Hey Jordan, loving the video so far! Just one question, at 5:56 you say magnesium, but Mn is Manganese. Is this supposed to be Manganese, or are the crystal images supposed to say Mg?
Magnesium is correct. There was no images of a magnesium cathode but it was illustrated in Dahn's 'Cobalt free' paper as very stable, but with negative impacts on energy capacity.
So news from an Israeli company, StoreDot claims a five minute charge time. It has also replaced graphite with an undisclosed product. Perhaps you could put The Limiting Factor stamp on this press release? Regards
Blows my mind that you're not a battery scientist. Thanks for pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone to help explain this magic to your fellow mortals. Keep these coming!
So no potatoes with rock salt today? I have realized, there's no _way_ I would learn the actual reasons for the trade-offs between nickle and cobalt if it weren't for your channel. Because chemistry is so far from my major and my usual interests, and because I am usually busy researching other things. Your videos are information-dense, but at the same time, you explain things in a way that I can process them. For me, these videos are very high value content, almost like Two-Minute papers or vSauce, and I think you open little knowledge doors for me into the world of batteries that would otherwise remain closed. I really appreciate what you do. Thank you!
Now you come at us with a mechanistic description of lithium intercalation and the trade-off between cathode oxide valence state, ionic radius, and electronegativity!? Colour me impressed. Dope(ed) as usual.
I just love the fact that you’ve gotten so good at predicting Tesla’s numbers that it’s now a big deal when you get the atomic structure slightly wrong. Great vids! Keep up the good work! 👍
Awesome videos! I got interested in chemistry the most when we were starting to draw out the electron shells for each element and learning how they were used to identify their bonding abilities with other elements in junior high school. By the time I saw my first picture from an electron microscope, I was hooked. Getting into metallurgy was a natural move.
Nice presentation Jordan, more informative. I would like to say one thing, the lattice breathing is inevitable both in single and polycrystalline cathode materials, however, it is isotropic in single crystal and hence no crack instead lattice gliding will happen, but in polycrystalline it is anisotropic ie. each secondary grains breath in different orientations and hence crack is more predominant.
Great analysis, but I would like to make a remark. In material science the term strength can lead to confusion because it is related to several properties. Polycrystalline systems usually are harder than their monocrystalline counterparts, though they are more brittle for the reasons you give in the video. In this case I don't know which is more important (probably "brittleness") but I thought it could be a good remark. Thank you for your great videos!
Thanks for all the hard work you put in for each video. I would love to see your quick thoughts on the Tesla Battery video they released and the leaked photo of the new battery pack that Electrek showed.
Beautiful work again man. The last thing you'd want is for the Oxygen to de-bond from the TM slab and mingle with the Lithium, which is presumably the mechanism for battery fires. So the stabilizing influence of the Oxygen grabbing/holding Cobalt now makes sense. All of Tesla's little improvements add up to something unmatchable in terms of performance on all metrics and lowest price. They do appear to be ahead by some margin. We keep seeing news on solid state, but it's hard to see how it will compete, even if ultimately on all metrics, because fundamentally it looks way more expensive. The bottom line is the largest constraints are massive production volumes and absolutely lowest prices. Tesla as you say, is ruthlessly pursuing costs, but really they are also pursuing massive production capacity (which of course produces a virtuous circle). Those two are win win. I see Dahn has signed up with Tesla through to '26 now., so the improvements should just keep coming.
Hi Jordan, so at the end you did a good research on dopant... like we were saying in the Toshiba video. How this can affect Lto battery instead? Maybe you are also preparing a video about that...
Great video , but even better if you could SUMMARIZE the RESULT in the beginning, then explain all details, EXACTLY like a newspaper article, MOST important FIRST, then the rest.
The 8:30 chart makes LFP cells seem much more attractive than LCO, certainly when you factor in the "spare" space and weight reduction now available in a pack due to 4680 cells. At 20%(?) of the cathode cost
@@thelimitingfactor Slightly off topic. "If I were Tesla" I would take this opportunity to reconsider the relationship between Battery size and range. Currently, Tesla vehicles "outperform" every other direct competitor in 0-60 time. Surely there's an opportunity to provide a 4680 LFP variant which has a higher gear ratio, reducing acceleration by 10%(6 seconds?) but increasing range (and regen rate?) at "usual speeds" by at least the same amount? This would allow a slight redution in pack size, providing extra cells for other use, reducing the cost of the vehicle and (probably) still allowing for a slight range boost. Just a thought.....
