Hey Jeff. Another cool video. Have you ever checked out Naniwa Habiki stones? I know you haven't had the best luck with that brand but those stones are some of the hardest I've used. Much more like Shapton Pros than say Chosera or Glass. I still like Shaptons better but that's another very hard vitrified ie ceramic stone to check out.
There's a lot of confusion surrounding "ceramic water stones" out there. Some think it's referring to the binder, some to the abrasive, some think it means ceramic like a Spyderco bench stone. The whole term bothers me because it's so unclear and general. I think the way you're using it; meaning a vitrified stone; is what it SHOULD mean. But in the industry and internet jargon it's not...at least not always 🤦♂️
Yes, I have used the Naniwa Habiki 1k. I didn't find it to be a hard stone, like Shapton. More in line with the King 1200. I know, two totally different beasts, but I am just talking about tactile feel. As for Naniwa, after my debacle with the professional series, I will never spend money on that company.
@@AnarchAngel1 well. here's the thing. both can be correct because ceramic can be an abrasive as well as binding. when its used as a binding method it's called vitrified.. or ceramic.. when it's used as an abrasive it's called ceramic. so..
@@jeffhicks8428 I may have misspoke..the Naniwa I have maybe the traditional 1k line..it is just a piece that was cut off the whole stone, that a buddy sent me. I have no marking on it to tell
imo Arks are obsolete stones in terms of functionality but they're still cool and a lot of folks feel sentimental about them. India oil stones are fine but I'd take a more modern water stone over india stones. I still like the Crystolon oil stones for certain things tho and the silicon carbide had more abrasive firepower. Idk what you mean by diamonds. But it could mean a lot of things. Diamond powders or slurries. Coated abrasives diamond plates or films. Bonded abrasives diamond whetstones in the form of resin, vitrified or even metallic binding on a scale of softer to harder. All of those things have their uses. For edges I mostly use the films and resin bound diamond because the films cut just as fast and last just as long as the plates however they have vastly lower tolerance and higher quality scratch patterns and just overall more versatile tool for doing edges. Anything from 120 um down to 0.1 um with grit distribution that's narrower than even high end whetstones. Resin bonded because I like the additional feedback over other bindings, the cost is much lower, the wear rate is still quite slow, and resin has it's own range from very soft more like what you get with Nanohone to very hard resin that wears very slowly like you get on some other products. The one drawback to diamond is that because it cuts everything just about the same in term of steel it is not capable of producing contrasting finishes on the primary bevel of laminated or pattern wilded knives like you see in Japanese kitchen knives. Diamond can do a lot of things, but it can't do that.
I think jeffhicks8428 pretty much answered everything well. I would say I have used those lapping films, and they do a fine job, but they are delicate. You can ruin them easily, if you are not on your game. I've slit them with my knife, just doing edge trailaing strokes, when I dug the tip in. I've sliced more than a few, doing edge leading. They really work best, in s stropping motion, which in itself, is a can of worms. That technique, has a tendency to create burrs, even at really high grits. Micro burrs are a real pain in the butt to deal with. The India stone, coarse, can be one of the absolute fastest stones, on the market. *IF* you can apply the appropriate amount of pressure. That is the biggest draw back. It will cut just about any steel, with the right force. Using oil, can make this precarious, so I would just advise using something a bit more friable. The fine side is quite capable of handling simple steels. Think 1095, 440c, and such. Once you start introducing high carbides, it too, requires more pressure, than I feel is safe. Arks are in that same boat, of simple steel sharpening. They can cut carbides, as Cliff Stamp illustrated in video, when he microbevels 10v? I can't recall what steel it was, but that video is still on youtube should you care to watch. For me, doing a full bevel sharpening, they are just too slow. I have used them, more so in past, than I care to admit. Even sharpening s30v on them. The amount of time spent on those, along with the fact freehand always creates some rocking motion, all my bevels off them, are extremely convexed. Do I have any advise on them? Keep the surface textures conditioned well. Use loose SIC powder on glass, to create a coarse texture on them, and reapply it, as they glaze. Since the stones are not friable, all the cutting is going to come from the surface texture, and pressure. I had someone tell me once, that convexing the Ark stones, made them cut faster. I can't say if this is true, as I never tried it. Those stones are pretty hard, and I would hate to round them out, discover it isn't for me, and then have to re-flatten. I don't use them enough to bother.
