THANK YOU!!!! Thank youuuuuuuuuuuu!!! This is such a fucking great survey/test!!!!!!!! I loved it from A to Z. I'm on a guitar project now, and was still wondering about those PIO caps…. I did use them on all my archtops because I noticed a better and more constant roll-off on the tone pot, but never because of tone enhancement (but maybe I was lying to myself…? lol…). But this type of test, like the one you did here, is a godsend! I sat down to eat my dinner after putting the baby to sleep, and I set my laptop in front of me and dialled on youtube. I typed "guitar capacitors" in the search box and I saw the link to your video and clicked. Sure enough, when you said "make sure you play this on good quality speakers or headphones…" I immediately paused you vid and ran to get my top quality studio headphones!!! (good thing I was eating a really good salmon salad with french shallots and aged balsamic vinegar, didn't care if it got cold!!!) anyway, I enjoyed it and learned from it. Thank's for the time and energy, it does make a huge difference… but the best thing is that I could hear your inner voice let go with this profound desire to tell all those schmucks with their fancy capacitors to just go and shuv it…. am I right!??? lol…. Cheers!
Excellent! Despite the difficulty of designing a reasonable blind test in this format, you did a fine job! I wish the human race would adopt this scientific approach to other decisions.
Thanks for doing this test and the other extremely informative videos. I've gained a wealth of information that will narrow the individual trial and error steps I have to take to find the personal tones I am looking for. Obviously this equates to $$ savings that can be applied in a better way than buying components for tests.
I love your videos!! Very informative and credible. I wish you were around before I wasted/spent money on upgrades that I did years ago. I appreciate the detail of information you provide. Thank you!
Thank you for clarifying this topic! I wasn't able to hear differencies, because sooo small that I tried to guess more or less... Zero hit rate... I could only distinguish the paperclip, because of slightly drop of heights- but if I had it in my guitar, I would be content with the sound
The problem I have with this is that 1, it's not just about the audio. The feel (how it affects picking attack /sustain 2 . I believe most people who make the argument that tone caps make a difference are referring to in amplifiers . As a amp builder there is a noticeable difference in feel and tone . In a guitar not so much bc it is in the beginning and is being affected through the tone caps (and a # of other things to factor ) in the amp . Try this test with same brand capacitors that make up the tones tonestack bandwidth of the amp. Then switch nothing else other then a different brand /type capacitors of the same vales and tell me what u think then
I thought I could hear a difference in tests 3 and 4 (and 5, of course) and I guess correctly for those two. But if you told me I was imagining the difference I probably wouldn't argue. There is certainly no obvious difference. My ears are pretty good, too. I have always been able to hear the difference between tube and modelling amps, for example. But after this I can't see a good tonal reason for buying more expensive caps. Thanks for doing the test!
I sell high performance audio for a living and have designed high end speakers for many years. I did get all of them right, running the signal through a very high performance system. However, i wouldn't walk across the room for the incredibly slight difference and frankly guessed at one. I really didn't expect to hear much in this application, band limited signal and the cap being a shunt to ground rather than a series component. Nicely done. Thanks for taking the time. I have bought an EICO capacitance selector that I wire into new guitars so that I can change capacitor values on the fly and determine what I prefer in a given setup.
Coming from an electronic tech perspective, the major frequency response difference will primarily reside above audio frequencies. In the RF world there can be huge differences. Some materials become very leaky with frequency. Great test however.
I totally agree that different types of capacitors don't make any difference in guitar tone circuits, however I'm still unsure as to whether they make a difference in amplifiers. I have changed out capacitors in an amp before and noticed a huge difference in tone, which I believe was large enough to warrant it being an actual difference and not just me thinking there should be a difference. Also because I really didn't know what to expect and was on the fence when doing it. However I still am on the fence as it wasn't scientific due to me not measuring values before and after. It could have even been a bad cap. Who knows. Maybe one day I'll do proper testing.
This is great. I didn't put a tone control in my build because I thought if you left everything on 10 ( which I usually do) it would make no difference.
Late to the party but this was best, controlled, test Ive seen for this popular and frequently misguided topic. Really good. BTW Youre other videos are also well worth the entrance fee....
would love to hear you do a similar blind test on electric guitar tone wood as this is something I've seen mixed results with depending on who and how the tests were done.
So which one was the odd one out in Test 5? Just to testify if I would have qualified. I was right in the first three tests and failed the 4th... so I would really like to know if that was just luck or if I was hearing the difference. Thanks for that great test by the way!
