Hi all, Media outlets are now confirming this is the final Microcode release for this issue by Intel. Reports are mixed from a performance side, some are seeing 1-10% impact, others are not. Its dependant on your motherboard model and manufacture as some options are getting patched out. Which would confirm that its not the microcode and rather the manufacture is changing emoving options for those models of motherboards. (although still in response to Intel) If there are anymore concrete updates around this topic i will update this comment, otherwise consider it fixed. Thank you for the discussions below, interesting how split the community has been for this one.
I simply upgraded from my 14900K & Z690 Aorus Master to the 9950x & Asus Rog Crosshair x670e Hero. No problems ever since. INTEL you had your chance, and you BLEW IT.
I am looking very fondly on 12900ks cpu alone since its sells for about 360 dollars here in denmark!but the psu have to be upgraded too since I use 750w!its for a build for a friend of mine!for about 90 dollars less, I could build him a 5900x with the 850w psu easily!
I took my 13700K PC out of service when all this started, though I have had no stability issues. I'm waiting for these "updates" to settle out before doing a BIOS update and bringing the machine back on line. It has an ASRock Z690 Taichi motherboard, and it took forever for them to release the 0X129 BIOS, so I presume I'll be waiting a while longer for the X12B version. Meantime, I'm using a 5700X machine. This sort of thing can always happen, and that's why keeping a backup PC that's fully built and ready to step in is always prudent.
Good idea, I had a mate with a 13th gen laptop chip and he did the same thing (before they confirmed mobile chips wernt impacted) just stopped using the laptop for a few weeks and only used his desktop (10th gen).
It is clear motherboard manufacturers to blame for instability and high power consumption of 13th and 14th gen. Let me share my personal experience. When I early purchased my i7 1400K (long before all the media fuss) I knew from its technical specifications that it has base power 125W and max turbo power 253W. Also, turbo boost 5.6GHz, boost 5.5GHz and base 3.4GHz. Installing it in my brand new MSI Z790 board which at the time was defaulting to performance base settings, it was setting my CPU to unlimited power (4000+ Watts) unlimited current (500+ Amps), CEP disabled and strange under-volt oriented AC/DC lite load values (400/1100 mOhms). All of those settings resulted my CPU being thermal throttling even under my 360 AIO and running slower than the rated clocks due to this fact. At the time, BIOS version dated to March 2023 with whatever microcode (I can not recall now) and the option to choose from different microcodes! It took me an hour of tweaking to get my 14700K to run consistently at turbo clocks, consuming only 230W (70W less than the stock settings) and my AIO was now able to handle the heat. I didn't even bother to limit power settings because they were so far away from being hit. Similarly, I had to deal with strange default settings in my 13600K but I also fixed it with a few simple tweaks. Nothing is wrong with my computers for many months now and I am impressed of how fast they are for the price they cost at the time of purchase. Thank you for sharing you thoughts and your honest opinion.
Thats insane, and you are not the alone here, others have said a similar stories. I guess buying a 'K' series, motherboard manufactures are assuming you know how to tweak all your power settings and they will just give you everything unlocked so your CPU can just go crazy.
@@John_Morrish I agree about the K series being enthusiast CPUs but this is more common knowledge than official statement by intel. In my opinion (and I think it makes sense) anyone that is building his own PC has to have some basic tweak skills because tweaking is part of the build. If NOT, than he's better off search for a system builder that he knows what he's actually doing which unfortunately is not always the case.
@@eevd350z Hi mate, Depending on your situation, Intels new Arrow Lake drops next month, if you can wait a bit longer and get that it should be better in terms of Power usage and performance. If you need a new computer sooner rather than later or money is a factor, consider getting a non K series 13\14th gen, they are not impacted by this issue. If you find a good deal on a K series 13\14th gen chip and are happy to get that, then make sure you update your BIOS once its built!
@@eevd350z if your purpose is purely gaming go for 7800X3d but if it includes professional workload too - i would suggest wait a while - intel is probably about to release their next gen CPUs in late October!
there is a performance impact with the new bios though, 10-15% loss, even more on single core operations, this has been demonstrated many times, and Intel's link to "help" people determine Intel default BIOS setting require you to read a 200 page technical manual (with no guidance) for 3 of the settings.
Thanks mate, you are right, seems there are reports coming out post my uploading this video of a performance impact which is counter to what Intel have claimed. I will keep an eye on it, the post i have seen is reporting from ASUS motherboards, once i get confirmation other manufactures have done the same i will pin a comment on this video.
I just think it’s staggering that you buy a motherboard and the out of the box settings do not match the recommended intel settings published on their website. I believe intel was aware of this and looked the other way because it would boost performance which is what everyone wanted. But once the cpus started frying everyone is passing the buck. That is why I believe there is joint culpability between intel and mobo manufacturers
Yeah its been like that for many many generations, and i agree it is odd, but it is only the K series that do this, non 'K' models will use intels standard power recomendations. Willing to bet its because Intel refreshed the same generation again and again and again and etc..and kept pumping more power into a tired design, it was already so close to the edge that MB manufactures tried the same and its hit that tipping point finally..
Unless you needed the threads there should be no need to buy a 13th/14th gen i9. Honestly for this socket the best options for Intel have been cheap i3 and i5’s like the 12400, or at max a XX600K. Hopefully Arrow lake is stable as we need more competition.
I'm being forced to upgrade from my laptop with an i7 10th gen to a desktop, but there's all these issues with the new Intel chips. I'm considering going AMD but Intel is supposed to be better for the data processing I'd be using my computer for. Thoughts?
