I would love to hear about your experiences. If you left a faith, or someone you love left your faith, did you maintain a relationship? What is that relationship like?
I am 78 years old from a secular Jewish family raised in the Southern USA. I find your work very interesting but can not relate to anti-Zionism. In Israel I a saw the destructive influence of an anti-Zionist group that for the most part lives off the benefits of Israel with almost no contribution. Where would they go if Israel falls. Use a lot of human services $, do not enter the military, and basically cause harm. Israel needs support for its national existence.
@@Robertoamapasuno I hear you very much but I think there are different forms of anti-zionism. Some are more antagonistic and divisive than others. I think Naturei Karte is universally despised because they are so terribly divisive. Satmar is no friend of such antizionists.
@@Robertoamapasuno I lived in Baton Rouge Louisiana for a couple years and a very good friend told me about the history of the Liberal Synagogue which broke away from Temple B’nai Israel over Zionism. The rabbi at Temple B’nai Israel would not allow any fund raising for the Zionist movement in Palestine. The rabbi at B'nai Israel was a member of American Council for Judaism, which opposed the creation of a Jewish state. Anti-Zionism was very common among Reform rabbis in the South before the creation of the State of Israel which people have forgotten.
@@Robertoamapasuno I think you may be mistaken about them taking money from the government. There are may fundraisers who come to America to raise funds to support the people in these communities because the refuse to take money from the government.
I left Islam and converted to Christianity which can be a very dangerous thing. Still to this day I can’t be completely open about it to the outside world (as is requested by my family for my own safety). But my close family members are very accepting and respectful of it, thank God! It even deepened our relationships because I am a lot happier now.
My grandmother's family sat Shiva for her when she married an Italian man from a Catholic family. This would have been sometime between 1945-1948 in Chicago. My grandmother's family was not Hasidic. Just wanted to share this personal example. Thank you for your work Freida! Love your thoughtful, fascinating, and respectful content. This is another great interview!
I want to say I love what you share! I am African American and I grew up in New Jersey there are some very large Hasadic communites. Your videos have taught me so much. It also helped me understand the community I came in contact in while I was visiting israel. I am formerly Mormon (LDS) and exiting that community as an adult was a journey. Keep posting your content I am a supporter! Thank you so much!
@tamararutland-mills9530 I'm a secular Jew My cousins are orthodox I call them cult followers Women are treated like 2nd class citizens Whether Jewish, Christian or Muslims What they all have e in common is using fear mongering and they are all obsessed with rituals Nothing make sense It's very sad
I found your channel about three weeks ago and find it extremely interesting and helpful. Your voice is very comforting. You ask all the important questions and provide answers to even the most basic questions. The people you interview are highly knowledgeable. I’m learning a great deal. Thank you.
I am a Jew who was not raised to be very religious. Even though previous generations of my family were orthodox. When my grandparents came to Australia from Hungary they became less religious. Chabad Lubavitch in Australia has been wonderful to me, and have been very welcoming and non judgemental. So I now observe more.
The chabad community can be very loving, especially to secular Jews. Perhaps it's because they're secular or perhaps it's because our best go on shlichus.
Beautiful video. I see the fact of bringing their own food and table cloth, and a sign of love: they follow their beliefs, but their son is so important to them, that they bring everything over to spend that time with him
I was raised a devout Christian. I left the church but still have my faith. My church and my very religious parents did not accept gays and each of my sisters has a gay child (adults) whom I love very much and accept. I could no longer attend the church as I do not agree with their views on gays but I never lost my faith and my relationship with God. I really enjoy your interviews Frieda. ❤❤❤
I'm only 17 minutes in and I already have so many things to say!!! What a wonderful and poignant interview!!! I'm mentioned in several previous comments how I grew up in a strict orthodox Mormon household, and leaving was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. The guilt, the certainty that I was going to Hell with a one-way ticket, the loss of friends, losing my sense of belonging to a community, and losing the support that community provided. I think the experience can be equally traumatic for the family and in much the same ways. Their fear for your spiritual wellbeing, your soul, worry about your loss of friendships and community, worry for your loss of the support structures your accustomed to. These are real pains for the family too, and should not be left out of the conversation. But as we progress into discussing what we inherit and take with us from these religions cultures, that's something I am becoming more and more aware of in my own daily experience of life. And I left the Church over 20 years ago. But certain ideas, values, habits, etc not only continue to be a part of my life, they literally shape the fabric of my personality and how I relate to the world around me. Friends who have know me throughout my adult life continue to point out certain traits in me as stemming from the Mormon in my genes. And it's because of them that I have been able to become more self aware.
22:44 I still have panic attacks when I find myself in certain social situations which contradict the values I was raised with. Not all, but some. It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't necessarily have to. Sometimes it will be so bad that I have to leave the situation and other times I can sort of observe the anxiety in myself and be completely aware of it, but I can't make it go away. I just have to work through it.
1:16:33 In my experience, those who leave the Mormon community often do so because they've "sinned" and since they then believe they're going to Hell anyway, they might as well go for it, and so they'll explore sex, drugs, or other behaviors to an extreme. Not because they're finally free, or because partying is part of their social life, but as both a way of acting out against the feelings of being Damned almost a rebellious act of defiance, and self-inflicted punishment where one no longer feels worthy of better and so they subject themselves to drugs, sex, etc., not to explore but as a form of self loathing which compiles.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I've seen this in both scenarios, and I agree. It's very sad indeed. But I've also seen people heal from it, learn to forgive themselves and discover meaning in some extraordinarily beautiful ways.
Just ordered his book. I was also married to a Shneur Zalman (also from CH) and as a BT, my experience was that when I divorced, I was to some extent un-personed, and when my kids went OTD, I became fully non-existent, even though I'm as frum as ever and it was not at all the Rebbe's way to write people off like that. I don't have a quarrel with Hashem, but I definitely have issues with "Frum Incorporated," which I feel has taken over Yiddishkeit.
@Dana Goldstein Do you live in Crown Heights? Would the experience be different if you attended a Chabad House with many Jews whose only Jewish observance is attending a Chabad event on occasion?
@@stephenfisher3721 They might be more open loving and accepting than, say, Satmar and Belz. It may also be they are that way to strangers and new returnees more so than their full fledged members
I enjoyed this conversation! The memoirs and fiction I read, on any subject, that navigate the nuanced realities of human experience and show a person coming to peace without the "bad to good" dichotomy Zalman talks about are more satisfying to me than the super dramatic ones, no matter their "shock" value. "We need to tell better stories" indeed, across the board.
This interview brought back so many memories for me. My parents were divorced when I was 5 ( in 1959) and my mother left her Orthodox background. She was given custody of my brother and me after several years. She remarried (to a Jewish man) and by the time I was 9, they converted to Roman Catholicism and sent us to Catholic school. I don't know which was more traumatic, losing my father and my extended family or changing religious communities from Jewish to Catholic seemingly overnight. To this day, I still consider myself Jewish.
Wow! Thank you so much Frieda for this amazing video. The humble and authentic revelations from both you and Professor Newfield was touching and I related to alot of it. I was brought up in the Catholic faith but have left it behind many years ago. My reasons are many and varied but suffice to say I am much happier. I have peace of mind and my soul is calm. I am in touch with my family and we have reached a compromise. They still see me as catholic and pray that one day I will return to the fold but I know I won't. Looking forward to more of your videos.
I find you such a loving, forgiving, non judgement scholar and greatly appreciate your insight into your exit to a less orthodox life. I like how you kept what is dear to you.
Hi frieda fantastic video as usual, I just want to say my son went on the tour to Poland organised by the belzaer rebbe and its true there was no hidden agenda at all my son was made to feel loved even though he has left the hasdic life it was a positive experience for him not to change him but to show they except his new way of life with no judgement
Dear Frida, I love your podcast I love your videos very much the thing that I wanted to mention was, it’s not only religious people that perpetrate a separation from a child grown child who is different and who have shut down all communication causing great pain. My situation, which I would like to mention to you happened when I was not a child I was 37 years old. I had a very responsible job and the supervisor of many people, who were my tech people I had also great respect in my job. My situation was that I fell in love with a man who was separated from his wife of 25 years. This was not a trivial separation, but one of long, long suffering. The man I fell in love with thought that I was his wonderful thing that ever happened to him, but the thing is I wanted to live on my own. My parents were first generation Italian and you didn’t leave home until you got married. When I decided that I was old enough to make my own decision, and although sorrowful to have a separation, I was told to turn over my house keys and get everything out of the house that I wanted to take that weekend. They were no phone calls to be made and no acknowledgment of me on the street if they happen to see me. This of course caused me great pain and suffering. The separation lasted for 20 years until my mother was dying and asked for me. So got in the car and we drove two hours to be by her bedside and she said that her mother who is long dead told her that she should contact me. Of course she did. my grandmother was the most wonderful, understanding woman, now my husband came with me of course and my mother met him for the first time and it was all smiles and happiness and I remember my father saying over the 20 years old about then. Of course, this was my mother doing but I was going to go to see her if she asked for me, I would never refuse a dying wish. After my mother passed, I got to know my father for the first time my mother, of course was the most dominant parent and dad just worked and kept everything going. We had a wonderful relationship for the eight years that he had left to life and I don’t think I would’ve ever gotten to know my father in such a close way. I am so glad that I had the love and support of my husband for 38 years before he passed. I’m so glad I did accept the separation and moved on with my life.😮
Zelde it was such an HONOR to meet you today. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for making my day, your kindness, your generosity, your wonderful neshama! I will be in touch privately. I wish we could have had coffee afterwards but I was in a rush to get home.
Thank you both, a truly enlightening discussion. I am grateful for the sharing and to have the opportunity to hear the discussion. Frieda, thank you for sharing that you do not like to discuss your story because of the secular revision, it provided me another perspective that is honest and refreshing. Thank you for all you do! I feel I am learning and I appreciate it.
😊Thank you, Frieda, for the very interesting interviw with tge brilliant Zalman Newfiel. Shalom to you, your beloved Family and wonderful Friends🦋🦋 Violet 🌳🦚🌲🎄🌳🌳🌳
I ❤ my Chabad community. I was just invited to Gimmel Tammuz dinner to honor the inspiration and vision of the Rebbe. I don’t feel the need to keep a lot of the multitude of traditions, but the sense of community is really amazing. I just grew to love the people, but in all honesty: I don’t think I could ever be orthodox.
