Mark, thanks for showing & explaining your "prototyping issues" for this project. Your lessons-learned can save others a lot of grief, while your corrections look like you'll really enjoy your now-complete DRO installation for years. Virtually everything I designed when working was a one-off, just like most of us make in our (work)shops, so I certainly understand prototyping! Take care.
Thanks Bob. Not everyone understands the nature of one off projects and the remedial work that needs to be done sometimes to make the outcome workable. It's especially evident when you start videoing the process and end up committed to seeing the project through. I sometimes get frustrated and trust me when I say I desperately want to trash the video and just move on to something else but the concepts of "honesty and integrity" keep rearing their ugly heads. 😃 I think the finished install ended up satisfactory but if I were to do it over again it would certainly be different. Regards, Mark
Spot on Mark, hajust bought a cheap over sized i Gaging...didnt know thats what you call them.... and wanted to know if you could down size the bar to suit my quill ...you answered all my queers in a very staight forward and honest instructional video ...if your ever over in the UK i'll get you a pint in..👍👍👍
Thanks. we would like to do another trip to the UK. Probably around the south coast and up to Dover. The "Old Country" has so much to offer. Regards, Mark
I'm a year late on this and only just found your video. I want to thank you for a well thought out and well made video that has given me a whole lot of great information on mounting my own I-Gaging scales that I've had kicking around for many years. Your lessons and work are still helping.
Matty, that's what I thought but initially I was a bit disappointed with how jumpy they were on the TouchDRO. However, the new board I installed on the weekend is almost as stable as a traditional glass scale setup. If you read some of the information on Yuriy's website he goes into a lot of detail about the pro's and con's of each type of scale. Predictably, there is no "best" scale to use. It's just a case of which compromises you want to make. Regards, Mark
Timely video. I just finished installing my TouchDRO this morning. I learned a costly lesson. Don't mess with the scale sensor, they fall apart easily. Oh well, it's a hobby. Thanks for all your hard work. Take care.
Roy, at one point I desperately wanted to slide the sensor off the scale but I held back for fear of seeing the guts spring out of it in some catastrophic failure. Usually I am pretty gung ho about taking stuff apart but for whatever reason I overcame the urge. I hope you get yours back together. Regards, Mark
Douglas. I must say I am a bit of a Husqvarna fan but I agree that Stihl would be an excellent choice as well. I have two Husqvarnas and they have done a lot of work here. I read somewhere that those Ozito saws are designed to last approximately 15 hours of running time which is all that the manufacturers deem to be the life of the saw. Regards, Mark
I feel your pain with the drilling jig, years ago when restoring a 57 Chevy for a customer I had to add a bunch of different than stock moldings which all bolted on, so I made a jig / fixture to mark the holes, but I didn’t take into account the crown of the panels and the offset from the marking pins, not to mention the inconsistency of 1950’s Detroit, when I went to install the moldings (after final paint) all of the holes were 1-2mm off which required all of the holes to be reamed, it was a bad day. But lessons learned. Use the new moldings to mark the holes, and fit them before final paint.
That's the thing about prototyping work, which is 95% of what I do. After you have made all the mistakes you have worked out the right way to do things. I guess you had the benefit of working that out and then getting to do it again with a better process. I rarely get to make something more than once but I guess it's all a learning experience. Regards, Mark
Ha ha. I wish it was just an afternoon. I think that install took place over a week. I really should get a dozen shirts all exactly the same so I could carry off the "look what I did in just a few hours" routine. 😁 Regards, Mark
Thanks. I actually purchased that shirt when I was in Washington DC on the 3rd and 4th of July in 2016. I was on a technology tour with a group of other teachers and students at the time and we had free day to look around the Smithsonian museums. Although the Air and Space Museum was a big hit with me the biggest surprise was the US Postal Museum. Who knew that stamps and the postal service could be so interesting? Regards, Mark
Good video and installation. Well done. Axis summing is a nice feature. I got a smile about having to fit things. So true, especially when castings have irregular surfaces. In our garden the finches, especially Goldfinches, love the sunflower seeds. Dave.
Dave, all the sunflowers went into the wood chipper on the weekend! By the time the cockies had been at them they looked very sad indeed. The thing is that they only eat about 5% of the seeds and the rest end up on the ground. Stupid birds! Regards, Mark
I am glad you brought up the electrical isolation, I was thinking the same thing but instead of just tapping the delrin I am going to add threaded inserts, which are a little over engineering a simple part but I have a few on hand and want to use them. Nice looking shop very clean.
Ahh but you only get to see the clean areas of the shop! It's not all like that all the time. I sort of have to shuffle the mess around out of shot each time I shift the camera - sigh! Threaded inserts sound like a good idea. The delrin is good but if you cross thread a screw it strips out fairly easily. Regards, Mark
Funny you should mention that. I had a guy contact me who said he was developing a system for automating a Bridgeport mill. He has invited me to take a look at the product but I would have to sign a non disclosure agreement first. I have asked him to put me on the mailing list so I can see how it develops. I don't think I would ever fit something like that to my mill but I would like to have a better CNC mill than the little Sieg X3 that I already have. It faints at the sight of steel and even on soft metals it has some severe limitations. Regards, Mark
For mounting to cast iron, I made plates that were fixed with 3x bolts. The mount plate can be levelled using washers/shim-stock under each of the 3 mount points.
I live 10 miles away from that museum and YOU have a better T-shirt from it! And birds that know the place you made for them to sit and do so! What am I doing wrong? Anyway, good tips on getting the holes where they need to be. Always an issue for me. I surely would have drilled the hole where the marker made the circle. Always good stuff on here.
Glenn, you are very fortunate to have ready access to the museum. I only had one day to look around and I had to split my time between the Air and Space Museum, the Natural History Museum and the Postal Museum. By the end of the day I was all museumed out! More bird life coming up in the next video. Regards, Mark
where is the fun if everything was perfect first time , to use an AVE word, fabricobbling is part of the reason we love to prototype (tinker). Great work Mark.
