Solving Sydney's Toll Trouble: A REAL Solution
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2024
- Find your local member here: elections.nsw.gov.au/election...
Check out @BuildingBeautifully's video: • Sydney's Toll Road Mes...
Sources:
www.bitre.gov.au/sites/defaul...
www.chrisminns.com.au/tollrel...
www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-2...
theconversation.com/london-co....
www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-2....
www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-1...
www.transurban.com/roads-and-...
www.theguardian.com/australia...
www.afr.com/companies/infrast...
www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/c...
www.afr.com/companies/infrast...
northernbeachesalliance.weebl...
www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/l...
0:00 The most tolled city on earth?
0:40 #1: Inequitable Pricing
1:55 #2: Underused Toll Roads
2:17 #3: Congested Local Roads
3:47 Labor's (Lacklustre) Plan
5:12 A Congestion Charge
6:01 #1: Equitable Pricing
6:36 #2: Well-Used Toll Roads
8:04 #3: Free-Flowing Local Roads
9:39 The Nitty Gritty
11:57 Parramatta Road
12:55 Military Road
14:18 Warringah Road
15:05 Pacific Highway
15:48 The Horsely Drive
16:27 Epping Road
17:17 A Worrying Pattern (Induced Demand)
17:54 An Even More Worrying Pattern (No Public Transport)
18:52 A Band-Aid Solution
military road deserves a tram! restore north shore trams! there's your paralel transit option for your congestion charge
Very true! So many of Sydney's other stroads would also benefit from a tram, including Parramatta Road and Pacific Hwy.
There is a video out on the North Sydney Tram network that was ripped up in 1959. It made me ill watching it, knowing the vandalism that came at the end.
Great video! This is the first time I've ever seen myself in someone else's video and it was slightly trippy 😵💫haha.
I think I agree with a congestion charge in principle, but I think it could be more effective in Sydney CBD itself, just like London. Because that way you can discourage motorists from driving to the city, which will force them to come up with other ways to get there. For those who have no choice but to drive, at least they'll have subsidised tolls (funded by this CBD congestion charge).
See, your Parramatta Road idea works amazingly - a reverse toll that punishes those who drive on the surface road and rewards those who go underground. It makes a lot of sense. Trouble is, as you yourself admitted, it works less well on roads like The Horsley Drive, Warringah Road and Military Road. I was expecting one of your "worrying patterns" to be the fact that the most congested roads are also the ones that have few to no PT/toll road alternatives...which makes sense!
Now, there is a problem. A Sydney CBD congestion charge does less about reducing traffic on local roads, other than funding toll rebates that might encourage people off local roads. A focused congestion charge directly forces people off local roads. But a focused congestion charge would be a lot more controversial, especially on a road like Warringah Road where there is no alternative.
Thanks for your reply, very good points! As you said, a focussed congestion charge would only work on a select few roads, but I do think it would be an effective revenue raiser on the roads like Parramatta Rd that it would work on - especially when you consider that only two toll roads are able to pay for half the current toll relief. Even just the addition of P'matta Rd, the Pacific Hwy, and Epping Rd might cover the rest! It would also work very well in the CBD too, I think.
I definitely didn't give PT enough time in this video - its focus was on better short-term solutions, but PT is essential to fix the problem long term.!
Mate, your videos are criminally underrated. The production quality, the ideas, the editing - it's incredible. This is 500k subscriber-UA-camr content. Please never stop, one day the algorithm will properly pick you up and you'll go massive. I'm very glad I got recommended one of your videos. Love your content!
Thanks, I really appreciate that! My last video is getting more views than normal so hopefully this is the start of the algorithm's benevolence haha
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism
...still under 2k views???
...this comment may be justly deemed to be devoid of any real content, but then again
...i guess the algorithm needs to be fed? o_O
(...thx for the great video btw ^^ )
I suspect this video may be a controversial one, but there's never going to be an easy way out of a legally binding monopoly screwing over our road system! I'm very keen to hear everyone's opinions on this idea, let me know your thoughts and ideas in the comments.
