Three grain motor just three ingredients, wheat, barley, and oats. When combined these three grains make a powerful propellant that can also be used to make a healthy loaf of bread. 😂
I wanted to build a propulsion test stand and didn't know where to start untill I saw your early videos which have me a kickstart of Ideas! Then I check back and wow wee those are some HUGE motors!
At some point; Would you be willing to run potassium based oxygen-sorbitol mix in a blender or coffee grinder for long enough to become exothermic? Your channel seems like a good place for such an experiment.
Love that rocket tooling! The inconsistent data spike shows when the erosion happened at the nozzle. Pretty cool. You are correct the damage was from by product of the fuel. Debris moving that fast can do some damage in short work. When you move up to a cast Ap fuel using epoxy the burn is very smooth and powerful. Also very clean. Thanks for the video. Always entertaining! Go to firefox.com they have everything you need. Then go to pyrochemsource.com to get the AP.
Funny timing... I just was contacted by a fan who had bought a huge lot of chemicals at an estate sale. Included were 6lbs of AP and a gallon of R45-M along with a quart of isonate curative. Luck had it he wanted to donate these to me and was within driving distance.... So composite motors will be coming soon!
@@ElementalMaker O man that is great! You will really love these. I have formulas if you need any. I can help you out with anything you might be missing.
@@ElementalMaker If you can find it, get your aluminum in multiple particle sizes. The major difficulty in making AP propellants is getting the approximately 15% aluminum into the mixture. Also, depending on the binder, you may want to get a vacuum pump and make a vacuum chamber to de-gas the propellant as it cures.
"a little bit of schmutz" I always get a big smile on my face when I hear German words in English video :) I didn't not take a look at your arduino code, but if you are using the analogRead instead of some low level ADC readout you might get some timing jitter with your measurements (hence the unsmooth graph). Its possible to run the ADC at a fixed frequency and read the ADCs value with an internal interrupt. This would let you calculate the measurement time more precisely than storing and relying on the millis() for example I would love to take a look at your code right now, but first I have to get through my exam period starting next week :| But I'm no rocket engineer and could be complete wrong, your measurments might be totally correct and the unsmoothness of your data is just the graphite nozzle breaking apart.... :)
Loving these DIY rocketry videos. One minor point, seems something went awry with the specific impulse calculation. However, you scaled the impulse (20600 gFs) by 100 instead of the mass of propellant, which was 225 g according to the spreadsheet, and 300 g according to your batch calculations. So the Isp should be around 90 seconds.
Yep, the Isp is very poor, not much better than you get from compressed black powder. But you have a good start on the basics. It is about time to transition to an AN, aluminum, rubber grain - ratio about 70:15:15. One major advantage is no melting of the uncast fuel - since the rubber fuel is the binder. That nozzle orifice is far too large for your 3 grain motor - but MIGHT be OK for a 5 grain. Does the casing have overpressure protection, so the nozzle end blows, rather than the casing turning into shrapnel? This is often accomplished by a relief cut around the inside of the casing, right in front of where the nozzle closure threading ends.
It shows in your results shown on the computer what happened with the back of the nozzle and from the video it did look like a propellant blockage which caused the the sudden increase and then decrease in thrust. I'd love to see what that puppy could do with a smaller nozzle. Great video
a trick I learned is to put a dab of Karo corn syrup in the mix it premelts a bit and the melting starts way sooner and the heat evaporatesthe water in it so it doesnt effect the burn rate
Already on file, with a few notes going back to when I was a Kid. The last interview Pi$$ed Me Off so much! I asked if they knew how to read or if they bothered to run a file check 1st. They can't tell the difference between my Grandfather, my Father and Myself. The Only one I had any respect for being professional used too be the Secret Service.
Great, great video! Thanks to Luke Foley for kicking it all up a notch. I will use your Amazon link. Last time I was fidgeting with rockets I was using Ammonium perchlorate and epoxy using the readily available NASA rocket booster formula. Using the epoxy formula makes the engines impervious to humidity and you can store them for years without any degradation. They also have a longer burn time. Thanks again for bringing rocketry back into focus.
Glad you enjoyed and I truly appreciate your support. I just got a gallon of R45 resin and isonate curative yesterday, along with 6 pounds of 200 micron AP, so get ready for some composite tests here!
Put a thin film of Vasoline inside the casing before assembling. The grains will go in more easily and it will make the casing easier to repair. The nozzle damage looks like normal erosion due to the supersonic gas flow.
i suspect that what got spat out of the nozzle was probably the paper liner that was on one of the fuel grains. it would probably be a good idea to use a much thicker carboard, maybe like a cereal box. did the motor come with instructions for what liner to use?
I have never seen a liner get spat out the nozzle, even when lubricated with Vasoline. The liner is plenty thick for his current propellant, but may need to be thicker for AP chemistry. I think Firefox, or one of the rocketry supply specialists, has some standard diameter liners that are specifically designed for composite propellants. Hopefully the casing is the standard 29 mm.
try a nother 3 grain motor, but make the final grain a slow burner with perchlorate, middle stage a normal sorbitol, then first ignitor a FeO mixt. this should give you a quick off the pad launch, then a normal burn then a slower continuous burn to reach maximum height as it loses fuel mass. somehow need to find a progressive burn instead of all firing at the same time. maybe a "degradable firewall" between the grains?something that lets the first grain burn 90 % before letting the second grain ignite and subsequent to the third..
