@@13Disciple Yeah youre busy deleting the replys that says that youre no more than a Wargamming puppet. And that all your arguments are no more than a lot of nonsense.
@@AngelMartinez-uh8lk lol wut. How would a replay even have evidence? I will gladly send you all of mine for this year if you want that sort of thing hahaha
I never had an issue with HE spam, I don't see why it was a problem. I very rarely ran into people spamming HE at me. Aimed AP/APCR or HEAT does more damage if used skillfully.
I love how you systematically approach this kind of debate, this really changed my mindset a lot. On this topic though, I think WG should rework the premium shells and armors before this HE changes. With the HE changed but not others, players are forced to use premium shells against hard armors in bad conditions (e.g. Maus in Ensk)
@@Eshelion Why? Why all tanks must have weak spots in the front? In real life, you cannot ask a manufacturer to make a tank with weak spots. lol. You could argue that WG must balance maps, to have fewer corridor maps. That is ok, but then, again, in real life, you may find yourself in a corridor...and you will lose. That is life. But maybe we don't want a game to be like real life... I don't know
@@danielstoica3489 Because it is a game and for the playability they should have frontal weak spots. Otherwise tank without frontal weak spot > tank with such weak spot of the same class + boring campy gameplay if you can't dig such tank out of his place (imagine end game with one such perfectly positioned camper and not enough time to cap the base - you have lost by default unless you have substantial numbers advantage) - and this game rewards campy gameplay too much already. Ofc maybe WG could redesign maps to make flanking easier (more smaller passages), but that is waaaay more work to. And if you would like it to be like rl - in rl tanks doesn't hit dirt on distance below 50m, in real life no one is aiming for hatches, in real life composite armor and different materials are a thing (in this game only angle of armor is taken into calculations), in rl blueprint tanks are worse than real ones (there are solid reasons why they didn't make career), in rl some tanks never met against each other as well, as didn't fight alongside some of them), in rl tanks don't fight alone, in rl one penetrating shot is enough to destroy enemy tank and so on, and on. There are reasons why some tanks are way better than others and one of them is lack of frontal weak spots.
One thing I must bring up - removing the splash damage from HE is an issue. Before, you could use HE to fire under a vehicle and do a bit more damage to it. That took skill and was a cool mechanic. Now you cannot do that. IMHO splash should come back.
When I first started playing 9 years ago, the KV-2 was the first tank that made me feel like a threat on the field. As you nodded at, there were so many elements and nuances to learn all at once and the game didn't explain them well at all. (There were also less UA-camrs like you to break it all down). These days I only use the KV-2 when I've had a frustrating session on 8-10 tier games, and I want to just have a little bit of gambling fun to calm down. By this, I mean the 3d100 that is dispersion/penetration/dmg RNG. Your FOO explanation changed my mind on the HE changes, and I agree that the derp guns need a conciderable improvement to accuracy if hitting a specific area is more important now (especially given the sacrifices derp tanks accept in trade). I appreciate you explaining how fixing core loops highlights other loops that need to be addressed. But, where I think the playerbase will still feel exasperated is in how (historically) long it takes war gaming to address each of these next issues. Often times they'll even seemingly ignore 'difficult' issues like fixing maps or making new ones, in lieu of 'simple' fixes like changing the turret traverse speed on X tank by 0.6%
A few months ago I remember getting Sand River in my VK75.01K and heading into the middle ditch to try to sidescrape. I got to the corner, turned my tank so I was perfectly angled, and starting peeking only to be immediately BRAPP'd by a rhm firing HE at my turret, splashing the engine deck for over 500 dmg. I remember this so vividly because I dont think I've ever been more angry and frustrated at a game, and this was before the HE changes had even been announced. What was the point of playing a rear-turreted heavy tank that sacrificed speed, gun depression, and DPM if all of that extra niche armor was completely negated by somebody just spamming HE? That event seriously highlighted the devaluation of armor in the game and really soured my attitude towards playing heavies. Changes were absolutely needed and overall I am happy with what WG introduced.
I(key emphasis) find it best to never, under any circumstance, head into the middle ditch. No arty, so what. They don't have a heavy tank, so what. In a heavy, you can be outspotted by any medium/light from the hills. It's low ground with no value and you can be shot from many angles. Also, both sides of trench are easily defendable.
But what if WG never changes reward and overpowered hulldown tanks? And the corridor maps don’t allow you to use terrain/mobility to outplay your opponents with also arty not being effective, how will you ever counter those tanks that WG will never nerf to not make their most loyal and often good paying customers upset?
That's a problem of map design, HE and Prem rounds were a bandaid to those issues, Unlike infantry FPS games, armor meant you needed high pen to do damage, vs doing damage no matter where you hit.vBoth HE and maps/armor needed to be fixed together, but fixing maps takes way more time.