Great conversation and as a product of a mixed marriage who grew up with zero community or training in either of my parents’ religions, I am “coming back” to my Judaism later in life, although I never consciously left! The Belzer Rebbe piece strongly reminded me of some evangelical christians who hold classes in “straight” living for gays struggling with their LGBTQ+ identities. Incidentally I have known people who met their same sex partners in those classes! Essentially the role of organized religion is to bring people in and keep them in, so even if it is only in their subconscious, and not the “official agenda”, the Belzer Rebbe wants to bring the people back! After all, there is a place for a warm welcome home for any voyager who decides to return.
I just started watching! Thank you. One thing that I would like to say I think people ask about how individuals who leave are asking from a place of fear. They are deep down terrified of losing the familial connection and thus want to understand if it happens and then how it affects those that are experiencing it.
You have really helped me with your videos and courage. I left the Hebrew Roots Movement 7 years ago and still struggle with the lost if my religion. Thanks the rabbis who taught me about Judaism I have had “shade” under which to rest, think and forgive myself for I see as a giant embarrassment. I have so much more to say about this but I’d rather thank you. One if the warmest videos I’ve seen if yours is the one with Sara Braun on being a black Hasidic woman. You both were lovely ❤️🤗.
I appreciate zalman's broad mindedness and honesty. I LOVE the satmar couple who so succinctly explain their dilemma (" you want us to tell the judge we worry about his eternal soul?"). As for the belzers who help OTD people without (or with) ulterior motives. As a lubavitcher, zalman should know- ahavas yisroel requires that you want only the best for your fellow. Whether or not we help them financially and emotionally, yes, we want our beloved brother and sister, the stray Jew, to come home- that's not a secret. Finally, what I missed in the custody discussion is one rather obvious point. When an orthodox couple get married, the non- verbal contract is that you will raise your children in that community- the one who leaves breaches that contract. I've read of converts who understood they had to leave their children behind- its the prince harry story- nobody seems to have trouble with that one.
I really appreciate your open-mindedness in hearing Zalman's perspective. He really understood and empathized with everyone, and I feel the same way. Such stories get very complicated and painful but the takeaway for me is that everyone is human and trying their best in their own way.
😊Frieda, thanks for the very good interview with Zalman Newfield. His book will be very interesting ~ AND YOUR BOOK, FRIEDA, will be brilliant ❤ I am looking forward to YOUR book🦋🦋 Shalom to you and your son and Family 🌈🔆🔆🔆 Violet (Toronto ~ Australia) 🌲🌳🦚🎄🌳🌳🌳
The topics and people you interview are becoming increasingly more interesting. I am Jewish and love my faith and culture, but am not orthodox. Even though we were not Orthodox, I was raised going to an orthodox Shul. Until I was older (late teenage years) I did not know there was Conservative, Reform or any other way to pray or show my love for my Jewishness. Everyone should be able to enjoy their faith! Thank you and cannot wait to hear more from you…. Amazing Freida.
I enjoyed the intelligent dialogue and learned much as one who comes from a broken family. Sisters not talking to sisters and their families breaking contact as well. It is painful and happens in all walks of life and on levels that run the gamut. Lack of acceptance is very painful. Being isolated (shunned) is not a good thing and it scars you to your core (soul). Kindness, love and devotion should be practiced and appreciated on both sides. This is my opinion and I only speak for myself. Blessings 🙏
This was very interesting, thank you. My ancestors were Hasisdim in the old country but they converted out. Interestingly they maintained a lot of Jewish tradition. For example every Easter the whole family would gather for a week and they would greet each other saying "Chag Sameach". I always remember them arms raised up "Chag Sameach!" and they'd hug and laugh. It was fun. As a child I just thought that's what you do at easter, turns out there were many other things that I didn't recognize at the time. After some research I found they were Satmars in the old country. So this is very interesting to me, thank you so much for your channel.
There may be more twists and turns to your family's story. I did not grow up Hasidic but we did not say Chag Sameach on Passover. I learned Chag Sameach later when I got older as Israel began to influence American Jewish life. The general holiday greeting was Gut Yontif. We also wished someone a kosher Pesach. I think Hasidim from Satmar would have been more likely to wish someone "a koshern in freilachn Pesach" or something similar. Multisingular is a bubbly young woman who has a UA-cam channel featuring the New York Hasidic Yiddish of her childhood. She says that at the end of Passover, the greeting is a gezinte zimmer (a healthy summer).
It’s interesting to me that in addition to the Hasidic communities, Brooklyn was also the home to the world headquarters of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. This insular group shares many similarities with their Hasidic neighbors but do shun former members who are excommunicated or leave on their own volition. Brooklyn is an interesting place! Thanks to both of you for this fascinating interview!
@@erikkaelsbury8986 I think that you’re thinking of the Mormons. The Watchtower headquarters was on Columbia Heights just to the right when you got off the Brooklyn Bridge. They have since sold it and moved to Warwick, New York.
Frieda, I live in Ohio where the largest gathering of Amish can be found as well as Mennonite (who do not believe in shunning). My daughter married a young man whose family is Apostolic Pentecostal that remind me much more of the Hasidic than the Amish. Men and women are separated physically during church services. Women always wear very modest dresses covering everything. They always wear a crocheted doily head covering at all times. There is no courting of couples. If a boy likes a girl he tells his pastor who speaks to her pastor, they decide if the couple are a good match. The first time they meet might be at the altar! They may work within general public, but there are no tv or radio, sometimes even computers at home. There are no secular toys or books in the home. This religious group really remind me of the Williamsburg group. Today's video is very interesting!!!
You might know I had a segment on Amish society. A lot of the customs Steven Nolt spoke of were very different from Hasidism and it surprised me. Your comment was very interesting. I never heard of the Apostolic Pentecostals and I am off to google. Did your son-in-law get shunned by his family for marrying, assuming, a non-church member (based on how you describe it)?
I am also Apostolic Pentecostal. I do not wear pants, have a TV, or cut my hair. We mix with society in general. Its deeper than outward appearance, which reflects the condition of the inner heart. We believe in the literal interpretation of the bible. Your hair is your covering, a veil is not needed. We do not shun, but neither does the bible recommend marrying an unbeliever.
Its important to note that it is human nature to have some kind of preference / nostalgia in some form for the types of foods and flavors we grow up with. To me this is absolutely zero indication of a person wanting to reconnect to a culture they grew up with. If your parents bring you to mcd's every Friday then you will forever have a sense of nostalgia to those smells, flavors, and foods. Even if you hade the most miserable upbringing.
I really appreciate this interview. This is so much more authentic about the Ex-Hasidic community than the Hollywood versions that to me are too cartoonish. Even though you left your communities I actually find this much more positive toward those who left the community as well as those who stayed in the community. Awesome
If I recall, Tevya cuts Chava off altogether, but then at the very end, you see the mother (who we know runs the show) turn around and tell her where they will be in America.
As I was listening to you discuss the shunning narrative, I had a couple of thoughts on why this might happen besides what you had said. I left a high control Christian fundamentalist religion 10 years ago. In more fundamentalist Christian sects, this practice is wildly popular. In my southern Baptist sect, it was commonly accepted that if you allowed these people to continue to have contact with you, it will bring “ungodly things” upon them. So, there’s often a complete severance. I experienced this personally when I left. Further, In Midwestern Amish, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mennonite, and Mormon cultures this is also practiced. Having funerals or considering the person “dead” is coming. My grandfather left Jehovah’s Witnesses and converted to southern Baptistdom and his family had a literal funeral for him and the night they had a funeral his family came to plea for him to change his mind or never have contact again, he never had contact again. Often, to keep their places in the community it’s required to practice shunning because there can’t be any “Sin in the camp”. So, I wonder if some Of the outside narrative is being further because many Americans who have experienced Christianity have seen this, and they can’t grasp that someone leaving a high control group would experience anything else. As a exfundie, I have often assume that when talking to people who have left high control groups, they do not have contact with their families, but I am trying to stop making that generalized assumption. I also, feel like in what I culturally know, seen, and lived is that it depends on the level of “sin” committed. For example, I’m a queer woman, married to another queer woman. This was the worst of the worst, so you’re treated differently than if say I had just gotten pregnant outside of being married. So, those types of things make a more convoluted difference. But, yeah, just some thoughts I had while watching that make me think a bit. I really enjoy your content, thanks for sharing!
The story of your father makes me sad. You are right, I would guess, about why people assume Hasidim shun. Zalman touches on that too. I do think the Amish shunning experience is more complicated however. I did an interview with Steven Nolt and he explained some of the complexities.
Shunning is not practiced or condoned in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) church. If you know of a family that has done this, they are not following the teachings of the church. We do not shun anyone! Jesus Christ never shunned people, and we are to be like Him as best we can.
@@98823rochelle That's good to know and also sad to know. I know several people in the local who were involved in local LDS communities. I agree that Jesus never shunned anyone, it's unfortunate how people have used the name of Jesus to create so many atrocities and to push agendas that I could not see him supporting.
Love your videos--thank you. I was raised sort of casually Reform--yet to this day, even the thought of eating milk and meat makes me nauseous! (And this is despite our going to non-Kosher restaurants when I was a kid)
An amzing and informative interview. I love what he says about his parents. I think my grandmother would probably do the same going to certain homes. She isn't Jewish but a clean freak. Fyi her father was Jewish but he assimilated to the christian world. It bothers me but I love to learn about Judaism especially the different sects.
All the Gedolim and leaders of the frum community, all of them are very strong in their opinion ,that you must keep a strong and loving relationship with the child that left.
I understand the draw to the customs and rituals. My family has been Catholic for hundreds of years. I was raised not overly religious, but I was raised Catholic. I don’t agree with many of the teachings and have never believed in God, but I’m still Catholic 🤷♀️
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I can just tell you of another single episode that I witnessed. At our annual holiday party in the office, the young man who worked in the mail room, a totally secular Israeli, was enjoyed the good food. At some point, someone was talking about one of the spreads that was made of pork or ham and he suddenly realized what he had eaten and the horror of what he had just done was visible. The poor guy was shaken to his core. And, yes, he ran to the men's room...I guess to try to expel it from his body.
