Belgium Divided
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- Опубліковано 27 кві 2008
- April 2008
The nation's politicians are bickering over an issue that's plagued the country since its creation in 1830: how do you reconcile the French speaking Walloons in the south and the Dutch speaking Flemish in the north? How can you have national co-operation when the people who make up the nation don't share a common language let alone read the same newspapers, watch the same television or vote for the same politicians?
Asked "What is Belgium actually for?" those on the Flemish far right have a devastating answer. "Belgium in my opinion is an occupier, because basically it was created to let the French culture dominate the Dutch culture, so in my opinion it's an occupier." That's the opinion of the new leader of the Flemish far-right, Bruno Valkeniers.
The conflict even intrudes into the celebrity show biz media.
Minutes after being crowned Miss Belgium, Alizee Poulicek, a French speaker, stepped out of the pages of a fashion magazine and into the fire of the separatist debate. Asked an innocuous question in Flemish (Dutch), she was unable to reply. Booed by the crowd she was pilloried by the Dutch language press as being representative of the arrogance displayed by French speaking Belgians.
Ms Poulicek has seen the linguistic light and confides in Epstein that actually she's very keen, "to learn Dutch and to do a lot of things on the Dutch side of the country and with Dutch people... and I have to do my best to try to speak Dutch."
Produced by ABC Australia
Distributed by Journeyman Pictures
What the f..ck has Lourdes to do with Belgium. What an annoying unnecessery twist. This has nothing, and I mean, nothing to do with an divided Belgium.
When King Albert II was waving at the people from his balcony. He heard only french cheers. He asked his aid: "Were are the Flemish?" His aid anwsered: "At work."
I have learned Dutch and French - both beautiful languages with rich cultures. We in the West must unite against other threats than each other. Tot ziens! A toute a l'heure.
They are the same language, although linguisticaly it refers to a group of dialects spoken in only a small part of present day Flanders. But generally it is used as a name for "Dutch as spoken in Belgium" There are some differences in pronunciation but the writing is exactly the same.
As a country, officially only since 1830, conquered by all as far back as Ceasar but always united in it's uniqueness by that ancient history no matter what or who
Facts Part 2
- The Walloons claims Flemish territory to expand Brussels (Brussels is a region with equal rights like Flanders and Wallonia)
- Flemish social housing institutes asks non-dutch speaking candidates to understand Dutch in order to integrate into the community. There is no obligation.
- Flanders stands for 80 % of the export of goods from Belgium.
- Most of the income of taxes is equally divided between all regions.
- Flemings and Walloons DONT hate each other!
The name Belgium was in use in the periods between the Roman province Belgica and the modern country of Belgium, it was just used as the Latin name for the whole of the Netherlands (NL + BE) Before 1830 the words "Belgium" and "The Netherlands" were synonyms. On Maps of the Dutch colonies in America you can see the name "New Netherlands" in both Dutch (Nieuw-Nederland) and Latin (Novum Belgium)
Those million Flemings in Wallonia, do they demand facilities, continue to speak Dutch to everybody or even claim the teritory on which they live ?
I am of origin of Mons and I live now in Flanders, and I can say to you that in my area of origin, Flemish always has welcome and everyone have much respect for them. Thus if you want friends Walloon (I doubt it). Come to Mons-Borinage.
I live just outside Brussels. To me Brussels is not a region just an ill governed city. It is part of the socio-economic region of Flanders. At this point for example Brussels can inforce strict soundlevels for over flying airplanes, in such a way that the people living in the urban areas around Brussels have to deal with this. This has to stop.
That's not what this is about, and you know it. We're not language fascists, this is mostly about Francophones moving to Flemish regions, refusing to speak the language of their surroundings, and gradually trying to attach yet another Flemish region to Francophonia. It already happened to Brussels, a 100 years ago a majority Du-speaking city, and 100s of years before that. Flanders used to run all the way down to Dunkerque (Duinkerken), yet we get accused of wanting to Flemify the French.
@keuteltjes thanks for all the info about Flanders , i live in quebec ,but i speak both English but my grandfather is from Flanders ( Zele). I did not know there was so much contreversy between both sides. I hope the flemish prosper :)
I cant wait to visit ,i just hope i dont get shot down cause i speak french lol
I totaly understand your point thou ,thanks so much for the info ,have a great day :)
excelent vid clips.Thanx for uploading.