Every time WOT makes an impactful change the reaction is the same. The player force either complains, shrug their shoulders or have a blank look. In a couple of weeks it all over and the game continues. Humans adapt, we are the supreme adapters of the universe! Now if and when those folks who camp eventually push forward at the games start then strategy takes over and teamwork wins regardless of how big a tank might be.
One of the core issues is server culture what I mean is each server plays differently based on regional differences in humans so things like team work where a HE derp may be useful for tracking then having 3 to 5 other tanks attack the tracked tank and the derp tank getting assistance damage few tankers will take advantage of it.
I play WoT from beta, and I think the HE shell nerf, will only encourage the usage of "gold" ammo. Also, KV2 must have its accuracy buffed. It's nearly unplayable now. And what about KV2R? People paid real money to buy it. Should they get their money back?
I argue at 11:38, that yes, the accuracy of "derp" tanks needs improvement. As for prem shells.... This is precisely (in my opinion) the biggest problem the core gameplay loop now faces. Unless your target has incredibly thin armor... The current state of "Damage Focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices, regular and extra penetration. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. The differences between AP/APCR/HEAT are small in comparison to the penetration difference of regular and premium ammunition. Maybe this exact loop should be my next couple videos...
I just played 10 games in the derpy mcderp kv2 and could not get the damn gun to hit anything. Except for one light tank which I evaporated into thin air. Which is why I can not convince myself to stop.
"they must choose the appropriate ammunition to damage the enemy"....... I would completely agree with you..... but this is not what people do.... and HE isn't what made the damage loop broken/unecessary. APCR did.... The APCR shell didn't give up *anything* outside of shelling out credits. (used to be called "gold spam"). While HE is certainly used more often /now/, it's not nearly as broken as the 300+mm pen shells at tier 6-8 doing the damage of AP shells. HE shell damage is extremely unreliable. Almost as random as a dice-roll in D&D. Sure you may hit some critical hit once in a blue moon, but the APCR shells they give out like candy to the players with a crap-ton of credits, makes the concept of 'use these shells in this situation' concept completely wrecked. HE shells are great for removing a hulldown'd enemy staring you down. Your mentality here is literally a situation of "perfect interaction or bust" issue. 'studying' a target's armor models would have been *great*.... if they didn't ruin armor models by removing key weaknesses where normal shells could be helpful (like removing machinegun ports as weak spots and in turn placing a gigantic plate of armor. T29 used to be a huge challenge, til you shoot the big tumor of an MG port on the front of its hull.... but now you just smack it anywhere on the hull with APCR and you're pretty much golden.) I like the concept of the mental loops. but this is rather....biased towards the concept that HE shells are the problem-child while the premium shell completely rakes the armor model across the coals in favor of paying out a ridiculous amount of credits to "buy skill shots" that can do crazy damage through max armor values without requiring skill of the player... Edit: I'd add HEAT to this situation, but their changes to spaced armor have helped mitigate that problem...
This all sound nice and reasonable in theory and in vacuum. Than you realise that we are talking about game that have 3 types of ammo. You shoot your standard and if you pen you just continue. If you do not pen you try to aim at weak spots. If tank that you shoot at does not have weak spots than you shoot HE to do at least some damage since it will be better than nothing. Of course if you are P2W player you can just load in premium ammo and you just pen. So really what this changed is that more players will just use premium ammo. Now with the highsight I can tell that while you previously met HE spammer 1 in 10 games now you have 1 premium spammer in each game
Sorry, but this is BS. Why would they address HE as a skill band aide and not address the spamming of premium rounds? If you try to stop and aim for little weeks spots with a derp tank, like a KV-2, you’re going to get annihilated.
One does not rule out the other, but as was seen last year, doing everything at once overwhelmed players that couldn’t handle the changes, as well as balance issues if too much happen at once. So yes, why do one change now and another later, because doing changes incrementally is much easier then doing everything at once. But from this patch people seem to think that just because HE and arty was changed now, no other changes will be done.
Your basic premise that HE shells interrupted the practice by making armor knowledge unnecessary is wrong. If HE cannot penetrate, it causes much less damage, based on the depth of penetration and the amount of HE. That's exactly what happens in real life... If you were facing a KV-2 152mm derp gun in a heavily armored tank, you know you would survive with minimum damage. Not so now. The odds now are that you will take VERY little to no damage. The KV-2 WAS balanced by its poor accuracy, poor armor, very slow reload and poor maneuverability, now it's dead meat on the battlefield.
