Can we just take a second to appreciate how much trouble Min went to when researching the power supply example and creating these slides. Robert is asking some very good questions, and Min shows an exquisite understand of the DUT from his in-house "pre-compliance" configuration. I'm part way through Min's paid online EMC training course, and I can say his attention to detail and ability to explain things in practical terms is a hallmark.
@@RobertFeranec I really like the interview techniques here too. It can be hard for someone as knowledgeable as Min Zhang not to skip over detail which he takes for granted, you did a great job of presenting all the detail
Thank you for bringing experts who can show us experiments and not only talking about theory. This guy just goes straight to the point and that's usefull! Big like and respect for such people!
I've often asked other channels to measure the noise of these convertors, so it's really useful to see it done here at last. This should help my problem with using one in a car, as it's interfering with the radio. Thanks
I recently had an issue passing CE102 from 300KHz to 1MHz. I decided to come to youtube to find help and came across this wonderful video. I would like to thank you and Min for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge. Turns out, simply increasing the total input capacitance was enough to be below the limit!! THANK YOU!!!😃
It is so nice that we can watch this kinda talk video for free, thanks to Robert. I am sure it's gonna cost a good amount of money to have a workshop outside with all the juicy content like this.
Excellent video. I have spent two weeks to collect and watch all these information and techniques about EMI/EMC and PCB layout of a buck converter before watching this. The video is definitely a great short and detail summary of showing how to complete your EMI debug and filter design.
Thanks so much to Min for the great slides, and for taking the time to apply the improvements incrementally and reveal the various noise contributors. So insightful. Thanks for organizing this, Robert. I really hope to see more videos featuring Min. The intro, theory, process, simulation, measurements, setup, slides were great. Thank you!
A gem from you Robert, amazing explanation in such a simple way step by step by Min. Would love to have more such practical case studies. Also tekbox LISN for measuring common mode & differential mode performance is very helpful. I learned that for the first time, didn't knew before about it. Thanks for the amazing content.
I was trying to design a buck converter for an automotive application and suddenly saw this video on youtube. it's so useful. tanks a lot and I can't wait for another video about EMC.
Really it is super useful to understand the filter simulation and how to deal with EMI. After watching this video hardware engineers can easily understand the EMI and its filtering. It is really a very good effort made by both of you. Thanks.
My levels of watching these videos: 1. Audio in the background while working, occasional Alt+Tab if stuff sounds interesting 2. Dedicated watching because it sounded interesting during the day 3. Re-watching with a notepad to take notes / draw up tables / etc
I am making a challenging product for my company... and i have also make DC-DC Buck convert for High Amp Power Supply GSM/GPRS Module...i saw this video carefully....and I am very Happy for learn some important element experiment like Capacitor and LC (Inductor Capacitor Filter)...Thank a lot...
In the past 2 months I watched this video many times. This is extremely well demonstrated. I wish there's more video like this. Especially in PCB design. Like improving a relatively bad pcb design step by step to superb in both signal integrity and emi.
U r assuming that all pcbs were designed like the one in discussion, I am designing smps for military applications for many yrs and these basic mistakes are never done
just 10 mins into the videos and understanding everything no confusion happened for me and its really clear and simple thanks min and absolutely you for making this videos.
Wow. What an incredibly informative and interesting video. I am just a hobbyist but this is super useful. I'm trying to develop a capacitive discharge ignition system and I am sure that I can implement many points from this video to improve the performance. Many thanks to both of you for sharing your extensive knowledge.
Thank you for this very useful video, especially learned how to simulate filters and how to use them. I did watch the whole video from begin to end. A real must for every hardware engineer, very practical.
Hi Robert, it will be great addition for us (your viewers) if you make some video particularly on Common mode noise in smps and how it take care of it at the initial stage while designing psb and what are the effective way of mitigate the CM noise. Thank you a lot for your great contributions to power electronics world. Min and Robards, you guys are awesome. Some interaction with Ken Wyatt or Dr. Bogatin or with Rick Hartley will be great on this CM noise 😀
This was an extremely useful video! The topic is relevant for almost all products as the power supply is a critical piece of the design. Looking forward to more EMC videos as these topics are typically overlooked in college/universities.