Thanks for sharing! You know birds think Sunflower seeds are candy. We put out mixed bird feed in the winter and they'll throw out all the other seeds and only eat the Sunflower.
Well, I ruined their day on the weekend. All the sunflowers went into the chipper and we are going to plant some Kangaroo paws instead. I should add that Kangaroo paws are native plants with flowers that look like kangaroo paws. 😁 Regards, Mark
Kevin The thing is that you soon work out who has watched the video through to it's conclusion. I try to limit my videos to 30 minutes max and guess what my average view time is? 9 minutes and 11 seconds to be precise. So a lot of people must watch until they spot an alleged screw up and then fire off a suggestion for an alternative plan. In reality I don't really mind but I want the viewers to know that I can see the error of my ways and I have been on a "journey". At least you have watched through to the end. Regards, Mark
Hi Mark, some ideas to make it easier if you prototype a new install. Use neodymium magnets to do an initial mount with 1 each N42 20X3mm countersunk hole magnet for each end of the the scale and 2 each N35 12X3mm countersunk hole for the read head. Using the standard mounts you can get your permanent mount positions with the magnets easily and even do a trial machining run to make sure you have it right in operation. Some Gaffa tape over the magnets will protect the finish on the machine. Due to commercial experience with capacitive gauges these air gap capacitive readers can throw false readings if fluid inters the scale reader interface that will cause issues in some instances as another commenter has said. I use the igaging scales personally on my lathe and have not run into coolant or fluid issues but they could be sensitive as the commenter has said. I would suggest that you seal the ends of the scales that you trimmed so that fluid cannot enter the capacitive strips in the scales. Medium CA glue or a lacquer/nail polish does an excellent job. Thank you for sharing and I look forward to your next adventure. Stay safe.
Thanks for the tips. I hadn't thought about sealing the cut ends of the scale strip. I don't currently use any flood coolant on my mill but I have been given a good quality soluble coolant and the coolant pump in my mill is working and ready to go. I just have to rig up the delivery and drain hoses. I am just in the process of making and fitting a cover for the long X axis scale because it is the most exposed and vulnerable scale on the mill. And I often say that magnets are the engineer's friend. Regards, Mark
Nice work Mark. Fitting glass scales to machines and especially on cast surfaces is an absolute pain, I'd rather stick needles in my eye balls. The i-gauge scales look like a great alternative to the hassle and allows a bit of give in the fit-up. Unfortunately my OCD would take a dive with the flickering numbers and I would not be able to make a start on anything if the locations we're not perfect LOL. Great video on the setup, if the number "hunting" could be stabilized I'd be in when I setup the Victoria Mill. Cam
Cam, I agree that the flickering numbers are a real pain but you soon get used to it. I find that the Sino DRO and glass scales fitted to my lathe still flicker but I take the view that if it is flickering it means that you are right on the threshold between two divisions. I had to do a lot of soul searching before taking the decision to go with the iGaging scales and up until a few months ago I had no idea that TouchDRO existed. I am planning a follow up video which analyses the difference in cost between an off the shelf Chinese DRO and glass scales and the TouchDRO system and as it turns out there is almost no cost differential. This is even more important if you want to have Z axis summing. The run of the mill Chinese LCD displays don't do this and that means getting something like a Heidenhain or a Newall system which would be very expensive. From what I understand, electrically isolating the scales from the body of the machine eliminates the random number excursions but it doesn't fully eliminate the flickering between digits. Regards, Mark
@@Preso58 Just a speculation... actualy... more hit in the dark... :) Maybe you can try to put some flex metal tubing (flex hose) on the cables that are going from scales to touchdro? This could lower the interference , and maybe help a bit with that flickering. And of course, it will add mechanical protection to the fragile cables.
Mark, This must be the worlds most tricked out B port, almost all the bells and whistles. Just one piece of bling missing which would make a great video, a cast bottle opener. How about it Mark, great vid opportunity or what ? John
Could be! I am getting ready to make a cast speed handle for the vice. My Kurt style vice handle is so long it clashes with the Y axis handle on the saddle and if you drop it on your foot you will be doing the soft shoe shuffle all day! Regards, Mark
I'm curious if you're still using this and happy with it. I picked one up after first watching this video and the response time in the reader is way slower than what I'm used to with Mitutoyo calipers and the Fagor DRO on my mill. The LCD is also pretty dark and will need to mounted at an angle so it's lit from above. (BTW, I meant to post this on your video installing it on the quill.)
Tim, I am still using TouchDRO and I am very happy with it especially since Yuriy has updated the app and included some new features. I did however replace all the iGaging scales with glass scales. The capacitive scales were suffering from electrical interference from either the mill motor, the contactors or maybe from the rotary phase converter. I would notice that very occasionally, one or more scales would misreport their position. It got to the point where I was having to back up the DRO with the micrometer dials on the mill and then I realised that I might as well just use the dials. The glass scales are bigger and bulkier and are more susceptible to chips and coolant but being mostly optical devices they are less prone to power spikes and earth loops. I bought all new 5 micron Sino scales and since fitting them the system now works great, I have a video coming out soon where I discuss my reasons for changing to glass scales and also some new features of TouchDRO. Regards, Mark
@@Preso58 thank you for replying. I love what you’re doing and appreciate you taking the time to document and share here! I’ve learned some great new tricks from you!
Hello Mark, I'm wondering how your recently fitted iGaging scale is working out with the DRO. I have a BridgePort Mill I'm intending to fit a DRO XYZ readouts, and using iGaging or glass scales.
