Loved your short insights about the 223 vs. 243. Instantly learned, why I love my 223 8-5 Irons and struggle with my P-9. Biggest takeaway fro me! THX Ian from Germany
I'm glad Ian said the dirty part out loud. That there are fitters that will adjust parameters on the Launch Monitor to make people think they are getting more yards than they actually are, to entice them to buy new stuff. I've actually had people argue on the forum page that this doesn't happen or is rare.
@@unknownKnownunknowns which is why I said make a note of the settings. Usually wind and elevation is on the main screen, if not make sure to ask for the settings to pop up on the screen to double check
Did Adam call TXG or Club Champion a scam? TXG has, from what I can tell, one of the best reputations in the whole golf industry. On top of that, they provide some of the best information on UA-cam… for free. On the other hand, given the depth and multitude of bad experiences, Club Champion must have the worst reputation of any big company in the golf space. Club Champion doesn’t appear to be a scam(ie: illegal), they just exploit their customers the max they can.
With IAN having a new WITB every other month speaks volumes on the worth of fittings. Also Mikey at TXG plays clubs that are not fit for him he is more of a look and feel player.
@@socalgolf9978 I change up the top end of my bag a lot. But generally 10 clubs in the bag stay very consistent for someone like myself who tests equipment for a living. So I definitely wouldn’t say that what I do invalidates the value of club fitting.
@@blakebarone1809 yes he basically said fittings should be free and anyone that charges for a fitting is a scam - thus the “funny” last question in the vid
thoroughly enjoyed this video. You asked tough but fair questions and Ian pretty much gave truthful answers. Very entertaining to listen to people with so much knowledge and perhaps not the same opinion on some topics. Please make this a 4 times a year get together.
Talking about grip pressure, taper, etc. It seems like it'd be fairly simple for a manufacturer to create a grip full of sensors that actually measures all those variables throughout the swing.
I believe we’re not too far away from that being a staple part of club fitting. I’d say the grip being our only connection with the golf club is fairly important, right!!
This was definitely one of the very best shows. Bring him back again I would like to ask what he thinks of the printed irons like cobra and it is this a direction other manufacturers will go?
One of your better episodes, thanks for sucking Ian into the show and love Ian's insight, knowledge and swing... Lots of interesting comments below but I would boil it down to one thought.... We all have a choice where to spend our money, if you don't believe in getting fit, go to a big box store and play the clubs you pick off the shelf. If you think fitting will help, do your research prior to getting fit and make your educated decision on whether you're buying what the fitter is telling you or not. If the data being presented doesn't relate back to how you hit the ball on the course, might be a yellow flag. I've been fitted many times from a big box store, with my swing coach that works at a store that also sells clubs to recently Club Champion. I will tell you with each fitting, the clubs I walked away with were better than what I was using at the time and especially when it was replacing something I just played off the rack. One of the reasons I did decide to go to Club Champion this time was the selection of equipment that was beyond what any other fitter had that I previously went to that could "potentially" help me out. One example was the driver I bought this year from my swing coach which was a Callaway Triple D with the stock Denali shaft. My numbers were pretty good with it and I knew that. My fitter at CC said the same when I hit it for a baseline. But I wanted to see what if any other aftermarket shaft could potentially work better for my swing. We tested about four other shafts with little improvement and I think we thought we weren't going to find anything that would beat my current shaft and head. The last shaft we tried was a winner though, it was the Diamana BB that was just released and ironically enough, Ian just has tested the shaft on his show which I watched. Everything Ian had described during his testing I realized during my testing. I will tell you that I didn't gain 10-20 years with this shaft, but I will tell you that my dispersion with this shaft was as small as I have every had with a driver and that's what I was looking for. At the end of the day, it wasn't a cheep decision to change shafts as you have to put a value on if its worth it or not to you. My fitter at CC was not pushing hard for the sale either, he was really good about being fair with what the numbers were saying. At the end of this, I had no obligation to buy from CC, but I did as I got what I was looking for. Golf is a very expensive sport unfortunately, but I see the value in playing with tools that may help me out more and will most likely last longer in my bag prior to buying again because they fit my golf swing better. I normally don't post these long winded responses but just was struggling with some of the comments in this post as this was a genuine good episode. Thanks and please continue to bring the great content Tony, Chris and Ian,,,
I think more people need to look at these type of consideration. Get out and know your yardages and tendencies at the range. I am doing the same as you. I have P770 4 / 5 and P7MC 5-PW I carry two 5 irons. Because it works. Nothing more. The spin variation and yardage is what it is. Don’t fight it - be weird. Like hitting an iron off the tee in the fairway when all your buddies want to launch over trees with the driver to hero shoot the 350 par 4 😂
Hello, big fan of everyone here. I'm a golf retailer, business of one, and love the long-term model of fitting. The question is: who will be the most brilliant partnership of club fitter and club manufacturer to begin offering, standard, an additional 7-iron to every iron set purchase, with not only the purpose of being able to be a secondary club for a range session convenience, but also to be the club through which a fitter could demo a different [grip, shaft, playing length, swing weight, etc.] or a swing coach could install a molded training grip, extra flexy-or-stiff training shaft, etc.? Cheers and thank you to this panel for sharing.
All for club fitting. But when the business model does not include trying to fit with the proprietary shaft (driver or irons) and only conducts fits with upgraded shafts, then the public is entitled to be skeptical.
Agree, as I tend to fit into the stock shafts the best given I am more of the bell curve golfer. To charge the full price per iron for just the head and then the cost per iron shaft on top of that plus the grip when both are stock options is a sham. That right there is why I choose my local fitting center over the local Club Champion. Last year i got fitted for ZX5 6-GW. At the local fitting center the charge was $1164 including the fitting fee. Same set at Club Champion would run $1534. no thanks. And if I never needed a tweak my local fitting center would help me out.