Contact your local member with your thoughts about solving our toll trouble: elections.nsw.gov.au/elections/find-my-electorate
Call out to fellow urbanists: Tolled roads are good! It discourages driving. Only local roads should remain free -- just rip up some tarmac, restrict it to local traffic, bikes and scooters. Trees and café tables. ARTERIAL ROADS should be tunnels, not mixed with shopping strips, like "stroads".
For Military Rd, this is why I was disappointed with the cancelation of the Beaches Link - it would have been a very good opportunity to convert Military Rd into a local two-lane road (or 4 lanes, with 2 for buses), but instead, now we're stuck with the sad rundown stroad with no alternative apart from B-line services that aren't reliable.
But in all honestly, the Northern Beaches should have a metro or heavy rail link.
I definitely think a northern beaches metro is the way to go. It wouldn't bring more cars into the city like the Beaches Link would have, but it would allow Military Road into a more people-friendly space
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism Indeed - the only reason why I wasn't super optimistic about that is because no party has the political willpower to ever build the Sydney Metro Northern Beaches.
@@nperceived Yep the residents up there can be a force to reckon with unfortunately
Maybe we need to send the money on rail to upgrade and expand the network
definitely - this is the only viable solution long term
Remember when the eastern distributor was opened and the government closed all the other roads to force people to use it
They can do the same with roads around Parramatta Rd.
Here in Oslo, Norway we have a toll ring around the city center. It doesn’t matter which street or road you choose. You can not drive through local residentiial streets.
That's the sensible way to do it - in Sydney, the tolls almost encourage driving through local streets in the city centre
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanismtollways also encourage use of residential streets in the suburbs, using residential streets as an alternative. The motorways MUST not be tolled.
Great video! Main thing I'd mention is showing these roads more clearly on a map, because I couldn't place them all by name 😊
True! Good suggestion
If a city built a cycleway that only carried 32-45 percent of expected volume it would swiftly be removed and they wouldn't build any more.
I live on the central coast if I go to Sydney airport by toll roads $9.23 northconex $4.61 M2 $3.77 Lane cove tunnel $4.00 harbour tunnel $8.94 = $30.55 one way this is ridiculous just to go to the airport from the coast
Tolls shouldn't be uniform, or to repay construction costs (or to boost profits). They provide an incentive to public transport, and raise revenue to subsidise public transport. The level and location of tolls should be based on how well they do these jobs.
This would be a great way to implement tolls and would be more akin to the congestion charge I mentioned. Currently the toll profits largely go to Transurban, depending on how much of the road they own (it's different for different roads) and some of their contracts (for the M2 and eastern distributor specifically) contain anti-competition clauses that specifically target public transport since that would hurt their profits, which is unfortunately the purpose of many of the tolls in Sydney.
Another solution... EVERYONE just STOP using the toll roads. Make them liabilities for Transurban to hold on to, not assets. When/if the company liquidates, the NSW Government can buy them back for a reasonable price (assuming Transurban even still exists at that point in time), and then Sydneysiders and NSW taxpayers will finally be free of this money-go-round circus once and for all.
Now there's an idea - potentially very effective but I'd imagine very difficult to coordinate
Unfortunately some people do require having to use the toll roads, either due to work connections or medical and onwards. Stupid how our previous govt just signed an agreement with transurban for them to own these toll roads until 2060 with no public discourse about it prior, so we're stuck with private roadways for 40 something years (buying it back would cost too much)
As interesting of a solution this is, people will find another way to use local roads without getting charged.
How so?
I live a couple of km from pennant hills road the area between Thompsons corner to north rocks road is always heavily trafficked
Princes Highway from Kogarah to the city too. The route number diverts at President Avenue anyway and just clogs King Street in Newtown.
And even more so Canterbury Road. If the government is serious about the Metro to Bankstown being such a boon, then funnel more people on it.
