Reminds me of Dr. Jackson Crawford had a video talking about history you can learn from the Norse Sagas about how Norse people may have lived with some of the details about there culture and daily life but then basically explains (I’m paraphrasing) , “remember these were for entertainment the main characters are larger then life they are smarter, more handsome, more amazing then anyone else is or possibly could be and deal with great adventure constantly to compare them to the actual lives of the people during the Viking age it’s romanticized stories by there great great great grandchildren, it would be like judging average life for someone in 2011 by the main characters in fast and the furious 4”
@@helenamcginty4920I believe a lot or most do know it’s just when we type fast we go to there because we use it more and it’s out of habit. That’s the case for me anyways .
I love myths for the meanings i can find and apply to my own life. I feel like trying to create a scientific basis for myth takes away from that. I cant pretend to fully understand the original audiences perspective, but theres a lot you can learn about yourself through other peoples stories (real or not) and seeing the things that people found important in ancient times like family, friends, and love, art, music, intelligence, passion, honor, determination, courage, loyalty, work and play, its beautiful to see how much we all have in common. Through gods and monsters other worldly adventures it reminds me of what it means to be human. And the troubles and beauty we all face whether its today or 2000 years ago.
"How much history is in myth" is a complicated little number. As always, David has broken it down into something we can all understand. I want to take this opportunity to thank all who work on this channel....you are all in the credits...and you gals n guys Rock !.....peace to ya.
It really depends on the myth we’re talking about. Historical Events are often Mythologized, for example the Three Kingdoms Period of China is an event that we have fairly decent documentation on, but also there’s a ton of Apocryphal Stories about Figures from the Time Period that include Supernatural events. Even Events from the Late 19th century have undergone elements of Mythification either because there are certain gaps in the historical record, or uncited Apocryphal elements being repeated enough time that most people take the stories at face value. Granted most stories are likely entirely or almost entirely made up, either as sort of an morality tale or some sort of propaganda. Like there might have been an actual King named Beowulf that the epic is based on, but pretty much everything was made up by his descendants to make Beowulf more impressive of a Ruler to legitimize their own reign.
The Trojan War too, that was heavily mythologized in the intervening several centuries between its likely occurrence and its recording in the Epic Cycle. I know that many historical details were preserved (chariot warfare, certain styles of weapons and armor, certain religious/cultural practices, all of which had long since been abandoned by Greek culture by the time anything got written down), and I would be shocked if some of the events didn't occur in some way resembling the events of the epics, but gods and demigods are also in the story, now directly intervening in the affairs of mortals than at almost any other time in the entirety of Greco-Roman mythology. Of course, Ireland forms an interesting contrast, where the existing mythology got flattened down into legends and folk tales, or in the case of a lucky (or unlucky) got reanalyzed as saints.
I'm not trying to argue here..but, I didn't know that there was a time in Chinese history known as 'the Three Kingdoms'. I am aware that it's a rather well-known period in the Korean peninsula that's generally known as the period of the Three Kingdoms. Was it perhaps this that you meant? Or, if not - when was this time in Chinese history? Just curious, that's all. Edit: Looked it up now - and I saw that both China AND Korea had a time-period, known under the same name. Just to let you know. ;-) Cheers.
Those are legends tho, not myths. Though with Chinese epics there isn't a fine line where the legend of general Guan Yu stops and the myth of god Guan Gong begins.
An overarching, yet such a simplistically explained world view. It explains so many conceptualizations that have been floating on the borders of myth, legend and history and helps endow them with a meaning that is realistic enough for us to rationally consume them. From Midas and Helen of Troy to The Queen of Sheba, Vikramaditya, Robin Hood, Sindbad and Alice - many of us have believed that these people existed or had a historical basis or reference point but examining their historicity without disturbing their relevance to our lives is part of our own essential "growing up" journey. Thanks for enlightening us.
Alice Liddel was a real person. A young girlt o whom the stories were first told to amuse her. (Similar to AA Milne's Winnie the Pooh's Christopher Robin, and the Darling siblings from Peter Pan). Not that she actually fel down a rabbithole, or stepped through a mirror, but the character in Lewis Caroll's stories is intended to be her, originally, placed in an imaginary environment, that also, like in the movie version of The Wizzard of Oz later, has elements in it rooted in Miss Liddel's reality that she would recognize in the story. Robin Hood in his most modern tales , like Scott, Greene, and Disney, is a combination of several historical persons, and rural legendary and foloklore elements, similar to Arthur. Most of the rest are indeed lost in the mists of time to be verified,and Sinbad can be considered as fully fictional. All these stories and characters have relevance to our lives, but they have very different origines and purposes, so let us not assumethey are all basically the same.
Dr david miano Please give us a video about Sumerian and babylonian creation story Lots of arguements going around about that Please upload a video soon Thanks
The healthiest way to look at myths from what I have read is to take value them through the lends of anthropology. There's a lot that can be studied based on the cultural developments of myths. Syncretism, heritage and shared myths build an interesting family tree over the world that researchers can piece together several things of a given society and peoples. I particularly like how Middle Eastern myths and legends have evolved so much over multiple influences over the years that mapping it out is like viewing their history as ever lasting. I think that rarely a culture is lost, seems that it is absorbed and transformed into something new.
The well-known mechanism of the 'TELEPHONE GAME', which is capable of distorting both written and recorded sources, but also dances, mantas, rituals or even drawings, in barely a dozen transmissions. As Experiments by Bartlett, Allport and Postman, Loftus and Palmer showed, stories ADAPT TO each CULTURE, they are simplified, SHORTENED and RATIONALIZED (bias and motivated reasoning) to fit into that time specific beliefs or knowledge. Only in the presence of Religious fascination have certain motifs and patterns been able to survive identically in such distant cultures without contact. As a professional you must know how it works and why humans anthropomorphise. Religions have gone from polytheistic to monotheistic, leaving gods with undisguised solar attributes. We anthropomorphise to understand things according to our beliefs. Furthermore, the desire for social contact (might contact have been lost at some point in time?) tends to anthropomorphization; being the isolated individuals more prone to it. It can be elaborated that God comes from humans (made in the image of man), in light of our emotions and moral.
Perhaps it's a simplistic interpretation, but I always thought of myths as a "window" to seeing the world through the eyes of ancient peoples. They might not tell you much about factual history, but they might tell you a lot about what different peoples valued at different times. For instance, I have always found it interesting that in Norse Mythology, humor seems play a central role in most stories. Odin is a trickster god, Thor dresses in drag to get his hammer back and when Baldir becomes Invulnerable, the Aesir pass time by throwing stuff at him. Why? Perhaps because the Vikings lived in a harsh and dark environment, and myths with funny plots could make those freezing winters easier to get through. Or perhaps because Norse myths served more as entertainment than education.
Read the story told at the feast in Heorot to celebrate Beowulf's killing of Grendel. In fact read the whole thing. I have it in Old English but also in Seamus Heaney's translation which I recommend. Its great fun.
This reminds me of a college professor I took a few classes from years ago. He brought up the sword in the stone Excalibur myth. He posed the hypothetical that the origin could be a sword forge from a nickel iron meteorite. The sword in the stone. I have applied thoughts like that to mythology ever since.
The thing about the flood narratives is this: we have plenty of archeological and geological evidence that colossal floods occurred in places where human beings had settled. Not just one flood, but many and we know the underlying reason was that the glaciers were melting. I have to feel that the prevalence of flood myths in the various writings of various cultures had to be informed, to some degree, by actual human experience. I’m not basing my belief in floods on myth - I’m basing it on geology and archeology; but, as you said, mythmakers try to explain the unknown in terms of the known. Floods, huge ones, were things they actually knew.
_" we know the underlying reason was that the glaciers were melting"_ We also know that what you just asserted as fact is not, in fact, factual. Flood myths arise from sufficiently "dramatic" events - catastrophic, with mass devastation. Everywhere you've known your entire life is suddenly chest-deep or worse in water. Buildings crumble, people are dead or displaced, croplands are ruined. Disease and starvation become rampant. It is effectively the end of the world (you know). During the period of time you're referring to, the younger Dryas, the sea levels never rose more than 60mm *per year.* Not sudden. Not catastrophic. Not devastating. Definitely not dramatic. In short, nothing that could be woven into a legend.
Yes there is geological evidence of floods in the planet's history = okay.... - so what. What matters is not if floods occurred. What matters is = what if any evidence exists to show whereby those floods impacted human civilization in some way and to what extent. Absent such connective evidence you are left with "floods happened" = and lots of assumptions. As an aside. In so much as man requiring water subsequently is compelled to build his communities in proximity to water then yes he can sometimes be impacted by floods which can be passed down in his lore. To try to assert however that a civilization was supposedly wiped out by some undefined "flood" and use that as a rationale to avoid the reality that no real evidence exists to show said civilization was actually real - to say nothing of having been destroyed by some flood = is pure fiction representing stereotypical "arguing from ignorance". It is the archeological equivalent of: _"the dog ate my homework."_ It would be like me claiming meteors struck our Moon 10K years ago and that caused the Earth's axis to shift wiping out a civilization in Australia. So I am taking a completely unrelated event and using that to justify what is an assumed civilization which is further assumed to have been "lost" = ergo assumptions about assumptions - at which point Occam's kicks in. That is not then basing upon knowns as you say = it is the reverse. It is arguing based upon assumed unknowns - hence arguing from ignorance.
This comes up in art history as well. You can't separate art from the cultural context & time period it was created. For instance, during the Middle Ages/ Renaissance it was common to depict Biblical characters in contemporary clothing (to the Renaissance or Middle Ages) & place those characters in European settings. It doesn't mean the people from biblical times wore Renaissance style clothing or that Jesus was actually born in Italy in the 1500s or that the people who made the art believed that.
Hey mate, the guy over at Uncharted X is having Graham Hancock on his show tomorrow to explain why it's important to have an "alternative" view of history. You have got to have a look and comment.
Great video! This topic has always been fascinating to me; the border between legend and history is alluring. We want legends to be true because it’d be awesome. I love the new thumbnail; it did, in fact, lure me in. Thank you for all your work.