Hi Mate, Do you know what model of Intel CPU you will be getting with the Desktop? -If its brand new, update your BIOS and dont worry about it, enjoy your new computer. -If its a non K model, still update your BIOS, but they 'should'nt' be affected by this issue. Go with the brand thats best for your needs, if that is Intel then be aware of this issue but it shouldnt stop you from enjoying it. Its also worth mentioning that in about 2 weeks time Intel will have launched its new 'Arrow Lake' CPU's, if you can wait till then and go with that, Intel have stated it wont be impacted by this issue.
Sigh. This revision for a revision of a revision to stop the consequences is ridiculous. I wish they would just stop, and admit CPUs are fd But imagine that cost of a fiasco
Yeah this will be the 3rd Microcode update. Intel really should have released a statement asking for time to investigate the problem, Then release 1 microcode update with these 3 fixes now they are saying they have found the root cause. But i guess from the media pressure at the time they were just need 'an update' out asap to take the pressure off..
i my opinion and my experience it was not the processors themselves, it was the way the motherboard settings communicated with the chips, i could have put any 14th gen or 13th gen on my board that was not a core chip and got the same bsod, crashing and freezes. for me it was an easy fix just limiting my performance for a bit. yes i recommend 14th gen to people no doubt i love my 14500 great cpu.
Yep, seems we are talking about an issue that affects such a small user base. there a so many out there with no issues (myself included 13th gen i5 13600K) I did add a link below the video to it, but Intel have confirmed its only K series chips impacted. So you should be in the clear with your CPU :)
The point is, its not what I bought. They should deliver me a flawless processor, and that is not the case. And you think that all manufacturers made the same mistake, Intel promised too much and did not deliver what we expected from Intel.
Yep, you are right, it should be perfect, billion dollar company, their internal processes for catching issues like this needs to be looked at. Flipping it the other way, Intel have announced 2 year extnsion to the warrenty on these chips, and people (even in these comments) are confirming their 13th gen chip is getting repleaced with a 14th gen, assuming you do Microcode updates it should mitigate the problem. But that doesnt account for loss of time\work from your CPU having issues. The big question is, If the media didnt blow this up a few months back, would Intel have done the same thing? I rcon they would have been aware, and some person sitting in finacnce would have flagged why are we getting X amount more 13\14th gen chips returned than previous gens?
@@John_Morrish Well that's an easy answer. Before the media fuss there were no extensive amount of returns. Seems to me that many users start returning perfectly good CPUs out of fear.
Since from the first days of introducing i9 13900k all channels said that this CPU is using much energy and is problematic to cool. I therefor disabled hyper threading and adjusted watts via bios according to intel specs . No problems until today. Never used microcode upgrades. But if someone asks I recommend 12th gen until intel has solved her problems.
I guess I won't update the new bios, my 13900k and 14900k always stable using 1202 bios from asus, and I never experience any issue about stability or whatsoever. Once I update to 1503 bios, both pc crash 5 times in an hour. Rollback the bios to 1202, and both are fine again. 😂
i have a 12700K so no issues. My GF has 13600K wich i build her no issues since JAN 2024. It was undervolted and locked the cores since day one. But tell you what. Now all bash Intel, they did not good but it can happen to AMD and Nvidia too. We have 3 developers its not plenty, if we trust nobody or forgive we simply stop playing games
Question is how long does affected CPUs work? Do they keep going as long as previous generations? Do they last after RMA period? Intel is dragging the issue out as long as they can release next great product. Then you run to buy that and previous issues fade into the history.
Yeah, it could be a week, month, year, years. whilst it would be good for some form of confirmation. Due to the nature of degredation and differences CPU to CPU it would be impossible to determine exactly how long they will last, plus different Motherboards are apparently a factor. At this stage assume "every K series 13\14th gen are impacted". And it could break at a moments notice. Intel have extended the warrenty by 2 years for impacted models, and those in this thread are saying they have had their 13th replaced with a 14th gen, hopefully getting that and updating the BIOS mitigates the issue..
@@John_Morrish Sadly they have damaged the second hand market and need to be punished for that by not offering them money for next CPUs just like that. As the USoA is litigation happy then we will likely see some court action around it as well. Maybe get some money back offer to domestic customers, but internationally we will get a middle finger or two.
you technically don't need the latest microcode. Just simply adjust the settings manually yourself. I'm not sure why people buy Z boards and K chips and not go in their bios and tune their system. If you don't plan on going in your bios then go buy AMD or if you must go Intel then get a Non K CPU.
HI Mate, Copying it from a below comment: "In general, i agree with what you are saying, they pull too much power, and running lower power can extend the life and slow degradation. But regarding Vmin instability, limiting the voltage via BIOS does not appear to get around this. its why these are being patched via microcode tweak by intel and not by MB manufactures. If you run a 13\14th gen K series, your chip can request too much power, its not a setting in the BIOS thats doing this but the CPU itself."
Intel is just trying to avoid responsibility at this point. I don't expect those changes to fix anything because it's hardware issue but Intel not going to refund all 13th/14th buyers. So they come up with fixes doing almost nothing before next architecture gets traction.
Yeahh, its a tricky one. You might have already had the issue leading to degradation, updated your BIOS but by then it was too late. Fingers crossed that if you do the updates asap with your new model CPU, you are without issues moving forward.
What I do not understand is why the MB companies, despite knowing their power settings, can fry a CPU and still go ahead and do that. More so if it's a well-known fact. People will not buy Intel CPUs and harm the sales of those MB's.