Realizing how the parallel MLCCs change the EMC performance in practice is very satisfactory. Thank you :) Keep up. The common and differential mode may be explained more with vary examples.
Thanks both of you, Robert and Min. This video is very help for design my project, and let me know and understand much better how to reduce the EMC. Good job.
Very much appreciated both of you. Please make a video on high power SiC motor controller with high frequency circuit layout analysis and it’s EMC issues also.
Hi Thanks for the feedback. Yes, motor drive is very challenging when the device is switching fast. We might produce some white papers on that topic before end of this year.
This is an amazing AMAZING video, so much useful guidance crammed into an hour and a bit. I have watched it twice so far and plan to watch it again to really get my head around some of the details. Thanks so much to Min for the great slides, and for taking the time to apply the improvements incrementally and tease apart the various noise contributors. So informative. Thanks for organizing this Robert. I really hope to see more videos featuring Min. Awesome.
It's very good work. It will be more interesting if he explained like this The method of designing the filter Identify impedance then find filter configuration then design the filter.. Stability .. How the common mode noise is generated.. Etc he is explaining only in the presective of conducted emission. The output capacitor has very much importance in my view . If you measure the current through the capacitor then it's will be high di/dt loop.
Hi, that's great feedback. We will take your points. The output capacitor is important, but as not as important as the input cap for buck converter, for other topologies such as boost or SEPIC, yes, one would also need to improve the output capacitor
Thank you, Robert. A lot of very useful information. Very important topic. I always simulated the input filter from the other side. I think the result should be the same, because it is a linear system. Another reason to add ceramic capacitors: ESR of aluminium capacitors increase with low temperatures. I guess the results of the original board would be even worse below 0°C.
We need more like these robert....I'd love to see similar video on RF board that's failing EMC and making corrections to it thereby improving it. Excellent work as always..!!
Thanks Robert for such a valuable content. This material helps a lot to understand EMI/emc concept , which is sometimes confusing. I think it would be very nice to see practical examples of how important PCB (for example 2 vs multilayers) is in terms of EMI. We always trying to follow lots of recomendations of how to do pcb properly, but what specific steps make impact in practice? If we would see 10 pcb with different layout and see, which is best/worse...
I'm curios. There is a sharp step in the spectrogram, exactly at 30MHz. Is this caused by the SA (higher noise floor above 30MHz) or it is actual measurement (caused by DUT)? It is very strange to me.
@@velinr Hi Velinr, from 30 MHz, the standard defines different RBW (resolution bandwidth) and scanning time, hence the scan will use a different set-up as compared with measurement below 30 MHz. When I first got into the EMC field, I had question exactly like you. All the best
@@MachOneDesignEMC , that means that SA switches settings in the middle of the sweep. This I didn't know. I don't know much about EMC measurements, so I find stuff like this very interesting. After all, every engineer, who designs a product, should obey the rules of the EMC. But they are not aways clear. Thank you for the explanation!
Thank you for sharing this content! Content with real world examples helps to understand these phenomenas so much better than plain theory lecture. Of course there is lot of theory behind these phenomenas but many cases you dont need to understand all the theories.
Thank you Robert and Min, for a thoroughly enjoyable discussion and break down of the approach to troubleshoot EMC problems. More videos in this format please! :-)
Never ever enjoyed a technical video more then this one, Thanks for sharing Can you share some video about Protecting microcontroller from EMI when switching inductive loads through an on board electromechanical relay, i have implemented all solutions available in books and internet but some how it manages to reset my MCU's some times
Very good video, the only thing i wanted to say is that it makes a big difference putting the common mode choke outside the board, a lot of times the effect when mounted on board is drastically different
Mr. Robert this video is very informative . it gives me an idea how they design these smps, little parts, calculations and how they integrate these passive and active electronic parts into circuits. Thank you.
Wow, really great stuff. Good to see it making its way onto youtube. (Robert, your content is great and def keep making it ... but you were really tripping him up in his presentation, just a little note)
Thank you so much for sharing this great video For a low power device can we use a simple RC filter(instead of LC filter) to reduce differential mode noise?