Thank you for this video Jef, another great one! I am really interested in both of these stones. The Latte/Gesshin 400 is my absolute favourite feeling stone, and wanted to try these in the hopes that they are of a simmilar character and this is the grail 1k version of the 400. Would you say either of these are simmilar in feel to the latte you previously reviewed? ua-cam.com/video/LLMoptW3W4A/v-deo.htmlsi=yW1GIEJ2FucBQJAo The Nubatama 1k speckled ume in extra extra hard in particular looks really interesting. I would love to get this stone, but unfortunately discontinued after Kens sad passing. I will try and find one on the second hand market incase anyone was willing to sell one. But with no replacements available i imagine it would be hard to find anyone who was willing to let it go. Would you stay the Nubatama 1k is still better than the Takarazukushi 1k side of the 1000/4000? I know you mentioned its a bit harder, but were there any other differences in feel and feedback? This one is still available for sale so is also very promising. Sorry for all these questions, with the Nubatama now no longer sold the only way to gain insight is from the knowledge of those who own the stones!
@@sryslyuguys the bernal 1k is a pretty close analog to the nubatama 1k. It not quite as hard, but it is as hard as a shapton 1k. It has the same scratchy feel and feedback the nubatama has. Which is also a characteristic of the latte 400. In terms of feedback and feel, they all are very close. Obviously, the latte is coarse, so has a bit more aggression. Would i say one is better than the other? In terms of hardness, sure. They are too close, in every other aspect, to make that choice.
@Jef Thanks man much appreciated! I might give the bernal a try. A Shapton 1k is quite hard as it is. That one is a great splash and go. Being a soaker, do you know if the bernal is quite thirsty/ can retain water, or loads up alot?
@@Jef yeah I completely understand, and and grateful for your insights. I only asked incase there was anything relevant that wasn't in the videos. Like for example some stones load up with certain steels like soft stainless under certain conditions, but not others. Thanks for the great vid!
Thanks for the mention Jef, looking good!!
Thanks for dropping by!
Just what I was looking for. You’re the man.
🤘
Enjoyed the video
Thanks bro. 👊
Hey Jeff. Another cool video. Have you ever checked out Naniwa Habiki stones? I know you haven't had the best luck with that brand but those stones are some of the hardest I've used. Much more like Shapton Pros than say Chosera or Glass. I still like Shaptons better but that's another very hard vitrified ie ceramic stone to check out.
There's a lot of confusion surrounding "ceramic water stones" out there. Some think it's referring to the binder, some to the abrasive, some think it means ceramic like a Spyderco bench stone. The whole term bothers me because it's so unclear and general. I think the way you're using it; meaning a vitrified stone; is what it SHOULD mean. But in the industry and internet jargon it's not...at least not always 🤦♂️
Yes, I have used the Naniwa Habiki 1k. I didn't find it to be a hard stone, like Shapton. More in line with the King 1200. I know, two totally different beasts, but I am just talking about tactile feel.
As for Naniwa, after my debacle with the professional series, I will never spend money on that company.
@@AnarchAngel1 well. here's the thing. both can be correct because ceramic can be an abrasive as well as binding. when its used as a binding method it's called vitrified.. or ceramic.. when it's used as an abrasive it's called ceramic. so..
@@jeffhicks8428 I may have misspoke..the Naniwa I have maybe the traditional 1k line..it is just a piece that was cut off the whole stone, that a buddy sent me. I have no marking on it to tell
Hi dude!!
Hi 👋
That why I used arks and India stones and diamond I like hardness also quick setup do u have any advice on those stones?
imo Arks are obsolete stones in terms of functionality but they're still cool and a lot of folks feel sentimental about them. India oil stones are fine but I'd take a more modern water stone over india stones. I still like the Crystolon oil stones for certain things tho and the silicon carbide had more abrasive firepower. Idk what you mean by diamonds. But it could mean a lot of things. Diamond powders or slurries. Coated abrasives diamond plates or films. Bonded abrasives diamond whetstones in the form of resin, vitrified or even metallic binding on a scale of softer to harder. All of those things have their uses. For edges I mostly use the films and resin bound diamond because the films cut just as fast and last just as long as the plates however they have vastly lower tolerance and higher quality scratch patterns and just overall more versatile tool for doing edges. Anything from 120 um down to 0.1 um with grit distribution that's narrower than even high end whetstones. Resin bonded because I like the additional feedback over other bindings, the cost is much lower, the wear rate is still quite slow, and resin has it's own range from very soft more like what you get with Nanohone to very hard resin that wears very slowly like you get on some other products. The one drawback to diamond is that because it cuts everything just about the same in term of steel it is not capable of producing contrasting finishes on the primary bevel of laminated or pattern wilded knives like you see in Japanese kitchen knives. Diamond can do a lot of things, but it can't do that.