Lmfao @ "the shit mistress"!! My wife makes decals and that will be on the big multi motor rocket I plan to build! #everyrocketneedsaname. I was already planning something like "thrus-stick", "sky-pole", or " hopes- then-dreams". But "shit mistress" just got queued.
Crazy awesome video. Just throwing this out there... But have you thought about looking in to recording the chamber pressure of the motors? I have no idea how high the chamber pressure will be. But there are tons of repetitively cheap pressure transducers on ebay. I will even tackle modifying the code to output the extra data. If you think it is worth it let me know and we can go from there. Again... Crazy awesome video. Keep it up.
next time you do one of these, can you measure the mass of the paper before you load it as well as the leftover mass to calculate combustion efficiency? Also are you going to publish the thrust curve data like you did with other tests?
Since black powder has such a fast burn rate (enough to classify it as an explosive) I wonder if that's what caused the blowout of the nozzle. If you feel your ignitor needs help maybe try using just a bit of some type of smokeless powder. Something like a pistol powder which burns faster. I would maybe try something like universal or unique. But that's just because that happens to be what I have on hand. What are your thoughts on this?
I think 1. The adding of black powder caused the entire inner surface of the propellant to begin burning at almost the same instant, starting from from what would be the top end to the bottom. 2. From what I understand, in the normal upright position, combustion should start at the bottom (nozzle end) rapidly moving up the propellant. In effect you seem to have started the combustion at the the wrong end and came as close to detonating it as was possible by using the black powder. - Probably best not to be too close and behind hard cover if you decide to use a proper detonator.
In the case with these engines its normal practice to ignite furthest from the nozzle as possible to ignite all three grains at once. And yeah I was behind the shed peeking out with a full face shield.
I think the nozzle damage was caused by impact from the hard schmutz particles that were observed at the head end of the motor and collected on the nozzle. The pressure spike is usually caused by a void or crack in the fuel but in this case the hard particles exiting the nozzle may have played a role in it. I like to use poster board or file folders as my liner with two wraps to prevent damage to the case. Not enough thermal barrier may cause the case to blister or damage it. Great video and keep up the good work!
I agree with you, the nozzle damage resembles particle impingement impacts. Large particles passing through the throat area would reduce the exit area, increase chamber pressure, and produce thrust spikes.
If they are the old D motors, they were not very stable even when new - very prone to grain cracking of the BP, which resulted in CATOs. After 40+ years, the C motors may be developing the same problem if they have received a lot of temperature cycling. Last time I used some of my old Estes motors from the early 70s, up through C were fine. But every one of the remaining D motors were bad. I should probably dig them out one of these days and use up the rest of them.
On a side note, did the griddle heat up and cause the green cutting mat to not want to remain flat anymore like heat did to mine? Guess it sure helped having a air spacer between the mat and the heat involved. Careful with that people or you will become disgruntled accordingly!
Best way to ask viewers for support ... is to try to make them WANT to give you support. Listen to yourself, and be as critical as you can be. OMIT statements or time that YOU would find boring or annoying. Not many people are [funny] -- and that's okay. But what's nearly unforgivable (because it's painful to listen to) ... is when people who aren't funny either falsely believe they are -- and irrespective, try to be. WHITTLE THE CONTENT DOWN Try to edit about 90% out of your content to only the MOST educational & interesting. A great channel to learn from is This Old Tony. It's a machinists channel. He's educational. It sounds unscripted but is largely scripted (you can tell by watching his earliest episodes. A great channel to show you how much progress can be made in VERY little time is: Wendover Productions -- listen to his first few videos ... and then -- ANYTHING he's made after the 15th video. They're all professional now. And he doesn't try to say anything funny. Personally, I'd find it interesting for you to try to simplify and teach people what you were taught -- to calculate thrust x time, etc. Best of luck -- I hope you take it constructively.
No, he calculated it wrong, somewhere in the comments someone calculated the isp to be around 80, well below the over 200 for shuttle srbs. Sugar propellent should be around 110, so his isp is actually pretty low.
I think the solubility in water is too low. And they would tend to crystallize out separately which defeats the purpose. This trick DOES work on blackpowder though, because it allows the nitrate to recrystallize _inside_ micropores in the carbon. But that's because the carbon doesn't dissolve.
I like your enthusiastic intro: "TODAY!" Do you plan on experimenting with other solid propellants? For example, the high specific impulse NH4ClO4 - Al homogeneously dispersed in a polymer matrix (binder)? I think the Space Shuttle uses it in its booster rockets. Don't bother with Zn - S (Zincoshine). Its specific impulse is crap.