If you have the budget I would use glass scales. The iGaging capacitive scales are much easier to fit but they can be difficult to grab the last hundredth of a millimetre. I still like the TouchDRO app though. I like the graphical interface and there are lots of features and tools available at the touch of the screen. Overall I am still happy with the degree of accuracy that I can get out of my system. I have done a number of hole patterns that fitted together perfectly and once you understand the quirks of the system it is a capable alternative to the more expensive brand name systems. Regards, Mark
I think I would have made the slots a bit wider to have some vertical adjustment as well. Might have been harder to get everything lined up perfectly, but you only have to do it once!
I was considering doing that too after it looked like I wasn't going to get it to assemble but just leaving everything a bit loose and reassembling it seemed to do the trick. Regards, Mark
Bill, I will be honest here and say that I have just ordered a set of Sino Glass scales to replace the iGaging capacitive scales on the Bridgeport. The scales themselves are still functioning as well as they did when I purchased them. There is no sign of wear or damage from swarf or coolant. The issue I have with them is that they sometimes reset themselves to random reported positions when I start or stop the main spindle motor on the mill. If I missed the error it would lead to scrapped parts. I have worked closely with Yuriy to try to resolve the problem and after insulating the mounting hardware from the body of the mill using polymer mounting hardware the problem was almost eliminated. I still cannot be sure if it is entirely fixed but at the end of the day, I couldn't trust the scales. The TouchDRO bluetooth adapter is not the problem, it is caused by induced electrical interference in the scales themselves. It is possible that I just have noisy switches and contactors in my mill. I also tried using a phone battery bank to rule out the switching power supply I was using to run the scales. I can start and stop the spindle motor 20 times in a row and the display will be rock steady and then, sometimes, out of the corner of my eye I will notice some flicker on the display and right at that time you start to second guess the position shown. I sent a TouchDRO bluetooth adapter to another UA-camr who fitted it to his Cincinnati mill with glass scales and he has reported that it functions perfectly. For me, it means a lot of extra work to fit the glass scales and of course, they need to be trammed in and all new mounting hardware will need to be made. The good thing about the iGaging scales is how easy it is to fit them and they are relatively immune to swarf and oil. I will most likely do a follow up video at some point when I get the glass scales installed. I feel it's important to be up front about this. In the meantime, Yuriy has rolled out an update on the TouchDRO app and there are some excellent improvements and new features which will help a great deal. So, to answer your question, I think the iGaging scales are robust and easy to fit and with the improvements to the firmware in the bluetooth adapter they are very stable in the way they show the digital display, however they have given me some grief in terms of being able to eliminate the resetting issue. I will keep the iGaging scales to use on another machine. That will at least allow me to see if it's the scales that are the problem or the mill electrical system. Regards, Mark
Recently purchased one of those Yuri boards and it's a lot better then those individual scales and batteries. If you have any real amount of cutting to do go get a good saw, Stihl or Husky, I've got a cheapy and a Stihl and there's a difference. Nice video!
Michael, I have two petrol Husqvarnas which are reliable and repairable. The older one which I bought second hand from a dealer has been back twice for maintenance and repair and is still going. That little Ozito was given to me by my son when he moved to New Zealand and he told me it just needed "adjusting". It actually needs throwing in the bin. Regards, Mark
Preso mate could you tell those sulphur crested destructive creatures to stay up North this year as they decimate my pears, walnuts and figs every year! Good job, is it normal to have the Z axis decreasing as you go down, I know mathematically that is correct but I have mine set to it is a positive cut when moving down. Just saying...
Michael, The generally accepted rule is that Z negative is cutting into your work so raising the knee increases the depth of cut thus going "more negative". Regards, Mark
What is your experience with repeatability of those scales? Mine could be off by .5-.8 mm after a few movements of the table. Because if that I gave up and bought glass scales.
The scales I fitted seem to have repeatable accuracy. I compared the reading on the TouchDRO screen with the dials on the mill as I advanced the dial 5mm at a time. After something like 100mm of movement I was getting a discrepancy of about .02mm which is less than a thou. Now it could be the scale but I suspect it is actually the lead screw wear in the centre of it's travel. I have had issues with the scale on the quill not returning to zero when I retract it but again, I think it's a mechanical issue. 0.5 to 0.8 seems like a lot though. I know that the TouchDRO and Yuriy's Toys website have a lot of information on different types of scales and the pros and cons of each type. Glass scales are definitely more accurate and repeatable but they are a pain to set up. Having said that, I have glass scales on my lathe and they have been reliable and trouble free. The iGaging type capacitive scales do get upset if there is any electrical interference or if there is a ground loop in your power supply. Yuriy is actually quite helpful and approachable if you have an issue with scales. Maybe he could suggest a remedy? Regards, Mark
@@Preso58 I first noticed the problem with my old scales when drilling mounting holes for a motor and one or two of the bolts would not quite fit. I tested my iGaging scales with a dial indicator moving the table various distances and returning to indicator zero point. I trust the dial indicator and the DRO display would show a variance that seemed random ( but within that 0.5-0.8mm range). Your comment about isolating the scales from the machine is interesting. I still have those scales so I will test them with the indicator on the bench just for fun. The glass scales were a bit of challenge to mount but there is no going back. The 1 micron resolution even shows how much the table moves when I lock the gibs. Not that it mattes for what I do, but it is nice to know.
I put stainless braid over the cables to protect them from chips and rubbing after cutting a cable on my first lathe......also going on my mill this week.....
I badly wanted to fit that stainless steel braid but it's hard to get here in the antipodes. I ended up using some of that split corrugated plastic conduit. I could bundle three of the wires into one piece of conduit. Regards, Mark
Do you have any inside info on if these are available in 48 inch or longer scales for longer projects? The iGaging site doesn't list them.... EDIT: oh wait, they have a 52 inch for a table saw...
