How amazing would it be if the serious adult drama about a the election of a new Pope ended with the newly elected Pope being shown a UFO in the Vatican vault. Cut to his silent reaction, then credits. I'd love it. 😆
The older-adult-heavy crowd actually made for an awful theater experience for me. Forget teenagers, old people are far worse at constantly talking during movies like they are sitting in their living rooms.
My favorite story about this: Back in 2003, I was watching Open Water in front of an older couple. Near the end of the movie, during a really quiet and intense scene, the lady leans over to husband and whisper-shouts "I think Jaws is better."
I think the difference is that they're more likely to actually stop talking if you shush them. Teenagers just laugh at best, begin targeted harrassment at worst.
In regards to the spoiler Dan is talking about: I think the twist is trying to show how even the correct cardinal earning the papacy can have a "black mark" against him. Making Benitez's inevitable flaw/sin something something he didn't have influence over and one that the former pope accepted I think still proves the point that he is the correct cardinal to become Pope. Additionally, as someone who was raised Catholic, I found that last discussion riveting since a fundamental belief is that every person is made "in God's image." I can understand how it feels out of left field but I did think it was an important note to show that Benitez was also a "flawed human."
I loved the ending of Conclave because it really ties a bow on the overall story. It's clear throughout that everyone is trying to do whatever it takes to get their choice of next pope up but there is one clear person who was ahead of everything here and not only set things up to get the exact person they wanted as the next pope but also highlights the type of person/leader they are in knowing exactly who the person they are getting this position really is.
By the one clear person - do you mean the pope that died? I felt like he was the one that set the whole thing up to ensure his legacy and move the church in the direction he wanted it to go
I can't believe Tucci only has one nomination. That's criminal! He's such a solid character actor, often understated in the moment, but memorable in the long term. He's one of those rare performers that makes the rest of the cast look good because he's a wonderful scene partner.
Always a treat to see him show up in things…shocked he didn’t get a supporting nomination for Devil Wears Prada or Julie and Julia. Big Night is also one that I think is getting a little lost in time now that deserved more love
The ending will certainly trigger some outrage, but I hope it generates some good critical discussion too. After some thought, I felt it worked well in the context of this story about secrets, faith, and the internal and external perceptions of the church, and made me reflect on those themes even further. This is why I love Dan as a critic, he’s willing to engage with the material sincerely even after his initial reactions.
This sounds like Margin Call - a surprisingly suspenseful and engaging thriller with no violence or sex - nothing but meetings in boring-looking offices.
Hey Dan just wanted to let you know I watched The Remarkable Life of Ibelin today on Netflix because of your recommendation and it's also become one of my favorite films of the year for its impact and heartbreaking story and I'm glad you hyped it up for me
Without giving anything away I think 🤔 ya important to remember that this movie is based on a novel and that is how the novel ends. So it’s not like the director or writer decided to throw a curve ball. That is the actual ending of the story…and if you think about that early monologue from Feines and how he said he thinks the new pope/church should not be rooted in “certainties” it’s actually quite a beautiful and fitting place for the movie to end up. I also saw an early screening full of older folks and I heard some sneers as well but I don’t think they quite understood what actually was being communicated.
I think that may be part of my issue - it's not very clearly communicated exactly what's happening, which can leave some room for misinterpretation, especially if one has already jumped to a conclusion. I'm sure it's more clear in the book.
Definitely intrigued. It was on my list of possible movies to see in theatres but now I definitely want to see what this is about and see the twists. Thanks Dan for your amazing review.
I appreciate your discussion on the rating…my wife is not a big fan of lots of swearing in movies and I was shocked when I saw this was rated PG. It’s nice to have a movie aimed at adults that doesn’t feel like it has to add out of place elements to be “adult”.
I just watched the film myself and agree with Dan both in regards to the film and to the audience that I saw the film with I am super interested in a spoiler review that talks about the potential meaning of the ultimate ending
I've read the book and I saw what the author was going for. It kinda ties together the overarching theme of how the institutions of men fall short to the "will of God". Maybe that's kinda lost in this adaptation? I'm excited to see this movie for myself.
My compliments on not spoiling the twist. Alas I haven't yet seen the movie, but I've heard about the twist from several sources (I wanted to ask if this movie directed by M. Night Shyamalan), and I quite understand your observations. As always, thank you so very much for the videos.