@@erock1070 When I got fit at club champion in 2016 I demanded that they also send me the pulled shafts from my iron purchase. The fitter was initially flustered but offered a decent discounted price for "heads only". Suggest y'all try that as a minimum.
You have control over your own fitting. Why would you let the fitter skip the OEM standard shafts for a given club. I let them start the process and then ask to try the standard stuff and compare...
@@johnb3273club champion carries exotic shafts only. Now having said that they may have standard stock shafts on their wall but you have to pay a premium for them. For example. Say you get fit into a srixon zx5 iron that sells for $170 with kbs tour lite shaft. At club champion they would charge you $170 plus $30-35 for the tour lite shaft and $10 for the grip. So you add $40 per iron over a seven iron set that is $280 more dollars
Went to these guys over a year ago (TXG) and the first question after I warmed up from one of their senior fitters was, “How much are you willing to spend for a new driver?” Well before assessing my swing, etc. Sorry, it was unhappy experience once the fitter asked me this question.
I think it's a fair question to start, and the fitter doesn't want to waste your time or his. If you don't have the budget for expensive aftermarket shafts then it eliminates the need to try them out, and he can focus on the options within your budget
@@robertjay3687 Isn’t the reason why anyone goes for a professional fitting is to get the best fit for the current swing and skill set? If so, fit me first and then give me the prices/options. If the price for the ideal club(s) is out of reach for the budget then give the customer at least two other alternatives that give them the best bang for the buck. When I was asked by the fitter about my budget then that immediately told me that they would prefer to sell me whatever the price that I gave them. I had no idea what the costs are beyond the OEMs and I believe that most clients don’t that as well. Here’s an analogy. I want to get a custom-made business shirt. Once the tailor fits me then, I can decide on the fabric. Some fabrics may require some tweaks to a fitting but, it’s custom made to the body for the most part. Then the price of the materials come into play.
@@robertjay3687that’s exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn’t want to waste time swinging with auto flex shafts because there’s no chance I’m spending that much money for one.
It's a little off topic - as I really loved this show and hope you can get Ian back. My complaint with the two fitters I have tried (CC and PGA SS) did not allow the comparison with the club manufacturers stock shafts available when you are comparing a clubs and shafts. Yes the G430 Max 10K was much better for me but what I couldn't find out (because the fitter didn't have the stock Ping shaft available for comparison) was the shaft being offered for considerable up-cost better than the one being sold with the same head from Ping.
Biggest reason why I'm not getting fitted is cost. Locally, I don't have much options and it's $350 for the fitting. I play about 15 rounds a season and that $350 can pay for 85% of my rounds. However, if a fitting was under $100 I would do it tomorrow.
@@GolfSpyC Hey Chris, I would still take it with a grain of salt just because in the back of my head I know the full markup cost for clubs will be in play and the $350 credit is basically imaginary money. I will also note that I would love to be fitted for clubs that aren't necessarily brand new either, if a fitter could go through clubs going back as far as the last 2-3 years would be great, then I could buy pre-owned and save some money. A 2nd swing might be the place for me but we don't have them in Canada. TLDR: $100 fitting cost and fit me for the best suited gear for me from the last 2-3 years and I will know what to buy at my leisure (as deals will pop up). Fitter makes their money for the session, and I save money on the club purchases. Any loft/lie changes if needed I would bring in after I get the clubs and they can bill for that service as well. Sound reasonable?
Great interview. I watch both channels, Loved the speed questions at the end - Should club fittings be free? Loaded question. After watching for years, listening to "go get fit, go get fit, go get fit", and seeing the results of my son getting fit at a Club Champion, I relented and decided it was time to replace my recently purchased irons, which just weren't working for me, with something else. I went into our local Club Champion with my son and turned myself over to them. Being taller, I had always been measured and fitted into longer clubs. My CC fitter noticed right off that my strike was off and had me try a different shaft. Within a few swings i could feel the difference, all the numbers improved and he said i was swinging a standard length shaft. I resisted, for decades I've been playing longer shafts. I recalled that during my previous fitting with a golf pro on the driving range, he made a suggestion that i could go standard length shaft if I wanted to, but i wasn't confident in doing that since I'm tall. He didn't argue the point, so I stayed with the +1/2" and upright. I explained this to my CC fitter and we had a long talk, reviewed all of the data and then proceeded to fine tune the fitting with standard length shafts. Have to say i was nervous when the clubs came in and i picked them up and headed to the driving range. Wow, for the first time EVER I'm hitting my long irons so good. I love them. I've always hated pulling a long iron in the past but now, i look forward to it. I've been fitted before at the golf store, for free, but the level of fitting was nowhere near what went on with my fitter at Club Champion. Was it expensive? Yes. But the level of expertise matched the cost. It's been a year now. I love my irons, hitting them better than ever. Would I do it again? Yes. I needed the expertise that my fitter had not only to recognize a problem but to have all the data and knowledge to convince me that this is where I needed to go.
I started watching TXG when Matt was part of the “team”. Went for a fitting at TXG. Was happy with the professional feel of the fitting. What disappointed me was that they tried to sell me upscale shafts without showing me the difference in performance with stock shafts. I was in buy mode. Paid for another fitting and bought from that fitter. 😩
They should have showed you the difference. I would have gone elsewhere also. That sales tactic comes across as a way to soak the customer rather than help them. There are many shafts that perform similarly, but vary greatly in cost. That was directly from Tom Wishon. The videos are nowhere near as good without Matt's insight.
Consider charging for the fitting but the clubs you are fitted for are free. What would that approach do to the product mix of what results from the fitting?
The biggest problem with club fitting is that most fitters available to joe-public just aren't very good. Ive had really good experiences with OEM fitters at Titleist Thursdays or at ECPC (for example), but the indoor brand agnostic places are constantly a letdown.