Good point, I am sure the MB manufactures must know the % it impacts, and if it is impacted they might turn around and say, no its Intels CPU that is the problem. Seems a grey area and customers would just say eh, RMA it and get a new one. Could also be Intel in the background saying they are fine to be set at whatever settings. If it hits a thermal limit then "customers fault for not providing enough cooling" regardless its become more transparent with Intels last couple generations due to them being so power hungry, Arrow lake is hopefully a step down in terms of power requirements, or at least, the architurcure is designed with such high power in mind.
Agreed, depending on the situation. If there was a good deal on existing 13\14th gen, i dont think this instability issue is enough to rule out purchasing one, as long as you know to update your BIOS.
The answer is a full no because the two generations of CPUs are known to have serious issues, and 15th gen is just next quarter. If anything urgent happens and people have to buy before the next one comes out, a 12th gen is a much better choice than the latest two. It supports the latest DDR and PCI-E iterations, and it has plenty of cores for most use cases. My i7-12700 CPU has 12 cores and 20 threads - a lot of processing power while not even being the fastest. It also draws much less power to do its job, compared to newer CPUs. I'm glad I chose 12th gen when only this and 13th were available. 6th and 7th gen _(I owned both)_ also had weird stability issues, but those were different and Intel only admitted it 2-3 years later, and have since removed that paper from their website, on what the problem was. I lost trust in Intel so badly that I waited for 6 more generations to come to market until I considered buying anything else from them. And now with the current fiasco of two other borked generations, as well as incredibly poor communication, I'm happy I don't have to care about their CPUs for a few more years.
@@kneekoo I understand the trust point, I own a 13th gen desktop CPU after all. (Fortunatly havnt had any issues to date, prior to this i was on 9th gen which didnt have issues.) The topic is, if given the chance to purchase a Raptor Lake CPU, knowing they had this Vmin Instability issue. should you? With Arrow Lake coming soon, there will be deals and discounts on 13\14th gen, so people will buy them, doubly so when they are bundled with a Motherboard and RAM. 12th gen isnt readily available anymore, and whilst i agree with all your 12th gen points, (its basicly lower power 13th gen) It is off topic when looking at "Is 13\14th gen still a viable option for those looking to puchase them post this known Vmin instability issue." If 13\14th are on sale for a good deal, and you dont have the funds or dont want to wait for Arrow Lake. Then make sure you update you BIOS is the underlying take away, outside of that its not worth worrying about. (Saying all of that, i still would like more clarity around that 1st seneraio Intel mentioned 🙄)
Two CPU generations plagued by serious issues cannot be considered viable options, unless people don't care about their mental sanity, productivity, and/or have money to waste. I'm an IT professional and if I had to get new PCs right now, I would choose 12th gen in a heart beat. There's still enough stock around if you don't need hundreds or thousands of them at once. I would happily deal with the added annoyance of buying from multiple suppliers if that's how I get enough CPUs. I wouldn't spend the company's money on stuff that has a great potential of blowing up in my face with replacements, that requires extra support for my colleagues, and causes a decrease in everyone's productivity. It's not worth it. And if I could postpone the acquisition for 3 more months, I'd simply compare 12th gen against 15th gen. With the 6th and 7th gens I had random freezes, sometimes even 4-5 times a day, and they were so bad that not even the reset button on the case would work. I had to keep the button pressed for over 5 seconds to cycle the power on the PC. But at least that piece of crap CPU had no risk of physical degradation like 13th and 14th gens can have. And I would not have to deal with weird motherboards that (according to Intel) would apply extra voltage on an already bad-by-design CPU. I get that you'd rather assume you'll never have problems with your CPU. And after my suffering with 6th gen, I really hope that you'll never have to deal with issues with this generation. It quickly becomes a pain, and I can't wish that to anyone. So good luck!
If you are looking at it from a company perspective, want to by in bulk and it has to be a desktop, get a 13\14th gen non K series chip. They are not impacted by instability (only the K series is) Intel: community.intel.com/t5/Processors/Intel-Core-13-14th-Gen-Instability-Update-Future-Products/m-p/1627440/highlight/true#M77071 Dont delay aqusitions or recommend years old hardware that will hit EOL faster.
First of all, don't buy Intel 13th and 14th generation. If you already have it, limit the voltage to MAX 1.35V. Since the current voltages are too high, about 1.45 - 1.5. If you limit the voltage to 1.35V, you will save your CPU, if it is not degraded jet. This will reduce performance, but save the CPU. If you're buying a new computer, AMD is the obvious choice. There is no need to even discuss it at this point.
Hi Mate, In general, i agree with what you are saying, they pull too much power, and running lower power can extend the life and slow degradation. But regarding Vmin instability, limiting the voltage via BIOS does not appear to get around this. its why these are being patched via microcode tweak by intel and not by MB manufactures. If you run a 13\14th gen K series, your chip can request too much power, its not a setting in the BIOS thats doing this but the CPU itself.
It's not the motherboard manufacturer's fault. It's Intel's fault for not setting safe required specs for the motherboard manufacturers to adhere to. Please don't spread false information. There are many channels with people with far better expertise on this topic reporting on this topic.