Great demonstration indeed! Wish to learn more with EMI Shielded Chamber testing in practical - on high power converter boards at hundreds of kW levels for CISPR Compliance on Automotive Products
I managed to make the first comment on this video, but somehow it's disappeared. But I didn't want my thanks to go missing, so here I'll reiterate my appreciation to Robert and Min for this video!
Very interesting video! There are a few things that could be prevented by doing a better layout. Input capacitors of buck converters should be as close as possible to the FETs to reduce loop inductance. Also, I would never use an electrolytic capacitor alone. ESR and ESL are terrible. Unless it is a low current converter, the input ripple should be horrible.
Very informative video and very well presented. I have seen videos for pcb layout with EMI/EMC consideration all over, but i couldnt find any pcb layout guideline videos for a mixed signal single sided or double sided PC board design with power component switching and analogue measurments, For example household induction cook tops. This might be helpful where cost is a bit constrain in this part of the world. Thank you for the knowledge shared. Really very helpful.
Very nice video - Thank you! One question: In the CM simulation in 1:13:30. Why is there a 150pF capacitance? From which component can I calculate that cap in my circuit?
Hi, great question. It is purely based on experience and estimation, you can use simple capacitance calculation equations as well, if you know the area of the PCB and the height between the PCB and the test Ground plane.
Yes, I also have a question about cutouts under inductors and transformers. For example, many pcb designguides from ic manufactures recommend gnd cutouts under ethernet/manchester transformers in all layers.
A very good and valuable explanation. BTW, why EMC regulations apply to electrical appliance products that go to Europe but not to US ? While US needs the FCC regulation compliance for electronic products, what is the differences between the two regulations?
Most of the time, FCC and CE regulations are the same. It is really a trade issue rather than technical barrier. Each country will have its own rule, but often you can trace it to the EN harmonised standards.
Every hardware engineer should watch this video!
Totally life saver!
Thank you Zhitai
Can we just take a second to appreciate how much trouble Min went to when researching the power supply example and creating these slides. Robert is asking some very good questions, and Min shows an exquisite understand of the DUT from his in-house "pre-compliance" configuration. I'm part way through Min's paid online EMC training course, and I can say his attention to detail and ability to explain things in practical terms is a hallmark.
Uh808h
Uh808hu
How is his paid online course?
Absolutely fantastic video Robert and Min. More like this please!
Thank you very much Simon
@@RobertFeranec I really like the interview techniques here too. It can be hard for someone as knowledgeable as Min Zhang not to skip over detail which he takes for granted, you did a great job of presenting all the detail
Thank you for bringing experts who can show us experiments and not only talking about theory. This guy just goes straight to the point and that's usefull! Big like and respect for such people!
A very good demonstration. And I'm most happy with you Robert as you asked almost all the questions on the behalf of many. Excellent video.
I've often asked other channels to measure the noise of these convertors, so it's really useful to see it done here at last. This should help my problem with using one in a car, as it's interfering with the radio. Thanks
I recently had an issue passing CE102 from 300KHz to 1MHz. I decided to come to youtube to find help and came across this wonderful video. I would like to thank you and Min for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge. Turns out, simply increasing the total input capacitance was enough to be below the limit!! THANK YOU!!!😃
This is one of the most important videos in my career
I am so glad I found your channel. You have been filling my brain with all kinds of PRACTICAL knowledge after recently completing my BSEE.
It is so nice that we can watch this kinda talk video for free, thanks to Robert. I am sure it's gonna cost a good amount of money to have a workshop outside with all the juicy content like this.
Many thanks!
Excellent video. I have spent two weeks to collect and watch all these information and techniques about EMI/EMC and PCB layout of a buck converter before watching this. The video is definitely a great short and detail summary of showing how to complete your EMI debug and filter design.
Thanks Robert, it's so good to see it demonstrates like that. Thank you both for the effort put on this call and video
Thank you very much Christe4N
Thanks so much to Min for the great slides, and for taking the time to apply the improvements incrementally and reveal the various noise contributors. So insightful. Thanks for organizing this, Robert. I really hope to see more videos featuring Min. The intro, theory, process, simulation, measurements, setup, slides were great. Thank you!
Wow such quality content for free. What a time to be alive!
Long but seriously worth it. I like the details and showing changes at each stage and explainations of what is happening.