@FriedaVizelBrooklyn My grandmother was a kosher caterer in Stamford CT, but, if she put the forks in the wrong drawers, she didn't bury them in the yard; she just put them in the right drawer--whichever that one was. My father was actively non-religious. My exhusband was raised more religious than I. I am not affiliated with any Jewish Congregation. My kids had a Reform bar/bat mitzvah. Even the one cousin who is Orthodox (Lubavish) is not a person who pushes his religion on anyone else.
Baruch Spinoza was shunned in an official way. He was excommunicated (herem). Did his parents and other relatives cut off contact? What if Spinoza had been a modern day Satmarer from Williamsburg?
Baruch Spinoza's community was the Portuguese Jewish Community of Amsterdam. Most of this community arrived in the Netherlands after having been formally converted to Roman Catholicism in Portugal by the Inquisition for a generation or two and "reverted" to Judaism once in Holland.
I'll tell you something interesting. My family has been Reform since Reform started 200 years ago. I grew up eating everything. One of my favorite meals was my mother (Jewish) roast pork and homemade applesauce. I also loved raw oysters and cheeseburgers. Yet, as I got older not only did my taste change but I found that certain things didn't agree with me - like pork, like shell fish, like meat and milk/milk products together. At first I didn't realize it and just put it down to my delicate stomach, but finally I couldn't ignore it any longer. Now, where did that come from? Not from my mother or my grandparents. But it happened. DNA???
Great job on this video and I think what you do is very important and helpful. It is a much more balanced view than we normally get of the hassidic culture and community and I really appreciate that. My big pet peeve on most of the big media portrayals and even when I speak to individuals is that (a) the whole issue is addressed as though the entire orthodox community or even the entirety of a specific sector of the community is one massive group who are all exactly the same and therefore they are spoken about as if they all think, say, act, feel the same way instead of each person emphasizing that it is their INDIVIDUAL experience and what they perceived with their individual insights within their particular individual interactions with the individuals they interacted with and really emphasize that fact. Once one starts to say "they all feel this way" no matter what group it is about, that is wrong. And if one were to do about certain other groups in our society, people would rise up against it, and (b) it is an assumed given that living in the "outside" world is better, more "correct" way of living if you will, that it is more accepting of more things which is automatically also absolutely accepted as better or "more correct". I daresay that if a typical academic secular family were suddenly to have their child who they tried to infuse with their philosophy of education and a certain standard of living and to whom they gave what they thought were the best opportunities in life, if that child were to come home one day and say they decided to join the satmar sect, just as an example, because they find that life much more meaningful and beautiful...if that were to happen, I don't think the parents would be all that accepting right away either. (Just as an aside, I happen to know a family that was Jewish but very secular and all 3 of their children decided to become orthodox..not hassidic necessarily, simply orthodox and one went on to become a well-known doctor. However, the mother never made peace with it and bemoans the fact that they made this move even into her 90s! ) In that last case scenario (of the academic turning satmar), every set of parents would deal with that child and that jolt to their value system in their own very individual way. Some would handle it worse than others; some better. Why can we accept that but we cannot accept that orthodox people are also individuals and not just assume that if someone told their memoir (which obviously is told from a very subjective, rather than objective, place and could be totally flawed actually) then everything they say is taken as true and not just true, but true for the ENTIRE group bar very rare exceptions?
Great points! So much depends on the individual relationship. And the double standard is real! Many baalei teshuva were cut off completely from their secular family, cut out from wills etc and that is totally acceptable. As a side note, the more I learn about the secular world the more thankful I am for the beautiful and safe community we have built
Great comments. I think at the core, for me, it's not that I think it's cool for parents to offer conditional love, I just think it's human nature and we see it everywhere. People love to pretend that this happens only in insular worlds but I think the challenge of accepting children who turn out different from how we raise them is universal.
Zalman's remarks about college and partying reminded me of my college years at the University of Iowa in the 1970's. I was totally shocked and disgusted with what I saw. I had trouble finding a group of friends in the dormitory because I didn't drink, take drugs, or have sex. In those days you could drink at 18 years of age. The men's floor would have a party with kegs of beer and invite a girl's floor. The freshman girls would invariably say they don't drink beer. The boys would say "No problem" and offer them "punch" which was Everclear and Hi-C. The boys would wait for the girls drinking punch to be ready to pass out so they could take them back to the room. Many kids from small towns and farms had very restricted and conservative lives in High School but went wild in college. They had never studied or done homework in High School but college was different. They were shocked no one reminded them about their term paper. They were shocked when they realized they could actually be kicked out for failing grades.
I was called boring by my own sister because I was not interested in the same behaviors you named and preferred spending my time reading or watching TV as there were not opportunities to be introduced to other activities through lack of access or finances. I did end up being on my own a lot but as an independent woman who enjoys my own company, I'm more appreciative of that time.
I grew up Catholic and became a Christian when I turned 18. My Dad was a devout Catholic and he believed my choice meant I was going to go to Hell. It was a very painful process. He took my pictures out of his wallet and tore them up and said he had no daughter. He kicked me out of the house. My mother who was usually very timid stood up to him saying this is my house too. She let me stay. However, everything changed. If I walked into a room he was in, he got up and left. If I was in a room and he walked in, he would turn around and leave. For two months - he never spoke to me. This was even during Christmas. I had to move my spot at the dinner table. I used to sit next to him at dinner but he would get up. Then it was decided to eat together but I had to sit one seat over - away from him. I cried the night it happened but after that no more. I was never mad at my father - because I knew he was hurt, believing that I would go to Hell. He finally spoke to me as I was getting into a limousine ( my family and even my friends were afraid to help me be “off the path” (if I may borrow your phrase.) . My father took car privileges from me. I decided to move across country from New Jersey to Oklahoma. So I had to fly. No one would take me to the airport so I took a limousine. I said goodbye to my mother and left to go the limousine and my father came running out - to hug me goodbye and tell me he loved me. He still did not talk to me once I moved. I moved back for the summer as the roommate I had graduated from school and our lease ran out. During those 3 months I never got my original seat back at the dinner table but my father no longer left a room when I entered… and he started talking to me - though strained - he talked to me once again. He ended up walking me down the aisle in a park - not a church and our relationship changed for the good. My father also became a Christian 3 years before he died and he never went back to the Catholic Church except to be buried.
What? Catholics are the ORIGINAL Christians. I don’t get why Protestants insist on calling themselves “Christians” and excluding Catholics, who were the ONLY Christians for the first millennium of Church existence. The term “Protestant” is descriptive, not denigratory, and followers of Christ in those denominations were proud to identify themselves not that long ago.
@@jmj5388 : I can tell you that as a Catholic - I was not a Christian. I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from - but growing up Catholic- I personally was not a Christian. My dad wanted me to go to the Catholic Church on Nov. 2nd - a holy day of obligation- to pray to saints. Protestants do not pray to saints.
@@sandyblack4465 So you are a Protestant. No problem. It’s sad that your father is shunning and otherwise punishing you, which is not the behavior of any faithful Christian. Your decision to leave the Church must have hurt him very much. That he escorted you at your wedding is something, because, while they are not prohibited from attending a reception or party, Catholics are not to participate in non-Catholic wedding ceremonies of baptized Catholics. It saddens me to see family members drift away from the Church, but I just pray for them to return and leave the rest to the Lord, for it is He Who converts, but He still honors our free will. Peace to you.
I enjoyed the interview immensely I commend you on all your interviews they are really very objective and like to present things from both perspectives, I appreciate the fact even though yourself and the people that you interview were able to acquire all the skills needed to be able tp present such interviews I still think that you could have done so staying in your community and believing that Hashem does exist and its not a figment of our imagination and by staying in helping the communities grow in the areas that drove you to leave its still very enjoyable to listen to your interviews, I appreciate your contribution and efforts thank you good luck to you
Chaya, all I can say is there are many people who stay and make the community a better place in their own ways, and I've always felt immense admiration for them.
It's hard for parents who believe that their children are putting their immortal souls at risk to simply accept a child's leaving the only path that - in their mind - guarantees eternal salvation; a path which has served them (the patents) so well and which they have tried their best to instill in their children; to accept that their child is rejecting what they see as the most precious gift that they have to give and the essence of all the wisdom they've accumulated throughout their lives. My father was devoutly Catholic. He grew up in a communist country and had questioned his faith deeply after he was incarcerated, tortured and almost killed when he was young for being a dissident during the Stalinist era, but after months of deep contemplation (and he was a brilliant man; a scholar of History and Philosophy with a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering - and fluent in 8 languages, etc.), he concluded that going back to his faith was the only right path for him and was devastated when I left Catholicism and embarked on my own path of exploration (during which I regrettably also had a brush with a sect, which I ended up leaving and blowing wide open) and then ended up immersing myself in Buddhism and finally finding a spiritual path of my own. It was not until he actually met the kind and also scholarly Buddhist Rinpoche whose lectures I'd been attending and had a long debate with him which led him to conclude that I would "be alright", that his mind was finally set at ease again, so it's hard for all concerned in such stories and I understand the parents' concerns - although the ones leaving do have it harder because they lose the greater part of the connections they had in the only community they've known until then. (Luckily not something I experienced, as Catholicism isn't as insular as some other fairhs, but I can imagine how it is for people leaving more closed communities.) Tolerance is the only way through such things though, and how they handle a person's leaving us, ino, a test of a person's and a family's and the whole community's maturity (and ultimately a teat if the value of the faith itself.)
An insightful, thought provoking interview! Thank you Frieda! I'm curious, have you ever met/heard of Chavie Weisberger? She too is an ex-Hasidim, and her experience in and leaving the community was very negative (I saw her as a guest on a podcast where she talked about her experiences growing up Hasidic, and her journey out of it). Some of the topics Zalman talked about made me think of her, and I wonder if you'd be open to interviewing her if an opportunity arose
I do know Chavie - I've even enjoyed the interviews she's in. In general I try to limit my content on the "off the derech" story because I don't want to be that kind of channel. I have considered inviting Chavie to talk about her experience as a beloved teacher in a Hasidic girls' school - I think that would be interesting. The students adored her and she taught religion and faith - so she'd have a very interesting perspective.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Of course. Your channel, your space, your rules. I was not aware of Chavie being a teacher at a Hasidic school (at least I don't recall it coming up in the interview I saw her in). I do hope she comes on your channel to talk about that experience. There's far more to her and her story than being ex-Hasidic
@@tamaratamtammorris8151 Yeah, I have to work up the courage to ask her. I know several people in the community who know her, her videos, and remember her time in the community very fondly.
