its never going to sound like the amp because you'll be playing it back through a different speaker system. Every 'favourite recorded album guitar sound' you've ever heard has NEVER been the 'in the room amp sound', its always been the recorded sound through a mic or multiple mic's blended, through your own speakers you used at the time at home to play those albums that you fell in love with (which more than likely were consumer hi-fi speakers in a un-treated bedroom/living room, further colouring the 'intended' album sound the band/producer intended)
That guy who does the guitar/amp myth-busting videos did a video arguing against the idea of “in the room” amp tones based on that argument, except unlike your comment, he didn’t specify favourite *recorded* sounds, so I asked him if he seriously didn’t understand that when some of us talk about in-the-room amp tones it’s because we have heard amps IN A ROOM before. Sure it’s pointless to expect a UA-cam amp demo to sound just like it does in person, but it’s ridiculous to say that “no one has ever heard a favourite amp tone that wasn’t mic’d and played back through either sound system speakers or a PA” like he was in his video. Tons of my favourite amp tones were amps I heard right in front of me with nothing between my ears and the amp.
Each of those mics sound great to my ears, in Sony open-backs, so combining them can't be anything but great x 2. When my 1st band 1st went into a studio (1964) and heard ourselves "close" miced, it did not sound like "us" to our ears. It took multiple studio sessions to get used to hearing all the "precision" of our sounds. Years later I was in a band that did much of our rehearsing in a studio setting with headphone mixes. It was just the contrast of live sound vs recorded sound back before "in-ear" monitors.
I know it’s not easy to do but if you want to record an amp in the room sound you need room mics in conjunction with the close mics. That’s the magic of recording a band together in the same room, all the other mic for drums and such become room mics for everything else. Obviously presents other challenges but it has its benefits.
Sorry to say John, but once UA-cam has done with compressing your videos, there’s little between the SM57 and the Royer. Only a tone difference that can be eq’d.
You make a good point that guitars recorded with modelers will sound exactly like "what you're hearing" as opposed to a "microphone's recording" of what you're hearing. To my ear there is a tonal character quality from a miced amp that modelers don't have and I've never been able to achieve with EQ or reverb on a modeler. The best I can describe it is "physical separation" or "natural headroom". The 57/121 combo is regarded by many as "the" amp/cab standard, but getting the phase right is very important when using more than one mic. I've been called crazy but my favorite mic for guitar amps is the tiny Neumann TLM-102. For me it just works for most sources.
I use a hallway mic. The guitars, vocals, and drums have the hallway mic. The bass doesn't. The drums also have stereo room mics, stereo overheads, and a mono room mic lol Overkill yes, but it gives me incredible freedom in post production. But I digress! Use a hallway mic! Don't even bother with a room mic unless it's at least a 500ft^2 room and somewhat dampened i.e. furniture, carpet etc. Hallway mic.
Stick with it brother! Those mics are the industry standard for amazing guitar tone. Play around with your mic placement, and you'll find the magic. - Make sure you're aligning the capsules of both mics! - Start with the Royer directly in front of the dustcap , it'll put the SM57 at the edge - Move them (together) side to side - Even 1/4 of an inch can make a huge difference - Move them near and far Record each position and you'll find the sweet spot. Oh -and include us for the ride (make a video of it)
John, with your recent discoveries and thoughts about mics and recording a cab tone etc., you might want to take another look at what UAD has to offer in terms of modeling mics, interfaces, and their plug-ins. I think you might be interested in it. At least for me, their ecosystem has been a great investment because it allows me to try out new things as I continue to learn. Buying all that gear, mics, pre-amps, compressor and stuff individually may be great once you know exactly what you like and don't like.
A R121 is so expensive that I would never be able to afford it. Then add a collection of Celestion speakers. That's why I got myself a NUX Solid Studio instead.
I can't believe this is still a thing. Unless you're recording Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin in the 70's, no one in a modern day production is capturing an amp for a recording with room mics.
