The best way to truly determine whether or not it is cheating is by hiring Dream's rocket scientist to determine whether or not the deck is truly randomized in the event of declumping.
I'm not a scientist, but do have a physics degree. If artificially affecting probability is considered cheating, then, yes, "declumping" is cheating. Having three cards stuck together is a valid random state. Just because they are the same card does not mean that their arrangement is not the result of a random process. The only way to "declump" them legally would be to simply shuffle the deck without splitting the clumped cards up first. The end result of a properly shuffled deck is still a random state. Mathematically, it should be okay. However, these are physical objects, and I'm sure all of us are familiar with cards or sheets of paper getting stuck together or being mildly attracted to each other. "Declumping" would articially break this kind of interaction. I'm not sure the significance this interaction would actually have on the state of the shuffled deck though. Best case would be to just shuffle, have your opponent cut the deck, and shuffle again. Edit: lol ignore this, I read another comment saying Konami has stated that a deck must be thoroughly shuffled after any sort of pre-sorting. So "declumping" is okay as long as it's properly shuffled afterward. I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh in almost 8 years and just randomly stumbled upon this video.
If they can do it while playing at a reasonable pace then go for it. Also PSA just call a judge for slow play, just do it, if you think your opponent is slow playing you then they probably are. just call the judge
Doesn't the second bullet of "You cannot pre-sort your Deck without thoroughly shuffling the Deck afterwards" imply that it's okay to sort your deck during searching? The implication seems to be that you can do anything you want with card order so long as you shuffle afterwards.
Yup, that's correct. HOWEVER, in order to truly randomize a 40 cards deck you need to perform more than 20 riffle shuffles, which no one does because it would take too long. Therefore, "declumping" your deck will have an effect on the deck you present to your opponent (which equals to cheating, somewhat). If your opponent happens to do this (which is very rare), take your sweet time to shuffle their deck
@@DXYS95 homie I don’t know if you understand a riffle shuffle because it’s literally random unless you perform a Farro shuffle which is perfectly spacing your cards one to one. Which takes a lot of precision. You’ll end up randomizing the cards just by having more than one card land in between each as you riffle.
@@madsvigan2898 i think you're confusing ethically wrong to cheating. It'd be called cheating if there was a ruling against it, but since there isn't, you'll just come out as a massive chode but not a cheater.
I see your point but after having so much arguments IRL saying stuff like this is good enough... beats things like: "you obviously dont get it" or "i dont know how you could understand it that way but it is clearly this way" atleast saying that you interpreted the thing wrong gives a chance of you being wrong and accepting someone else's point... in the end people dont like being wrong no matter what side it is just helps when both try to be more open minded about it.
What chat doesn't get is that you could do literally anything to your deck, even stack every single card perfectly how you want them without affecting the end result. This is because if your method of randomization REALLY "randomized" as per the word's definition, the state of the deck prior to the randomization should not affect how random it is after. Obviously nobody properly randomizes their deck during a duel though (takes like a couple dozen riffle shuffles each time) so Konami is just living in fantasyland where theory always holds perfectly true.
That's exactly the problem though. The fact that declumping works demonstrates that the deck isn't truly random. Obviously we're not after true cryptographic randomness, but effective psuedorandomness is still important, and if declumping effects the result, you're clearly not shuffling you're deck sufficiently, which is why it's cheating. The 'cheat' isn't the stacking, it's the failure to effectively shuffle ,which, for the record, doesn't take dozens of riffles. The average is seven for a 52 card deck to be functionally indistinguishable from true randomness, and less for a smaller deck. So the problem isn't that the deck was stacked, it's that after stacking it, you shuffled it once or twice and maybe cut it, rather than actually shuffling properlly.
@@jsd4574 That fault ultimately falls to your opponent tho, because they're the one who has the final cut + by doing so agrees that the deck is sufficiently randomized. If you are unhappy with how your opponent shuffled their deck, tell them to shuffle it again.
@@EpicKingofFail If you attempt to stack your deck and the opponent fails to properly randomise, they may have been able to prevent it, but you're still the one initiating the cheat and you still get punished for it, not them
I swear to god Ace Attorney is such a great game and "meme" template! You can make such great things with that! Just as here. Heard Vlad has done this. Well done!!!
"You cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling", searching not shuffling, I see my entire deck. I see the clump, you can declump. I don't see an issue as long as there is shuffling afterward. If you separate them, and then, shuffle, they randomize, the random chance of them being clumped together still exists... because its random. "Deck is stacked order, gets randomized = deck is now random" "Deck order is confirmed by searching, deck gets declumped, deck gets randomized = deck is now random" Random chance by definition is an unknown. The deck as long as it is unknown and random how it is currently ordered doesn't truly matter. Even if a game state rewound, and different cards were drawn, the cards could have been anything in the deck. People really need to get the notion of "pre-arranged""fate" out of their system yaknow.
I think this whole debate is because yugioh players have such bad shuffling habits that they think that "declumping" will actually affect the randomization of the deck
@@jadegrace1312 You know i never thought about if i was mana flooded or screwed to play a tutor just to search and while searching to declump then shuffle
If the odds are the same, then why do they bother declumping their own deck in the first place? Its definitely illegal, and if not; it definitely should be
Because declumping offers peace of mind and can actually save time. I've witnessed people after they search and they see 3 cards stuck together. Since they can choose whatever method to randomize after, they choose to do a quick pile shuffle and then riffle while randomizing after the search eating extra time. The funny thing is: its isn't uncommon where after they split it up and riffle, they get clumped back together.
Shuffling isn't actually random until like 100 shuffles though, 1 or 2 quick shuffles is most likely not gonna split those cards and at most U may lose 1 of the 3. Are U allowed to rearrange Ur deck at all in Yu-Gi-Oh?
The reason people call declumping cheating is because it does nothing if you shuffle sufficiently for randomization, but gives you an advantage if you shuffle insufficiently, meaning, from a purely logical standpoint, there is no reason to ever declump unless you plan on cheating. However, human are not purely Logical, but also emotional beings. Declumping puts your mind at rest, knowing that these 3 aren’t together anymore.
This being illegal implies that the position of cards in your deck while searching stay trackable even after shuffeling, which would conclude that every search gives you illegal information. If the position of a card you "stacked" would be trackable so would the random Nibiru you saw topdeck while going through the deck if it wasnt replaced by the "stacked" card before shuffeling.
It's not so much that it's trackable, it's that he is trying to consciously manipulate the deck to get a more even spread AFTER the randomization. If he's "properly" randomizing the deck, he shouldn't need to declump before randomizing.
@@LucianDevine this is the correct point. If anyone is actually doing any decent job of shuffling the deck, I WANT my clump to stay, because there's such a small chance of them sticking together after thorough shuffling.
@@Garchomp4LiFee The thing is: it does not matter if you de-clump or not in the first place, assuming you randomize properly. If it somehow makes you FEEL better to de-clump before you randomize, go for it. Doing so (AND not doing so) will not affect the end-result, if, again, randomized properly.
I would absolutely do the same, but if the deck is getting 100% randomised afterwards then it really shouldn’t matter as they shouldn’t be together anymore kekw
when shuffling, depending on the method used there is a chance that those 3 cards happen to stay together, whilst not likely it can and does happen, by moving the cards apart you then know for 100% fact that they where not together before shuffling. when I play and do any search effect and see cards clumped together I often split them up and then make sure that I heavily shuffle the deck
@@TheLiverpoolOwen ... So then you're purposefully altering the state of your deck order then. There's either no point in doing this, or you shouldn't be doing it since it helps your odds.