I've had most of my clubs fitted and never seen any real improvement. My last new set, I decided to go to a midsized grip just to try something different. Blows my mind the difference in my game what a larger grip size has done (easily gained 6 strokes along with yardage gains). Why my grip was never analyzed makes me mad. Years of struggle could have been avoided. Why doesn't anyone talk about grip fittings.
The vast majority of amateur players don’t play enough rounds to gel with their equipment. It took me till I got my scoring down to below 10 handicap till I understood my course management was 90 % of the reason it took me longer than it should have to get there. Getting fit for gear - sure. But knowing your yardages and likely dispersion tendencies doesn’t get better by changing gear constantly. You get “different” instead of better.
Ian compared the two mini drivers on consistency. Unless that’s with robot testing I don’t take much stock in it. I’m also sure that Ping’s R&D might want to comment on your thoughts on the 10k.
I wish I had a place like TxG/club champion near me. Upper Peninsula Michigan is no-man’s land for fitting and variety of material. I asked a store to help me refit my 12 year old fitted Forged cavity backs. They said “once they’re fit they don’t really change.” Which is seemingly preposterous seeing as the fitting happened at 21 and I’m 34 now. And of course why did they say that? The next sentence “we sell these brands” meaning they only fit new product. What a shame. I hope I can make a trip to a place like Club Champion to fix my woes in the bag
Question: how can the consumer have more confidence in knowing that the distances for the purchase set will be consistent throughout the set? Example: 50* gap/A wedge carries avg 110 and pitching wedge carries avg 115 and 9 iron avg is 125. While 8 iron is 140.
It's a great question...and it's rooted in how well/to what degree the fitter (and associated technology) can extrapolate performance throughout a set based on 7-iron performance. I've seen PING's Co-pilot system address this issue with remarkable accuracy. Can't speak for other OEMs or retail fitting chains. But it's a great and fair question!
@@GolfSpyC thanks for responding. I currently have the G430 irons, and for the most part, this isn't an issue, however, with other recent sets, it was a big issue and is always in the back of my mind when I order a set of irons.
I loved TXG and hated club champion. It was a loss when they were bought. CC is all premium upgrades at all times and their fit appointments costs the most in the industry. If you know how to use the launch monitor data you can do this yourself at the big box for basically free.
We are in a time where new drivers every year or two aren’t gonna change much. Sure they might get more forgiving, but that’s about it. The ball can only leave the face so fast by the rules and it’s maxed out. So you’re paying for looks and forgiveness. It’s obvious even with the new GT drivers. People are gaining speed, but the distances are barely changing, cause the faces are maxed out.
I’ve been to club champions 3 times and have not had a good experience the last two times. Both of the last two times they tried to sell me a $7k set that didn’t improve my distance or accuracy. How do i go about finding the right fitter within club champions when they don’t even use GC Quad to measure my club face to strike point and only use trackman?
As a consumer, I thought 2024 was a pretty big flop with the exception of the Darkspeed line and some of the Wilson irons/wedges to be honest. Callaway was probably the most disappointing when it came to the woods. I thought the drivers felt and looked like absolute garbage, and they need to rethink whoever they have on the visual side of the house. I know it’s subjective, but the ai smoke was the most expensive woods line they’ve released, but looked sooooooo cheap in my opinion.
@ianfrasergolf Surely there is a better answer to your choice for worst equipment than the Callaway C4 driver! Come on, that's too easy of a scapegoat. :) I thought the C4 was just way ahead of it's time in that it was able to move more than 55g around the clubhead and paved the way for the carbon era we're in now. It won on tour multiple times including a Major w/ Annika. Granted, the .400 hosel shaft was pretty dumb but so was every other company trying to use .350 diameter shafts at one point too. Everyone complained about the sound but if they went and hit it now, it would surprise everyone with how good it sounds. You should bring one on to your channel and give it a head to head just for fun.
The Ai Smoke drivers are much better for dispersion and forgiveness from the original Paradym series. It’s also leaps and bounds better than the Rogue St. I had a Max LS Rogue ST and went to a Smoke triple diamond and gained 20 yards on average. This isn’t something I saw in a juiced up sim bay. It’s something I’ve seen on course. Shot my best 9 of the year yesterday with that driver from the tips at my local course (only 6900 yards) with a 38 (par 36). I do have a brand new TSR3 9° that I got for $300 USD coming in today. I tried my friends and I liked it a lot. The triple diamond is a straight ball or fade driver. When you try to draw it, you have to be perfect on the swing. It’s just not really a right to left workable driver. The TSR3 is much more workable. I will say though that the Smoke triple diamond is way more forgiving than one might think.
The main thing I did not like about club champion was the pricing structure. My dad got fit for a set of irons that would have been $1400 if they were purchased from Titleist through the PGA store. They were $1700 if we ordered them from Titliest through Club Champion and $1900 if we had Club Champion build them. This does not include the fitting fee. I got fit for a driver and it was $1300 if Club Champion built it and $750 from Callaway at the PGA store. From what the fitter told me, they buy components from these companies, not fully built clubs. So why do the customers have to pay full retail? Shouldn't Club Champion be offering a similar price to the OEMs?
It's a fair question and one I'd like to get Ian's take on as well. Assuming the components are the same (ex. Titleist T150 irons w/ Dynamic Gold S300 120 shafts) - why should that exact set up cost more through CC than Titleist? For my $$$, it shouldn't. Or asked differently, if I'm going to pay a $300-$500 premium, what am I getting in return if the components are identical?
@GolfSpyC what they claim whether it's true or not is that the components will be assembled to the tightest tolerances compared to an oem that has larger tolerances in their build process
Problem I have is trusting the fitter to truly know what they're talking about. I honestly don't know anyone who's gone to a fitter and come back a noticably better player because their equipment is better - perhaps the very worst players and very best players will benefit, but the Average Duffer simply isn't consistent enough to warrant buying expensive new equipment that will make a meaningful difference in their game.