I don't understand what is the problem. If you want to capture the sound in the room, use AB or ORTF or Blumlein stereo condenser pair. Or even Binaural Neumann head :) You will get quite close to what you hear in the room on the recording. By the way the tones you recorded are really great, especially R121.
Before you use a room mic, does your room sound good? Close mic + reverb plugin means you can 'pick your room' . Do you want your room baked in the sound cos you can't remove it. Not many folks have great sounding rooms. If I had to pick a wonderful guitar in the room sound I would grab 'Rock And Roll Ain't Noise Pollution' you can really hear what it would have been like to be in the studio and how loud it was.
Do you have Auto Align 2? A lot of times, it's not as simple as just flipping the phase on the other mic, you may be getting some cancellation still between the two sources
Yup the mic sound better than the camera.... sounds nice actually. but just the same as the the mic audio does not sound the same as the amp in the room..... my laptop speakers are not high fidelity playback either (or phones when I do that). One thing to note, BTW, is that ribbon mic is much more sensitive to preamp impedance than the sm57. Also needs a high gain preamp (60 to 70db) with low noise because the level is low. I had to get a separate preamp for that mic. It does sound nicer with the mic than modeler.... maybe just a real room.
Amps in a room vs. amps on a record are very much different things. I don't think it has ever been the goal with a royer and an SM57 to capture what we're hearing in the room. It's also not the goal of those tools to reproduce what we're hearing on the record. Modeler, in the room, on a recording, on a stage, all different things. And it's just my two cents but one sound is not likely going to fit all of those. Uncle Larry doesn't say he uses the same mics on a stage I don't think... I believe we should dial a sound for a scenario
Go check out Johan Segeborn's videos, if you haven't already. Man, I haven't watched one of his videos in a couple of years! He can make small solid state combos sound huge. Amongst many things he also covers how to record stuff with microphones.
Not all ears are the same, and hearing declines with age and exposure to loud noises. Here are typical results per decade: "20s: Peak hearing ability, most can hear up to 20,000 Hz. 30s: Subtle changes begin, slight difficulty with very high frequencies. 40s: High-frequency loss noticeable, trouble hearing above 15,000 Hz. 50s: Accelerated decline, especially in men; speech frequencies affected. 60s: One in three have hearing loss; lower frequencies impacted. 70s: Wider range of frequencies affected; hearing aids often necessary. 80s+: Over half have hearing loss; continued decline across all frequencies." "Musicians who play relatively loud music regularly are at a significantly higher risk of hearing loss compared to the general population. While exact rates of hearing loss per decade are not specified in the search results, we can infer the following progression: 40s-50s: Accelerated decline, especially affecting speech frequencies (500-3000 Hz). 50s-60s: One in three musicians may have some degree of hearing loss. 60s and beyond: Wider range of frequencies affected, with hearing aids often becoming necessary." "It's important to note that musicians are nearly four times as likely to develop noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) as the general public. Studies show that 52% of classical musicians and 30% of rock musicians were found to have some degree of permanent hearing loss. Additionally, 60% of classical musicians have some degree of hearing loss." Perplexity AI
JOHN -- I have these mics ...you should not be able to switch to a 121 then to a 57 and NOT hear a sound difference ....your clip they sound almost identical
We have access to a lot of good gear these days. That said I always prefer an amp and will die on that hill. However I will use the tool for the job. But for me and the people I play for and gig for at he right amp with a mic is always better.
Im just an amp mic'd kind of guy, nothin̈ like stage volume coming thru ur stage monitor! Now, this takes some stage volume discipline to not rip heads off, lol! Now, is it just me or am i the only one who doesn't care for the Shur 57??? I use a Senhiser 609, just sounds better to me🤷🏿♂️
I am sorry , and i don't mean this in a negative way , and i hope you will understand that , but...... i hear a lot of BS reasons to stay on the modeler route , just admit it , a real amp with good mic's just sounds better ! cheers : )
Other way around. Bedroom guitarists addicted to consuming gear who hear with their eyes can't accept that modellers sound identical in blind tests, and there are plenty on youtube. And the more serious a musician you are, the worse the case is for real amps because there's much more than can go wrong live. I never see serious working players banging on about real amps, it's always the bedroom players.