Here’s the problem… I’ve had multiple HE rounds do 0 dmg now, even when aimed at weaker spots from lower caliber guns. And this essentially makes light tank HE virtually useless against heavies and some td’s. WG doesn’t nerf premium tanks and since they refuse to adapt the MM to balance 279e’s, Chieftains, etc they will always be a problem. ‘Surrender a flank’ - yeah, sounds like a strategy for success to just forfeit an entire chunk of the map. That’s not map control that’s a recipe for defeat. It’s not just the two tanks you mention.. tanks like the IS7, 705A, etc are basically impenetrable and/or essentially undamageable now when hull down. And removing the ability to shoot and splash the undercarriage is no longer an option. While I’ll love being able to sit hull down in my IS7 and not worry, this is too extreme and a detriment to the game. Do people spam HE due to a lack of skill/knowledge? Sure, of course some do. Do good players fire HE due to the imbalance of tanks in the game? Absolutely. Not to mention this makes it impossible to be free-to-play at higher tiers, which hate to break it to WG is still the majority of their player base.
And funnily enough, they got a similar nerf that decreased their damage so heavily that they are completely useless. Literally no one uses grenade launchers in CoD. (Okay, technically I have a grenade launcher on one of my MW classes, but it's strictly used for support - it's a smoke launcher)
Trusting one of your allies to deal with a hull down S conq when u can't is not a gamer move And yes, i agree, the HE nerfs make other problems so much more obvious and ridiculous But nerfing HE was and should not have been a priority. Fixing the actual problems was and still is. If tanks had actual weakspots, HE would just become another shell type only derp guns can use effectively. If something like an s conq would have an overmatchable cupola (~30mm not 60), HE would give you a flat out dpm nerf since you can pen your AP or APCR with ease (ignore the rng for now). Everyone (or at least HTs in a brawl) would be able to pen eachother. Someone spamming HE would give up a ton of dpm (at the very least half of it) at the cost of requiring no skill. I'ts a tradeoff. Another huge problem with the game is the our lord and saviour, the RNG (rigged number generator, thats how it feels like). Lets take as an example a tank with a big, inaccurate/unreliable gun, our friend 60tp (pre 1.13). 950 HE alpha, 90mm of pen, 750 AP and HEAT alpha, 250 and 317 pen respectively, both are decent and reasonably adequate against most targets. Now lets pick a target, S Conq just for convenience. Hull down, u cant pen it with ap, the turret ring is 305mm thick (or 12"), you need an especially high ap pen roll to go thru it and the cupola apart from a very very thin 89mm thick plate, its an autobounce. A good player will know to load HEAT. It can pen the turret ring 60-75% of the time, it can pen the cupola at any angle you can see it at and with a bit of luck, the turret sides just left and right of the gun. And know here comes the problem. How often will you hit them (and lets say the 60tp player has perfect marksmanship and fully aims the shells)? Turret ring is tiny, so are the turret sides where there is no spaced armor. Shots can and will go into the mantlet, hit the gun, the spaced armor on the upper plate or anywhere on the turret and do no dmg. 60tp has .38 base accuracy, with the crew skill buff the commander gives and other stuff you want to add on, it goes to .36. At 100m you are looking an aiming circle about 2/3 the size of the s conq. With all that in mind, how often will you be able to hit the said weakspots? 20% of the time? Maybe 40 if rng is on your side? With a rammer you are looking at just an under 17 seconds reload, almost 2.7k dpm, not bad for such a big gun. 20% of that is 540, not even 1 hit a minute. Ok, thats maybe a bit pessimistic, lets take the 40%. Just over 1k dpm... At this phase it will take you over 2 and a half minutes of continuous firing to kill him. At that point better double tap f, reverse and go find something else to do, thats just a waste of time. Now lets take the HE, with lets say, 370 averge dmg (you may hit somewhere close to the gun for more spash on the deck or for less if you hit the spaced armor) and lets say you hit 66-85% of your shots For 66% you have 900, not rly all that good and for 85 just over 1150. Thats a 15% dmg increase over the heat, you can also do a lot more module dmg or even splash other tanks if they are close enough but most importantly, its the best tactical play if you have no other option that fighting. Maybe your meds are bad players and lost the other side of the map and your only option is to push, but you cant bcz they have TD support, there are many scenarios. Guys, dont forget, a big gun has to trade a lot of things to get high alpha, gun handling, reload, dpm, pen, flexibility or even armor (in the case of the Grille) and only those guns are big enough to do any significant dmg in 1 hit. Yes lower caliber guns like 122-130mm guns were able to do about 120-200 dmg with better reliability and accuracy, but they still did half the dmg for not that much shorter reload (10 seconds, 180 average for a 122 and 16-17 reload and ~350 for a 150-155, twice the dmg but less than half the reload). And about killing low HP targets, take this as an example: played my E75 the other day and i had to kill a hull down T95 on low HP. I bounce 2 AP shells off its cupola (180mm thick nice balance) and then my third shell was an HE. I hit the same spot (the cupola). He had about 70 hp? I did 38... On a cupola hit... Pre 1.13 that should and would have been a kill, but no, you cant splash HE anymore, so you have to pen all that raw armor with HE. And now for my final point, what about mid tier derp guns? 1.13 made them almost useless, way less fun and just boring to play. That was probably the only way some players had fun in this game, and now bcz of some high tier "problems", all of them are dead (except the low tier ones that actually needed nerfs, they still can easily pen tanks with HE and bcz the armor is so thin, splash dmg was not helping almost at all). And what about the KV-2r? a 50$ tank ppl paid for, just to get nerfed into the ground later. Ans unlike the KV-2, it doesnt even have the option of a mediocre but hard hitting 107 For sweaty meta^tm tryhard players 1.13 was a huge success bcz they dont play nor care about derps, but for casuals it was a huge hit. I consider myself to be on the line between casual and tryhard, i will not min max my tank, i will not play bad tanks (unless they are meme worthy), but in battle i will try my best to win with whatever i have. 1.13 ruined a good chunk of fun i was able to have in the game, like the KV-2 or the Sherman III. Ans at the end of the day, whats the point of a game? Try your best to win a game, get high number battles, become frustrated when u cant reach your goals bcz the teams are so bad? Or just have fun? Idk, thats up to you
I appreciate you going all John Boyd on this to offer a fresh perspective! You seem to be saying that WoT is actually harder than it appears or at least it was intended to be. While you can certainly learn positional tactics by playing, the trouble is you really can’t learn weak spots by playing. That seems to require spending hours on Armor Inspector instead of playing. Maybe you could explain how you expect players to learn weak spots?