How come you use 2 grams of rust in your propellant mixture? Isn’t that kind of alot? I’ve been reading NAKKA’s website and he only ever adds about 1% rust or 1 gram to 100 grams of propellant. This might be why your propellant burnt so fast and it might be the reason for the nozzle erosion too (mass flow is too high for the nozzle that you had selected) Other than my question that was a fantastic video keep up on the rocketry its fun as heck to watch!
Great question! Most articles I've read show that between 0.5-5% RIO is effective for increasing burn rate. I just figured I would shoot for the lower-middle end scale of that range. I love Richard Nakka's website. Truly a goldmine of great information! Very well could have been super hot and high velocity gasses that eroded the nozzle. Glad you enjoyed!
Great video & your humor is second to none, thank you! You cheer me up and make me laugh, I need that these days, thank you! P.S. Can you make your link work with Amazon Smile?
Thanks for the kind words Robert! And yes great idea for amazon smile. Here is a link that works with amazon smile: tinyurl.com/yyx2xymv I truly appreciate your support.
For the nozzle? Copper would melt very quickly, steel might for for a bit before melting. Graphite is about the only thing that can withstand those kind of temperatures.
BE VERY FUCKING CAREFUL WITH THAT PROPELLENT CASTING METHOD. You could be creating extra air pockets in the grain. That little air pocket will create a small explosion with in the casing that can cause a RUD.
206s Isp from a bunch of rust, some KNOyoudon't, and shitanium? Well, I'll be... It's still very much "suborbitol", not going to go to the Moon on that kind of efficiency (without some titanic monstrosity of a rocket), but I'm surprised it goes that high.
Ummmmmm. Wouldn't sugar and KNO3 be easy enough. Sorbitol is both expensive and not widely available. Sugar rockets are common. Iron oxide works in the mixture like it works in thermite. It ensures that once the reaction starts it will continue to it's completion. Oh I didn't wait for your explain. Watching as I am commenting. Just for your info Sugar and KNO3 can more safely be melted in a double boiler. You can add water (just a little too much will cause problems)to your admix to help combine and it will melt together easier but you have to keep on heat to dry it out some. Should not do any of this inside of your home. Oh by the way where is the Tim Taylor in you? Go big or go home. I wanna see something on the order of 10 times that big. And I wanna see it fly.😉😉😉. ROFL.
Sorry if it's a stupid question, but why does the nozzle have to be graphite? Is there a reason why you couldn't just machine a new end cap with a nozzle built in made from the steel?
Steel would probably hold up pretty well also, but graphite is one of the gold standards as its quite chemically inert and can handle super high temperature without melting (as metals can).
But you _could_ use it if you really wanted to? I presume that such a brittle material would have to be redone periodically? Do you have a video of you making that nozzle? Thanks. Love your channel.
Great work! I would like to know 3 things: is it possible to get the same moulding tubes that you use (I am unable to make my own)? - How can I make the same 3-grain motor as yours? -How can I make nitrocellulose for my igniters? Thank you
New viewer/subscriber here. This was on my home page suggested feed. Good stuff. FYI I sub to family friendly stuff where I don't have to worry if the kid is around. She is too young for the innuendo, but I skip content with outright foul language. I'm in no way, shape, or form telling you what to do, make, or upload here. I'm just 1 viewer/subscriber and an electronics hobbyist. I don't matter. I'm simply saying, I won't watch AvE because of the foul language. Thanks for the upload. -Jake
Also, in regards to using your goo.gl Amazon link, people need to be sure to highlight the link, then copy that. If they right click on it and copy the address, they actually copy the UA-cam redirection link that sends them to that; or if they have some browser settings that confirm foreign redirects then they would see that alert every single time. I suppose that might still work, but if UA-cam changes anything it could impact that (but I suppose I could be wrong)
Try this stuff for lubing up your spindle: smile.amazon.com/Frankford-Arsenal-Aerosol-Release-Reloading/dp/B00EVNSFKY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=269U15HWIJ1M3&keywords=frankford+arsenal+casting&qid=1563255213&s=gateway&sprefix=frankford+arsenal+cas%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1
A 206s Isp for a sugar rocket is insane. A small tweak to your code for the arduino can allow you to launch it from your laptop where you collect your data. Basically you would be replacing the button with a code word, and using the serial monitor from the arduino to light your candle
I wonder what the PSI is from the nozzle of the motor. Amazing the determination of nature, the elements if you will. How would you figure that ? Time to make my brain hurt.
I believe your thrust was actually higher than what you measured. Your test stand showed some considerable deformation under load, meaning energy was lost and the normal force on your load cell was diminished. Because the normal force was diminished, your load cell did not deform as much as it should have, resulting in a loss in measured load/thrust.
adding an additional 10 parts of sulfur to the red iron oxide spiked mixture makes it even better but be careful to not set it of when cooking it sulfur has a low autoignition temperature i always take of the pan a sprinkle a miniscule amount of sulfur on the heater and see if it's hot enough to ignite it so i don't set my whole batch on fire that would SUCK
a three grain 38mm motor is not considered a big motor in high power rocketry. O class motors are 6 to 8 " in diameter with 6 grains and more. Ammonium perchlorate produces much higher specific impulse than sugar motors do.