The longest iGaging scale I can get from the Australian suppliers is 36" but in theory they can be made in any length. Interestingly, if you look at the accuracy of the scales, the longer they are the lower the claimed accuracy. I have had one viewer suggest that the longer scales would be more prone to error due to thermal expansion. Glass scales have a lower rate of thermal expansion but the aluminium strip that the iGaging scales are made of have a coefficient of expansion four times that of glass. I guess it's only a problem if you get wild temperature swings in your workshop. Regards, Mark
Hi Mark. Why you made this spacers with M6 stud and M5 screw? Why not just M5 screw that go all the way thru it? There are no forces, applied on that part so it do not need to be stronger, and weekest link is that M5 anyway. BTW Initial observation about scale lenght remind me to: I shortened this thing three times, and it's still too short :)
The advice I was given was to try to electrically isolate the scale from the body of the milling machine so I wanted to use two separate fasteners that didn't touch in the middle. It's also why I used the acrylic to make the bracket that attached the read head to the knee of the mill. The capacitive scales that I use can suffer from electrical interference from VFD's and ground loops in the power supply. Regards, Mark
I had a similar problem with my Touch DRO install, with the values jumping around and misbehaving on one of the axis. It turned out that I'd refitted the aluminium slide the wrong way around. I didn't realise at the time that once removed from the scale, it needs to slid back in the same way.
Charlie, I was very reluctant to take the reader off the scale. I sort of worried that the guts would fall out of it or it wouldn't go back together again. I believe that the random numbers are to do with electrical interference or ground loops in the power supply. Yuriy said that the latest firmware is capable of recognising the error and recovering from it. So far I haven't found it to be a real problem. Regards, Mark
Could have made a wedge shaped spacer to go between the delrin and the mill body face. Or a steel drill guide that is the same height and shape as the delrin spacer, this would carry error out to the same location (x,y,z). If you really wanted to you could have also made a second steel spacer for tapping.
Ian, there are lots of ways that the job could have been done better than what I did but I think the easiest solution is just to cut the mounting slots at right angles to each other. I was only short by about 1.5mm but I had nowhere to go with the way I had cut the scale. Probably the standoffs didn't need to be as long as they were either. I went with the longer style because I didn't want the screws to touch internally and form an electrical connection to the mill. Regards, Mark
@@Preso58 naw its all good, please understand that this wasn't criticism at all, was just thinking out loud and besides, it's already done. Hell there are a hundred ways to skin a cat... hmm why does the expression use a cat as an animal to skin? Is or has cat skinning ever been popular? I suppose larger cats were turned into rugs or used for clothing at some point and time...
@@Preso58 oh for sure. Not low tech at all. There is complimentary pattern of copper on the head, and the two together form a sort of electronic vernier scale of capacitors. The real magic is in the firmware that runs on a controller inside the head that electrically excites the copper and measures the resultant capacitance and converts that to a position. It's actually higher tech/complexity than a glass scale, but also less accurate.
Jerry, one of the good things about the iGaging scales is that they are fairly immune from the effects of twist and bow. The aluminium extrusion is only 20mm wide and about 4mm thick so it can flex a fair bit without binding depending on the length of the scale. I have yet to find a case where the scale has failed due to misalignment and I am none too careful about the exact tramming of the scale body. But if you wanted to anchor the ends of the scale down hard then two anchor points would do the job. In practice it may be overkill but then again I am prone to do that sometimes. 😁 Regards, Preso
Two screws will twist it even more. The "base" (column) have twisted surface, so if you firmly attach spacers to it, the scales have no choice but to twist accordingly. You can ider shim, or do some trick with epoxy or file spacers in place to get surfaces in one plane, or some simmilar trick...
Birds are cool.. They’re doing the same thing you would do if you were a bird,,,,trying to survive,,because believe it or not every day in that birds life is a struggle.. I myself go through $200 worth of birdseed a month feeding the birds in my area along with the squirrels and the rabbits that show up here and there.. you seem to live in a nice peaceful area..
Tell me about it! I can get that stinking thing to run at full throttle but it won't idle or start without full choke. Batteries are starting to look very attractive. Regards, Mark
Your method is just fine with me. There are different ways to do certain install problems. The best is what works for you. Like your reasoning. Thanks for the look.
Thanks for the video Mark. My father always said " A man who has never made a mistake, has never made anything." Keep safe and stay well.
Well said!
Regards,
Mark
Mark, thanks for showing & explaining your "prototyping issues" for this project. Your lessons-learned can save others a lot of grief, while your corrections look like you'll really enjoy your now-complete DRO installation for years. Virtually everything I designed when working was a one-off, just like most of us make in our (work)shops, so I certainly understand prototyping! Take care.
Thanks Bob. Not everyone understands the nature of one off projects and the remedial work that needs to be done sometimes to make the outcome workable. It's especially evident when you start videoing the process and end up committed to seeing the project through. I sometimes get frustrated and trust me when I say I desperately want to trash the video and just move on to something else but the concepts of "honesty and integrity" keep rearing their ugly heads. 😃 I think the finished install ended up satisfactory but if I were to do it over again it would certainly be different.
Regards,
Mark
Spot on Mark, hajust bought a cheap over sized i Gaging...didnt know thats what you call them.... and wanted to know if you could down size the bar to suit my quill ...you answered all my queers in a very staight forward and honest instructional video ...if your ever over in the UK i'll get you a pint in..👍👍👍
Thanks. we would like to do another trip to the UK. Probably around the south coast and up to Dover. The "Old Country" has so much to offer.
Regards,
Mark
I'm a year late on this and only just found your video. I want to thank you for a well thought out and well made video that has given me a whole lot of great information on mounting my own I-Gaging scales that I've had kicking around for many years. Your lessons and work are still helping.