What you're talking about is prismatic. Rolls are easier to do in terms of continuous motion, and the corners of squares create issues with the material coatings (bunching). It all depends on the overall vehicle engineering, there is no 'best.'
Complex or what! The balance of battery performance and cost must be tricky for Tesla, but they seem to be streets ahead in manufacturing efficiency(both cars and battery production - Kato Road machines), so could they possibly lean towards performance and density with that in mind?
Remember all manufacture ITEMS have a built-in "Product obsolescence" It refers to the time and state in which a piece of technology or product ceases to be useful, productive or compatible. Product obsolescence may occur when a company stops producing, marketing or supporting a sold or developed product. So in a nutshell they can't make it to prefect. Profits to the shareholders and investors are a priority.
Nano One recently announced that their 'One-Pot' process for low cost production of single crystal cathode material was being evaluated by "a major global EV producer based in America." Seems likely that's Tesla. Are these mutually exclusive tech paths, or could it make sense to dope a single crystal material?
@@thelimitingfactor i don’t know how i missed that video. You are a super smart guy, and i can’t believe this isn’t (or wasn’t) your field of expertise. You are clearly an expert at this point and you do an amazing job of breaking down these complex technologies!
I"m not sure what you are referring to. Are you talking about DBE? That's not a coating, it's a technique to apply electrode material (both) to collector foils. It may improve cycle life.
Very interesting. This is way beyond my knowledge base but, at least based on the info summarized here, given the benefits outlined of Single Crystal Cathode, wouldn't it make more sense to improve / lower the production costs of single crystal cathode for the next breath through, or is the polycrystal perhaps a stop gap until we get there?
**blink** **blink** Did... Did I somehow actually understand most of this just now? I think... I might have. Very well presented. Pardon while I go subscribe and check out your other videos.
Does that mean you don't see a pathway forward for a one million mile battery using a polycrystal structure? Or is the one million mile battery most likely going to happen after they switch to a single crystal cathode in some future iteration of their battery?
Magnesium is correct. There was no images of a magnesium cathode but it was illustrated in Dahn's 'Cobalt free' paper as very stable, but with negative impacts on energy capacity.
Unbelievable! So just by clever usage of materials they achieved a million miles battery? We were thinking Tesla would require the monocrystaline cathode to achieve that but it seems they did it even without it!
@@thelimitingfactor Thanks for replying! Hey! The song at Tesla's battery manufacturing video literally says "walk a million miles" I suppose you have noticed it, that must have been done on purpose ua-cam.com/video/zB8_HbrxUi8/v-deo.html
I personally would not rule out Tesla developing a single crystal cathode for those applications that would benefit from higher cylce life and the other benefits. Go Tesla.
EV batteries are a tiny (if any) part of the Congo Cobalt problem. Have you investigated where the Cobalt used in fossil fuel desulphurisation had been sourced for the last 50 years?
Not all Cobalt is mined in Congo. There are some green Cobalt mines in the US & Canada I know of, and I believe some more in Australia at the very least
Jordon, I love your work but your voice; you could make a fortune recording bedtime stories to toddlers to put them asleep. My wife listens to your blog to take a nap in the afternoon. :-)
Hey Jordan, loving the video so far! Just one question, at 5:56 you say magnesium, but Mn is Manganese. Is this supposed to be Manganese, or are the crystal images supposed to say Mg?
Magnesium is correct. There was no images of a magnesium cathode but it was illustrated in Dahn's 'Cobalt free' paper as very stable, but with negative impacts on energy capacity.
@@thelimitingfactor Ah ok thank you!
So news from an Israeli company, StoreDot claims a five minute charge time. It has also replaced graphite with an undisclosed product.
Perhaps you could put The Limiting Factor stamp on this press release?
Regards
@@thelimitingfactor Wonder why that manganese mining stock is doing so well?
Blows my mind that you're not a battery scientist. Thanks for pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone to help explain this magic to your fellow mortals. Keep these coming!
I love the fact that you provide detailed sources!
So no potatoes with rock salt today?
I have realized, there's no _way_ I would learn the actual reasons for the trade-offs between nickle and cobalt if it weren't for your channel. Because chemistry is so far from my major and my usual interests, and because I am usually busy researching other things. Your videos are information-dense, but at the same time, you explain things in a way that I can process them. For me, these videos are very high value content, almost like Two-Minute papers or vSauce, and I think you open little knowledge doors for me into the world of batteries that would otherwise remain closed.
I really appreciate what you do. Thank you!
Hey man! You're most welcome!
Well said, chemistry is not my field either, but I took some as a engineering student, I really appreciate seeing the kinds of trade-offs they use.