Just a couple easy questions for you, Dr. Miano. How does one study the history of a society if that society has an esoteric or strictly clerical writing systems, or even a lack of a writing system all together? Where does pre-history end and historical record begin for those societies, if at all? I'm working under the assumption that Eurasia had a unique geographical "connectedness" that allowed for wider dispersion of technology including writing systems compared to tall and skinny continents such as Africa and the Americas (a la Guns, Germs, and Steel). Are writing systems of ancient civilizations more commonly developed independently or borrowed and adapted (leading to wider adoption in very well connected parts of the world)? Are they necessary for a society to be complex and technologically advanced (such as the case with the Mississippians in North America) or have there been other novel ways societies have organized to lessen the impact of lacking the written word?
If a society has no written records, it is out of the realm of history. In that case, archaeology will probably serve best. A society doesn't necessarily need writing to be organized, but they certainly would need some form of record-keeping. Most writing systems were borrowed from earlier or neighboring cultures, but there are some that were developed independently.
@@WorldofAntiquity thank you so much for your response and for clarifying the difference between historian and archaeologist. I've found that confusing since I've been learning more about ancient history recently. I'm sure it's not news to you but you can appreciate how the waters can get muddy at the dawn of civilizations :-) speaking of myth and history, reading myth through a single framework seems... arbitrary. Can't myths be read as "all the things" at once? Like a jambalaya contains sausage, shellfish, vegetables, spices, and herbs, but it is not one of those things. Different people add things to the pot with the final product being a collection of parts AND additionally parts coming from the interaction between the parts and belonging to the community.
Do a response on Bright Insight's video he uploaded today. He is suggesting that this artifact called the Nubian Egg depicts Atlantis and the Giza Pryamids. He also discusses wood that was found in the Giza Pyramids that is older than them
Brings up Image thinking. I've always considered myths as a form of poetic memory palace. John Verveake seems to have a good understanding of myth and it's purpose. When the Bible was handed out for everyone to read and interpret for themselves, thanks Luther, people felt compelled to take things in those myths literally. Then extended that concept to Greek and other myths, believing that a myth was something the dumb people way back when tried to use to understand natural phenomenon. It's taken a few hundred years for academics to move away from that position and consider myths as something other than lame explanations.
Great video, Dr. Miano. Goes to show that many alternative theories are a form of literalist fundamentalism. I like the part where you point out the selectivity of highlighting some parts of a mythology while ignoring others. The Lost Civilization theorists ignore, for instance, what Ovid says about the Golden Age. It was not a time of advanced civilization, but a time before laws, agriculture, sea travel, weaponry and fortification ( Metamorphoses 1:90-127). Martin Lings states, "In looking back to the past, [our ancestors] did not look back to a complex civilization but to small village settlements with a minimum of social organization; and beyond these they looked back to men who lived without houses, in entirely natural surroundings, without books, without agriculture, and in the beginning even without clothes. It would be true then to say that the ancient conception of early man, based on sacred scriptures and on age-old traditional lore handed down by word of mouth from the remote past, was scarcely different, as regards the bare facts of material existence, from the modern scientific conception, which differs from the traditional one chiefly because it weighs up the same set of facts differently." (Ancient Beliefs and Modern Superstitions. 3rd ed. 1991, pp. 6-7).
Stories are shortened, not lengthened. Greeks regarded Babylonian myths as Trustworthy, Romans gave less credence to them, but absorbed Greek's ones as their own. Middle Age people progressively changed their faith into Christianity and Islam and "“History became legend. the legend became myth. And they missed some things they shouldn't have forgotten. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring vanished from all knowledge." (Tolkien).
@@WorldofAntiquity Sure? I thought it was real 🤣 Massive amounts? I also have massive amounts. F. Bartlett 1932 Remembering - A study in experimental and social psychology; Loftus and Palmer (1974)_Reconstruction of Automobile Destruction; Allport and Postman 1947 Psychology of rumor (I think); Social Contagion of Memory_ Katya Terra... There's more but anycase a lot of details get invented of course, others suppressed.
I recall that as a teenager I was told a story about WWI soldiers witnessing a battle line of armored holy knights on horseback holding back a german assault. At that age I was somewhat more gullible than I am now and I took it as a real and impressive event. My question is how widespread or long lasting does such a story have to be to count as a myth? Is it just a tall tail propaganda or a modern myth?
Over the weekend my dad said “those lost history guys aren’t really posting videos anymore…”. I told him they kinda had their bubble burst by a bunch of younger professors and archaeologists who basically answered the “who cut this? / who built that?” questions they had. With questions answered the mystique kinda went away. The Giza Pyramids ARE tombs, Atlantis is as fictional as Windrixville and the Romans built the Temple of Jupiter. He then said “there is a lot of misinformation out there, huh?” Not as much as there used to be!
I love that post, and you are correct in all you say. We need people like David to dispel the quite frankly ridiculous and endless silly theories about our ancient past.....with evidence. Something alternative theorists are lacking on. Khufu was responsible for the great pyramid, the Romans built Baalbek (with the help of some enslaved Entrucians)...all the evidence tells us this....end of conversation.
Atlantis story is not a myth it is just a version of krishna s lost kingdom dwarka which turned into Atlantis with time as we know. Good news is that dwarka has been found.
Romans did not built the temple of jupiter it was Jews who built it because the main god of Romans was mitra mentioned in rigveda so Romans used to follow maitrism.
I heard a young African traditional storyteller discussing his art on a radio programme some time er.... before last week. He took it as read that he would embellish his traditional tale in his own way. As his father and grandfather had before him. So the idea I was taught by those instilled with the idea that traditional story tellers (in the 1960s invariably Native American) somehow preserved their stories unchanged over the generations is probably not true. (This was also the era of Eric thingy's Chariots of the Gods) I always wondered how they either knew this as a fact or could even do it.
They say that looking into the past is like looking into a foreign country: some things will strike you as weird at times and it takes careful research to get a better understanding. Funnily enough the same can also be true about the future. That's why when I wrote my sci-fi book series The Godsend Epic I went to great lengths to make it feel as though it read like history, much like how George R.R. Martin took inspiration from world history in shaping the various cultures in A Song of Ice and Fire. That way, if the sci-fi setting was to look back at our era, it would feel like visiting a foreign country from their standpoint and some of our modern customs would strike them as weird at times.
Excellent and interesting as usual prof. Miano. And myths and legends are 'right up my alley', although I love them for their own sake...that is without any particular interest as to which degree they correspond to 'reality'. But as our literary legacy, purely. (Although, you can often discern at least to a certain degree how they were thinking and what they considered important and so on). I saw recently that you had made a video on the Buddha - which I'm going to check out next. But, still - I wonder what you're thinking about the accuracy of so called 'sacred'/religious texts, at least when it comes to the teachings and alleged sayings of the founder/important persons? (In particular within the Hindu and Buddhist religions. Since I've seen quite many YT-videos and docus where they show that they 'pass on' these texts already to young boys who 'must' learn to recite them to the letter. Where they all recite them together, at the same time - and therefore is supposedly easy to spot if/when anyone get a word wrong [or even syllable], both for the individual itself, but also for the others who at least sits close to him, as well as the 'teacher'. And I've seen that this 'style' of learning large chunks of texts is utilized amongst both young Brahmin boys, as well as within Buddhist monasteries. And have also read a book written by a Swede who went to Thailand to become a Buddhist monk - who described that they were reciting at least rather large parts of the 'most important texts' containing the Buddhist Teachings, EVERY morning and night!). Otherwise, I agree 100% that all myths and legends are embellished and further added to, at least under several centuries - or perhaps for as long as they were purely orally transmitted. After all - they weren't concerned with historical accuracy, as we might be today. It was about telling an interesting, enchanting story, describing a time when 'the Gods' roamed the Earth or telling a precautionary tale, about questions concerning 'ethics', etc... Oh sorry, I'm just rambling on here. I was just wondering about what you thought about the accuracy of the text transmitted in the two religions mentioned above. (not saying there isn't more traditions like that - but that's the two ex. I know). -But, I realize this post is likely to drown either amongst all the other posts - or, within merely my own sea of words...but, as I've written this much already I might as well post it! ;-)
thank you for discussing this topic in detail and driving home the point of looking at ALL the evidence, including context, and not just trying to grab random myths from different time periods in order to bolster a theory or narrative. I have a question, though (that might warrant a future video): how do historians know that any written account is true? Like if we find a single Sumerian tablet that says "I am so-and-so, and I am the wealthiest man of my day and own all this land and this is the year I am writing this" - can we take that at face value? Or do we need corroborating tablets that also make mention of that person and him/her being so wealthy? Is there a kind of "magic formula" for when we can be "relatively certain" that something is true and not just a fabrication? In statistics, there is kind of a "stastistically significant" number that most scientists agree needs to be met in order for the evidence to be considered "convincing". I'd imagine if multiple accounts from multiple civilizations who did interact with each other all said the same thing, then it's likely to be true. But what if it's only from a singular civilizaiton, and only one or two accounts? Or how much value do second or third-hand accounts have? Like we have a few writings of the ancient Egyptians (namely Cheops/Khufu) who claim they built the pyramids, and then I think only one other account some years later from a Greek visitor who wrote that "the Egyptians told me that their old pharaoh Cheops built the pyramids", but does that evidence really count, since it's still just from the Egyptians and not even first-hand? I'd just love to know to what degree historians and achaeologists debate evidence before accepting it, and what it generally takes to get them to change their minds. PS thanks to you I'm no longer on the ancient advanced civilization train, but this is something that still bothers me. Like if in 1,000 years a future civilization finds our National Enquirer or Breitbart articles and think that's really the truth. Or maybe in 50 years some tyrant takes over the world and burns all books and destroys all computers and rewrites histor to make it look like he or his people were responsible for the Statue of Liberty. How would future civilizations know that his account is not true? Especially if the dates work out within an acceptable margin of error?
@@WorldofAntiquity thank you! I've been slowly going through all your videos since discovering the channel a few months ago, so it's slow going. Maybe I should just start at the beginning?
Watched this video a second time today and had previously viewed and liked it. Too bad I can't like it twice. Processing ideas, history or knowledge is an art. We often just use the same patterns of logic in our thinking and never really get "out of the box" to use a cliche. I can always count on your videos to give me that out of the box perspective and a new thought pattern. Thanks, Dr. Miano.
The story of Orion and the seven sisters must be a very old myth, and it must have been very tangible to those who told it first. Maybe someone at the time had a glimpse of what we now know, but they couldn't describe this glimpse in words so this was their best way. Also, it must have been a good story to tell at the camp fire before everybody went to bed.
How would you explain the difference between myths and religions? I’ve thought The ancient myths are like their religions, since about their gods and explanations about creation and why life is how it is.
