Final Update from me Today I replied to Northern Railways reply yesterday when they said they would not comment more than was in the standard reply sent to everyone. My email today: I find it totally staggering that you cannot tell me if I can go on a train journey, pay the parking fee on the app and park my bike in the carpark. It's a very simple YES or NO answer. I really would appreciate an answer as I NEED to use the railway. I do understand that it's not you making these rules and apologise to you personally for taking the flack. Many thanks Their reply: Dear Dave, The answer I am afraid is no, you are not allowed to park a motorcycle at Whitby Train station at least for the foreseeable future, So, there we have it, not bike parking irrespective of why you want to park there. I have the answer to my question. I’m now going back to riding my bike now. Ride safe, keep the shiny side up and rubber side down, see you out on the road sometime.
I’d Park there, buy a ticket, any PCN (not a fine) i would take to court, if youve paid to park then there is no fair reason why they would discriminate against a motorcycle, i have a feeling that either the courts would throw it out or the railway would cancel the PCN prior to court
Wow. In time, someone is going to realise that this is discrimination and illegal. In the oldest sense of both words. Do you not have an MP in Whitby? I wish you luck in restoring common law in the UK.
So, one of the reasons for the ban is that motorcycles are taking up a car space. So what? What is the difference between a car parking in a space so that one person can use the train and a motorcycle parking there so that one person can use the train. The transport they use to get to the station is irrelevant.
It’s because they think bikers are all Marlon Brando/Jack Nicholson - Hooligan types. 😂. They’ve probably never even met a biker in their small lives. 😁
I have been watching this with great interest. Well done on your actions questioning this. My local station has designated and free motorcycle parking. I see this as highly suspect. They have not answered your specific questions, nor quoting the bylaws to whom they refer to..wonder why??.. Its nothing more than discrimination. It would be interesting what actions MAG are prepared to take. Keep up the great work..
Due to MAG intervention Northern Rail have now agreed bikes can park in the station car park in the spaces belonging to the Whistle Stop Cafe, once those spaces are full bikes can park in the normal spaces provided they buy a parking ticket, Northern Rail have said riders can park 2 bikes to each parking space as long as they pay for one of the bikes. This is great news.
One thing I'd like to hear of in this whole saga is that Bikers and others keep supporting the Whistle Stop Café who have had a financial rug pulled from under their feet in effectively banning many of their customers from parking near to their premises.
I live in Whitby and I'm absolutely disgusted by this whole saga. The bikers bring lots of revenue to town and never cause any trouble (unlike some visitors). I visit the Whistlestop from time to time, they are lovely people who are certainly going to feel the effect of this ban. I'm going to make sure I call in for a cuppa each time I go into town to try and give them some support. I sincerely hope that this will be resolved soon.
Someone either powerful or very persistent will have complained about bike parking. Official "Jobsworths" will rarely do anything which makes their lives more difficult unless they're forced into it.
Yeah, at one point, my mates and I all had Mazda Bongos, which were not classed as Motorhomes (because stupid rules, including 'decals' ) but that didn't stop a mate from getting a ticket for parking in car park as they tried to class his bongo as a Motorhome. He sent them a copy of the registration docs,... took some arguing, but they backed down eventually.
I can understand the campervan rule if they stay too long and space there are very few vacancies. Also, some places might have issues with dumping the liquid waste water or littering. Otherwise, if the campers are respectful and they park at the further end of the lot, I see no issues. Otherwise for long stays, a reasonable parking space rental fee is reasonable.
@@Bodcab68 How can one 'abuse' parking? The UK is supposed to be a free country and has adequate space on PUBLIC roads. If space is provided then it will be used, today all authority is at war with the public: This Must Stop. The council and other corporations abuse us.
@@Bodcab68 Perhaps the question revolves around the definition of a motor vehicle, not whether it is occupying a given space. As far as I am aware, a motorbike is subject to the same road-usage regulations as a car. It must be licensed, taxed, MOT'd, registered, and on a public road operated by a licensed driver... The V5 for my CAR is identical in format to the V5 for my bike - only the words are different. As such, a motorbike is classified as a VEHICLE, as is a car, and is subject to IDENTICAL usage regulations as a car. There is some reasonableness in limiting parking to private vehicles, and restricting access to very large vehicles (commercial trucks, for example) but a private motor VEHICLE should have access, irrespective of its format. It is the SPACE that is being rented, and if my VEHICLE can occupy that space within its defined boundary (the painted lines), then the size and format of my VEHICLE is irrelevant.
This will end up being complaints from car drivers and someone who made this decision thinking that no one would question it. That has now backfired and they don't know how to make their mistake go away. I would love to see it challenged in court.
I had a similar problem of being stonewalled with a complaint about British Airways. I followed some advice I heard on a Radio 4 phone in. I did a quick internet trawl and found the personal e-mail address of the CEO of British Airways and contacted them directly ( sending the e-mail in the evening ). The problem was resolved with an apology by 9.30 the next day.
Thank you for taking the trouble to ask the questions, even though the answers are shite, but that is out of your control. Lets hope it will make someone have the balls to stand up and take responsibility.
As they are either unable or unwilling to identify specific by-laws relating to motorcycle parking,I would suggest that you park your motorcycle in the station car park,fines and/or penalties cannot be levied on a generalised unspecified "by-law,basically,if they cannot identify specific by-laws,you cannot be deemed to be in contravention of a "by-law" that has not been specified.
The astonishing cheek of the railway communications team doubling down on "Why? Because I say so! Your mother and I have decided and we will not be discussing this any further young man- uh! Go to your room!"
A similar thing happened at Helmsley. Helmsley in North Yorkshire is a popular destination for bikers to meet up on a Sunday. A number of years ago they started to charge for parking, so bikes would pay for one ticket per bay and park 2-4 bikes in that bay. Their argument being that bikes were smaller than cars and obviously took up less room. The parking officials stated that they couldnt do this and it had to be 1 ticket per bike. So the bikers that visited each got a ticket, but parked 1 bike per bay, reducing the amount for bays for cars. Whitby is simply discriminating against bikers, which i find in this day and age quite draconian, stopping someone belonging to a certain 'group' from doing something is disgusting and possibly illegal. What next? You cant park there if you drive a Ford or if you are Chinese or male in your 20's? What possible reason can they have for discriminating in this way?
@@auditpundit1199 Any discrimination to any group whether on private or public land is wrong. Unfortunately it has to be of a protected characteristic (I think there are 8, and your chosen mode of transport isn't one of them) before it becomes illegal. This can be on public or private land.
So basically, they've taken a decision to discriminate against motorcyclists, which they are unable to justify on any rational, non discriminatory grounds. That decision looks ripe for judicial review to me!
@occamraiser Lol, are you serious? 🤪 Car parks everywhere include provision for motorcycles, but they still referred to as 'car parks'. 🙄 Your 'count yourself lucky' nonsense is clearly discriminatory. Remember, we are all motorists. Our choice of mode of transport, doesn't change that. Car drivers are no better and no more important than motorcyclists.
It’s ridiculous they cannot give an answer to your legitimate & specific questions. I can’t see this ban/fine being up held legally, if challenged by a motorcyclist, who pays for parking & is parked correctly. Let’s hope common sense prevails & this gets clarified quickly.
What a load of bikers need to do is park in the car park spaces, 1 bike per space and pay for a ticket. I suppose it is calling their bluff over whether they can uphold the claim of no bikes in court or not. As long as no bikers chance their are then you will never no if it is enforceable. If it is not enforceable by the Railway a few days of taking every car park space up would most probably change their mind or may be not. All the best either way.
@@thebrowns5337it's government land. The rail company pays for a franchise to operate the railway, they don't own the land, the track or the rolling stock.
It is discriminating against a minority group. Also many bikers take their motorcycling as a religion, don't they!!! that is the railway company possibly being racist as well@@alzon5712
I imagine this will turn out to be a significant public relations disaster for Northern Rail with the bike prohibition rescinded very soon. You can almost hear the sound of several shovels digging a very deep hole at Railway HQ.
Thanks for making the effort on this Dave, will be interesting to see what happens in terms of response to your valid questions 🏍️👍, like most people I don’t see how they can prosecute someone when they have payed to park legally regardless of what mode of transport we are using.
Light a fire under the MP for Whitby on this one: They're required to publish the bylaws, which they appear not to have done. The MP can ask the awkward question in Parliament - for instance, PMs Questions. They have to bend over and spread 'em when there's a PMQ involved, after all.
The car park is monitored by an anpr camera that photographs a car when entering the car park. As a motorcycle doesn't have a front plate, they can't match it to a ticket. That's why they don't want bikes.
Send your correspondence to your local MP, Sir Robert Goodwill, and ask him to take up the matter on your behalf. It's surprising how effective this is if your MP actually does something.
Problem here is that they outsource the enforcement to dodgy companies. If you get a ticket from them there is no way of turning back it will end in fines and bailiffs act. You cannot ring these people and is a one way traffic to a hefty fine. I parked in a local hospital where my mum was dying. On arrival you have to enter your rev no. 1 day out of 27 I failed to do this due to being distracted. Ended up with £200 fine by delaying payment. Hospital were useless just saying car park wasn’t theirs. How we put up with this crap I don’t know. The hospital inferred the company were nothing but criminals and subject of many complaints but are incommunicable. No phone numbers. I appealed they denied receiving my appeal evidenced b6 e mail. No humans to talk to. Started getting fines, bailiffs letters so at least£200 i paid. We collectively need to breach every nanny state laws. No ulez no road tax until they repair/build roads, no,parking charges, no speed cameras. They are all indirect taxes on people that hav3 vehicles registered to them. Spying everywhere
Hi. If you use the FOI (freedom of information) request. They should respond to very direct and succinct questions. If they don't respond then they can be reported and that could be implied in the request for info. Hope that helps. Bloody ridiculous as that maybe. Worth a try though. There's also probably a human rights act issue with motorcyclists being treated differently from other groups. Good luck and happy biking, SteveH.
@@alexmorgan3435 It could be argued that it's a "culture". And knowing how far the HRA has been stretched in the past, nothing would surprise me. However, its not the route that should be taken. The ban should bee seen as an unfair act by a public service provider and repealed on that basis.
It's quite a weird world we seem to have found ourselves in when it comes to asking specific questions these days. Equally, it seems that there is no longer any regulation or even sense of duty and good manners to communicate purpose or justification on the part of large organisations. It feels like only social media remains to tackle issues, whether they be motorbike related or indeed connected to the large companies we have to deal with to live our daily lives. Of course there is the power of protest and bikers often choose that as a path to resolution. Be interesting to see what happens next as spring returns...