I grow so weary of this misunderstanding. A modeler was NEVER intended to replicate the sound of an amp in the room. Period. A modeler replicates the sound of a MIC’d cab… and it (high quality modelers anyway) does so virtually indistinguishably.
Like of course it’s better it’s the real deal but like for the most of us regular jocks live on a regular block I can never turn my amp any louder than 4
It's always a pleasure to hear you play, John. And in an unassuming way.
That opening line should be your epitaph… 😂
I farted
I loved the sound of the 121 alone and blended with the 57 much more than just the 57.
its never going to sound like the amp because you'll be playing it back through a different speaker system.
Every 'favourite recorded album guitar sound' you've ever heard has NEVER been the 'in the room amp sound', its always been the recorded sound through a mic or multiple mic's blended, through your own speakers you used at the time at home to play those albums that you fell in love with (which more than likely were consumer hi-fi speakers in a un-treated bedroom/living room, further colouring the 'intended' album sound the band/producer intended)
That guy who does the guitar/amp myth-busting videos did a video arguing against the idea of “in the room” amp tones based on that argument, except unlike your comment, he didn’t specify favourite *recorded* sounds, so I asked him if he seriously didn’t understand that when some of us talk about in-the-room amp tones it’s because we have heard amps IN A ROOM before. Sure it’s pointless to expect a UA-cam amp demo to sound just like it does in person, but it’s ridiculous to say that “no one has ever heard a favourite amp tone that wasn’t mic’d and played back through either sound system speakers or a PA” like he was in his video. Tons of my favourite amp tones were amps I heard right in front of me with nothing between my ears and the amp.
Man I need to steal your licks! Awesome playing.
You want your modeler to sound like an amp in the room? Run it through a power amp and an actual guitar cab.
Very nice. Congrats on the acquisition!
Each of those mics sound great to my ears, in Sony open-backs, so combining them can't be anything but great x 2. When my 1st band 1st went into a studio (1964) and heard ourselves "close" miced, it did not sound like "us" to our ears. It took multiple studio sessions to get used to hearing all the "precision" of our sounds. Years later I was in a band that did much of our rehearsing in a studio setting with headphone mixes. It was just the contrast of live sound vs recorded sound back before "in-ear" monitors.
I know it’s not easy to do but if you want to record an amp in the room sound you need room mics in conjunction with the close mics. That’s the magic of recording a band together in the same room, all the other mic for drums and such become room mics for everything else. Obviously presents other challenges but it has its benefits.
Sorry to say John, but once UA-cam has done with compressing your videos, there’s little between the SM57 and the Royer. Only a tone difference that can be eq’d.
I use a Beta 57 as my live vocal mic. It does a great job micing up acoustics and amps too.
Lovely playing
You make a good point that guitars recorded with modelers will sound exactly like "what you're hearing" as opposed to a "microphone's recording" of what you're hearing. To my ear there is a tonal character quality from a miced amp that modelers don't have and I've never been able to achieve with EQ or reverb on a modeler. The best I can describe it is "physical separation" or "natural headroom". The 57/121 combo is regarded by many as "the" amp/cab standard, but getting the phase right is very important when using more than one mic. I've been called crazy but my favorite mic for guitar amps is the tiny Neumann TLM-102. For me it just works for most sources.
This is why having stage volume in small venues is so important …. Mic’d gives some “volume” spread over the PA, but the tone is from the Stage!!
I Cosign this!!
a close mic combined with a room mic or a few of them works great. Back in the Stone Age before modelers we did a lot of cool things like that.
John, you’re close miking, if you want more room sound your gonna have to move the mics further away from the amp.