Its important to understand that just as every every Hasidic exit story and continued family contact situation is very different--so is it for Amish exiters! Amish shunning is not universal, and each Amish exiter and their family have a different story. It's disingenous to assume that the Hasidic separation story varies, but the Amish separation story doesn't!
This was a very interesting interview. Zalman is so articulate. Frieda--I'm new to your channel, and perhaps you have this information in a video I haven't seen. I would be very interested in hearing more about your personal journey--of course, only if and when you feel ok about sharing your experience. BTW, I'm a secular Jew, and do consider myself to be an atheist. I think that atheism and ageism are the two final frontiers where discrimination seemed to be part of the culture.
This is an excellent interview. I am a non-religious Jew, but still very culturally Jewish. When I was a kid, we knew Joe Lieberman's family in Stamford, CT. They lived across the street. There were 3 Lieberman children. Joe was the oldest. My grandmother, the caterer at Aguduth Shalom, the Orthodox Synagogue in Stamford CT. She catered Joe's bar mitzvah & his parents' wedding. Rietta, Joe's younger sister by 2 years, married a non Jew. We are talking in the 1960s. The Lieberman parents agonized over whether to sit shiva for Rietta. Finally, common sense prevailed and they accepted the marriage. The best I know they are still happily married & live in Oklahoma. I think sitting shiva was a custom from the shetls of Eastern Europe. I have no personal experience with Hassidim. I love your videos, Frieda.
Such a good episode. Will be purchasing his book. I’m Canadian. Not religious at all. But I think many ppl in North America ‘see’ this sort of grey separation in the lives of immigrants who have come from non-western countries. How traditional or not traditional they continue to be in their new lives in the western world - often they may express it differently. Also interesting is the self declared ‘hard break’ from a culture, family dynamic, etc. That if anything - is a link to the past. It’s not a natural progressive move from 1 way of life to another. Def the concept of ‘expelled from xxx & cut off’ is sort of painted by Christian fundamental practices of certain churches. FLDS Mormonism, the Amish, etc. The structure of a religious group, esp family structure likely encourages to some extend for those that have left - the remaining family to want to stay in touch. As for the legal issues of child custody - it’s a little concerning. In Canada - the default for custody is shared physical and legal between the parents. If a judge awarded primary custody to the parent within the religious community only - it would def be looked down upon as favouring that side. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen here - but the concept of ‘what’s easiest for the child’ is no longer the primary goal. Our legal system is different tho.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn i have never experienced anything like it but makes me wonder - is there a better way of disentangling from a group? or is every situation different?
A very interesting conversation. I'm a gay ex-muslim (I say ex-muslim as a descriptor more than an identity) from a religious/'orthodox' family, and my exiting the religion was extremely turbulent. I was part of a grassroots group that helped/supported/brought visibility to exmuslims (then later other faiths), and got to know a lot of the narratives/people/politics 'behind the scenes' here in the UK. I often witnessed the initial (understandable) anger phase of leaving Islam/the community, but then for most people this strong resentment/attachment to being an ex-muslim as a sole identity subsides, but for a few this is double downed on. Relationships with family are very often strained and in many cases become minimal/non-existent, but in most cases it is nothing like that, and often has a two-way component - it's hardly ever the hollywood dramatic story arc that people on the outside, or even exmuslims themselves, expect (not to say it never happens, but there are often other complicating factors). I could also say the same about gay coming narratives in general. I now have an amicable (albeit strained) relationship with my parents, even if it took a while for both of us to grow, though things are now totally fine with my siblings. I also found the point about the religion itself creating the impetus to leave interesting, as I was a very pious believer. Commitment to learning how to interpret the quran/tradition and valuing a commitment to truth (without intercessors) was deeply ingrained in me, which led me to my own historiographic interpretation and truth, but also values like not readily cutting ties with family. If there is one thing that I have truly learnt, it's that religion, identity, family... and just life, is complex/long and our relationships with our families/ourselves always evolve in the most unexpected ways that I can pretty much guarantee never fits into any clean narrative. The idea that exiting narratives can also sometimes be pushed/inflamed by outside(/media/political) actors resonated deeply with me, and I have seen/felt firsthand how this narrative can even be internalized by the exitor themself before/after leaving (even against their own actual experience). I especially see this lately where there is an increasing pressure(perhaps clout) to fit into an idealized/sensationalized reactionary ex/anti-muslim narrative, with exmuslims' experiences being exploited by them (sometimes facilitated by exmuslims themselves) for nefarious/self-serving reasons, but also often innocently, especially when there are some uncritical parts of (I don't like this term but...) 'progressive/woke' circles that refuse to acknowledge the real trauma exmuslim exitors go through, leaving some exmuslims especially in their 'anger phase' more open to being exploited. There are also quite a few differences that I have noticed that I would be interested to get another perspective on - about the differing extents it is meaningful/possible to be an ex-muslim/'ex-'jewish. As Islam is foundationally a belief-based religion (with an associated practice), one is no longer a muslim as soon as you don't believe, but often exmuslims (like myself now) residually identify (by choice or not) with some aspects of being a muslim to the extent it was their upbringing, affinity for certain holidays/traditions, and given names/appearances which mean they will still be perceived as a muslim by outsiders. Calling myself an 'ex-'muslim can feel both too extreme, but also meaningless, though no other terms seem to fit any better. From my understanding of Judaism there is also an ethnic component, and secular (or conservative, or reform) Jewish cultures that exist, where even an 'atheist' or reform/secular jew can still be seen in a certain/minimal way as halachically/authentically/meaningfully jewish by the orthodox/other jewish people/the outside. Judaism's/Jewishness' combination of religious, cultural, and ethnic elements seems to allow for a broader spectrum of Jewish identity, which is more able to accommodate secular or atheist Jews who maintain a connection to their Jewish heritage to different degrees, in a way that is still understood. But this simply isn't the case in Islam, where as much as I may think a more accurate description of myself would be as a cultural/secular/atheist muslim (though even these don't really fit), this would be inconceivable/incomprehensible to most muslims (esp. orthodox) and has no real meaning (except ultimately as apostasy) given the lack of there being any secular 'muslim' culture/ethnicity/heritage in the same way. This isn't to say that being being seen as e.g. poshea/meshumad/kofer/mumar l'hakh can not be religiously/socially grave, just that there also seems to exist possible halakhic/ethnocultural alternatives of understanding apostasy, unlike Islam. Then there is also the differing relationship to diaspora given Islam was never conceived/forged as a community/religion/tradition learning to survive and adapt in diaspora, rather there is doctrinal dislocation/rigidity and psychological/cultural instability/insecurity within muslim diasporic communities (like my own in the UK) in understanding what it means to be a muslim/your ethnicity/culture, especially in the case of non-arab muslim identities. Without the more localised/community centric approach to religious practice, it's also often the case that extremist muslims are given a disproportionate voice, simultaneously by the saudi/wahabbi homogenization of islamic communities, and by the anti-muslim reactionaries that give those extremists more power/attention to influence/define islam, which then translates to the community within (especially in a european ethnic minority diaspora context where communal religious tradition and learning has broken down, where the community feels under threat by very real racism/bigotry, and given an implicit arab/non-arab hierarchy) I guess this is all to say that there is something particularly beautiful/humanistic in (broader) Jewish culture in its wrestling with/accommodating human complexity/identity/belief/practice and adapting to local circumstances, that I'm not sure could ever be overcome within Islam, perhaps making islam/ex/muslims more prone to instability.
I would love to hear about your experiences. If you left a faith, or someone you love left your faith, did you maintain a relationship? What is that relationship like?
G-d bless you Frieda Vizel for sharing such wonderful videos and being such a wonderful person. From Brooklyn, NY.
I am 78 years old from a secular Jewish family raised in the Southern USA. I find your work very interesting but can not relate to anti-Zionism. In Israel I a saw the destructive influence of an anti-Zionist group that for the most part lives off the benefits of Israel with almost no contribution. Where would they go if Israel falls. Use a lot of human services $, do not enter the military, and basically cause harm. Israel needs support for its national existence.
@@Robertoamapasuno I hear you very much but I think there are different forms of anti-zionism. Some are more antagonistic and divisive than others. I think Naturei Karte is universally despised because they are so terribly divisive. Satmar is no friend of such antizionists.
@@Robertoamapasuno I lived in Baton Rouge Louisiana for a couple years and a very good friend told me about the history of the Liberal Synagogue which broke away from Temple B’nai Israel over Zionism. The rabbi at Temple B’nai Israel would not allow any fund raising for the Zionist movement in Palestine. The rabbi at B'nai Israel was a member of American Council for Judaism, which opposed the creation of a Jewish state. Anti-Zionism was very common among Reform rabbis in the South before the creation of the State of Israel which people have forgotten.
@@Robertoamapasuno I think you may be mistaken about them taking money from the government. There are may fundraisers who come to America to raise funds to support the people in these communities because the refuse to take money from the government.
I left Islam and converted to Christianity which can be a very dangerous thing. Still to this day I can’t be completely open about it to the outside world (as is requested by my family for my own safety). But my close family members are very accepting and respectful of it, thank God! It even deepened our relationships because I am a lot happier now.
So happy to hear about your family and wishing you a sense of safety in the world.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Thanks so much Frieda! Love your channel! 💖
Stay safe prayers for you and others..
If you don't mind the question,why can that be dangerous? do Muslims get jealous if you convert to Christianity?safe prayers and God Bless you.
@@nathancoleman7235 literally a delete sentence to leave it.
So wonderful to hear a conversation between two brilliant, interesting, articulate, and sensitive scholars. A treat!
Thank you ❤️
My grandmother's family sat Shiva for her when she married an Italian man from a Catholic family. This would have been sometime between 1945-1948 in Chicago. My grandmother's family was not Hasidic. Just wanted to share this personal example. Thank you for your work Freida! Love your thoughtful, fascinating, and respectful content. This is another great interview!
I want to say I love what you share! I am African American and I grew up in New Jersey there are some very large Hasadic communites. Your videos have taught me so much. It also helped me understand the community I came in contact in while I was visiting israel. I am formerly Mormon (LDS) and exiting that community as an adult was a journey. Keep posting your content I am a supporter! Thank you so much!