@@joshuagroom7068 the 3rd option is the cards are legitimately stuck together by static or gunk on the sleeves, in which case I suppose you should change sleeves, but that's not feasible in the middle of a duel. Other option is player superstition, in which case it also doesn't really matter, so who cares if they do or don't do it?
"You cannot pre-sort your Deck (Sorting Monsters/Spells/Traps, etc.) **Without thoroughly shuffling the deck afterwards.**" That last bit ends the entire argument right there
If it doesn't matter, if you declump the Deck, why even do it in the first place? There are just 2 options: A: The declumping lowers your chance to draw the card 2x in a row -> its stacking because you manipulate your Deck. B: After the shuffling process your Deck is randomized and the prior declumping has no effect on your deck order -> why even declump in the first place, if it doesn't matter?
It's option B and our human brains think that declumping influences the randomization. If properly randomized, it doesn't matter, but our brain doesn't like it.
Exactly this. You're shuffling anyway. That would do the "declumping." And randomized doesn't mean varied. If you were to flip a coin 10 times, it wouldn't be a perfect Heads -> Tails pattern. It's still entirely possible to get Heads 5 times in a row or only get Tails.
For me is just a mania, seen 3 card togheter while playing just triggers me, so i declump them just to calm myself then i riffle shuffle like 10 times and pass the deck to my opponent for cutting, so yeah the acty of shuffling the deck maskes the declumping miningless.
@@dkyu-gi-oh Unless you sit there doing a full shuffle at least 7 times every time you shuffle, then you aren't guy randomizing the cards, and the new locations depend on the previous locations. This is why casinos are constantly shuffling with shuffling machines.
Phoenix is probably the same type of judge that would rule your opponent can't chain their shadoll monsters effects if you had Magical Meltdown activated and you super poly'd their monsters away.
It clearly says that you CANNOT pre-sort your deck WITHOUT thoroughly shuffling afterwards. This therefore implies that you CAN pre-sort your deck IF you thoroughly shuffle afterwards. Declumping is technically pre-sorting - so you are 100% fine to do this.
how many people do this and then do not thoroughly shuffle, so we as opponents should thoroughly shuffle every time they give us an option to cut... bunch of time waste.
Vlad is doing a great job man. I love this content since I dont have enough time to join them streams anymore (studying etc). I hope this will never end :)
So I always thought that the conclusion from this video was that declumping wasn't cheating, but a Pokemon TCG player pointed out pretty effectively that you could totally use declumping as a way to run down the timer, even by a few seconds.
If there's a "Shuffle" button that randomizes the deck, no amount of stacking before pressing that button will affect random chance. Phoenix is super wrong. However, trying to "De-clump" your deck by separating cards is you trying to cheat. You're failing at it because the shuffling should undo your influence on your deck, but the intention is to influence your draws beyond random chance.
I agree that it has an influence on the shuffling, but that doesn't automatically rule it as cheating. Different methods of shuffling have varying effectiveness, the "right" ones are the ones pointed out by Konami. By experience, shuffling quickly in certain ways makes the deck have not only 3 copies _very_ close to eachother, but also in a similar order regarding more than 5 cards (specially notable when you shuffle a deck that has 3 copies of each card divided by groups, like starters or extenders, one after another), and yet most judges deem it sufficient. In cases like these, separating cards can help out spreading randomization more evenly throughout the deck, resulting in a "more randomized" spread than it otherwise would have been. Of course, this regards shuffling after separating cards and the opponent's cut.
@@gtdfg4594 I think the issue is more about the intention of the action the player is taking. They are putting their cards in a certain way that they deem could give them an advantage by making it, in their minds, less likely to, "Draw multiples of the same card." The shuffling afterwards really isn't the issue. It's what they're doing mechanically with intent to produce a more "ideal" outcome.
Well, no, if your deck is going to be thoroughly shuffled afterwards and then your opponent is also going to thoroughly shuffle it, then it really shouldn't matter. Its not something i do since i just don't pay attention to the order of my cards when i'm searching through my deck (its gonna get randomized afterwards anyways). I do think it affects random chance to some degree, but as far as what's currently written in the rule book, i don't see an issue with this whatsoever and it personally doesn't matter to me. The deck is gonna get thoroughly shuffled anyways. I think its the responsibility of the judge to rule when someone is stacking, and this doesn't exactly look like stacking, so i have no real issue with this. And if an opponent takes issue with it, they can spend as looooong as they're allowed to to shuffle your deck and ensure randomness. That being said, i'm not a judge. I'm just a casual player, lol.
@@four-en-tee oh I agree it really doesn't matter if the deck is getting properly randomized afterwards, realistically I disagree with this rule, but my viewpoints are not what is at hand here. We are talking about how konami judges are supposed to interpret cheating as per the official policy docs. Like I said the issue is not randomization, but what the intent of the player is, which is a huge part of how they determine what constitutes cheating.
I like how Phoenix mention the deck shuffling methods and you cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling but fails to see the most important part in the rules "You cannot pre-sort your deck without throroughly shuffing the deck afterwards" meaning you can declump your cards but you need to shuffle next, reading is not that hard, copium.
I think this is more of a Moral question than a legal one. IF truly randomized, why declump it anyway? If you declump it, you are expecting that the randomizing wont be so random, so you are actually stacking. This is more of a problem in Remote format, where the opponent can't shuffle your deck. In real life, the problem will be more of the opponents than yours, as he can always shuffle your deck which might result in clumping.
The BEST part about this is "Your dekc must be randomized using an accepted shuffling method: riffle, PILE, hindu. Yeah, I'm sorry to tell you, but PILE shuffeling is not randomizing the deck. if you do THAT, that's either illegal, or the people who came up with that section are EXTRAORDINARILY stupid.
It's totally possible for 3x the same card ending up right next to each other. The cardboard does not care about the printing on it. Heck, to take it to the absolute extrem: The deck might be in perfectly "stacked" order after you shuffle it. The chances for that are astronomically (and I chose that word for a reason, there's a higher amount of atoms in the universe than there are ways to order a 60 card deck) low, but it CAN happen. "De-clumping" is not cheating if you properly randomize the deck after doing so. BY DEFINITION the card will be at a RANDOM place of the deck anyways, so nobody cares where you put that card before you did so. For that same reason, you'd not HAVE to de-clump at all, it's only your illogical brain telling you that it "feels better" when you do so, which is just a miss-conception of the human brain. We're VERY bad at assuming counter-intuitive things. The best way to visualize that is again, a completely stacked deck. When you build a deck (or at least when I do) I order them by SOMETHING (Creatures, Spells, Lands, in my case) After doing that, I shuffle the deck. The cards wont be in the same place anymore. The logic of calling a player who de-clumps a cheater would be the same logic you'd use to accuse me of cheating because I ordered my deck when I build it. It's absolutely non-sensical.