Gday, setting up this type of scale is much easier the glass scale setup from what I’ve seen on UA-cam, thanks for sharing mark, cheers
Matty, that's what I thought but initially I was a bit disappointed with how jumpy they were on the TouchDRO. However, the new board I installed on the weekend is almost as stable as a traditional glass scale setup. If you read some of the information on Yuriy's website he goes into a lot of detail about the pro's and con's of each type of scale. Predictably, there is no "best" scale to use. It's just a case of which compromises you want to make.
Regards,
Mark
Timely video. I just finished installing my TouchDRO this morning. I learned a costly lesson. Don't mess with the scale sensor, they fall apart easily. Oh well, it's a hobby. Thanks for all your hard work. Take care.
Roy, at one point I desperately wanted to slide the sensor off the scale but I held back for fear of seeing the guts spring out of it in some catastrophic failure. Usually I am pretty gung ho about taking stuff apart but for whatever reason I overcame the urge. I hope you get yours back together.
Regards,
Mark
I had already learnt the lesson of buying a cheap chainsaw. Get a Stihl Mark. Got mine from that Stihl store in Beerwah. Never regretted it.
Douglas. I must say I am a bit of a Husqvarna fan but I agree that Stihl would be an excellent choice as well. I have two Husqvarnas and they have done a lot of work here. I read somewhere that those Ozito saws are designed to last approximately 15 hours of running time which is all that the manufacturers deem to be the life of the saw.
Regards,
Mark
I feel your pain with the drilling jig, years ago when restoring a 57 Chevy for a customer I had to add a bunch of different than stock moldings which all bolted on, so I made a jig / fixture to mark the holes, but I didn’t take into account the crown of the panels and the offset from the marking pins, not to mention the inconsistency of 1950’s Detroit, when I went to install the moldings (after final paint) all of the holes were 1-2mm off which required all of the holes to be reamed, it was a bad day. But lessons learned. Use the new moldings to mark the holes, and fit them before final paint.
That's the thing about prototyping work, which is 95% of what I do. After you have made all the mistakes you have worked out the right way to do things. I guess you had the benefit of working that out and then getting to do it again with a better process. I rarely get to make something more than once but I guess it's all a learning experience.
Regards,
Mark
Thanks Mark for sharing your afternoon in the shop. 👍👍😎👍👍. Super nice result.
Ha ha. I wish it was just an afternoon. I think that install took place over a week. I really should get a dozen shirts all exactly the same so I could carry off the "look what I did in just a few hours" routine. 😁
Regards,
Mark
Your mill sure is dialed in now. Love that T-shirt.
Thanks. I actually purchased that shirt when I was in Washington DC on the 3rd and 4th of July in 2016. I was on a technology tour with a group of other teachers and students at the time and we had free day to look around the Smithsonian museums. Although the Air and Space Museum was a big hit with me the biggest surprise was the US Postal Museum. Who knew that stamps and the postal service could be so interesting?
Regards,
Mark
Your mill looks like a piece of furniture! It's absolutely beautiful. Thanks for the insight on the new capacitive feed DRO's.
Nicely done. Thanks for showing us the ropes. I hope I will get good marks for learning my lessons well. Thanks for sharing Mr. P.
Ha ha, thanks Yves.
Regards,
Mark
Good video and installation. Well done.
Axis summing is a nice feature.
I got a smile about having to fit things. So true, especially when castings have irregular surfaces.
In our garden the finches, especially Goldfinches, love the sunflower seeds.
Dave.
Dave, all the sunflowers went into the wood chipper on the weekend! By the time the cockies had been at them they looked very sad indeed. The thing is that they only eat about 5% of the seeds and the rest end up on the ground. Stupid birds!
Regards,
Mark
Great video Mark. Nothing is like having an accurate measurement.
Hi Mark,
Good video... As an old Fitter Turner I spent a lot of time fitting as my turning was not always good - lol
Take care
Paul,,
The correct method is the one that works for you and your skill set.
Thanks for sharing,
Cheers
I am glad you brought up the electrical isolation, I was thinking the same thing but instead of just tapping the delrin I am going to add threaded inserts, which are a little over engineering a simple part but I have a few on hand and want to use them. Nice looking shop very clean.
Ahh but you only get to see the clean areas of the shop! It's not all like that all the time. I sort of have to shuffle the mess around out of shot each time I shift the camera - sigh! Threaded inserts sound like a good idea. The delrin is good but if you cross thread a screw it strips out fairly easily.
Regards,
Mark
Outstanding installation Mark...Next project- X-Y-Z servos, yea! Cheers from West Virginia.
Funny you should mention that. I had a guy contact me who said he was developing a system for automating a Bridgeport mill. He has invited me to take a look at the product but I would have to sign a non disclosure agreement first. I have asked him to put me on the mailing list so I can see how it develops. I don't think I would ever fit something like that to my mill but I would like to have a better CNC mill than the little Sieg X3 that I already have. It faints at the sight of steel and even on soft metals it has some severe limitations.
Regards,
Mark
Thanks Mark for sharing, very handy video too watch. Some good insulation tips for they scales.
For mounting to cast iron, I made plates that were fixed with 3x bolts. The mount plate can be levelled using washers/shim-stock under each of the 3 mount points.
I live 10 miles away from that museum and YOU have a better T-shirt from it! And birds that know the place you made for them to sit and do so! What am I doing wrong?
Anyway, good tips on getting the holes where they need to be. Always an issue for me. I surely would have drilled the hole where the marker made the circle. Always good stuff on here.
Glenn, you are very fortunate to have ready access to the museum. I only had one day to look around and I had to split my time between the Air and Space Museum, the Natural History Museum and the Postal Museum. By the end of the day I was all museumed out! More bird life coming up in the next video.
Regards,
Mark
Great video, love the calm precision and methodical process. Awesome workmanship regardless of how you got there. Mahalo for sharing! : )
where is the fun if everything was perfect first time , to use an AVE word, fabricobbling is part of the reason we love to prototype (tinker). Great work Mark.