I was about to comment most of these things, but nowhere near as eloquently.
really really really appreciate that you linked the papers so that it's accessible.
not enough people do that, back their arguments with facts
Great work Jordan, appreciate all the effort that has gone into the video.
Now you come at us with a mechanistic description of lithium intercalation and the trade-off between cathode oxide valence state, ionic radius, and electronegativity!? Colour me impressed. Dope(ed) as usual.
🤠😀
An outstanding video! Like a Masterclass of analyses and science :)
The only thing I get out of these videos is an appreciation for the complexity of battery chemistry
Another fantastic deep dive. I learn so much with each video you produce. Thank you for your effort and sharing what you uncover.
excellent breakdown. I love your deep dives.Most of this is way beyond my abilities, but you make it so even I can understand it. Thank you.
excellent analysis as always, looking forward to the remaining episodes.
I always like before watching the videos. The only channel that I do for obvious reasons. Keep making incredible content Jordan!
😊
Great that you go back and update!
Love it. Need moar!!! Thank you so much for the ref papers. Really enjoy reading them :)
I just love the fact that you’ve gotten so good at predicting Tesla’s numbers that it’s now a big deal when you get the atomic structure slightly wrong. Great vids! Keep up the good work! 👍
The battery 007 is on it again!
I. Love. You. I always need to watch your videos twice to really get it.
Another great video, so consistent you are.
Truly awesome! I'm learning so much and getting deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of Li batteries haha I'm loving it!
Sounds like the stars are aligning with this polycrystal cathode! Quadruple WIN in all categories. Great breakdown Jordan! Hope you're doing well.
Thanks man! 😀 I'm doing pretty well. Looking for ways to both accelerate output and prepare for a move back to the US.
Thank you for sharing. Your research and explanations are extremely valuable.
Like a music to my ears. Thanks for the best series on batteries
Awesome videos! I got interested in chemistry the most when we were starting to draw out the electron shells for each element and learning how they were used to identify their bonding abilities with other elements in junior high school. By the time I saw my first picture from an electron microscope, I was hooked. Getting into metallurgy was a natural move.
Metallurgy is fascinating!
Great work as always! Started a course on battery chemistry yesterday, really stoked to get some more knowledge on the topics you discuss here :)
Is it an online course? If so I would be grateful if you could recommend it.
@@jpvdl9312 It's a course at Uppsala University in Sweden, so yeah, it is online but not accessible to everyone :/
@@timlarsson1451 Thanks anyways Tim.
So thankful for your effort, keep it up!
You're most welcome!
Great job Morgan, we love ya!!!
Hey Jordan, always a pleasure to see your videos. Keep it up mate!
I've ordered the tri motor fsd cybertruck & may add the S dual motor as well ..been in tsla stock for over 5 years..
I can't wait for my Cybertruck!
Thank you!
another great Video Jordan, you have done well given this is self taught way to go man!
😊
Love this series!
Nice presentation Jordan, more informative. I would like to say one thing, the lattice breathing is inevitable both in single and polycrystalline cathode materials, however, it is isotropic in single crystal and hence no crack instead lattice gliding will happen, but in polycrystalline it is anisotropic ie. each secondary grains breath in different orientations and hence crack is more predominant.
:D I'll be going a bit deeper in the next video. Hopefully I've gotten it right!
Great analysis, but I would like to make a remark. In material science the term strength can lead to confusion because it is related to several properties. Polycrystalline systems usually are harder than their monocrystalline counterparts, though they are more brittle for the reasons you give in the video. In this case I don't know which is more important (probably "brittleness") but I thought it could be a good remark.
Thank you for your great videos!
hhmmmmmmm. Good point! Sometimes I use words and I don't realise/forget that have scientific meanings.
Great vid, learned a few things again. Keep them coming.
Just a minor nitpick, the pink highlight on the element chart was hard for me to see.
thank you for your time investment!
Amazing video! Looking forward to seeing more, I just ordered a T shirt. You're work deserves more then a like 👍
Excellent! Thanks Jasper!
Thanks for all the hard work you put in for each video. I would love to see your quick thoughts on the Tesla Battery video they released and the leaked photo of the new battery pack that Electrek showed.
Thank you for another informative video.