“Anora” pushed “Inside Out 2” out of my Top Ten Best Films of 2024 list. “Conclave” pushed out “Furiosa” off my list. “Dune Part 2” is holding on to the crown in the face of powerful competition. “The Brutalist” may be Lisan al Gaib’s most formidable competition this year (that run time tho). 👑#1. Dune: Part Two 🥈#2. Anora 🥉#3. The Substance Strange Darling Oddity Conclave Hitman The Wild Robot Challengers Love Lies Bleeding
My only problem with the end twist is that it will likely end up killing the movie through word of mouth which when there is so little original work of value anymore you would hate to see.
I was wondering if they would bottle out of the final twist in the book, it would appear not. Its a weird route to go down when that final shock would be an entire film on its own in the hands of more shlocky filmmakers.
I agree, that ending twist was not needed. I would have cut that scene just because I don't feel it added anything to elevate the film. Spoiler Correct me if I'm wrong, he's a hermaphrodite. I thought as the scene was playing out that he was actually a woman, but I feel that what they were trying to say without saying it was that he a man with a womb.
Cinema Impressions did a review and mentioned the unusual twist (without giving anything away) and said exactly the same thing as Dan, that comes out of nowhere. Apparently the twist is in Robert Harris book. I am actually really quite intrigued by the twist and the overall good review, that I can't wait to see it.
I love awards season, as I get older it's much more my thing than summer blockbusters. Just a shame that they typically get released way in advance for the North American market. Conclave is showing in two cinemas near me in mid-November, precisely one time each, at 9pm on a Monday night. I don't drive and public transport here is terrible, so considering I'll hear about the twist in the gap between releases anyway, this is one I'll end up watching at home instead. Why is it so hard to support movies?!
This movie is what Scorcese described as a smuggler movie. It's very subversive in a subtle way and it's even PG rated. Lot's of heavy themes. I think it's a great movie, but it will be polarizing.
I saw it tonight and I loved it. The ending was certainly interesting I’m still not sure 100% how I feel about it but I do feel like it represents a lot of the themes of the film especially uncertainty and doubt. My issue with it was that it felt like it took away some of the momentum of the rest of the film away.
I can respect Conclave for going in on just making it a PG. Would have been so tempting to just throw in a "Fuck" so it can get a PG-13 to get a more adult audience (Akin to "Arrival", which I really like, but it really did not need it's F-Bomb, it's pretty much a PG film without it.), but they decided to eschew that.
Question for those that have seen it, how much of it is NOT in English? I'm expecting some Latin but... Also, John Lithgow playing a French-Canadian, high ranking cardinal... Yeah, I wonder who that's supposed to refer to 🙄
I agree, its a solid, perfectly crafted movie. But it is very slow, its more or less "Murder on the Vaticenexpress" - like Ingrid Bergman in the 1974 movie with Albert Finney as Poirot, her daughter Isabella Rosselini has her moment here. And the movie is promising more in the first act then it is able to deliver in the end. The idea at the end probably works perhaps in the book better, because it is critizising the church and their view on gender equality. But this is not cinematic or at least the film is not able to establish this problem during the first 90 minutes to make this relevant for the storytelling. In my view this is a solid movie, which you really do not have to see.
As a Catholic, this review troubles me a little, and has further helped me decide to not support it. A lot of that decision has to do with that final "thing added on" (which, if it's the same as the book, is not something I want to support being down in depictions of the Church on screen). But now than that, I dislike this popular notion of the Cardinals thinking they are above sin. I trust Dan to be fair, so i assume that's the way it's portrayed in the movie, but the bishops that i have had the pleasure of meeting and hearing from are the first to talk about their own sins and failings. I won't deny there are bad apples - every institution has them, even though the Church should be even more on guard against certain types of predators. However, continuing this popular notion that all people in power are corrupt, especially when it comes to the Church, is not something I want to support. I love Ralph Fiennes and Stanley Tucci, and I hope they get some Oscar love, but I can't support this story.
Ok I see. I think in the book it was alluded to quite a bit (I read it) so it was not that shocking but I also found it a bit pointless, like it could have just ended without that info and it would have been fine.