I think of the legends of HH Holmes. There was no doubt he was a serial killer, but to accredit every disappearance during the 1893 Chicago World's Fair to him is a bit of a stretch... though many documentaries do.
This has been a very interesting video! I always wondered about many of those old myths. I'm glad you covered this. 😁 Oh, but you'd have gotten my like, anyway, just for the Star Trek clip, LOL!
The other thing is its hard to know what is completely fictionalized, even in legends as opposed to myths. The Trojan war was up in the air as to whether it was a real conflict or something invented, until we found the ruins, should we use legends and maybe even myths to try and find new evidence like the what happened with Troy?
This is the kinda history I like, the truth behind myths, stuff like Troy or the preposed theories behind some mythical beasts being early attempts at identifying fossils
Yes, for understandig (traditional) myths, it is crucial to realize that in former times the concept of rationality was not developed, and the knowledge about the world was very small. Therefore, descriptions were rather magic or superstitous (from our modern perspective), and contradictions were nothing conspicuous for these most ancient peoples. I would say that they literally believed their myths (contrary to your statement), but "literally" not with a rationalistic approach. Hesiod was the first to "sort" myths, i.e. to begin with a rationalistic approach to eliminate contradictions. -- Atlantis is quite a different thing. Two phenomena concerning "myths" must be understood to approach the Atlantis enigma: (a) What happened when the more rational Greeks arrived at Egypt and started to learn about Egyptian myths (the wrong idea of an age of Egypt of 11,000+ years comes from this clash of two concepts). (b) The concept of "Platonic Myths", about which I wrote a whole book: "Platonische Mythen - Was sie sind und was sie nicht sind", just recently in 2021. O yes, it's complicated.
Interesting idea. But because we have records from the time, and the earlier ones do not portray him as God, we have more reason to believe that divine attributes were added to his story over time. The embellishments can be traced.
@@WorldofAntiquity Do a video on that. I think Bart Ehrman wrote a book called "how jesus became god", though I havnt read it (read some of his). Sounds like a really intresting topic and would be a case study in mythologising, which seems to be one of your intrests. I think people would like it as a topic. Great videos.
What do you know about the supposed cocaine mummies and did ancient Egyptians have access to plants that would have produced a similar effect to tobacco or cocaine?
Not sure what a fact is myself. But I do think a story can be lots of things including a memory peg or as measuring sticks. Some journey stories have lots of detailed information but made sense only if you see the landmarks. Maybe the landmarks are consistent. Then there are the characters and how they solve problems and so you see the ideology of the people in the breath of their stories. Rapunzel I believe is about growing lettuce. We don’t always remember the purpose of the original stories and there lies the rub.
To understand the distant past it is often critical to either have some direct documentation - or else enough physical evidence to allow for "observational analysis" leading to plausible explanations. The problems with contemporaneous or subsequent accounts however as alluded to is that people back then did not necessarily verify what they recorded. Thus what was likely mythological/local lore was merely written down prima facie and accepted as "history". So the key as always is to try to verify what was claimed against what do we see. As an example. Herodotus is colloquially referred to as _"the father of history."_ Yet some things he recorded are obviously mythological in nature - while other things have been corroborated via archeological/historical evidence. Finally the problem of oral history is a constant. For no other reason than the way our brains store memories such oral telling of history over time can come to develop "variance". Thus it is not so much as the teller is "exaggerating" as owing to how their brains stored the information details can be lost. Think eyewitnesses and a crime scene. Police when interviewing multiple people who saw the same event can come up with variations of what was claimed to be seen. So it is not that the witnesses are lying per se as their brains simply processed what was observed a bit differently resulting in variation of the telling. Moral of the story: during the Cold War countries would say = _"trust - but verify."_ So in considering historical sources one should say that certain ones show to have a good track record - BUT - one should also always try to verify when and where possible. As far as the "alternative" schtick they as noted make a habit of trying to cast what are myths as purported "possibilities". One can if they twist facts and logic enough portray almost anything as purportedly "possible" = but that does not necessarily mean it is therefore "likely". The way to discern between the two is to follow the credible evidence wherever it leads. What the "alternative" schtick peddles is more Hollywood than actual history. 🤨
Or we can believe every myth until proven untrue, without a doubt, to each of our satisfactions. Even if the myths are contradictory! Just as Stargate now explains all the Egyptian myths.
I am home in England, it is around 90 degrees, i have a day off and might get a chance to watch this when it premieres for once. How much truth is in myth ?.....it will be interesting to find out.
Hi there professor, I was wondering if we could get your take on the Antikythera mechanism--the one ancient artifact which seems to stun and puzzle even the world of straightlaced academia. I've seen a number of good, in-depth videos about it here on UA-cam which describe how archaeologists were able to ingeniously solve most of its mysteries, but there's still a number of questions about it that remain including what its actual purpose was (it seems to be an astronomical calendar/calculator, but what for?), who owned it, and if there were any other mechanisms like it or that led to it (it seems impossible to believe that the highly sophisticated artifact was invented out of nowhere, manufactured just once, and then disappeared just as quickly). Also, I saw in one clip where they were attempting to create a reconstruction of the mechanism using only the tools the Greeks were known to have used at the time, but it is proving challenging since many of the ultrafine gears of its interior parts would normally require much finer tools than those ancients had. So it's definitely a mystery. What are your thoughts on this thing? Do you think there may have been others like it around that we just haven't found yet? Was it an educational tool or a rich man's plaything? And why do you think the technology was lost? Given that the Greeks were just starting to experiment with steam power, is it possible they were actually on the cusp of an industrial revolution? Anyways, I would love your thoughts on this. PS the beard looks fantastic!
It would be an interesting topic for a video, for sure! I don't know if you are familiar with this website, but it has some great stuff: www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/
Such a frustrating question because my gut tells me tons. Almost certainly, in one way or another, all of it has some placement in historical events But I seems impossible to tease out the literal from the figurative, from the metaphor, the idiomatic. Surely nobody met he gods, but maybe someone did _sonething_ at some time that was worth being remembered. If historians eons from now dig up artifacts about a thousand yea empire in Germany or a 10,000 empire in Japan, there is some truth there to be found. But without context and understanding you can’t find that truth that these were jus the aspirations of real people, not observed realities.
Life is hard, it always has been but, now we name our children at birth as we have developed expectations of their survival. Of course that means the forest is hunted out and there is always a Q to get into the cinema.
Was the name Gobekli Tepe found on the T shape granite . Or did Dr. Kraus or historians coined the word Tepe to denote an early civilisation or first time or first occasion?
In two or three millennia, future alternative-history types will be making videos about how DC and Marvel heroes must have been based on a real people.
Perhaps I missed it but I would very much like to see your approach applied to the stories of the Bible. Particularly the archeological story of how and why the stories came about. In particular the local revolution where all the priests of the various gods were part of the old order and therefore a bigger all powerful God was needed to call out the old priests as tools of the old powers ( but kept God's wife around) and built a much more egalitarian society until they were conquered and taken to Babalon only to be later released back home. Icannot but think that no matter how homogeneous the folk were as conquered they would not be when they got back and in an effort to unify those people the first "bible" was written down drawing a lot from Babalonian myths like Gilgamesh but no longer praising the dangerous idea of revolution instead created the Exodus and invasion and conquest in its place. I have had a tough time piecing this together and much is vague and just who wrote down the stories as a job description if unknown actual name and the role that religion has played as a mechanism in societys of unification, oppression, conjob, and attempts through metaphor to pass on very difficult concepts of intention often boiled down to good and evil but far more nuanced than that. Exploring that last part has been the focus of my own motives.
Oh crap J, i thought it was today....your post made me realise it is days away. I will be back at work so will miss the premier 😟....oh well, i will catch up up with it when i can.
Also wondering, could fragments of tales about historical ancient people and events have become embellished via oral tradition into legendary or religious characters/events, but then utilized/transformed to become characters and parts of stories used in myths (elevating pieces of what was once embellished bits of real people and events) and then using them in myths that are actually distorted or totally changed tales to describe phenomenons of nature (making it a myth). In other words, historical names, people, events - turned somewhat legendary through years and years of oral tradition - then re-purposed and re-formed into elements and persons in an actual myth which is only a literary or religious explanation of nature or the unknown world?
Sort of a related question! Did any ancient writers or historians reference the stone age? I'm curious about how much ancient people knew about their own deep past. I know that they wouldn't have thought of it as "the Stone Age", but how did they think of it? Was there a sense of people living in a different way than they had in the past that was more grounded than the golden age-silver age-bronze age story or the Garden of Eden story, or was a sort of narrative about the deep past embedded in those myths somehow? Are there any accounts of the changes in tools and social structures as time went on? I know that in Lucretius book 6 there’s a portion about early humans wearing raw skins and being hunted by animals before discovering fire and beginning to hunt the animals that had eaten them, and then learning how to work with wood and bronze and iron. But maybe that’s more of a myth than an attempt to explain the past?
The ancients had no conception of a Stone Age. But they did set stories far in the past, which would have coincided with the Stone Age. They just don't describe it as such.
Would those stories have been set at some point in the past as a storytelling device, or would they have been referring to a real event? I know that things like the Trojan War were probably based on real events, but how do we tell when a story is referring to an event that happened thousands of years before even that?
Thanks for another great mythbuster Dr Miano, always refreshing to hear a rational, reasoned and well informed voice in the cacophony of jabbering tin foil hatters!!
Well, Mythology is more useful for the personal and social understanding of a people rather than historical events. They are cycles of fate (social processes) that humans are forced to live through. It will help you understand history by understanding the people and their actions but not as historical facts. The Legend of Zahak for instance. ( It is as if our ancestors have traveled to the future and made this story based on today's situation of Iran...) This legend shows how Iranian behave and how social change will occur, but it will not help you understand how Indo-Iranian clans lived in the pre-bronze age era. Or Legend of Rostan and How he dies by the hand of his brother.
The hypothesis that Zeus' family tree could be a result of the absorption of foreign deities is one of the most captivating and alluring I've heard in some time. Surely there must be more meat to the bones of this conjecture. Is it possible to specifically point to wives/children of Zeus to show clear lineage to their adoption as being from contemporary neighbouring civilisations? This is so appealing a hypothesis that I give myself pause and demand that there must be evidenced examples we can point to. I know that the Romans had an approach to consider foreign gods another version of their own, which often worked for them strategically, but did the Greeks also have this tendency? Is this a general thing that we also see in ancient America and in Asia as well as Europe? Maybe this would have been a good question for your voicemail answers series... I worry about lowering the high standard so far...