Beautiful work again man. The last thing you'd want is for the Oxygen to de-bond from the TM slab and mingle with the Lithium, which is presumably the mechanism for battery fires. So the stabilizing influence of the Oxygen grabbing/holding Cobalt now makes sense. All of Tesla's little improvements add up to something unmatchable in terms of performance on all metrics and lowest price. They do appear to be ahead by some margin. We keep seeing news on solid state, but it's hard to see how it will compete, even if ultimately on all metrics, because fundamentally it looks way more expensive. The bottom line is the largest constraints are massive production volumes and absolutely lowest prices. Tesla as you say, is ruthlessly pursuing costs, but really they are also pursuing massive production capacity (which of course produces a virtuous circle). Those two are win win. I see Dahn has signed up with Tesla through to '26 now., so the improvements should just keep coming.
Exactly! The oxygen can get released at extremes and is no bueno! Oh yeah...lots to come from Dahn's lab 😀
I've ordered the cyber truck tri motor fsd. can't wait! may order the S dual motor as well..i got lots of solar to charge both..
I looked at the first paper, it is great, you don't have to read it, there are nice pictures!
Killing it!
Hi Jordan, so at the end you did a good research on dopant... like we were saying in the Toshiba video. How this can affect Lto battery instead? Maybe you are also preparing a video about that...
:D
Great video , but even better if you could SUMMARIZE the RESULT in the beginning, then explain all details, EXACTLY like a newspaper article, MOST important FIRST, then the rest.
The 8:30 chart makes LFP cells seem much more attractive than LCO, certainly when you factor in the "spare" space and weight reduction now available in a pack due to 4680 cells.
At 20%(?) of the cathode cost
Hell yeah, LCO is kinda crap compared to everything else we have now.
@@thelimitingfactor
Slightly off topic.
"If I were Tesla" I would take this opportunity to reconsider the relationship between Battery size and range.
Currently, Tesla vehicles "outperform" every other direct competitor in 0-60 time.
Surely there's an opportunity to provide a 4680 LFP variant which has a higher gear ratio, reducing acceleration by 10%(6 seconds?) but increasing range (and regen rate?) at "usual speeds" by at least the same amount?
This would allow a slight redution in pack size, providing extra cells for other use, reducing the cost of the vehicle and (probably) still allowing for a slight range boost.
Just a thought.....
Perfect explanation, great video! Tesla's battery cathode will contain polycrystal nano silicon beads coated with a proprietary material 😉
Awesome video!
With so much to do a deep dive on from battery day...the actual batteries might be on the road before its all been covered
LOL Agreed
Great content Jordan! Would love for you to compare and contrast stationary storage vs EV batteries!
I'll be doing this a little bit in the 'product impact' video. :) Thanks for the support Tim!
Thank you
Naive question, but why can't battery "cells" be square to allow greater use of battery pan in Tesla EVs? Thx.
What you're talking about is prismatic. Rolls are easier to do in terms of continuous motion, and the corners of squares create issues with the material coatings (bunching). It all depends on the overall vehicle engineering, there is no 'best.'
@@thelimitingfactor Awesome. Thx. Knew there'd be obvious rationale and you'd be the one to answer it.
🤠
Complex or what!
The balance of battery performance and cost must be tricky for Tesla, but they seem to be streets ahead in manufacturing efficiency(both cars and battery production - Kato Road machines), so could they possibly lean towards performance and density with that in mind?
Yeah, mind melting stuff! Yes, in some cases everything goes hand in hand...cost, performance, density. :)
Remember all manufacture ITEMS have a built-in "Product obsolescence" It refers to the time and state in which a piece of technology or product ceases to be useful, productive or compatible. Product obsolescence may occur when a company stops producing, marketing or supporting a sold or developed product. So in a nutshell they can't make it to prefect. Profits to the shareholders and investors are a priority.
An excellent point
Nano One recently announced that their 'One-Pot' process for low cost production of single crystal cathode material was being evaluated by "a major global EV producer based in America." Seems likely that's Tesla. Are these mutually exclusive tech paths, or could it make sense to dope a single crystal material?
Possibly. This will be covered more deeply in the Cathode production video
Long time fan here. I’m curious about what your job is and what your expertise is in?
Check out my interview with Sean Mitchell
@@thelimitingfactor i don’t know how i missed that video. You are a super smart guy, and i can’t believe this isn’t (or wasn’t) your field of expertise. You are clearly an expert at this point and you do an amazing job of breaking down these complex technologies!
Is the dry film coating in the cathode process or the anode production or both? And does it improve the cycle life?
I"m not sure what you are referring to. Are you talking about DBE? That's not a coating, it's a technique to apply electrode material (both) to collector foils. It may improve cycle life.
Polycrystals are neat: source, I've used a petrographic microscope
Very interesting. This is way beyond my knowledge base but, at least based on the info summarized here, given the benefits outlined of Single Crystal Cathode, wouldn't it make more sense to improve / lower the production costs of single crystal cathode for the next breath through, or is the polycrystal perhaps a stop gap until we get there?