I feel like the point that should have been raised is. "Why are you separating those cards?" You have no need to separate them as you are about to shuffle? The shuffle as discussed randomise your deck so there location at that point is irelevant. The only reason to separate cards would be to alter the percentage of drawing the same cards or like for like cards togther. Which at that point if your alternating your deck to give you a better result during a shuffle you're soft cheating I feel.
the thing is the same result can be achieved by shuffling your deck really thoroughly and nobody has an issue with that. declumping is just a shortcut to save time. unless of course you prefer to sit there and let your opponent shuffle until they know they are no longer clumped (which is legal)
@@fazdingo29 the shuffle should always be enough to randomise the deck. So there is no reason to "de clump" or "clump" cards togther. If the deck is randomised it's random. Unless you explain what reason you have for de clumping other then increasing the probability of not seeing certain cards togther? But that would means your manipulating the chances of a better outcome
I love that farfa is doing the floss dance but only half way correct, it has that cool uncle who tries a bit too hard with memes but doesn't take it too seriously vibe
I used to declump out of habit in Weiss Schwarz, a game where damage is entirely dependent on the deck state, and a judge friend told me to stop doing that. According to him it is ultimately up to the judges' interpretation of the rules so it could be up to your luck if your opponent decides to shark you and how the judge you meet interprets the rulebook. So just to be on the safe side I entirely cut out this habit to avoid any and all bullshit this could bring about. Also why isn't Phoenix just Phoenix lol.
pokemon tcg has specific rules against 'declumping', so it would be cheating in that game, but the konami rules make it very unclear - i think what coder is saying makes sense, but if konami wants to clarify it they should either specifically say declumping is not allowed, or do nothing i guess
That would only be true if you did not shuffle the deck after doing so. If you randomize the cards, they WILL be random. It does not matter where you put them. If you stack your entire deck and then shuffle it about 7x , you're good. that's not stacking or "affecting the randomness". Being random is a binary thing. Either it is, or it is not random. You changing the position of cards in the deck PRIOR to that process has no impact on the end-result.
Point: ROTA does not let you alter the order of your cards in your deck, it let's you find a card.... by 'declumping' you're doing a game action that's not allowed.
If my opponent ever complains about me doing this I'm just going to say "ok then, sit there and watch me do a pile shuffle mid game and this loss of time is on your hands."
the thing is this is absolutely undetectable. My friend always puts all his bricks to the bottom when shuffling and claims he never draws them this way because nobody cuts like all but 3 cards, it's generally cut roughly in the middle.
It depends on who does it really. If someone is known to keep track of and has a less than healthy sense of competition then they may need a bit more monitoring.
@@firepuppies4086 then thats the opponents fault for not cutting shuffling his/hers opponents deck after a shuffle. You are allowed to cut, shuffle a deck after your opponent is done with searching/randomizing their deck.
@@firepuppies4086 their are going to be cheaters, but the game literally give you the tools for this specific kind of cheating. If you dont like cheaters dont play these types of games. Just like anything, if you dont pay attention and or look away, thats the moment anyone will need, this is what you mom teaches you so your wallet doesnt get stolen, come on now....Like any law, its not a safeguard....its your responsibility to protect yourself. Nothing you can do about shitty people. All you can do is abuse the tools given to you to safeguard urself, hence .... shuffle the deck, dont trust anyone. But if anything I think its just sad that people have less common sense now.
This is one of those silly things where if it DOES matter, it's cheating, but it DOESN'T matter, so it's not, but also there's no reason to do it. Same with pile shuffling!
3:07 your opponent doesn't shuffle your deck afterwards. They only cut. And you can make it that They cut in your favor. I have created shuffling methods that can allow you to stack your deck after searching and shuffling and your opponent cutting. It's wrong to use these methods. But they exist.
Weaving is cheating. The reason behind it being a form of cheating, is that shuffling thoroughly should completely randomize your deck, therefore making any adjustments to the order of the cards before shuffling would not affect the outcome of the shuffled deck. This means that if you rearrange your cards before you shuffle them, you must not be thoroughly shuffling your deck in the first place.
I kinda get what the chet callers are talking about. In the scenario where there so happens to be 3 card stuck together than the duelist would be incentivize to split them because this would effectively mean that this three of card would either always be stacked together and drawn 3 times in a row or they would never actually see this three of card because the cards are always moving together.
@@Marcusjnmc depends. Most people shuffle by clumps. If you observe shuffling amongst most people they aren’t shuffling very precisely. Unlike something like power shuffling. Although in some advance cases power shuffling can be used to stack. Regardless. It’s pretty petty to call out uncumbling if your opponent is given the option to shuffle the deck.
While this may not be cheating it is definitely a waste of time. If the deck is going to be randomized anyway there is no reason to spend time "declumping". I feel like this just enables slow play.
Nobody is putting a deck in a shuffling machine though, if stuff is clumped it could stick together through a halfhearted shuffling, especially if 2-3 sleeves are stuck to each other. In theory none of this should happen but sleeves wear out, get sticky or have static all the time and most shuffling methods don't fix this by themselves.
it isn't a waste of time because you aren't technically randomizing your deck by the definition of random. in most cases those cards will not be declumped during the average attempt at shuffling
@@fazdingo29 I understand what you and Luminous are saying but my issue with that argument is that you can't prove that those clumped cards would not have naturally been the cards you would draw. Once you start deliberately moving cards around the deck ceases to be random because randomness implies a lack of purpose or intent with the way you are shuffle. If you see three ash blossoms together and move them around because you don't like that they're in close proximity then that is not random. I don't want this to turn into a war, because this is just a game so I'll leave it at that. We can just agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
If you're insisting that shuffling at the end randomizes your deck properly, then there would be no reason to declump your cards. You're declumping them to spread them out because no shuffle method is perfect. Just saying. Bring me in on VC
I mean I would agree with you unless the cards are actually stuck together for whatever reason and then separating makes sense since they may remain together. I have been in virtual games where my opponent drew Ash Blossom every turn when I checked the replay and to be frank from that standpoint I kinda like declumping.
Cards can be stuck together unnaturally, eg. due to moisture, when they're put into the deck. Ash blossoms are a playset, you usually put them together when you put them into the deck, it absolutely makes sense you want them to be separated before you shuffle, because otherwise your shuffle isn't legit.
people are lazy & don't thoroughly shuffle even though they should, the opponent's shuffle is their responsibility in maintaining the gamestate by ensuring the deck is getting properly randomised, and people who are good at it can stack/declump while shuffling while looking like a completely normal shuffle, so even though declumping like this looks more sus any opponent should really be trying as hard to randomise the deck as though they knew 100% the opponent's deck had been stacked the biggest issue here is the time rules, particularly towards end of time the randomness of the game state is maintained worse & worse as players rush through steps/attempt to at least be seen to be going through actions quickly so that they don't lose to a judge call on stalling but the current time rules mess with the integrity of the game in a bunch of ways anyway, even without this
@@igotveemon For unnatural causes like that I totally agree. With that said I feel like this should be done before a match right? My point pertains to when you shuffle before a duel, and by random change copies of a card are clumped. In that case it's perfectly valid in the definition of randomness. Randomness does not equal spread apart exclusively.
@@Anans1_Spyd3r agreed with all your points. If the cards are unnaturally stuck, then yeah of course separate and clean your sleeves! The sad thing is with virtual sims their "randomness" actually means all cards are spread out. It's a fun excersize in a coding program. Have the computer randomly generte numbers between 1 and 1000 a total of 1000 times. Then separate those numbers into 4 columns (1-250, 251-500, 501-750, 751-1000). You will see that these four groups all end up being 25% of the total numbers meaning it's not random. These virtual sims use the same computing logic sadly.
That phoenix dude sounds like a complete brainlet, Coder literally said not to take the policy documents to the T, then goes on the call, and follows it to the T.
No matter what you do to the cards in your deck, pre-shuffle is legal. Since shuffle re-randomizes the deck, as long as the decks isn’t manipulated during the shuffle step. If you said during the search, you said “I’m gonna split these cards” split the cards, then move to shuffle step it’s legal.
My question is, if de-clumping or rearranging cards before shuffling & randomizing the deck doesn’t matter, then why bother to de-clump in the first place? If you truly believe it doesn’t matter nor it changes the odds then why are you doing it? I think that’s why it comes off as disingenuous or suss to some.