Oh boy. Black powder motors burn FAST. I made a small one once. One second it's on the launch pad. Next second there's a smoke trail presumably following its trajectory, because I never even saw it move. Even with my homemade powder. I decided to switch to tamer stuff after that.
Yeah, you want to do any kind of compression of it while it's wet, if at all possible. I wonder if 100% ethanol would work to stabilize the grain while you pack it. Evaporate it off after you're done.
There is a lot of science in the differences between the grains. Grain by the nozzle can have a larger bore and maybe a finned interior surface, the grain near the closed end can have a smaller bore. Remember that the grain by the nozzle must pass three grains worth of hot gas without being abraded by hot gasses, then any abraded material hammers the nozzle.
Nice video. Massive three grain sugar rocket motor? ua-cam.com/video/eeOVhQKnTfg/v-deo.html We also fired a 12" 3 grain motor. I think you made an error in your Isp calculation, the highest we ever obtained was 135Nsec. You might also machine a stainless steel nozzle insert, we try to use 303 stainless steel, I have one with over 25 firings and looks like new; cleans up in plain water.
I think I did mess up the isp calculation. Unfortunately I can't go back and edit the video although I'd love to correct that. Unfortunately my lathe can't handle stainless otherwise I'd definitely make an insert. 25 firings on one nozzle is very impressive! I'll check out your video link now
At 5:41 that propellant look as though it'd be quite nice to eat! Years ago, I used to play with Estes model rockets.... this looks like it'd be much better but I'm pretty sure it's illegal here in England.
I just looked into it and unfortunately it does look to be illegal in the UK. That's a real bummer as it's quite safe and educational. Looks like the only experimental rocket motors you can make over there are hybrid or liquid fueled. Quite crazy.
Help me continue making science videos www.patreon.com/ElementalMaker
homogeneous or eutectic?
i dub thee rocket shitz
Three grain motor just three ingredients, wheat, barley, and oats. When combined these three grains make a powerful propellant that can also be used to make a healthy loaf of bread. 😂
Just mix stump remover and "log" remover.
Log remover?
@@guythat779 Sorbitol has a reputation for giving people horrible diarrhea when they eat too much of it.
@@tissuepaper9962 I know but... so you call poop logs aight gotcha
I wanted to build a propulsion test stand and didn't know where to start untill I saw your early videos which have me a kickstart of Ideas! Then I check back and wow wee those are some HUGE motors!
Sorbitol is an alcohol. Maybe that pronunciation clue will help.
At some point;
Would you be willing to run potassium based oxygen-sorbitol mix in a blender or coffee grinder for long enough to become exothermic? Your channel seems like a good place for such an experiment.
Very cool idea! I just might have to try that!
Love that rocket tooling!
The inconsistent data spike shows when the erosion happened at the nozzle. Pretty cool.
You are correct the damage was from by product of the fuel. Debris moving that fast can do some damage in short work.
When you move up to a cast Ap fuel using epoxy the burn is very smooth and powerful. Also very clean.
Thanks for the video. Always entertaining!
Go to firefox.com they have everything you need. Then go to pyrochemsource.com to get the AP.
Funny timing... I just was contacted by a fan who had bought a huge lot of chemicals at an estate sale. Included were 6lbs of AP and a gallon of R45-M along with a quart of isonate curative. Luck had it he wanted to donate these to me and was within driving distance.... So composite motors will be coming soon!
@@ElementalMaker O man that is great!
You will really love these. I have formulas if you need any.
I can help you out with anything you might be missing.
@@ElementalMaker If you can find it, get your aluminum in multiple particle sizes. The major difficulty in making AP propellants is getting the approximately 15% aluminum into the mixture.
Also, depending on the binder, you may want to get a vacuum pump and make a vacuum chamber to de-gas the propellant as it cures.
"a little bit of schmutz" I always get a big smile on my face when I hear German words in English video :)
I didn't not take a look at your arduino code, but if you are using the analogRead instead of some low level ADC readout you might get some timing jitter with your measurements (hence the unsmooth graph). Its possible to run the ADC at a fixed frequency and read the ADCs value with an internal interrupt. This would let you calculate the measurement time more precisely than storing and relying on the millis() for example
I would love to take a look at your code right now, but first I have to get through my exam period starting next week :|
But I'm no rocket engineer and could be complete wrong, your measurments might be totally correct and the unsmoothness of your data is just the graphite nozzle breaking apart.... :)
o/
Time for a 4 grain and a bigger load cell love your videos Man
I'm guessing casting a grain to fit the cannon would be a bad/wonderful idea....?
I absolutely don't care what you do in your videos, I just come here to listen to that buttery smooth voice
I do eat alot of butter 👍LOL
Loving these DIY rocketry videos. One minor point, seems something went awry with the specific impulse calculation. However, you scaled the impulse (20600 gFs) by 100 instead of the mass of propellant, which was 225 g according to the spreadsheet, and 300 g according to your batch calculations. So the Isp should be around 90 seconds.