The sad thing is, I haven’t even seen the movie and I was fully intrigued until the mentioned “twist”. I already knew what it is, and its the same twist any secular media is going to give a religious work. Its not thought provoking, its eye rolling. Its 2024, so its gonna be everyones first guess. My issue with these films is the discussions they provoke are surface level drama intended for a non-believing audience. I enjoy propositions, but putting board-line atheistic worldviews on leading religious officials always comes off as unauthentic to me.
My neighbors 10 yr daughter was born intersex. her daughter appears female but has no ovaries and no uterus. She will never be pregnant, never have a menstrual cycle. Her mom hopes estrogen will allow her to at least have her body initiate puberty, but its unknown. She could end up a grown adult with the body shape of a pre-pubescent person forever. My neighbor was afraid, I would be afraid of my daughter being friends with her daughter. I told her no worries. Our children are good friends, and my daughter has learned that sometimes gender itself might not be typical. In the movie Conclave, the cardinal who is intersex, has a different issue, his body appears male. He always assumed he was male, until in his 30’s an appendix removal surgery shocked him with the reveal that in addition to having fully functional male genitalia the Conclave movie character also had a uterus and ovaries (no fallopian tubes) in his torso. He never had breasts and did develop as a man. From my own point of view, I thought this movie was FANTASTIC! The Intersex birth defect where some genitalia fails to develop, and the individual presents as a single gender; or the more rare complicated situation. where a child is born with internal genitalia parts of both male and female, which may, or more likely, may not be fully present, is a challenge to explain. My neighbor’s daughter underwent a full body scan upon turning 10, to make sure she did not have undeveloped male genitalia in her body. She thinks of herself as a girl, even though she is lacking, since birth, a uterus and ovaries. Physically, she biologically appears to be a 10yr female. Her Chromosomes are Xo. Part of one of her two X chromosomes broke and the two ends of the broken X portions bent and became joined to form a ring. She got lucky. The portion that broke off was small enough that she is still genetically female (XX) but with the additional broken-off “o” part. If More had broken off, of that one X chromosome she would have developed as a Boy with (XY) genetics, and would have developed male genitalia, but may have been sterile. The cardinal Character in ConClave is a characterization of the very Rare (Xo-XY) situation. He presents as male, his body developed as a male, he went through Male Puberty, but his body also had a uterus, and ovaries from birth without his knowledge or awareness, though the ovaries had no fallopian tube connection, he never ovulated, and no breasts ever developed. The point of the end of the movie is, he is, simply himself, and because of having his appendix removed in his 30’s, he then became aware that he is a male who also partially female. Technically he is partly both genders, which the character knows to be odd, but it is, this character’s reality, in the movie, and that should help the Character to have empathy and compassion as he follows the path ahead in his life. I will be showing this movie to my 9yr daughter. I know what her reaction to the end will be. (I.e., “Hey mom and dad”, “The cardinal guy in the end, is just like my friend, only older, with a different group missing or extra private parts, and he ended up looking male. Wow, I’m glad movies are acknowledging that people like my friend are real people.”). Then my daughter will just continue doing whatever she was doing, before the movie. I think this is a great movie, to assist people in understanding that life is not binary. (Black/white, or good/bad, or Just Male/Just Female, … etc.,) People are complicated. Often the best people to lead, are people who do not desire leadership, but are capable when they need to lead, because they care that everyone survives, and they put others first.
Of course, that condition is no reason to deny anyone a job in any profession or vocation. Why would it? What sane person would discriminate against someone for their odd gender development? Unfortunately, in the real world I would lay money on the Catholic hierarchy demanding the person step down and immediately leave the clergy. Their own ingrained misogyny is not something the Church wants to confront, yet. Among other things.
In the novel by Robert Harris, all of this is slightly different (and less detailed) but the "core" is the same. There, - SPOILER - Benitez, born in a very poor background, thinks her (his? which pronoun should I use? sincerely, I do not know...) deformed genitalia are after all those of a man. Benitez thinks he/she is a man, he/she is brought up as a man, never has sex with anybody, enters the seminary where nobody asks certain questions. And as a priest first, bishop and then archbishop later, Benitez does a lot of laudable and courageous jobs, such as helping sex slaves and sheltering and protecting Christians from persecution and killings by extremists in the Middle East. I wish to think that Benitez is elected for such reasons. As in the film, Benitez comes to know his/her condition after some surgery (had to be recovered in a hospital because wounded in a terroristic attack). Benitez said that he/she felt terribly shocked at the news, as if he/she has done something terribly wrong and sinful. The previous Pope (the one who dies at the beginning of the story) is informed, and leaves the decision on what to do to Benitez, who choices not to remove his/her female parts and to keep being archbishop of those tortured lands. Far from being disappointed by this choice, the Pope appoints Benitez as Cardinal "in pectore" - unknown to the others red hats. That's why he/she shows up in the film and in the book as "one who was not on the list".