Maybe I’m biased (amp guy) but I loved this tone coming through my telly/sound bar. I heard zero mid-high sizzle nor metallic clean.
I use a hallway mic. The guitars, vocals, and drums have the hallway mic. The bass doesn't. The drums also have stereo room mics, stereo overheads, and a mono room mic lol Overkill yes, but it gives me incredible freedom in post production. But I digress! Use a hallway mic! Don't even bother with a room mic unless it's at least a 500ft^2 room and somewhat dampened i.e. furniture, carpet etc. Hallway mic.
Stick with it brother! Those mics are the industry standard for amazing guitar tone. Play around with your mic placement, and you'll find the magic.
- Make sure you're aligning the capsules of both mics!
- Start with the Royer directly in front of the dustcap , it'll put the SM57 at the edge
- Move them (together) side to side - Even 1/4 of an inch can make a huge difference
- Move them near and far
Record each position and you'll find the sweet spot. Oh -and include us for the ride (make a video of it)
That's interesting hearing the mics separately. I am surprised that the 121 is more high mids compared to the 57 to my ears.
If you want a realistic sound impression, you need to use an artificial head for recording and good headphones for playback.
John, with your recent discoveries and thoughts about mics and recording a cab tone etc., you might want to take another look at what UAD has to offer in terms of modeling mics, interfaces, and their plug-ins. I think you might be interested in it. At least for me, their ecosystem has been a great investment because it allows me to try out new things as I continue to learn. Buying all that gear, mics, pre-amps, compressor and stuff individually may be great once you know exactly what you like and don't like.
A R121 is so expensive that I would never be able to afford it. Then add a collection of Celestion speakers. That's why I got myself a NUX Solid Studio instead.
Maybe what you need is to build an ISO cab for the cab/ speaker and reduce some of the room noise cause most bedrooms are not ment to be studios
You would have to create IR's with the FRFR mic chamber to have amp in the room sound on a modeler :D
I can't believe this is still a thing.
Unless you're recording Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin in the 70's, no one in a modern day production is capturing an amp for a recording with room mics.
For sure it’s a good investment, sounds great
and then add loadboxes like the twonotes captor to get even more confused
Please do a video about helix preamps infront of your fender deluxe. I'm getting great amp in the room tones this way!!!!
I don't understand what is the problem. If you want to capture the sound in the room, use AB or ORTF or Blumlein stereo condenser pair. Or even Binaural Neumann head :) You will get quite close to what you hear in the room on the recording. By the way the tones you recorded are really great, especially R121.
Before you use a room mic, does your room sound good? Close mic + reverb plugin means you can 'pick your room' . Do you want your room baked in the sound cos you can't remove it. Not many folks have great sounding rooms. If I had to pick a wonderful guitar in the room sound I would grab 'Rock And Roll Ain't Noise Pollution' you can really hear what it would have been like to be in the studio and how loud it was.
You are getting so cheeky it's almost dodgy lol
Do you have Auto Align 2? A lot of times, it's not as simple as just flipping the phase on the other mic, you may be getting some cancellation still between the two sources
John, shootout different preamps for those mics!
Interested to know your experience with the sm57/R 121 combo. I’m still on the fence regarding the 121 primarily due to $$$.
Yup the mic sound better than the camera.... sounds nice actually. but just the same as the the mic audio does not sound the same as the amp in the room..... my laptop speakers are not high fidelity playback either (or phones when I do that). One thing to note, BTW, is that ribbon mic is much more sensitive to preamp impedance than the sm57. Also needs a high gain preamp (60 to 70db) with low noise because the level is low. I had to get a separate preamp for that mic. It does sound nicer with the mic than modeler.... maybe just a real room.