Manufacturing is handcuffed. Any driver head cant create numbers above 1.5 smash factor with their materials. Unless that changes. Just learn how to swing faster for gains
I’ve been two times by club champion. Awful fitting. Only have up charge shafts. No real gapping guidance. Landing angle was awful with the “fitted” irons
So MOI is a marketing term. At this point I'm never buying a new driver, the technology is not gonna change much year by year. Thank you guys for saving me Cash!! I'll stick with what I got.
It’s not just a marketing term but what I meant was it shouldn’t be the reason people buy a new driver. Drivers and really all clubs have been getting incrementally faster for years but that’s not why they are better. Faster will be better for some lacking distance, higher MOI will help those who chronically miss hit the Driver but those features also hurt many golfers so that’s why I don’t like when the messaging suggests it will help all golfers. Sorry for the long winded reply!! 😂
Ian has a new WITB every other month he doesn't even follow his own business model. Mikey has clubs that dont fit him because he prefers look and feel.
Well, they fit clubs for a living, it only makes sense they want to try different clubs. If Ian played the game for money I bet he'd change much less often
I think he is right though. The Ping 10k is a great driver, but it's not really because of the 10k, it's just a great driver. Drivers have been 10k in the past, the G400 was 10k, and most good drivers proably hover around or just under that number. Ping's marketing just needed something to latch onto this year and 10k was it.
Perhaps you missed the part where we discussed that PING got it right....and while 10K is a great marketing term/buzzword, it's just a number - and if you focus only on that piece, you miss a good chunk of what makes PINGs 10K version so solid.
Great video and insight. Shops and fitters like Ian are doing great work. Unfortunately some are not, especially big box stores that carry an inventory. I’ve been through a few “fittings” there and not one time did the fitter actually go ahead and custom order the clubs to the recommended specs. They tried to sell me what they had in stock since custom orders ship directly from the manufacturer therefore they do not get the commission and do not move their inventory. Mygolfspy doing great work in their regard as well keep manufacturers on their toes. The importance of fitting cannot be overstated. I finally realized that on a golf trip I took to Ohio. I play all of my rounds in south Florida and am a decent enough player (5.8 hcp). I’ve never been a fan of Vokey wedges and could not quite get why they were so popular with tour players until I took that trip and played on totally different grass and rough. The wedges I had were not suited at all for those conditions. I now understand why Vokey offers so many sole designs, bounces and grinds in almost every loft from 46-64 degrees! Proper fit for your playing conditions is crucial and almost everyone will benefit. Keep up the good work 🏌🏻♂️
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the iron fitting process done by foreward golf located out of California. They seem to be revolutionizing testing all the variables in a golf fitting. @ianfrasergolf @mygolfspyvideos
Boys, thanks for having me on. Loved the chat, especially the cliffhanger at the end!!! 🤣 👏🏼
@@ianfrasergolf well we’re waiting……
I don't think it should be free if you have some one on ians lvl fittings you but most of your run of the mill club salesman fitters should be free
True professional in your craft!
Absolutely and we'll do it again soon!
Loved your short insights about the 223 vs. 243. Instantly learned, why I love my 223 8-5 Irons and struggle with my P-9. Biggest takeaway fro me! THX Ian from Germany
An unexpected surprise! Ian is always class.
🙏🏼, thank you!! It was a treat for me to be on the show with Chris and Tony.
I'm glad Ian said the dirty part out loud. That there are fitters that will adjust parameters on the Launch Monitor to make people think they are getting more yards than they actually are, to entice them to buy new stuff. I've actually had people argue on the forum page that this doesn't happen or is rare.
Unfortunately it happens!!
i've seen trackman set at 10k elevation at two different golf galaxies
Which is why you should always bring in your driver and an iron to compare and note the wind, elevation etc. You need a base line
@@ForzaOwnz unfortunately the fitter can adjust mid-fit to make your own club worse. I wonder if this happened to me at PGA
@@unknownKnownunknowns which is why I said make a note of the settings. Usually wind and elevation is on the main screen, if not make sure to ask for the settings to pop up on the screen to double check
The GOAT comes on a channel who’s owner (Adam) basically called Ian’s business model (charging for the fitting) a scam
Did Adam call TXG or Club Champion a scam? TXG has, from what I can tell, one of the best reputations in the whole golf industry. On top of that, they provide some of the best information on UA-cam… for free. On the other hand, given the depth and multitude of bad experiences, Club Champion must have the worst reputation of any big company in the golf space. Club Champion doesn’t appear to be a scam(ie: illegal), they just exploit their customers the max they can.
I know lol.
With IAN having a new WITB every other month speaks volumes on the worth of fittings. Also Mikey at TXG plays clubs that are not fit for him he is more of a look and feel player.
@@socalgolf9978 I change up the top end of my bag a lot. But generally 10 clubs in the bag stay very consistent for someone like myself who tests equipment for a living. So I definitely wouldn’t say that what I do invalidates the value of club fitting.
@@blakebarone1809 yes he basically said fittings should be free and anyone that charges for a fitting is a scam - thus the “funny” last question in the vid
My ultimate goal is an Ian Fraser fit! I’ve been a follower of his for quit a while!
I have found that my swing in the hitting bay is much better than when I'm on the course playing for money I don't have.
thoroughly enjoyed this video. You asked tough but fair questions and Ian pretty much gave truthful answers. Very entertaining to listen to people with so much knowledge and perhaps not the same opinion on some topics. Please make this a 4 times a year get together.
Absolutely would love to....really enjoyed it!