Good luck on your journey! I enjoy hearing about other people on other faith journeys.
African American Mormon? I thought they don't accept black people in lds?
I thought LD$ Churchvdid not accept black$ !!!???
From a non Jewish viewer I only see love from Frieda and the beauty of Judaism .
I agree
The sense of community and friendship within the Chabad community is amazing. There’s nothing like it.
@tamararutland-mills9530 I'm a secular Jew My cousins are orthodox I call them cult followers Women are treated like 2nd class citizens Whether Jewish, Christian or Muslims What they all have e in common is using fear mongering and they are all obsessed with rituals Nothing make sense It's very sad
Not all Jews are like this. Remember we are regular people just like any other , human and flawed.
I found your channel about three weeks ago and find it extremely interesting and helpful. Your voice is very comforting. You ask all the important questions and provide answers to even the most basic questions. The people you interview are highly knowledgeable. I’m learning a great deal. Thank you.
I am a Jew who was not raised to be very religious. Even though previous generations of my family were orthodox.
When my grandparents came to Australia from Hungary they became less religious.
Chabad Lubavitch in Australia has been wonderful to me, and have been very welcoming and non judgemental.
So I now observe more.
The chabad community can be very loving, especially to secular Jews. Perhaps it's because they're secular or perhaps it's because our best go on shlichus.
❤
Thank you for the privilege of listening to such an interesting, deeply thoughtful, and balanced conversation.
Beautiful video. I see the fact of bringing their own food and table cloth, and a sign of love: they follow their beliefs, but their son is so important to them, that they bring everything over to spend that time with him
I was raised a devout Christian. I left the church but still have my faith. My church and my very religious parents did not accept gays and each of my sisters has a gay child (adults) whom I love very much and accept. I could no longer attend the church as I do not agree with their views on gays but I never lost my faith and my relationship with God. I really enjoy your interviews Frieda. ❤❤❤
Thank you for sharing. ❤️
There are churches that accept everyone
I'm only 17 minutes in and I already have so many things to say!!! What a wonderful and poignant interview!!!
I'm mentioned in several previous comments how I grew up in a strict orthodox Mormon household, and leaving was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. The guilt, the certainty that I was going to Hell with a one-way ticket, the loss of friends, losing my sense of belonging to a community, and losing the support that community provided.
I think the experience can be equally traumatic for the family and in much the same ways. Their fear for your spiritual wellbeing, your soul, worry about your loss of friendships and community, worry for your loss of the support structures your accustomed to. These are real pains for the family too, and should not be left out of the conversation.
But as we progress into discussing what we inherit and take with us from these religions cultures, that's something I am becoming more and more aware of in my own daily experience of life. And I left the Church over 20 years ago. But certain ideas, values, habits, etc not only continue to be a part of my life, they literally shape the fabric of my personality and how I relate to the world around me. Friends who have know me throughout my adult life continue to point out certain traits in me as stemming from the Mormon in my genes. And it's because of them that I have been able to become more self aware.
19:06 "Roll Residuals" is a very applicable, descriptive term for the phenomena. 💛
22:44 I still have panic attacks when I find myself in certain social situations which contradict the values I was raised with. Not all, but some. It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't necessarily have to. Sometimes it will be so bad that I have to leave the situation and other times I can sort of observe the anxiety in myself and be completely aware of it, but I can't make it go away. I just have to work through it.
1:16:33 In my experience, those who leave the Mormon community often do so because they've "sinned" and since they then believe they're going to Hell anyway, they might as well go for it, and so they'll explore sex, drugs, or other behaviors to an extreme. Not because they're finally free, or because partying is part of their social life, but as both a way of acting out against the feelings of being Damned almost a rebellious act of defiance, and self-inflicted punishment where one no longer feels worthy of better and so they subject themselves to drugs, sex, etc., not to explore but as a form of self loathing which compiles.
I can hear that. We see a similar thing with sexual abuse victims I think and it's very sad.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I've seen this in both scenarios, and I agree. It's very sad indeed. But I've also seen people heal from it, learn to forgive themselves and discover meaning in some extraordinarily beautiful ways.
What a great interview ❤ as someone who lives between worlds I can appreciate the complexity he’s trying to give over
Just ordered his book. I was also married to a Shneur Zalman (also from CH) and as a BT, my experience was that when I divorced, I was to some extent un-personed, and when my kids went OTD, I became fully non-existent, even though I'm as frum as ever and it was not at all the Rebbe's way to write people off like that. I don't have a quarrel with Hashem, but I definitely have issues with "Frum Incorporated," which I feel has taken over Yiddishkeit.
@Dana Goldstein Do you live in Crown Heights? Would the experience be different if you attended a Chabad House with many Jews whose only Jewish observance is attending a Chabad event on occasion?
There are many UA-cam viewers who make comments about Chabad being open, accepting, and non-judgemental. Is this a false picture?
@@stephenfisher3721 They might be more open loving and accepting than, say, Satmar and Belz. It may also be they are that way to strangers and new returnees more so than their full fledged members
I enjoyed this conversation! The memoirs and fiction I read, on any subject, that navigate the nuanced realities of human experience and show a person coming to peace without the "bad to good" dichotomy Zalman talks about are more satisfying to me than the super dramatic ones, no matter their "shock" value. "We need to tell better stories" indeed, across the board.
What a profoundly wonderful, thoughtful, and information-packed interview. Thank you!
This interview brought back so many memories for me. My parents were divorced when I was 5 ( in 1959) and my mother left her Orthodox background. She was given custody of my brother and me after several years. She remarried (to a Jewish man) and by the time I was 9, they converted to Roman Catholicism and sent us to Catholic school. I don't know which was more traumatic, losing my father and my extended family or changing religious communities from Jewish to Catholic seemingly overnight. To this day, I still consider myself Jewish.
Such a good conversation. His students at Hunter surely benefit from such a lively and intelligent professor!
Wow! Thank you so much Frieda for this amazing video. The humble and authentic revelations from both you and Professor Newfield was touching and I related to alot of it. I was brought up in the Catholic faith but have left it behind many years ago. My reasons are many and varied but suffice to say I am much happier. I have peace of mind and my soul is calm. I am in touch with my family and we have reached a compromise. They still see me as catholic and pray that one day I will return to the fold but I know I won't. Looking forward to more of your videos.
You do beautiful work with most interesting people.
I find you such a loving, forgiving, non judgement scholar and greatly appreciate your insight into your exit to a less orthodox life. I like how you kept what is dear to you.
Hi frieda fantastic video as usual, I just want to say my son went on the tour to Poland organised by the belzaer rebbe and its true there was no hidden agenda at all my son was made to feel loved even though he has left the hasdic life it was a positive experience for him not to change him but to show they except his new way of life with no judgement
I would love to interview him about it.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Hope you do!
Dear Frida, I love your podcast I love your videos very much the thing that I wanted to mention was, it’s not only religious people that perpetrate a separation from a child grown child who is different and who have shut down all communication causing great pain. My situation, which I would like to mention to you happened when I was not a child I was 37 years old. I had a very responsible job and the supervisor of many people, who were my tech people I had also great respect in my job. My situation was that I fell in love with a man who was separated from his wife of 25 years. This was not a trivial separation, but one of long, long suffering. The man I fell in love with thought that I was his wonderful thing that ever happened to him, but the thing is I wanted to live on my own. My parents were first generation Italian and you didn’t leave home until you got married. When I decided that I was old enough to make my own decision, and although sorrowful to have a separation, I was told to turn over my house keys and get everything out of the house that I wanted to take that weekend. They were no phone calls to be made and no acknowledgment of me on the street if they happen to see me. This of course caused me great pain and suffering. The separation lasted for 20 years until my mother was dying and asked for me. So got in the car and we drove two hours to be by her bedside and she said that her mother who is long dead told her that she should contact me. Of course she did. my grandmother was the most wonderful, understanding woman, now my husband came with me of course and my mother met him for the first time and it was all smiles and happiness and I remember my father saying over the 20 years old about then. Of course, this was my mother doing but I was going to go to see her if she asked for me, I would never refuse a dying wish. After my mother passed, I got to know my father for the first time my mother, of course was the most dominant parent and dad just worked and kept everything going. We had a wonderful relationship for the eight years that he had left to life and I don’t think I would’ve ever gotten to know my father in such a close way. I am so glad that I had the love and support of my husband for 38 years before he passed. I’m so glad I did accept the separation and moved on with my life.😮
Heartbreaking and beautiful. Thanks so much for sharing. Feels very much like something I can relate to.
Another great interview and well done. Thank you for sharing more very interesting content.
I so much loved this conversation. Was the highlight of my day today to get to listen to. Very informative.
Thanks for listening
What a lovely video, hard to watch in many places but good. Seems to be a man who has come through a lot and is sane. Thank you.
Excellent. Dr Newfield is a very thoughtful man and your questions were on target. Thank you!
Zelde it was such an HONOR to meet you today. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for making my day, your kindness, your generosity, your wonderful neshama! I will be in touch privately. I wish we could have had coffee afterwards but I was in a rush to get home.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Back atcha…I look forward to hearing from you!
I really enjoyed this video, Frieda. Zalman is very informative and I loved hearing him speak. Thank you. Please have him back again!!
Espectacular entrevista. Les felicito. Shalom desde Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
What a great interview! I enjoyed every minute. Thanks so much, Frieda and Zalman!
Great topic, wonderful guest and thoughtfully presented.
Always love your interviews Frieda!
Thank you both, a truly enlightening discussion. I am grateful for the sharing and to have the opportunity to hear the discussion. Frieda, thank you for sharing that you do not like to discuss your story because of the secular revision, it provided me another perspective that is honest and refreshing. Thank you for all you do! I feel I am learning and I appreciate it.
Very insightful conversation. Thank you!
hi Frieda, I just discovered your channel. I love it. Thank you!
Hello Frieda! Hi Zalman! Nice to see you both.
😊Thank you, Frieda, for the very interesting interviw with tge brilliant Zalman Newfiel. Shalom to you, your beloved Family and wonderful Friends🦋🦋 Violet 🌳🦚🌲🎄🌳🌳🌳
Thank you for watching Violet!
Thank you for another very interesting interview.