You say these large companies don't communicate and then you give a positive view on social media. I find it completely reversed... I don'g have social media and the odd time I find a change like this parking issue the company/authority involves always say 'we posted it on social media'. I think thats why they no longer bother with trying... theyassume everyone loves and uses social media.
@@thebrowns5337 Hello. Perhaps you misunderstood my note… I made the point that “only social media” remains as a way of bringing issues like these to large organisations’ attention these days. In other words, they have to be publicly pressured to a larger audience in order that they feel any need to address feedback. The more decisions like these are shared, the more attention they are given. It’s not about giving a positive view on social media. More a last resort when companies otherwise blatantly ignore complaints by sending generic responses without addressing the actual correspondence they receive…
the manager who thought this was a good idea will of left and got a nice middle management job for the NHS by next spring and no one else will remember why it was brought in or by whom but they will take it as a legacy issue and refuse to revoke it.
Mate, I was in MAG at the start, still have my "ride free" sticker and did the Fred Hill runs, London, Cardiff, Winson Green etc. etc. all made zero difference, just an excuse for a day out in the end as we realised that even 20,000 bikers had zero clout about nowt in the real world.
@@malverned382 Good on you for trying. It’s never too easy to change directions of powers that be. One simple way of protesting that may have more economic influence is for bikers to boycott the town until they revert back to not discriminating against bikers. When businesses see a reduction in revenue they will very likely apply more convincing pressure on decision makers.
I have sent them this Freedom of Information Request: 1. Why has Northern Rail taken the decision to ban motorcycle parking at Whitby station? 2. Which committee or officer in particular made this decision? 3. How, precisely, were the local community consulted? 4. What research was made to ascertain the economic effects on local business? 5. What effort was made to contact the motorcycling community through meeting with representative organisations to discuss this prior to the ban? 6. What projections were made of the impact of this action on the public profile of Northern Rail? 7. What appeals process has been put in place and if no appeals process has been put in place, the reason for this. I require immediate acknowledgement of receipt of this official request. May I remind you that you have 20 working days in which to fulfil the request by statute. Yours sincerely ‐‐------------------ They have to answer a FOI reqymuest by law. Let's see exactly how they answer these questions....
Well done in taking the actions you have - hopefully MAG can help bring all this together and get some response. I suspect it's a case of someone high-up doesn't like bikes or a few complaints about parking owing to bikes have caused this. Another good reason to be a MAG member!
I don't have much faith in MAG to be honest, none of these organisations are fighting this Great Reset agenda in general. All our freedoms and choices are being taken away since the whole convid thing basically.
I think it’s bylaw 14 they are trying to twist to suit themselves. The full bylaws are on the government website. I used to have copies of the rules and regulations as I worked on the railway for over forty years.only retiring a few years ago…northern has a poor performance record and should be trying to attract passengers not alienate them..good luck in your endeavours.
Well done Dave I appreciate your different approach. It’s not just the railways the whole country is run by incompetents. As you say ultimately it maybe the cafe that suffers. As an old duffer 74 I’ve never got involved with pay by phone parking, unless I’ve got “her indoors” with me who can deal with modern tech. Time to research some of the other car parks in Whitby. 😊
Well it seems to me that the problem sits in whistle stop cafés corner. Those of you with biking history of the sixties, seventies nighties will remember the milk bar now known as squires. The café was in the village and caused a serious amount of issues and brought about a plethora of complaints. Squires decided to invest in an old public house outside the village and look at it now. The answers the same, move the café away to a more suitable venue and watch it grow. The current venue is not good for acces, on nice days Whitby can be shocking for congestion and, revenue created by so many gentleman who chose to spend their money in Whitby can be spent in more deserving places that appreciate the customers. If the town of Whitby thinks they can survive without us then take a look at other seaside resorts. Sorry about the ranting but this is being posted everywhere. No matter what, nothings going to change it. Very much enjoy and look forward to your videos and I'm glad to see you've been able to replace Ivey. Cheers.
An excellent approach to this issue, using reasoned questions to get the answers. It’s odd they are unwilling to explain the rationale behind this. I’m just wondering if they are compelled to provide bike parking, for station users under their charter for accessibility for all? There a nagging doubt in my mind that this will become a landmark legal ruling that others can cite and implement bans without discussion. It’s daft that a ready source of revenue for the railway without them needing to provide any service for the money is being ignored. Still looking at their business results………
Well done bud, l look forward to further updates in regard to your questions, it sounds to me that they have gone ahead with this action without really thinking it through
Whitby have been anti-motorcycle for several years. We used to park on the harbour bandstand area until they stopped it. There appeared to be no reason why it was stopped, other than they didn’t want motorcycles using it.
Well done Dave , good effort on all us Motorcyclists behalf, looking forward to seeing the conclusion of this prejudice act , if the railway's think this is going unanswered they're greatly mistaken.
I've been watching this situation with interest. I'm not familiar with Whitby Station but the question I have is do they have cameras that read registration numbers for parking fine situations? If so, is the problem that they read only front plates and therefore can't monitor bikes? To ban bikes that have paid parking charges is discrimatory which, given the current attitude that we cannot discriminate against any minority, leads me to believe that this is, in fact, illegal.
@@alexmorgan3435 that's true however that is changing very quickly with the increase in payment apps and ticket machines where you put in your reg. number. We need to resign ourselves to paying for parking, particularly in busy car parks. You don't need to display a ticket any more and therefore the reason motorbikes didn't have to pay no longer exists in many places
The UK as a whole is very pro car. Usually at the expense of other transport methods and indeed consideration of others. Mention building a new cycle lane, at a fraction of the cost of road repairs, and watch people kick off with insults.
I have travelled from Whitby station. I ride a motorcycle and I am disabled and have a blue badge. What would they try do to me if I parked there in a disabled bay? Would they be illegally discriminating against the disabled if they tried to ticket me?
You won't get an answer from them on that one, but might I suggest that with signs up stating 'no motorcycles', you might find it hard to argue that they are giving you a ticket for any other reason.
Genuinely curious, do you have a blue badge for the bike, that you can display when in a disabled bay, without fear of it getting stolen? But to answer the question - it's a private car park - they can set whatever terms they wish, and they are not stopping you parking your car in the car park, only the bike. So there would be no grounds that they are discriminating you based on disability.
As a lifelong biker, and also someone who's family comes from Whitby, and as someone who comes up once a year for a 2 week holiday and bayfest and trips on the NYMR, I would say a lot of commentators on here need to search "Whitby bike NIght" on here just to see how busy it gets. On a busy one the car spaces and everywhere else around is rammed with bikes, including the pavements all around. I expect locals or someone with clout, or retired types with time on their hands will have complained, this lobby demographic is similar as per other meeting places and similar events / ride ins around the UK where local folks kick up. The actual fact is though, despite several comments on here about non riders and tourists "liking the bikes", the vast majority of the public in general in the UK don't, I have actually heard adverse comments as a "civilian" in the years past I have attended, where because I am dressed like a tourist folks will feel a bit more open about what they actually think, or not interrupt their bitching while eating chips over the way as they would if I sat near with bike gear on. Not seen any really crazy stuff in the last 7 years I have been coming up, but just what we riders accept as normal, ie. some folks giving it a few revs and blipping as arriving and leaving, and the like....This is seen as childish and anti social by many, and I guarantee anyone who has attended Whitby cannot hand on heart say that although most attendees are fine, the odd events as above do happen. Only takes one person walking / with kids to made to jump, and that's another enemy to our sport. Same thing happened neared me up in Bewdley, a few half wits ruined it for everyone, It would be interesting to find out who started this ball rolling, and their own personal interactions with 2 wheels in the past. Also a lesson in observation, as a rider I love to wander round chatting and looking at the stuff at ride ins, but in Whitby in the past as (on appearance) just another a tourist sat over by the Orlop eating chips and watching the comings and goings and folks doing laps over the bridge and back, and the reaction of more than a few tourists to loud bikes passing, you realise this has been coming for some time I would say, maybe a victim of it's own success....
Being bloody minded, I'd take the bike, park it in a bay and pay by phone - then fight the bastards if they try to fine me. Their likelihood of winning in a court is unlikely, due to its unreasonableness - especially since you have paid for parking.
I watched with great interest your video and read the comments... I used to live in Yorkshire for a year and a half many MANY moons ago but I'm not familiar with Whitby Railway station (bloody foreigner here🙃) So, I opened good old Google Maps and got me some general understanding of the area. Besides satellite view there are also numerous "street level" stills... Not being there certainly does not show the reality on the ground. My very subjective conclusions based on that one satellite picture of the parking lot and dozen of street level photos are: - the parking area directly in the front of Witby station is limited - as far as I've noticed there are some 60-65 parking bays - on Google maps (outdated!) satellite image there are clearly visible some 15 bikes parked neatly one next to another occupying 4-5 parking bays close to the entrance to the building and Whistle Stop Café - There is also much bigger parking across the street, some 200ft/100m from the Train Station, closer to the wharf, with some guesstimated 320+ parking bays. I don't know what are the conditions of use and if the prices are the same as at parking space closer to the train. Generally I understand the possible problem seeing dozens of bikes parked. I am a biker myself and I see in my country all the time non responsible bikers parking wherever and however they please. Honestly I am totally surprised that officials reacted at all to the "bike situation" and went for a ban, which leads me to conclusion that problem was big enough to warrant their reaction! We all know how slow and unresponsive the bureaucracy is, and how they never want to be disturbed in their slumber, but still proceeded with the decision!? Then I took the liberty to look up the train timetable for Whitby, only to discover that there are 2 destinations with 5 services to and from Hexham and Middlesbrough with total of 10 trains DAILY (Mon-Fri) roughly every 2 hours. Material online suggests that Whitby station has 0.130 million passengers a year, in normal numbers 130.000, so daily mon-fri it gives around 520 passengers, 50-odd souls per train, although its more likely that commuter trains in the morning and in the evening are more crowded... This could mean that commuters leaving cars on the train station parking during the day, have just about number of bays needed. But from the other side, still images in all cases show half empty parking lot... Difficult to assess from a distance. But all in all seems to me that Whitby station is not a busy hub bursting with thousands of passengers every hour all falling over improperly parked hundreds of bikes. Obviously that ONE complaint fell on fertile soil, some 'pencil...' errr 'mouse-pusher ' simply decided to earn some extra Brownie points and an additional smily on the monthly report Generally, You are right, though, as the hastily implemented simplest solution of the officials "banning" bikers is flawed. The issue obviously must be resolved by dedicating specific parking area for bikers. But this will take much more effort and time, as you have to fight stubbornness and stupidity of officials. Do we expect those same officials that were just recently awoken from slumber to deal with "a situation" and to have to reverse it or even - blasphemy - to solve it properly? Just recall all the clever decisions and ingenious rules created at the time of Corona Story all over the World all of them created by some zealot trying to prove its existence Their answers to any enquiry are purposely disconnected from questions and from reality. Knowing how they are keen and passionate in imposing fines in my country, and knowing how slow, inefficient and silly is the system, I would do my best to not give them the satisfaction of dragging me to court, which would include me losing full day of work, travel back and forth to the nearest regional court some 400km away, stress induced and money thrown away for being Don Quixote, all of this only to prove them wrong... or not? Saying "it's better to be smart than right" applies here Me, personally, would most likely park across the street next to the wharf and curse them on my way to the café/train station But that's me...