Amps in a room vs. amps on a record are very much different things. I don't think it has ever been the goal with a royer and an SM57 to capture what we're hearing in the room. It's also not the goal of those tools to reproduce what we're hearing on the record. Modeler, in the room, on a recording, on a stage, all different things. And it's just my two cents but one sound is not likely going to fit all of those. Uncle Larry doesn't say he uses the same mics on a stage I don't think... I believe we should dial a sound for a scenario
what do you throw a drowning guitar player? His amp
Great microphone plus great amp = definitely worth the bother
Go check out Johan Segeborn's videos, if you haven't already.
Man, I haven't watched one of his videos in a couple of years!
He can make small solid state combos sound huge.
Amongst many things he also covers how to record stuff with microphones.
Not all ears are the same, and hearing declines with age and exposure to loud noises.
Here are typical results per decade:
"20s: Peak hearing ability, most can hear up to 20,000 Hz.
30s: Subtle changes begin, slight difficulty with very high frequencies.
40s: High-frequency loss noticeable, trouble hearing above 15,000 Hz.
50s: Accelerated decline, especially in men; speech frequencies affected.
60s: One in three have hearing loss; lower frequencies impacted.
70s: Wider range of frequencies affected; hearing aids often necessary.
80s+: Over half have hearing loss; continued decline across all frequencies."
"Musicians who play relatively loud music regularly are at a significantly higher risk of hearing loss compared to the general population. While exact rates of hearing loss per decade are not specified in the search results, we can infer the following progression:
40s-50s: Accelerated decline, especially affecting speech frequencies (500-3000 Hz).
50s-60s: One in three musicians may have some degree of hearing loss.
60s and beyond: Wider range of frequencies affected, with hearing aids often becoming necessary."
"It's important to note that musicians are nearly four times as likely to develop noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) as the general public. Studies show that 52% of classical musicians and 30% of rock musicians were found to have some degree of permanent hearing loss. Additionally, 60% of classical musicians have some degree of hearing loss." Perplexity AI
Yeah, I'm nowhere as fussy with my hi fi setup as I used to be.
Your playing is awesome. It would be doubly so if you took more ‘breaths’. I’m sure you know people who speak at you without leaving gaps.
JOHN -- if you are gonna get a mic pre ....buy an API 3124 ( 4 channel pre) .... perfect pre for Guitar ( a one time purchase)
JOHN --
I have these mics ...you should not be able to switch to a 121 then to a 57 and NOT hear a sound difference ....your clip they sound almost identical
We have access to a lot of good gear these days. That said I always prefer an amp and will die on that hill. However I will use the tool for the job. But for me and the people I play for and gig for at he right amp with a mic is always better.
Im just an amp mic'd kind of guy, nothin̈ like stage volume coming thru ur stage monitor! Now, this takes some stage volume discipline to not rip heads off, lol! Now, is it just me or am i the only one who doesn't care for the Shur 57??? I use a Senhiser 609, just sounds better to me🤷🏿♂️
Money wasted on ribbon mic, I couldn’t hear too much of a difference
This video was super insightful by the way, thank you
I am sorry , and i don't mean this in a negative way , and i hope you will understand that , but...... i hear a lot of BS reasons to stay on the modeler route , just admit it , a real amp with good mic's just sounds better ! cheers : )
Other way around. Bedroom guitarists addicted to consuming gear who hear with their eyes can't accept that modellers sound identical in blind tests, and there are plenty on youtube. And the more serious a musician you are, the worse the case is for real amps because there's much more than can go wrong live. I never see serious working players banging on about real amps, it's always the bedroom players.
I am spoilt for choice, with a number of amps and modellers. You are talking utter nonsense.
I grow so weary of this misunderstanding. A modeler was NEVER intended to replicate the sound of an amp in the room. Period.
A modeler replicates the sound of a MIC’d cab… and it (high quality modelers anyway) does so virtually indistinguishably.
Like of course it’s better it’s the real deal but like for the most of us regular jocks live on a regular block I can never turn my amp any louder than 4
That’s when modular become my go to
great tone. better than the computer daw.
Helex
@@toddcarroll2703 Hilix
... tailpipe.