As I too got 3 of 4 correct, in the end I'm still not convinced this was based on actual aural acuity or just chance. So it would be nice to know which was the .015 (odd one out) cap in Test 5. It would be nice if a simple link to a webpage could be included here to find out this info. And if he doesn't want to reveal the answer because he's still collecting survey data great, then how about an update video 6 years later. Otherwise, this simple piece of research has completed and a complete definition of ALL variables is in order, like with any piece of research.
@@MacBlackwell if you read coment just below he gaves the answer. i guessed it right when i did the test myself , quite noticeable change in tone on position B.
Hello, I watched all your videos about capacitors, and they are cool, thank you for that review, Iám a pedal effects manufacturer and I want to tell you that if you want to see the differences between capacitors materials, please try the different materials in a common crybaby or Vox wah wah pedal changing the material capacitors for the 2pcs. .22uF and 2pcs. .01uF they really makes the difference in different materials for the dielectric, try Polyestyrene, Metalyzed Polyester Film, Ceramic, Paper in Oil, Mylar, tantalumm, Silver Mica capacitors, Mica plate capacitors, paper capacitors, paper wax capacitors, etc..., there you are going to hear the increidible differences of tone in a wah wah pedal. Can you make that video?
Different kinds of capacitor have different tolerances. So they can have a different actual value. Some kinds are less susceptible to noise and change of value with age. These are things perhaps could have an effect. Glass capacitors are about the most expensive; be interesting to hear if they make a difference.
Well presented. Agreed that UA-cam compression shouldn't preclude results that are consistent with reality. The difference between .015µF and .022µF is fairly subtle; the fact that 70% of your viewers heard the difference via UA-cam pretty clearly rules out UA-cam compression as an invalidating factor in our opinion. We've had this conversation with Suhr, Fralin, and Lollar, their conclusions mirror your own.
Very Interesting! Great Video, I sub'd! Can't wait to see the video of the "control box" you showed in this, i'm actually designing something similar to that myself! I got almost all of the answers wrong, and I have a good ear for tone/guitar sounds! i always thought there wasn't much difference in types of caps but rather the values. This proved that! Can't wait to see more!
I know this is dated, but the information is great. Good to know that my hearing isn't completely poor as I was able to identify the two extreme cases, i.e. 5 and 2. Seems that would at least acknowledge the engineering application (aka sensitivity) of the capacitor in a tone circuit independent of the frequency spectrum analyses. In short, the magnitude of the difference in capacitance matters. But, it does not necessarily validate that quality, brand, or construction materials of the capacitors. Separately, the quality control of the manufactures could play into the preferences that users may experience. Inconsistent results of a specific capacitor brand or material could certainly impact the users' experiences if compared to the population of users 'opinions'.
I´m realy happy about this video, it means that much less people will be looking after the good PIO caps like Sprague and etc... Please believe to what the video says, please use those ceramic cheap crap caps its do not affect the tone in any way .
It's great to hear you find some advantage in the results. Not all players can be swayed by demonstrable facts and repeatable evidence. If educating the market on facts of how electronics truly work end up lessening demand for the perishable resource of vintage components, this could benefit those who subscribe to metaphysical faith-based tone. Glad I could be of help.
Haha I got the first three no problem! I guess there is a difference. I was gonna do test 4 too but I saw the results before the test so it was spoiled.
Great job with the blind test and controls. Nice to see someone offering data instead of their own personal opinion. (((I could not hear a difference in the odd one out tests and I am an experienced player with a good ear))) - You will get people who have invested too much of their time and money in to propagating the myth to believe even the most clinical test, but I think the test is valid would yield the same results with a larger population sample.
Hey, that must have taken a lot of effort. Good work and thanks for sharing it. Umm, now that you're done, I'll gladly buy your bumble bees (if they have the extra solder hole) for the same price as any cheap ceramic of the same value. Let me relieve you of that burden, it's the least I could do :)
Let me tell you at the beginning that I'm not selling and not producing and not buying expensive capacitors. Unfortunately, the test was biased. It was the unspoken idea that there is no difference and there would be no difference. To prove this, it was only necessary to look for an audio chain whose own distortion is greater than the difference between capacitors. Strongly distorted and dynamically poor sound with a loudspeaker and a microphone chain instead of digitalization of the line-out. I doubt that any difference could be revealed with this setup because of the deliberate distortions. (distortion on guitar, loudspeaker, microphone). Why don't you test capacitors with high quality DAC and SACD recording? Many people believe this test has proved something. This test only proves that it is impossible to tell differences in this installation. I found that many AES member not really interested in the best quality sound. They interested in mass-production. So sound quality is often secondary. So if you want to prove something you will take (unconscious steps to prove that. You'll not tell the nonconscious steps because you don't think they are steps to proove your idea. That's the bias. The parts must be tested with clear sound.