What? Weak spots are easy. Usually lower plate, cupola, any flat armor (for heat). That is it. I know, there are a couple tanks that don't have this, or they have other weak spot locations, but there are so few of them, that you can learn them quite easily. And you have the aid of the reticle that turns green.
Some years ago the aim indicator was changed to show Green (pen) Yellow(maybe) Red(lol no) based on Line-of-sight armor thickness instead of just raw armor thickness, so wiggling your aim over the tank's hitbox will tell you where your gun can pen. If its all Red and Yellow, you're shit outta luck.
The HE did not needed rework at all, especially not this drastically. It rendered several tanks, who do not even have choice of shells, useless. Take the Sau40 of their weekly showdown that "struggled" using their own words. The top gun has HE or HEAT. Facing higher tiered vehicles such at an AT2 or T150, which does happen, you can't do a thing as you lack mobility. HE, as it should, was a scare tactic. You can argue about how much damage it should do, but in this situation it could not do anything. It has not the accuracy to hit weak points that are disappearing more and more in this game. Even HEAT with more pen could not do much either. It definitely does not have the mobility to retreat or flank. So in this situation all you can do is give up basically and die. I've also had KV-2 HE fully absorbed in my lower tier medium tanks tracks. A 152mm shot should always do damage. The damage was already depended if you hit a strong spot or penetrate a weak spot. You won't be able to convince many that a 152mm exploding HE shell would not do any damage. Aside that argument. Yes you have newer and lesser skilled players HE-spam, which honestly never was that pertinent of a problem (heavy armorerd tanks can also reposition from sidescraping). But these changes will only drive newer players away from the game. As you fairly pointed out the accuracy is one frustration and there is no system for that in place. WG has wrong priorities.
Am I the only one who never had a problem with HE spam? How hard was it to just get out of the way of a HE spam. Like "WOW. That guys has shot me with HE 6 times in a row while I've been hulldown here, maybe I should fucking move?" Honestly if you got HE spammed before it was your own damn fault for poor positioning and bad decision making. No one was forcing you to sit there and take it.
I mean if you were playing a super heavy and actually in a proper position and then some rando E100, 60TP, Type 5 etc comes up and keeps derping into your angled armor for 350, it's a major issue. Just like what he stated in the game, those tanks give up almost everything to have armor and if you are playing it correct and still dying in a couple minutes because of HE spam, it's a core issue that needed to be fixed which WG has done. Even if the 279/Chief perform better now, I don't care. If anything it opens up the door for WG to address them with nerfs in the future since they will be forced to.
@@TheSeattleGamer what part of get out of the way don't you understand? If you're hitting and penning shots against said derping heavy, and staying the hell out of its line of fire between shots, you should be able to win. As I said, no one is forcing you to take HE spam to the face, back off and change your own tactics. AS for nerfing the OP reward tanks, Wargaming has already stated that they will never nerf those tanks. EVER. So don't hold your breath on those changes.
@@echo_9835 A tier 10 tank getting hit by a derp gun for 350 every 15-20 seconds would result in them dying after 2-3 minutes. It takes them more time than that to make decisions. I've never had a problem with HE either, but then again I also think this HE nerf was fucking stupid in nearly every way.