Ah crap I screwed that one up then 😕
just did the calculation... it is 93.433424 seconds
Yep, the Isp is very poor, not much better than you get from compressed black powder. But you have a good start on the basics. It is about time to transition to an AN, aluminum, rubber grain - ratio about 70:15:15. One major advantage is no melting of the uncast fuel - since the rubber fuel is the binder.
That nozzle orifice is far too large for your 3 grain motor - but MIGHT be OK for a 5 grain.
Does the casing have overpressure protection, so the nozzle end blows, rather than the casing turning into shrapnel? This is often accomplished by a relief cut around the inside of the casing, right in front of where the nozzle closure threading ends.
Isp should be around 110-130 for knsb
It shows in your results shown on the computer what happened with the back of the nozzle and from the video it did look like a propellant blockage which caused the the sudden increase and then decrease in thrust.
I'd love to see what that puppy could do with a smaller nozzle.
Great video
a trick I learned is to put a dab of Karo corn syrup in the mix it premelts a bit and the melting starts way sooner and the heat evaporatesthe water in it so it doesnt effect the burn rate
Wrist workout leads to brief thrust, ending with crusty gunk. You know what content your audience likes.
It is always a fun visit fella. Love how it went.
As if the subject wasn't enough to get me onto gov't watch lists, the innuendos will no doubt place me on a very different kind of "watch" list
Already on file, with a few notes going back to when I was a Kid. The last interview Pi$$ed Me Off so much! I asked if they knew how to read or if they bothered to run a file check 1st. They can't tell the difference between my Grandfather, my Father and Myself. The Only one I had any respect for being professional used too be the Secret Service.
and when you're not making model rockets, you can make pancakes for the wife.
In that hotplate, wifes gonna think she got the flu.
If I could only KNOw what your secret ingredient is LOL
potassium nitrate? never heard of her.
@@tissuepaper9962 he probably meant KNO3
Just added that link as my homepage for Amazon. Hope it helps bud keep up the great work.
Truly appreciate your support!
Would love to see foley defense offering those casting casings to consumers willing to buy them.
Great, great video! Thanks to Luke Foley for kicking it all up a notch. I will use your Amazon link. Last time I was fidgeting with rockets I was using Ammonium perchlorate and epoxy using the readily available NASA rocket booster formula. Using the epoxy formula makes the engines impervious to humidity and you can store them for years without any degradation. They also have a longer burn time. Thanks again for bringing rocketry back into focus.
Glad you enjoyed and I truly appreciate your support. I just got a gallon of R45 resin and isonate curative yesterday, along with 6 pounds of 200 micron AP, so get ready for some composite tests here!
Put a thin film of Vasoline inside the casing before assembling. The grains will go in more easily and it will make the casing easier to repair.
The nozzle damage looks like normal erosion due to the supersonic gas flow.
Laxatives inside a long hard tube that spews legendary "potassium based oxygen"? Wow you're a force to be reckoned with, kind sire. :O
i suspect that what got spat out of the nozzle was probably the paper liner that was on one of the fuel grains. it would probably be a good idea to use a much thicker carboard, maybe like a cereal box.
did the motor come with instructions for what liner to use?
I have never seen a liner get spat out the nozzle, even when lubricated with Vasoline. The liner is plenty thick for his current propellant, but may need to be thicker for AP chemistry. I think Firefox, or one of the rocketry supply specialists, has some standard diameter liners that are specifically designed for composite propellants. Hopefully the casing is the standard 29 mm.
Wow I can't believe that didn't fail they machined that thing really good
Bah, at that low pressure, there is no failure risk.
forbidden caramel
try a nother 3 grain motor, but make the final grain a slow burner with perchlorate, middle stage a normal sorbitol, then first ignitor a FeO mixt. this should give you a quick off the pad launch, then a normal burn then a slower continuous burn to reach maximum height as it loses fuel mass. somehow need to find a progressive burn instead of all firing at the same time. maybe a "degradable firewall" between the grains?something that lets the first grain burn 90 % before letting the second grain ignite and subsequent to the third..
43000kg pEaK ThRuSt?!?! Idk how heavy you’re casing is, but compared to just your propellant mass, that’s a TWR of like 145:1. Holy shite
Lmfao @ "the shit mistress"!! My wife makes decals and that will be on the big multi motor rocket I plan to build! #everyrocketneedsaname. I was already planning something like "thrus-stick", "sky-pole", or " hopes- then-dreams". But "shit mistress" just got queued.
Legally speaking I'm going to need to confiscate one or two of those decals as payment 😁😂
Let me Know what color/size and where to send it and I'll have her make em tonight!
Crazy awesome video. Just throwing this out there... But have you thought about looking in to recording the chamber pressure of the motors? I have no idea how high the chamber pressure will be. But there are tons of repetitively cheap pressure transducers on ebay. I will even tackle modifying the code to output the extra data. If you think it is worth it let me know and we can go from there. Again... Crazy awesome video. Keep it up.
"The second best wrist work-out my hands had for a week,... maybe a day." 🤣🤣🤣 Think I just broke a rib.
11:51 that's not the ISP....total impulse I guess, ISP is in seconds, total impulse in Newton.seconds
next time you do one of these, can you measure the mass of the paper before you load it as well as the leftover mass to calculate combustion efficiency? Also are you going to publish the thrust curve data like you did with other tests?