Thanks for doing this. Very elaborate and cool. By throwing out the "losers" on question 5, you qualified the remaining listeners. Therefore, you have shown that on the rest of the tests, the caps with the highest votes sounded the most different. The fact that your instruments can't measure why, doesn't change the fact they sound different, or the votes would be equally off. So different caps, sound different. But I knew that already. And thank you for being honest at 10:01, which in and of itself disqualifies the test, as being produced by someone with an admitted bias. Hard to avoid one though. Next up, every boutique guitar or guitart part vs cheap chinese mass production. Double blind. Turns out we don't "need" anything we buy! Oh, wait......
maybe drill a hole through a small cylinder of tonewood and glue a straightened paperclip tin the ends and then bammo, watched a really anal Throback pickup video, thinking that was about 60% wishfull thinking also
Every human being has its sensors tweaked in a different way. Even, that most of the people belongs to the Normal Bell, there are a few that are far away that bell. This is common to any human ability, and some exceptions include paint colorists (that see color nuances that could never see), perfum designers (that smell nuances that you will never smell) and audio masters (that hear nuances you will never hear). So, if just a 5% of the people hears the difference, means this that there is no difference, at all or that, just an small percentage of the population can hear differences?. I did this blind test, in other great video series, because I KNEW I heard differences and, very specially between PIO caps / Orange Drops and Ceramic caps. To me each cap has a fingerprint, even with the tone pot full open!. I heard the video with quality mixing headphones and, took notes while the several caps where demoed (without telling you which cap was tested) and, I clearly identified PIO / orange drops and ceramics, putting all the rest in a bag. I know I hear the fingerprint of those caps so, someone trying to say me that I cannot hear such a differences, sounds to me as stupid as someone else saying to a paints colorist that he/she cannot distinguish such a color nuances. Said that, the REAL IMPACT in the tone is totally negligible and, any little nuance is lost in the mix, in real application. So, IMHO, there is no discussion about if someone can or cannot hear the differences but, which weight they have in the overall tone and, if they worth the extra cash. My position is very clear: a) if you don't hear the difference, just get the cheapest cap in the world. b) if you don't hear the difference but, you think that to have this or other cap makes your axe sexier, go ahead, it's your money and your personal satisfaction c) if you hear the difference, balance the real enhancement in tone for the money. If you can go with cheaper Sprage Vitamin-Q or Mojotone Vitamin-T, why to spend big money with Russian Military NOS (that, maybe are dried) PIO caps?. d) you hear the difference and want to buy expensive caps because it gives you some halo, then go ahead, hell. It's your axe and your money. Be happy.
yep, i feel stupid. Vitamin Q's for 10 bucks a pop ( i sorta knew there wasn't a difference, why i went ahead and got them anyways... gibson/epi fender/squire... you do too!)
Slight compression? UA-cam adds slight compression? It's huge compression! Especially for such comparsion tests where very high tones make the difference! 5th test was easy because value change made audible volume change, it just sounded louder, at least it seemed to be louder.
I'm usually the guy that can't hear any differences in tests like this, I'll usually pick the cheaper amp as the better sounding one, etc. I'm that guy. And even me - when I was rewiring my nephew's Gibson SG - the P.I.O. caps sounded much better than the ceramic drops - especially I reversed the polarity and that sounded even better.
Some suggestions for future testing. First, use a Gibson Les Paul, because there is no history of PRS guitars and 1950's Bumblebees. Use the 1950's vintage pickup/pot wiring diagram, because it uses a different scheme from modern wiring. Lastly, adjust the volume and tone pots for the best audio response from the guitar + bumblebee cap, and add this as another test. There is no reason to use settings which no one in his right mind would use.
In order for this to be a more rigorous experiment you need to use an entirely different way of inputting the signal. In this test you are missing the most important step which invalidates any conclusion that you may try to deduce. If you want to evaluate if some filter, which is what the tone cap is, influences the output of a signal in a discernible way, then the input signal must be identical. You should record one pass of playing whatever test material that you would like to use. Then use this recorded signal as input through the capacitor bank to the amp and the rest of your signal chain. Otherwise this test is actually at the mercy of your poking the guitar which has to be the most unrepeatable element in this experiment. I admire your efforts for taking the time and having the initiative to do this very interesting, but flawed, experiment. I am not arguing with the outcome since I have doubts whether anyone could detect the difference of the different capacitors, but this experiment is fatally flawed by not using an identical input.