You have a new subscriber today.
Thanks for sharing! You know birds think Sunflower seeds are candy. We put out mixed bird feed in the winter and they'll throw out all the other seeds and only eat the Sunflower.
Well, I ruined their day on the weekend. All the sunflowers went into the chipper and we are going to plant some Kangaroo paws instead. I should add that Kangaroo paws are native plants with flowers that look like kangaroo paws. 😁
Regards,
Mark
Nice job Mark , I liked the template idea .
Nice job Preso. You don't have to answer to anyone in the comments you do it your way and if it works then whats wrong!. Regards Kevin
Kevin
The thing is that you soon work out who has watched the video through to it's conclusion. I try to limit my videos to 30 minutes max and guess what my average view time is? 9 minutes and 11 seconds to be precise. So a lot of people must watch until they spot an alleged screw up and then fire off a suggestion for an alternative plan. In reality I don't really mind but I want the viewers to know that I can see the error of my ways and I have been on a "journey". At least you have watched through to the end.
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark, some ideas to make it easier if you prototype a new install.
Use neodymium magnets to do an initial mount with 1 each N42 20X3mm countersunk hole magnet for each end of the the scale and 2 each N35 12X3mm countersunk hole for the read head.
Using the standard mounts you can get your permanent mount positions with the magnets easily and even do a trial machining run to make sure you have it right in operation.
Some Gaffa tape over the magnets will protect the finish on the machine.
Due to commercial experience with capacitive gauges these air gap capacitive readers can throw false readings if fluid inters the scale reader interface that will cause issues in some instances as another commenter has said.
I use the igaging scales personally on my lathe and have not run into coolant or fluid issues but they could be sensitive as the commenter has said.
I would suggest that you seal the ends of the scales that you trimmed so that fluid cannot enter the capacitive strips in the scales.
Medium CA glue or a lacquer/nail polish does an excellent job.
Thank you for sharing and I look forward to your next adventure.
Stay safe.
Thanks for the tips. I hadn't thought about sealing the cut ends of the scale strip. I don't currently use any flood coolant on my mill but I have been given a good quality soluble coolant and the coolant pump in my mill is working and ready to go. I just have to rig up the delivery and drain hoses. I am just in the process of making and fitting a cover for the long X axis scale because it is the most exposed and vulnerable scale on the mill. And I often say that magnets are the engineer's friend.
Regards,
Mark
Good info I going to use mine on a Hammer F-3 shaper.
Great tips there Mark. I would probably have done it exactly the same way you did.
Thanks for sharing mate great job 👍🇦🇺
Nice work Mark. Fitting glass scales to machines and especially on cast surfaces is an absolute pain, I'd rather stick needles in my eye balls. The i-gauge scales look like a great alternative to the hassle and allows a bit of give in the fit-up. Unfortunately my OCD would take a dive with the flickering numbers and I would not be able to make a start on anything if the locations we're not perfect LOL. Great video on the setup, if the number "hunting" could be stabilized I'd be in when I setup the Victoria Mill.
Cam
Cam, I agree that the flickering numbers are a real pain but you soon get used to it. I find that the Sino DRO and glass scales fitted to my lathe still flicker but I take the view that if it is flickering it means that you are right on the threshold between two divisions. I had to do a lot of soul searching before taking the decision to go with the iGaging scales and up until a few months ago I had no idea that TouchDRO existed. I am planning a follow up video which analyses the difference in cost between an off the shelf Chinese DRO and glass scales and the TouchDRO system and as it turns out there is almost no cost differential. This is even more important if you want to have Z axis summing. The run of the mill Chinese LCD displays don't do this and that means getting something like a Heidenhain or a Newall system which would be very expensive. From what I understand, electrically isolating the scales from the body of the machine eliminates the random number excursions but it doesn't fully eliminate the flickering between digits.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Just a speculation... actualy... more hit in the dark... :)
Maybe you can try to put some flex metal tubing (flex hose) on the cables that are going from scales to touchdro?
This could lower the interference , and maybe help a bit with that flickering.
And of course, it will add mechanical protection to the fragile cables.
Mark,
This must be the worlds most tricked out B port, almost all the bells and whistles. Just one piece of bling missing which would make a great video, a cast bottle opener. How about it Mark, great vid opportunity or what ?
John
Could be! I am getting ready to make a cast speed handle for the vice. My Kurt style vice handle is so long it clashes with the Y axis handle on the saddle and if you drop it on your foot you will be doing the soft shoe shuffle all day!
Regards,
Mark
I'm curious if you're still using this and happy with it. I picked one up after first watching this video and the response time in the reader is way slower than what I'm used to with Mitutoyo calipers and the Fagor DRO on my mill. The LCD is also pretty dark and will need to mounted at an angle so it's lit from above. (BTW, I meant to post this on your video installing it on the quill.)
Tim, I am still using TouchDRO and I am very happy with it especially since Yuriy has updated the app and included some new features. I did however replace all the iGaging scales with glass scales. The capacitive scales were suffering from electrical interference from either the mill motor, the contactors or maybe from the rotary phase converter. I would notice that very occasionally, one or more scales would misreport their position. It got to the point where I was having to back up the DRO with the micrometer dials on the mill and then I realised that I might as well just use the dials. The glass scales are bigger and bulkier and are more susceptible to chips and coolant but being mostly optical devices they are less prone to power spikes and earth loops. I bought all new 5 micron Sino scales and since fitting them the system now works great, I have a video coming out soon where I discuss my reasons for changing to glass scales and also some new features of TouchDRO.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 thank you for replying. I love what you’re doing and appreciate you taking the time to document and share here! I’ve learned some great new tricks from you!
very good, thanks for sharing
Hello Mark, I'm wondering how your recently fitted iGaging scale is working out with the DRO. I have a BridgePort Mill I'm intending to fit a DRO XYZ readouts, and using iGaging or glass scales.