Hell yeah! Love these motor tests.
Sorbitol is the main ingredient in chipoltaway.
Since black powder has such a fast burn rate (enough to classify it as an explosive) I wonder if that's what caused the blowout of the nozzle. If you feel your ignitor needs help maybe try using just a bit of some type of smokeless powder. Something like a pistol powder which burns faster. I would maybe try something like universal or unique. But that's just because that happens to be what I have on hand. What are your thoughts on this?
Wow that was quick and powerful!
Wonder if the burntime further decreases when pointed downwards and mounted to the ground.🤔
Now try sending it😅😂
No, the burn time is independent of orientation. Nozzle up makes it easier to mount the motor to the load cell.
Get a custom tungsten carbide nozzle made... Almost the same melting point, and much harder
y e s, more forbidden chocolate
I use the true name of the “potassium based oxygen “ and the censorbot hasn’t gotten me. Maybe because I don’t monetize my videos
I might be able to get away with using it, but its not really worth the risk imo. Glad to see they haven't nailed you
I think
1. The adding of black powder caused the entire inner surface of the propellant to begin burning at almost the same instant, starting from from what would be the top end to the bottom.
2. From what I understand, in the normal upright position, combustion should start at the bottom (nozzle end) rapidly moving up the propellant. In effect you seem to have started the combustion at the the wrong end and came as close to detonating it as was possible by using the black powder.
- Probably best not to be too close and behind hard cover if you decide to use a proper detonator.
In the case with these engines its normal practice to ignite furthest from the nozzle as possible to ignite all three grains at once. And yeah I was behind the shed peeking out with a full face shield.
@@ElementalMaker If you want high specific impulse, you should try the sulfur & zinc powder propellant type.
It really produces a powerful result.
I think the nozzle damage was caused by impact from the hard schmutz particles that were observed at the head end of the motor and collected on the nozzle. The pressure spike is usually caused by a void or crack in the fuel but in this case the hard particles exiting the nozzle may have played a role in it. I like to use poster board or file folders as my liner with two wraps to prevent damage to the case. Not enough thermal barrier may cause the case to blister or damage it. Great video and keep up the good work!
I agree with you, the nozzle damage resembles particle impingement impacts. Large particles passing through the throat area would reduce the exit area, increase chamber pressure, and produce thrust spikes.
I have some really old Estes solid rocket motors from early mid 70's they are not very stable.
If they are the old D motors, they were not very stable even when new - very prone to grain cracking of the BP, which resulted in CATOs. After 40+ years, the C motors may be developing the same problem if they have received a lot of temperature cycling.
Last time I used some of my old Estes motors from the early 70s, up through C were fine. But every one of the remaining D motors were bad. I should probably dig them out one of these days and use up the rest of them.
You sound similar to AVE but your work space is a lot cleaner. :-)
ok, i'm not the only one who thought this.
I have mentioned this before and he told me he isn’t related lol
KNO3 is no mystery unless you skipped chem lab.
The people who get him demonetized never took chemistry.
Except it is not the best oxidizer for rocket motors. The burn rate exponent is too high.
K is for potassium and no3 is for nitrate.
On a side note, did the griddle heat up and cause the green cutting mat to not want to remain flat anymore like heat did to mine? Guess it sure helped having a air spacer between the mat and the heat involved. Careful with that people or you will become disgruntled accordingly!
No mine didn't warp at all from the heat
Can you slow the burn rate? A long burn rate with about 2k-3k grams of thrust average would be nice.
LOVE YOU TROLL FACE !!!!!! AS ALWAYS THE ULTIMATE BEST
Best way to ask viewers for support ... is to try to make them WANT to give you support.
Listen to yourself, and be as critical as you can be. OMIT statements or time that YOU would find boring or annoying. Not many people are [funny] -- and that's okay. But what's nearly unforgivable (because it's painful to listen to) ... is when people who aren't funny either falsely believe they are -- and irrespective, try to be.
WHITTLE THE CONTENT DOWN
Try to edit about 90% out of your content to only the MOST educational & interesting.
A great channel to learn from is This Old Tony.
It's a machinists channel. He's educational. It sounds unscripted but is largely scripted (you can tell by watching his earliest episodes.
A great channel to show you how much progress can be made in VERY little time is:
Wendover Productions -- listen to his first few videos ... and then -- ANYTHING he's made after the 15th video. They're all professional now. And he doesn't try to say anything funny.
Personally, I'd find it interesting for you to try to simplify and teach people what you were taught -- to calculate thrust x time, etc.
Best of luck -- I hope you take it constructively.
That is an Excellent Specific impulse, almost on par with NASA's Space Shuttle Solid Boosters.
No, he calculated it wrong, somewhere in the comments someone calculated the isp to be around 80, well below the over 200 for shuttle srbs. Sugar propellent should be around 110, so his isp is actually pretty low.