No, I still remember the day I boot up my brand new 13700K system and ran a Cinebench R23, it drew 300W of power immediately resulting in an instant jump to 100C temp. After a few seconds it throttled down to 250ish watt, and my motherboard wasn't even for overclocking, it's just a standard B660 from MSI. I immediately checked the BIOS and played around with the voltage settings to undervolt it, and after spending some time I was able to undervolt it without losing Cinebench score, which was around 30k. What I did just disable the UVP and change the CPU Lite Load to Mode 8 (mode 7 and below reduced my Cinebench score), and offset it with -140mv. After applying those changes, it no longer drew more than 220 Watts when running Cinebench and temps drastically reduced, and voltage was also maxed out at 1.2ish volt at idle, 1.1ish volt at full load. Stable 24/7 running since June 2023 without any sign of degradation, and I haven't applied any microcode patches yet. You see, if I were a noob and didn't know anything about BIOS and undervolting, my CPU would've already been fried and degraded because of the sh ty default BIOS settings. It's definitely the motherboard manufacturer's fault for giving the CPU too much power.
Hi mate, what you are claiming is right for non K model chips, they will run against Intels specs out of box for the most part. However, for K series, no. MB manufactures can (not always) will apply their own power and load line specs against the CPU's, and do have a large degree of control over what settings we see when we socket one. That is what Intel are refering to in their article.
Intel set some guidance yet the MB makers did not adhere it strictly - thinking they can get away with it since there had never been a problem before. The goal is of course to even the field with AMD CPUs. So both are guilty.
@@chiyolate Damn. Its good you were able to catch and reign it in. Undervolting is the way to go almost always, doubly so in todays market where most devices are pumping extra power for the extra 2% gain.
Well, you don't need to be an "expert" to run a few benchmarks and monitor performance and tweak your CPU/MB to behave according to your build and expectations. All the software you need is free and all the knowledge is widely spread on the internet. "Experts" that do not know that or pretend to now know can't be trusted. You should consider filtering your sources carefully before spread accusations to others.
Should I buy Intel i9 13th a 14th gen CPU’s? Absofriggin’lutely not. A flawed architecture. I said this 2 years ago on my channel. Intel was going to have problems with their overpowered CPU’s.
With Arrow lake coming, we will see deals on 13\14th gen chips, For any non K model, they are not impacted and still a working porduct. (them being overpowered is a whole other topic though.) Knowing the K models had this instability, which we now have a RCA from Intel for, it becomes a PSA to update your BIOS's if you or someone you know is planning to grab one of these deals. It is interesting seeing the division on this topic though, wether or not people would buy one of these affected chips, or Intel in general.
@@John_Morrish Sure, but the problem with Intel’s fix is I now am getting less than what I paid for and that’s blatant “false advertising” on Intels part. I hope a class action lawsuit is brought against Intel for the “false advertising”. Anyone in the know was fully aware that Intel ran ridiculous amounts of power through their chips in order to keep up with Ryzen. Intel CPU’s were destined to fail……..and they did. I’m sure there were engineers within Intel who warned brass of the impending doom, but they were not listening. Although I still satisfy the market by building Intel gaming rigs, I won’t touch the i9 CPU’s. I really don’t trust Intel anymore. In my humble opinion, their present architecture is dead in the socket.
Only overpowering was from motherboards. Asus mainly as it came 100A's over from the box. You needed to set INTEL settings yourself. AMD was having the same trouble not so long ago with Asus burning to crisp in the socket. This because Asus if on recommended settings looses to other manufacturers and to compete they need to go over the safe limits. This goes on all of the Chinese boards. MSI I think is made in Taiwan and safe choice.
@@paulboyce8537 No……sorry…….you are incorrect. The CPU is requesting the voltage……..the motherboard supplies what is requested. Intel’s power draw is ridiculous on its 12th, 13th, and 14th gen CPU’s. Don’t blame it on Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, AsRock, or any other board manufacturer. The problem lies squarely with Intel’s architecture. AMD CPU’s draw half the power of Intel CPU’s. Something ain’t right there 🤔.
@@techluvin7691 Board sets the limit. Board feeds the CPU. If the CPU is fed 100A over it limit it will fry. Maybe check the BIOS options on your motherboard.
Hi sir, I recently received a replacement 14th generation Intel processor unit as a replacement for my previous 13th generation unit due to overheating issues. While using the 13th generation processor, I experienced overheating problems but never encountered black or blue screens. Since the replacement, I have not experienced any issues with the 14th generation processor. Given these circumstances, I would like to know if it is advisable to update the BIOS to the latest version, or if it is unnecessary since I am not currently facing any problems. Your expert opinion on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Hi mate, Yes, Update your BIOS. Its great you dont have issues currently, the microcode updates are to prevent degredation leading to instability from occuring overtime.
@@TixTakChannel This is apparently becoming common as Intel warehouses run out of 13th and have no choice but to replace a failed 13 with an equivalent 14.
Hi all, Media outlets are now confirming this is the final Microcode release for this issue by Intel.
Reports are mixed from a performance side, some are seeing 1-10% impact, others are not. Its dependant on your motherboard model and manufacture as some options are getting patched out.
Which would confirm that its not the microcode and rather the manufacture is changing
emoving options for those models of motherboards. (although still in response to Intel)
If there are anymore concrete updates around this topic i will update this comment, otherwise consider it fixed.
Thank you for the discussions below, interesting how split the community has been for this one.
I simply upgraded from my 14900K & Z690 Aorus Master to the 9950x & Asus Rog Crosshair x670e Hero. No problems ever since. INTEL you had your chance, and you BLEW IT.
I am looking very fondly on 12900ks cpu alone since its sells for about 360 dollars here in denmark!but the psu have to be upgraded too since I use 750w!its for a build for a friend of mine!for about 90 dollars less, I could build him a 5900x with the 850w psu easily!
Yep, also a good option.