The Motorcycle ban is unlikely to stand up if tested in court. I shall continue to park my motorbike in the station car park and pay by app. I therefore have audit trail proof of correct payment and therefore i am complying with the parking regulations and bye-laws. If fined I will simply not pay and eventually argue my case if necessary in court. I am confident that judgement would be in my favour. Northern Rail can of course change their bye laws, but that will take time and may in itself be subject to legal challenge.
I was about to say the same thing. Also, how about early one morning enough motorcyclists turn up at the station car park, fill all the available parking bays, each pay the correct car fee using the app and see what happens! The court system would collapse if they tried to prosecute everyone.
We regularly took breaks in the east of Yorkshire, off season. Greed and overcharging has killed this for us. A week in the Med. is cheaper than a long weekend in Yorkshire!
The Thursday night "Bike Meet" attracts tourists or haven't they realised this? It's well known throughout the UK by bikers that there is a Whitby meet every Thursday! I'm in Scotland and my biker pals know about it and try to visit when they can, not always on their bikes but often by car.
Pay for a parking space - whether or not you use a car or motorcycle should be irrelevant. This also assumes that everyone using this parking has access to a Smart phone to which you can download the app. No consideration given for those without Smart phone. Very poor customer service. Sad times 🤔🤔
Thank you for taking this a stage further by framing your questions in a way which will certainly have put them on the spot. The responses are predictably non committal if not thoroughly uncooperative. Such a lack of willingness to engage with inquiries like yours is usually an indication of an organisation struggling to justify what appears to have been a knee jerk reaction without having given thought to a process of 3 way negotiation between the rail company, the cafe and the bikers. This would have been a much more reasonable and understandable approach. I agree that bikers should pay to park there which would address the revenue side of the argument. As for the "nuisance" side of things (bikes parked inappropriately) surely this should form part of the normal parking enforcement process as employed with cars parked in breach of the regulations. Thanks again.
I suspect that they are referring to the following two bylaws in the section relating to "Control of Premises": 13. Unauthorised access and loitering No person shall: 1. enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice: 1. prohibiting access or 2. indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category 2. loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person 14. Traffic signs, causing obstructions and parking 1. no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall use it on any part of the railway in contravention of any traffic sign 2. no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway: 1. in any manner or place where it may cause an obstruction or hindrance to an operator or any person using the railway or 2. otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an operator or an authorised person 3. no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall park it on any part of the railway where charges are made for parking by an operator or an authorised person without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by an operator or an authorised person at that place 4. in England and Wales 1. the owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area 2. without prejudice to Byelaw 14(4)(i), any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be clamped, removed, and stored, by or under the direction of an operator or authorised person 3. the owner of the motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall be liable to an operator or an authorised person for the costs incurred in clamping, removing and storing it provided that there is in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these byelaws may be clamped, removed and stored by an operator or an authorised person and that the costs incurred by an operator or an authorised person for this may be recovered from the vehicle’s owner 4. the power of clamping and removal provided in Byelaw 14(4)(ii) above shall not be exercisable in any area where passenger parking is permitted unless there is on display in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these byelaws may be clamped and/or removed by an operator or an authorised person 5. in Scotland Any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of this byelaw in Scotland may be removed by or under the direction of a constable
Back in the 90s Westminster council closed all the free motorcycle parking bays and introduced bike parking meters. Everyone stopped using them and started parking behind the brass strip on the pavements. The brass strip marks the boarder between private property and the public pavements. You cannot be given a parking ticket on private property so unless the various companies decided to put up signs and start locking and towing away motorcycles parked on their property you are OK to park. If you know Westminster you will know that a lot of the pavements are quite narrow and if it was not for the areas behind the brass strips people would end up walking in the road and guess what. Yes as the coach loads of tourists turned up and disembarked swarms of them ended up in the road. Within a year all the bike parking meters were removed and free bay were back. I wonder if anyone was sacked I very much doubt it.
Credit due to you for taking the time and trouble to try to get some definitive answers. From the last two replies you have received regarding your very credible question’s they have done a very good job of avoiding a positive response. Obviously there is no British Rail “Bye Law” as they have not stated the Ref number for the Bye-Law. An d on parking spaces which you stated you understand that you are happy to pay for to that question was also avoided. It all smells of someone in a powerful position dose not like Motorcyclists!! And doesn’t want to see motorcyclists in Whitby. Thank you for all your great efforts in trying to get some proper answers
I've always parked the bike in the carpark near the tourist information center (marina/Langbourne Rd) or The Fleece. There's a few free M/C spaces in both with railings you can lock up to. Charging bikes the same as cars is why I now rarely visit Helmsley
Discrimination on 2 levels 1) Discriminating between cars and motorcycles - how do they know the car drivers are using the train, and therefore those not using the train are allowed to continue parking their cars there 2) Discriminating against motorcyclists who use the trains I understand their conundrum, but they could surely register number plates at time of purchasing train tickets, would resolve issue. I'd buy a motorcycle & Sidecar, wonder where they'd go with that! Alternatively, park motorcycle, pay, buy train ticket & await the fine? Send them copy of payments for both parking and use of train and accuse them of blatent discrimination and a court case / lots media coverage.
Follow the money, likely being earmarked for EV chargers so can't be seen to allow "far right" polluting bikers use the spaces, when authorities start discrimination it's always to do with money and corporate criminals.
The chances are that the car park owner is not the Operator. The Terms and Conditions signs at Whitby Station car park almost certainly include words to the effect that the sign states the full terms and conditions for parking - and it almost certainly uses "vehicles" throughout the text. If I am right - and you pay the parking charge - then you will have fulfilled the Terms and Conditions in full, regardless of the type of vehicle. Look for: "... parking Terms and Conditions apply which are set out in this notice (the "Parking Contract")" and: "The Parking Contract shall form the entire agreement between the parties and any variation of the terms shall not be valid unless confirmed in writing by [the Car Park Operator]." There's no tort if you fulfil the terms and conditions on that notice because they give you a parking permit. A charged public car park conveys an implicit Invitation to Treat which is confirmed by the tariff signs. There's no trespass if parking is permitted - although if the owner asks you to leave before you've paid you will have to politely show them the sign. If they still insist, you'll have to leave to avoid committing Aggravated Trespass - but not if you've already paid. Ignoring a sign which prohibits public access to railway premises (building sites or government property) is also Aggravated Trespass (which is their byelaw thing in their letter), but if public access is allowed... it is allowed until a Court is satisfied that you have committed a criminal offence - but Courts will prefer to consider a thing as a tort rather than as a crime. If you get a ticket for parking a motorcycle, appeal to the Operator. If that is rejected, appeal to PoPLA. The latter is an approved independent Alternate Dispute Tesolution provider, and can only consider compliance with the contract, so you'll win at appeal without costs. Interesting case, though: Send this one to The Black Belt Barrister on UA-cam for comment.
Here is a thought at 6:27 they say 'the decision to implement a ban on motorcycles follows feedback into car parking at Whitby station'. What was this feedback and can we see it. Also it would be interesting to see if car parking for ICE car was objected to on environmental grounds. More power to your elbow - subbed.
The text of the new sign uses the phrase "Unauthorised parking will result in a penalty...". However, noting that while it also starts with the phrase "No motorcycle parking", is it not reasonable to make the case that the purchase of a parking ticket 'authorises' the parking of any (reasonable) vehicle in the car park? This would - to my mind at least - demonstrate some ambiguity in the restriction notice, that could be tested in court for the princely sum of 50-quid.
Just looked up the location on google maps, and I'm wondering, does that ban include the two bays that the cafe have marked for motor cycle parking only?
I used to work for the railway. I used my bike for on call. So how would Northern Rail respond to me turning up to help with an incident on the bike? At the time, Network Rail saw this as a benefit, not a problem.
Haven't been to Whitby for a long time, even in a car. I have found a lot of ABE's there (anti biker establishments) several of the fish and chip shops td us they were closing and then let other people in, the florist at the railway station tried to get my friend arrested for sitting eating an ice cream several years ago. We were not causing any trouble, we were just having a day out enjoying riding the moors and going into Whitby for a bite to eat.
Does this apply just for the railway station car park? Are the other car parks on Langborne Road available to park? One of them has a square bay marked M/C it’s only small though
You could use a response to a local council. We all booked/paid for a parking space. We then all turned up on bikes and parked one bike, one space. 3/4 was full as against the orginal bike bay. The council reinstated the m/bike bay
Being a rail worker, and this issue has been dicussed in Norwich messroom! "You know you cant park your bike at Whitby anymore?" The general language is "we have have a rule we cant enforce" Some Tory MP must of complained! Railway men ride bikes too!
Sadly, authorities will cowardly hide behind a wall of ignorance as this has always worked in the past. Westminster seems to be a prime example for certain groups. Can’t honestly see anything done in towards progress in this matter because it’s not the way they are even halfway capable of thinking.
No rime/reason for this despicable behaviour of Northern Railway; about to name/shame people behibd this scene. Next tim e I would advice to correspond only to either your local MP or to the highest manager/CEO for that matter. Unfortunately these days there is no 'knowledge' at any level in these organisations, they are a waste in space and your time. Buy a parking ticket on your bike registration and sue them through the Small Claims Court or creat crowd funding to create costs toward Northern R they can't ignore. Sueing is the best way to get CEOs down! Great upload thanks.