I thought it was pretty obvious that cardinal who ascended to the Pontiff. The only question I had was how since he is seen kind of a nobody and background figure in the movie. Sure the movie tried portray the Cardinals with fault, especially those that saw the pontiff position. I thought the message was pretty straightforward and easy for audience to digest. Then came the wildcard twist at the end and I thought to myself are they gonna make the new Pontiff what I think they are and I was correct they did. I can see how kid that leave a big distaste on people but then again if you follow, any religious text Abraham religions I guess you are image of God therefore who are we to judge. I only wish the cardinal who has sent it to the Ponte. Could I have played a bigger role in the movie and kinda provided morality or no judgment to those who were seeking upon position and failed
When I saw they framed it as this thriller and then said it was rated PG, I was out lol. I don't know if that's fair, but I was trying to figure out how much teeth this would have while maintaining that rating. If the movie doesn't lose it's ability to make strong commentary and deal with difficult subjects without pushing the rating, then that might be a breath of fresh air.
It's expressed by a character in the film who is consistently intolerant, and painted as backwards-thinking, and refuted by the only character in the movie who has first-hand experience living in an Islamic country. I don't believe the movie itself is Islamophobic, just as Schindler's List isn't antisemitic despite having characters who hold those beliefs. Context matters.
Message unclear, I am now thinking Ralph Fiennes was abducted by aliens in Conclave
How amazing would it be if the serious adult drama about a the election of a new Pope ended with the newly elected Pope being shown a UFO in the Vatican vault. Cut to his silent reaction, then credits. I'd love it. 😆
"Your Holiness, you've just taken your first step into a larger world."
@@DanMurrellMovies cue marvel trailer brrrrrruuu sound.
God, I hope so.
The older-adult-heavy crowd actually made for an awful theater experience for me.
Forget teenagers, old people are far worse at constantly talking during movies like they are sitting in their living rooms.
My favorite story about this: Back in 2003, I was watching Open Water in front of an older couple. Near the end of the movie, during a really quiet and intense scene, the lady leans over to husband and whisper-shouts "I think Jaws is better."
@DanMurrellMovies I *wish* all the people in my theater at least whisper-shouted. They just talked full volume.
I had a similar problem. The lady next to me didn’t turn her phone off
I think the difference is that they're more likely to actually stop talking if you shush them. Teenagers just laugh at best, begin targeted harrassment at worst.
@HelloMisterJAMWAH oh they did not. Just glared at me like "what's the problem?"
Conclave, Anora, Brutalist, Gladiator, Nosferatu, and more. We got a wild last couple months coming up for films!
Nosferatu is gonna bang so fucking hard I can’t wait
In regards to the spoiler Dan is talking about:
I think the twist is trying to show how even the correct cardinal earning the papacy can have a "black mark" against him. Making Benitez's inevitable flaw/sin something something he didn't have influence over and one that the former pope accepted I think still proves the point that he is the correct cardinal to become Pope. Additionally, as someone who was raised Catholic, I found that last discussion riveting since a fundamental belief is that every person is made "in God's image." I can understand how it feels out of left field but I did think it was an important note to show that Benitez was also a "flawed human."
Plot twist is the Catholic Church is secretly governed by a giant queen spider.
But she is Italian, so everybody is fine with it.
Nice South Park reference. 👍
Jon Peters shadow account, confirmed!
Hippotus Hoppotus Do Rey Maus
I loved the ending of Conclave because it really ties a bow on the overall story.
It's clear throughout that everyone is trying to do whatever it takes to get their choice of next pope up but there is one clear person who was ahead of everything here and not only set things up to get the exact person they wanted as the next pope but also highlights the type of person/leader they are in knowing exactly who the person they are getting this position really is.