Nonetheless a great video. Most of these stroads could be turned into mixed BRT/tram lines with cycle paths down the side.
Those would both be great options! I definitely agree with the BRT/tram lines and cycle paths - this video was mostly focussed on short term solutions but adding bus lanes and pop-up cycleways would be very quick and cheap.
I'm not sure the approach of congestion charging individual roads makes sense, as drivers may simply be forced onto side streets and local roads anyway to avoid both the toll and congestion charges. The better way would be to just have a blanket congestion charge on the CBD and inner city areas. If the charge is large enough it could fully substidise the tolls on the tunnels, and make these roads the obvious choice. Congestion charging could only occur when entering the CBD surface roads, so those travelling under the city on a toll road wouldn't pay it either. People in the inner city will be happy to have less congestion, those in the west won't be penalized for travelling to places outside the CBD which aren't as well connected with public transport. The only people negatively impacted are those in inner city areas who drive to the CBD, despite having good alternatives. Limited political obstacles and limited negative externalities created..
The less congestion on local roads is a bit of a bullshit point, which is constantly espoused by TfNSW and Transurban. At least, I don't think the statement is entirely true. If it were changed to something like... "Less congestion on some local roads, but more congestion on others, but also more congestion overall." ("local" here meaning any non-toll road). I would wholly agree. Toll roads, (and by that, I really mean any motorway or freeway, since most of them are tolled) reduce travel times for the majority of people travelling by car. Unfortunately, you would be hard pressed to find someone whose entire route to work was along a toll road. There is almost always some section of the journey that involves the use of non-toll roads, and they are the roads that tend to suffer because of the induced demand. Solution? Do what (I think it's Hillsbus) did, provide a direct bus service along the M2 in its own dedicated lane) and weed out the people who don't really need to drive
Yeah definitely, most of the top 5 congested roads in Sydney I looked at were connected to a toll road - makes me very glad NSW likely won't build more expensive and traffic-inducing motorways. Express busses through the toll roads is a fantastic idea, especially on the congested and PT-poor routes like the M7!
There's another way to significantly reduce congestion. I realise it's not for everyone, but if just 10% of car drivers switched to motorcycles it would reduce congestion by around 25%. And if 25% miraculously switched to motorcycles there would be no congestion at all. Throw in the re-introduction of cheaper tolls for motorcycles & you have a recipe for lowering congestion, reducing road maintenance costs and providing toll relief. Throw in more bus lanes, which motorcycles & taxi's can also legally use, and you create a greater incentive for drivers to switch while also improving some public transport options.
For those of you who fear the risks of riding a motorcycle, the increase in motorcycle riders on our roads has significantly reduced the risks & more riders would reduce the risks even further as drivers become more aware of riders through an increase of the frequency of their interaction with them.
That's a great point. Not as ideal as bicycle/train combos or bus rapid transit, but a very solid option for a dense city centre surrounded by suburban sprawl. Replacing cars with motorbikes would also mean less parking in the city which would be fantastic as well. The only problem I see is the noise pollution, but motorbikes are still quieter than some of the modded cars you get revving up and down the CBD haha
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism You obviously haven't heard modern motorcycles. The stock exhausts for most motorcycles made from 2010 are very quiet. So much so that the other day I thought that a nearby motorcyclist had left his headlight on, only to faintly hear that the motor was still running when I got within a couple of meters of it. The Honda CB125F, the cheapest new motorcycle in Australia, for example has a maximum noise level of 73.5dB, which is about the same as a washing machine in operation.
@@punchbuggyyellow7097 That's fantastic! I guess I haven't heard them since they're so quiet haha.
Just cover your plates problem solved
what's the source for that map at 18:11 ?
I don't think it's in any current government documents since it hasn't progressed very far politically, this is where I found it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MetroLink.png
I’m against congestion charges. Why? It’ll effect the workers more so. Sometimes we need to drive to richer areas to go to work due to options too time-consuming. Not everyone works or lives near railways.