For commuters it could be easily sorted by having a specific bike parking area. I expect somewhere like Whitby would need space for about 4 bikes. In the right location, no more than 2 car spaces. From what I've seen elsewhere it's a little used station, mostly used by tourists. If bikers are meeting in the evenings during the week, what time do the trains run until? Surely there can be no issue with bikes using it as a point of road safety and convenience. I just had a look at the area on google maps and looks like the cafe is actually part of the station building. Is there one disgruntled person complaining there's nowhere to park and that there's one bike using a whole space, which is down to car park management, rather than a moan about bikes. Not being able to supply the specific by laws and the wording. I can smell a big stinking rat. Meeting at a cafe should also be lauded by the police as bikers aren't meeting at a pub
A rubbish new world. As an ex customer services manager I am appalled at this approach by companies to basically ignore any inconvenient dialogue. It is the same stance that politicians use and of course with the advancing use of Ai, there is literally no turning back. I wonder who is making all the money training these clowns to stop using their brains? As a biker, it is bad enough that facilities aren’t being provided enough for an expanding activity. Take a look at Boscastle CP!! Stay safe everyone and find your own coping mechanism. I’m desperately seeking 🤔😢
This is an example of a video which has blindsided me because I've suddenly discovered an aspect of the world I never even considered was an issue. I've parked in many car parks using my motorcycle. Where there isn't specific motorcycle parking, I've just parked in a normal bay. I've never considered this could be an issue, because yeah what else are you supposed to do and why would that be an issue? Fortunately I've never had an issue. I am person, not a motorcycle or a car. It doesn't matter if I take my motorcycle or my car, I'm going to be occupying a space on the car park. To say motorcycle users are using a space preventing a car using it, is bizarre and obtuse, my choice of vehicle is not relevant, I'm a user occupying a space, why does it matter if I use a bike or a car to occupy that space? Why as a person using a motorcycle am I considered less valid than a person using a car? Should I fit a big metal ring around my bike making it the same size as a car? Does that make me a valid car park user then? I'm the same person occupying a space for the same reason. If you prevent me going on my bike, I'll just go in the car instead, nothing is gained, I'm still occupying a space. Except not everybody has that option. And in more forward thinking places if they realise there are a lot of motorcycle users they can create parking for motorcycles in places that wouldn't fit a car, or put multiple motorcycles in a space that would only occupy a single car, which creates more spaces for cars. A very bizarre logic that they refuse to explain. I'd continue to park there as normal, park in a normal space, pay as normal, so they be forced to explain their logic through the legal channels if they want to create an issue out of me using the car park and paying same as anybody else.
Those letters of yours are excellent. They’re to the point, specific, and not in the least hostile (a million miles from so much I see, especially online). Whoever made the decision to ban bikes did not think it through, and I suspect their reluctance to reveal the relevant byelaw is because it’ll show they’ve acted unlawfully. I don’t dispute that it was nice to be able to park for free outside the cafe, but many times I’ve been and it’s been too busy so I’ve paid for a parking space (though often there’s no car spaces available). There’s obviously been a big pushback on this and I’ll bet they’re all desperately pointing fingers round a table to allocate blame, whilst trying to decide what to do. My guess is they’ll relent and start providing a dedicated bike area where charges apply.
As an ex biker who unfortunately can no longer ride due to severe osteoarthritis in both knees, I can slightly understand the railway company if they are getting a lot of bikers filling the carpark and not leaving anywhere for people using the trains. I;m puzzled as to why do bikers going to Whistlestop use the station carpark anyway , as there is a mahoosive carpark behind it.
I would suggest three things. 1. Get everyone you know, and every motorcyclist within reach of Whitby, to write a formal complaint to Norther Railways. 2. Raise a complaint against Northern with Railways Ombudsman. 3. Use you new MP Alison Hume - write to her setting out the issue and the lack of response to legitimate questions especially in regard to the bylaws they refuse to itemise. Put pressure on them from all sides, and see how long until they cave.
Use the carpark, pay the tariff, if you get a fine, refuse to pay so it goes to court - they'll have to cite the bylaw to win. There's obviously no bylaw to the fine will be dropped.
Responses are just examples of incompetent management. Unwilling to explain the rational of why they cannot do a good job. The registration system overcomes all the points about identifying whether the vehicle has paid or not. Your questions were good and polite, to the point and concise. Good luck with ever getting a sensible result. A good company would sack people who write such rubbish.
Make an official complaint, there will be a process they have to follow, it will be delt with by their complaints team. If someone makes a complaint it has to be delt with officially. You have asked for information and been fobbed off. They can't do this if you make an official complaint as it is part of their Franchise agreement.
The car park down the road from where I live is ‘free parking for motorcycles.’ This includes marked bays. I park in a corner, next to a wall and telegraph pole, in a space you might just manage to park 1/4 of an original mini. I am not in anyone’s way, or preventing any cars from parking. As a result no one minds. If they made me pay, it still would not be a problem, as the first hour is free. I get home when the parking becomes free in half an hour, and leave for work before I have to pay., so I would still park for free. I would just have to get a 1 hour free ticket, and park in a bay. Preventing a car from parking.
I've seen a car parked across two spaces , so we should ban all cars form using that car park , RIGHT ? Saying some biker do the wrong thing so ban all of them is just plan discrimination .
Ban the motorcycle because he uses a car parking spot, so now he has to leave the bike at home and drive the car. So, the car spot is still used. What have they gained?
I don't know about UK but in canada a Bylaw must display the Bylaw number ( so you can look it up ) and must be expalained on request. If there is no Bylaw number on the sign then it is not an official Bylaw and cannot be enforced.
I parked my bike in a Coventry multi story car park only to be told I'd get a penalty ticket even though I'd paid the parking fee because Motorcycles are not allowed to park in that particular car park! WTF? I won't be going to Coventry again!!!
Only way you will get it changed back is if you go after the council, Protest out side building, block them in at home time, like the Stop Oil protests then someone will take notice.
If SABA run that car park then they should provide you with a copy of the bylaws related to the car park they manage. I do not see any rules in their notices about motorbikes being banned from parking and the station does not appear to display any signs to that effect either. If this is their new rule then their bylaws document needs updating because right now there is nothing in it to indicate that motorcycles are banned from Whitby station or any other station for that matter.
Mate as a Moter Cyclist I feel for your problem but the fact is i live in Australia and the only reason i'm commenting is i really enjoyed the ride through the English countryside it's been awhile since i was there hoping you post more thank you
well written! In Germany and Austria there are more and more bans for motocycles, and we need as a community to fight those. This is however a confortation not only with the authorities, but also towards our fellow motocyclists who are at the root of the reasons e.g. unneccerssary loud exhausts, etc.
Was it you who did the "what constitutes a motorbike person" video? Sounded like you. Might be an ex copper. Said about the sound and run to window to look and recognise types of engine by sound??
I am not a biker i drive a car but i am disgusted at this decision by Network rail/Northern Railways to ban Bikers from the car park, i have been using the whistle stop whenever i am in whitby and you couldn't meet a nicer bunch of guys, they are part of whitby's History and i loved to see all the Bikers arriving on thursdays when they all meet up, Network rail/Northern Railways need to think again this is a very bad decision and i for one fully support the bikers to keep using the car park.
Had the same problem with motorbike parking in Canterbury , when the motorbike places where full , so parked in a car parking space , attendant told me to move , but unknown to him I had a piece of paper in my pocket with information from the car park owners , that if the motorcycle places where full we where entitled to use car parking spaces , he then said I had to pay for car parking space . With which I told him the letter said nothing about having to pay , and that if I did , the next car driver passing would walk by , pinch the ticket and put it in his car . I therefore asked as I didn’t require a ticket for the motorbike he was wrong . He never bothered again bone checked the rules . He struck me as a bit of a jobs worth , who initially didn’t know the rules 😊👍😡😂😂
If they allow you to buy a parking ticket, I would say that's a contract regardless of the type of vehicle? I also wonder how they plan to monitor this? Supermarkets do a pretty shambolic job of enforcing disabled parking and they use a national company to handle this for them.
Final Update from me
Today I replied to Northern Railways reply yesterday when they said they would not comment more than was in the standard reply sent to everyone.
My email today:
I find it totally staggering that you cannot tell me if I can go on a train journey, pay the parking fee on the app and park my bike in the carpark.
It's a very simple YES or NO answer.
I really would appreciate an answer as I NEED to use the railway.
I do understand that it's not you making these rules and apologise to you personally for taking the flack.
Many thanks
Their reply:
Dear Dave,
The answer I am afraid is no, you are not allowed to park a motorcycle at Whitby Train station at least for the foreseeable future,
So, there we have it, not bike parking irrespective of why you want to park there.
I have the answer to my question. I’m now going back to riding my bike now. Ride safe, keep the shiny side up and rubber side down, see you out on the road sometime.
I have a trike would they class it as a car or a motorbike if i was to park there. Guess would just see if hot the ticket or not
Guess everything/one in this modern world is inclusive.......unless you ride a motorcycle.
I’d Park there, buy a ticket, any PCN (not a fine) i would take to court, if youve paid to park then there is no fair reason why they would discriminate against a motorcycle, i have a feeling that either the courts would throw it out or the railway would cancel the PCN prior to court
Wow. In time, someone is going to realise that this is discrimination and illegal. In the oldest sense of both words. Do you not have an MP in Whitby? I wish you luck in restoring common law in the UK.
But what about the legal case being opened up by solicitors?
So, one of the reasons for the ban is that motorcycles are taking up a car space. So what? What is the difference between a car parking in a space so that one person can use the train and a motorcycle parking there so that one person can use the train. The transport they use to get to the station is irrelevant.
Just what I thought.
I was going to make that exact point, so I agree totally.
It’s because they think bikers are all Marlon Brando/Jack Nicholson - Hooligan types. 😂. They’ve probably never even met a biker in their small lives. 😁
I have been watching this with great interest. Well done on your actions questioning this. My local station has designated and free motorcycle parking.
I see this as highly suspect. They have not answered your specific questions, nor quoting the bylaws to whom they refer to..wonder why??.. Its nothing more than discrimination. It would be interesting what actions MAG are prepared to take.
Keep up the great work..
If the motorcyclists are there for the train then fine. I agree. Same applies to the cars.
Due to MAG intervention Northern Rail have now agreed bikes can park in the station car park in the spaces belonging to the Whistle Stop Cafe, once those spaces are full bikes can park in the normal spaces provided they buy a parking ticket, Northern Rail have said riders can park 2 bikes to each parking space as long as they pay for one of the bikes. This is great news.
One thing I'd like to hear of in this whole saga is that Bikers and others keep supporting the Whistle Stop Café who have had a financial rug pulled from under their feet in effectively banning many of their customers from parking near to their premises.