I stopped buying Intel CPUs after Zen came out. Ha!!🤠
I just upgraded to a 12th gen CPU on Friday from MSY for $179. Good thing I did not go with 13th or 14th gen.
You still gave your money to a shite company.
I took my 13700K PC out of service when all this started, though I have had no stability issues. I'm waiting for these "updates" to settle out before doing a BIOS update and bringing the machine back on line. It has an ASRock Z690 Taichi motherboard, and it took forever for them to release the 0X129 BIOS, so I presume I'll be waiting a while longer for the X12B version. Meantime, I'm using a 5700X machine. This sort of thing can always happen, and that's why keeping a backup PC that's fully built and ready to step in is always prudent.
Good idea, I had a mate with a 13th gen laptop chip and he did the same thing (before they confirmed mobile chips wernt impacted) just stopped using the laptop for a few weeks and only used his desktop (10th gen).
It is clear motherboard manufacturers to blame for instability and high power consumption of 13th and 14th gen. Let me share my personal experience. When I early purchased my i7 1400K (long before all the media fuss) I knew from its technical specifications that it has base power 125W and max turbo power 253W. Also, turbo boost 5.6GHz, boost 5.5GHz and base 3.4GHz. Installing it in my brand new MSI Z790 board which at the time was defaulting to performance base settings, it was setting my CPU to unlimited power (4000+ Watts) unlimited current (500+ Amps), CEP disabled and strange under-volt oriented AC/DC lite load values (400/1100 mOhms). All of those settings resulted my CPU being thermal throttling even under my 360 AIO and running slower than the rated clocks due to this fact. At the time, BIOS version dated to March 2023 with whatever microcode (I can not recall now) and the option to choose from different microcodes! It took me an hour of tweaking to get my 14700K to run consistently at turbo clocks, consuming only 230W (70W less than the stock settings) and my AIO was now able to handle the heat. I didn't even bother to limit power settings because they were so far away from being hit. Similarly, I had to deal with strange default settings in my 13600K but I also fixed it with a few simple tweaks. Nothing is wrong with my computers for many months now and I am impressed of how fast they are for the price they cost at the time of purchase. Thank you for sharing you thoughts and your honest opinion.
Thats insane, and you are not the alone here, others have said a similar stories.
I guess buying a 'K' series, motherboard manufactures are assuming you know how to tweak all your power settings and they will just give you everything unlocked so your CPU can just go crazy.
@@John_Morrish I agree about the K series being enthusiast CPUs but this is more common knowledge than official statement by intel. In my opinion (and I think it makes sense) anyone that is building his own PC has to have some basic tweak skills because tweaking is part of the build. If NOT, than he's better off search for a system builder that he knows what he's actually doing which unfortunately is not always the case.
@@valentinosgsxrso you're telling me it can be fixed im planning to buy this processor but holding due to this
@@705ephrimholyson8 Can be fixed what? I haven't regret building on my 14700K but then I didn't go for the absolute cheapest motherboard I could find.
just updated my ASUS Z 790 E Wifi Bios yesterday with the 0x12B update - a sigh of relief for my 13900K!
Me2 I have the same board
Should I bite the bullet and upgrade to 13/14th gen then? I'm so close. Just been waiting for so long with reading these issues.
Yeah hopefully you are in the clear moving forward!
@@eevd350z Hi mate, Depending on your situation, Intels new Arrow Lake drops next month, if you can wait a bit longer and get that it should be better in terms of Power usage and performance.
If you need a new computer sooner rather than later or money is a factor, consider getting a non K series 13\14th gen, they are not impacted by this issue.
If you find a good deal on a K series 13\14th gen chip and are happy to get that, then make sure you update your BIOS once its built!
@@eevd350z if your purpose is purely gaming go for 7800X3d but if it includes professional workload too - i would suggest wait a while - intel is probably about to release their next gen CPUs in late October!
there is a performance impact with the new bios though, 10-15% loss, even more on single core operations, this has been demonstrated many times, and Intel's link to "help" people determine Intel default BIOS setting require you to read a 200 page technical manual (with no guidance) for 3 of the settings.
Thanks mate, you are right, seems there are reports coming out post my uploading this video of a performance impact which is counter to what Intel have claimed.
I will keep an eye on it, the post i have seen is reporting from ASUS motherboards, once i get confirmation other manufactures have done the same i will pin a comment on this video.
I just think it’s staggering that you buy a motherboard and the out of the box settings do not match the recommended intel settings published on their website. I believe intel was aware of this and looked the other way because it would boost performance which is what everyone wanted. But once the cpus started frying everyone is passing the buck. That is why I believe there is joint culpability between intel and mobo manufacturers
Yeah its been like that for many many generations, and i agree it is odd, but it is only the K series that do this, non 'K' models will use intels standard power recomendations.
Willing to bet its because Intel refreshed the same generation again and again and again and etc..and kept pumping more power into a tired design, it was already so close to the edge that MB manufactures tried the same and its hit that tipping point finally..
Unless you needed the threads there should be no need to buy a 13th/14th gen i9. Honestly for this socket the best options for Intel have been cheap i3 and i5’s like the 12400, or at max a XX600K. Hopefully Arrow lake is stable as we need more competition.
I'm being forced to upgrade from my laptop with an i7 10th gen to a desktop, but there's all these issues with the new Intel chips.
I'm considering going AMD but Intel is supposed to be better for the data processing I'd be using my computer for.
Thoughts?
Hi Mate, Do you know what model of Intel CPU you will be getting with the Desktop?