This is why a nation must have a National Language. One of the basic foundations of any Nation is to be able to travel about that Nation and have a common tongue so you are able to communicate.
Though I admit this is a difficult circumstance.
When a francophone newspaper writes something like this about Flanders, you call it irony. When a Flemish paper (it was a cartoon) does it its called racism.
Why is half of this program on Lourdes in France? What has that to do with Belgium? It doesn't even mention it in the information to the right.
I'm from the Philippines and I'm no European. In my opinion, Belgium's gotta split. Flanders seems to be depended by Wallonia so much and its culture could soon assimilate into French.
Wallonia needs to try to handle things on its own. It can unite with France or cooperate with it so it can survive.
I'm not insulting anybody here. Please don't get offended.
@19alexander95 er staat een vraagteken achter,ken jij ze?
It always caught my attention that back in the 1800s they had to name this patch of land in such an artificial way with a very old roman name, such as "belgium"
We have never been one people..
Since this video was recorded, Belgium has become a federal country and many of these issues have been solved. As in most countries, extremism still exists, but the majority of the people doesn't care and live in peace.
@LaGresse And why do you think Flanders was in such a bad state? Because it was stripped of all its wealth, paid more taxes, yet received none of the benefits. Belgian history is rife with injustice towards the Flemish, so don't be surprised that we will never let that happen again. And if you absolutely have to feel superior, make sure we're not the ones paying for it. Also, what's with calling the Flemish illiterate? Most of us speak a minimum of 3 languages (unlike most Francophones).
I love Belgium. The people are very nice and respectful. I wish I can live there. It's my dream.
@xelora Except for the fact that the rest of Canada (Flanders) doesn't have to pay Quebec (Wallonia) over €12.000.000.000 a year to keep them afloat, and that's just what disappears over the table. That's more than former W-Germany pays to E-Germany. I could go on but I'm not going to. I'll just get labeled intolerant for stating facts. And I haven't even posted the more severe inequalities that the majority Flemish had to endure in this country, now and in the past.
you're right the problem seems to go much deeper then my simplistic view. I knew a Belgian woman from there quite well and she spoke 5 languages and seemed to be quite comfortable in either the French or Flemish area. I never detected any animosity from other Beliques towards her. Can't say I know the answer now, maybe being split is the best one.
Flemish (Vlaams) is just one of many local Dutch dialects spoken over the Low Countries, not a national language. Flemish belongs together with Hollands, Brabants, Limburgs, Gelders, etc.
Anyone willing to judge us should make sure that they know the history. Be aware of the status of the Dutcj lmanguage in Belgium and how it was and in many ways still is treated by the Francophones. Be aware of the fact that the Flemish have done nothing but compromise since day 1, it has to come from both sides, not jsut ours. The fact that so many francophones compare the Flemish refusal to bend over backwards ever again to fascism and intolerance is another reason for independence.
@canyouheartme:You are right.When every Flemisch decision to improve the prosperity in Flanders and in Belgium is considered as threatening for Wallonia and therefore is rejected , it is normal that they don't understand the logic of that and want to go their own way. Most of the people in Flanders don't want to split but see a separation as the only way to continue their life in a true democratic country.
@shakracon
In Flanders first language is dutch, second is french, third is english and for the fourth one you can most of the time chose between german and spanish.
In the French speaking part, dutch is not the second language like french is in Flanders... Although some people make the effort to learn more dutch
@Brezable I see your point...by the way , did the British ever learn to speak Native American?
Fair comment, thanks for the clarification.
Facts Part I:
- French speaking habitants of some Flemish communities can vote on Walloon political parties.
- Dutch speaking habitants of Wallonia can not vote on Flemish political parties.
- Flanders wants a new governmental structure in order to obtain more control on the destination of their taxes.
- Wallonia wants to remain the actual governmental situation.
- Flanders wants to abolish the right of French speaking habitants of Flanders to vote on Walloon political parties.
@seatleontsi1 owja?
ken je de cijfers dan wel?