Yes I agree, they will suffer from the actions of a large corporation. Bikers should still support the café. Ride safe, Dave
I live in Whitby and I'm absolutely disgusted by this whole saga. The bikers bring lots of revenue to town and never cause any trouble (unlike some visitors). I visit the Whistlestop from time to time, they are lovely people who are certainly going to feel the effect of this ban. I'm going to make sure I call in for a cuppa each time I go into town to try and give them some support. I sincerely hope that this will be resolved soon.
Someone either powerful or very persistent will have complained about bike parking.
Official "Jobsworths" will rarely do anything which makes their lives more difficult unless they're forced into it.
If the motorcyclist aren’t using the railway then perhaps the railway ought to make sure passengers have space to park.
They have form for this, look to see if anyone connected to the council is "linked" to another cafe.
This same discrimination has been used against campervans in lots of car parks too.
Yeah, at one point, my mates and I all had Mazda Bongos, which were not classed as Motorhomes (because stupid rules, including 'decals' ) but that didn't stop a mate from getting a ticket for parking in car park as they tried to class his bongo as a Motorhome. He sent them a copy of the registration docs,... took some arguing, but they backed down eventually.
I can understand the campervan rule if they stay too long and space there are very few vacancies. Also, some places might have issues with dumping the liquid waste water or littering. Otherwise, if the campers are respectful and they park at the further end of the lot, I see no issues. Otherwise for long stays, a reasonable parking space rental fee is reasonable.
Park, spend the money for parking and if they attempt to charge you, take them to court to get a definitive answer to your questions.
My exact thoughts and suggestion.
Exactly what I was thinking... If enough people do this they might have second thoughts..!?
@@Bodcab68 How can one 'abuse' parking?
The UK is supposed to be a free country and has adequate space on PUBLIC roads.
If space is provided then it will be used, today all authority is at war with the public: This Must Stop.
The council and other corporations abuse us.
@Bodcab68 they they should have been ticketed, very simply. How abouts you get real. Not rocket science.
@@Bodcab68 Perhaps the question revolves around the definition of a motor vehicle, not whether it is occupying a given space. As far as I am aware, a motorbike is subject to the same road-usage regulations as a car. It must be licensed, taxed, MOT'd, registered, and on a public road operated by a licensed driver... The V5 for my CAR is identical in format to the V5 for my bike - only the words are different. As such, a motorbike is classified as a VEHICLE, as is a car, and is subject to IDENTICAL usage regulations as a car.
There is some reasonableness in limiting parking to private vehicles, and restricting access to very large vehicles (commercial trucks, for example) but a private motor VEHICLE should have access, irrespective of its format. It is the SPACE that is being rented, and if my VEHICLE can occupy that space within its defined boundary (the painted lines), then the size and format of my VEHICLE is irrelevant.
This will end up being complaints from car drivers and someone who made this decision thinking that no one would question it. That has now backfired and they don't know how to make their mistake go away. I would love to see it challenged in court.
It's cut and dry discrimination and I think that's why they don't want to get in a dialogue about it because they know that's what it is.
As a lawyer... take them on.
I had a similar problem of being stonewalled with a complaint about British Airways. I followed some advice I heard on a Radio 4 phone in. I did a quick internet trawl and found the personal e-mail address of the CEO of British Airways and contacted them directly ( sending the e-mail in the evening ). The problem was resolved with an apology by 9.30 the next day.
Thank you for taking the trouble to ask the questions, even though the answers are shite, but that is out of your control. Lets hope it will make someone have the balls to stand up and take responsibility.
As they are either unable or unwilling to identify specific by-laws relating to motorcycle parking,I would suggest that you park your motorcycle in the station car park,fines and/or penalties cannot be levied on a generalised unspecified "by-law,basically,if they cannot identify specific by-laws,you cannot be deemed to be in contravention of a "by-law" that has not been specified.
The astonishing cheek of the railway communications team doubling down on "Why? Because I say so! Your mother and I have decided and we will not be discussing this any further young man- uh! Go to your room!"
A similar thing happened at Helmsley.
Helmsley in North Yorkshire is a popular destination for bikers to meet up on a Sunday. A number of years ago they started to charge for parking, so bikes would pay for one ticket per bay and park 2-4 bikes in that bay. Their argument being that bikes were smaller than cars and obviously took up less room.
The parking officials stated that they couldnt do this and it had to be 1 ticket per bike. So the bikers that visited each got a ticket, but parked 1 bike per bay, reducing the amount for bays for cars.
Whitby is simply discriminating against bikers, which i find in this day and age quite draconian, stopping someone belonging to a certain 'group' from doing something is disgusting and possibly illegal. What next? You cant park there if you drive a Ford or if you are Chinese or male in your 20's? What possible reason can they have for discriminating in this way?
Discrimination against bikers is often unfair, but it isn't illegal on private property.
@@auditpundit1199 Any discrimination to any group whether on private or public land is wrong.
Unfortunately it has to be of a protected characteristic (I think there are 8, and your chosen mode of transport isn't one of them) before it becomes illegal.
This can be on public or private land.
@@MatthewRSimpson Many things are morally wrong, but not illegal.
@@auditpundit1199 You're quite right. Currently it would still be OK to ban gingers from parking there.
So basically, they've taken a decision to discriminate against motorcyclists, which they are unable to justify on any rational, non discriminatory grounds.
That decision looks ripe for judicial review to me!
why? It's called a car-park. Count yourself lucky that we extend the courtesy of letting you park non-cars in all of the others.
@occamraiser Lol, are you serious? 🤪
Car parks everywhere include provision for motorcycles, but they still referred to as 'car parks'. 🙄
Your 'count yourself lucky' nonsense is clearly discriminatory. Remember, we are all motorists. Our choice of mode of transport, doesn't change that. Car drivers are no better and no more important than motorcyclists.
@@occamraiserYou're a Pratt, wind up response! Logic like yours, shows, how thick you really are!
It’s ridiculous they cannot give an answer to your legitimate & specific questions. I can’t see this ban/fine being up held legally, if challenged by a motorcyclist, who pays for parking & is parked correctly. Let’s hope common sense prevails & this gets clarified quickly.
Of course it can be upheld... the car park private property and the owner can set rules for users on their land.
What a load of bikers need to do is park in the car park spaces, 1 bike per space and pay for a ticket. I suppose it is calling their bluff over whether they can uphold the claim of no bikes in court or not. As long as no bikers chance their are then you will never no if it is enforceable.
If it is not enforceable by the Railway a few days of taking every car park space up would most probably change their mind or may be not. All the best either way.
@@thebrowns5337it's government land. The rail company pays for a franchise to operate the railway, they don't own the land, the track or the rolling stock.
@thebrowns5337 yes but then again when operating a business discriminating against a group of people in this way may actually be illegal.
It is discriminating against a minority group. Also many bikers take their motorcycling as a religion, don't they!!! that is the railway company possibly being racist as well@@alzon5712
I imagine this will turn out to be a significant public relations disaster for Northern Rail with the bike prohibition rescinded very soon. You can almost hear the sound of several shovels digging a very deep hole at Railway HQ.
Thanks for making the effort on this Dave, will be interesting to see what happens in terms of response to your valid questions 🏍️👍, like most people I don’t see how they can prosecute someone when they have payed to park legally regardless of what mode of transport we are using.
Light a fire under the MP for Whitby on this one: They're required to publish the bylaws, which they appear not to have done. The MP can ask the awkward question in Parliament - for instance, PMs Questions. They have to bend over and spread 'em when there's a PMQ involved, after all.
The car park is monitored by an anpr camera that photographs a car when entering the car park.
As a motorcycle doesn't have a front plate, they can't match it to a ticket. That's why they don't want bikes.
then park it backwards?
Send your correspondence to your local MP, Sir Robert Goodwill, and ask him to take up the matter on your behalf. It's surprising how effective this is if your MP actually does something.
Lmfao
Problem here is that they outsource the enforcement to dodgy companies. If you get a ticket from them there is no way of turning back it will end in fines and bailiffs act. You cannot ring these people and is a one way traffic to a hefty fine. I parked in a local hospital where my mum was dying. On arrival you have to enter your rev no. 1 day out of 27 I failed to do this due to being distracted. Ended up with £200 fine by delaying payment. Hospital were useless just saying car park wasn’t theirs. How we put up with this crap I don’t know. The hospital inferred the company were nothing but criminals and subject of many complaints but are incommunicable. No phone numbers. I appealed they denied receiving my appeal evidenced b6 e mail. No humans to talk to. Started getting fines, bailiffs letters so at least£200 i paid. We collectively need to breach every nanny state laws. No ulez no road tax until they repair/build roads, no,parking charges, no speed cameras. They are all indirect taxes on people that hav3 vehicles registered to them. Spying everywhere
Depending on how long ago this was you can still take this to a parking tribunal and appeal and get your £200 back.
Hi. If you use the FOI (freedom of information) request. They should respond to very direct and succinct questions. If they don't respond then they can be reported and that could be implied in the request for info. Hope that helps. Bloody ridiculous as that maybe. Worth a try though. There's also probably a human rights act issue with motorcyclists being treated differently from other groups. Good luck and happy biking, SteveH.
Unfortunately I don't think motorcyclists would qualify as a protected group.
@@alexmorgan3435 It could be argued that it's a "culture". And knowing how far the HRA has been stretched in the past, nothing would surprise me.
However, its not the route that should be taken. The ban should bee seen as an unfair act by a public service provider and repealed on that basis.
I think the question still remains, will a parking fee paying motorcycle be fined for parking........
@@fabianmckenna8197 No, as the ban has now been revoked. Do keep up.
It's quite a weird world we seem to have found ourselves in when it comes to asking specific questions these days. Equally, it seems that there is no longer any regulation or even sense of duty and good manners to communicate purpose or justification on the part of large organisations. It feels like only social media remains to tackle issues, whether they be motorbike related or indeed connected to the large companies we have to deal with to live our daily lives. Of course there is the power of protest and bikers often choose that as a path to resolution. Be interesting to see what happens next as spring returns...
You say these large companies don't communicate and then you give a positive view on social media. I find it completely reversed... I don'g have social media and the odd time I find a change like this parking issue the company/authority involves always say 'we posted it on social media'. I think thats why they no longer bother with trying... theyassume everyone loves and uses social media.