-If its brand new, update your BIOS and dont worry about it, enjoy your new computer.
-If its a non K model, still update your BIOS, but they 'should'nt' be affected by this issue.
Go with the brand thats best for your needs, if that is Intel then be aware of this issue but it shouldnt stop you from enjoying it.
Its also worth mentioning that in about 2 weeks time Intel will have launched its new 'Arrow Lake' CPU's, if you can wait till then and go with that, Intel have stated it wont be impacted by this issue.
Sigh.
This revision for a revision of a revision to stop the consequences is ridiculous.
I wish they would just stop, and admit CPUs are fd
But imagine that cost of a fiasco
Yeah this will be the 3rd Microcode update. Intel really should have released a statement asking for time to investigate the problem,
Then release 1 microcode update with these 3 fixes now they are saying they have found the root cause. But i guess from the media pressure at the time they were just need 'an update' out asap to take the pressure off..
This may not be the last microcode update. Like the Whack a Mole game, they hit one on the head, another one emerges somewhere else.
You might be right.
This is the first time Intel have called it a Root Cause Analysis, i would hope this is the last one.
i my opinion and my experience it was not the processors themselves, it was the way the motherboard settings communicated with the chips, i could have put any 14th gen or 13th gen on my board that was not a core chip and got the same bsod, crashing and freezes. for me it was an easy fix just limiting my performance for a bit. yes i recommend 14th gen to people no doubt i love my 14500 great cpu.
Yep, seems we are talking about an issue that affects such a small user base. there a so many out there with no issues (myself included 13th gen i5 13600K)
I did add a link below the video to it, but Intel have confirmed its only K series chips impacted. So you should be in the clear with your CPU :)
Hi bro, nice content! How about the i5 13600k? Is this i5 safe? Thank you!
Hi Mate,
Yes that is a K series, so is affected by this.
Check your manufactures website for your motherboard and update your BIOS.
@@John_Morrish thank you so much bro!! ❤️
The point is, its not what I bought. They should deliver me a flawless processor, and that is not the case.
And you think that all manufacturers made the same mistake, Intel promised too much and did not deliver what we expected from Intel.
Yep, you are right, it should be perfect, billion dollar company, their internal processes for catching issues like this needs to be looked at.
Flipping it the other way, Intel have announced 2 year extnsion to the warrenty on these chips, and people (even in these comments) are confirming their 13th gen chip is getting repleaced with a 14th gen, assuming you do Microcode updates it should mitigate the problem. But that doesnt account for loss of time\work from your CPU having issues.
The big question is, If the media didnt blow this up a few months back, would Intel have done the same thing?
I rcon they would have been aware, and some person sitting in finacnce would have flagged why are we getting X amount more 13\14th gen chips returned than previous gens?
@@John_Morrish Well that's an easy answer. Before the media fuss there were no extensive amount of returns. Seems to me that many users start returning perfectly good CPUs out of fear.
Since from the first days of introducing i9 13900k all channels said that this CPU is using much energy and is problematic to cool. I therefor disabled hyper threading and adjusted watts via bios according to intel specs . No problems until today. Never used microcode upgrades. But if someone asks I recommend 12th gen until intel has solved her problems.
I guess I won't update the new bios, my 13900k and 14900k always stable using 1202 bios from asus, and I never experience any issue about stability or whatsoever. Once I update to 1503 bios, both pc crash 5 times in an hour. Rollback the bios to 1202, and both are fine again. 😂
i have a 12700K so no issues. My GF has 13600K wich i build her no issues since JAN 2024. It was undervolted and locked the cores since day one.
But tell you what. Now all bash Intel, they did not good but it can happen to AMD and Nvidia too. We have 3 developers its not plenty, if we trust nobody or forgive we simply stop playing games
Question is how long does affected CPUs work? Do they keep going as long as previous generations? Do they last after RMA period? Intel is dragging the issue out as long as they can release next great product. Then you run to buy that and previous issues fade into the history.
Yeah, it could be a week, month, year, years. whilst it would be good for some form of confirmation. Due to the nature of degredation and differences CPU to CPU it would be impossible to determine exactly how long they will last, plus different Motherboards are apparently a factor.
At this stage assume "every K series 13\14th gen are impacted".
And it could break at a moments notice. Intel have extended the warrenty by 2 years for impacted models, and those in this thread are saying they have had their 13th replaced with a 14th gen, hopefully getting that and updating the BIOS mitigates the issue..
@@John_Morrish Sadly they have damaged the second hand market and need to be punished for that by not offering them money for next CPUs just like that.
As the USoA is litigation happy then we will likely see some court action around it as well. Maybe get some money back offer to domestic customers, but internationally we will get a middle finger or two.
you technically don't need the latest microcode. Just simply adjust the settings manually yourself. I'm not sure why people buy Z boards and K chips and not go in their bios and tune their system. If you don't plan on going in your bios then go buy AMD or if you must go Intel then get a Non K CPU.
HI Mate,
Copying it from a below comment:
"In general, i agree with what you are saying, they pull too much power, and running lower power can extend the life and slow degradation.
But regarding Vmin instability, limiting the voltage via BIOS does not appear to get around this.
its why these are being patched via microcode tweak by intel and not by MB manufactures.
If you run a 13\14th gen K series, your chip can request too much power, its not a setting in the BIOS thats doing this but the CPU itself."
Intel is just trying to avoid responsibility at this point. I don't expect those changes to fix anything because it's hardware issue but Intel not going to refund all 13th/14th buyers. So they come up with fixes doing almost nothing before next architecture gets traction.