I agree that inconsistencies in playing prevent absolute conclusions from being made in this test, but I do not feel this voids the intended point at all. Players who endorse an effect from dielectric differences with certainty universally base their judgement on comparisons with far fewer controls, often long time lapses to switch components, and repositioning of the instrument, hands, etc. This comparison is done on terms of the believers, only with much improved controls and time proximity. I considered using a looped signal, but felt it would be rejected by even more listeners as not being the real thing ("sure it doesn't come through in a simulation, but I can hear it when someone's really playing" kind of common attitude). Ultimately I felt using similar but improved conditions as proponents swear to be true, with the exception of being double blind, would be the most effective eye opener that all we believe we hear may not be entirely true. In addition, running a signal direct can be a challenge to do without corrupting the test in a way that could alter the outcome. Capacitors will have greatly different effects when placed against a buffered output than they will interacting with pickup coil. Put any active signal in line and you can dramatically alter the nature of the circuit. Exciter coils can be used to induce a signal in the pickup coil without any interference, but it is difficult to get any decent quality tone to judge by with this sort of setup.
By that reasoning, the type of cap won't make a difference anyway because no player ever plays the same part exactly the same way twice, no matter how hard they may try. If the difference is so slight that it is not evident in this test, you won't be able to tell the difference with real world playing.
I will be sending you some of our new homeopathic capacitors to test
The best upgrade anyone can make to their guitar is just to learn to play, no more no less.
I've been saying this all along, I generally advise my clients not to spend a lot of money on capacitors. The Russian military PIO caps look really great in a guitar and can be had for about $3.00 each.
You are right, in that the brain is a fascinating thing to study. The way it interprets everything our senses experience and the way memory shades or perceptions is fascinating to me. The science in all this stuff just doesn't lie - but unfortunately there will be those who won't believe it no matter how much proof you have. They will always come back with "But I know there's a difference because I can hear it", notwithstanding all of your explanations for why that is. I guess it's just scary for a musician or sound engineer to even consider the possibility that they can't trust their ears, when in fact it's their minds they can't trust - their ears work just fine.
Thank you for doing this. Like you, I have no horse in the race - only the desire to be as accurate and honest as I can be with my customers and friends. That's what makes this so important to me - not proving anything to anyone.
I don't have the time to read thru every comment, but I would like to address a phenomenon that I experienced with a ceramic capacitor that has led me to favor polypropylene caps in guitars. About 20 years ago, I was doing gear reviews for Guitar One magazine. I received a guitar for review that was clearly intended for high-gain metal players. IIRC, I plugged it into some distortion pedal - a ProCo Ratt? - and then to a Marshall JCM 800 combo, and cranked the volume. Battlefield conditions. The guitar had a faint howl to it, like a microphonic pickup. After poking around for a bit, I discovered that THE CERAMIC CAPACITOR WAS VIBRATING! The cap had a resonant frequency - more of a squeal, actually - that you wouldn't hear at normal volume levels, but became prominent under high-gain, high-volume conditions. When it was cranked like that, I could actually tap on the cap and get a ping-ping sound out of it. IIRC, I replaced the ceramic cap with a poly cap, and it was as quiet as could be. I have not had the inclination to repeat the test. It certainly could have been a rogue cap. But I would invite others to try it and see if they can reproduce the "microphonic cap" phenomenon, as this would be a serious factor in choosing caps for a guitar to be played in a high-gain, high-volume environment.
And that's why I buy 0.022 caps by the hundreds for less than the price of one overpriced "named" cap that is supposed to make your sound ( tone ) " so much better ".
Brilliant. Thank you for taking the time to do this test and share it with us!
Thanks for your efforts, it's always good to see people using SCIENCE in such applications! I saw the complete "Audio Myths Workshop" video years ago and highly recommend it.
ONE thing absolutely worth mentioning about ceramic capacitors (and I haven't seen your other videos except for the original comparison survey) is they are MICROPHONIC, and this is easily demonstrated. Turn your tone control all the way down and tap the ceramic tone cap with something hard, a pencil or screwdriver. You'll hear the tap come out of the amplifier! This does NOT happen with any other capacitor type, and I recommend ceramic caps NOT be used in any audio signal path because of this. Some may want to use "vintage" or "original" caps even if they're ceramics, and like you I can't fault them for that, but they should know that the cap may pick up mechanically transmitted sounds such as pickup switches being thrown. The pickups themselves can do this a little bit as well, but a ceramic tone cap with the tone control in the cut position will add to it.