Proud to be Flemish
Sympa et convivial. Bravo! Thank's! :-)
Having Flanders pay €17,000,000,000 per year to Wallonia (more than former West-Germany ever paid to rebuild East-germany after the unification, even though Wallonia is 10x times smaller), and then calling us intolerant while in fact it was always the Flemish that had to fight to be able to speak their own language in their own country, is unacceptable. The best solution is to split the country before it gets any worse.
Wat de toekomst ook brengt, Vlamingen en Nederlanders delen een taal en, voor een groot gedeelte, een geschiedenis. Een paar willekeurig getrokken lijnen in de aarde veranderen daar niets aan. Ik hoop voor een spoedige en effectieve oplossing voor dit probleem.
Minutes after being crowned Miss Belgium, Alizee Poulicek, a French speaker, stepped out of the pages of a fashion magazine and into the fire of the separatist debate. Why? Someone, please correct me if I am right or wrong. Is it because it was abnormal for her to not speak Dutch? Why is it abnormal?
I don't understand why the Walloons and Flemish seem to speak english pretty well, but haven't bothered to learn each others language.
Why don't they encourage bilingualism in french/dutch??
The atomium isn't a iron molecule, it represents the way how iron atoms are structurized. Every sphere is an iron-atom.
Yes, but you made it look like the disdain starts with the Flemish.
In my original response I spoke of 2 regions with special status for Brussels and Belgium can still exist in name. Thats reasonable. Besides I don't want to pay for 7 (yes you read it right) 7 parliaments we have currently. Who pays for this all? Flanders paid in 2005 5,6 billion euros financial aid for the french part. Its simpel the man who pays the bill has a right to be heard - but not in Belgium it seems.
What would happen to the German-speaking community if Belgium split?
I must agree.There are faults and it is obvious in each side. The Flemish requests are unacceptable for the French-speaking people to keep a united Belgium.Flemish policies find the refusal of the French-speaking people like a provocation. Thus obviously we have a problem.Unfortunately.
Sorry to hear that you feel that way. didn't really know about the Flemish people, thanks for your informing me.
I am 35 and live in Flanders. I like to travel and meet new people. I have friends all over Europe, some live in US (Michigan) and Kenia (Mombassa). But I don't have friends in Wallony. Why? When I speak french with a flemish accent they turn their backs like I'm a bad person. There's a whole history that you have to study and understand before judging the flemish people, it's not all black and white...
@shakracon
The secondary language taught in Flemish schools is french, atleast for every school in the provinces connected to the walloonian (?what a weird word?) side. German is optional when you reach 13-14 years,
I live in the town they discribed at around 8 minutes, and almost none of it is true. That school DOES let kids in who don't/barely speak dutch. Yesterday were the elections or whatever you can call them, and barely anyone from this town voted for the right wings
Roman Belgium is more like a part of France. I think The Netherlands were called Batavia.
The dutch probably choose the name Belgium for the same reason we did; being the Bravest of all(according to De Bello Gallico).
The problem in Belgium, The flemish part wants to move forward,The Wallons, they want all the opposite. So if you have something pushing backwards, you need to cut this extra weight.
Either the whole country moves forward or this country is not going anywhere. If every part of the country becomes financial interdependent, like in Switzerland ... everything will be fine, and nobody will have doubts about Belgium as a country.
Come to think about it. "Walloonia" was part of the Netherlands, and unlike Brabant where the lord spoke "Dutch", French (Picardian) has always been the offical language of Flanders (now West- East-, french- and Zeeuws Flanders) untill modern day Flanders (which is totally different from the original region of Flanders that was once owned by the French kings since the 10th century) adopted Dutch as its sole official language somewhere in the 20th C.
You're confused.. Our standard language is Dutch (Nederlands), it's our language as much as theirs, we are the Southern-Dutch in all but name. In fact, the Dutch language has much of its roots in what is now Flemish Brabant.
a movement in that direction is splitting the country...
Actually exploiting Congo happened back in the days where the Walloons were still in control of things, you know, pre-WW2 and some time after that :-) The king that gave us Congo saw the Flemish as farmers and was heavily pro-Walloon. French Imperialism I guess?