If you have the budget I would use glass scales. The iGaging capacitive scales are much easier to fit but they can be difficult to grab the last hundredth of a millimetre. I still like the TouchDRO app though. I like the graphical interface and there are lots of features and tools available at the touch of the screen. Overall I am still happy with the degree of accuracy that I can get out of my system. I have done a number of hole patterns that fitted together perfectly and once you understand the quirks of the system it is a capable alternative to the more expensive brand name systems.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Thank you Mark for your informed reply, I will let you know how things proceed.
NICE JOB MARK, AS ALLWAYS. REGARDS R.
I think I would have made the slots a bit wider to have some vertical adjustment as well. Might have been harder to get everything lined up perfectly, but you only have to do it once!
I was considering doing that too after it looked like I wasn't going to get it to assemble but just leaving everything a bit loose and reassembling it seemed to do the trick.
Regards,
Mark
As always, loved the vid. Now you've had a couple of years with the iGaging Scale, any comment on how robust they are?
Bill, I will be honest here and say that I have just ordered a set of Sino Glass scales to replace the iGaging capacitive scales on the Bridgeport. The scales themselves are still functioning as well as they did when I purchased them. There is no sign of wear or damage from swarf or coolant. The issue I have with them is that they sometimes reset themselves to random reported positions when I start or stop the main spindle motor on the mill. If I missed the error it would lead to scrapped parts. I have worked closely with Yuriy to try to resolve the problem and after insulating the mounting hardware from the body of the mill using polymer mounting hardware the problem was almost eliminated. I still cannot be sure if it is entirely fixed but at the end of the day, I couldn't trust the scales. The TouchDRO bluetooth adapter is not the problem, it is caused by induced electrical interference in the scales themselves. It is possible that I just have noisy switches and contactors in my mill. I also tried using a phone battery bank to rule out the switching power supply I was using to run the scales. I can start and stop the spindle motor 20 times in a row and the display will be rock steady and then, sometimes, out of the corner of my eye I will notice some flicker on the display and right at that time you start to second guess the position shown. I sent a TouchDRO bluetooth adapter to another UA-camr who fitted it to his Cincinnati mill with glass scales and he has reported that it functions perfectly. For me, it means a lot of extra work to fit the glass scales and of course, they need to be trammed in and all new mounting hardware will need to be made. The good thing about the iGaging scales is how easy it is to fit them and they are relatively immune to swarf and oil. I will most likely do a follow up video at some point when I get the glass scales installed. I feel it's important to be up front about this. In the meantime, Yuriy has rolled out an update on the TouchDRO app and there are some excellent improvements and new features which will help a great deal. So, to answer your question, I think the iGaging scales are robust and easy to fit and with the improvements to the firmware in the bluetooth adapter they are very stable in the way they show the digital display, however they have given me some grief in terms of being able to eliminate the resetting issue. I will keep the iGaging scales to use on another machine. That will at least allow me to see if it's the scales that are the problem or the mill electrical system.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Yeah, nah...if you can't trust them you have to leave them...actually applies to many things! 🙂
Recently purchased one of those Yuri boards and it's a lot better then those individual scales and batteries. If you have any real amount of cutting to do go get a good saw, Stihl or Husky, I've got a cheapy and a Stihl and there's a difference. Nice video!
Michael, I have two petrol Husqvarnas which are reliable and repairable. The older one which I bought second hand from a dealer has been back twice for maintenance and repair and is still going. That little Ozito was given to me by my son when he moved to New Zealand and he told me it just needed "adjusting". It actually needs throwing in the bin.
Regards,
Mark
Preso mate could you tell those sulphur crested destructive creatures to stay up North this year as they decimate my pears, walnuts and figs every year! Good job, is it normal to have the Z axis decreasing as you go down, I know mathematically that is correct but I have mine set to it is a positive cut when moving down. Just saying...
Michael,
The generally accepted rule is that Z negative is cutting into your work so raising the knee increases the depth of cut thus going "more negative".
Regards,
Mark
What is your experience with repeatability of those scales?
Mine could be off by .5-.8 mm after a few movements of the table.
Because if that I gave up and bought glass scales.
The scales I fitted seem to have repeatable accuracy. I compared the reading on the TouchDRO screen with the dials on the mill as I advanced the dial 5mm at a time. After something like 100mm of movement I was getting a discrepancy of about .02mm which is less than a thou. Now it could be the scale but I suspect it is actually the lead screw wear in the centre of it's travel. I have had issues with the scale on the quill not returning to zero when I retract it but again, I think it's a mechanical issue. 0.5 to 0.8 seems like a lot though. I know that the TouchDRO and Yuriy's Toys website have a lot of information on different types of scales and the pros and cons of each type. Glass scales are definitely more accurate and repeatable but they are a pain to set up. Having said that, I have glass scales on my lathe and they have been reliable and trouble free. The iGaging type capacitive scales do get upset if there is any electrical interference or if there is a ground loop in your power supply. Yuriy is actually quite helpful and approachable if you have an issue with scales. Maybe he could suggest a remedy?
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58
I first noticed the problem with my old scales when drilling mounting holes for a motor and one or two of the bolts would not quite fit. I tested my iGaging scales with a dial indicator moving the table various distances and returning to indicator zero point. I trust the dial indicator and the DRO display would show a variance that seemed random ( but within that 0.5-0.8mm range).
Your comment about isolating the scales from the machine is interesting. I still have those scales so I will test them with the indicator on the bench just for fun.
The glass scales were a bit of challenge to mount but there is no going back. The 1 micron resolution even shows how much the table moves when I lock the gibs. Not that it mattes for what I do, but it is nice to know.
I put stainless braid over the cables to protect them from chips and rubbing after cutting a cable on my first lathe......also going on my mill this week.....