It depends on the use case! I don't think single crystal is required for a 'million mile battery'. More on this in the product impact video.
wow, lots to digest.
foie gras brain, lol
Awesome video but will have to watch it at least 3 more times!! :-)
Thanks Cesar, and thanks for your continued support!
**blink** **blink**
Did... Did I somehow actually understand most of this just now? I think... I might have. Very well presented. Pardon while I go subscribe and check out your other videos.
How the heck are there only 44k subs. Should be at least 440k! Please reward information and education.
Thank man! 😀 That makes my day.
Does that mean you don't see a pathway forward for a one million mile battery using a polycrystal structure? Or is the one million mile battery most likely going to happen after they switch to a single crystal cathode in some future iteration of their battery?
This is will be covered in the 'product impact' video
Any thoughts in the storedot announcment?
Everyone is focused on numbers that grab headlines instead of cost.
Magnesium or manganese @ 5:56
Magnesium is correct. There was no images of a magnesium cathode but it was illustrated in Dahn's 'Cobalt free' paper as very stable, but with negative impacts on energy capacity.
Unbelievable! So just by clever usage of materials they achieved a million miles battery? We were thinking Tesla would require the monocrystaline cathode to achieve that but it seems they did it even without it!
Could be! I'll get deeper into this in the subsequent videos...
@@thelimitingfactor Thanks for replying! Hey! The song at Tesla's battery manufacturing video literally says "walk a million miles" I suppose you have noticed it, that must have been done on purpose
ua-cam.com/video/zB8_HbrxUi8/v-deo.html
Thought I'd see Chamath in the credits at the end!
I have a feeling I would have been a battery researcher by now if only Jordan had been my chemistry teacher in high school.
Same here! I mostly pissed off my chemistry teacher and he was always slightly irriated when I got an A, lol.
Hey TLF have you checked out Li-Cycle? They are not public but their business is recycling batteries. Curious to hear your thoughts on it
I personally would not rule out Tesla developing a single crystal cathode for those applications that would benefit from higher cylce life and the other benefits. Go Tesla.
Agreed!
THAT'S the "cathode density" chart I've been banging on about!😁
Shame I was wrong anyway!
Coffee
Second watch commencing......
Def need more coffee Mr Roger ☕☕😉
He's got a very clear and understandable voice and provides great info but.... more coffee!!
pretty pictures for my simple mind
Since a few days i get pretty excited every time someone is mentioning Jeff Dahn 😀 are you still in the Novonix boat?
So, just to be clear, getting away from Cobalt is the right path, right? Because of Congo's admin
EV batteries are a tiny (if any) part of the Congo Cobalt problem. Have you investigated where the Cobalt used in fossil fuel desulphurisation had been sourced for the last 50 years?
Not all Cobalt is mined in Congo. There are some green Cobalt mines in the US & Canada I know of, and I believe some more in Australia at the very least
@@MnrBugi Not only price but more nickel in exchange for no cobalt allows higher energy density.
i was thinking ..."that sounds right but i can not imagine TESLA not having thought of this"
Jordan you got my name right buddy
Whew! I thought I'd completely buggered it up, lol. Glad to hear it!
Honestly, you should apply for a job at Tesla, very few have this much knowledge of batteries this early on. Elon loves ppl who put the brain to work
👍
more
Elon Musk is Bat. Man and the villain is Edward NCMA :)
Edgy, but funny!
Who would play CAThode Woman?
This guy has got to be some sort of chemist.
Nope, just a doof with google, lol
Tesla Motors is going to print money with this technology, and automotive will be the smallest income stream in another five years.
And Gordon Johnson will point to that as a proof that Tesla cars are not that great :D
Jordon, I love your work but your voice; you could make a fortune recording bedtime stories to toddlers to put them asleep. My wife listens to your blog to take a nap in the afternoon. :-)
LOL! Glad to have a dual use!
This is Braincandy 😛😌🤓
Woot woot, tesla train to mars
Well...I tried.
Thank you! I felt like I must have been the only one by the reading of the other comments 😁
Hi Jordan! Can you do an analisis of the proposed Nissan´system "Bio Fuel Cell" or Solid Oxide Fuel Cell ? ua-cam.com/video/9DZPzbpVLEM/v-deo.html
I’m first
I'm second. normally I wouldn't say anything but I got here 19 seconds after it was published and I think that's neat
Ouch! I guess that makes me second.
I'm Spartacus!
I'm not here...
Leave me alone!
High quality content.
Great video!