Starting the Monster Chiller (April 10, 2007)
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- At my old workplace, we spent all winter servicing the chillers on campus. This massive old Trane chiller in one of the older buildings is a beast, and waking it up in the spring is quite the ordeal! To tell you the truth, this thing scared the $#!+ out of me!
This is whats call a Centravac. It runs low pressure with R-11 or the new ones \R-123. This chiller is surginging because likely it's got a leak. It makes that sound because the impeller is slipping in the vapor compression because of too much lift. Amperage goes down too to show this. makes the motor shaft lift up 1-3 thousandths and ruins the effeciency.
That 3 phase start up sound makes me smile : )
I worked for an irrigation district that used pumps that were made in the early 1900's. They were huge and shaped like a large snail. The biggest used a 100 HP General Electric motor running on 440 VAC. One day I started the pump by pulling the handle on the control box. I just happened to be standing to the side when it exploded and shot the cover off. The cause was low level of coolant oil at the bottom of the contacts. There was no training at all. I quit that hell hole a year later.
love the sound of a chiller starting up definetly way louder than the new turbocores
It's so big, so loud, and so old - it sits on a suspended slab, and when it surges, the floor shakes. It's almost like an angry elephant on a rampage, and the squealing is so loud it's ear-splitting even through ear protection.
I guess its enormity is a little intimidating.
This was one of several start-up attempts over 4 days. We had to shut it back down when the surging became nearly constant. It's damn near impossible to purge all the air out of this thing after sitting all winter long.
low pressure trane. double ender is what the old guys call em. i know where a very, very old one sits. it's smaller, but it looks basically the same. been told they were some of the best ever built. tough as a tank.
Yep that's what we called them. This one's probably about a 500 ton 480 volt with a star Delta starter R11 unit
@@michaelmontanez948 970 tons, 4160VAC raw contact, R-22. I'm digging back 14 years into my memory at this point, it's a little painful...
The hourly cost of running one of these units is 500 dollars an hour. This guy sweating this start up is a rookie. he should try starting a steam turbine. Local 94 baby!!!
That looks like a 300 - 400 ton, R-11 or water type chiller? The largest I used to service was 300 ton. I've seen chillers up to 600 ton and that was a BEAST!!! Made my 300 ton'er look like a window-shaker AC unit in comparison.
I love that awesome start up sound at 1:23!
Thanks! Yes, It's a 10 storey 50,000 sq ft building of primarily offices, small auditorium-esque classrooms and medical science labs. The chillers are housed in the mechanical sub-basement level.
The "big black pipe" is (I believe) the condenser water return from the 3 cooling towers outside - either the return from or the supply to, honestly I can't remember, but the other of those two options can be seen directly above it.
Yep, this is the way they used to make centrifugal chillers, before Sulzer came up their multi-stage system. Multi-stage chillers are substantially quieter.
Good god that thing's huge. If it uses ammonia for the refrigerant I doubt I'd want to be in the same building as it... don't blame the guy for giving it legs :)
Trane Centravac..Good ole' R-11. I remember the Johnson T-8500 Capacity Controllers operating the Vanes, along with Mercoid PE switches to cycle them off and on
Yep, back when pneumatics were used
I had a CVHE surg every morning on start up. We never figured it out, Not even Trane . Once it warmed up that was it. Every chiller has a mind of its own sometimes.
this chiller makes the 250 ton chillers I work on look like chop sticks! That's a beast of a chiller!
I have absolutely no idea... sorry. It was built in the 1960s, and from what I remember, there was a 12,5KV || 4,160V transformer into a 4,160V switchgear with a massive contactor... that contactor fed the motor control circuit (big grey box on the left at the beginning) and a power meter. Now, it does have network control, which brings all the associated pumps online (you can hear at 0:12) before the unit starts, if that gives you any idea... I haven't been there in over 2 years now.
All the pumps are turned on first right ? to get the water moving
Not starting the pumps before starting the chiller and cause damage to the unit. If water is not flowing over the evaporator. That can potentially cause the evaporator to freeze. if you don't have condenser water from the cooling tower flowing over the condenser part of the chiller. That can cause an overheat situations so you always start the pumps first
Yeah, these things aren't quiet by any means. When this pig was running, I couldn't be in that half of the mechanical room without earplugs - the scream was overwhelming!
This unit is 970 tons, R-11 built in 1964.
When she surges (you can hear it start to at 2:17 in the video) the floor would shake and you'd think the world was coming to an end!
Thanks for watching; glad you enjoyed it.
Noisy sob that's for sure... In listening to it a few times, I guess it is an ATL start unit. Thanks for the interesting post!
Hughes plant in El Segundo had 6 of these in central plant for the whole facility. One compressor would normally be enough during cool weather. Huge water towers outdoors. The system was installed around 1979. Do not know if it is still there. One day someone decided he would run one of the variable speed water pumps to full speed. There was a screech, a little smoke and all of the power shut down. Of course the phones lit up when the lab areas started calling in!