I badly wanted to fit that stainless steel braid but it's hard to get here in the antipodes. I ended up using some of that split corrugated plastic conduit. I could bundle three of the wires into one piece of conduit.
Regards,
Mark
Do you have any inside info on if these are available in 48 inch or longer scales for longer projects? The iGaging site doesn't list them.... EDIT: oh wait, they have a 52 inch for a table saw...
The longest iGaging scale I can get from the Australian suppliers is 36" but in theory they can be made in any length. Interestingly, if you look at the accuracy of the scales, the longer they are the lower the claimed accuracy. I have had one viewer suggest that the longer scales would be more prone to error due to thermal expansion. Glass scales have a lower rate of thermal expansion but the aluminium strip that the iGaging scales are made of have a coefficient of expansion four times that of glass. I guess it's only a problem if you get wild temperature swings in your workshop.
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark.
Why you made this spacers with M6 stud and M5 screw?
Why not just M5 screw that go all the way thru it?
There are no forces, applied on that part so it do not need to be stronger, and weekest link is that M5 anyway.
BTW
Initial observation about scale lenght remind me to:
I shortened this thing three times, and it's still too short :)
The advice I was given was to try to electrically isolate the scale from the body of the milling machine so I wanted to use two separate fasteners that didn't touch in the middle. It's also why I used the acrylic to make the bracket that attached the read head to the knee of the mill. The capacitive scales that I use can suffer from electrical interference from VFD's and ground loops in the power supply.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Oh... I forget this...
I had a similar problem with my Touch DRO install, with the values jumping around and misbehaving on one of the axis. It turned out that I'd refitted the aluminium slide the wrong way around. I didn't realise at the time that once removed from the scale, it needs to slid back in the same way.
Charlie, I was very reluctant to take the reader off the scale. I sort of worried that the guts would fall out of it or it wouldn't go back together again. I believe that the random numbers are to do with electrical interference or ground loops in the power supply. Yuriy said that the latest firmware is capable of recognising the error and recovering from it. So far I haven't found it to be a real problem.
Regards,
Mark
where did you buy the the set of jaws for your bench vise?
I got those from Hare and Forbes here in Australia. www.machineryhouse.com.au/V0539
Could have made a wedge shaped spacer to go between the delrin and the mill body face. Or a steel drill guide that is the same height and shape as the delrin spacer, this would carry error out to the same location (x,y,z). If you really wanted to you could have also made a second steel spacer for tapping.
Ian, there are lots of ways that the job could have been done better than what I did but I think the easiest solution is just to cut the mounting slots at right angles to each other. I was only short by about 1.5mm but I had nowhere to go with the way I had cut the scale. Probably the standoffs didn't need to be as long as they were either. I went with the longer style because I didn't want the screws to touch internally and form an electrical connection to the mill.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 naw its all good, please understand that this wasn't criticism at all, was just thinking out loud and besides, it's already done. Hell there are a hundred ways to skin a cat... hmm why does the expression use a cat as an animal to skin? Is or has cat skinning ever been popular? I suppose larger cats were turned into rugs or used for clothing at some point and time...
The sensor strip is actually just FR4 PCB material, with a repeating copper pattern on it covered with a black solder mask.
Yes, it seems pretty low tech but the magic must be in the read head itself.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 oh for sure. Not low tech at all. There is complimentary pattern of copper on the head, and the two together form a sort of electronic vernier scale of capacitors. The real magic is in the firmware that runs on a controller inside the head that electrically excites the copper and measures the resultant capacitance and converts that to a position. It's actually higher tech/complexity than a glass scale, but also less accurate.
Nice Mark. Do you want to sell the piece of scale you have left over? I need an 18" chunk.
If you want it, it's yours.
I am not sure if I have that much though. I'll check tomorrow.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Ok. I'll check exactly the length I need.
Trail and aer is how we learn how to do things.
There are very few parts available for repair of Chinese gas engine powered products in the USA.
I will stick to my two Husqvarnas and get a battery operated saw for the small stuff. The Ozito will end up in landfill unfortunately.
Regards,
Mark
To to be safe to keep it from twisting I would have put two screws in every mounting point to resist twisting action
Jerry, one of the good things about the iGaging scales is that they are fairly immune from the effects of twist and bow. The aluminium extrusion is only 20mm wide and about 4mm thick so it can flex a fair bit without binding depending on the length of the scale. I have yet to find a case where the scale has failed due to misalignment and I am none too careful about the exact tramming of the scale body. But if you wanted to anchor the ends of the scale down hard then two anchor points would do the job. In practice it may be overkill but then again I am prone to do that sometimes. 😁
Regards,
Preso
Two screws will twist it even more.
The "base" (column) have twisted surface, so if you firmly attach spacers to it, the scales have no choice but to twist accordingly.
You can ider shim, or do some trick with epoxy or file spacers in place to get surfaces in one plane, or some simmilar trick...
Birds are cool..
They’re doing the same thing you would do if you were a bird,,,,trying to survive,,because believe it or not every day in that birds life is a struggle..
I myself go through $200 worth of birdseed a month feeding the birds in my area along with the squirrels and the rabbits that show up here and there.. you seem to live in a nice peaceful area..
A lot of UA-camrs keep telling me that Bob's my uncle. But my uncle was Vladimir. Do you guys know something I don't know?
Drilled M6 and taped M6 🤔 I don’t think your calculations are correct there mate
Yes, senior moment I'm afraid. I meant to say "drilled for M6"
Regards,
Mark
Makita battery powered chain saw... Never use another petrol engine power one again.
Tell me about it! I can get that stinking thing to run at full throttle but it won't idle or start without full choke. Batteries are starting to look very attractive.
Regards,
Mark
Your method is just fine with me. There are different ways to do certain install problems. The best is what works for you. Like your reasoning. Thanks for the look.