By the one clear person - do you mean the pope that died? I felt like he was the one that set the whole thing up to ensure his legacy and move the church in the direction he wanted it to go
The plot twist was so good I legit laughed because my theater was speechless… I will be buying a physical 4k if it releases!
I can't believe Tucci only has one nomination. That's criminal! He's such a solid character actor, often understated in the moment, but memorable in the long term. He's one of those rare performers that makes the rest of the cast look good because he's a wonderful scene partner.
Always a treat to see him show up in things…shocked he didn’t get a supporting nomination for Devil Wears Prada or Julie and Julia. Big Night is also one that I think is getting a little lost in time now that deserved more love
Great opening joke 😂 Dan! Thanks!
oh shit, they got The Tucc for this?
The ending will certainly trigger some outrage, but I hope it generates some good critical discussion too. After some thought, I felt it worked well in the context of this story about secrets, faith, and the internal and external perceptions of the church, and made me reflect on those themes even further. This is why I love Dan as a critic, he’s willing to engage with the material sincerely even after his initial reactions.
Oh my gosh that opening line about elections. Perfect. No notes.
This sounds like Margin Call - a surprisingly suspenseful and engaging thriller with no violence or sex - nothing but meetings in boring-looking offices.
Margin Call is fantastic!
I have tickets for a matinee tomorrow to see this film and I'm super excited to check it out!
I expect Fiennes to get serious consideration, as well as the film itself. One of the most, if not the most, impressive of the year for me.
Hey Dan just wanted to let you know I watched The Remarkable Life of Ibelin today on Netflix because of your recommendation and it's also become one of my favorite films of the year for its impact and heartbreaking story and I'm glad you hyped it up for me
Without giving anything away I think 🤔 ya important to remember that this movie is based on a novel and that is how the novel ends. So it’s not like the director or writer decided to throw a curve ball. That is the actual ending of the story…and if you think about that early monologue from Feines and how he said he thinks the new pope/church should not be rooted in “certainties” it’s actually quite a beautiful and fitting place for the movie to end up. I also saw an early screening full of older folks and I heard some sneers as well but I don’t think they quite understood what actually was being communicated.
I think that may be part of my issue - it's not very clearly communicated exactly what's happening, which can leave some room for misinterpretation, especially if one has already jumped to a conclusion. I'm sure it's more clear in the book.
Definitely intrigued. It was on my list of possible movies to see in theatres but now I definitely want to see what this is about and see the twists. Thanks Dan for your amazing review.
Man... how can your reviews be so good...? Incredibly conscise, insightful and fascinating as always keep it up
Ending fizzled a bit, but thoroughly enjoyed the journey there
Tucci should have also been nominated for ‘Devil Wears Prada’.
I appreciate your discussion on the rating…my wife is not a big fan of lots of swearing in movies and I was shocked when I saw this was rated PG. It’s nice to have a movie aimed at adults that doesn’t feel like it has to add out of place elements to be “adult”.
I just watched the film myself and agree with Dan both in regards to the film and to the audience that I saw the film with I am super interested in a spoiler review that talks about the potential meaning of the ultimate ending
Great assessment Dan... I couldn't have said it any better mysrlf..
I've read the book and I saw what the author was going for. It kinda ties together the overarching theme of how the institutions of men fall short to the "will of God". Maybe that's kinda lost in this adaptation? I'm excited to see this movie for myself.
Seems like my type of movie, I love a dialogue driven flick, particularly those by Sydney Lumet.
Great video Dan, I'm definitely considering going to see this when it comes out in the UK next month.
the funniest thing about casting ralph fiennes as a pope type catholic is all i can think about his airplane tryst.
The buzz for this movie made me realize suddenly that Ralphe Finnes *doesn't* have an Oscar already.
its a see now for me chief
If it’s anything like tinker, tailor, soldier, spy then I’m going to be asleep
The ending was so surprising and definitely not necessary but it made me think about the possibility of the deceased Pope manipulating his Cardinals?
My compliments on not spoiling the twist. Alas I haven't yet seen the movie, but I've heard about the twist from several sources (I wanted to ask if this movie directed by M. Night Shyamalan), and I quite understand your observations.
As always, thank you so very much for the videos.
M Night Shyamalan is elected pope? I didn't know he was in the movie.