While it is common to differentiate between BE-Dutch and NL-Dutch by calling them Flemish & Hollands, neither of these terms are linguistically correct. Flemish as a dialect is spoken only in 2 of the 5 Dutch-speaking Belgian provinces: Oost- & West-Vlaanderen. If tghe rest of the Du-sp provinces refer to their dialect they will do so by calling them Limburgs, Brabants or Antwerps, not Flemish.
Basically the system needs to be revised, less government and less throwing money out of the window french or flemish.
Still Brussels is ill governed have you tried to get a building permit in Brussels? You get gray hear dealing with those ***. In Walonia you have to know the mayor to get things done. In Flanders you just have to follow the law, so much clearer and more simple.
These people talking about how Belgium is divided but they had no idea how it feels to be belgian. We belgians feel the same time part of our comunity and also a brotherhood. A french speaker feel walloon inside belgium, and belgian outside
@wencesbahena Perhaps ur right but i think they are already happy because they have their own state right?
in flanders, the first language they teach you in school is dutch, secondary english and then german (optional), in wallon, the french speaking art, the first language they tech in schol is french, secondary english, is assume dutch comes next, but i'm not sure...i just want to point out this says a lot about the wallon respect for flanders...the least you can do is leanr the languages people speak in your OWN country...wallons only want belgium when it suits THEM
im from flanders but i don't want belgium divided, ok the language barrier is a big issue but i bet we can solve it "! Lang leve België !"
you could compare it with the difference between English spoken in Britain and America. It's the same language but pronounced differently
they're not racists, they just tell the things how they are ...
truth is hard, especially when you know they're right .
Walen moet eens Nederlands leren! Of Duits! Want die worden ook vaak vergeten!
Everytime the Flemish speak about the Walloons in a rather negative way, I think they mean the habitants of Brussels and periphery and there polititians in particular. I personaly never had any problems with people on the French side of the country, on the contrary. Although I speak French, some of them were making efforts to speek Dutch with me, just to proof they are willing to do so.
ja jij hebt inderdaad gelijk!
maar vind jij dat Vlaanderen samen met Nederland een confederatie moet beginnen? of vind jij dat vlaanderen onafhankelijk moet worden?
Jacques,
The fact that they are separatists, that does not imply that they are racists. That's the easy WORD for all the immigrants who do not integrate in this nice country called Belgium.
Even though I do not cope with Vlaams Belang, I must say that they are being treated with disrespect. CORDON SANITAIRE ? in the year 2009 ? This is not democratic at all.
Why is no one looking at Switzerland and think to themselves 'How does that work?'
Serbians are schismatical heretics
convert to Roman Catholicism
Vaticancatholic.com
Thie difference is that the different speaking regions of Switzerland all contribute the same. In Belgium it is that Flanders has to do all the work (money transfers to the economically weak Walloonia, high unemployment, lots of unnecessary striks, expensive public sector,...) and that in Switerland everybody speaks eachothers language but in Walloonia they still see Dutch as inferior all the while they learn French even in elementary school.
Marc L. I get that one is Germanic and the other is Romance, but in Switzerland there is one Germanic language along with three Romance languages.
unknown PeaceSheriff The difference in language or the origine or family doesn't matter. The fact that Dutch speaking citizens were repressed because of their language only really ended in the sixties. Now the Flemish region accounts for 90% of Belgiums export and that the Walloon region is faultering on almost every front some Flemmings are asking why they should pay taxes to help save the sinking ships that is Walloonia. Expecially when some Walloons still feel superior and hate to the Flemmish people.
How ahistorical of you. Walloonia you say? There was no united Walloonia but rural provinces with separate rulers. They sided with the Spanish king because unlike the Northern urbanized region "Walloonia" didn't have a strong protestant population, a strong class of merchants favouring less taxes, etc. It wasn't chauvenism but "economics". Also, in the North-East regions sided with the king because these regions were also less urbanized than the west and north-wast (holland, flanders, Brabant).
Are you dutch?
"They are unemployed but they really know how to have a good party" typical of lazy people. All regions with carnivals except maybe Venice are not exactly famous for good economic progress, all the contrary.
Lourdes we have our same little Lourdes in west flanders
I agree.