@@thebrowns5337 Hello. Perhaps you misunderstood my note… I made the point that “only social media” remains as a way of bringing issues like these to large organisations’ attention these days. In other words, they have to be publicly pressured to a larger audience in order that they feel any need to address feedback. The more decisions like these are shared, the more attention they are given. It’s not about giving a positive view on social media. More a last resort when companies otherwise blatantly ignore complaints by sending generic responses without addressing the actual correspondence they receive…
the manager who thought this was a good idea will of left and got a nice middle management job for the NHS by next spring and no one else will remember why it was brought in or by whom but they will take it as a legacy issue and refuse to revoke it.
Mate, I was in MAG at the start, still have my "ride free" sticker and did the Fred Hill runs, London, Cardiff, Winson Green etc. etc. all made zero difference, just an excuse for a day out in the end as we realised that even 20,000 bikers had zero clout about nowt in the real world.
@@malverned382 Good on you for trying. It’s never too easy to change directions of powers that be. One simple way of protesting that may have more economic influence is for bikers to boycott the town until they revert back to not discriminating against bikers. When businesses see a reduction in revenue they will very likely apply more convincing pressure on decision makers.
I have sent them this Freedom of Information Request:
1. Why has Northern Rail taken the decision to ban motorcycle parking at Whitby station?
2. Which committee or officer in particular made this decision?
3. How, precisely, were the local community consulted?
4. What research was made to ascertain the economic effects on local business?
5. What effort was made to contact the motorcycling community through meeting with representative organisations to discuss this prior to the ban?
6. What projections were made of the impact of this action on the public profile of Northern Rail?
7. What appeals process has been put in place and if no appeals process has been put in place, the reason for this.
I require immediate acknowledgement of receipt of this official request.
May I remind you that you have 20 working days in which to fulfil the request by statute.
Yours sincerely
‐‐------------------
They have to answer a FOI reqymuest by law.
Let's see exactly how they answer these questions....
Well done you.👍👍
well done, but you should have added an 8th question. What by law are they using and the exact wording of the said by law.
"What consideration was made about disabled individuals who use and historically use 3 wheeled vehicles, often classed as motorcycles"
They won't of course 🏴
@@onlybugwit they have to by law and there are severe consequences if they don',t.
Well done in taking the actions you have - hopefully MAG can help bring all this together and get some response. I suspect it's a case of someone high-up doesn't like bikes or a few complaints about parking owing to bikes have caused this. Another good reason to be a MAG member!
I don't have much faith in MAG to be honest, none of these organisations are fighting this Great Reset agenda in general. All our freedoms and choices are being taken away since the whole convid thing basically.
I think it’s bylaw 14 they are trying to twist to suit themselves. The full bylaws are on the government website. I used to have copies of the rules and regulations as I worked on the railway for over forty years.only retiring a few years ago…northern has a poor performance record and should be trying to attract passengers not alienate them..good luck in your endeavours.
Well done Dave I appreciate your different approach. It’s not just the railways the whole country is run by incompetents. As you say ultimately it maybe the cafe that suffers. As an old duffer 74 I’ve never got involved with pay by phone parking, unless I’ve got “her indoors” with me who can deal with modern tech. Time to research some of the other car parks in Whitby. 😊
Well it seems to me that the problem sits in whistle stop cafés corner. Those of you with biking history of the sixties, seventies nighties will remember the milk bar now known as squires. The café was in the village and caused a serious amount of issues and brought about a plethora of complaints.
Squires decided to invest in an old public house outside the village and look at it now.
The answers the same, move the café away to a more suitable venue and watch it grow.
The current venue is not good for acces, on nice days Whitby can be shocking for congestion and, revenue created by so many gentleman who chose to spend their money in Whitby can be spent in more deserving places that appreciate the customers.
If the town of Whitby thinks they can survive without us then take a look at other seaside resorts.
Sorry about the ranting but this is being posted everywhere.
No matter what, nothings going to change it.
Very much enjoy and look forward to your videos and I'm glad to see you've been able to replace Ivey.
Cheers.
An excellent approach to this issue, using reasoned questions to get the answers. It’s odd they are unwilling to explain the rationale behind this. I’m just wondering if they are compelled to provide bike parking, for station users under their charter for accessibility for all? There a nagging doubt in my mind that this will become a landmark legal ruling that others can cite and implement bans without discussion. It’s daft that a ready source of revenue for the railway without them needing to provide any service for the money is being ignored. Still looking at their business results………
Well done bud, l look forward to further updates in regard to your questions, it sounds to me that they have gone ahead with this action without really thinking it through
they could have made some extra cash by charging a parking fee for all bikes, but noooo. Hi Mark 😁
@@icedidi Morning bud, Haha you are mixing them up with someone who has got a brain 😂
Whitby have been anti-motorcycle for several years. We used to park on the harbour bandstand area until they stopped it. There appeared to be no reason why it was stopped, other than they didn’t want motorcycles using it.
Well done Dave , good effort on all us Motorcyclists behalf, looking forward to seeing the conclusion of this prejudice act , if the railway's think this is going unanswered they're greatly mistaken.
I've been watching this situation with interest. I'm not familiar with Whitby Station but the question I have is do they have cameras that read registration numbers for parking fine situations? If so, is the problem that they read only front plates and therefore can't monitor bikes?
To ban bikes that have paid parking charges is discrimatory which, given the current attitude that we cannot discriminate against any minority, leads me to believe that this is, in fact, illegal.
I suspect you may be correct about the enforcement cameras only checking front number plates. Something to investigate.
@@roykirby5494 But in most car parks motorcycles don't have to pay.
@@alexmorgan3435 that's true however that is changing very quickly with the increase in payment apps and ticket machines where you put in your reg. number. We need to resign ourselves to paying for parking, particularly in busy car parks. You don't need to display a ticket any more and therefore the reason motorbikes didn't have to pay no longer exists in many places
they cannot give an answer because their is no bye law.
Quite possibly. Maybe get a copy of the bye laws? I am sure they would be similar if not he same as other stations in the area.
Thanks for the update 👍🏻. They must be very anti motorcycle having brought in this rule.
The UK as a whole is very pro car. Usually at the expense of other transport methods and indeed consideration of others. Mention building a new cycle lane, at a fraction of the cost of road repairs, and watch people kick off with insults.
I have travelled from Whitby station. I ride a motorcycle and I am disabled and have a blue badge. What would they try do to me if I parked there in a disabled bay? Would they be illegally discriminating against the disabled if they tried to ticket me?
Hi, that's a very good question
Unfortunately I don't think they would give an answer if you asked them.
Ride safe, Dave
You won't get an answer from them on that one, but might I suggest that with signs up stating 'no motorcycles', you might find it hard to argue that they are giving you a ticket for any other reason.
Genuinely curious, do you have a blue badge for the bike, that you can display when in a disabled bay, without fear of it getting stolen?
But to answer the question - it's a private car park - they can set whatever terms they wish, and they are not stopping you parking your car in the car park, only the bike. So there would be no grounds that they are discriminating you based on disability.
Trikers of the world - unite!
@@redtelaNorthern Rail is a publicly owned company, rather than a private business.
As a lifelong biker, and also someone who's family comes from Whitby, and as someone who comes up once a year for a 2 week holiday and bayfest and trips on the NYMR, I would say a lot of commentators on here need to search "Whitby bike NIght" on here just to see how busy it gets. On a busy one the car spaces and everywhere else around is rammed with bikes, including the pavements all around.
I expect locals or someone with clout, or retired types with time on their hands will have complained, this lobby demographic is similar as per other meeting places and similar events / ride ins around the UK where local folks kick up.
The actual fact is though, despite several comments on here about non riders and tourists "liking the bikes", the vast majority of the public in general in the UK don't, I have actually heard adverse comments as a "civilian" in the years past I have attended, where because I am dressed like a tourist folks will feel a bit more open about what they actually think, or not interrupt their bitching while eating chips over the way as they would if I sat near with bike gear on.
Not seen any really crazy stuff in the last 7 years I have been coming up, but just what we riders accept as normal, ie. some folks giving it a few revs and blipping as arriving and leaving, and the like....This is seen as childish and anti social by many, and I guarantee anyone who has attended Whitby cannot hand on heart say that although most attendees are fine, the odd events as above do happen.
Only takes one person walking / with kids to made to jump, and that's another enemy to our sport.
Same thing happened neared me up in Bewdley, a few half wits ruined it for everyone, It would be interesting to find out who started this ball rolling, and their own personal interactions with 2 wheels in the past.
Also a lesson in observation, as a rider I love to wander round chatting and looking at the stuff at ride ins, but in Whitby in the past as (on appearance) just another a tourist sat over by the Orlop eating chips and watching the comings and goings and folks doing laps over the bridge and back, and the reaction of more than a few tourists to loud bikes passing, you realise this has been coming for some time I would say, maybe a victim of it's own success....
Being bloody minded, I'd take the bike, park it in a bay and pay by phone - then fight the bastards if they try to fine me. Their likelihood of winning in a court is unlikely, due to its unreasonableness - especially since you have paid for parking.
Thank you for following this up. Shocking discrimination; surely MAG can mount some legal challenge here?
I watched with great interest your video and read the comments...
I used to live in Yorkshire for a year and a half many MANY moons ago but I'm not familiar with Whitby Railway station (bloody foreigner here🙃)
So, I opened good old Google Maps and got me some general understanding of the area.
Besides satellite view there are also numerous "street level" stills...
Not being there certainly does not show the reality on the ground.
My very subjective conclusions based on that one satellite picture of the parking lot and dozen of street level photos are:
- the parking area directly in the front of Witby station is limited - as far as I've noticed there are some 60-65 parking bays
- on Google maps (outdated!) satellite image there are clearly visible some 15 bikes parked neatly one next to another occupying 4-5 parking bays close to the entrance to the building and Whistle Stop Café
- There is also much bigger parking across the street, some 200ft/100m from the Train Station, closer to the wharf, with some guesstimated 320+ parking bays.
I don't know what are the conditions of use and if the prices are the same as at parking space closer to the train.
Generally I understand the possible problem seeing dozens of bikes parked. I am a biker myself and I see in my country all the time non responsible bikers parking wherever and however they please.
Honestly I am totally surprised that officials reacted at all to the "bike situation" and went for a ban, which leads me to conclusion that problem was big enough to warrant their reaction!
We all know how slow and unresponsive the bureaucracy is, and how they never want to be disturbed in their slumber, but still proceeded with the decision!?
Then I took the liberty to look up the train timetable for Whitby, only to discover that there are 2 destinations with 5 services to and from Hexham and Middlesbrough with total of 10 trains DAILY (Mon-Fri) roughly every 2 hours.