@theduke502 Yes, it is a chiller for water. The cold water it produces is used for cooling A/C in a building air handler.
@W7ENK Watts is simply Volts x Amps, 60A x 4,160V = 249,600 Watts : )
@R3MUS2007 Of course, we were wearing earplugs. Without them, it was painful as soon as the elevator doors opened to the mechanical room!
i've only installed the electrical for these machines. but it seems to me if there is that much air in the system they need to install more purge valves at various high points in the system and bleed it. the cavitation alone will destroy it along with all the pumps. 4 attempts is a bit much!
Thanks for the vid, damn that things huge!
You're correct in that the Chiller uses R-22 to chill a closed water loop that is fed through the building's air handling system for cooling. There is also a condenser water loop that is used to absorb the heat pulled from the building (return) and is sent outside to a cooling tower for dissipation to the air.
I drew up a diagram for you, but apparently I cannont link it or reference it or even post it's location. :(
@W7ENK More specifically it's a cross between a condenser and an indoor coil. The long tube at the bottom is the heat exchanger. It has 2 chambers inside. A hot side and a cold side. The cold side supplies chilled water. The hot side sends the heat removed from the water up to a cooling tower of equal tonnage.
Gave me the chills.....
I don't know how many MW this thing would produce. The heat was all expelled to cooling towers outside. We didn't run them in the winter for heating.
As I read these comments and hear the operation, I'm forced to ask two questions: When was the last "full" leak check done on this machine and what are the hours and starts since last rebuild? This unit is surging due to air is my guess, therefore it really needs some help along with new R-11. Plus, you might want to leave the purge on during the winter if the leaks have become to extensive to repair. Plus, if this is a 70's or previous machine it's costing more money to run than replace.
She does that every spring. She doesn't like being awakened after a long winter... tempermental!
I decided to do a little bit of searching, and it looks like this only a problem on centrifugal compressors because they are not positive displacement
So the difference between the condenser and evaporator would be a wash providing your machine is running at optimum performance ie no scale in tubes.
that is a big chiller. How many tons?
I use to work on a few of them. There are not a lot left and yours looks to be in Great Shape. They just removed 2 from a site the we took care of, they were using river water for the condenser.
@PlaceBoInternational First of all its not an engine ! Its called an 3 phase induction motor and most 3 phase motors make that sound when on start up.
I don't know all the specifics, esp since I haven't worked at this place for almost 2 years now, but from what I remember about this machine, it uses R-22 (I mis-spoke in one of my comments and said R-11).
This machine is so old that it needs a LOT of love every year. The purge pump is too small (in my opinion) and cannot keep up with all the leaks, even tho we practically coated the entire thing with sealer every year.
Being so old, big and leaky, starting it was always a challenge!
Nope you were right... it is R-11
R22 is always at a positive pressure, would not have air leak in and would not need a purge Thus, most likely R11
@codsixrules Being that it's three phase, it's also times the square root of three, and being alternating current you arrive at the figure for volt amperes (432,320 va). That times the power factor- which is probably around 90 percent for motor that large- means the watts are 389kw. Divide by 746 (watts per hp) and multiply times a guess at efficiency- at least 95%- and you have 521 hp. Motors come in standard sizes of 500 and 600 hp, so this one looks like it's 500 hp. as ham W7ENK said...
dam thats loud ! i love it
short answer yes and no.
the vessel cant because they have pressure relief valves.
but the motors can, its called a burn out.
I see that it has the purfier purge on it. That helps keep the charge in.
@joey8067
The two huge rotor chamber in the video make up the compressor. The motor sits right in the middle.
That noise is surging, the operator prolly ran to put the tower fans in auto, Hehehe
Oh, I knew who you were talking to there, I was just clarifying for the both of you.
And, yes, she was a real pig! I'm glad I don't have to service her anymore. I hated punching tubes anyway, and she had a LOT of them!!!
MODEL LCV
I work on this same model 850 lbs of r 22 start up sounded like a jet engine ramp up great sounds miss it retired
water cooled how much kilowatt cooling capacity very nice greetings from the e.u.
It also looks to be around a 1965 vintage, I can't see the control panel.
I spent many years servicing and rebuilding these old " sidewinder chillers. Enjoyed hearing that start up again cdalep
This is a double ender sidewinders are different
where's the purge pump? I don't see it. What kind of service do you perfrom on your chillers. Major or minor? do you tear it down, service vanes, impeller, bearings and seals?
Are you required to do annual refrigearant audits from the state?
is this @ UIUC? They have something similar Id imagine, dug up whole streets for some large pipes for it.
As it was explained to me, surging happens when the temperature difference between the evaporator and condenser gets too high, or if there's air in the refrigerant circuit, both of which can cause a sudden shift in pressure. That loud squeal is from the refrigerant "surging" in reverse through the impeller because of that pressure change.
Maybe someone else reading this could explain it better?
Surging occurs when the pressure differential becomes too great between the suction and the discharge.