Thank you A2, for creating and sharing this. I did correctly identify the control test #5's difference, so I feel good about that, but out of the first four tests, I was correct on one, which is exactly my statistical chances of guessing. It wasn't even the paperclip round that I was correct on. Think of the countless variables at play in how we perceive music, and think about all the variables where each of us is "certain we know the difference", but in the end what do we really know? I often think of Keith Richard's, "give me five minutes and I'll make 'em all sound the same". I don't know a person alive who can listen to a song, and then proceed to identify what the player used for stings, body wood, body shape, neck wood, fretboard wood, fret material, cable type, pedal(s), amp(s), capacitors in the guitar, capacitors in the amp, pickups, pickup settings, etc. I do know a lot of people who can hear a song and correctly identify the guitarist.
OK, Mr Collins…. Mr. David Collins…. I just want to say one thing here… one thing only…. THANK YOU!!!! Thank youuuuuuuuuuuu!!! This is such a fucking great survey/test!!!!!!!! I loved it from A to Z. I'm on a guitar project now, and was still wondering about those PIO caps…. I did use them on all my archtops because I noticed a better and more constant roll-off on the tone pot, but never because of tone enhancement (but maybe I was lying to myself…? lol…). But this type of test, like the one you did here, is a godsend! I sat down to eat my dinner after putting the baby to sleep, and I set my laptop in front of me and dialled on youtube. I typed "guitar capacitors" in the search box and I saw the link to your video and clicked. Sure enough, when you said "make sure you play this on good quality speakers or headphones…" I immediately paused you vid and ran to get my top quality studio headphones!!! (good thing I was eating a really good salmon salad with french shallots and aged balsamic vinegar, didn't care if it got cold!!!) anyway, I enjoyed it and learned from it. Thank's for the time and energy, it does make a huge difference… but the best thing is that I could hear your inner voice let go with this profound desire to tell all those schmucks with their fancy capacitors to just go and shuv it…. am I right!??? lol…. Cheers!
Excellent! Despite the difficulty of designing a reasonable blind test in this format, you did a fine job! I wish the human race would adopt this scientific approach to other decisions.
Thanks for doing this test and the other extremely informative videos. I've gained a wealth of information that will narrow the individual trial and error steps I have to take to find the personal tones I am looking for. Obviously this equates to $$ savings that can be applied in a better way than buying components for tests.
I love your videos!!
Very informative and credible.
I wish you were around before I wasted/spent money on upgrades that I did years ago.
I appreciate the detail of information you provide.
Thank you!
Thank you for clarifying this topic! I wasn't able to hear differencies, because sooo small that I tried to guess more or less... Zero hit rate... I could only distinguish the paperclip, because of slightly drop of heights- but if I had it in my guitar, I would be content with the sound
The problem I have with this is that 1, it's not just about the audio. The feel (how it affects picking attack /sustain
2 . I believe most people who make the argument that tone caps make a difference are referring to in amplifiers . As a amp builder there is a noticeable difference in feel and tone . In a guitar not so much bc it is in the beginning and is being affected through the tone caps (and a # of other things to factor ) in the amp . Try this test with same brand capacitors that make up the tones tonestack bandwidth of the amp. Then switch nothing else other then a different brand /type capacitors of the same vales and tell me what u think then
well done...you did the home work and it helps me on many levels,TOM
This was great !........too bad I missed it years ago!
What was the value of the Bumble Bee cap on test 3 ?
Tx
I thought I could hear a difference in tests 3 and 4 (and 5, of course) and I guess correctly for those two. But if you told me I was imagining the difference I probably wouldn't argue. There is certainly no obvious difference. My ears are pretty good, too. I have always been able to hear the difference between tube and modelling amps, for example. But after this I can't see a good tonal reason for buying more expensive caps. Thanks for doing the test!
I sell high performance audio for a living and have designed high end speakers for many years. I did get all of them right, running the signal through a very high performance system. However, i wouldn't walk across the room for the incredibly slight difference and frankly guessed at one. I really didn't expect to hear much in this application, band limited signal and the cap being a shunt to ground rather than a series component. Nicely done. Thanks for taking the time. I have bought an EICO capacitance selector that I wire into new guitars so that I can change capacitor values on the fly and determine what I prefer in a given setup.