A gem from you Robert, amazing explanation in such a simple way step by step by Min. Would love to have more such practical case studies. Also tekbox LISN for measuring common mode & differential mode performance is very helpful. I learned that for the first time, didn't knew before about it. Thanks for the amazing content.
I was trying to design a buck converter for an automotive application and suddenly saw this video on youtube. it's so useful. tanks a lot and I can't wait for another video about EMC.
Really it is super useful to understand the filter simulation and how to deal with EMI. After watching this video hardware engineers can easily understand the EMI and its filtering. It is really a very good effort made by both of you. Thanks.
I think this is the best video about EMC debugging on UA-cam. Thank you Robert and Min. Well done.
My levels of watching these videos:
1. Audio in the background while working, occasional Alt+Tab if stuff sounds interesting
2. Dedicated watching because it sounded interesting during the day
3. Re-watching with a notepad to take notes / draw up tables / etc
Thanks so much Robert for choosing this topic and thanks so much Min for your great and clear-like-a-crystal kind of explanation ....
Many thanks for the feedback!
I am making a challenging product for my company... and i have also make DC-DC Buck convert for High Amp Power Supply GSM/GPRS Module...i saw this video carefully....and I am very Happy for learn some important element experiment like Capacitor and LC (Inductor Capacitor Filter)...Thank a lot...
In the past 2 months I watched this video many times. This is extremely well demonstrated. I wish there's more video like this. Especially in PCB design. Like improving a relatively bad pcb design step by step to superb in both signal integrity and emi.
I'm an embedded system engineer, i found this really helpfull and usefull. Thank you very much Robert and Min.
Don’t go for EMC/EMI testing before watching this video…… extremely well explained!
U r assuming that all pcbs were designed like the one in discussion, I am designing smps for military applications for many yrs and these basic mistakes are never done
just 10 mins into the videos and understanding everything no confusion happened for me and its really clear and simple thanks min and absolutely you for making this videos.
Excellent video. The intro, theory, process, simulation, measurements, setup... all great. Thank you!
What blew me away is we are often focused on filtering the switcher output. I'm shocked by how important it was to filter the front end.
It's the third video i see from you and i really enjoyed it. It's again liquid gold for us engineers, for a reminder or as a first approach. Thanks
Wow. What an incredibly informative and interesting video. I am just a hobbyist but this is super useful. I'm trying to develop a capacitive discharge ignition system and I am sure that I can implement many points from this video to improve the performance. Many thanks to both of you for sharing your extensive knowledge.
I am working on the similar project and this video help me alot. Thankyou for your contribution in my project.
Highly thankful & Appreciable
Thank you for this very useful video, especially learned how to simulate filters and how to use them. I did watch the whole video from begin to end. A real must for every hardware engineer, very practical.
Fantastic video. Should be mandatory viewing for every engineer.
Hi Robert, it will be great addition for us (your viewers) if you make some video particularly on Common mode noise in smps and how it take care of it at the initial stage while designing psb and what are the effective way of mitigate the CM noise. Thank you a lot for your great contributions to power electronics world. Min and Robards, you guys are awesome. Some interaction with Ken Wyatt or Dr. Bogatin or with Rick Hartley will be great on this CM noise 😀
This was an extremely useful video! The topic is relevant for almost all products as the power supply is a critical piece of the design. Looking forward to more EMC videos as these topics are typically overlooked in college/universities.
Always great when recommendations come with empirical data to back them! Thanks!
excellent! thanks for sharing. A professional and fun video explaing clearly how the real electronics works in an end product.
This is incredibly helpful! Great to see real world applications. thank you!
Realizing how the parallel MLCCs change the EMC performance in practice is very satisfactory. Thank you :) Keep up. The common and differential mode may be explained more with vary examples.
Thanks both of you, Robert and Min. This video is very help for design my project, and let me know and understand much better how to reduce the EMC. Good job.
Very much appreciated both of you. Please make a video on high power SiC motor controller with high frequency circuit layout analysis and it’s EMC issues also.
Hi Thanks for the feedback. Yes, motor drive is very challenging when the device is switching fast. We might produce some white papers on that topic before end of this year.