The policy doc states you cannot pre-order your deck WITHOUT shuffling your deck properly. Therefore, not cheating as long as the deck is shuffled after the de-clumping.
if the shuffling is actually random, it doesn't matter what order the cards were in beforehand if it's not random, the problem is with the shuffling, not the order of the cards beforehand
if someone else Drew 3 Ash back to back they would go "That's Yugioh Bro, that sucks" But when their cards get Clumped together they go "Hold on, Let me De-Clump" ... Like WTF
when phoenix says that if you declump and then shuffle it affects randomization: it doesnt. if it's randomized you can't trace back to the original state. and once you declump and shuffle (randomly) you can't "de-shuffle" to get to the original card sequence
Considering that you are doing some action outside of the search effect you can be called out for slow play since you are not immediately resolving the “search effect in play” as there is no other play or action u can commit to while searching…
To me it always made sense that it's fine to do this by the simple fact that if we assume it's illegal, you could just pretend to not have found what you were searching for, shuffle exactly where clumped cards are, and etc. It might seem tough at the beginning but with some practice you will be able to do it effortlessly. There isn't really a way to prove someone is declumping so they should just allow it. I even see no problem to lay out every single card in your deck and stack it however you want so long as you shuffle afterwards. I don't even remotely understand why people think that shouldn't be allowed.
above the blue highlighted bit. that's what you need to read. that's the exact thing you're refering to in this conversation. in other words as long as you thoroughly shuffle afterwards you are fine since you are refering to pre-sorting essentially while doing your search.
Was looking for a video where you talked about a specific pro cheating, this aint the one I remember but Yooooo, if you read this comment you have slimmed down since you made this video. Good job man.
You can't move cards when rota is being used. The duel has started. You can't grab a brick and put it on a bottom or top to avoid from being drawn when your opponent shuffles and cuts. It increases the chance of the brick to be lost in the middle by putting it on the ends.
You should be able to grab your 3 nibirus during side deck. Place them let say top middle and bottom... then proceed to shuffle. Then your opponent shuffles and the game starts. At this point, you have no more knowledge of where the 3 nibirus are since they have been shuffle previous to the game.
If you use rota, you can take a look at your deck.. it's not illegal and if you noticed cards are stacked.. like your 3 nibirus in the same spot. You can shuffle the deck to attempt to randomize them into possible draws. However, you are not allowed to just grab the 3 nibirus and hand pick them into different locations. This most be done on a shuffle technique without knowledge of the cards positions.
So how did no one mention that the policy straight up says you can’t pre-sort your deck without thoroughly shuffling afterward. To me that means you can rearrange your deck during the search as long as you shuffle and your opponent shuffles after the fact
By the people who say “de-clumping is illegal” logic I think that even if we *not* de-clumping the card it would also affect the randomization because you already *saw* that those 3 cards are together which literally mean you know that there are a change you can draw one after another = knowing what happen next = cheating, so in fact de-clumping those cards make it so it even more randomize that it ever was
it can't be "more random" lmao. It either is, or it isn't random, there is no in-between. Non-Math-People and chance / probability is always such a funny combination.
Changing the initial state before the randomization process (shuffle), should not change the randomness of the result. Of course that the end result will be diferent, but is still random... so, whatever. The only thing you may argue is about how random your randomization process actually is..
even then saying how random something is is the same as saying that something is close to infinite, it's either random or it isn't and it isn't actually random at all, that just happens to be the buzzword that people typically use incorrectly. the term that should be used is uncertain and since one way or another the final result is uncertain it doesn't matter whether you declump or not therefore it's allowed
Is there any point to "declumping" if the deck just gets shuffled any way? I mean when I see clumped cards off a search, I'm like oh better shuffle better, so I give it like five extra shuffles.
Oh man this topic...fun...if I remember right judges like to complain that adjusting positions of cards while searching even if you shuffle after and your opponent cuts the deck is still manipulating the deck to your advantage. Some will let it go, but most will say you aren't allowed to adjust the position of any cards during a search for any reason as it is a manipulation of the randomization.
Dude, I wish I wasn't half asleep while we were having this discussion, my explanations were so terribly worded LOL
I love you
Take my babies
Hiya coder!
You did great sweetie
Thanks for putting up with farfa's madness for our sake :)
The best way to truly determine whether or not it is cheating is by hiring Dream's rocket scientist to determine whether or not the deck is truly randomized in the event of declumping.
lmao
I'm not a scientist, but do have a physics degree. If artificially affecting probability is considered cheating, then, yes, "declumping" is cheating. Having three cards stuck together is a valid random state. Just because they are the same card does not mean that their arrangement is not the result of a random process. The only way to "declump" them legally would be to simply shuffle the deck without splitting the clumped cards up first. The end result of a properly shuffled deck is still a random state. Mathematically, it should be okay. However, these are physical objects, and I'm sure all of us are familiar with cards or sheets of paper getting stuck together or being mildly attracted to each other. "Declumping" would articially break this kind of interaction. I'm not sure the significance this interaction would actually have on the state of the shuffled deck though. Best case would be to just shuffle, have your opponent cut the deck, and shuffle again.
Edit: lol ignore this, I read another comment saying Konami has stated that a deck must be thoroughly shuffled after any sort of pre-sorting. So "declumping" is okay as long as it's properly shuffled afterward. I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh in almost 8 years and just randomly stumbled upon this video.
@@aether9083 &&
@@aether9083 g
@@aether9083 *
I love how Coder was Phoenix and Phoenix was Edgeworth
THEY HAD ONE JOB
I think it's cuz Coder was defending and Phoenix was prosecuting
*stacks deck during ROTA search, just to stall. JOKINGLY*
I didn't even KNOW I was stacking!
They sent me no mail no message
If they can do it while playing at a reasonable pace then go for it. Also PSA just call a judge for slow play, just do it, if you think your opponent is slow playing you then they probably are. just call the judge
Jokingly making a video saying you did not stall for time. JOKINGLY
Doesn't the second bullet of "You cannot pre-sort your Deck without thoroughly shuffling the Deck afterwards" imply that it's okay to sort your deck during searching? The implication seems to be that you can do anything you want with card order so long as you shuffle afterwards.
THANK YOU
I was about to make this comment. The part that says “thoroughly shuffling AFTERWORDS” is what sells it for me
Yup, that's correct.
HOWEVER, in order to truly randomize a 40 cards deck you need to perform more than 20 riffle shuffles, which no one does because it would take too long.
Therefore, "declumping" your deck will have an effect on the deck you present to your opponent (which equals to cheating, somewhat).
If your opponent happens to do this (which is very rare), take your sweet time to shuffle their deck
@@DXYS95 homie I don’t know if you understand a riffle shuffle because it’s literally random unless you perform a Farro shuffle which is perfectly spacing your cards one to one. Which takes a lot of precision. You’ll end up randomizing the cards just by having more than one card land in between each as you riffle.
@@burnpisces7733 I don't think you understand shuffle theory. You might want to look into it
Gotta love children's card game... So simple and straightforward....
@Alu Card and so sarcastic are you XD
Idiots:”It’S fOr KiDs”
Also idiots: “I don’t understand this game, so confusing!”
The kids: “wtf is this boomer bs???”
Gotta love Farfa... So quite and mature
well its just farfa being stupid. "I see some cards together I dont like, so I change that".
If he cant see thats cheating, then he is rather stupid.
@@madsvigan2898 i think you're confusing ethically wrong to cheating. It'd be called cheating if there was a ruling against it, but since there isn't, you'll just come out as a massive chode but not a cheater.
"I interpreted the thing wrong" is the saltiest way to say "you're right".
but what if i was wrong but you're still not right?
I see your point but after having so much arguments IRL saying stuff like this is good enough... beats things like: "you obviously dont get it" or "i dont know how you could understand it that way but it is clearly this way" atleast saying that you interpreted the thing wrong gives a chance of you being wrong and accepting someone else's point... in the end people dont like being wrong no matter what side it is just helps when both try to be more open minded about it.