I RMA my 13900K,all BIOS updates done,get 14900K in return,now do update again.What else is new :)
Oof
Yeahh, its a tricky one.
You might have already had the issue leading to degradation, updated your BIOS but by then it was too late.
Fingers crossed that if you do the updates asap with your new model CPU, you are without issues moving forward.
What I do not understand is why the MB companies, despite knowing their power settings, can fry a CPU and still go ahead and do that. More so if it's a well-known fact. People will not buy Intel CPUs and harm the sales of those MB's.
Good point, I am sure the MB manufactures must know the % it impacts, and if it is impacted they might turn around and say, no its Intels CPU that is the problem.
Seems a grey area and customers would just say eh, RMA it and get a new one.
Could also be Intel in the background saying they are fine to be set at whatever settings. If it hits a thermal limit then "customers fault for not providing enough cooling"
regardless its become more transparent with Intels last couple generations due to them being so power hungry,
Arrow lake is hopefully a step down in terms of power requirements, or at least, the architurcure is designed with such high power in mind.
Q: Should you buy?
A: No, duh!
Agreed, depending on the situation.
If there was a good deal on existing 13\14th gen, i dont think this instability issue is enough to rule out purchasing one, as long as you know to update your BIOS.
The answer is a full no because the two generations of CPUs are known to have serious issues, and 15th gen is just next quarter. If anything urgent happens and people have to buy before the next one comes out, a 12th gen is a much better choice than the latest two. It supports the latest DDR and PCI-E iterations, and it has plenty of cores for most use cases. My i7-12700 CPU has 12 cores and 20 threads - a lot of processing power while not even being the fastest. It also draws much less power to do its job, compared to newer CPUs.
I'm glad I chose 12th gen when only this and 13th were available. 6th and 7th gen _(I owned both)_ also had weird stability issues, but those were different and Intel only admitted it 2-3 years later, and have since removed that paper from their website, on what the problem was.
I lost trust in Intel so badly that I waited for 6 more generations to come to market until I considered buying anything else from them. And now with the current fiasco of two other borked generations, as well as incredibly poor communication, I'm happy I don't have to care about their CPUs for a few more years.
@@kneekoo I understand the trust point, I own a 13th gen desktop CPU after all.
(Fortunatly havnt had any issues to date, prior to this i was on 9th gen which didnt have issues.)
The topic is, if given the chance to purchase a Raptor Lake CPU, knowing they had this Vmin Instability issue. should you?
With Arrow Lake coming soon, there will be deals and discounts on 13\14th gen, so people will buy them, doubly so when they are bundled with a Motherboard and RAM.
12th gen isnt readily available anymore, and whilst i agree with all your 12th gen points, (its basicly lower power 13th gen)
It is off topic when looking at "Is 13\14th gen still a viable option for those looking to puchase them post this known Vmin instability issue."
If 13\14th are on sale for a good deal, and you dont have the funds or dont want to wait for Arrow Lake. Then make sure you update you BIOS is the underlying take away, outside of that its not worth worrying about.
(Saying all of that, i still would like more clarity around that 1st seneraio Intel mentioned 🙄)
Two CPU generations plagued by serious issues cannot be considered viable options, unless people don't care about their mental sanity, productivity, and/or have money to waste.
I'm an IT professional and if I had to get new PCs right now, I would choose 12th gen in a heart beat. There's still enough stock around if you don't need hundreds or thousands of them at once. I would happily deal with the added annoyance of buying from multiple suppliers if that's how I get enough CPUs. I wouldn't spend the company's money on stuff that has a great potential of blowing up in my face with replacements, that requires extra support for my colleagues, and causes a decrease in everyone's productivity.
It's not worth it. And if I could postpone the acquisition for 3 more months, I'd simply compare 12th gen against 15th gen. With the 6th and 7th gens I had random freezes, sometimes even 4-5 times a day, and they were so bad that not even the reset button on the case would work. I had to keep the button pressed for over 5 seconds to cycle the power on the PC. But at least that piece of crap CPU had no risk of physical degradation like 13th and 14th gens can have. And I would not have to deal with weird motherboards that (according to Intel) would apply extra voltage on an already bad-by-design CPU.
I get that you'd rather assume you'll never have problems with your CPU. And after my suffering with 6th gen, I really hope that you'll never have to deal with issues with this generation. It quickly becomes a pain, and I can't wish that to anyone. So good luck!
If you are looking at it from a company perspective, want to by in bulk and it has to be a desktop, get a 13\14th gen non K series chip.
They are not impacted by instability (only the K series is)
Intel:
community.intel.com/t5/Processors/Intel-Core-13-14th-Gen-Instability-Update-Future-Products/m-p/1627440/highlight/true#M77071
Dont delay aqusitions or recommend years old hardware that will hit EOL faster.
First of all, don't buy Intel 13th and 14th generation.
If you already have it, limit the voltage to MAX 1.35V. Since the current voltages are too high, about 1.45 - 1.5. If you limit the voltage to 1.35V, you will save your CPU, if it is not degraded jet. This will reduce performance, but save the CPU.
If you're buying a new computer, AMD is the obvious choice. There is no need to even discuss it at this point.
Hi Mate,
In general, i agree with what you are saying, they pull too much power, and running lower power can extend the life and slow degradation.
But regarding Vmin instability, limiting the voltage via BIOS does not appear to get around this.
its why these are being patched via microcode tweak by intel and not by MB manufactures.
If you run a 13\14th gen K series, your chip can request too much power, its not a setting in the BIOS thats doing this but the CPU itself.