@@duckrutt That's what makes it such a surprise!!
“Anora” pushed “Inside Out 2” out of my Top Ten Best Films of 2024 list. “Conclave” pushed out “Furiosa” off my list. “Dune Part 2” is holding on to the crown in the face of powerful competition. “The Brutalist” may be Lisan al Gaib’s most formidable competition this year (that run time tho).
👑#1. Dune: Part Two
🥈#2. Anora
🥉#3. The Substance
Strange Darling
Oddity
Conclave
Hitman
The Wild Robot
Challengers
Love Lies Bleeding
My only problem with the end twist is that it will likely end up killing the movie through word of mouth which when there is so little original work of value anymore you would hate to see.
Just here to find out if the ending made Dan like this more or like it less
M Night Shamalan ending
Ending knocked my rating down. Until then it was very good.
Haven't seen it yet but it sounds like they pull a 10 Cloverfield Lane.
My guess they used the full sized set of the Sistine Chapel built for the film, The Two Popes, was used for Conclave.
You said this beautifully, Dan. Agree totally. It’s a B- from me. Would have been a B without the ending.
I was wondering if they would bottle out of the final twist in the book, it would appear not. Its a weird route to go down when that final shock would be an entire film on its own in the hands of more shlocky filmmakers.
If the "surprise" is something that makes the progressives happy, then the movie will be up for no less than 10 Oscar nominations!
I thought it’s themes were very overstated throughout and I was not a fan of Tucci’s acting in this film
I agree, that ending twist was not needed. I would have cut that scene just because I don't feel it added anything to elevate the film.
Spoiler
Correct me if I'm wrong, he's a hermaphrodite. I thought as the scene was playing out that he was actually a woman, but I feel that what they were trying to say without saying it was that he a man with a womb.
Can't we just have a normal fucking performance-driven drama without any left-field expectation-subverting plot twists?
I think "people talking thrillers" are more commonly known as "political thrillers" lol
Surely best to let them fight with croziers, swords and pistols and let God select the survivor to become Pope? Battle Papale.
I loved this movie
Cinema Impressions did a review and mentioned the unusual twist (without giving anything away) and said exactly the same thing as Dan, that comes out of nowhere. Apparently the twist is in Robert Harris book. I am actually really quite intrigued by the twist and the overall good review, that I can't wait to see it.
Sorry the other reviewer was Impression Blends not Cinema Impressions.
I’m calling it right now before I see the movie. They elected Jesus as the pope
I love awards season, as I get older it's much more my thing than summer blockbusters. Just a shame that they typically get released way in advance for the North American market. Conclave is showing in two cinemas near me in mid-November, precisely one time each, at 9pm on a Monday night. I don't drive and public transport here is terrible, so considering I'll hear about the twist in the gap between releases anyway, this is one I'll end up watching at home instead. Why is it so hard to support movies?!
They state the purpose of the ending in the idea of certainty.
This movie is what Scorcese described as a smuggler movie. It's very subversive in a subtle way and it's even PG rated. Lot's of heavy themes. I think it's a great movie, but it will be polarizing.
I saw it tonight and I loved it. The ending was certainly interesting I’m still not sure 100% how I feel about it but I do feel like it represents a lot of the themes of the film especially uncertainty and doubt. My issue with it was that it felt like it took away some of the momentum of the rest of the film away.
I was also the youngest person in my showing lol
haven't seen the movie but read the book. Really enjoyed 90% of the book but I have one thing to say about the ending that I told my daughter. "🙄"
Isabella Rossellinni is a goddess and, for that reason and that reason only, I will go see this movie.
Oh yes, even more stuff about elections
Let me guess: Isabella Rosselini's character becomes the new pope.
Will it pass the bechdel test though?
Would the entire Catholic Church pass the Bechdel test?
Please give us a list of your favourite ‘people talking’ thrillers?
I can respect Conclave for going in on just making it a PG. Would have been so tempting to just throw in a "Fuck" so it can get a PG-13 to get a more adult audience (Akin to "Arrival", which I really like, but it really did not need it's F-Bomb, it's pretty much a PG film without it.), but they decided to eschew that.
Question for those that have seen it, how much of it is NOT in English? I'm expecting some Latin but...