Anything in the entire *WORLD* to avoid saying; "I was wrong."
He truly is Edgeworth
What chat doesn't get is that you could do literally anything to your deck, even stack every single card perfectly how you want them without affecting the end result. This is because if your method of randomization REALLY "randomized" as per the word's definition, the state of the deck prior to the randomization should not affect how random it is after.
Obviously nobody properly randomizes their deck during a duel though (takes like a couple dozen riffle shuffles each time) so Konami is just living in fantasyland where theory always holds perfectly true.
That's exactly the problem though. The fact that declumping works demonstrates that the deck isn't truly random. Obviously we're not after true cryptographic randomness, but effective psuedorandomness is still important, and if declumping effects the result, you're clearly not shuffling you're deck sufficiently, which is why it's cheating. The 'cheat' isn't the stacking, it's the failure to effectively shuffle ,which, for the record, doesn't take dozens of riffles. The average is seven for a 52 card deck to be functionally indistinguishable from true randomness, and less for a smaller deck. So the problem isn't that the deck was stacked, it's that after stacking it, you shuffled it once or twice and maybe cut it, rather than actually shuffling properlly.
Based
@@jsd4574 That fault ultimately falls to your opponent tho, because they're the one who has the final cut + by doing so agrees that the deck is sufficiently randomized. If you are unhappy with how your opponent shuffled their deck, tell them to shuffle it again.
@@EpicKingofFail If you attempt to stack your deck and the opponent fails to properly randomise, they may have been able to prevent it, but you're still the one initiating the cheat and you still get punished for it, not them
Failure of your opponent to undo your stack doesn't excuse you from said stacking
I swear to god Ace Attorney is such a great game and "meme" template! You can make such great things with that! Just as here. Heard Vlad has done this. Well done!!!
Kinda of a shame the guy named Phoenix was the one accusing Farfa, it would make more sense to have Coder as Edgeworth and Phoenix as, well, Phoenix
"You cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling", searching not shuffling, I see my entire deck. I see the clump, you can declump. I don't see an issue as long as there is shuffling afterward.
If you separate them, and then, shuffle, they randomize, the random chance of them being clumped together still exists... because its random.
"Deck is stacked order, gets randomized = deck is now random"
"Deck order is confirmed by searching, deck gets declumped, deck gets randomized = deck is now random"
Random chance by definition is an unknown. The deck as long as it is unknown and random how it is currently ordered doesn't truly matter. Even if a game state rewound, and different cards were drawn, the cards could have been anything in the deck. People really need to get the notion of "pre-arranged""fate" out of their system yaknow.
I think this whole debate is because yugioh players have such bad shuffling habits that they think that "declumping" will actually affect the randomization of the deck
@@jadegrace1312 You know i never thought about if i was mana flooded or screwed to play a tutor just to search and while searching to declump then shuffle
If the odds are the same, then why do they bother declumping their own deck in the first place?
Its definitely illegal, and if not; it definitely should be
Because declumping offers peace of mind and can actually save time. I've witnessed people after they search and they see 3 cards stuck together. Since they can choose whatever method to randomize after, they choose to do a quick pile shuffle and then riffle while randomizing after the search eating extra time.
The funny thing is: its isn't uncommon where after they split it up and riffle, they get clumped back together.
Shuffling isn't actually random until like 100 shuffles though, 1 or 2 quick shuffles is most likely not gonna split those cards and at most U may lose 1 of the 3. Are U allowed to rearrange Ur deck at all in Yu-Gi-Oh?
The reason people call declumping cheating is because it does nothing if you shuffle sufficiently for randomization, but gives you an advantage if you shuffle insufficiently, meaning, from a purely logical standpoint, there is no reason to ever declump unless you plan on cheating.
However, human are not purely Logical, but also emotional beings. Declumping puts your mind at rest, knowing that these 3 aren’t together anymore.
Whatever you do to your deck, riffle shuffle 7 times and its fully randomized! So the declumping doesn't even matter.
Light played speedrun
I mean, it does but not enough to matter
And then the opponent calls the judge for stalling while you are on your 5th or 6th shuffle.
If it doesnt matter then why do it :)
And people didn't take into account that clumping might happen again after the last cut...
Honestly. This sounds like something a Dragon Link user would cry about.
This being illegal implies that the position of cards in your deck while searching stay trackable even after shuffeling, which would conclude that every search gives you illegal information. If the position of a card you "stacked" would be trackable so would the random Nibiru you saw topdeck while going through the deck if it wasnt replaced by the "stacked" card before shuffeling.
It's not so much that it's trackable, it's that he is trying to consciously manipulate the deck to get a more even spread AFTER the randomization.
If he's "properly" randomizing the deck, he shouldn't need to declump before randomizing.
@@LucianDevine this is the correct point. If anyone is actually doing any decent job of shuffling the deck, I WANT my clump to stay, because there's such a small chance of them sticking together after thorough shuffling.
@@Garchomp4LiFee The thing is: it does not matter if you de-clump or not in the first place, assuming you randomize properly. If it somehow makes you FEEL better to de-clump before you randomize, go for it. Doing so (AND not doing so) will not affect the end-result, if, again, randomized properly.
There are effects that send you a group of cards to the bottom of the deck in any order you want, I think Konami knows
Vlad is just such a good editor widepeepoHappy
You have to shuffle properly afterwards anyway, so it shouldn't matter
if the heart of the cards want you to draw the same card three times in a row, you have to have faith
This might just be the most "AKCHUALLY" ruling discussions i have ever witnessed lmao
I would absolutely do the same, but if the deck is getting 100% randomised afterwards then it really shouldn’t matter as they shouldn’t be together anymore kekw
when shuffling, depending on the method used there is a chance that those 3 cards happen to stay together, whilst not likely it can and does happen, by moving the cards apart you then know for 100% fact that they where not together before shuffling. when I play and do any search effect and see cards clumped together I often split them up and then make sure that I heavily shuffle the deck
@@TheLiverpoolOwen ... So then you're purposefully altering the state of your deck order then. There's either no point in doing this, or you shouldn't be doing it since it helps your odds.
know people be lazy shuffling though, sometimes riffle shuffle pass & opponent tap deck, cut pass back, and that was pre covid
@@joshuagroom7068 the 3rd option is the cards are legitimately stuck together by static or gunk on the sleeves, in which case I suppose you should change sleeves, but that's not feasible in the middle of a duel. Other option is player superstition, in which case it also doesn't really matter, so who cares if they do or don't do it?
@@TheMatt_SD There are two reasons to do it: superstition and cheating.
Don't mind me, I'm just "declumping" my Harpie's Feather Duster to the top and my Red-Eyes Fusion to the bottom
And then your opponent shuffles your deck and you draw red-eyes fusion anyway
@@louisfriend9592 this
"You cannot pre-sort your Deck (Sorting Monsters/Spells/Traps, etc.) **Without thoroughly shuffling the deck afterwards.**"
That last bit ends the entire argument right there
but your telling the yugioh community to actually read LOL
If it doesn't matter, if you declump the Deck, why even do it in the first place?
There are just 2 options:
A: The declumping lowers your chance to draw the card 2x in a row -> its stacking because you manipulate your Deck.
B: After the shuffling process your Deck is randomized and the prior declumping has no effect on your deck order -> why even declump in the first place, if it doesn't matter?
It's option B and our human brains think that declumping influences the randomization. If properly randomized, it doesn't matter, but our brain doesn't like it.
Exactly this. You're shuffling anyway. That would do the "declumping." And randomized doesn't mean varied.