I think jeffhicks8428 pretty much answered everything well. I would say I have used those lapping films, and they do a fine job, but they are delicate. You can ruin them easily, if you are not on your game. I've slit them with my knife, just doing edge trailaing strokes, when I dug the tip in. I've sliced more than a few, doing edge leading. They really work best, in s stropping motion, which in itself, is a can of worms. That technique, has a tendency to create burrs, even at really high grits. Micro burrs are a real pain in the butt to deal with.
The India stone, coarse, can be one of the absolute fastest stones, on the market. *IF* you can apply the appropriate amount of pressure. That is the biggest draw back. It will cut just about any steel, with the right force. Using oil, can make this precarious, so I would just advise using something a bit more friable. The fine side is quite capable of handling simple steels. Think 1095, 440c, and such. Once you start introducing high carbides, it too, requires more pressure, than I feel is safe.
Arks are in that same boat, of simple steel sharpening. They can cut carbides, as Cliff Stamp illustrated in video, when he microbevels 10v? I can't recall what steel it was, but that video is still on youtube should you care to watch. For me, doing a full bevel sharpening, they are just too slow. I have used them, more so in past, than I care to admit. Even sharpening s30v on them. The amount of time spent on those, along with the fact freehand always creates some rocking motion, all my bevels off them, are extremely convexed.
Do I have any advise on them? Keep the surface textures conditioned well. Use loose SIC powder on glass, to create a coarse texture on them, and reapply it, as they glaze. Since the stones are not friable, all the cutting is going to come from the surface texture, and pressure.
I had someone tell me once, that convexing the Ark stones, made them cut faster. I can't say if this is true, as I never tried it. Those stones are pretty hard, and I would hate to round them out, discover it isn't for me, and then have to re-flatten. I don't use them enough to bother.
Thank you for this video Jef, another great one! I am really interested in both of these stones. The Latte/Gesshin 400 is my absolute favourite feeling stone, and wanted to try these in the hopes that they are of a simmilar character and this is the grail 1k version of the 400.
Would you say either of these are simmilar in feel to the latte you previously reviewed? ua-cam.com/video/LLMoptW3W4A/v-deo.htmlsi=yW1GIEJ2FucBQJAo
The Nubatama 1k speckled ume in extra extra hard in particular looks really interesting. I would love to get this stone, but unfortunately discontinued after Kens sad passing. I will try and find one on the second hand market incase anyone was willing to sell one. But with no replacements available i imagine it would be hard to find anyone who was willing to let it go.
Would you stay the Nubatama 1k is still better than the Takarazukushi 1k side of the 1000/4000? I know you mentioned its a bit harder, but were there any other differences in feel and feedback? This one is still available for sale so is also very promising.
Sorry for all these questions, with the Nubatama now no longer sold the only way to gain insight is from the knowledge of those who own the stones!
@@sryslyuguys the bernal 1k is a pretty close analog to the nubatama 1k. It not quite as hard, but it is as hard as a shapton 1k. It has the same scratchy feel and feedback the nubatama has. Which is also a characteristic of the latte 400. In terms of feedback and feel, they all are very close. Obviously, the latte is coarse, so has a bit more aggression. Would i say one is better than the other? In terms of hardness, sure. They are too close, in every other aspect, to make that choice.
@Jef Thanks man much appreciated! I might give the bernal a try. A Shapton 1k is quite hard as it is. That one is a great splash and go. Being a soaker, do you know if the bernal is quite thirsty/ can retain water, or loads up alot?
@ did u watch the videos? Pretty much shows how well it holds water, load up etc. 5-10m soak is needed, but thats true of nubatama as well
@@sryslyuguys that wasnt meant to be snarky. Hope it didnt come off that way. Just sayin the video shows loadup etc better than i can describe
@@Jef yeah I completely understand, and and grateful for your insights. I only asked incase there was anything relevant that wasn't in the videos. Like for example some stones load up with certain steels like soft stainless under certain conditions, but not others. Thanks for the great vid!