@@TheSeattleGamer if it was a major issue, why did literally NO ONE ever ran fucking spall liner? I ran one on most of my heavies, although it was against artillery, never had a problem with HE, not on my heavies, not other tanks. And no, I'm didn't own a single heavy HE gun aside t49. Now you can't do a single thing about hull down monsters, and with the artillery nerfed they get to dominate everything even harder than before... And that's just the same tier balance, I won't even start on how much more impossible it got to grind out stock tanks fighting higher tiers now... Who are even stronger now due to field modifications that make the power disparity even worse. But hey, more gold spam and free exp buying for wg, great! Well, unless people quit, like I did, and many ARE leaving.
U almost had me convinced not gonna lie. Great points in the video. But then I tried actually playing the game today. I gotta disagree with u man, HE and derp guns are pretty much unusable now from my experience.
18Disciple Base recaps don't work with HE anymore, as HE no longer does damage on all hits. Quit buying the lie that HE was "fixed". HE now bounces or hits for no damage now. HE only causes damage to tracks if it can penetrate the drive sprocket.
The HE rework is WG pushing more players to spam prem shells. I've seen so many twitch and you tube channels where players ONLY have prem ammo for tanks. I feel this is an attack by WG to make players use the more expensive shells... and to buy these players will need to invest in prem tanks and prem accounts. The other night I got hit by a standard shell, I was so surprised I took a screenshot and posted it on discord. WG needs to fix the prem round spam next, and make HE derps great again.
You see, the problem was that HE is cheap, and spamming is easy. Spamming gold is a problem, but fewer players spam gold because is expensive. And they buy premium time and premium tanks to compensate, I know. WG is making money. But that does not mean they should bring back HE dmg. They should balance gold too.
No, not changed my mind, its just a lot of nonsense. First must be changed the corridor maps, the no weakspot af the tanks and the Premium tanks overpowered, and THEN they can talk about the HE. You seems just a WOT aspirant to employee of the month.
So i do agree with the HE changes for Lights, meds, TDs, and Heavies. But makes no since for ARTY's the fact that long reloads, terrible accuracy, and long slow shell travel times, and now 400-500 dpm at best says a big F@#k you to 20% of the community.
For derp tanks the changes could drive player education and skill improvement, but this is NOT a factor with artillery players. Arty is entirely limited by rng and cannot use armor models or weak points at all. All they see is their game enjoyment decreasing with no opportunity at all to change that, unless WG decides to undo tbeir previous artillery nerf of greatly increased rng. People complain artillery is a low skill tank class - this is entirely due to the game mechanics/rng taking away most of the effect of using skill. Whether you hit a fully aimed in stationary target is a random throw of the dice. No skill needed or required, just click after click. Unless WG can find some way to change that, 1/5 of their player base is going to start looking elsewhere for enjoyable gaming.
So TRUE! But this is not only for arty. It happened many times to me that perfectly aimed shoots are deviated a lot or simply disappearing. So no matter how much one struggles to hit a weak spot it's the game who decides what happens. This gives no incentive for the players to try to get better. Just spam expensive ammunition(wallet warriors) or use high explosives. This game becomes more pay2win with each update.
I'm new to your channel (only seen your credits vid) so my opinion might be different to your usual viewer. Just saying. So, first of all. I really like the fact that you actually understand game design. A lot of people in the WoT community have very little knowlage of game design in general so many proposals for changes that are coming from said community might not achieve expected results. Sometimes people jump to easy conclusions. Remove arty, remove gold, nerf this, buff that... when actually the cause of the problem might be something entirely else. Me personally, I don't mind the HE changes. For years I always used HE on poorly armored TD's and to kill 1% HP opponets. That's it. Nothing changed for me here. Many people are agaist it and I understand how it's better to deal 300 dmg to a hull down Conqueror instead of 100 dmg but at the same time, someone sidescraping in the 705 getting hit by HE for 400 dmg is just really stupid. The only personal problem with HE I had was when pre-nerf Type 5 Heavy was spamming everyone for 500 with gold HE. Bringing back pre-1.13 HE is not going to fix broken, boring hull down meta that this game has become. People need to find the real solution to the issue. I'm happy there is someone like you in the community that I'm feeling is competent enough to accurately address problems and propose possible solutions. When talking about gold spam for example, we have to understand why this problem occured in the first place. I recently came back to the game after many years. I think I used to play in or prior to 2016 and now I came back in 2020/2021. Game has changed a lot and I noticed it's way harder for me to achieve 2400/2500 wn8 like before. Before I wasn't even trying. I was just playing the game, using standard ammo for the most part. Now I'm playing and I'm like damn, what can I do here, how am I supposed to kill that guy. I'm thinking, I probalby should load gold for that, I need gold for this, I would be better off with gold for that guy, and so on. I think armor is way to strong in the current meta. In my opinion this creates a paradox. Armor is stronger so you're more survivable but at the same time more people are now willing to fire gold so you also become weaker in certain situations. That's besides powercreep of course. I remember T-62A to have a strong turret. More or less. Nowadays it's just dmg farm for HEAT rounds. Like holy crap, one of the strongest mediums back in the day now has 45% WR. We reached a point where almost every line needs a buff. Many people say how it's because WG wants everyone to lose credits. I don't agree with that. If so, then why would they allow players to earn boosters or even tier VIII premiums (marathons and referral programs). Clan boosts? I remember back in the day there was a subset of players that was more or less avarage skill wise. 48%/49% I'd say. They wanted HT's to have better armor because their idea of a heavy tank was an indestructible bunker that just go straight forward. Now we have overbuffed armor and what? It's better now? Everyone fires gold. Back in the day, it was not that important for you to fire gold because you actually could hit weakspots. Nowadays you sometimes need gold for that even. Of course you was always better of with gold but less people felt the need to use it. I was never shooting gold. Now I do all the time. Of course, don't get me wrong. I'm not defending WG here, they're at fault for many things. I just don't personaly believe powercreep was motivated by money. Black Market is meant to drain people's credits. Not gold. In my opinion of course. So yeah, this game is such a complex ecosystem... I don't think it's all black and white. I think we have to be wiser when coming with potential changes for this game. I know this was a very rambling comment and I'm sorry for that but I'm not sure how to address my thoughts differently. I'm sure there are more people that think like me.