If you were to flip a coin 10 times, it wouldn't be a perfect Heads -> Tails pattern. It's still entirely possible to get Heads 5 times in a row or only get Tails.
For me is just a mania, seen 3 card togheter while playing just triggers me, so i declump them just to calm myself then i riffle shuffle like 10 times and pass the deck to my opponent for cutting, so yeah the acty of shuffling the deck maskes the declumping miningless.
@@dkyu-gi-oh Unless you sit there doing a full shuffle at least 7 times every time you shuffle, then you aren't guy randomizing the cards, and the new locations depend on the previous locations. This is why casinos are constantly shuffling with shuffling machines.
@@Ms666slayer that's a really good explanation.
Farfa flossing is by far leagues more sus than him declumping, that's for sure.
He JOKINGLY stacked his deck
Phoenix is probably the same type of judge that would rule your opponent can't chain their shadoll monsters effects if you had Magical Meltdown activated and you super poly'd their monsters away.
It clearly says that you CANNOT pre-sort your deck WITHOUT thoroughly shuffling afterwards. This therefore implies that you CAN pre-sort your deck IF you thoroughly shuffle afterwards. Declumping is technically pre-sorting - so you are 100% fine to do this.
how many people do this and then do not thoroughly shuffle, so we as opponents should thoroughly shuffle every time they give us an option to cut... bunch of time waste.
Vlad is doing a great job man. I love this content since I dont have enough time to join them streams anymore (studying etc). I hope this will never end :)
So I always thought that the conclusion from this video was that declumping wasn't cheating, but a Pokemon TCG player pointed out pretty effectively that you could totally use declumping as a way to run down the timer, even by a few seconds.
If there's a "Shuffle" button that randomizes the deck, no amount of stacking before pressing that button will affect random chance. Phoenix is super wrong.
However, trying to "De-clump" your deck by separating cards is you trying to cheat. You're failing at it because the shuffling should undo your influence on your deck, but the intention is to influence your draws beyond random chance.
this is probably the best way to put it.
I agree that it has an influence on the shuffling, but that doesn't automatically rule it as cheating.
Different methods of shuffling have varying effectiveness, the "right" ones are the ones pointed out by Konami.
By experience, shuffling quickly in certain ways makes the deck have not only 3 copies _very_ close to eachother, but also in a similar order regarding more than 5 cards (specially notable when you shuffle a deck that has 3 copies of each card divided by groups, like starters or extenders, one after another), and yet most judges deem it sufficient. In cases like these, separating cards can help out spreading randomization more evenly throughout the deck, resulting in a "more randomized" spread than it otherwise would have been.
Of course, this regards shuffling after separating cards and the opponent's cut.
@@gtdfg4594 I think the issue is more about the intention of the action the player is taking. They are putting their cards in a certain way that they deem could give them an advantage by making it, in their minds, less likely to, "Draw multiples of the same card." The shuffling afterwards really isn't the issue. It's what they're doing mechanically with intent to produce a more "ideal" outcome.
Well, no, if your deck is going to be thoroughly shuffled afterwards and then your opponent is also going to thoroughly shuffle it, then it really shouldn't matter.
Its not something i do since i just don't pay attention to the order of my cards when i'm searching through my deck (its gonna get randomized afterwards anyways). I do think it affects random chance to some degree, but as far as what's currently written in the rule book, i don't see an issue with this whatsoever and it personally doesn't matter to me. The deck is gonna get thoroughly shuffled anyways. I think its the responsibility of the judge to rule when someone is stacking, and this doesn't exactly look like stacking, so i have no real issue with this. And if an opponent takes issue with it, they can spend as looooong as they're allowed to to shuffle your deck and ensure randomness.
That being said, i'm not a judge. I'm just a casual player, lol.
@@four-en-tee oh I agree it really doesn't matter if the deck is getting properly randomized afterwards, realistically I disagree with this rule, but my viewpoints are not what is at hand here. We are talking about how konami judges are supposed to interpret cheating as per the official policy docs. Like I said the issue is not randomization, but what the intent of the player is, which is a huge part of how they determine what constitutes cheating.
I like how Phoenix mention the deck shuffling methods and you cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling but fails to see the most important part in the rules "You cannot pre-sort your deck without throroughly shuffing the deck afterwards" meaning you can declump your cards but you need to shuffle next, reading is not that hard, copium.
This discussion was the Schrödinger’s cat thesis of Yugioh.
except for the people that can read, however hard that is
At the end of the day, what we really need is a philosophy essay answering the question, "What is a randomized deck?"
Vsauce video: "What is random?"
I think this is more of a Moral question than a legal one.
IF truly randomized, why declump it anyway? If you declump it, you are expecting that the randomizing wont be so random, so you are actually stacking.
This is more of a problem in Remote format, where the opponent can't shuffle your deck.
In real life, the problem will be more of the opponents than yours, as he can always shuffle your deck which might result in clumping.
Good point.
Cause shuffling is not a true randomization
The BEST part about this is "Your dekc must be randomized using an accepted shuffling method: riffle, PILE, hindu.
Yeah, I'm sorry to tell you, but PILE shuffeling is not randomizing the deck. if you do THAT, that's either illegal, or the people who came up with that section are EXTRAORDINARILY stupid.
It's totally possible for 3x the same card ending up right next to each other.
The cardboard does not care about the printing on it. Heck, to take it to the absolute extrem:
The deck might be in perfectly "stacked" order after you shuffle it.
The chances for that are astronomically (and I chose that word for a reason, there's a higher amount of atoms in the universe than there are ways to order a 60 card deck) low, but it CAN happen.
"De-clumping" is not cheating if you properly randomize the deck after doing so. BY DEFINITION the card will be at a RANDOM place of the deck anyways, so nobody cares where you put that card before you did so. For that same reason, you'd not HAVE to de-clump at all, it's only your illogical brain telling you that it "feels better" when you do so, which is just a miss-conception of the human brain. We're VERY bad at assuming counter-intuitive things.
The best way to visualize that is again, a completely stacked deck. When you build a deck (or at least when I do) I order them by SOMETHING (Creatures, Spells, Lands, in my case) After doing that, I shuffle the deck. The cards wont be in the same place anymore. The logic of calling a player who de-clumps a cheater would be the same logic you'd use to accuse me of cheating because I ordered my deck when I build it. It's absolutely non-sensical.
Lovely work on this one. Had a big stupid smile on my face during the Ace Attorney bit.
It actually is written in the rulebook to NOT do that, but everyone does
I feel like the point that should have been raised is. "Why are you separating those cards?" You have no need to separate them as you are about to shuffle? The shuffle as discussed randomise your deck so there location at that point is irelevant. The only reason to separate cards would be to alter the percentage of drawing the same cards or like for like cards togther.
Which at that point if your alternating your deck to give you a better result during a shuffle you're soft cheating I feel.
Yeaa EXACTLY.
This!
the thing is the same result can be achieved by shuffling your deck really thoroughly and nobody has an issue with that. declumping is just a shortcut to save time.
unless of course you prefer to sit there and let your opponent shuffle until they know they are no longer clumped (which is legal)
@@fazdingo29 the shuffle should always be enough to randomise the deck. So there is no reason to "de clump" or "clump" cards togther. If the deck is randomised it's random. Unless you explain what reason you have for de clumping other then increasing the probability of not seeing certain cards togther? But that would means your manipulating the chances of a better outcome
@@fazdingo29 yea dude I'd rather let homie shuffle till he's content than watch him declump. Something bout that doesn't sit right w me
I love that farfa is doing the floss dance but only half way correct, it has that cool uncle who tries a bit too hard with memes but doesn't take it too seriously vibe
>Does cringe dancing on cam to flex
me: This guy’s a legend
I used to declump out of habit in Weiss Schwarz, a game where damage is entirely dependent on the deck state, and a judge friend told me to stop doing that. According to him it is ultimately up to the judges' interpretation of the rules so it could be up to your luck if your opponent decides to shark you and how the judge you meet interprets the rulebook. So just to be on the safe side I entirely cut out this habit to avoid any and all bullshit this could bring about.