@@WorldofAntiquity Do you know who formulated the hypothesis? I'd like to research further to hear the justification. If it's just empty conjecture without supporting evidence then that would be disappointing.
@@davidmurphy563 It is repeated quite a bit, so I would need to trace it back. The idea is decades old at least, maybe more. But I do know that the names of some of the Greek gods can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European, which means they precede the Greeks. Other names just pop up in later times out of nowhere, during a period when the Greeks were looting foreign temples, bringing sacred items, including statues back home with them. I expect that some of these newer gods can be identified with foreign deities, but I don't know of any specific examples off hand.
I never got the ancient people were to stupid and could understanding the ideas of science, philosophy ect. It's more that the ancients didn't have the right tools to understand certain things. We under stand how lightning and thunder works because of modern tools and other scientific understanding that took time to be understood to understand and learn about the world.
well I like your approach but I would rather take a specific myth, let us say Genesis Creation, or Noah's Flood, examine it by your canon and then take a contrasting but parallel Creation/Flood myth (eg, Sumero-Babylonian, or Greek), and apply the canon again to the second example. Then look again at the contrasts between the two and look for cultural/historical reasons for difference, such as dependence of the one on the other with change through time (deletion or elaboration), or cultural reasons. This applies to all ancient literature, not just myth, which I have studied. My favourite example is the near-copying of the Middle Egyptian '30 Sayings' into two chapters of Proverbs (around chap. 21), and note that in ancient Egypt public drunkeness was socially acceptable, but in ancient Israel it was not, hence the intentional reversal of the proverbial 'wisdom' on this saying. Just a thought.
Great topic. The writings, lectures and interviews of Joseph Campbell, the leading authority about Mythology and that truths, though allegorical, have deeper meanings that transcends individual cultures, religions and historical trends. His book "The Hero with a thousand faces " is very engaging and lucid and I highly recommend, along with his other books. Jordan Peterson is also very eloquent when he explains mythologies and how they relate to religion, philosophy, literature, history and psychology that may seem to be non-obvious until you go much deeper, can appreciate the meanings of the connections between these various fields of study, and very relevant to understanding ourselves, society, current events, politics and human nature.
Oh, I saw the note on screen. As I mentioned earlier, I don't watch you, I listen (while playing computer games). What kind of bizarro, colonial accent it that? {:-:-:}
Hello proffesor, it's the first time that somehow I disagree. There are a lot of myths in Albania, regarding different time period, some of these are historic people with unhistoric events (extra stories). But still this doesn't mean that if we find a person in a myth, he never existed. One of such stories is the duel between a black vest sea invader, fighting in a duel against a local lord, George (the name of the lord of the land). He fought agains the sea invader even he had less physique, but managed to defeat him and saving the land. Several years after learning at school of this myth, I learned that the viking could have raided the Albanian shores durimg the 8 century. Somehow this add for speculation that this dues was a real event. Like this there are many more.
Witnessed Ben saying the ancestors of a Peruvian would rape the stones from puma punku. Instead of apologize for calling his ancestors American. Person named Pete. Didn't screen shot but it was changed.
OK, silly question, but would you classify the works of Herakles as myth or legend? I know my opinion, but yours interests me. Do you believe any of the Homeric characters to have a true historical base? I mean, we can bet the trojan war did take place, but we never found any real traces of Agamemnon, Achilleus or Odysseus...
Just found you through your collab with Atun-Shei, great channel so far :) Have you done any videos on LGBTQIA+ in antiquity? Or do you know of any? I've seen snippets of stories, like trans-pirates, two-spirit people, the Greeks in general, and such from other channels; but never a comprehensive look at the acceptance, or lack thereof, or non-cis het people in the past from a dedicated history channel.
It is generally known that Atlas was condemned to carry the firmament upon his shoulders after the Titanomachy, for having led the Titans against Zeus. However, there is another version according to which Atlas was an extraordinary philosopher, mathematician and astrologist, whose life, if this were true, was irredeemably lost in the myth. Personally, I am inclined to interpret Atlas's fate, not as a kind of tribute, but as a horrific punishment. And I must admit that the hair on my neck stands up when thinking of the possibility that there was a man, an intellectual dismantled, pulverized and lost forever along with his thought and work among a forest of mythical threads, whose central axis is none other than the torment imposed on him by the Olympian god. Today we know that Zeus was never a god. However, it is not far-fetched to imagine that at some point in the past a man could have threatened the foundations of an established power with his ideas and sought, like Prometheus, to illuminate the world. Nor is it difficult to suppose in him an enthusiasm analogous to the hatred he accumulated for himself with each of his words. If we wanted to, we could imagine a thunderbolt silencing him, already tied, and we could almost smell the smoke at the end of the Titanomachy. His ideas...! His ideas to the fire! His head crushed by a large rock and his entrails offered as a feast to the birds. Zeus, not the Olympian, the brutal ruler, tortures his victim forever, now romantically transmuted by the kindled imagination of a rhapsode, into the image of Atlas engraved in our minds. Of course, this is merely speculative literature, laden (it could not be otherwise) with healthy ironies and opportune double meanings; and who is Zeus, if not the world?
@@WorldofAntiquity So in other words, Myths have a really bad track record for leading to any significant Archeological discoveries or being validated by Archaeology. I guess you still can’t blame folks for being drawn to the idea of an ancient Myth leading to a lost city or culture. It has its lure and intrigue. And I guess it’s pretty harmless since pretty much everything prior to 6000BCE is a mystery only speculated on when something tangible is uncovered. It’s an interesting topic to let your imagination run with. So I guess Myths are still serving their original intent. To spark the imagination and dream of the impossible. Good video! I enjoyed it! 👍
Legends/Epics do contain historical information How do we actually separate history from legends What methodology? Just removing extraordinary things is enough?
In some cases it might be enough. In others, not. Some scholars think we should assume nothing without concrete evidence. Others think we can use the basic outline of a legend as a working hypothesis to test.
"How much HISTORY is in MYTH?" It varies from bartender (storyteller) to bartender (storyteller), but usually around 0.9% - 1.73%. Personally, I like it just under 1.20%.
This reminds me of what I learned in seminary: The Bible (first and second testaments) has at least four independent creation stories. It didn’t bother the ancients, why does it bother us?
The ancients as you say had a tendency to assume things absent real understanding nor even evidence at times - to further assume themselves as supposedly correct. Today however _"facts matter"_ - at least for some........ Moral: it "matters" because as noted facts matter. "Belief" is often a bag of fart representing a "closed loop" system of assumed, subjective validity which begins and ends with = the individual. Hence what is held as supposedly true only really has validity to those willing to assume thusly. That is neither scientific nor really even a rational approach. It is however the path to = _"circular reasoning"_ fueled by confirmation bias held to something assumed as purportedly true. p.s. - human cultures in history tend to be like a brick wall with newer ones building upon what older ones did and believed adding our "layers". So the fact one sometimes sees "overlap" between otherwise distinct cultures is not unusual. The subsequent Aztec culture as an example mirrored on many levels what the previous Maya one did and believed - those otherwise distinct cultures arising from the same geographical area of Mexico/Central America. So people via interaction of some type - such as wars or trade etc. - can see a "blending" of cultural beliefs over time as people tend to incorporate facets of what others similarly held as supposedly true. This means if you have multiple cultures rise out of a geographically cohesive area - such as Mesopotamia and the Near East writ large - then the presence of multiple "creation stories" would be expected with some even having marked similarities. An example of this might be the early Sumerian "Flood" story which was incorporated into the later Akkadian/Babylonian one ----> which as a consequence of their conquering what was later recognized as the Jewish peoples saw it become embedded into their own stories = upon which the later Christians then based their own religious dogma......... - ergo a multilayer brick "wall".
Reminds me of Dr. Jackson Crawford had a video talking about history you can learn from the Norse Sagas about how Norse people may have lived with some of the details about there culture and daily life but then basically explains (I’m paraphrasing) , “remember these were for entertainment the main characters are larger then life they are smarter, more handsome, more amazing then anyone else is or possibly could be and deal with great adventure constantly to compare them to the actual lives of the people during the Viking age it’s romanticized stories by there great great great grandchildren, it would be like judging average life for someone in 2011 by the main characters in fast and the furious 4”
Oooo….that is a good quote and framework.
Their (belonging to them) not there (denoting place eg over there). Please. Why do so many commentators not know the difference? You are not alone ❤
@@helenamcginty4920I believe a lot or most do know it’s just when we type fast we go to there because we use it more and it’s out of habit.
That’s the case for me anyways .
@@helenamcginty4920 Dear Helen, please learn about text to speech and the common misspellings associated with it.
I love myths for the meanings i can find and apply to my own life. I feel like trying to create a scientific basis for myth takes away from that. I cant pretend to fully understand the original audiences perspective, but theres a lot you can learn about yourself through other peoples stories (real or not) and seeing the things that people found important in ancient times like family, friends, and love, art, music, intelligence, passion, honor, determination, courage, loyalty, work and play, its beautiful to see how much we all have in common. Through gods and monsters other worldly adventures it reminds me of what it means to be human. And the troubles and beauty we all face whether its today or 2000 years ago.
Beautifully put.
"How much history is in myth" is a complicated little number. As always, David has broken it down into something we can all understand. I want to take this opportunity to thank all who work on this channel....you are all in the credits...and you gals n guys Rock !.....peace to ya.
It really depends on the myth we’re talking about. Historical Events are often Mythologized, for example the Three Kingdoms Period of China is an event that we have fairly decent documentation on, but also there’s a ton of Apocryphal Stories about Figures from the Time Period that include Supernatural events. Even Events from the Late 19th century have undergone elements of Mythification either because there are certain gaps in the historical record, or uncited Apocryphal elements being repeated enough time that most people take the stories at face value.
Granted most stories are likely entirely or almost entirely made up, either as sort of an morality tale or some sort of propaganda. Like there might have been an actual King named Beowulf that the epic is based on, but pretty much everything was made up by his descendants to make Beowulf more impressive of a Ruler to legitimize their own reign.