What would happen If you dissolved both the sorbitol and potassium into water and mixed them so they’re combined kn a molecular level
I think the solubility in water is too low. And they would tend to crystallize out separately which defeats the purpose. This trick DOES work on blackpowder though, because it allows the nitrate to recrystallize _inside_ micropores in the carbon. But that's because the carbon doesn't dissolve.
Hi ❤️ Buddy You didn't provide Sketch for Arduino & Whole projects... 👍
All in the description
Can you make a mock LAW rocket with shoulder fired tube or is that illegal? No charge, just the rocket.
I would love to but I think UA-cam would immediately strike my channel
keith moore, that would be cool, I’d love to see elementmaker do that, get an old LAW tube to launch his model rockets through.
This is my idea of whole grains
I like your enthusiastic intro: "TODAY!" Do you plan on experimenting with other solid propellants? For example, the high specific impulse NH4ClO4 - Al homogeneously dispersed in a polymer matrix (binder)? I think the Space Shuttle uses it in its booster rockets. Don't bother with Zn - S (Zincoshine). Its specific impulse is crap.
Composite AP propellants coming soon!
How come you use 2 grams of rust in your propellant mixture? Isn’t that kind of alot? I’ve been reading NAKKA’s website and he only ever adds about 1% rust or 1 gram to 100 grams of propellant. This might be why your propellant burnt so fast and it might be the reason for the nozzle erosion too (mass flow is too high for the nozzle that you had selected)
Other than my question that was a fantastic video keep up on the rocketry its fun as heck to watch!
Great question! Most articles I've read show that between 0.5-5% RIO is effective for increasing burn rate. I just figured I would shoot for the lower-middle end scale of that range. I love Richard Nakka's website. Truly a goldmine of great information! Very well could have been super hot and high velocity gasses that eroded the nozzle. Glad you enjoyed!
Hahah, AvE did actually manage to build a parallel universe can opener and let out his wannabe copy of himself. 😆😆😆
Great video & your humor is second to none, thank you!
You cheer me up and make me laugh, I need that these days, thank you!
P.S. Can you make your link work with Amazon Smile?
Thanks for the kind words Robert! And yes great idea for amazon smile. Here is a link that works with amazon smile: tinyurl.com/yyx2xymv I truly appreciate your support.
just curious but, how would changing the bottom inner diameter to same size as nozzle and the top inner diameter larger like a cone.
Willy wonka wants to know your location
why are you using graphite instead of something else like copper maybe?
For the nozzle? Copper would melt very quickly, steel might for for a bit before melting. Graphite is about the only thing that can withstand those kind of temperatures.
Should have made the spindle on more of a tapered angle. :)
How can we increase the burn time.....
Plzz help
BE VERY FUCKING CAREFUL WITH THAT PROPELLENT CASTING METHOD. You could be creating extra air pockets in the grain. That little air pocket will create a small explosion with in the casing that can cause a RUD.
206s Isp from a bunch of rust, some KNOyoudon't, and shitanium? Well, I'll be... It's still very much "suborbitol", not going to go to the Moon on that kind of efficiency (without some titanic monstrosity of a rocket), but I'm surprised it goes that high.
*builds a pipebomb*
surprised that nozzle didnt like that
Ummmmmm. Wouldn't sugar and KNO3 be easy enough. Sorbitol is both expensive and not widely available. Sugar rockets are common. Iron oxide works in the mixture like it works in thermite. It ensures that once the reaction starts it will continue to it's completion. Oh I didn't wait for your explain. Watching as I am commenting. Just for your info Sugar and KNO3 can more safely be melted in a double boiler. You can add water (just a little too much will cause problems)to your admix to help combine and it will melt together easier but you have to keep on heat to dry it out some. Should not do any of this inside of your home.
Oh by the way where is the Tim Taylor in you? Go big or go home. I wanna see something on the order of 10 times that big. And I wanna see it fly.😉😉😉. ROFL.
Sorry if it's a stupid question, but why does the nozzle have to be graphite? Is there a reason why you couldn't just machine a new end cap with a nozzle built in made from the steel?
Steel would probably hold up pretty well also, but graphite is one of the gold standards as its quite chemically inert and can handle super high temperature without melting (as metals can).
But you _could_ use it if you really wanted to?
I presume that such a brittle material would have to be redone periodically? Do you have a video of you making that nozzle?
Thanks. Love your channel.
Great work!
I would like to know 3 things: is it possible to get the same moulding tubes that you use (I am unable to make my own)?
- How can I make the same 3-grain motor as yours?
-How can I make nitrocellulose for my igniters?
Thank you
New viewer/subscriber here. This was on my home page suggested feed. Good stuff.
FYI I sub to family friendly stuff where I don't have to worry if the kid is around. She is too young for the innuendo, but I skip content with outright foul language. I'm in no way, shape, or form telling you what to do, make, or upload here. I'm just 1 viewer/subscriber and an electronics hobbyist. I don't matter. I'm simply saying, I won't watch AvE because of the foul language.
Thanks for the upload.
-Jake
Hey Jake thank you for your subscription. I do curse in a few of my videos, so view in caution with your little one.
HAHAHAHAHA "Thats 1 sticky turd formation" hahaha epic.