this is as usual excellent and stretches the cognizance of the World of Tanks general player base. Like the game itself those that it get appreciate it and benefit and those who don't complain and blame.
Was it? I didn't think it was. I'd be surprised if they were even able to represent 2 different game mechanics for the same shell type only differentiated by mode.
What an amazing video. Thanks for sharing your opinion on the changes. Just for the history I agree with you. I can't understand however what does this video have so many dislikes :-/
I find this both fascinating and hilarious. Players moaning about HE and artillery again. Both exist in the real world. Where are the similar complaints against the use of GOLD ammo. Nothing similar exists outside the game yet it is accepted (and cherished by a lot of Tier X warriors). Wargaming really need to decide whether they want WOT to be a simulation of tank warfare or an arcade game.
Artillery isn't actually used against armored vehicles. Also APCR and HEAT exist, APCR is a "sabot" round but somehow modified to fit WG's description.
Great video. Bad news is 80% of the currently player base is the break in the loop as they fail to make any effort to learn. Also, less HE=more prem rounds… more cash for WoT
We know why the HE changes were coming in from when they were proposed. It is Russian server players in Chieftains and Object 279Es complaining that they were being shot by Polish heavy tanks using HE. Calling it "spamming HE" is laughable since the reload on the Polish heavy tank is so long. We have inpenetrable tanks now in many situations from many howitzer specific tanks in lower tiers. Seems a bad trade off. Thanks for the WarGaming apologetics video.
If that was true (and if there are truly THAT many players with the Chieftain and Object 279e who play them that often and care that much, highly doubtful) then they would have just reduced 60TP HE damage etc.
Wow a person that both is against HE spam but supports the idea of derp tanks instead of saying "fuck all derp tanks" I am genuinely impressed I was expecting another "old HE bad new HE good, cry about it KV-2 players" kind of a video I still do think HE needs its splash back because it sure is really fun hitting tracks or view ports for no damage
I don't think 60TP HE spam is as rewarding as you make it out to be. Also, when you compare old HE to a band-aid, you make it seem that without the HE changes, hull-down impenetrable tanks would not be recognized as a problem, even though a large part of the playerbase and perhaps WG too know this is a problem. iMO HE spam was a minor problem compared to others and the 1.13 update greatly aggravates other problems. I do like the new video style, looks cool. BTW, have you seen chems' video on the state of the game? He talks about interesting concepts.
The 60TP HE epidemic was a problem. Most players that shot an HE shell from the 60TP were only firing HE shells from it no matter what. It was just like the Type 5 before it. So just like he stated, it was an issue. Plus with the HE changes it opens up the door now for WG to start to change other aspects of tanks like the 279e, Chief etc. They said they wouldn't nerf them years ago but I wouldn't be so sure now since it's obvious they over perform and have enough good traits to not be hindered by most maps. If anything this HE rework is a blessing in disguise down the road.
@@TheSeattleGamer Yes, HE spam was a problem, but at nowhere near the level that you're suggesting with the word epidemic. The number of HE spamming 60TP's was lower than 1 per full T10 match (EU). Also the second part of your answer is the same as what 13Disciple said in the video but I don't buy that. Everybody knows that Chiefs and 279's are broken and you don't need HE changes to understand that. If WG would work on these more important issues first, and then changed HE, the backlash would be much less.