Also why isn't Phoenix just Phoenix lol.
pokemon tcg has specific rules against 'declumping', so it would be cheating in that game, but the konami rules make it very unclear - i think what coder is saying makes sense, but if konami wants to clarify it they should either specifically say declumping is not allowed, or do nothing i guess
Is there a rule on declumping because Im reading through the doc and I can't see any
@@dandok3996 Their isnt, hes just spreading false information
If they had that rule, the only thing that confirms is that the rule-maker had no idea what they were doing, because that does not make any sense.
"You cannot *check* or arrange cards while *shuffling*"
I asked judges about this and as long as you shuffle after it isnt cheating
the thing is, you can also declump on the first 2 riffle shuffles knowing about where the clumped cards are
it's literally the second bullet point there, you're pre-sorting the deck and then shuffling the deck afterwards.
The thing about randomness is that you can sometimes have 3 of the same card next to each other. You are making the deck less random by 'declumping'.
That would only be true if you did not shuffle the deck after doing so. If you randomize the cards, they WILL be random. It does not matter where you put them. If you stack your entire deck and then shuffle it about 7x , you're good. that's not stacking or "affecting the randomness".
Being random is a binary thing. Either it is, or it is not random. You changing the position of cards in the deck PRIOR to that process has no impact on the end-result.
Point: ROTA does not let you alter the order of your cards in your deck, it let's you find a card.... by 'declumping' you're doing a game action that's not allowed.
You gotta spread those aleisters out when they are clumped 😇
spread aleister you say?
Nah m8 back to back aleister is the way for sure
Wide spread aleister
*A L E I S T E R*
bro, can I just say...I LOVE this editing. God bless Vlad.
I am pretty sure that Dzeef said not to do this in a "your first Tournament" video, which is probably where chat got it from.
Damn Dzeef
If my opponent ever complains about me doing this I'm just going to say "ok then, sit there and watch me do a pile shuffle mid game and this loss of time is on your hands."
Staring
Distantcoder as Phoenix Wright
Phoenix as Miles Edgeworth
And farfa as judge
the thing is this is absolutely undetectable. My friend always puts all his bricks to the bottom when shuffling and claims he never draws them this way because nobody cuts like all but 3 cards, it's generally cut roughly in the middle.
that's because cutting isn't randomizing lmao, if your friend stacks his cards and then doesn't shuffle he is cheating
I declump constantly, the deck is fully shuffled after so ho gives a shit, I'm not more likely to draw that card now
It depends on who does it really. If someone is known to keep track of and has a less than healthy sense of competition then they may need a bit more monitoring.
@@firepuppies4086 then thats the opponents fault for not cutting shuffling his/hers opponents deck after a shuffle. You are allowed to cut, shuffle a deck after your opponent is done with searching/randomizing their deck.
@@SkumleBones issue is, my statement applies to the opponent who is cutting.
@@firepuppies4086 their are going to be cheaters, but the game literally give you the tools for this specific kind of cheating. If you dont like cheaters dont play these types of games. Just like anything, if you dont pay attention and or look away, thats the moment anyone will need, this is what you mom teaches you so your wallet doesnt get stolen, come on now....Like any law, its not a safeguard....its your responsibility to protect yourself. Nothing you can do about shitty people. All you can do is abuse the tools given to you to safeguard urself, hence .... shuffle the deck, dont trust anyone. But if anything I think its just sad that people have less common sense now.
@@SkumleBones ... did you just say not to play the game if you don't like cheaters? That does not look good on the game, if you are at THAT point.
This is one of those silly things where if it DOES matter, it's cheating, but it DOESN'T matter, so it's not, but also there's no reason to do it. Same with pile shuffling!
Farfa JOKINGLY stacked his deck
3:07 your opponent doesn't shuffle your deck afterwards. They only cut. And you can make it that They cut in your favor. I have created shuffling methods that can allow you to stack your deck after searching and shuffling and your opponent cutting. It's wrong to use these methods. But they exist.
This is such good editing CLAP CLAP Vlad!!!
Weaving is cheating. The reason behind it being a form of cheating, is that shuffling thoroughly should completely randomize your deck, therefore making any adjustments to the order of the cards before shuffling would not affect the outcome of the shuffled deck. This means that if you rearrange your cards before you shuffle them, you must not be thoroughly shuffling your deck in the first place.
But your opponent shuffles the deck.
I have been farmed for content what the hell???
2:04
Judge agrees
Farfa proceeds to blast the judges ears with his confirmation
Okay but consider that artifacts are literally illegal to set in the S/T zone
Why though?
Effects overcome game mechanics :)
I kinda get what the chet callers are talking about. In the scenario where there so happens to be 3 card stuck together than the duelist would be incentivize to split them because this would effectively mean that this three of card would either always be stacked together and drawn 3 times in a row or they would never actually see this three of card because the cards are always moving together.
it doesn't because it's going to be shuffled anyway
@@Marcusjnmc depends. Most people shuffle by clumps. If you observe shuffling amongst most people they aren’t shuffling very precisely. Unlike something like power shuffling. Although in some advance cases power shuffling can be used to stack. Regardless. It’s pretty petty to call out uncumbling if your opponent is given the option to shuffle the deck.
Farfa betrays cardmarket! How could you?!?! You're a european, you're one of us!!!! You were supposed to fight them, not join them!
I swear to god after the dream incident everyone is suddenly an probabilities expert mathematician
While this may not be cheating it is definitely a waste of time. If the deck is going to be randomized anyway there is no reason to spend time "declumping". I feel like this just enables slow play.
Nobody is putting a deck in a shuffling machine though, if stuff is clumped it could stick together through a halfhearted shuffling, especially if 2-3 sleeves are stuck to each other.
In theory none of this should happen but sleeves wear out, get sticky or have static all the time and most shuffling methods don't fix this by themselves.
it isn't a waste of time because you aren't technically randomizing your deck by the definition of random. in most cases those cards will not be declumped during the average attempt at shuffling
@@fazdingo29 I understand what you and Luminous are saying but my issue with that argument is that you can't prove that those clumped cards would not have naturally been the cards you would draw. Once you start deliberately moving cards around the deck ceases to be random because randomness implies a lack of purpose or intent with the way you are shuffle. If you see three ash blossoms together and move them around because you don't like that they're in close proximity then that is not random. I don't want this to turn into a war, because this is just a game so I'll leave it at that. We can just agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
This is how arguments are supposed to go and not having it sound like a CoD lobby
If you're insisting that shuffling at the end randomizes your deck properly, then there would be no reason to declump your cards. You're declumping them to spread them out because no shuffle method is perfect. Just saying. Bring me in on VC
I mean I would agree with you unless the cards are actually stuck together for whatever reason and then separating makes sense since they may remain together. I have been in virtual games where my opponent drew Ash Blossom every turn when I checked the replay and to be frank from that standpoint I kinda like declumping.