The Trojan War too, that was heavily mythologized in the intervening several centuries between its likely occurrence and its recording in the Epic Cycle. I know that many historical details were preserved (chariot warfare, certain styles of weapons and armor, certain religious/cultural practices, all of which had long since been abandoned by Greek culture by the time anything got written down), and I would be shocked if some of the events didn't occur in some way resembling the events of the epics, but gods and demigods are also in the story, now directly intervening in the affairs of mortals than at almost any other time in the entirety of Greco-Roman mythology.
Of course, Ireland forms an interesting contrast, where the existing mythology got flattened down into legends and folk tales, or in the case of a lucky (or unlucky) got reanalyzed as saints.
Beowulf was an early comic book hero. Spent 3 days under the sea fighting. Yer.
Not a lot of relevance in most myths that I have read. Some were explanations of natural occurrences eg thunder and lightning
I'm not trying to argue here..but, I didn't know that there was a time in Chinese history known as 'the Three Kingdoms'. I am aware that it's a rather well-known period in the Korean peninsula that's generally known as the period of the Three Kingdoms.
Was it perhaps this that you meant? Or, if not - when was this time in Chinese history? Just curious, that's all.
Edit: Looked it up now - and I saw that both China AND Korea had a time-period, known under the same name. Just to let you know. ;-)
Cheers.
Those are legends tho, not myths. Though with Chinese epics there isn't a fine line where the legend of general Guan Yu stops and the myth of god Guan Gong begins.
An overarching, yet such a simplistically explained world view. It explains so many conceptualizations that have been floating on the borders of myth, legend and history and helps endow them with a meaning that is realistic enough for us to rationally consume them. From Midas and Helen of Troy to The Queen of Sheba, Vikramaditya, Robin Hood, Sindbad and Alice - many of us have believed that these people existed or had a historical basis or reference point but examining their historicity without disturbing their relevance to our lives is part of our own essential "growing up" journey. Thanks for enlightening us.
Alice Liddel was a real person. A young girlt o whom the stories were first told to amuse her. (Similar to AA Milne's Winnie the Pooh's Christopher Robin, and the Darling siblings from Peter Pan). Not that she actually fel down a rabbithole, or stepped through a mirror, but the character in Lewis Caroll's stories is intended to be her, originally, placed in an imaginary environment, that also, like in the movie version of The Wizzard of Oz later, has elements in it rooted in Miss Liddel's reality that she would recognize in the story.
Robin Hood in his most modern tales , like Scott, Greene, and Disney, is a combination of several historical persons, and rural legendary and foloklore elements, similar to Arthur.
Most of the rest are indeed lost in the mists of time to be verified,and Sinbad can be considered as fully fictional.
All these stories and characters have relevance to our lives, but they have very different origines and purposes, so let us not assumethey are all basically the same.
Dr david miano
Please give us a video about
Sumerian and babylonian creation story
Lots of arguements going around about that
Please upload a video soon
Thanks
"All myths have foundation in reality" - Tomb Raider (2018), which itself is based on a true story
And? We are supposed to take as truth a throw away comment from a film?
@@helenamcginty4920 I think it was a joke, Tomb Raider is very much NOT based on a true story.
The healthiest way to look at myths from what I have read is to take value them through the lends of anthropology. There's a lot that can be studied based on the cultural developments of myths. Syncretism, heritage and shared myths build an interesting family tree over the world that researchers can piece together several things of a given society and peoples. I particularly like how Middle Eastern myths and legends have evolved so much over multiple influences over the years that mapping it out is like viewing their history as ever lasting. I think that rarely a culture is lost, seems that it is absorbed and transformed into something new.
The well-known mechanism of the 'TELEPHONE GAME', which is capable of distorting both written and recorded sources, but also dances, mantas, rituals or even drawings, in barely a dozen transmissions. As Experiments by Bartlett, Allport and Postman, Loftus and Palmer showed, stories ADAPT TO each CULTURE, they are simplified, SHORTENED and RATIONALIZED (bias and motivated reasoning) to fit into that time specific beliefs or knowledge. Only in the presence of Religious fascination have certain motifs and patterns been able to survive identically in such distant cultures without contact.
As a professional you must know how it works and why humans anthropomorphise. Religions have gone from polytheistic to monotheistic, leaving gods with undisguised solar attributes. We anthropomorphise to understand things according to our beliefs. Furthermore, the desire for social contact (might contact have been lost at some point in time?) tends to anthropomorphization; being the isolated individuals more prone to it. It can be elaborated that God comes from humans (made in the image of man), in light of our emotions and moral.
Perhaps it's a simplistic interpretation, but I always thought of myths as a "window" to seeing the world through the eyes of ancient peoples. They might not tell you much about factual history, but they might tell you a lot about what different peoples valued at different times. For instance, I have always found it interesting that in Norse Mythology, humor seems play a central role in most stories. Odin is a trickster god, Thor dresses in drag to get his hammer back and when Baldir becomes Invulnerable, the Aesir pass time by throwing stuff at him. Why? Perhaps because the Vikings lived in a harsh and dark environment, and myths with funny plots could make those freezing winters easier to get through. Or perhaps because Norse myths served more as entertainment than education.
Yes. Great points!
Read the story told at the feast in Heorot to celebrate Beowulf's killing of Grendel. In fact read the whole thing. I have it in Old English but also in Seamus Heaney's translation which I recommend. Its great fun.
Thanks Professor, so you aren't a Myth but a Legend!
I value the captions on your videos! Thanks!
I'm from Brazil.
Glad to hear that!
This reminds me of a college professor I took a few classes from years ago. He brought up the sword in the stone Excalibur myth. He posed the hypothetical that the origin could be a sword forge from a nickel iron meteorite. The sword in the stone. I have applied thoughts like that to mythology ever since.
@Karl Dubhe I took those classes in 88 so I wonder if the good doctor had Stolen his material lol. I'll check that title out thanks
The thing about the flood narratives is this: we have plenty of archeological and geological evidence that colossal floods occurred in places where human beings had settled. Not just one flood, but many and we know the underlying reason was that the glaciers were melting.
I have to feel that the prevalence of flood myths in the various writings of various cultures had to be informed, to some degree, by actual human experience.
I’m not basing my belief in floods on myth - I’m basing it on geology and archeology; but, as you said, mythmakers try to explain the unknown in terms of the known. Floods, huge ones, were things they actually knew.
_" we know the underlying reason was that the glaciers were melting"_
We also know that what you just asserted as fact is not, in fact, factual.
Flood myths arise from sufficiently "dramatic" events - catastrophic, with mass devastation. Everywhere you've known your entire life is suddenly chest-deep or worse in water. Buildings crumble, people are dead or displaced, croplands are ruined. Disease and starvation become rampant. It is effectively the end of the world (you know).
During the period of time you're referring to, the younger Dryas, the sea levels never rose more than 60mm *per year.* Not sudden. Not catastrophic. Not devastating. Definitely not dramatic. In short, nothing that could be woven into a legend.
Yes there is geological evidence of floods in the planet's history = okay.... - so what. What matters is not if floods occurred. What matters is = what if any evidence exists to show whereby those floods impacted human civilization in some way and to what extent. Absent such connective evidence you are left with "floods happened" = and lots of assumptions.
As an aside. In so much as man requiring water subsequently is compelled to build his communities in proximity to water then yes he can sometimes be impacted by floods which can be passed down in his lore.
To try to assert however that a civilization was supposedly wiped out by some undefined "flood" and use that as a rationale to avoid the reality that no real evidence exists to show said civilization was actually real - to say nothing of having been destroyed by some flood = is pure fiction representing stereotypical "arguing from ignorance". It is the archeological equivalent of: _"the dog ate my homework."_
It would be like me claiming meteors struck our Moon 10K years ago and that caused the Earth's axis to shift wiping out a civilization in Australia. So I am taking a completely unrelated event and using that to justify what is an assumed civilization which is further assumed to have been "lost" = ergo assumptions about assumptions - at which point Occam's kicks in. That is not then basing upon knowns as you say = it is the reverse. It is arguing based upon assumed unknowns - hence arguing from ignorance.
HA! Love the “Who Mourns for Adonais?” Clip!
Ancient history was one of my fields of study in graduate school, so I just HAD to subscribe to this channel!
Awesome. Welcome!
@@WorldofAntiquity Looking forward the full playlist for Ancient History Day, too!
History becomes Legend, Legends become myths...
Good movie....... - and books.
I love this series the most. There's so much garbage out there that if we could make stuff like this more popular-- it would be amazing.
This comes up in art history as well. You can't separate art from the cultural context & time period it was created. For instance, during the Middle Ages/ Renaissance it was common to depict Biblical characters in contemporary clothing (to the Renaissance or Middle Ages) & place those characters in European settings. It doesn't mean the people from biblical times wore Renaissance style clothing or that Jesus was actually born in Italy in the 1500s or that the people who made the art believed that.
Looking sharp! Great video
Hey mate, the guy over at Uncharted X is having Graham Hancock on his show tomorrow to explain why it's important to have an "alternative" view of history. You have got to have a look and comment.
I will give it a watch
Great video! This topic has always been fascinating to me; the border between legend and history is alluring. We want legends to be true because it’d be awesome.
I love the new thumbnail; it did, in fact, lure me in. Thank you for all your work.
I found this to be a really interesting take on the differences between myth and legend. Food for thought, for sure!
I’m obsessed with your channel! I hope you cover more topics on Mesopotamia. 😍😍😍😍
More to come!
Just a couple easy questions for you, Dr. Miano. How does one study the history of a society if that society has an esoteric or strictly clerical writing systems, or even a lack of a writing system all together? Where does pre-history end and historical record begin for those societies, if at all?
I'm working under the assumption that Eurasia had a unique geographical "connectedness" that allowed for wider dispersion of technology including writing systems compared to tall and skinny continents such as Africa and the Americas (a la Guns, Germs, and Steel). Are writing systems of ancient civilizations more commonly developed independently or borrowed and adapted (leading to wider adoption in very well connected parts of the world)? Are they necessary for a society to be complex and technologically advanced (such as the case with the Mississippians in North America) or have there been other novel ways societies have organized to lessen the impact of lacking the written word?
If a society has no written records, it is out of the realm of history. In that case, archaeology will probably serve best. A society doesn't necessarily need writing to be organized, but they certainly would need some form of record-keeping. Most writing systems were borrowed from earlier or neighboring cultures, but there are some that were developed independently.