It's quite simply a bad change that was poorly implemented. A large caliber HE shell should never deal 0 damage on top of not even causing critical damage. HE spam was never a real issue, but was instead a option that could be used in various ways, and some having genuine real combat instances of the practicality of the use of HE. -Light armor aka "soft" targets were a prime reason to choose to fire HE. HE caused higher damage and produced major critical damage to modules. This is one of the real world relatable instances of HE usage. -Hull down tough targets could be peppered with large enough caliber HE to cause at the very least some critical damage to modules such as guns, tracks, optics, etc. A bottom tier Sherman with the 105 could actually cause issue to a hull down top tier T29 for example. -Going along with the HE against tough armor... It's not the issue you paint it out to be in the video. Premium ammo spamming is what kills the super heavies, rendering armor much less useful. HE spam again, is not and never was the issue. -Certain tanks live and die via HE usage i.e. KV-2, O-I, Pz IV H, M4A1 Now take into consideration that the vast majority of tank weaponry in the game that predominately fires HE... Most of those weapons are lower accuracy and firing rounds that travel at lower velocity, and you end up with them being highly effected by the changes. Now, you can aim for weaker spots of armor, fire, and then watch as your shell hits for zero damage because of slight deviations in flight from RNG and you instead hit a "screen". The Rhm with the 15cm was a go-to funmobile for me and now, it's relegated to a RNG dependent slot machine if I chose to keep running that setup. Instead, the 12.8 is back on instead. Video wise: Production value was good, but the message is in error since the HE spam you quote was never an issue to start with... Now, the over usage of premium ammo, that's a issue.
Yes, we very much agree on this. The current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
I disagree, most players already know how to aim for weak points, its just that some don't want to lose a ton of credits just to have a 50% chance to pen a tank, I did not know anyone who complained about HE. The only people who benefit from this are hull down monsters/ tanks with no weak points. I really had no problem with He rounds, because if you are getting hit by them you can out trade them. All this is really doing is forcing players at high tiers to fire more gold. Wargaming is just covering it up as a form of balancing a broken mechanic, when HE was fine as it was.
To answer “if your video change my mind?” After 2 years of this vid (I just discover today lol) Yes but a lot of no in a way. Yes: As your argument point of comparing to noob tube is a good one, getting HE spam is not fun and low skill in high power out in general dumb down the game. As well as encourage no learning. No: “Hull down monster” HE spam is another tool of digging them out. Yes I agree may be you should not be able to stand against these tanks but on the other hand one monster should not be able to immune to 5-6 tanks and get away relatively harmless. In a perfect world there is always a flanking route and giving up a flank would not lose a game. There are also Gold rounds spaming the well armoured tanks most of the time would be beat anyway by gold except those monsters in which sometime turn the flank into trench style snipe a pixel “you push you lose” scenario. In conclusion: Yes I think HE need a change but a lot of things need to change as well. Map, derp gun handling etc. all in all in my opinion WG was over correcting the problem thus creating new one. Somewhere between the old pre-nerf HE and the current one is the perfect point if all the other current factor remain the same. For a start I think the splash damage should be back but lowering the damage according to how far from the round hitting to the weakest armour being calculate for the damage so no more track or wheels absorb all the HE damage (armour not hit) which make more sense.
hmmm, help me understand how the issue with the FV 4005 is worse now. I think I know the argument, but I want to hear it from your point of view so I can verify if my assumptions are correct.
This is precisely (in my opinion) the biggest problem the core gameplay loop now faces. Unless your target has incredibly thin armor... The current state of "Damage Focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices, regular and extra penetration. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. The differences between AP/APCR/HEAT are small in comparison to the penetration difference of regular and premium ammunition. Maybe this exact loop should be my next couple videos...
I'm not loading any HE in my tanks now. There are larger issues that need to be addressed than HE. I am liking the games without arty, which seems like most games now.
Mostly what others are saying. EBRs need to be their own class and limited to 1 or 2 per. I'd like to see -1/+1 Matchmaking. I don't mind arties but I'd limit them as well.
Great video! I agree with you and I was looking forward to these changes ever since they started testing them. Finally, aiming and studying armor models is rewarded. Thank you for posting!
same can be said for gold ammo, does it matter if you can angle and know all the ways to block shells coming at you when your opponent can hit 2 and punch right through you with gold ammo, it needs to be removed from the game as it’s as bad as HE described in this video, the game needs people to know how to use their tank and armour properly. But WG swill never remove gold because people know it’s WG credit maker for them. Gold is as bad to the game as arty is…period !!
Agreed, premium shells are a one dimensional experience. They need to be fixed. Unfortunately you already identified the main problem, premium shells and armor are directly tied to how the game is monetized...
@@13Disciple as is different. It's not bad. Not seen anything like this other then the tank stuff that the other person does. Not that I gotta clue how either, so yea. I think it's good and different.
well said ! Personally i enjoy the HE changes, and ive played my o ho after and its still pretty darn good with the derp gun ! Yes u pick your opponents more carefull than you used to (tbh the o ho was just aim at center mass and do huge dmg b4), i do agree that the actual derp tanks need a little buff in accuracy to make them better at aiming for weakspots (not too much tho lol) because it will encourage ppl to learn more about the armor and mechanics !