I ❤ my Chabad community. I was just invited to Gimmel Tammuz dinner to honor the inspiration and vision of the Rebbe. I don’t feel the need to keep a lot of the multitude of traditions, but the sense of community is really amazing. I just grew to love the people, but in all honesty: I don’t think I could ever be orthodox.
just take one step at a time. We are all a work in progress
Great conversation and as a product of a mixed marriage who grew up with zero community or training in either of my parents’ religions, I am “coming back” to my Judaism later in life, although I never consciously left! The Belzer Rebbe piece strongly reminded me of some evangelical christians who hold classes in “straight” living for gays struggling with their LGBTQ+ identities. Incidentally I have known people who met their same sex partners in those classes! Essentially the role of organized religion is to bring people in and keep them in, so even if it is only in their subconscious, and not the “official agenda”, the Belzer Rebbe wants to bring the people back! After all, there is a place for a warm welcome home for any voyager who decides to return.
There is such a heroic aspect to people who are willing to risk everything to live their truth. Their strength blows my mind.
Great interview. I can relate to so much mentioned here. Thank you!
Very articulate. Thank you.
I just started watching! Thank you. One thing that I would like to say I think people ask about how individuals who leave are asking from a place of fear. They are deep down terrified of losing the familial connection and thus want to understand if it happens and then how it affects those that are experiencing it.
You have really helped me with your videos and courage. I left the Hebrew Roots Movement 7 years ago and still struggle with the lost if my religion. Thanks the rabbis who taught me about Judaism I have had “shade” under which to rest, think and forgive myself for I see as a giant embarrassment. I have so much more to say about this but I’d rather thank you. One if the warmest videos I’ve seen if yours is the one with Sara Braun on being a black Hasidic woman. You both were lovely ❤️🤗.
And this is one of the better stories. Great discussion - thank you. 💖💕🇨🇦
Another well-done & fascinating episode.
I appreciate zalman's broad mindedness and honesty. I LOVE the satmar couple who so succinctly explain their dilemma (" you want us to tell the judge we worry about his eternal soul?"). As for the belzers who help OTD people without (or with) ulterior motives. As a lubavitcher, zalman should know- ahavas yisroel requires that you want only the best for your fellow. Whether or not we help them financially and emotionally, yes, we want our beloved brother and sister, the stray Jew, to come home- that's not a secret.
Finally, what I missed in the custody discussion is one rather obvious point. When an orthodox couple get married, the non- verbal contract is that you will raise your children in that community- the one who leaves breaches that contract. I've read of converts who understood they had to leave their children behind- its the prince harry story- nobody seems to have trouble with that one.
I really appreciate your open-mindedness in hearing Zalman's perspective. He really understood and empathized with everyone, and I feel the same way. Such stories get very complicated and painful but the takeaway for me is that everyone is human and trying their best in their own way.
😊Frieda, thanks for the very good interview with Zalman Newfield. His book will be very interesting ~ AND YOUR BOOK, FRIEDA, will be brilliant ❤ I am looking forward to YOUR book🦋🦋 Shalom to you and your son and Family 🌈🔆🔆🔆 Violet (Toronto ~ Australia) 🌲🌳🦚🎄🌳🌳🌳
This is a great conversation! Thank you!
amazing vulnerability and courage thanks for sharing
The topics and people you interview are becoming increasingly more interesting. I am Jewish and love my faith and culture, but am not orthodox. Even though we were not Orthodox, I was raised going to an orthodox Shul. Until I was older (late teenage years) I did not know there was Conservative, Reform or any other way to pray or show my love for my Jewishness. Everyone should be able to enjoy their faith! Thank you and cannot wait to hear more from you…. Amazing Freida.
Great as always! 👏🎉🤗
I enjoyed the intelligent dialogue and learned much as one who comes from a broken family. Sisters not talking to sisters and their families breaking contact as well. It is painful and happens in all walks of life and on levels that run the gamut. Lack of acceptance is very painful. Being isolated (shunned) is not a good thing and it scars you to your core (soul). Kindness, love and devotion should be practiced and appreciated on both sides. This is my opinion and I only speak for myself. Blessings 🙏
Very interesting conversation. You are an excellent interviewer and choose fantastic guests! Thank you!
Thanks!
Wow, Joe, thank you so very much for your generosity! Shana tova!
This was very interesting, thank you. My ancestors were Hasisdim in the old country but they converted out. Interestingly they maintained a lot of Jewish tradition. For example every Easter the whole family would gather for a week and they would greet each other saying "Chag Sameach". I always remember them arms raised up "Chag Sameach!" and they'd hug and laugh. It was fun. As a child I just thought that's what you do at easter, turns out there were many other things that I didn't recognize at the time. After some research I found they were Satmars in the old country. So this is very interesting to me, thank you so much for your channel.
There may be more twists and turns to your family's story. I did not grow up Hasidic but we did not say Chag Sameach on Passover. I learned Chag Sameach later when I got older as Israel began to influence American Jewish life. The general holiday greeting was Gut Yontif. We also wished someone a kosher Pesach. I think Hasidim from Satmar would have been more likely to wish someone "a koshern in freilachn Pesach" or something similar. Multisingular is a bubbly young woman who has a UA-cam channel featuring the New York Hasidic Yiddish of her childhood. She says that at the end of Passover, the greeting is a gezinte zimmer (a healthy summer).
It’s interesting to me that in addition to the Hasidic communities, Brooklyn was also the home to the world headquarters of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. This insular group shares many similarities with their Hasidic neighbors but do shun former members who are excommunicated or leave on their own volition. Brooklyn is an interesting place! Thanks to both of you for this fascinating interview!
Jehovas Witness headquarters is in Utah.
@@erikkaelsbury8986 I think that you’re thinking of the Mormons. The Watchtower headquarters was on Columbia Heights just to the right when you got off the Brooklyn Bridge. They have since sold it and moved to Warwick, New York.
@@erikkaelsbury8986wrong! That’s the Mormans
Wonderful interview ❤
Wonderful content, subscribed.
Frieda, I live in Ohio where the largest gathering of Amish can be found as well as Mennonite (who do not believe in shunning). My daughter married a young man whose family is Apostolic Pentecostal that remind me much more of the Hasidic than the Amish. Men and women are separated physically during church services. Women always wear very modest dresses covering everything. They always wear a crocheted doily head covering at all times. There is no courting of couples. If a boy likes a girl he tells his pastor who speaks to her pastor, they decide if the couple are a good match. The first time they meet might be at the altar! They may work within general public, but there are no tv or radio, sometimes even computers at home. There are no secular toys or books in the home. This religious group really remind me of the Williamsburg group. Today's video is very interesting!!!
You might know I had a segment on Amish society. A lot of the customs Steven Nolt spoke of were very different from Hasidism and it surprised me. Your comment was very interesting. I never heard of the Apostolic Pentecostals and I am off to google. Did your son-in-law get shunned by his family for marrying, assuming, a non-church member (based on how you describe it)?
I am also Apostolic Pentecostal. I do not wear pants, have a TV, or cut my hair. We mix with society in general. Its deeper than outward appearance, which reflects the condition of the inner heart. We believe in the literal interpretation of the bible. Your hair is your covering, a veil is not needed. We do not shun, but neither does the bible recommend marrying an unbeliever.
@@vcrouch6041 Thank you for sharing! Can I ask what your attitude to the internet is?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn We do not suggest it under 18 years old, but use with discernment.
Its important to note that it is human nature to have some kind of preference / nostalgia in some form for the types of foods and flavors we grow up with. To me this is absolutely zero indication of a person wanting to reconnect to a culture they grew up with. If your parents bring you to mcd's every Friday then you will forever have a sense of nostalgia to those smells, flavors, and foods. Even if you hade the most miserable upbringing.
I really appreciate this interview. This is so much more authentic about the Ex-Hasidic community than the Hollywood versions that to me are too cartoonish. Even though you left your communities I actually find this much more positive toward those who left the community as well as those who stayed in the community. Awesome
Excellent interview. Thank you
Fantastic interview! So fascinating and nuanced.
This is " maturity"!❤🎉
Thanks
thank you so so much!
Freida I very much admire your compassion and respect for your culture in spite of the fact you have left.
❤️
I think the play Fiddler on the Roof makes us think of the family sitting shiva.. when the daughter married outside the faith.
If I recall, Tevya cuts Chava off altogether, but then at the very end, you see the mother (who we know runs the show) turn around and tell her where they will be in America.
Great interview!
As I was listening to you discuss the shunning narrative, I had a couple of thoughts on why this might happen besides what you had said. I left a high control Christian fundamentalist religion 10 years ago. In more fundamentalist Christian sects, this practice is wildly popular. In my southern Baptist sect, it was commonly accepted that if you allowed these people to continue to have contact with you, it will bring “ungodly things” upon them. So, there’s often a complete severance. I experienced this personally when I left. Further, In Midwestern Amish, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mennonite, and Mormon cultures this is also practiced. Having funerals or considering the person “dead” is coming. My grandfather left Jehovah’s Witnesses and converted to southern Baptistdom and his family had a literal funeral for him and the night they had a funeral his family came to plea for him to change his mind or never have contact again, he never had contact again. Often, to keep their places in the community it’s required to practice shunning because there can’t be any “Sin in the camp”. So, I wonder if some
Of the outside narrative is being further because many Americans who have experienced Christianity have seen this, and they can’t grasp that someone leaving a high control group would experience anything else. As a exfundie, I have often assume that when talking to people who have left high control groups, they do not have contact with their families, but I am trying to stop making that generalized assumption. I also, feel like in what I culturally know, seen, and lived is that it depends on the level of “sin” committed. For example, I’m a queer woman, married to another queer woman. This was the worst of the worst, so you’re treated differently than if say I had just gotten pregnant outside of being married. So, those types of things make a more convoluted difference. But, yeah, just some thoughts I had while watching that make me think a bit. I really enjoy your content, thanks for sharing!
The story of your father makes me sad.
You are right, I would guess, about why people assume Hasidim shun. Zalman touches on that too. I do think the Amish shunning experience is more complicated however. I did an interview with Steven Nolt and he explained some of the complexities.
Shunning is not practiced or condoned in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) church.
If you know of a family that has done this, they are not following the teachings of the church. We do not shun anyone! Jesus Christ never shunned people, and we are to be like Him as best we can.