So... You're ramming your wood into something? You should check out EmmyMadeInJapan cooking a long clam. Funny stuff.
Also, in regards to using your goo.gl Amazon link, people need to be sure to highlight the link, then copy that. If they right click on it and copy the address, they actually copy the UA-cam redirection link that sends them to that; or if they have some browser settings that confirm foreign redirects then they would see that alert every single time. I suppose that might still work, but if UA-cam changes anything it could impact that (but I suppose I could be wrong)
Try this stuff for lubing up your spindle:
smile.amazon.com/Frankford-Arsenal-Aerosol-Release-Reloading/dp/B00EVNSFKY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=269U15HWIJ1M3&keywords=frankford+arsenal+casting&qid=1563255213&s=gateway&sprefix=frankford+arsenal+cas%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1
Is it sad Ik kno3 is potassium nitrate by heart at the point
A 206s Isp for a sugar rocket is insane.
A small tweak to your code for the arduino can allow you to launch it from your laptop where you collect your data.
Basically you would be replacing the button with a code word, and using the serial monitor from the arduino to light your candle
I wonder what the PSI is from the nozzle of the motor. Amazing the determination of nature, the elements if you will. How would you figure that ? Time to make my brain hurt.
I believe your thrust was actually higher than what you measured. Your test stand showed some considerable deformation under load, meaning energy was lost and the normal force on your load cell was diminished. Because the normal force was diminished, your load cell did not deform as much as it should have, resulting in a loss in measured load/thrust.
adding an additional 10 parts of sulfur to the red iron oxide spiked mixture makes it even better but be careful to not set it of when cooking it sulfur has a low autoignition temperature i always take of the pan a sprinkle a miniscule amount of sulfur on the heater and see if it's hot enough to ignite it so i don't set my whole batch on fire that would SUCK
U know I have been waiting for this, thanks
a three grain 38mm motor is not considered a big motor in high power rocketry. O class motors are 6 to 8 " in diameter with 6 grains and more. Ammonium perchlorate produces much higher specific impulse than sugar motors do.
perfect for an emergency eject system
How about a black powder motor? Would be interesting to compare it to the KNSB propellant.
Oh boy. Black powder motors burn FAST. I made a small one once. One second it's on the launch pad. Next second there's a smoke trail presumably following its trajectory, because I never even saw it move. Even with my homemade powder. I decided to switch to tamer stuff after that.
Yeah, you want to do any kind of compression of it while it's wet, if at all possible.
I wonder if 100% ethanol would work to stabilize the grain while you pack it. Evaporate it off after you're done.
I've pounded more tubes of black powder than i can count. Its not going to light from pounding. You need to use extra charcoal to slow it down.
@keith moore could have been whistle mix. That stuff you should never pound.
Are you sure you and AvE aren't related?
Could be my long lost brother. I was sold as a baby for a snickers bar
There is a lot of science in the differences between the grains. Grain by the nozzle can have a larger bore and maybe a finned interior surface, the grain near the closed end can have a smaller bore. Remember that the grain by the nozzle must pass three grains worth of hot gas without being abraded by hot gasses, then any abraded material hammers the nozzle.
Did he actually say 'Schmutz' at around 14:15?
Why was the burn time with 3 grains so much shorter?
Likely because of the higher chamber pressures it creates a positive feedback loop causing it to burn faster.
When Rocket boy grows-up.
I want to try a softball bat as a motor. With a aluminum drinking canister cut in half as a nozzle for the motor. It would be welded on of course
Hear, hear. YT recommendations finally doing their thing.
One can´t subscribe to too many talking Hands. Bring it, i´ll watch it.
Glad to see its getting recommended! Thanks for dropping a comment and subscribing!
there is Kno3 written on the cover lol
Its a secret dont tell
That was pretty cool. Another thing to tack on my long list of projects.
You could try using wax paper to wrap your spindle to prevent sticking
It's billy bonkers and the rocket factory..
Nice video. Massive three grain sugar rocket motor? ua-cam.com/video/eeOVhQKnTfg/v-deo.html
We also fired a 12" 3 grain motor. I think you made an error in your Isp calculation, the highest we ever obtained was 135Nsec. You might also machine a stainless steel nozzle insert, we try to use 303 stainless steel, I have one with over 25 firings and looks like new; cleans up in plain water.
I think I did mess up the isp calculation. Unfortunately I can't go back and edit the video although I'd love to correct that. Unfortunately my lathe can't handle stainless otherwise I'd definitely make an insert. 25 firings on one nozzle is very impressive! I'll check out your video link now
That video was unreal! What a motor!
Induction would be a safer way to cook I think
At 5:41 that propellant look as though it'd be quite nice to eat!
Years ago, I used to play with Estes model rockets.... this looks like it'd be much better but I'm pretty sure it's illegal here in England.
I just looked into it and unfortunately it does look to be illegal in the UK. That's a real bummer as it's quite safe and educational. Looks like the only experimental rocket motors you can make over there are hybrid or liquid fueled. Quite crazy.
It expands... more wraps of paper to account for expansion...?
Know any tricks for a long burn time at medium thrust?