I suggest improving our freeway system with more and more tunnels and then we have alternative options and can improve surface roads and transport.
Also, employers should be encouraged to offer more Work from Home options and facilities. That would assist congestion immediately.
Following UK’s more taxes option doesn’t help.
These are some great points. The benefit of a congestion tax over our current toll system, though, is that it will be publicly run and therefore able to offer concessions. I mentioned significant concessions to residents in this video but including similarly significant concessions for work vehicles would be great, too.
Your point about not everyone living or working near railways is also really important. This is why we need to focus on expanding our railway network, which is similarly expensive to building underground tunnels but way more beneficial because it doesn't pollute and it doesn't cause congestion on each end of the tunnel. It can also transport more people in the same amount of tunnel space than an underground highway.
I've worked as a gardener and had to drive a work vehicle around and the morning peak time was terrible for that - this was in Canberra, so I can only imagine it would be worse in Sydney. Sydney is lucky, though, since we have so many other transport options that we could encourage commuters to use so the roads have more space for people in work vehicles who would get a congestion charge concession since it's usually essential that they drive.
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism I agree. More rail is needed and can we put a stop to businesses moving away from the CBD/North Sydney/etc? Why? Our transport is concentrated into the CBD. Try getting public transport from Malabar to Parramatta or Menai to Norwest Business Park. Gggrrrrr.
Another point: why aren’t more buses using the motorways and tunnels? Example: Buses from SW Sydney using the M5 and Eastern Distributor into the city or Bondi. Or Burwood to Randwick via the new Westconnex tunnel? The demand is there.
It's contradictory to complain about "underused toll roads" when they're private already (and complaining that they're private).
It's contradictory to complain about tolls on new roads, as well as induced demand.
But that's why I'm also pro-selling the motorways which helps pay for new metro lines. (Metro Northwest is parallel to the M2)
(Lane Cove Tunnel isn't an alternative to the M2 … they are consecutive not parallel)
Absolutely clear agreement with adding public transport to the west.
Absolutely clear agreement to shutting Parramatta Road and Military Road - just like …
Crown Street was such a success when the M1 tolled tunnel opened (Eastern Distributor) that we've basically forgotten it.
It's hilarious the the M1 ED is a tolled tunnel but gets none of the hate like WestConnex. Crown Street was absolutely Highway 1.
Beaches Link was going to be the northern end of the "M8" and let you close Military Road. The B-Line would use it.
Beaches Link would also finally fix the mistake that was Roseville Bridge (which only exists because the Warringah Fwy didn't use it).
The Northern Beaches is amazing in resisting rail. JJ Bradfield tried and even got two rails on the Harbour Bridge for it. But he too failed.
The problem with the toll roads isn't so much that they're tolled, it's that the tolls are partially for shareholder profits rather than simply paying the cost of the road, governments still have to pay for road maintenance rather than Transurban, and that the tolls are also spread inequitably around Sydney, often specifically targeting both financially and public transport-poor areas.
When I say "under-used" I mean relative to local roads - local arterial roads, not local streets, so they can't really be closed to all through traffic. These are your Parramatta Roads, Military Roads, etc. The terminology could have been clearer there. Essentially, people haven't gone from the Parramatta Roads to the M4s due to the high tolls on the M4s and the lack of "sticks" on the Parramatta Roads.
The narrative that toll roads allow us to give stroads back from cars to people is only sometimes true and it depends on what is done to the stroad after the tollway is built. Parramatta Road is the perfect example of where cars were not dissuaded from using the road and so the M4 didn't help it. Military Road could have very well gone the same way.
Fingers crossed that one day the Northern Beaches gets a railway!