Here let me answer that.
Hard No.
Fool me once, blame on you Intel
fool me twice, blame on me
I am not stupid Intel
😂
It's not the motherboard manufacturer's fault. It's Intel's fault for not setting safe required specs for the motherboard manufacturers to adhere to. Please don't spread false information. There are many channels with people with far better expertise on this topic reporting on this topic.
No, I still remember the day I boot up my brand new 13700K system and ran a Cinebench R23, it drew 300W of power immediately resulting in an instant jump to 100C temp. After a few seconds it throttled down to 250ish watt, and my motherboard wasn't even for overclocking, it's just a standard B660 from MSI.
I immediately checked the BIOS and played around with the voltage settings to undervolt it, and after spending some time I was able to undervolt it without losing Cinebench score, which was around 30k. What I did just disable the UVP and change the CPU Lite Load to Mode 8 (mode 7 and below reduced my Cinebench score), and offset it with -140mv.
After applying those changes, it no longer drew more than 220 Watts when running Cinebench and temps drastically reduced, and voltage was also maxed out at 1.2ish volt at idle, 1.1ish volt at full load. Stable 24/7 running since June 2023 without any sign of degradation, and I haven't applied any microcode patches yet.
You see, if I were a noob and didn't know anything about BIOS and undervolting, my CPU would've already been fried and degraded because of the sh ty default BIOS settings.
It's definitely the motherboard manufacturer's fault for giving the CPU too much power.
Hi mate, what you are claiming is right for non K model chips, they will run against Intels specs out of box for the most part.
However, for K series, no. MB manufactures can (not always) will apply their own power and load line specs against the CPU's, and do have a large degree of control over what settings we see when we socket one. That is what Intel are refering to in their article.
Intel set some guidance yet the MB makers did not adhere it strictly - thinking they can get away with it since there had never been a problem before. The goal is of course to even the field with AMD CPUs. So both are guilty.
@@chiyolate Damn. Its good you were able to catch and reign it in.
Undervolting is the way to go almost always, doubly so in todays market where most devices are pumping extra power for the extra 2% gain.
Well, you don't need to be an "expert" to run a few benchmarks and monitor performance and tweak your CPU/MB to behave according to your build and expectations. All the software you need is free and all the knowledge is widely spread on the internet. "Experts" that do not know that or pretend to now know can't be trusted. You should consider filtering your sources carefully before spread accusations to others.
Should I buy Intel i9 13th a 14th gen CPU’s? Absofriggin’lutely not. A flawed architecture. I said this 2 years ago on my channel. Intel was going to have problems with their overpowered CPU’s.
With Arrow lake coming, we will see deals on 13\14th gen chips, For any non K model, they are not impacted and still a working porduct. (them being overpowered is a whole other topic though.) Knowing the K models had this instability, which we now have a RCA from Intel for, it becomes a PSA to update your BIOS's if you or someone you know is planning to grab one of these deals.
It is interesting seeing the division on this topic though, wether or not people would buy one of these affected chips, or Intel in general.
@@John_Morrish Sure, but the problem with Intel’s fix is I now am getting less than what I paid for and that’s blatant “false advertising” on Intels part. I hope a class action lawsuit is brought against Intel for the “false advertising”. Anyone in the know was fully aware that Intel ran ridiculous amounts of power through their chips in order to keep up with Ryzen. Intel CPU’s were destined to fail……..and they did. I’m sure there were engineers within Intel who warned brass of the impending doom, but they were not listening. Although I still satisfy the market by building Intel gaming rigs, I won’t touch the i9 CPU’s. I really don’t trust Intel anymore. In my humble opinion, their present architecture is dead in the socket.
Only overpowering was from motherboards. Asus mainly as it came 100A's over from the box. You needed to set INTEL settings yourself. AMD was having the same trouble not so long ago with Asus burning to crisp in the socket. This because Asus if on recommended settings looses to other manufacturers and to compete they need to go over the safe limits. This goes on all of the Chinese boards. MSI I think is made in Taiwan and safe choice.
@@paulboyce8537 No……sorry…….you are incorrect. The CPU is requesting the voltage……..the motherboard supplies what is requested. Intel’s power draw is ridiculous on its 12th, 13th, and 14th gen CPU’s. Don’t blame it on Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, AsRock, or any other board manufacturer. The problem lies squarely with Intel’s architecture. AMD CPU’s draw half the power of Intel CPU’s. Something ain’t right there 🤔.
@@techluvin7691 Board sets the limit. Board feeds the CPU. If the CPU is fed 100A over it limit it will fry. Maybe check the BIOS options on your motherboard.
I wouldn't buy now, it's a dead platform might as well wait a month or two and get the new CPU's or get AMD.
Hi sir, I recently received a replacement 14th generation Intel processor unit as a replacement for my previous 13th generation unit due to overheating issues. While using the 13th generation processor, I experienced overheating problems but never encountered black or blue screens. Since the replacement, I have not experienced any issues with the 14th generation processor. Given these circumstances, I would like to know if it is advisable to update the BIOS to the latest version, or if it is unnecessary since I am not currently facing any problems. Your expert opinion on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Hi mate,
Yes, Update your BIOS.
Its great you dont have issues currently, the microcode updates are to prevent degredation leading to instability from occuring overtime.
@@John_Morrish thanks sir
U got a 14th gen as a remplacement for a 13th?
@@TixTakChannel This is apparently becoming common as Intel warehouses run out of 13th and have no choice but to replace a failed 13 with an equivalent 14.
@@TixTakChannel yes mate