Also, John Lithgow playing a French-Canadian, high ranking cardinal... Yeah, I wonder who that's supposed to refer to 🙄
He’s not Canadian in the movie.
3:15 yes
I agree, its a solid, perfectly crafted movie. But it is very slow, its more or less "Murder on the Vaticenexpress" - like Ingrid Bergman in the 1974 movie with Albert Finney as Poirot, her daughter Isabella Rosselini has her moment here. And the movie is promising more in the first act then it is able to deliver in the end. The idea at the end probably works perhaps in the book better, because it is critizising the church and their view on gender equality. But this is not cinematic or at least the film is not able to establish this problem during the first 90 minutes to make this relevant for the storytelling. In my view this is a solid movie, which you really do not have to see.
As a Catholic, this review troubles me a little, and has further helped me decide to not support it. A lot of that decision has to do with that final "thing added on" (which, if it's the same as the book, is not something I want to support being down in depictions of the Church on screen). But now than that, I dislike this popular notion of the Cardinals thinking they are above sin. I trust Dan to be fair, so i assume that's the way it's portrayed in the movie, but the bishops that i have had the pleasure of meeting and hearing from are the first to talk about their own sins and failings. I won't deny there are bad apples - every institution has them, even though the Church should be even more on guard against certain types of predators. However, continuing this popular notion that all people in power are corrupt, especially when it comes to the Church, is not something I want to support. I love Ralph Fiennes and Stanley Tucci, and I hope they get some Oscar love, but I can't support this story.
Not sure why you called the ending a creative decision. It’s in the book. Was the movie supposed to skip that aspect?
It's a creative decision in telling the story, starting with the book and continuing with the movie.
Ok I see. I think in the book it was alluded to quite a bit (I read it) so it was not that shocking but I also found it a bit pointless, like it could have just ended without that info and it would have been fine.
The sad thing is, I haven’t even seen the movie and I was fully intrigued until the mentioned “twist”. I already knew what it is, and its the same twist any secular media is going to give a religious work. Its not thought provoking, its eye rolling. Its 2024, so its gonna be everyones first guess.
My issue with these films is the discussions they provoke are surface level drama intended for a non-believing audience. I enjoy propositions, but putting board-line atheistic worldviews on leading religious officials always comes off as unauthentic to me.
👍🏼❤
My neighbors 10 yr daughter was born intersex. her daughter appears female but has no ovaries and no uterus. She will never be pregnant, never have a menstrual cycle. Her mom hopes estrogen will allow her to at least have her body initiate puberty, but its unknown. She could end up a grown adult with the body shape of a pre-pubescent person forever. My neighbor was afraid, I would be afraid of my daughter being friends with her daughter. I told her no worries. Our children are good friends, and my daughter has learned that sometimes gender itself might not be typical.
In the movie Conclave, the cardinal who is intersex, has a different issue, his body appears male. He always assumed he was male, until in his 30’s an appendix removal surgery shocked him with the reveal that in addition to having fully functional male genitalia the Conclave movie character also had a uterus and ovaries (no fallopian tubes) in his torso. He never had breasts and did develop as a man.
From my own point of view, I thought this movie was FANTASTIC!
The Intersex birth defect where some genitalia fails to develop, and the individual presents as a single gender; or the more rare complicated situation. where a child is born with internal genitalia parts of both male and female, which may, or more likely, may not be fully present, is a challenge to explain.
My neighbor’s daughter underwent a full body scan upon turning 10, to make sure she did not have undeveloped male genitalia in her body. She thinks of herself as a girl, even though she is lacking, since birth, a uterus and ovaries. Physically, she biologically appears to be a 10yr female. Her Chromosomes are Xo. Part of one of her two X chromosomes broke and the two ends of the broken X portions bent and became joined to form a ring. She got lucky. The portion that broke off was small enough that she is still genetically female (XX) but with the additional broken-off “o” part.
If More had broken off, of that one X chromosome she would have developed as a Boy with (XY) genetics, and would have developed male genitalia, but may have been sterile.
The cardinal Character in ConClave is a characterization of the very Rare (Xo-XY) situation. He presents as male, his body developed as a male, he went through Male Puberty, but his body also had a uterus, and ovaries from birth without his knowledge or awareness, though the ovaries had no fallopian tube connection, he never ovulated, and no breasts ever developed. The point of the end of the movie is, he is, simply himself, and because of having his appendix removed in his 30’s, he then became aware that he is a male who also partially female. Technically he is partly both genders, which the character knows to be odd, but it is, this character’s reality, in the movie, and that should help the Character to have empathy and compassion as he follows the path ahead in his life.