Material online suggests that Whitby station has 0.130 million passengers a year, in normal numbers 130.000, so daily mon-fri it gives around 520 passengers, 50-odd souls per train, although its more likely that commuter trains in the morning and in the evening are more crowded...
This could mean that commuters leaving cars on the train station parking during the day, have just about number of bays needed. But from the other side, still images in all cases show half empty parking lot...
Difficult to assess from a distance.
But all in all seems to me that Whitby station is not a busy hub bursting with thousands of passengers every hour all falling over improperly parked hundreds of bikes.
Obviously that ONE complaint fell on fertile soil, some 'pencil...' errr 'mouse-pusher ' simply decided to earn some extra Brownie points and an additional smily on the monthly report
Generally, You are right, though, as the hastily implemented simplest solution of the officials "banning" bikers is flawed.
The issue obviously must be resolved by dedicating specific parking area for bikers.
But this will take much more effort and time, as you have to fight stubbornness and stupidity of officials. Do we expect those same officials that were just recently awoken from slumber to deal with "a situation" and to have to reverse it or even - blasphemy - to solve it properly?
Just recall all the clever decisions and ingenious rules created at the time of Corona Story all over the World all of them created by some zealot trying to prove its existence
Their answers to any enquiry are purposely disconnected from questions and from reality.
Knowing how they are keen and passionate in imposing fines in my country, and knowing how slow, inefficient and silly is the system, I would do my best to not give them the satisfaction of dragging me to court, which would include me losing full day of work, travel back and forth to the nearest regional court some 400km away, stress induced and money thrown away for being Don Quixote, all of this only to prove them wrong... or not?
Saying "it's better to be smart than right" applies here
Me, personally, would most likely park across the street next to the wharf and curse them on my way to the café/train station
But that's me...
The Motorcycle ban is unlikely to stand up if tested in court.
I shall continue to park my motorbike in the station car park and pay by app. I therefore have audit trail proof of correct payment and therefore i am complying with the parking regulations and bye-laws. If fined I will simply not pay and eventually argue my case if necessary in court. I am confident that judgement would be in my favour.
Northern Rail can of course change their bye laws, but that will take time and may in itself be subject to legal challenge.
Agree. Legally unenforceable.
Give it a go. I would like to know exactly what they could take you to court for if you’ve paid for parking on arrival! Good luck.
I was about to say the same thing. Also, how about early one morning enough motorcyclists turn up at the station car park, fill all the available parking bays, each pay the correct car fee using the app and see what happens! The court system would collapse if they tried to prosecute everyone.
Is this referring to the carpark immediately next to the station or does it include the larger Langborne Road and Marina Back car parks to the south??
We regularly took breaks in the east of Yorkshire, off season. Greed and overcharging has killed this for us. A week in the Med. is cheaper than a long weekend in Yorkshire!
The Whistle-stop has/had two parking bay for motorcycles have these be removed from the cafe, and returned to the station?
What a crock of dodging. Keep pushing mate.
The Thursday night "Bike Meet" attracts tourists or haven't they realised this? It's well known throughout the UK by bikers that there is a Whitby meet every Thursday! I'm in Scotland and my biker pals know about it and try to visit when they can, not always on their bikes but often by car.
Pay for a parking space - whether or not you use a car or motorcycle should be irrelevant.
This also assumes that everyone using this parking has access to a Smart phone to which you can download the app.
No consideration given for those without Smart phone.
Very poor customer service.
Sad times 🤔🤔
Thank you for taking this a stage further by framing your questions in a way which will certainly have put them on the spot. The responses are predictably non committal if not thoroughly uncooperative. Such a lack of willingness to engage with inquiries like yours is usually an indication of an organisation struggling to justify what appears to have been a knee jerk reaction without having given thought to a process of 3 way negotiation between the rail company, the cafe and the bikers. This would have been a much more reasonable and understandable approach. I agree that bikers should pay to park there which would address the revenue side of the argument. As for the "nuisance" side of things (bikes parked inappropriately) surely this should form part of the normal parking enforcement process as employed with cars parked in breach of the regulations. Thanks again.
I suspect that they are referring to the following two bylaws in the section relating to "Control of Premises":
13. Unauthorised access and loitering
No person shall:
1. enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice: 1. prohibiting access or 2. indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category 2. loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person
14. Traffic signs, causing obstructions and parking
1. no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall use it on any part of the railway in contravention of any traffic sign 2. no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway: 1. in any manner or place where it may cause an obstruction or hindrance to an operator or any person using the railway or 2. otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an operator or an authorised person 3. no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall park it on any part of the railway where charges are made for parking by an operator or an authorised person without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by an operator or an authorised person at that place 4. in England and Wales 1. the owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area 2. without prejudice to Byelaw 14(4)(i), any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be clamped, removed, and stored, by or under the direction of an operator or authorised person 3. the owner of the motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall be liable to an operator or an authorised person for the costs incurred in clamping, removing and storing it provided that there is in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these byelaws may be clamped, removed and stored by an operator or an authorised person and that the costs incurred by an operator or an authorised person for this may be recovered from the vehicle’s owner 4. the power of clamping and removal provided in Byelaw 14(4)(ii) above shall not be exercisable in any area where passenger parking is permitted unless there is on display in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these byelaws may be clamped and/or removed by an operator or an authorised person 5. in Scotland
Any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of this byelaw in Scotland may be removed by or under the direction of a constable
They have signs that say no motocycles and another that says they are permitted in the designated area which they have removed.
I remember when we used to ride into Whitby. Parked at the station. Didn’t go near a train.
Back in the 90s Westminster council closed all the free motorcycle parking bays and introduced bike parking meters. Everyone stopped using them and started parking behind the brass strip on the pavements. The brass strip marks the boarder between private property and the public pavements. You cannot be given a parking ticket on private property so unless the various companies decided to put up signs and start locking and towing away motorcycles parked on their property you are OK to park. If you know Westminster you will know that a lot of the pavements are quite narrow and if it was not for the areas behind the brass strips people would end up walking in the road and guess what. Yes as the coach loads of tourists turned up and disembarked swarms of them ended up in the road. Within a year all the bike parking meters were removed and free bay were back. I wonder if anyone was sacked I very much doubt it.
Credit due to you for taking the time and trouble to try to get some definitive answers. From the last two replies you have received regarding your very credible question’s they have done a very good job of avoiding a positive response. Obviously there is no British Rail “Bye Law” as they have not stated the Ref number for the Bye-Law. An d on parking spaces which you stated you understand that you are happy to pay for to that question was also avoided. It all smells of someone in a powerful position dose not like Motorcyclists!! And doesn’t want to see motorcyclists in Whitby.
Thank you for all your great efforts in trying to get some proper answers
How hard is it to mark out some motorcycle parking bays? Rules, upon rules, upon regulations.
I've always parked the bike
in the carpark near the tourist information center (marina/Langbourne Rd) or The Fleece. There's a few free M/C spaces in both with railings you can lock up to.
Charging bikes the same as cars is why I now rarely visit Helmsley
@thatblokeonamotorbike Thanks for the heads-up. Any updates on this?
Send this to your MP as well.
So it's just a case of " computer says no" by the sound of it.
Discrimination on 2 levels
1) Discriminating between cars and motorcycles - how do they know the car drivers are using the train, and therefore those not using the train are allowed to continue parking their cars there
2) Discriminating against motorcyclists who use the trains
I understand their conundrum, but they could surely register number plates at time of purchasing train tickets, would resolve issue. I'd buy a motorcycle & Sidecar, wonder where they'd go with that!
Alternatively, park motorcycle, pay, buy train ticket & await the fine? Send them copy of payments for both parking and use of train and accuse them of blatent discrimination and a court case / lots media coverage.
Follow the money, likely being earmarked for EV chargers so can't be seen to allow "far right" polluting bikers use the spaces, when authorities start discrimination it's always to do with money and corporate criminals.
The chances are that the car park owner is not the Operator. The Terms and Conditions signs at Whitby Station car park almost certainly include words to the effect that the sign states the full terms and conditions for parking - and it almost certainly uses "vehicles" throughout the text. If I am right - and you pay the parking charge - then you will have fulfilled the Terms and Conditions in full, regardless of the type of vehicle.
Look for:
"... parking Terms and Conditions apply which are set out in this notice (the "Parking Contract")"
and:
"The Parking Contract shall form the entire agreement between the parties and any variation of the terms shall not be valid unless confirmed in writing by [the Car Park Operator]."
There's no tort if you fulfil the terms and conditions on that notice because they give you a parking permit. A charged public car park conveys an implicit Invitation to Treat which is confirmed by the tariff signs.
There's no trespass if parking is permitted - although if the owner asks you to leave before you've paid you will have to politely show them the sign. If they still insist, you'll have to leave to avoid committing Aggravated Trespass - but not if you've already paid. Ignoring a sign which prohibits public access to railway premises (building sites or government property) is also Aggravated Trespass (which is their byelaw thing in their letter), but if public access is allowed... it is allowed until a Court is satisfied that you have committed a criminal offence - but Courts will prefer to consider a thing as a tort rather than as a crime.
If you get a ticket for parking a motorcycle, appeal to the Operator. If that is rejected, appeal to PoPLA. The latter is an approved independent Alternate Dispute Tesolution provider, and can only consider compliance with the contract, so you'll win at appeal without costs.
Interesting case, though:
Send this one to The Black Belt Barrister on UA-cam for comment.
Here is a thought at 6:27 they say 'the decision to implement a ban on motorcycles follows feedback into car parking at Whitby station'. What was this feedback and can we see it. Also it would be interesting to see if car parking for ICE car was objected to on environmental grounds. More power to your elbow - subbed.
The text of the new sign uses the phrase "Unauthorised parking will result in a penalty...". However, noting that while it also starts with the phrase "No motorcycle parking", is it not reasonable to make the case that the purchase of a parking ticket 'authorises' the parking of any (reasonable) vehicle in the car park? This would - to my mind at least - demonstrate some ambiguity in the restriction notice, that could be tested in court for the princely sum of 50-quid.
Any lawyers out there that can voice an opinion on these bylaws? If there aren't any, then the parking fine is not enforceable and signs can ignored.
Someone needs to get black belt barrister on this
Just looked up the location on google maps, and I'm wondering, does that ban include the two bays that the cafe have marked for motor cycle parking only?
I used to work for the railway. I used my bike for on call. So how would Northern Rail respond to me turning up to help with an incident on the bike? At the time, Network Rail saw this as a benefit, not a problem.
My local car park has removed 1 motorcycle bay,we have been told to park in a normal bay and pay.