@@98823rochelle That's good to know and also sad to know. I know several people in the local who were involved in local LDS communities. I agree that Jesus never shunned anyone, it's unfortunate how people have used the name of Jesus to create so many atrocities and to push agendas that I could not see him supporting.
I feel sad that this happened to him.😢🎉❤
Love your videos--thank you. I was raised sort of casually Reform--yet to this day, even the thought of eating milk and meat makes me nauseous! (And this is despite our going to non-Kosher restaurants when I was a kid)
Thank you for sharing❤❤❤❤
An amzing and informative interview. I love what he says about his parents. I think my grandmother would probably do the same going to certain homes. She isn't Jewish but a clean freak. Fyi her father was Jewish but he assimilated to the christian world. It bothers me but I love to learn about Judaism especially the different sects.
Wow I always learn from these interviews
All the Gedolim and leaders of the frum community, all of them are very strong in their opinion ,that you must keep a strong and loving relationship with the child that left.
I understand the draw to the customs and rituals. My family has been Catholic for hundreds of years. I was raised not overly religious, but I was raised Catholic. I don’t agree with many of the teachings and have never believed in God, but I’m still Catholic 🤷♀️
I do understand too.
Big fan of your videos. I will be taking a tour next time I’m in New York!
Both me parents crossed the pond, I will always be an, Irish Catholic.
I left the Roman Catholic Church at 15 years old. It was very strange as I had no real idea of alternative religions.
My older brother married a Jewish girl from a very secular family, yet she never mixed meat and dairy in a meal, nor ate pork.
Interesting. I wonder how common this is among secular Jews.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I can just tell you of another single episode that I witnessed. At our annual holiday party in the office, the young man who worked in the mail room, a totally secular Israeli, was enjoyed the good food. At some point, someone was talking about one of the spreads that was made of pork or ham and he suddenly realized what he had eaten and the horror of what he had just done was visible. The poor guy was shaken to his core. And, yes, he ran to the men's room...I guess to try to expel it from his body.
@FriedaVizelBrooklyn My grandmother was a kosher caterer in Stamford CT, but, if she put the forks in the wrong drawers, she didn't bury them in the yard; she just put them in the right drawer--whichever that one was. My father was actively non-religious. My exhusband was raised more religious than I. I am not affiliated with any Jewish Congregation. My kids had a Reform bar/bat mitzvah. Even the one cousin who is Orthodox (Lubavish) is not a person who pushes his religion on anyone else.
Baruch Spinoza was shunned in an official way. He was excommunicated (herem). Did his parents and other relatives cut off contact? What if Spinoza had been a modern day Satmarer from Williamsburg?
Good questions, I don't know.
Baruch Spinoza's community was the Portuguese Jewish Community of Amsterdam. Most of this community arrived in the Netherlands after having been formally converted to Roman Catholicism in Portugal by the Inquisition for a generation or two and "reverted" to Judaism once in Holland.
What a brilliant man!
I'll tell you something interesting. My family has been Reform since Reform started 200 years ago. I grew up eating everything. One of my favorite meals was my mother (Jewish) roast pork and homemade applesauce. I also loved raw oysters and cheeseburgers. Yet, as I got older not only did my taste change but I found that certain things didn't agree with me - like pork, like shell fish, like meat and milk/milk products together. At first I didn't realize it and just put it down to my delicate stomach, but finally I couldn't ignore it any longer. Now, where did that come from? Not from my mother or my grandparents. But it happened. DNA???
How about interviewing those who were raised not orthodox and became orthodox? I am baal tshuvah and it was not easy.
I can imagine. I've interviewed Sara Braun. Did you see that one?
Great job on this video and I think what you do is very important and helpful. It is a much more balanced view than we normally get of the hassidic culture and community and I really appreciate that.
My big pet peeve on most of the big media portrayals and even when I speak to individuals is that
(a) the whole issue is addressed as though the entire orthodox community or even the entirety of a specific sector of the community is one massive group who are all exactly the same and therefore they are spoken about as if they all think, say, act, feel the same way instead of each person emphasizing that it is their INDIVIDUAL experience and what they perceived with their individual insights within their particular individual interactions with the individuals they interacted with and really emphasize that fact. Once one starts to say "they all feel this way" no matter what group it is about, that is wrong. And if one were to do about certain other groups in our society, people would rise up against it,
and (b) it is an assumed given that living in the "outside" world is better, more "correct" way of living if you will, that it is more accepting of more things which is automatically also absolutely accepted as better or "more correct". I daresay that if a typical academic secular family were suddenly to have their child who they tried to infuse with their philosophy of education and a certain standard of living and to whom they gave what they thought were the best opportunities in life, if that child were to come home one day and say they decided to join the satmar sect, just as an example, because they find that life much more meaningful and beautiful...if that were to happen, I don't think the parents would be all that accepting right away either. (Just as an aside, I happen to know a family that was Jewish but very secular and all 3 of their children decided to become orthodox..not hassidic necessarily, simply orthodox and one went on to become a well-known doctor. However, the mother never made peace with it and bemoans the fact that they made this move even into her 90s! )
In that last case scenario (of the academic turning satmar), every set of parents would deal with that child and that jolt to their value system in their own very individual way. Some would handle it worse than others; some better. Why can we accept that but we cannot accept that orthodox people are also individuals and not just assume that if someone told their memoir (which obviously is told from a very subjective, rather than objective, place and could be totally flawed actually) then everything they say is taken as true and not just true, but true for the ENTIRE group bar very rare exceptions?
Great points! So much depends on the individual relationship. And the double standard is real! Many baalei teshuva were cut off completely from their secular family, cut out from wills etc and that is totally acceptable. As a side note, the more I learn about the secular world the more thankful I am for the beautiful and safe community we have built
Great comments. I think at the core, for me, it's not that I think it's cool for parents to offer conditional love, I just think it's human nature and we see it everywhere. People love to pretend that this happens only in insular worlds but I think the challenge of accepting children who turn out different from how we raise them is universal.
Zalman's remarks about college and partying reminded me of my college years at the University of Iowa in the 1970's. I was totally shocked and disgusted with what I saw. I had trouble finding a group of friends in the dormitory because I didn't drink, take drugs, or have sex. In those days you could drink at 18 years of age. The men's floor would have a party with kegs of beer and invite a girl's floor. The freshman girls would invariably say they don't drink beer. The boys would say "No problem" and offer them "punch" which was Everclear and Hi-C. The boys would wait for the girls drinking punch to be ready to pass out so they could take them back to the room. Many kids from small towns and farms had very restricted and conservative lives in High School but went wild in college. They had never studied or done homework in High School but college was different. They were shocked no one reminded them about their term paper. They were shocked when they realized they could actually be kicked out for failing grades.
Sounds like rape - pretty scary stuff.
I was called boring by my own sister because I was not interested in the same behaviors you named and preferred spending my time reading or watching TV as there were not opportunities to be introduced to other activities through lack of access or finances. I did end up being on my own a lot but as an independent woman who enjoys my own company, I'm more appreciative of that time.
I grew up Catholic and became a Christian when I turned 18. My Dad was a devout Catholic and he believed my choice meant I was going to go to Hell. It was a very painful process. He took my pictures out of his wallet and tore them up and said he had no daughter. He kicked me out of the house. My mother who was usually very timid stood up to him saying this is my house too. She let me stay. However, everything changed. If I walked into a room he was in, he got up and left. If I was in a room and he walked in, he would turn around and leave. For two months - he never spoke to me. This was even during Christmas. I had to move my spot at the dinner table. I used to sit next to him at dinner but he would get up. Then it was decided to eat together but I had to sit one seat over - away from him. I cried the night it happened but after that no more. I was never mad at my father - because I knew he was hurt, believing that I would go to Hell. He finally spoke to me as I was getting into a limousine ( my family and even my friends were afraid to help me be “off the path” (if I may borrow your phrase.) . My father took car privileges from me. I decided to move across country from New Jersey to Oklahoma. So I had to fly. No one would take me to the airport so I took a limousine. I said goodbye to my mother and left to go the limousine and my father came running out - to hug me goodbye and tell me he loved me. He still did not talk to me once I moved. I moved back for the summer as the roommate I had graduated from school and our lease ran out. During those 3 months I never got my original seat back at the dinner table but my father no longer left a room when I entered… and he started talking to me - though strained - he talked to me once again. He ended up walking me down the aisle in a park - not a church and our relationship changed for the good. My father also became a Christian 3 years before he died and he never went back to the Catholic Church except to be buried.
What? Catholics are the ORIGINAL Christians. I don’t get why Protestants insist on calling themselves “Christians” and excluding Catholics, who were the ONLY Christians for the first millennium of Church existence. The term “Protestant” is descriptive, not denigratory, and followers of Christ in those denominations were proud to identify themselves not that long ago.
@@jmj5388 : I can tell you that as a Catholic - I was not a Christian. I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from - but growing up Catholic- I personally was not a Christian. My dad wanted me to go to the Catholic Church on Nov. 2nd - a holy day of obligation- to pray to saints. Protestants do not pray to saints.
@@sandyblack4465 So you are a Protestant. No problem. It’s sad that your father is shunning and otherwise punishing you, which is not the behavior of any faithful Christian. Your decision to leave the Church must have hurt him very much. That he escorted you at your wedding is something, because, while they are not prohibited from attending a reception or party, Catholics are not to participate in non-Catholic wedding ceremonies of baptized Catholics. It saddens me to see family members drift away from the Church, but I just pray for them to return and leave the rest to the Lord, for it is He Who converts, but He still honors our free will. Peace to you.
I enjoyed the interview immensely I commend you on all your interviews they are really very objective and like to present things from both perspectives, I appreciate the fact even though yourself and the people that you interview were able to acquire all the skills needed to be able tp present such interviews I still think that you could have done so staying in your community and believing that Hashem does exist and its not a figment of our imagination and by staying in helping the communities grow in the areas that drove you to leave
its still very enjoyable to listen to your interviews, I appreciate your contribution and efforts thank you good luck to you
Chaya, all I can say is there are many people who stay and make the community a better place in their own ways, and I've always felt immense admiration for them.
Has Frieda ever said she doesn't believe in G-d?
This was very enlightening.
Not sure I would say I 'left' any religion, but I no longer attend religious services. I consider myself secular, yet I still believe in God.