Love these videos! Excellent job!
Coming from an electronic tech perspective, the major frequency response difference will primarily reside above audio frequencies. In the RF world there can be huge differences. Some materials become very leaky with frequency. Great test however.
I totally agree that different types of capacitors don't make any difference in guitar tone circuits, however I'm still unsure as to whether they make a difference in amplifiers. I have changed out capacitors in an amp before and noticed a huge difference in tone, which I believe was large enough to warrant it being an actual difference and not just me thinking there should be a difference. Also because I really didn't know what to expect and was on the fence when doing it. However I still am on the fence as it wasn't scientific due to me not measuring values before and after. It could have even been a bad cap. Who knows. Maybe one day I'll do proper testing.
This is great. I didn't put a tone control in my build because I thought if you left everything on 10 ( which I usually do) it would make no difference.
The difference is sooooooo minimal its almost like convincing yourself the crowd can hear the difference in a playing or recording situation.
Thanks for doing this, David. 👍
Late to the party but this was best, controlled, test Ive seen for this popular and frequently misguided topic. Really good. BTW Youre other videos are also well worth the entrance fee....
Thanks for taking the time to research, and make this video. I'm subbing, and look forward to future vids.
would love to hear you do a similar blind test on electric guitar tone wood as this is something I've seen mixed results with depending on who and how the tests were done.
So which one was the odd one out in Test 5?
Just to testify if I would have qualified. I was right in the first three tests and failed the 4th... so I would really like to know if that was just luck or if I was hearing the difference. Thanks for that great test by the way!
He will not tell you, because then it turns out that there are people who hear the difference.
As I too got 3 of 4 correct, in the end I'm still not convinced this was based on actual aural acuity or just chance. So it would be nice to know which was the .015 (odd one out) cap in Test 5. It would be nice if a simple link to a webpage could be included here to find out this info. And if he doesn't want to reveal the answer because he's still collecting survey data great, then how about an update video 6 years later. Otherwise, this simple piece of research has completed and a complete definition of ALL variables is in order, like with any piece of research.
@@MacBlackwell if you read coment just below he gaves the answer. i guessed it right when i did the test myself , quite noticeable change in tone on position B.
Tone is in the players hands not the caps
Hello, I watched all your videos about capacitors, and they are cool, thank you for that review, Iám a pedal effects manufacturer and I want to tell you that if you want to see the differences between capacitors materials, please try the different materials in a common crybaby or Vox wah wah pedal changing the material capacitors for the 2pcs. .22uF and 2pcs. .01uF they really makes the difference in different materials for the dielectric, try Polyestyrene, Metalyzed Polyester Film, Ceramic, Paper in Oil, Mylar, tantalumm, Silver Mica capacitors, Mica plate capacitors, paper capacitors, paper wax capacitors, etc..., there you are going to hear the increidible differences of tone in a wah wah pedal. Can you make that video?
Different kinds of capacitor have different tolerances. So they can have a different actual value. Some kinds are less susceptible to noise and change of value with age. These are things perhaps could have an effect. Glass capacitors are about the most expensive; be interesting to hear if they make a difference.
Well presented. Agreed that UA-cam compression shouldn't preclude results that are consistent with reality. The difference between .015µF and .022µF is fairly subtle; the fact that 70% of your viewers heard the difference via UA-cam pretty clearly rules out UA-cam compression as an invalidating factor in our opinion.
We've had this conversation with Suhr, Fralin, and Lollar, their conclusions mirror your own.
Very Interesting! Great Video, I sub'd! Can't wait to see the video of the "control box" you showed in this, i'm actually designing something similar to that myself! I got almost all of the answers wrong, and I have a good ear for tone/guitar sounds! i always thought there wasn't much difference in types of caps but rather the values. This proved that! Can't wait to see more!
are capacitors frequency dependent? do certain caps block lows and pass the higher frequencies, and visa versa? just wondering?
I know this is dated, but the information is great. Good to know that my hearing isn't completely poor as I was able to identify the two extreme cases, i.e. 5 and 2. Seems that would at least acknowledge the engineering application (aka sensitivity) of the capacitor in a tone circuit independent of the frequency spectrum analyses. In short, the magnitude of the difference in capacitance matters. But, it does not necessarily validate that quality, brand, or construction materials of the capacitors. Separately, the quality control of the manufactures could play into the preferences that users may experience. Inconsistent results of a specific capacitor brand or material could certainly impact the users' experiences if compared to the population of users 'opinions'.
thank you for that survey), very useful
I got em all! Haha very good to know that ceramics are good to go
I got the paper clip as the odd one out!