Always love listening to Ian
Talking about grip pressure, taper, etc. It seems like it'd be fairly simple for a manufacturer to create a grip full of sensors that actually measures all those variables throughout the swing.
I believe we’re not too far away from that being a staple part of club fitting. I’d say the grip being our only connection with the golf club is fairly important, right!!
@@ianfrasergolf Ian I saw you put the 245s in the bag how do those compare to the PXG 0317ts?
Callaway 2024 is a two steps above its older products from 2023/22/21. I am super happy with this years clubs and will be keeping them for awhile.
Best NPG I’ve ever listened to
This was definitely one of the very best shows. Bring him back again I would like to ask what he thinks of the printed irons like cobra and it is this a direction other manufacturers will go?
Best NPG yet. Interesting, informative and enjoyable.
Glad you enjoyed it
One of your better episodes, thanks for sucking Ian into the show and love Ian's insight, knowledge and swing... Lots of interesting comments below but I would boil it down to one thought.... We all have a choice where to spend our money, if you don't believe in getting fit, go to a big box store and play the clubs you pick off the shelf. If you think fitting will help, do your research prior to getting fit and make your educated decision on whether you're buying what the fitter is telling you or not. If the data being presented doesn't relate back to how you hit the ball on the course, might be a yellow flag. I've been fitted many times from a big box store, with my swing coach that works at a store that also sells clubs to recently Club Champion. I will tell you with each fitting, the clubs I walked away with were better than what I was using at the time and especially when it was replacing something I just played off the rack. One of the reasons I did decide to go to Club Champion this time was the selection of equipment that was beyond what any other fitter had that I previously went to that could "potentially" help me out. One example was the driver I bought this year from my swing coach which was a Callaway Triple D with the stock Denali shaft. My numbers were pretty good with it and I knew that. My fitter at CC said the same when I hit it for a baseline. But I wanted to see what if any other aftermarket shaft could potentially work better for my swing. We tested about four other shafts with little improvement and I think we thought we weren't going to find anything that would beat my current shaft and head. The last shaft we tried was a winner though, it was the Diamana BB that was just released and ironically enough, Ian just has tested the shaft on his show which I watched. Everything Ian had described during his testing I realized during my testing. I will tell you that I didn't gain 10-20 years with this shaft, but I will tell you that my dispersion with this shaft was as small as I have every had with a driver and that's what I was looking for. At the end of the day, it wasn't a cheep decision to change shafts as you have to put a value on if its worth it or not to you. My fitter at CC was not pushing hard for the sale either, he was really good about being fair with what the numbers were saying. At the end of this, I had no obligation to buy from CC, but I did as I got what I was looking for. Golf is a very expensive sport unfortunately, but I see the value in playing with tools that may help me out more and will most likely last longer in my bag prior to buying again because they fit my golf swing better. I normally don't post these long winded responses but just was struggling with some of the comments in this post as this was a genuine good episode. Thanks and please continue to bring the great content Tony, Chris and Ian,,,
Great chat with Ian! 🔥
The loft over riding the technology in short irons chat was great! Makes complete sense
Ah! nice to see Ian!
I bought 9,8,7 in Mizuno 241, 7,6,5 in the 245. Two 7 irons, my loft gapping is phenomenal
@@Leftylobber that is awesome 👍🏻 Had considered that previously as well.
I love to hear that!! People reading your comment will benefit from your outside the box thinking.
@@ianfrasergolf all from paying attention, thanks to yall!
I have pw-7 in jpx 923 hm and then hybrids. I had to order 7 hybrid as well in the same loft like iron due to gapping (and my quality of game)
I think more people need to look at these type of consideration.
Get out and know your yardages and tendencies at the range.
I am doing the same as you. I have P770 4 / 5 and P7MC 5-PW
I carry two 5 irons. Because it works. Nothing more. The spin variation and yardage is what it is. Don’t fight it - be weird. Like hitting an iron off the tee in the fairway when all your buddies want to launch over trees with the driver to hero shoot the 350 par 4 😂
The only "great feature" that the 2024 gear has brought, ...is it lowered the price of the 2023 & 2022 gear.
Class act been following him since day 1 and TXG
My problem with club fitting is the overcharging for shafts if you order with the fitter.
At club champion yeah
great pod... such a wealth of knowledge... love it!!! thanks again guys as always...
Always great to see Ian not on his own channel. And wait, was that a cliffhanger?!
Ian is the best! I plan to fly to Toronto for a fit within the next year or so
Ian the absolute goat 🐐
Hi Ian!!! Awesome to see some of my favorites on UA-cam together!
Hello, big fan of everyone here. I'm a golf retailer, business of one, and love the long-term model of fitting. The question is: who will be the most brilliant partnership of club fitter and club manufacturer to begin offering, standard, an additional 7-iron to every iron set purchase, with not only the purpose of being able to be a secondary club for a range session convenience, but also to be the club through which a fitter could demo a different [grip, shaft, playing length, swing weight, etc.] or a swing coach could install a molded training grip, extra flexy-or-stiff training shaft, etc.? Cheers and thank you to this panel for sharing.
Brilliant guys. Ian, as always, is on point.
About time you had Ian on!!!!!!
All for club fitting. But when the business model does not include trying to fit with the proprietary shaft (driver or irons) and only conducts fits with upgraded shafts, then the public is entitled to be skeptical.
Agree, as I tend to fit into the stock shafts the best given I am more of the bell curve golfer. To charge the full price per iron for just the head and then the cost per iron shaft on top of that plus the grip when both are stock options is a sham. That right there is why I choose my local fitting center over the local Club Champion. Last year i got fitted for ZX5 6-GW. At the local fitting center the charge was $1164 including the fitting fee. Same set at Club Champion would run $1534. no thanks. And if I never needed a tweak my local fitting center would help me out.