This is an amazing AMAZING video, so much useful guidance crammed into an hour and a bit. I have watched it twice so far and plan to watch it again to really get my head around some of the details. Thanks so much to Min for the great slides, and for taking the time to apply the improvements incrementally and tease apart the various noise contributors. So informative. Thanks for organizing this Robert. I really hope to see more videos featuring Min. Awesome.
Well, the #shorts caught my attetion at first, but this video was over than I was expecting! Amazing! Thanks a lot!
Thank you very much Koiti
It's very good work. It will be more interesting if he explained like this The method of designing the filter Identify impedance then find filter configuration then design the filter.. Stability .. How the common mode noise is generated.. Etc he is explaining only in the presective of conducted emission. The output capacitor has very much importance in my view . If you measure the current through the capacitor then it's will be high di/dt loop.
Hi, that's great feedback. We will take your points. The output capacitor is important, but as not as important as the input cap for buck converter, for other topologies such as boost or SEPIC, yes, one would also need to improve the output capacitor
Very well ming, you answered ALL robert's questions!. Great video
Thank you, Robert. A lot of very useful information. Very important topic.
I always simulated the input filter from the other side. I think the result should be the same, because it is a linear system.
Another reason to add ceramic capacitors: ESR of aluminium capacitors increase with low temperatures. I guess the results of the original board would be even worse below 0°C.
We need more like these robert....I'd love to see similar video on RF board that's failing EMC and making corrections to it thereby improving it. Excellent work as always..!!
Thanks Robert for such a valuable content. This material helps a lot to understand EMI/emc concept , which is sometimes confusing. I think it would be very nice to see practical examples of how important PCB (for example 2 vs multilayers) is in terms of EMI. We always trying to follow lots of recomendations of how to do pcb properly, but what specific steps make impact in practice? If we would see 10 pcb with different layout and see, which is best/worse...
Wow. Very good and practical explanation. I'm eager to see part 2 - dealing with radiated emission (for the same board hopefully).
I'm curios. There is a sharp step in the spectrogram, exactly at 30MHz. Is this caused by the SA (higher noise floor above 30MHz) or it is actual measurement (caused by DUT)? It is very strange to me.
@@velinr Hi Velinr, from 30 MHz, the standard defines different RBW (resolution bandwidth) and scanning time, hence the scan will use a different set-up as compared with measurement below 30 MHz. When I first got into the EMC field, I had question exactly like you. All the best
@@MachOneDesignEMC , that means that SA switches settings in the middle of the sweep. This I didn't know.
I don't know much about EMC measurements, so I find stuff like this very interesting. After all, every engineer, who designs a product, should obey the rules of the EMC. But they are not aways clear. Thank you for the explanation!
Make more videos Robert great work its continuous learning for all engineers out there.
Thanks for continuing to be an invaluable resource to all PCB designers.
This is a great video to demonstrate the basics of Power Distribution Networks 👍🏻
This video is pure gold. Thank you so much!
great video. much appreciated. the best video on the EMC topic I have watched.
Great video, Robert! Make more videos with Min, please.
Thank you for sharing this content! Content with real world examples helps to understand these phenomenas so much better than plain theory lecture. Of course there is lot of theory behind these phenomenas but many cases you dont need to understand all the theories.
Thank you Robert and Min, for a thoroughly enjoyable discussion and break down of the approach to troubleshoot EMC problems. More videos in this format please! :-)
Very much informative video on EMI. Great work. Would like to have more videos like the same on EMC. Thank you very much Robert and Min.
I love that buck converter. It was my first PCB to reverse engineer, so this video really relates to what I know about it's layout.
Excellent video, very clear explanations. Every second of it so valuable. Thank you very much for your great job. 👏👏
It is quite helpful to understand the EMI issues in PCB. Thanks a lot.
Quite happy to recognize most of these techniques, still, thanks for the great overview Min and Robert!
Nice! Very practical video for improving the EMC performance of a device.
This is a fantastic lesson! I am doing DC-DC from chip to PCB. It is very helpful! Thank you guys so much!
a great jump start to understanding EMI in applications
Great EMC content! Very well explained. Thanks
Never ever enjoyed a technical video more then this one, Thanks for sharing
Can you share some video about Protecting microcontroller from EMI when switching inductive loads through an on board electromechanical relay, i have implemented all solutions available in books and internet but some how it manages to reset my MCU's some times
Absolutely useful. Please continue bringing more videos like this. I subscribe now. 🤩
Amazing analysis and discussion! I learnt a lot from that! Thanks Robert for arranging and uploading.
great hosting and questions, good guest, recipe for a great video
Thank you bm830810
I learn so much from your videos and interviews. Thank you
It is a perfect explanation and perfect solution explanation, Thank you Robert and Thank you Min Zhang.