Cards can be stuck together unnaturally, eg. due to moisture, when they're put into the deck. Ash blossoms are a playset, you usually put them together when you put them into the deck, it absolutely makes sense you want them to be separated before you shuffle, because otherwise your shuffle isn't legit.
people are lazy & don't thoroughly shuffle even though they should, the opponent's shuffle is their responsibility in maintaining the gamestate by ensuring the deck is getting properly randomised, and people who are good at it can stack/declump while shuffling while looking like a completely normal shuffle, so even though declumping like this looks more sus any opponent should really be trying as hard to randomise the deck as though they knew 100% the opponent's deck had been stacked
the biggest issue here is the time rules, particularly towards end of time the randomness of the game state is maintained worse & worse as players rush through steps/attempt to at least be seen to be going through actions quickly so that they don't lose to a judge call on stalling
but the current time rules mess with the integrity of the game in a bunch of ways anyway, even without this
@@igotveemon For unnatural causes like that I totally agree. With that said I feel like this should be done before a match right? My point pertains to when you shuffle before a duel, and by random change copies of a card are clumped. In that case it's perfectly valid in the definition of randomness. Randomness does not equal spread apart exclusively.
@@Anans1_Spyd3r agreed with all your points. If the cards are unnaturally stuck, then yeah of course separate and clean your sleeves! The sad thing is with virtual sims their "randomness" actually means all cards are spread out. It's a fun excersize in a coding program. Have the computer randomly generte numbers between 1 and 1000 a total of 1000 times. Then separate those numbers into 4 columns (1-250, 251-500, 501-750, 751-1000). You will see that these four groups all end up being 25% of the total numbers meaning it's not random. These virtual sims use the same computing logic sadly.
That phoenix dude sounds like a complete brainlet, Coder literally said not to take the policy documents to the T, then goes on the call, and follows it to the T.
well too bad phoenix was right and coder is wrong
@@maxixd5586 how tf is an official Yu-gi-oh! Judge wrong on this ruling.
@@Coolkidz-de3wm coder is not an official judge anymore and judges can be wrong anyway
Splitting "clumps" of cards is, by mathematical study, making the deck MORE random when you shuffle it afterwards, actually.
No matter what you do to the cards in your deck, pre-shuffle is legal. Since shuffle re-randomizes the deck, as long as the decks isn’t manipulated during the shuffle step.
If you said during the search, you said “I’m gonna split these cards” split the cards, then move to shuffle step it’s legal.
My question is, if de-clumping or rearranging cards before shuffling & randomizing the deck doesn’t matter, then why bother to de-clump in the first place?
If you truly believe it doesn’t matter nor it changes the odds then why are you doing it? I think that’s why it comes off as disingenuous or suss to some.
You are not allowed to rearrange your graveyard but you can rearrange your deck while you are searching? Wtf?
Wow my comment gave Farfa an excuse to pump out content! POGGERS KEKW monkaW strimer man
Imagine that every time you search a card from your deck to your hand your opponent pile shuffles your deck to randomize your deck.
Farfa biggest cheater in yugioh history
The policy doc states you cannot pre-order your deck WITHOUT shuffling your deck properly. Therefore, not cheating as long as the deck is shuffled after the de-clumping.
if the shuffling is actually random, it doesn't matter what order the cards were in beforehand
if it's not random, the problem is with the shuffling, not the order of the cards beforehand
if someone else Drew 3 Ash back to back they would go
"That's Yugioh Bro, that sucks"
But when their cards get Clumped together they go
"Hold on, Let me De-Clump" ... Like WTF
when phoenix says that if you declump and then shuffle it affects randomization: it doesnt.
if it's randomized you can't trace back to the original state.
and once you declump and shuffle (randomly) you can't "de-shuffle" to get to the original card sequence
Considering that you are doing some action outside of the search effect you can be called out for slow play since you are not immediately resolving the “search effect in play” as there is no other play or action u can commit to while searching…
To me it always made sense that it's fine to do this by the simple fact that if we assume it's illegal, you could just pretend to not have found what you were searching for, shuffle exactly where clumped cards are, and etc. It might seem tough at the beginning but with some practice you will be able to do it effortlessly. There isn't really a way to prove someone is declumping so they should just allow it. I even see no problem to lay out every single card in your deck and stack it however you want so long as you shuffle afterwards. I don't even remotely understand why people think that shouldn't be allowed.
above the blue highlighted bit. that's what you need to read. that's the exact thing you're refering to in this conversation. in other words as long as you thoroughly shuffle afterwards you are fine since you are refering to pre-sorting essentially while doing your search.
Not that dzeeff is the source of judge info, but he mentioned that It was legal to “declump” while searching
missed opportunity having phoenix be on the left side in the ace attorney bit, since that's where the protag *phoenix* wright usually is
Was looking for a video where you talked about a specific pro cheating, this aint the one I remember but Yooooo, if you read this comment you have slimmed down since you made this video. Good job man.
Randomizing is randomizing. I can prove it.
Mr. Incredible: "Randomizing is randomizing!"
You can't move cards when rota is being used. The duel has started. You can't grab a brick and put it on a bottom or top to avoid from being drawn when your opponent shuffles and cuts. It increases the chance of the brick to be lost in the middle by putting it on the ends.
You should be able to grab your 3 nibirus during side deck. Place them let say top middle and bottom... then proceed to shuffle. Then your opponent shuffles and the game starts. At this point, you have no more knowledge of where the 3 nibirus are since they have been shuffle previous to the game.
If you use rota, you can take a look at your deck.. it's not illegal and if you noticed cards are stacked.. like your 3 nibirus in the same spot. You can shuffle the deck to attempt to randomize them into possible draws. However, you are not allowed to just grab the 3 nibirus and hand pick them into different locations. This most be done on a shuffle technique without knowledge of the cards positions.
declumping is either a waste of time, because you're shuffling properly, or cheating if you're not.
Splitting cards in middle of search: not sus.
Calling Distant while he is asleep: *F U C K I N G S U S*
So how did no one mention that the policy straight up says you can’t pre-sort your deck without thoroughly shuffling afterward. To me that means you can rearrange your deck during the search as long as you shuffle and your opponent shuffles after the fact
The second point in the shuffling section kills whole its stacking argument.
By the people who say “de-clumping is illegal” logic I think that even if we *not* de-clumping the card it would also affect the randomization because you already *saw* that those 3 cards are together which literally mean you know that there are a change you can draw one after another = knowing what happen next = cheating, so in fact de-clumping those cards make it so it even more randomize that it ever was
it can't be "more random" lmao. It either is, or it isn't random, there is no in-between.
Non-Math-People and chance / probability is always such a funny combination.
As far as I have always been told its not Illegal. As long as the deck is shuffled and then the final cute is offered to your opponent first.
Changing the initial state before the randomization process (shuffle), should not change the randomness of the result. Of course that the end result will be diferent, but is still random... so, whatever.
The only thing you may argue is about how random your randomization process actually is..
even then saying how random something is is the same as saying that something is close to infinite, it's either random or it isn't and it isn't actually random at all, that just happens to be the buzzword that people typically use incorrectly. the term that should be used is uncertain and since one way or another the final result is uncertain it doesn't matter whether you declump or not therefore it's allowed
I like how UA-cam lists the game being played as Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney.
It's like they're trying to interpret a super old religious text or something
I jokingly *JOKINGLY* stalled for time by placing my deck in alphabetical order after searching
Is there any point to "declumping" if the deck just gets shuffled any way? I mean when I see clumped cards off a search, I'm like oh better shuffle better, so I give it like five extra shuffles.
I suppose in this case the declumping acts as a shortcut, if it really doesn’t make a difference it just saved you 5 extra shuffles.
Seeing Farfa Flossing like a boomer, to the calmest music ever is the worst and best thing I have seen
Oh man this topic...fun...if I remember right judges like to complain that adjusting positions of cards while searching even if you shuffle after and your opponent cuts the deck is still manipulating the deck to your advantage. Some will let it go, but most will say you aren't allowed to adjust the position of any cards during a search for any reason as it is a manipulation of the randomization.