Thank you for your efforts.
I´m realy happy about this video, it means that much less people will be looking after the good PIO caps like Sprague and etc... Please believe to what the video says, please use those ceramic cheap crap caps its do not affect the tone in any way .
It's great to hear you find some advantage in the results. Not all players can be swayed by demonstrable facts and repeatable evidence. If educating the market on facts of how electronics truly work end up lessening demand for the perishable resource of vintage components, this could benefit those who subscribe to metaphysical faith-based tone. Glad I could be of help.
You sir, kick ass! Hopefully you can get around to doing some stainless vs nickle fret tests someday. Thanks again for the vid!
excellent work! thanks!!
Haha I got the first three no problem! I guess there is a difference. I was gonna do test 4 too but I saw the results before the test so it was spoiled.
Great job with the blind test and controls. Nice to see someone offering data instead of their own personal opinion. (((I could not hear a difference in the odd one out tests and I am an experienced player with a good ear))) - You will get people who have invested too much of their time and money in to propagating the myth to believe even the most clinical test, but I think the test is valid would yield the same results with a larger population sample.
I should cancel my order at Greg's Expensive Capacitors.
What about test #5?
DAVID COLLINS ROCKS!!!!
In my limited experience the ceramics in general seem to have a better/smoother range, and suit the "wah wah" effect better.
I missed something....so what position was the PIO cap in in test 5? (for us tone deaf people)
B?
Hey, that must have taken a lot of effort. Good work and thanks for sharing it. Umm, now that you're done, I'll gladly buy your bumble bees (if they have the extra solder hole) for the same price as any cheap ceramic of the same value. Let me relieve you of that burden, it's the least I could do :)
Let me tell you at the beginning that I'm not selling and not producing and not buying expensive capacitors. Unfortunately, the test was biased. It was the unspoken idea that there is no difference and there would be no difference. To prove this, it was only necessary to look for an audio chain whose own distortion is greater than the difference between capacitors. Strongly distorted and dynamically poor sound with a loudspeaker and a microphone chain instead of digitalization of the line-out. I doubt that any difference could be revealed with this setup because of the deliberate distortions. (distortion on guitar, loudspeaker, microphone). Why don't you test capacitors with high quality DAC and SACD recording? Many people believe this test has proved something. This test only proves that it is impossible to tell differences in this installation. I found that many AES member not really interested in the best quality sound. They interested in mass-production. So sound quality is often secondary. So if you want to prove something you will take (unconscious steps to prove that. You'll not tell the nonconscious steps because you don't think they are steps to proove your idea. That's the bias. The parts must be tested with clear sound.
Thanks for doing this. Very elaborate and cool.
By throwing out the "losers" on question 5, you qualified the remaining listeners. Therefore, you have shown that on the rest of the tests, the caps with the highest votes sounded the most different. The fact that your instruments can't measure why, doesn't change the fact they sound different, or the votes would be equally off. So different caps, sound different. But I knew that already.
And thank you for being honest at 10:01, which in and of itself disqualifies the test, as being produced by someone with an admitted bias. Hard to avoid one though.
Next up, every boutique guitar or guitart part vs cheap chinese mass production. Double blind. Turns out we don't "need" anything we buy! Oh, wait......
maybe drill a hole through a small cylinder of tonewood and glue a straightened paperclip tin the ends and then bammo, watched a really anal Throback pickup video, thinking that was about 60% wishfull thinking also
Every human being has its sensors tweaked in a different way. Even, that most of the people belongs to the Normal Bell, there are a few that are far away that bell.
This is common to any human ability, and some exceptions include paint colorists (that see color nuances that could never see), perfum designers (that smell nuances that you will never smell) and audio masters (that hear nuances you will never hear).
So, if just a 5% of the people hears the difference, means this that there is no difference, at all or that, just an small percentage of the population can hear differences?.
I did this blind test, in other great video series, because I KNEW I heard differences and, very specially between PIO caps / Orange Drops and Ceramic caps.
To me each cap has a fingerprint, even with the tone pot full open!.
I heard the video with quality mixing headphones and, took notes while the several caps where demoed (without telling you which cap was tested) and, I clearly identified PIO / orange drops and ceramics, putting all the rest in a bag.
I know I hear the fingerprint of those caps so, someone trying to say me that I cannot hear such a differences, sounds to me as stupid as someone else saying to a paints colorist that he/she cannot distinguish such a color nuances.