Extremely clarifying, great video!
Very good video, the only thing i wanted to say is that it makes a big difference putting the common mode choke outside the board, a lot of times the effect when mounted on board is drastically different
Mr. Robert this video is very informative . it gives me an idea how they design these smps, little parts, calculations and how they integrate these passive and active electronic parts into circuits. Thank you.
Wow, really great stuff. Good to see it making its way onto youtube.
(Robert, your content is great and def keep making it ... but you were really tripping him up in his presentation, just a little note)
Thank you for making this very high-quality and invaluable video.
Thank you Robert for another great video! Yes I confess, at the age of 43 the inner nerd is still alive, but that is a good thing! You make my day!
Thank you so much for sharing this great video
For a low power device can we use a simple RC filter(instead of LC filter) to reduce differential mode noise?
Great demonstration indeed! Wish to learn more with EMI Shielded Chamber testing in practical - on high power converter boards at hundreds of kW levels for CISPR Compliance on Automotive Products
Thanks Robert, I love this kind of video. Very useful to learn the EMC "fight".
I managed to make the first comment on this video, but somehow it's disappeared. But I didn't want my thanks to go missing, so here I'll reiterate my appreciation to Robert and Min for this video!
Thank you Graham
Another great video!! Congrats Robert!!
Perfect for Beginners to learn more about it. thx Guys!!!
Thank you for this video, I learn a lot :)
Very interesting. Thanks for the simple explanations
Very interesting video! There are a few things that could be prevented by doing a better layout. Input capacitors of buck converters should be as close as possible to the FETs to reduce loop inductance. Also, I would never use an electrolytic capacitor alone. ESR and ESL are terrible. Unless it is a low current converter, the input ripple should be horrible.
Absolutely agree!
Very informative video and very well presented. I have seen videos for pcb layout with EMI/EMC consideration all over, but i couldnt find any pcb layout guideline videos for a mixed signal single sided or double sided PC board design with power component switching and analogue measurments, For example household induction cook tops. This might be helpful where cost is a bit constrain in this part of the world. Thank you for the knowledge shared. Really very helpful.
Very nice video - Thank you! One question: In the CM simulation in 1:13:30. Why is there a 150pF capacitance? From which component can I calculate that cap in my circuit?
Hi, great question. It is purely based on experience and estimation, you can use simple capacitance calculation equations as well, if you know the area of the PCB and the height between the PCB and the test Ground plane.
Thank you guys for sharing such a valuable and practical video.
Awesome video! Thanks to both of you!
Very nice video like always Robert, thank you so much!
Should be interesting to see the effect of an improved layout...
it was really really interesting and helpful
thank you and min for sharing useful content and I hope hear more about EMC/EMI from you
Learned alot, Loved this video too. Thanks Robert and Min.
excellent absolut easy to understand , thank you for this presentation
Thanks!
Thank you, this was super useful for me. Very interesting. Thank you Min 😊
Thank you for this session. Please keep enlightening us.
Amazing value shared with this video. Big thanks!
Please bring Min back for the inductor cutout discussion! Information is really lacking in this area :)
Yes, I also have a question about cutouts under inductors and transformers. For example, many pcb designguides from ic manufactures recommend gnd cutouts under ethernet/manchester transformers in all layers.
I think cutouts in the groundplane is interesting when having onboard cm-chokes, isnt that the case?
Great Video I hope you do another design series where you apply the emc theory we learned. My suggestion a flyback powersupply.
A very good and valuable explanation. BTW, why EMC regulations apply to electrical appliance products that go to Europe but not to US ? While US needs the FCC regulation compliance for electronic products, what is the differences between the two regulations?
Most of the time, FCC and CE regulations are the same. It is really a trade issue rather than technical barrier. Each country will have its own rule, but often you can trace it to the EN harmonised standards.