@@WorldofAntiquity thank you so much for your response and for clarifying the difference between historian and archaeologist. I've found that confusing since I've been learning more about ancient history recently. I'm sure it's not news to you but you can appreciate how the waters can get muddy at the dawn of civilizations :-) speaking of myth and history, reading myth through a single framework seems... arbitrary. Can't myths be read as "all the things" at once? Like a jambalaya contains sausage, shellfish, vegetables, spices, and herbs, but it is not one of those things. Different people add things to the pot with the final product being a collection of parts AND additionally parts coming from the interaction between the parts and belonging to the community.
Do a response on Bright Insight's video he uploaded today. He is suggesting that this artifact called the Nubian Egg depicts Atlantis and the Giza Pryamids. He also discusses wood that was found in the Giza Pyramids that is older than them
Brilliant video! Well done!
Look’n sharp, doc.
Thanks for another great video!
Thanks again; super fun, as always.
Brings up Image thinking. I've always considered myths as a form of poetic memory palace. John Verveake seems to have a good understanding of myth and it's purpose. When the Bible was handed out for everyone to read and interpret for themselves, thanks Luther, people felt compelled to take things in those myths literally. Then extended that concept to Greek and other myths, believing that a myth was something the dumb people way back when tried to use to understand natural phenomenon. It's taken a few hundred years for academics to move away from that position and consider myths as something other than lame explanations.
Great video, Dr. Miano. Goes to show that many alternative theories are a form of literalist fundamentalism. I like the part where you point out the selectivity of highlighting some parts of a mythology while ignoring others. The Lost Civilization theorists ignore, for instance, what Ovid says about the Golden Age. It was not a time of advanced civilization, but a time before laws, agriculture, sea travel, weaponry and fortification ( Metamorphoses 1:90-127). Martin Lings states, "In looking back to the past, [our ancestors] did not look back to a complex civilization but to small village settlements with a minimum of social organization; and beyond these they looked back to men who lived without houses, in entirely natural surroundings, without books, without agriculture, and in the beginning even without clothes. It would be true then to say that the ancient conception of early man, based on sacred scriptures and on age-old traditional lore handed down by word of mouth from the remote past, was scarcely different, as regards the bare facts of material existence, from the modern scientific conception, which differs from the traditional one chiefly because it weighs up the same set of facts differently." (Ancient Beliefs and Modern Superstitions. 3rd ed. 1991, pp. 6-7).
So much great information expained in this video. Thank you
Loving this series.
Enjoying your content!
Stories are shortened, not lengthened. Greeks regarded Babylonian myths as Trustworthy, Romans gave less credence to them, but absorbed Greek's ones as their own. Middle Age people progressively changed their faith into Christianity and Islam and "“History became legend. the legend became myth. And they missed some things they shouldn't have forgotten. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring vanished from all knowledge." (Tolkien).
Tolkien is fiction. And where do you get this idea that stories get shortened, not lengthened? That goes against massive amounts of evidence.
@@WorldofAntiquity Sure? I thought it was real 🤣 Massive amounts? I also have massive amounts. F. Bartlett 1932 Remembering - A study in experimental and social psychology; Loftus and Palmer (1974)_Reconstruction of Automobile Destruction; Allport and Postman 1947 Psychology of rumor (I think); Social Contagion of Memory_ Katya Terra...
There's more but anycase a lot of details get invented of course, others suppressed.
@@theconsciousnutshell805 None of those look like books about myths or literature. They look like books about memories.
@@WorldofAntiquity 🤦♂They're not Books. They are Scientific Papers about transmission of memories (which includes myth or any story).
@@theconsciousnutshell805 Myths are not, and were never, transmission of memories.
I recall that as a teenager I was told a story about WWI soldiers witnessing a battle line of armored holy knights on horseback holding back a german assault. At that age I was somewhat more gullible than I am now and I took it as a real and impressive event. My question is how widespread or long lasting does such a story have to be to count as a myth? Is it just a tall tail propaganda or a modern myth?
David Rohl, in "Legend: the Genesis of Civilization", makes an interesting case that Zep Tepi was in Sumer.
Over the weekend my dad said “those lost history guys aren’t really posting videos anymore…”. I told him they kinda had their bubble burst by a bunch of younger professors and archaeologists who basically answered the “who cut this? / who built that?” questions they had. With questions answered the mystique kinda went away. The Giza Pyramids ARE tombs, Atlantis is as fictional as Windrixville and the Romans built the Temple of Jupiter. He then said “there is a lot of misinformation out there, huh?” Not as much as there used to be!
I love that post, and you are correct in all you say. We need people like David to dispel the quite frankly ridiculous and endless silly theories about our ancient past.....with evidence. Something alternative theorists are lacking on. Khufu was responsible for the great pyramid, the Romans built Baalbek (with the help of some enslaved Entrucians)...all the evidence tells us this....end of conversation.
Atlantis story is not a myth it is just a version of krishna s lost kingdom dwarka which turned into Atlantis with time as we know. Good news is that dwarka has been found.
Romans did not built the temple of jupiter it was Jews who built it because the main god of Romans was mitra mentioned in rigveda so Romans used to follow maitrism.
The professor’s answers are much better.
I heard a young African traditional storyteller discussing his art on a radio programme some time er.... before last week. He took it as read that he would embellish his traditional tale in his own way. As his father and grandfather had before him. So the idea I was taught by those instilled with the idea that traditional story tellers (in the 1960s invariably Native American) somehow preserved their stories unchanged over the generations is probably not true. (This was also the era of Eric thingy's Chariots of the Gods) I always wondered how they either knew this as a fact or could even do it.
like 'folk music', everyone 'inspired' by the same tunes and 'play with/change the rhymes ....
They say that looking into the past is like looking into a foreign country: some things will strike you as weird at times and it takes careful research to get a better understanding. Funnily enough the same can also be true about the future. That's why when I wrote my sci-fi book series The Godsend Epic I went to great lengths to make it feel as though it read like history, much like how George R.R. Martin took inspiration from world history in shaping the various cultures in A Song of Ice and Fire. That way, if the sci-fi setting was to look back at our era, it would feel like visiting a foreign country from their standpoint and some of our modern customs would strike them as weird at times.
Excellent video!
Thank you!
Excellent and interesting as usual prof. Miano. And myths and legends are 'right up my alley', although I love them for their own sake...that is without any particular interest as to which degree they correspond to 'reality'. But as our literary legacy, purely. (Although, you can often discern at least to a certain degree how they were thinking and what they considered important and so on).
I saw recently that you had made a video on the Buddha - which I'm going to check out next. But, still - I wonder what you're thinking about the accuracy of so called 'sacred'/religious texts, at least when it comes to the teachings and alleged sayings of the founder/important persons?
(In particular within the Hindu and Buddhist religions. Since I've seen quite many YT-videos and docus where they show that they 'pass on' these texts already to young boys who 'must' learn to recite them to the letter. Where they all recite them together, at the same time - and therefore is supposedly easy to spot if/when anyone get a word wrong [or even syllable], both for the individual itself, but also for the others who at least sits close to him, as well as the 'teacher'.
And I've seen that this 'style' of learning large chunks of texts is utilized amongst both young Brahmin boys, as well as within Buddhist monasteries. And have also read a book written by a Swede who went to Thailand to become a Buddhist monk - who described that they were reciting at least rather large parts of the 'most important texts' containing the Buddhist Teachings, EVERY morning and night!).
Otherwise, I agree 100% that all myths and legends are embellished and further added to, at least under several centuries - or perhaps for as long as they were purely orally transmitted. After all - they weren't concerned with historical accuracy, as we might be today. It was about telling an interesting, enchanting story, describing a time when 'the Gods' roamed the Earth or telling a precautionary tale, about questions concerning 'ethics', etc...
Oh sorry, I'm just rambling on here. I was just wondering about what you thought about the accuracy of the text transmitted in the two religions mentioned above. (not saying there isn't more traditions like that - but that's the two ex. I know).
-But, I realize this post is likely to drown either amongst all the other posts - or, within merely my own sea of words...but, as I've written this much already I might as well post it! ;-)
thank you for discussing this topic in detail and driving home the point of looking at ALL the evidence, including context, and not just trying to grab random myths from different time periods in order to bolster a theory or narrative. I have a question, though (that might warrant a future video): how do historians know that any written account is true? Like if we find a single Sumerian tablet that says "I am so-and-so, and I am the wealthiest man of my day and own all this land and this is the year I am writing this" - can we take that at face value? Or do we need corroborating tablets that also make mention of that person and him/her being so wealthy? Is there a kind of "magic formula" for when we can be "relatively certain" that something is true and not just a fabrication? In statistics, there is kind of a "stastistically significant" number that most scientists agree needs to be met in order for the evidence to be considered "convincing". I'd imagine if multiple accounts from multiple civilizations who did interact with each other all said the same thing, then it's likely to be true. But what if it's only from a singular civilizaiton, and only one or two accounts? Or how much value do second or third-hand accounts have? Like we have a few writings of the ancient Egyptians (namely Cheops/Khufu) who claim they built the pyramids, and then I think only one other account some years later from a Greek visitor who wrote that "the Egyptians told me that their old pharaoh Cheops built the pyramids", but does that evidence really count, since it's still just from the Egyptians and not even first-hand? I'd just love to know to what degree historians and achaeologists debate evidence before accepting it, and what it generally takes to get them to change their minds.
PS thanks to you I'm no longer on the ancient advanced civilization train, but this is something that still bothers me. Like if in 1,000 years a future civilization finds our National Enquirer or Breitbart articles and think that's really the truth. Or maybe in 50 years some tyrant takes over the world and burns all books and destroys all computers and rewrites histor to make it look like he or his people were responsible for the Statue of Liberty. How would future civilizations know that his account is not true? Especially if the dates work out within an acceptable margin of error?
You might want to check out this video on the subject: ua-cam.com/video/GZYNL0-KHC4/v-deo.html
@@WorldofAntiquity thank you! I've been slowly going through all your videos since discovering the channel a few months ago, so it's slow going. Maybe I should just start at the beginning?
Watched this video a second time today and had previously viewed and liked it. Too bad I can't like it twice. Processing ideas, history or knowledge is an art. We often just use the same patterns of logic in our thinking and never really get "out of the box" to use a cliche. I can always count on your videos to give me that out of the box perspective and a new thought pattern. Thanks, Dr. Miano.
The story of Orion and the seven sisters must be a very old myth, and it must have been very tangible to those who told it first. Maybe someone at the time had a glimpse of what we now know, but they couldn't describe this glimpse in words so this was their best way. Also, it must have been a good story to tell at the camp fire before everybody went to bed.