Said that, the REAL IMPACT in the tone is totally negligible and, any little nuance is lost in the mix, in real application.
So, IMHO, there is no discussion about if someone can or cannot hear the differences but, which weight they have in the overall tone and, if they worth the extra cash.
My position is very clear:
a) if you don't hear the difference, just get the cheapest cap in the world.
b) if you don't hear the difference but, you think that to have this or other cap makes your axe sexier, go ahead, it's your money and your personal satisfaction
c) if you hear the difference, balance the real enhancement in tone for the money. If you can go with cheaper Sprage Vitamin-Q or Mojotone Vitamin-T, why to spend big money with Russian Military NOS (that, maybe are dried) PIO caps?.
d) you hear the difference and want to buy expensive caps because it gives you some halo, then go ahead, hell. It's your axe and your money. Be happy.
yep, i feel stupid. Vitamin Q's for 10 bucks a pop ( i sorta knew there wasn't a difference, why i went ahead and got them anyways... gibson/epi fender/squire... you do too!)
just took test 3... i picked the BB as best sounding. it was slight, but the tone was a light clearer or crisper
10/10
outstanding. Thank you for saving me money
Slight compression? UA-cam adds slight compression? It's huge compression! Especially for such comparsion tests where very high tones make the difference! 5th test was easy because value change made audible volume change, it just sounded louder, at least it seemed to be louder.
I'm usually the guy that can't hear any differences in tests like this, I'll usually pick the cheaper amp as the better sounding one, etc. I'm that guy. And even me - when I was rewiring my nephew's Gibson SG - the P.I.O. caps sounded much better than the ceramic drops - especially I reversed the polarity and that sounded even better.
You just saved me about £20 :)
So what was the test 5 answer?
Position B
@@A2Guitars that got me worried
😊
Some suggestions for future testing. First, use a Gibson Les Paul, because there is no history of PRS guitars and 1950's Bumblebees. Use the 1950's vintage pickup/pot wiring diagram, because it uses a different scheme from modern wiring. Lastly, adjust the volume and tone pots for the best audio response from the guitar + bumblebee cap, and add this as another test. There is no reason to use settings which no one in his right mind would use.
An example of quality guitar distortion: ua-cam.com/video/fgltIA8ZpYY/v-deo.html
That was a colossal waste of time.
In order for this to be a more rigorous experiment you need to use an entirely different way of inputting the signal. In this test you are missing the most important step which invalidates any conclusion that you may try to deduce. If you want to evaluate if some filter, which is what the tone cap is, influences the output of a signal in a discernible way, then the input signal must be identical. You should record one pass of playing whatever test material that you would like to use. Then use this recorded signal as input through the capacitor bank to the amp and the rest of your signal chain. Otherwise this test is actually at the mercy of your poking the guitar which has to be the most unrepeatable element in this experiment. I admire your efforts for taking the time and having the initiative to do this very interesting, but flawed, experiment. I am not arguing with the outcome since I have doubts whether anyone could detect the difference of the different capacitors, but this experiment is fatally flawed by not using an identical input.
I agree that inconsistencies in playing prevent absolute conclusions from being made in this test, but I do not feel this voids the intended point at all. Players who endorse an effect from dielectric differences with certainty universally base their judgement on comparisons with far fewer controls, often long time lapses to switch components, and repositioning of the instrument, hands, etc. This comparison is done on terms of the believers, only with much improved controls and time proximity.
I considered using a looped signal, but felt it would be rejected by even more listeners as not being the real thing ("sure it doesn't come through in a simulation, but I can hear it when someone's really playing" kind of common attitude). Ultimately I felt using similar but improved conditions as proponents swear to be true, with the exception of being double blind, would be the most effective eye opener that all we believe we hear may not be entirely true.
In addition, running a signal direct can be a challenge to do without corrupting the test in a way that could alter the outcome. Capacitors will have greatly different effects when placed against a buffered output than they will interacting with pickup coil. Put any active signal in line and you can dramatically alter the nature of the circuit. Exciter coils can be used to induce a signal in the pickup coil without any interference, but it is difficult to get any decent quality tone to judge by with this sort of setup.
A2Guitars thank you or performing this test and sharing the methodology and results!
By that reasoning, the type of cap won't make a difference anyway because no player ever plays the same part exactly the same way twice, no matter how hard they may try. If the difference is so slight that it is not evident in this test, you won't be able to tell the difference with real world playing.