It's hard for parents who believe that their children are putting their immortal souls at risk to simply accept a child's leaving the only path that - in their mind - guarantees eternal salvation; a path which has served them (the patents) so well and which they have tried their best to instill in their children; to accept that their child is rejecting what they see as the most precious gift that they have to give and the essence of all the wisdom they've accumulated throughout their lives. My father was devoutly Catholic. He grew up in a communist country and had questioned his faith deeply after he was incarcerated, tortured and almost killed when he was young for being a dissident during the Stalinist era, but after months of deep contemplation (and he was a brilliant man; a scholar of History and Philosophy with a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering - and fluent in 8 languages, etc.), he concluded that going back to his faith was the only right path for him and was devastated when I left Catholicism and embarked on my own path of exploration (during which I regrettably also had a brush with a sect, which I ended up leaving and blowing wide open) and then ended up immersing myself in Buddhism and finally finding a spiritual path of my own. It was not until he actually met the kind and also scholarly Buddhist Rinpoche whose lectures I'd been attending and had a long debate with him which led him to conclude that I would "be alright", that his mind was finally set at ease again, so it's hard for all concerned in such stories and I understand the parents' concerns - although the ones leaving do have it harder because they lose the greater part of the connections they had in the only community they've known until then. (Luckily not something I experienced, as Catholicism isn't as insular as some other fairhs, but I can imagine how it is for people leaving more closed communities.) Tolerance is the only way through such things though, and how they handle a person's leaving us, ino, a test of a person's and a family's and the whole community's maturity (and ultimately a teat if the value of the faith itself.)
An insightful, thought provoking interview! Thank you Frieda!
I'm curious, have you ever met/heard of Chavie Weisberger? She too is an ex-Hasidim, and her experience in and leaving the community was very negative (I saw her as a guest on a podcast where she talked about her experiences growing up Hasidic, and her journey out of it). Some of the topics Zalman talked about made me think of her, and I wonder if you'd be open to interviewing her if an opportunity arose
I do know Chavie - I've even enjoyed the interviews she's in. In general I try to limit my content on the "off the derech" story because I don't want to be that kind of channel. I have considered inviting Chavie to talk about her experience as a beloved teacher in a Hasidic girls' school - I think that would be interesting. The students adored her and she taught religion and faith - so she'd have a very interesting perspective.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Of course. Your channel, your space, your rules.
I was not aware of Chavie being a teacher at a Hasidic school (at least I don't recall it coming up in the interview I saw her in). I do hope she comes on your channel to talk about that experience. There's far more to her and her story than being ex-Hasidic
@@tamaratamtammorris8151 Yeah, I have to work up the courage to ask her. I know several people in the community who know her, her videos, and remember her time in the community very fondly.
Enlightening.
Woman! The book is a must, per your own desire to see more complex narratives.
Its important to understand that just as every every Hasidic exit story and continued family contact situation is very different--so is it for Amish exiters! Amish shunning is not universal, and each Amish exiter and their family have a different story. It's disingenous to assume that the Hasidic separation story varies, but the Amish separation story doesn't!
Such a good point!
Very interesting and informative excellent
This was a very interesting interview. Zalman is so articulate. Frieda--I'm new to your channel, and perhaps you have this information in a video I haven't seen. I would be very interested in hearing more about your personal journey--of course, only if and when you feel ok about sharing your experience. BTW, I'm a secular Jew, and do consider myself to be an atheist. I think that atheism and ageism are the two final frontiers where discrimination seemed to be part of the culture.
This is an excellent interview. I am a non-religious Jew, but still very culturally Jewish.
When I was a kid, we knew Joe Lieberman's family in Stamford, CT. They lived across the street. There were 3 Lieberman children. Joe was the oldest. My grandmother, the caterer at Aguduth Shalom, the Orthodox Synagogue in Stamford CT. She catered Joe's bar mitzvah & his parents' wedding.
Rietta, Joe's younger sister by 2 years, married a non Jew. We are talking in the 1960s. The Lieberman parents agonized over whether to sit shiva for Rietta. Finally, common sense prevailed and they accepted the marriage. The best I know they are still happily married & live in Oklahoma.
I think sitting shiva was a custom from the shetls of Eastern Europe. I have no personal experience with Hassidim.
I love your videos, Frieda.
I'm from Stamford, CT, too
Such a good episode. Will be purchasing his book.
I’m Canadian. Not religious at all. But I think many ppl in North America ‘see’ this sort of grey separation in the lives of immigrants who have come from non-western countries. How traditional or not traditional they continue to be in their new lives in the western world - often they may express it differently.
Also interesting is the self declared ‘hard break’ from a culture, family dynamic, etc. That if anything - is a link to the past. It’s not a natural progressive move from 1 way of life to another.
Def the concept of ‘expelled from xxx & cut off’ is sort of painted by Christian fundamental practices of certain churches. FLDS Mormonism, the Amish, etc.
The structure of a religious group, esp family structure likely encourages to some extend for those that have left - the remaining family to want to stay in touch.
As for the legal issues of child custody - it’s a little concerning. In Canada - the default for custody is shared physical and legal between the parents. If a judge awarded primary custody to the parent within the religious community only - it would def be looked down upon as favouring that side. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen here - but the concept of ‘what’s easiest for the child’ is no longer the primary goal. Our legal system is different tho.
"the self declared ‘hard break’ from a culture, family dynamic, etc. That if anything - is a link to the past."
Very interesting point
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn i have never experienced anything like it but makes me wonder - is there a better way of disentangling from a group? or is every situation different?
A very interesting conversation. I'm a gay ex-muslim (I say ex-muslim as a descriptor more than an identity) from a religious/'orthodox' family, and my exiting the religion was extremely turbulent. I was part of a grassroots group that helped/supported/brought visibility to exmuslims (then later other faiths), and got to know a lot of the narratives/people/politics 'behind the scenes' here in the UK. I often witnessed the initial (understandable) anger phase of leaving Islam/the community, but then for most people this strong resentment/attachment to being an ex-muslim as a sole identity subsides, but for a few this is double downed on. Relationships with family are very often strained and in many cases become minimal/non-existent, but in most cases it is nothing like that, and often has a two-way component - it's hardly ever the hollywood dramatic story arc that people on the outside, or even exmuslims themselves, expect (not to say it never happens, but there are often other complicating factors). I could also say the same about gay coming narratives in general. I now have an amicable (albeit strained) relationship with my parents, even if it took a while for both of us to grow, though things are now totally fine with my siblings. I also found the point about the religion itself creating the impetus to leave interesting, as I was a very pious believer. Commitment to learning how to interpret the quran/tradition and valuing a commitment to truth (without intercessors) was deeply ingrained in me, which led me to my own historiographic interpretation and truth, but also values like not readily cutting ties with family.
If there is one thing that I have truly learnt, it's that religion, identity, family... and just life, is complex/long and our relationships with our families/ourselves always evolve in the most unexpected ways that I can pretty much guarantee never fits into any clean narrative.
The idea that exiting narratives can also sometimes be pushed/inflamed by outside(/media/political) actors resonated deeply with me, and I have seen/felt firsthand how this narrative can even be internalized by the exitor themself before/after leaving (even against their own actual experience). I especially see this lately where there is an increasing pressure(perhaps clout) to fit into an idealized/sensationalized reactionary ex/anti-muslim narrative, with exmuslims' experiences being exploited by them (sometimes facilitated by exmuslims themselves) for nefarious/self-serving reasons, but also often innocently, especially when there are some uncritical parts of (I don't like this term but...) 'progressive/woke' circles that refuse to acknowledge the real trauma exmuslim exitors go through, leaving some exmuslims especially in their 'anger phase' more open to being exploited.
There are also quite a few differences that I have noticed that I would be interested to get another perspective on - about the differing extents it is meaningful/possible to be an ex-muslim/'ex-'jewish. As Islam is foundationally a belief-based religion (with an associated practice), one is no longer a muslim as soon as you don't believe, but often exmuslims (like myself now) residually identify (by choice or not) with some aspects of being a muslim to the extent it was their upbringing, affinity for certain holidays/traditions, and given names/appearances which mean they will still be perceived as a muslim by outsiders. Calling myself an 'ex-'muslim can feel both too extreme, but also meaningless, though no other terms seem to fit any better. From my understanding of Judaism there is also an ethnic component, and secular (or conservative, or reform) Jewish cultures that exist, where even an 'atheist' or reform/secular jew can still be seen in a certain/minimal way as halachically/authentically/meaningfully jewish by the orthodox/other jewish people/the outside. Judaism's/Jewishness' combination of religious, cultural, and ethnic elements seems to allow for a broader spectrum of Jewish identity, which is more able to accommodate secular or atheist Jews who maintain a connection to their Jewish heritage to different degrees, in a way that is still understood. But this simply isn't the case in Islam, where as much as I may think a more accurate description of myself would be as a cultural/secular/atheist muslim (though even these don't really fit), this would be inconceivable/incomprehensible to most muslims (esp. orthodox) and has no real meaning (except ultimately as apostasy) given the lack of there being any secular 'muslim' culture/ethnicity/heritage in the same way. This isn't to say that being being seen as e.g. poshea/meshumad/kofer/mumar l'hakh can not be religiously/socially grave, just that there also seems to exist possible halakhic/ethnocultural alternatives of understanding apostasy, unlike Islam.
Then there is also the differing relationship to diaspora given Islam was never conceived/forged as a community/religion/tradition learning to survive and adapt in diaspora, rather there is doctrinal dislocation/rigidity and psychological/cultural instability/insecurity within muslim diasporic communities (like my own in the UK) in understanding what it means to be a muslim/your ethnicity/culture, especially in the case of non-arab muslim identities. Without the more localised/community centric approach to religious practice, it's also often the case that extremist muslims are given a disproportionate voice, simultaneously by the saudi/wahabbi homogenization of islamic communities, and by the anti-muslim reactionaries that give those extremists more power/attention to influence/define islam, which then translates to the community within (especially in a european ethnic minority diaspora context where communal religious tradition and learning has broken down, where the community feels under threat by very real racism/bigotry, and given an implicit arab/non-arab hierarchy)
I guess this is all to say that there is something particularly beautiful/humanistic in (broader) Jewish culture in its wrestling with/accommodating human complexity/identity/belief/practice and adapting to local circumstances, that I'm not sure could ever be overcome within Islam, perhaps making islam/ex/muslims more prone to instability.