The tolls are privately owned, therefore are there permanently and the cost of which can be increased. Metro is its own disaster so i'll spare that point but difference between the m1 and Westconnex is we paid for it to be built yet its owned by a private company affiliated with our former govt's politicians
@@ClamTram96 Luckily they're not privately owned forever, so not quite permanent - Transurban's lease on some of the tolls ends next decade, although there are a lot that will be Transurban owned til 2060 which is basically forever unfortunately
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism (I'll let that Northern Beaches railway comment pass - it's a "third rail" issue, and I've learned to relax about it ever since I learned even the magician JJ Bradfield couldn't make it happen)
Agree with the road maintenance point. It's a matter of contracts though! Nobody talks about "governments could write better contracts" because it's SO DULL and wonky. But contracts make ALL the difference when it comes to privatised anything.
As for Parramatta Road: We all want the same thing haha! And now the rubber hits the road -- it's time to get cracking and pull up some tarmac. I really think Westconnex has made a a Beautiful Parramatta Road far more likely than before, but that doesn't mean we don't need to FIGHT for it this decade.
How about the State Government compulsory acquire TransUrban? More controversial, sure. But will get the monopoly out of the way!
Very true! If they could pull that off I think that would be the better solution
That would cost 32 billion dollars?
And mean buying out roads in other states and the USA....
Now fix up a video essay on Shark Tale
This one is actually about Shark Tale fish traffic if you find the secret codes in it
they need to get rid of the toll they readded on the M4
The M4 is 50% owned by Transburban until 2060 so removing it isn't really up to democratic decision
Simple solution really, build more metro lines.
Great but Metro lines take 4-7 years once construction starts, with a couple of years lead-in and procurement time. We need to halve emissions by 2030, and reduce by 75% by 2035.
Once the new Metro line through the city opens, you can run 60% more trains through the city than you can right now as the Bankstown line doesnt need to merge with the city circle and capacity is freed up on the Illawarra line. I think we should use this capacity injection to put a blanket speed limit across the city of 30kmh, close a lane on every single street for a protected cycling lane, bring in congestion charges, direct cross-city traffic to the tunnels and then reassess where we go from there.
Definitely - I did mention that towards the end, with emphasis on the Northern Beaches and Western Sydney Airport, but perhaps didn't give it enough emphasis. Kyle Topfer makes some great points as well!
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism One other problem is the issue of North/South connectivity on the rail and bus network, which is kind of one thing WestConnex (poorly) tried to look at. The L1 does a pretty poor job in this role, linking the new Metro West, the Inner West and the Bankstown line rather clumsily and slowly, with poor interchange design, several hundred metre walks and low frequency. There is a planned Kogarah-Kingswood-Bankstown-Parramatta Metro line which goes some way to addressing this, but that is decades away.
I dunno how to solve this quickly and without costing billions, perhaps a short-term solution could be some sort of light rail or BRT from Hurstville-Wiley Park via Roselands or I'm open to other ideas. Or a redesign of bus networks to run cross-town and feed the rail corridors, then the trains do the heavy lifting through the city and connecting important locations. If we treated climate breakdown as the real threat it is, all options would be on the table including using bits of the road network and even the toll roads for public transport exclusively, as best suits our decarbonisation needs.
Yeah that's a huge issue. When I used to live in the inner west I'd often go to Hurstville, and I found it was often quicker to bike for 50 minutes than catch two badly-connected busses. Better busses would be a quick and effective solution, and if a tram were installed it would work wonders on the streets it went through (Norton St, Crystal St, Marrickville Rd, etc.) I've often thought if it would be possible for rail to somehow run through the tunnels that are currently being used for motorways.
@@ChrisTopher_Urbanism for sure converting the motorway infrastructure to rail would be technically possible, i thought about this for the M2 instead of how they built NW Metro.
Capitalism has its benefits, but uncontrolled capitalism simply makes profit for the rich. The upside of making it more expensive to drive your car is that it may motivate more and better public transportation.
Very true, but a better way to do that would be to congestion price roads that weren't built for cars and are full of car traffic like Parramatta Rd, especially since a lot of those roads have alternatives in place already. It makes sense from an equity point of view to price those roads rather than the roads that currently have no public transport alternative