Gotta find a better fitter. Local business just fit me with a the standard ping shaft.
@@erock1070 When I got fit at club champion in 2016 I demanded that they also send me the pulled shafts from my iron purchase. The fitter was initially flustered but offered a decent discounted price for "heads only". Suggest y'all try that as a minimum.
You have control over your own fitting. Why would you let the fitter skip the OEM standard shafts for a given club. I let them start the process and then ask to try the standard stuff and compare...
@@johnb3273club champion carries exotic shafts only. Now having said that they may have standard stock shafts on their wall but you have to pay a premium for them. For example. Say you get fit into a srixon zx5 iron that sells for $170 with kbs tour lite shaft. At club champion they would charge you $170 plus $30-35 for the tour lite shaft and $10 for the grip. So you add $40 per iron over a seven iron set that is $280 more dollars
So have ya'all hit the Paradym triple diamond MAX. Thats the sleeper driver of the year. LONG and forgiving.
Been a fantastic year for clubs and professional golf
Great questions guys
Great job guys this was really good information for everyone.
this is awesome \. thank you all for doing this
This was amazing. Great conversation
Went to these guys over a year ago (TXG) and the first question after I warmed up from one of their senior fitters was, “How much are you willing to spend for a new driver?” Well before assessing my swing, etc. Sorry, it was unhappy experience once the fitter asked me this question.
Not a good look on their part.
I think it's a fair question to start, and the fitter doesn't want to waste your time or his. If you don't have the budget for expensive aftermarket shafts then it eliminates the need to try them out, and he can focus on the options within your budget
@@robertjay3687show the customer the results of all equipment first and let the customer determine whether it is worth it to them.
@@robertjay3687 Isn’t the reason why anyone goes for a professional fitting is to get the best fit for the current swing and skill set? If so, fit me first and then give me the prices/options. If the price for the ideal club(s) is out of reach for the budget then give the customer at least two other alternatives that give them the best bang for the buck. When I was asked by the fitter about my budget then that immediately told me that they would prefer to sell me whatever the price that I gave them. I had no idea what the costs are beyond the OEMs and I believe that most clients don’t that as well. Here’s an analogy. I want to get a custom-made business shirt. Once the tailor fits me then, I can decide on the fabric. Some fabrics may require some tweaks to a fitting but, it’s custom made to the body for the most part. Then the price of the materials come into play.
@@robertjay3687that’s exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn’t want to waste time swinging with auto flex shafts because there’s no chance I’m spending that much money for one.
It's a little off topic - as I really loved this show and hope you can get Ian back. My complaint with the two fitters I have tried (CC and PGA SS) did not allow the comparison with the club manufacturers stock shafts available when you are comparing a clubs and shafts. Yes the G430 Max 10K was much better for me but what I couldn't find out (because the fitter didn't have the stock Ping shaft available for comparison) was the shaft being offered for considerable up-cost better than the one being sold with the same head from Ping.
Biggest reason why I'm not getting fitted is cost.
Locally, I don't have much options and it's $350 for the fitting.
I play about 15 rounds a season and that $350 can pay for 85% of my rounds.
However, if a fitting was under $100 I would do it tomorrow.
What if the fitter would allow you to credit all $350 towards the cost of equipment based on the fitting?
@@GolfSpyC Hey Chris, I would still take it with a grain of salt just because in the back of my head I know the full markup cost for clubs will be in play and the $350 credit is basically imaginary money. I will also note that I would love to be fitted for clubs that aren't necessarily brand new either, if a fitter could go through clubs going back as far as the last 2-3 years would be great, then I could buy pre-owned and save some money. A 2nd swing might be the place for me but we don't have them in Canada.
TLDR: $100 fitting cost and fit me for the best suited gear for me from the last 2-3 years and I will know what to buy at my leisure (as deals will pop up). Fitter makes their money for the session, and I save money on the club purchases. Any loft/lie changes if needed I would bring in after I get the clubs and they can bill for that service as well. Sound reasonable?
Is there a more righteous dude in UA-cam golf than Ian?
Great interview. I watch both channels, Loved the speed questions at the end - Should club fittings be free? Loaded question.
After watching for years, listening to "go get fit, go get fit, go get fit", and seeing the results of my son getting fit at a Club Champion, I relented and decided it was time to replace my recently purchased irons, which just weren't working for me, with something else. I went into our local Club Champion with my son and turned myself over to them. Being taller, I had always been measured and fitted into longer clubs. My CC fitter noticed right off that my strike was off and had me try a different shaft. Within a few swings i could feel the difference, all the numbers improved and he said i was swinging a standard length shaft. I resisted, for decades I've been playing longer shafts. I recalled that during my previous fitting with a golf pro on the driving range, he made a suggestion that i could go standard length shaft if I wanted to, but i wasn't confident in doing that since I'm tall. He didn't argue the point, so I stayed with the +1/2" and upright. I explained this to my CC fitter and we had a long talk, reviewed all of the data and then proceeded to fine tune the fitting with standard length shafts.
Have to say i was nervous when the clubs came in and i picked them up and headed to the driving range. Wow, for the first time EVER I'm hitting my long irons so good. I love them. I've always hated pulling a long iron in the past but now, i look forward to it. I've been fitted before at the golf store, for free, but the level of fitting was nowhere near what went on with my fitter at Club Champion. Was it expensive? Yes. But the level of expertise matched the cost.
It's been a year now. I love my irons, hitting them better than ever. Would I do it again? Yes. I needed the expertise that my fitter had not only to recognize a problem but to have all the data and knowledge to convince me that this is where I needed to go.