At that point the high pressure blows back into the low pressure side
actually its a cvhb 1100{benchgrinder} from what i can see and its probably a wye delta.starter, and from the sound of it either it has air in it or the condenser water is really hot. ive rebuilt more of those than i care to count lol!!
We called them coffee grinders
@@wildtill9 ive never heard them called that lol .
@W7ENK LOL, it's okay. I find large equipment like that pretty fascinating. What is even more fascinating is watching crane operators setting large equipment on top of tall buildings. Talk about getting goosebumps, lol.
That thing is bad ass
@TorchwoodElectrics Its not a generator did you real the video ? its a chiller
@WoodDaive Thanks for the clarification Dave. I figured it would be something like that. That would make far more sense and product little if any humidity :)
I'd hate to have to do a service call on that beast!
No. By steam turbine I mean they have a turbine powered by steam that runs the compressor on the chillers. They have an absorber as well but the four others are huge centrifugal chillers
o startup parece a turbina de um avião,esse e um daqueles grandes desafios da refrigeração
Who do the S&T units for such monster ? Trane by themselves or other oem ?
Why did it surge? Loaded up too soon? Held it on manual? That chiller is humongous!
I think that Chiller around 1500TR-2000TR.
Does it use HV starter?
This must be what they had behind that DO NOT ENTER door at the old supermarkets. It would growl and shake the floor like that.
@W7ENK
500hp, give or take a bit. That's about 250kw/hr, or maybe $10-$45/hr depending on the billing structure.
I think you're referring to the wind-up sound at 0:12? That would be the condenser water pump starting up.
If you mean at 1:23, that's the main 4160 Volt motor on the chiller's condenser unit.
Holy cow, was that just a raw contractor start?! No soft start or delta wye?
I believe so, yes. 4160V, installed in the early 1960s.
April 2007 was a long, long time ago!
bluecollarboiler: wow, lots of tonage! what kind of facility do you work at?
hate to say it but the univserity of wisconsin has chillers that DWARF that. their steam turbine chillers are probably double that size at the charter plant
cool
what a beast
@W7ENK Hm interesting. I used to wonder what kind of A/C unit large businesses use. I imagine that the water goes to a de-humidifier process to separate moisture from the water no?
I don't know what the guys do as far as inspections on these things. Honestly, I was just the monkey that had punch the tubes! I hate punching tubes!!! GOD, it's so boring - no pun intended.
Besides, I don't work there anymore.
Glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.
It's basically like a giant air conditioner... more accurately, a giant compressor for an air conditioner.
A very large one, yes.
why would that scare the shit out of anyone? sounds like a normal start up.
Union Chiller Service Fitter.......... For all that are wondering.... And, yes I love 123... lol
i agree mate.. carrier don't use r123 ..death gas
@theduke502 Big chillers like this use the same refrigeration cycle (on a much larger scale) that any other AC or refrigerator would.
that's a baby chiller we have 8000 York tons units we i work.
Good lord...listen to her surge!
I don't work there anymore, haven't for over 2 years. I don't remember, and have lost contact with the guys there that would know about this machine. I was told it uses R-22 by one of the techs. If not, then I have no idea what it uses. I was just there to punch tubes and assist with bringing these things online in the spring. I'm not an expert at these things, but I posted this video because it was a big noisy machine that I found interesting. I had no idea it would cause such controversy.
1:22 for music
Is this an ATL Start or a soft start?
Running a machine while it surges like that is not too smart. If its short of refrigerant due to a leak, even less smart, but probably NOT the reason it is surging.Check your tower temps, much more likely that they are set for too low a temperature....that or you don't have enough load to run the machine (assuming there is no hot gas bypass)...and mudbone...I hear you!
whats the hp on that ? i love that 3 phase start up sound !
but can you see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
@markstanley260 As far as I know, this chiller is still in service. It was as of summer 2008, and there were no plans to replace it. I no longer work for this company.
@W7ENK That is almost 333kW (60*4160*1.33). But that is its maximum draw most likely. Either way its using allot of juice.
I am here saying hello
Is it possible to list the Mod# of this unit to clear up all the speculation on this unit?
R-12: In the US, no larger than 320 tons... Not large!!!! As for R-12 high pressure, does not have purge.... This one does... Plus, all of the R-12 machines in the US are air cooled... Do you think this is an air-cooled machine????
where is the compressor? does it use gas or wat
Heh, it looks like a ginormous turbocharger... and, well, kinda sounds like one too :D
@W7ENK How do these things work? Is this a water chiller?
What voltage, 4160, 13.2?
Also known as a "bench ginder". I'm sorry if others are upset about the discussion going on. I have a habbit of getting upset when people try to make claims that are inaccurate without any facts (mod# or ser#) to back up. Especially, when my expertise is called into question. I'm not trying to say I know everything, anyone in service that is decent knows this is impossible. Hope all of the reasonable people viewing this understand.
@theduke502 I couldn't tell you on specifics like that, I have no idea. I'd imagine it would?
500 ton unit?
can you tell what size is this baby?
not long enough, I wish the first bit lasted for 10 - 15 minutes.....
you able to get a video of it?