How would you explain the difference between myths and religions?
I’ve thought The ancient myths are like their religions, since about their gods and explanations about creation and why life is how it is.
1 word: Troy 😉
(3 words: Love the channel) 😊
I think of the legends of HH Holmes. There was no doubt he was a serial killer, but to accredit every disappearance during the 1893 Chicago World's Fair to him is a bit of a stretch... though many documentaries do.
This has been a very interesting video! I always wondered about many of those old myths. I'm glad you covered this. 😁
Oh, but you'd have gotten my like, anyway, just for the Star Trek clip, LOL!
The other thing is its hard to know what is completely fictionalized, even in legends as opposed to myths. The Trojan war was up in the air as to whether it was a real conflict or something invented, until we found the ruins, should we use legends and maybe even myths to try and find new evidence like the what happened with Troy?
Legends, yes.
Good video, nice new thumbnail 👍
This is the kinda history I like, the truth behind myths, stuff like Troy or the preposed theories behind some mythical beasts being early attempts at identifying fossils
Can't wait for the premier
Yes, for understandig (traditional) myths, it is crucial to realize that in former times the concept of rationality was not developed, and the knowledge about the world was very small. Therefore, descriptions were rather magic or superstitous (from our modern perspective), and contradictions were nothing conspicuous for these most ancient peoples. I would say that they literally believed their myths (contrary to your statement), but "literally" not with a rationalistic approach. Hesiod was the first to "sort" myths, i.e. to begin with a rationalistic approach to eliminate contradictions. -- Atlantis is quite a different thing. Two phenomena concerning "myths" must be understood to approach the Atlantis enigma: (a) What happened when the more rational Greeks arrived at Egypt and started to learn about Egyptian myths (the wrong idea of an age of Egypt of 11,000+ years comes from this clash of two concepts). (b) The concept of "Platonic Myths", about which I wrote a whole book: "Platonische Mythen - Was sie sind und was sie nicht sind", just recently in 2021. O yes, it's complicated.
How do you feel about the belief in a historical Jesus (which seems to be the consensus veiw) as an example of euhemerism?
Interesting idea. But because we have records from the time, and the earlier ones do not portray him as God, we have more reason to believe that divine attributes were added to his story over time. The embellishments can be traced.
@@WorldofAntiquity Do a video on that. I think Bart Ehrman wrote a book called "how jesus became god", though I havnt read it (read some of his). Sounds like a really intresting topic and would be a case study in mythologising, which seems to be one of your intrests. I think people would like it as a topic.
Great videos.
What do you know about the supposed cocaine mummies and did ancient Egyptians have access to plants that would have produced a similar effect to tobacco or cocaine?
Not sure what a fact is myself. But I do think a story can be lots of things including a memory peg or as measuring sticks. Some journey stories have lots of detailed information but made sense only if you see the landmarks. Maybe the landmarks are consistent. Then there are the characters and how they solve problems and so you see the ideology of the people in the breath of their stories. Rapunzel I believe is about growing lettuce. We don’t always remember the purpose of the original stories and there lies the rub.
To understand the distant past it is often critical to either have some direct documentation - or else enough physical evidence to allow for "observational analysis" leading to plausible explanations. The problems with contemporaneous or subsequent accounts however as alluded to is that people back then did not necessarily verify what they recorded. Thus what was likely mythological/local lore was merely written down prima facie and accepted as "history".
So the key as always is to try to verify what was claimed against what do we see. As an example. Herodotus is colloquially referred to as _"the father of history."_ Yet some things he recorded are obviously mythological in nature - while other things have been corroborated via archeological/historical evidence.
Finally the problem of oral history is a constant. For no other reason than the way our brains store memories such oral telling of history over time can come to develop "variance". Thus it is not so much as the teller is "exaggerating" as owing to how their brains stored the information details can be lost. Think eyewitnesses and a crime scene. Police when interviewing multiple people who saw the same event can come up with variations of what was claimed to be seen. So it is not that the witnesses are lying per se as their brains simply processed what was observed a bit differently resulting in variation of the telling.
Moral of the story: during the Cold War countries would say = _"trust - but verify."_ So in considering historical sources one should say that certain ones show to have a good track record - BUT - one should also always try to verify when and where possible.
As far as the "alternative" schtick they as noted make a habit of trying to cast what are myths as purported "possibilities". One can if they twist facts and logic enough portray almost anything as purportedly "possible" = but that does not necessarily mean it is therefore "likely". The way to discern between the two is to follow the credible evidence wherever it leads. What the "alternative" schtick peddles is more Hollywood than actual history. 🤨
Or we can believe every myth until proven untrue, without a doubt, to each of our satisfactions. Even if the myths are contradictory! Just as Stargate now explains all the Egyptian myths.
I am home in England, it is around 90 degrees, i have a day off and might get a chance to watch this when it premieres for once. How much truth is in myth ?.....it will be interesting to find out.
Hello there from the other side of the pond, Denver Colorado. It is hot here, 98° . I enjoy history and UAP and many other things.
@@SkibroDuck Hello my American friend....sounds hot over there...i hope you have AC...peace to ya.
Hi there professor, I was wondering if we could get your take on the Antikythera mechanism--the one ancient artifact which seems to stun and puzzle even the world of straightlaced academia. I've seen a number of good, in-depth videos about it here on UA-cam which describe how archaeologists were able to ingeniously solve most of its mysteries, but there's still a number of questions about it that remain including what its actual purpose was (it seems to be an astronomical calendar/calculator, but what for?), who owned it, and if there were any other mechanisms like it or that led to it (it seems impossible to believe that the highly sophisticated artifact was invented out of nowhere, manufactured just once, and then disappeared just as quickly). Also, I saw in one clip where they were attempting to create a reconstruction of the mechanism using only the tools the Greeks were known to have used at the time, but it is proving challenging since many of the ultrafine gears of its interior parts would normally require much finer tools than those ancients had. So it's definitely a mystery. What are your thoughts on this thing? Do you think there may have been others like it around that we just haven't found yet? Was it an educational tool or a rich man's plaything? And why do you think the technology was lost? Given that the Greeks were just starting to experiment with steam power, is it possible they were actually on the cusp of an industrial revolution? Anyways, I would love your thoughts on this. PS the beard looks fantastic!
It would be an interesting topic for a video, for sure! I don't know if you are familiar with this website, but it has some great stuff: www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/
That was great sir!
Thanks!
I remember playing the telephone game when I was a kid. Myths seem like a cultural telephone game to me. A game that has been played by generations.
That’s a good looking thumbnail!
Such a frustrating question because my gut tells me tons. Almost certainly, in one way or another, all of it has some placement in historical events
But I seems impossible to tease out the literal from the figurative, from the metaphor, the idiomatic. Surely nobody met he gods, but maybe someone did _sonething_ at some time that was worth being remembered.
If historians eons from now dig up artifacts about a thousand yea empire in Germany or a 10,000 empire in Japan, there is some truth there to be found. But without context and understanding you can’t find that truth that these were jus the aspirations of real people, not observed realities.
Life is hard, it always has been but, now we name our children at birth as we have developed expectations of their survival. Of course that means the forest is hunted out and there is always a Q to get into the cinema.
Was the name Gobekli Tepe found on the T shape granite . Or did Dr. Kraus or historians coined the word Tepe to denote an early civilisation or first time or first occasion?
The name is modern. It is not written on an artifacts.
In two or three millennia, future alternative-history types will be making videos about how DC and Marvel heroes must have been based on a real people.
Perhaps I missed it but I would very much like to see your approach applied to the stories of the Bible. Particularly the archeological story of how and why the stories came about. In particular the local revolution where all the priests of the various gods were part of the old order and therefore a bigger all powerful God was needed to call out the old priests as tools of the old powers ( but kept God's wife around) and built a much more egalitarian society until they were conquered and taken to Babalon only to be later released back home. Icannot but think that no matter how homogeneous the folk were as conquered they would not be when they got back and in an effort to unify those people the first "bible" was written down drawing a lot from Babalonian myths like Gilgamesh but no longer praising the dangerous idea of revolution instead created the Exodus and invasion and conquest in its place. I have had a tough time piecing this together and much is vague and just who wrote down the stories as a job description if unknown actual name and the role that religion has played as a mechanism in societys of unification, oppression, conjob, and attempts through metaphor to pass on very difficult concepts of intention often boiled down to good and evil but far more nuanced than that. Exploring that last part has been the focus of my own motives.
Probably that their stories, myths, texts, etc from "pre christian bible" times were true. Aswell as if they overlap
I'm not sure I can wait that long... but I will try :D
Oh crap J, i thought it was today....your post made me realise it is days away. I will be back at work so will miss the premier 😟....oh well, i will catch up up with it when i can.
Also wondering, could fragments of tales about historical ancient people and events have become embellished via oral tradition into legendary or religious characters/events, but then utilized/transformed to become characters and parts of stories used in myths (elevating pieces of what was once embellished bits of real people and events) and then using them in myths that are actually distorted or totally changed tales to describe phenomenons of nature (making it a myth). In other words, historical names, people, events - turned somewhat legendary through years and years of oral tradition - then re-purposed and re-formed into elements and persons in an actual myth which is only a literary or religious explanation of nature or the unknown world?
It's possible, but that is not the most common form of development.
ALL OF IT. i.e. "HISTORY is a MYTH agreed upon." NAPOLEON
Not to put too fine a point on it, but who gives a flying fuck at a rolling donut what Napoleon had to say about anything?
Sort of a related question! Did any ancient writers or historians reference the stone age?
I'm curious about how much ancient people knew about their own deep past. I know that they wouldn't have thought of it as "the Stone Age", but how did they think of it? Was there a sense of people living in a different way than they had in the past that was more grounded than the golden age-silver age-bronze age story or the Garden of Eden story, or was a sort of narrative about the deep past embedded in those myths somehow? Are there any accounts of the changes in tools and social structures as time went on?
I know that in Lucretius book 6 there’s a portion about early humans wearing raw skins and being hunted by animals before discovering fire and beginning to hunt the animals that had eaten them, and then learning how to work with wood and bronze and iron. But maybe that’s more of a myth than an attempt to explain the past?
The ancients had no conception of a Stone Age. But they did set stories far in the past, which would have coincided with the Stone Age. They just don't describe it as such.