I started watching TXG when Matt was part of the “team”. Went for a fitting at TXG. Was happy with the professional feel of the fitting. What disappointed me was that they tried to sell me upscale shafts without showing me the difference in performance with stock shafts. I was in buy mode. Paid for another fitting and bought from that fitter. 😩
They should have showed you the difference. I would have gone elsewhere also. That sales tactic comes across as a way to soak the customer rather than help them. There are many shafts that perform similarly, but vary greatly in cost. That was directly from Tom Wishon. The videos are nowhere near as good without Matt's insight.
IAN! 🐐🐐🐐
Cory!!! 🙏🏼
One day, one day I'll make it to CAN. Will be in Rochester this weekend, though, and wave from across the lake!
I spent $1400usd at a club champion in SC this past spring. It changed my game. Callaway triple diamond with VA composite synyster love it
The A.I. Smoke triple-D are amazing metals; definitely helped my game (over Ping G430s)
just an amazing episode
Great passion here!
When is Ian going to test the Autoflex shaft against the TPT Nitro ?
When will this podcast be available on Apple Podcasts? I listen you you guys there vs UA-cam. Thanks!
Consider charging for the fitting but the clubs you are fitted for are free. What would that approach do to the product mix of what results from the fitting?
The biggest problem with club fitting is that most fitters available to joe-public just aren't very good.
Ive had really good experiences with OEM fitters at Titleist Thursdays or at ECPC (for example), but the indoor brand agnostic places are constantly a letdown.
Great Podcast Today
I've had most of my clubs fitted and never seen any real improvement. My last new set, I decided to go to a midsized grip just to try something different. Blows my mind the difference in my game what a larger grip size has done (easily gained 6 strokes along with yardage gains). Why my grip was never analyzed makes me mad. Years of struggle could have been avoided. Why doesn't anyone talk about grip fittings.
The vast majority of amateur players don’t play enough rounds to gel with their equipment. It took me till I got my scoring down to below 10 handicap till I understood my course management was 90 % of the reason it took me longer than it should have to get there. Getting fit for gear - sure. But knowing your yardages and likely dispersion tendencies doesn’t get better by changing gear constantly. You get “different” instead of better.
Ian compared the two mini drivers on consistency. Unless that’s with robot testing I don’t take much stock in it. I’m also sure that Ping’s R&D might want to comment on your thoughts on the 10k.
When it comes to club performance testing humans > robots.
Ian is the best
When will this podcast be available on Apple podcasts?
I wish I had a place like TxG/club champion near me. Upper Peninsula Michigan is no-man’s land for fitting and variety of material. I asked a store to help me refit my 12 year old fitted Forged cavity backs. They said “once they’re fit they don’t really change.” Which is seemingly preposterous seeing as the fitting happened at 21 and I’m 34 now. And of course why did they say that? The next sentence “we sell these brands” meaning they only fit new product. What a shame. I hope I can make a trip to a place like Club Champion to fix my woes in the bag
Question: how can the consumer have more confidence in knowing that the distances for the purchase set will be consistent throughout the set? Example: 50* gap/A wedge carries avg 110 and pitching wedge carries avg 115 and 9 iron avg is 125. While 8 iron is 140.
It's a great question...and it's rooted in how well/to what degree the fitter (and associated technology) can extrapolate performance throughout a set based on 7-iron performance. I've seen PING's Co-pilot system address this issue with remarkable accuracy. Can't speak for other OEMs or retail fitting chains. But it's a great and fair question!
@@GolfSpyC thanks for responding. I currently have the G430 irons, and for the most part, this isn't an issue, however, with other recent sets, it was a big issue and is always in the back of my mind when I order a set of irons.
Is that steep Britt, sorry Scottish accent guy one of them performance TXG-channel guys?
How does he know all the dates? I can’t even remember when I was hired for my current position
Are my grips too slim? Don’t know, is something to be gained with different grip sizes?
I loved TXG and hated club champion. It was a loss when they were bought. CC is all premium upgrades at all times and their fit appointments costs the most in the industry. If you know how to use the launch monitor data you can do this yourself at the big box for basically free.
We are in a time where new drivers every year or two aren’t gonna change much. Sure they might get more forgiving, but that’s about it. The ball can only leave the face so fast by the rules and it’s maxed out. So you’re paying for looks and forgiveness. It’s obvious even with the new GT drivers. People are gaining speed, but the distances are barely changing, cause the faces are maxed out.
I’ve been to club champions 3 times and have not had a good experience the last two times. Both of the last two times they tried to sell me a $7k set that didn’t improve my distance or accuracy. How do i go about finding the right fitter within club champions when they don’t even use GC Quad to measure my club face to strike point and only use trackman?
As a consumer, I thought 2024 was a pretty big flop with the exception of the Darkspeed line and some of the Wilson irons/wedges to be honest.
Callaway was probably the most disappointing when it came to the woods. I thought the drivers felt and looked like absolute garbage, and they need to rethink whoever they have on the visual side of the house. I know it’s subjective, but the ai smoke was the most expensive woods line they’ve released, but looked sooooooo cheap in my opinion.
@ianfrasergolf Surely there is a better answer to your choice for worst equipment than the Callaway C4 driver! Come on, that's too easy of a scapegoat. :) I thought the C4 was just way ahead of it's time in that it was able to move more than 55g around the clubhead and paved the way for the carbon era we're in now. It won on tour multiple times including a Major w/ Annika. Granted, the .400 hosel shaft was pretty dumb but so was every other company trying to use .350 diameter shafts at one point too. Everyone complained about the sound but if they went and hit it now, it would surprise everyone with how good it sounds. You should bring one on to your channel and give it a head to head just for fun.