Haven't been to Whitby for a long time, even in a car. I have found a lot of ABE's there (anti biker establishments) several of the fish and chip shops td us they were closing and then let other people in, the florist at the railway station tried to get my friend arrested for sitting eating an ice cream several years ago. We were not causing any trouble, we were just having a day out enjoying riding the moors and going into Whitby for a bite to eat.
Does this apply just for the railway station car park? Are the other car parks on Langborne Road available to park? One of them has a square bay marked M/C it’s only small though
You could use a response to a local council. We all booked/paid for a parking space. We then all turned up on bikes and parked one bike, one space.
3/4 was full as against the orginal bike bay. The council reinstated the m/bike bay
Being a rail worker, and this issue has been dicussed in Norwich messroom! "You know you cant park your bike at Whitby anymore?" The general language is "we have have a rule we cant enforce" Some Tory MP must of complained! Railway men ride bikes too!
Sadly, authorities will cowardly hide behind a wall of ignorance as this has always worked in the past. Westminster seems to be a prime example for certain groups.
Can’t honestly see anything done in towards progress in this matter because it’s not the way they are even halfway capable of thinking.
No rime/reason for this despicable behaviour of Northern Railway; about to name/shame people behibd this scene. Next tim e I would advice to correspond only to either your local MP or to the highest manager/CEO for that matter. Unfortunately these days there is no 'knowledge' at any level in these organisations, they are a waste in space and your time. Buy a parking ticket on your bike registration and sue them through the Small Claims Court or creat crowd funding to create costs toward Northern R they can't ignore. Sueing is the best way to get CEOs down! Great upload thanks.
For commuters it could be easily sorted by having a specific bike parking area. I expect somewhere like Whitby would need space for about 4 bikes. In the right location, no more than 2 car spaces.
From what I've seen elsewhere it's a little used station, mostly used by tourists. If bikers are meeting in the evenings during the week, what time do the trains run until? Surely there can be no issue with bikes using it as a point of road safety and convenience.
I just had a look at the area on google maps and looks like the cafe is actually part of the station building. Is there one disgruntled person complaining there's nowhere to park and that there's one bike using a whole space, which is down to car park management, rather than a moan about bikes.
Not being able to supply the specific by laws and the wording. I can smell a big stinking rat.
Meeting at a cafe should also be lauded by the police as bikers aren't meeting at a pub
My first question would be if it was legal and if it was a type of prejudice against motorcyclists 🤔
A rubbish new world. As an ex customer services manager I am appalled at this approach by companies to basically ignore any inconvenient dialogue. It is the same stance that politicians use and of course with the advancing use of Ai, there is literally no turning back. I wonder who is making all the money training these clowns to stop using their brains? As a biker, it is bad enough that facilities aren’t being provided enough for an expanding activity. Take a look at Boscastle CP!! Stay safe everyone and find your own coping mechanism. I’m desperately seeking 🤔😢
This is an example of a video which has blindsided me because I've suddenly discovered an aspect of the world I never even considered was an issue. I've parked in many car parks using my motorcycle. Where there isn't specific motorcycle parking, I've just parked in a normal bay. I've never considered this could be an issue, because yeah what else are you supposed to do and why would that be an issue? Fortunately I've never had an issue.
I am person, not a motorcycle or a car. It doesn't matter if I take my motorcycle or my car, I'm going to be occupying a space on the car park. To say motorcycle users are using a space preventing a car using it, is bizarre and obtuse, my choice of vehicle is not relevant, I'm a user occupying a space, why does it matter if I use a bike or a car to occupy that space? Why as a person using a motorcycle am I considered less valid than a person using a car? Should I fit a big metal ring around my bike making it the same size as a car? Does that make me a valid car park user then?
I'm the same person occupying a space for the same reason. If you prevent me going on my bike, I'll just go in the car instead, nothing is gained, I'm still occupying a space. Except not everybody has that option. And in more forward thinking places if they realise there are a lot of motorcycle users they can create parking for motorcycles in places that wouldn't fit a car, or put multiple motorcycles in a space that would only occupy a single car, which creates more spaces for cars.
A very bizarre logic that they refuse to explain. I'd continue to park there as normal, park in a normal space, pay as normal, so they be forced to explain their logic through the legal channels if they want to create an issue out of me using the car park and paying same as anybody else.
The ban didn't last
Those letters of yours are excellent. They’re to the point, specific, and not in the least hostile (a million miles from so much I see, especially online). Whoever made the decision to ban bikes did not think it through, and I suspect their reluctance to reveal the relevant byelaw is because it’ll show they’ve acted unlawfully. I don’t dispute that it was nice to be able to park for free outside the cafe, but many times I’ve been and it’s been too busy so I’ve paid for a parking space (though often there’s no car spaces available). There’s obviously been a big pushback on this and I’ll bet they’re all desperately pointing fingers round a table to allocate blame, whilst trying to decide what to do. My guess is they’ll relent and start providing a dedicated bike area where charges apply.
I wonder what would happen if you a sidecar attached? Preferably with a disabled sticker.
As an ex biker who unfortunately can no longer ride due to severe osteoarthritis in both knees, I can slightly understand the railway company if they are getting a lot of bikers filling the carpark and not leaving anywhere for people using the trains. I;m puzzled as to why do bikers going to Whistlestop use the station carpark anyway , as there is a mahoosive carpark behind it.
I would suggest three things. 1. Get everyone you know, and every motorcyclist within reach of Whitby, to write a formal complaint to Norther Railways. 2. Raise a complaint against Northern with Railways Ombudsman. 3. Use you new MP Alison Hume - write to her setting out the issue and the lack of response to legitimate questions especially in regard to the bylaws they refuse to itemise.
Put pressure on them from all sides, and see how long until they cave.
Use the carpark, pay the tariff, if you get a fine, refuse to pay so it goes to court - they'll have to cite the bylaw to win. There's obviously no bylaw to the fine will be dropped.
Gov website railway byelaws 14.2 looks like they can do what they like ?
Responses are just examples of incompetent management. Unwilling to explain the rational of why they cannot do a good job. The registration system overcomes all the points about identifying whether the vehicle has paid or not.
Your questions were good and polite, to the point and concise. Good luck with ever getting a sensible result. A good company would sack people who write such rubbish.
The car park in Belmont Bolton I saw banning motorcycle, actually says off road bike not allowed on car park not Road legal
Make an official complaint, there will be a process they have to follow, it will be delt with by their complaints team. If someone makes a complaint it has to be delt with officially. You have asked for information and been fobbed off. They can't do this if you make an official complaint as it is part of their Franchise agreement.
The car park down the road from where I live is ‘free parking for motorcycles.’ This includes marked bays.
I park in a corner, next to a wall and telegraph pole, in a space you might just manage to park 1/4 of an original mini. I am not in anyone’s way, or preventing any cars from parking.
As a result no one minds. If they made me pay, it still would not be a problem, as the first hour is free. I get home when the parking becomes free in half an hour, and leave for work before I have to pay., so I would still park for free. I would just have to get a 1 hour free ticket, and park in a bay. Preventing a car from parking.
I've seen a car parked across two spaces , so we should ban all cars form using that car park , RIGHT ?
Saying some biker do the wrong thing so ban all of them is just plan discrimination .
does this apply to tricycles. reliant , morgan, or to ones with handlebars.?
Ban the motorcycle because he uses a car parking spot, so now he has to leave the bike at home and drive the car. So, the car spot is still used. What have they gained?
Potentially 4 passengers = more revenew
Is their statement about bikes being on the pavements etc valid?
Yes.
I don't know about UK but in canada a Bylaw must display the Bylaw number ( so you can look it up ) and must be expalained on request. If there is no Bylaw number on the sign then it is not an official Bylaw and cannot be enforced.
I parked my bike in a Coventry multi story car park only to be told I'd get a penalty ticket even though I'd paid the parking fee because Motorcycles are not allowed to park in that particular car park! WTF? I won't be going to Coventry again!!!
Are there not council car parks in whitby's?.
Only way you will get it changed back is if you go after the council, Protest out side building, block them in at home time, like the Stop Oil protests then someone will take notice.
If SABA run that car park then they should provide you with a copy of the bylaws related to the car park they manage. I do not see any rules in their notices about motorbikes being banned from parking and the station does not appear to display any signs to that effect either.
If this is their new rule then their bylaws document needs updating because right now there is nothing in it to indicate that motorcycles are banned from Whitby station or any other station for that matter.
Mate as a Moter Cyclist I feel for your problem but the fact is i live in Australia and the only reason i'm commenting is i really enjoyed the ride through the English countryside it's been awhile since i was there hoping you post more thank you
well written! In Germany and Austria there are more and more bans for motocycles, and we need as a community to fight those. This is however a confortation not only with the authorities, but also towards our fellow motocyclists who are at the root of the reasons e.g. unneccerssary loud exhausts, etc.
It would be interesting to know if someone on a motorcycle is also barred from stopping and using the toilets?
Was it you who did the "what constitutes a motorbike person" video? Sounded like you. Might be an ex copper. Said about the sound and run to window to look and recognise types of engine by sound??
I am not a biker i drive a car but i am disgusted at this decision by Network rail/Northern Railways to ban Bikers from the car park, i have been using the whistle stop whenever i am in whitby and you couldn't meet a nicer bunch of guys, they are part of whitby's History and i loved to see all the Bikers arriving on thursdays when they all meet up, Network rail/Northern Railways need to think again this is a very bad decision and i for one fully support the bikers to keep using the car park.
Send them a freedon of information request asking for the specific bylaw used.
I'm not sure why they could not come out with the fact that it will be under Railway byelaws 14. Traffic signs, causing obstructions and parking
Had the same problem with motorbike parking in Canterbury , when the motorbike places where full , so parked in a car parking space , attendant told me to move , but unknown to him I had a piece of paper in my pocket with information from the car park owners , that if the motorcycle places where full we where entitled to use car parking spaces , he then said I had to pay for car parking space . With which I told him the letter said nothing about having to pay , and that if I did , the next car driver passing would walk by , pinch the ticket and put it in his car . I therefore asked as I didn’t require a ticket for the motorbike he was wrong . He never bothered again bone checked the rules . He struck me as a bit of a jobs worth , who initially didn’t know the rules 😊👍😡😂😂
If they allow you to buy a parking ticket, I would say that's a contract regardless of the type of vehicle? I also wonder how they plan to monitor this? Supermarkets do a pretty shambolic job of enforcing disabled parking and they use a national company to handle this for them.