Would those stories have been set at some point in the past as a storytelling device, or would they have been referring to a real event? I know that things like the Trojan War were probably based on real events, but how do we tell when a story is referring to an event that happened thousands of years before even that?
Stay tuned for the video!
Many myths seem to be explanations of ruins that were ancient to the bronze and Iron age people. The illiad, for example
Great videos….thoughts on the Trojan War…historical?
Thanks for another great mythbuster Dr Miano, always refreshing to hear a rational, reasoned and well informed voice in the cacophony of jabbering tin foil hatters!!
Well, Mythology is more useful for the personal and social understanding of a people rather than historical events. They are cycles of fate (social processes) that humans are forced to live through.
It will help you understand history by understanding the people and their actions but not as historical facts.
The Legend of Zahak for instance. ( It is as if our ancestors have traveled to the future and made this story based on today's situation of Iran...) This legend shows how Iranian behave and how social change will occur, but it will not help you understand how Indo-Iranian clans lived in the pre-bronze age era.
Or Legend of Rostan and How he dies by the hand of his brother.
Today is the day. Counting down the hours.
Excellent, Sir!
The hypothesis that Zeus' family tree could be a result of the absorption of foreign deities is one of the most captivating and alluring I've heard in some time. Surely there must be more meat to the bones of this conjecture. Is it possible to specifically point to wives/children of Zeus to show clear lineage to their adoption as being from contemporary neighbouring civilisations? This is so appealing a hypothesis that I give myself pause and demand that there must be evidenced examples we can point to. I know that the Romans had an approach to consider foreign gods another version of their own, which often worked for them strategically, but did the Greeks also have this tendency? Is this a general thing that we also see in ancient America and in Asia as well as Europe?
Maybe this would have been a good question for your voicemail answers series... I worry about lowering the high standard so far...
As far as I know, there are no concrete examples. It is just an educated guess.
@@WorldofAntiquity Do you know who formulated the hypothesis? I'd like to research further to hear the justification. If it's just empty conjecture without supporting evidence then that would be disappointing.
@@davidmurphy563 It is repeated quite a bit, so I would need to trace it back. The idea is decades old at least, maybe more. But I do know that the names of some of the Greek gods can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European, which means they precede the Greeks. Other names just pop up in later times out of nowhere, during a period when the Greeks were looting foreign temples, bringing sacred items, including statues back home with them. I expect that some of these newer gods can be identified with foreign deities, but I don't know of any specific examples off hand.
I never got the ancient people were to stupid and could understanding the ideas of science, philosophy ect. It's more that the ancients didn't have the right tools to understand certain things. We under stand how lightning and thunder works because of modern tools and other scientific understanding that took time to be understood to understand and learn about the world.
Commenting to help the algorithm. Good video.
Great video
well I like your approach but I would rather take a specific myth, let us say Genesis Creation, or Noah's Flood, examine it by your canon and then take a contrasting but parallel Creation/Flood myth (eg, Sumero-Babylonian, or Greek), and apply the canon again to the second example. Then look again at the contrasts between the two and look for cultural/historical reasons for difference, such as dependence of the one on the other with change through time (deletion or elaboration), or cultural reasons. This applies to all ancient literature, not just myth, which I have studied. My favourite example is the near-copying of the Middle Egyptian '30 Sayings' into two chapters of Proverbs (around chap. 21), and note that in ancient Egypt public drunkeness was socially acceptable, but in ancient Israel it was not, hence the intentional reversal of the proverbial 'wisdom' on this saying. Just a thought.
There are many narratives we could look at. We shall see.
Great topic. The writings, lectures and interviews of Joseph Campbell, the leading authority about Mythology and that truths, though allegorical, have deeper meanings that transcends individual cultures, religions and historical trends. His book "The Hero with a thousand faces " is very engaging and lucid and I highly recommend, along with his other books.
Jordan Peterson is also very eloquent when he explains mythologies and how they relate to religion, philosophy, literature, history and psychology that may seem to be non-obvious until you go much deeper, can appreciate the meanings of the connections between these various fields of study, and very relevant to understanding ourselves, society, current events, politics and human nature.
07:36
Did you say "eedieologies", or aetiologies?
{:-:-:}
Oh, I saw the note on screen. As I mentioned earlier, I don't watch you, I listen (while playing computer games).
What kind of bizarro, colonial accent it that?
{:-:-:}
Ha, from our point of view, everyone else has the accent.
@@WorldofAntiquity
What is it though? Canadamerican?
{:-:-:}
Hello proffesor, it's the first time that somehow I disagree. There are a lot of myths in Albania, regarding different time period, some of these are historic people with unhistoric events (extra stories). But still this doesn't mean that if we find a person in a myth, he never existed. One of such stories is the duel between a black vest sea invader, fighting in a duel against a local lord, George (the name of the lord of the land). He fought agains the sea invader even he had less physique, but managed to defeat him and saving the land. Several years after learning at school of this myth, I learned that the viking could have raided the Albanian shores durimg the 8 century. Somehow this add for speculation that this dues was a real event. Like this there are many more.
Hi Elsid. Those sound more like legends than myths.
Witnessed Ben saying the ancestors of a Peruvian would rape the stones from puma punku. Instead of apologize for calling his ancestors American. Person named Pete. Didn't screen shot but it was changed.
OK, silly question, but would you classify the works of Herakles as myth or legend? I know my opinion, but yours interests me. Do you believe any of the Homeric characters to have a true historical base? I mean, we can bet the trojan war did take place, but we never found any real traces of Agamemnon, Achilleus or Odysseus...
Just found you through your collab with Atun-Shei, great channel so far :)
Have you done any videos on LGBTQIA+ in antiquity? Or do you know of any?
I've seen snippets of stories, like trans-pirates, two-spirit people, the Greeks in general, and such from other channels; but never a comprehensive look at the acceptance, or lack thereof, or non-cis het people in the past from a dedicated history channel.
Not yet. But if you leave a question at speakpipe.com/DavidMiano, I might!
Intresting question
It is generally known that Atlas was condemned to carry the firmament upon his shoulders after the Titanomachy, for having led the Titans against Zeus. However, there is another version according to which Atlas was an extraordinary philosopher, mathematician and astrologist, whose life, if this were true, was irredeemably lost in the myth.
Personally, I am inclined to interpret Atlas's fate, not as a kind of tribute, but as a horrific punishment. And I must admit that the hair on my neck stands up when thinking of the possibility that there was a man, an intellectual dismantled, pulverized and lost forever along with his thought and work among a forest of mythical threads, whose central axis is none other than the torment imposed on him by the Olympian god.
Today we know that Zeus was never a god. However, it is not far-fetched to imagine that at some point in the past a man could have threatened the foundations of an established power with his ideas and sought, like Prometheus, to illuminate the world. Nor is it difficult to suppose in him an enthusiasm analogous to the hatred he accumulated for himself with each of his words. If we wanted to, we could imagine a thunderbolt silencing him, already tied, and we could almost smell the smoke at the end of the Titanomachy. His ideas...! His ideas to the fire! His head crushed by a large rock and his entrails offered as a feast to the birds.
Zeus, not the Olympian, the brutal ruler, tortures his victim forever, now romantically transmuted by the kindled imagination of a rhapsode, into the image of Atlas engraved in our minds.
Of course, this is merely speculative literature, laden (it could not be otherwise) with healthy ironies and opportune double meanings; and who is Zeus, if not the world?
Love the beard!! 😍
Thank you!
very well said sir
Thank you!
@@WorldofAntiquity thank you sir
How often do examples of known Myths have any elements of truth in them? Meaning versus having no truth whatsoever.
Honestly, I can't think of a single myth found to have had an element of truth in it.
@@WorldofAntiquity So in other words, Myths have a really bad track record for leading to any significant Archeological discoveries or being validated by Archaeology. I guess you still can’t blame folks for being drawn to the idea of an ancient Myth leading to a lost city or culture. It has its lure and intrigue. And I guess it’s pretty harmless since pretty much everything prior to 6000BCE is a mystery only speculated on when something tangible is uncovered. It’s an interesting topic to let your imagination run with. So I guess Myths are still serving their original intent. To spark the imagination and dream of the impossible. Good video! I enjoyed it! 👍
Legends/Epics do contain historical information
How do we actually separate history from legends
What methodology?
Just removing extraordinary things is enough?
In some cases it might be enough. In others, not. Some scholars think we should assume nothing without concrete evidence. Others think we can use the basic outline of a legend as a working hypothesis to test.
"How much HISTORY is in MYTH?" It varies from bartender (storyteller) to bartender (storyteller), but usually around 0.9% - 1.73%. Personally, I like it just under 1.20%.
This reminds me of what I learned in seminary: The Bible (first and second testaments) has at least four independent creation stories. It didn’t bother the ancients, why does it bother us?
The ancients as you say had a tendency to assume things absent real understanding nor even evidence at times - to further assume themselves as supposedly correct. Today however _"facts matter"_ - at least for some........
Moral: it "matters" because as noted facts matter. "Belief" is often a bag of fart representing a "closed loop" system of assumed, subjective validity which begins and ends with = the individual.
Hence what is held as supposedly true only really has validity to those willing to assume thusly. That is neither scientific nor really even a rational approach. It is however the path to = _"circular reasoning"_ fueled by confirmation bias held to something assumed as purportedly true.
p.s. - human cultures in history tend to be like a brick wall with newer ones building upon what older ones did and believed adding our "layers". So the fact one sometimes sees "overlap" between otherwise distinct cultures is not unusual.
The subsequent Aztec culture as an example mirrored on many levels what the previous Maya one did and believed - those otherwise distinct cultures arising from the same geographical area of Mexico/Central America. So people via interaction of some type - such as wars or trade etc. - can see a "blending" of cultural beliefs over time as people tend to incorporate facets of what others similarly held as supposedly true.
This means if you have multiple cultures rise out of a geographically cohesive area - such as Mesopotamia and the Near East writ large - then the presence of multiple "creation stories" would be expected with some even having marked similarities.
An example of this might be the early Sumerian "Flood" story which was incorporated into the later Akkadian/Babylonian one ----> which as a consequence of their conquering what was later recognized as the Jewish peoples saw it become embedded into their own stories = upon which the later Christians then based their own religious dogma......... - ergo a multilayer brick "wall".
Was the thumbnail an Ideon reference?
That's Herakles.
Mulan is an example,hercules, or atlantis