The Ai Smoke drivers are much better for dispersion and forgiveness from the original Paradym series. It’s also leaps and bounds better than the Rogue St. I had a Max LS Rogue ST and went to a Smoke triple diamond and gained 20 yards on average. This isn’t something I saw in a juiced up sim bay. It’s something I’ve seen on course. Shot my best 9 of the year yesterday with that driver from the tips at my local course (only 6900 yards) with a 38 (par 36). I do have a brand new TSR3 9° that I got for $300 USD coming in today. I tried my friends and I liked it a lot. The triple diamond is a straight ball or fade driver. When you try to draw it, you have to be perfect on the swing. It’s just not really a right to left workable driver. The TSR3 is much more workable. I will say though that the Smoke triple diamond is way more forgiving than one might think.
My golf galaxy is great, but they have crappy dead balls other than those main fitting bay so ball speeds always are 2-5% low
So should club fitting be free? Wtf why did it cut out
That’s coming in the next instalment…..
Oh…”should fitting be free?” (Fade to black). So not fair!
I am sure there was a bold answer. The one you cannot publish.
There seems to be a second part to this talk, as per Ian
On the OEM fitter question , the not so good one he’s talking about trottie from Taylormade 😂😂
The main thing I did not like about club champion was the pricing structure. My dad got fit for a set of irons that would have been $1400 if they were purchased from Titleist through the PGA store. They were $1700 if we ordered them from Titliest through Club Champion and $1900 if we had Club Champion build them. This does not include the fitting fee. I got fit for a driver and it was $1300 if Club Champion built it and $750 from Callaway at the PGA store. From what the fitter told me, they buy components from these companies, not fully built clubs. So why do the customers have to pay full retail? Shouldn't Club Champion be offering a similar price to the OEMs?
It's a fair question and one I'd like to get Ian's take on as well. Assuming the components are the same (ex. Titleist T150 irons w/ Dynamic Gold S300 120 shafts) - why should that exact set up cost more through CC than Titleist? For my $$$, it shouldn't. Or asked differently, if I'm going to pay a $300-$500 premium, what am I getting in return if the components are identical?
@GolfSpyC what they claim whether it's true or not is that the components will be assembled to the tightest tolerances compared to an oem that has larger tolerances in their build process
Ian's wish list mentions testing different parameters. Is this not what Foreward golf is doing?
PING, please make a 9° SFT
That happened at my fitting Ian...not impressed
What happened David?
Problem I have is trusting the fitter to truly know what they're talking about. I honestly don't know anyone who's gone to a fitter and come back a noticably better player because their equipment is better - perhaps the very worst players and very best players will benefit, but the Average Duffer simply isn't consistent enough to warrant buying expensive new equipment that will make a meaningful difference in their game.
"That's how Chris does it, not me"
Savage!! 💀
Why are clubs getting longer and stronger lofted? Are there any real world benefits?
Manufacturing is handcuffed. Any driver head cant create numbers above 1.5 smash factor with their materials. Unless that changes. Just learn how to swing faster for gains
I’ve been two times by club champion. Awful fitting. Only have up charge shafts. No real gapping guidance. Landing angle was awful with the “fitted” irons
So MOI is a marketing term. At this point I'm never buying a new driver, the technology is not gonna change much year by year. Thank you guys for saving me Cash!! I'll stick with what I got.
It’s not just a marketing term but what I meant was it shouldn’t be the reason people buy a new driver. Drivers and really all clubs have been getting incrementally faster for years but that’s not why they are better. Faster will be better for some lacking distance, higher MOI will help those who chronically miss hit the Driver but those features also hurt many golfers so that’s why I don’t like when the messaging suggests it will help all golfers. Sorry for the long winded reply!! 😂
@@ianfrasergolf Not long-winded at all (sometimes, longform is better). Appreciate the reply to the question.
I don’t want a process. I want them to get it right the first time.
That's like saying you want a house built perfectly the first time. Ain't gonna happen and it's not a reasonable expectation.
@@GolfSpyC Complete nonsense. A set of golf clubs is not a house. Get off the soy.
Ian has a new WITB every other month he doesn't even follow his own business model. Mikey has clubs that dont fit him because he prefers look and feel.
Well, they fit clubs for a living, it only makes sense they want to try different clubs. If Ian played the game for money I bet he'd change much less often
What is the biggest flop?
Ian: Chasing 10k
MGS: Ping 10k - Most Wanted Driver of 2024
😆🤣
I think he is right though. The Ping 10k is a great driver, but it's not really because of the 10k, it's just a great driver. Drivers have been 10k in the past, the G400 was 10k, and most good drivers proably hover around or just under that number. Ping's marketing just needed something to latch onto this year and 10k was it.
Perhaps you missed the part where we discussed that PING got it right....and while 10K is a great marketing term/buzzword, it's just a number - and if you focus only on that piece, you miss a good chunk of what makes PINGs 10K version so solid.
Great video and insight. Shops and fitters like Ian are doing great work. Unfortunately some are not, especially big box stores that carry an inventory. I’ve been through a few “fittings” there and not one time did the fitter actually go ahead and custom order the clubs to the recommended specs. They tried to sell me what they had in stock since custom orders ship directly from the manufacturer therefore they do not get the commission and do not move their inventory.
Mygolfspy doing great work in their regard as well keep manufacturers on their toes.
The importance of fitting cannot be overstated. I finally realized that on a golf trip I took to Ohio. I play all of my rounds in south Florida and am a decent enough player (5.8 hcp). I’ve never been a fan of Vokey wedges and could not quite get why they were so popular with tour players until I took that trip and played on totally different grass and rough. The wedges I had were not suited at all for those conditions. I now understand why Vokey offers so many sole designs, bounces and grinds in almost every loft from 46-64 degrees! Proper fit for your playing conditions is crucial and almost everyone will benefit. Keep up the good work 🏌🏻♂️
Sounds like Ians @clubchampionmedia wish list is what's being offered by @ForewardGolf
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the iron fitting process done by foreward golf located out of California. They seem to be revolutionizing testing all the variables in a golf fitting. @ianfrasergolf @mygolfspyvideos