I will be showing this movie to my 9yr daughter. I know what her reaction to the end will be.
(I.e., “Hey mom and dad”, “The cardinal guy in the end, is just like my friend, only older, with a different group missing or extra private parts, and he ended up looking male. Wow, I’m glad movies are acknowledging that people like my friend are real people.”). Then my daughter will just continue doing whatever she was doing, before the movie.
I think this is a great movie, to assist people in understanding that life is not binary. (Black/white, or good/bad, or Just Male/Just Female, … etc.,) People are complicated. Often the best people to lead, are people who do not desire leadership, but are capable when they need to lead, because they care that everyone survives, and they put others first.
It's not God, it's atrazine.*
Of course, that condition is no reason to deny anyone a job in any profession or vocation. Why would it? What sane person would discriminate against someone for their odd gender development? Unfortunately, in the real world I would lay money on the Catholic hierarchy demanding the person step down and immediately leave the clergy. Their own ingrained misogyny is not something the Church wants to confront, yet. Among other things.
In the novel by Robert Harris, all of this is slightly different (and less detailed) but the "core" is the same. There, - SPOILER - Benitez, born in a very poor background, thinks her (his? which pronoun should I use? sincerely, I do not know...) deformed genitalia are after all those of a man. Benitez thinks he/she is a man, he/she is brought up as a man, never has sex with anybody, enters the seminary where nobody asks certain questions. And as a priest first, bishop and then archbishop later, Benitez does a lot of laudable and courageous jobs, such as helping sex slaves and sheltering and protecting Christians from persecution and killings by extremists in the Middle East. I wish to think that Benitez is elected for such reasons.
As in the film, Benitez comes to know his/her condition after some surgery (had to be recovered in a hospital because wounded in a terroristic attack). Benitez said that he/she felt terribly shocked at the news, as if he/she has done something terribly wrong and sinful. The previous Pope (the one who dies at the beginning of the story) is informed, and leaves the decision on what to do to Benitez, who choices not to remove his/her female parts and to keep being archbishop of those tortured lands. Far from being disappointed by this choice, the Pope appoints Benitez as Cardinal "in pectore" - unknown to the others red hats. That's why he/she shows up in the film and in the book as "one who was not on the list".
I read the book. The ending sucked. Catholics should tear the screens down.
Or turn the other cheek like proper Christians?
Did the movie pull a St. Elsewhere on the audience?
I thought it was pretty obvious that cardinal who ascended to the Pontiff. The only question I had was how since he is seen kind of a nobody and background figure in the movie. Sure the movie tried portray the Cardinals with fault, especially those that saw the pontiff position. I thought the message was pretty straightforward and easy for audience to digest. Then came the wildcard twist at the end and I thought to myself are they gonna make the new Pontiff what I think they are and I was correct they did. I can see how kid that leave a big distaste on people but then again if you follow, any religious text Abraham religions I guess you are image of God therefore who are we to judge. I only wish the cardinal who has sent it to the Ponte. Could I have played a bigger role in the movie and kinda provided morality or no judgment to those who were seeking upon position and failed
The twist is leftwing nonsense. Shame. I was looking forward to seeing this movie.
Spoiler.
You do realise that even most right-wingers think that gender discrimination is something we should leave behind?
When I saw they framed it as this thriller and then said it was rated PG, I was out lol. I don't know if that's fair, but I was trying to figure out how much teeth this would have while maintaining that rating.
If the movie doesn't lose it's ability to make strong commentary and deal with difficult subjects without pushing the rating, then that might be a breath of fresh air.
My friend Paolo worked on this!!! #PaoloSquad
this looks boring AF
the Islamophobia is concerning
It's expressed by a character in the film who is consistently intolerant, and painted as backwards-thinking, and refuted by the only character in the movie who has first-hand experience living in an Islamic country. I don't believe the movie itself is Islamophobic, just as Schindler's List isn't antisemitic despite having characters who hold those beliefs. Context matters.
LOL
Tired of the these overly religious Oscar bait films
And gender bait