"It is sad for me as an American that we are held in such contempt in much of Europe"
Far less than you have been led to believe. And we could say the same in reverse.
kinda hard to explain,
In the debat about the seperation of belgium, language is the less of our concerns. about 6 million flemish people live in belgium and about 4million walloons.
When belgium would be divided, flanders would almost instantly become one of the richest regions of europe and wallonia would fall back to one of the poorest( wich they are already) in a 6 million people region for example 2 of 10 are unemployed. in the 4 million region (wallonia) 4 of 10 are. but because belgium...
the reason why Belgium is not separated is that the french want us so that we can pay their lives !
Het komt wel zo over.. *-)
whats the difference between dutch and flemish?
What is this report, what has Lourdes to do with division of Belgium?
In Canada, most Canadians speak French OR English. Maybe 5-10% are bilingual. With immigration though we have people that don't speak either.
inderdaad...
Indeed, I lived in both Swiss and now BE and Swiss is the good version of a state without one culture or language. Belgium needs to be a confederation
none whatso ever--the two languages are as different as night and day.
@1Delu Hi, Well...wallon and flanders are two deifferent cultures.nearly 50% of my wage goes to taxes.About 60% of our inhabitants live in flanders, however the wallons recieve about the same amount of money from the federal government. Resulting in a high unemployment rate in wallon, despite alle the (more) money they get.The wallons are slowly invading the border regions of flanders and i don't think any country would accept that.But,when we,flemmish people act as such,we are called racists
When a french speaking person opens a shop in a village in flanders with 50% of french speakers and 50% flemish, he often wont speak dutch. And when flemish people in that village go to THAT shop, they are named racists becouse they are not willing to speak french!
@Brezable I agree with you
Asking for language facilities is fine, just as long as it's a stop-gap measure until you learn the other language. Not as an excuse to transform the area. But Flemish people that move to Wallonia don't ask for those things, we learn French. That's it.
When i think Belgium, i Think Dutch, Not french... Shame such things divide a country. When you goto sports events you cheer for your sports people regardless which region they come from?
its just crazy.
beuatiful country, has some major problems, and other things that i guess are ignored because of the split, like having the 3 most poluted rivers in europe.
I hope they can work it out.
For the language, which is political excuse, we should make like Arabic who has all understood on their premises: Each one speaks HIS language and understands the other, one is expressed in its native tongue and the other answers him in his. Thus just to understand the language of the other would avoid us many absurd problems…
What about the German-speaking community? They are always forgotten :c
Read it from the bottum up. from kinda hard to explain---> correct?
Ik ben Amerikaan en ik spreek het Nederlands en het Frans!
Dat is niet te moeilijk. Deze zijn twee gemakkelijk talen.
Walloons have kept allowing citizenship to a non-employable illegal immigrants-only to enlarge their population numbers. Walloons need more voters to counterbalance the requests from the Flemish for dividing the country (which is divided already), Their way of securing such economic permanence in the Belgian Union is irresponsible, because their new immigrants often only become permanent public assistance recipients.
@latengocomoburro strange then that most of the festivals and parties are in flanders... rock werchter (largest rock festival in europe), tomorrowland (largest dance festival in europe) and so many others... all in flanders.
Duinkerken is French, lol. We've given up on it long ago. :D
Please every one That think THE same way join us
@seatleontsi1 ongeveer,
2 Miljard naar Brussel,
en 12 Miljard (ongeveer) naar Wallonië.
en ik dacht dat 80% van "hun" belastinginkomsten van Vlaanderen komt.
Ooh, what you do isn't that important. Flanders is old and wise enough to decide on its own how it wants to be governed. And, the resistance against Belgium is mounting, now already for 18 years. In that period, the pro-Belgium parties have known nothing but electoral defeats. And, it will continue this year. If you live in Flanders, you should know that, at least. Belgium is only good for raising poverty. During the past 20 year, the Belgian poverty-rate is trippled. What a country! :)
Because it's the truth !!!!
who told you that they are from Belgium ? There is a whole comic-book devoted after them trying to establish that they were better warriors than belgians. Wrong info. mate !
It shouldn't be limited but it should be included. A bit of patriotism is good. It's what makes you do things for your country.
@XavierReyes1 That's going to be really hard to do when Francophones have always look at the Flemish culture as being inferior. Our money is good, though.