I really liked the video but it keeps bugging me on thinking about the gold shell that if you buy is better in every way and ends up being as problematic as the HE. But like you said there is still alot of things that needs to be worcked on and i dont think they want to delete things from the game like gold shell or op tanks to try and make a better and more viable meta for the game.
The current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
In the real world there are always veterans and noobs. When I was a new player I learned from my mistakes and took with me the techniques of the better (veteran) players. I never complained much about how imbalanced the game was instead I accepted the fact that life itself is not fair. You have to adapt and evolve to survive in both the game and in real world. I love playing WOT. Different perspectives about the game are always welcome.
Do you know what that means? Screen not penetrated? It means your shot did not get through spaced armor. Did you know tier 1 tanks can now damage a Maus with HE? As long as the shot hits directly on armor, it'll do *some* amount of damage. The KV-2 is perfectly capable of damage, you just have to either penetrate spaced armor or directly hit the armor model itself.
I deinstalled because of the HE changes not because they are simply bad, but as you said they took away a tool for me to at least sonewhat engage enemy tanks in hulldown or sidescraping positions the thing is if you pull back and give up a flank the game is mostly already lost you gotta keep these positions also the fact that HE rounds doesnt track and do damage and wont splash damage any more is bullshit cause it takes skill out of the game
I wonder how I have a 55% winrate and have only fired HE a few times in 30k games to reset cap. I literally never fire HE. It is bizarre to me (but well explained by 13Disciple) that folks rely so much on it.
Skill?WG made sure to toss that out a long time ago.OP premium tanks,arty,RNG. HE shells were a roundabout way for casual players and cheapos to at least damage tanks in superior positions.None of your examples are rooted in practice.This video was made with only theory in mind,and instead of addressing the HE changes,you just bring up more problems.And "Ask yoUr DeVelopErs" is a garbage solution.WG only cares about money,and nerfing HE will force Premium ammo usage. But the problem I have with HE is the fact that I CANNOT PEN WITH 105 HE THE ASS OF A TYPE 61.
This was an EXCELLENT breakdown of it all. And I'm one of those unicums people are so worried about. I highly think this is a good explanation of a modified gameloop that actually solves a lot of problems both to new players and us veterans alike.
I agree on principal on the HE changes but I would still like non Arty HE to have a splash radius if it impacts Tracks or the Ground. It should splash to the nearest armor to the point of impact so that the mechanic we now have stays the same on a direct hit. This would still allow the imo skillfull use of HE in situations where someone is sidescraping or shooting below him for extra damage. Both imo require some skill to execute and would allow usage of knowledge of game mechanics. Great video and love the style, more please :D
Great analysis and reasonable logic 13! The very same logic applies to gold ammo (I still refuse to call it "special"). Gold ammo is an easy & (widely) acceptable way to make up for a skill/armor knowledge deficit. With it, a tanks armor is nearly irrelevant and a player need not understand the core knowledge of armor design and how to penetrate it. Yes, I know that there are many situations -- as with HE as explained in this video -- that "gold" is the proper choice. But the 100% loadout is a weak crutch and eliminates the other player core mechanic of knowing how and when to use their armor/side-scraping ability. In other news, I LOVE the graphical presentation. And it is so specific to this subject that I have to believe that you did these drawings? If so, wow. Fantastic work!
@BrianS 2021 -- Reading comprehension. I said, "Yes, I know that there are many situations -- as with HE as explained in this video -- that 'gold' is the proper choice" That said, it is impossible to deny the fact that the extra penetration afforded by gold ammo -- without any real penalty (i.e. no loss of alpha damage with the round as a counter-balance) -- is not a way for lesser skilled players to ensure/increase their ability to pen an enemy. In the very same way that 13 explained the HE spam in this video. I mean, why learn about tank weak spots when all I have to do is press "2" and I'm more or less good to go? Yes, 3-marking tanks (especially with mark #3 ) is one of the aforementioned "situations" where gold is probably/usually the correct choice.
Yes, you could *almost* replace every instance of this video where it says HE and replace with gold ammo. I 100% agree and fully believe that gold ammo is the biggest "unfun" game mechanic we have now. At least when it comes to the lowest level of core game play loops. The only other issue that comes close is premium tanks. I did a video on gold ammo WAAAAAYYYYY back in the day. My opinions haven't deviated much so maybe you should check that video out. Perhaps I should do another more focused video in this new format. -> ua-cam.com/video/6PmNWmCEYo8/v-deo.html Yes I illustrated all of this myself. On that same note if you know any artists that would like to be criminally underpaid to help my next video let me know lol.
@@13Disciple - Incredible illustration work. Absolutely incredible! I believe I have already watched that gold ammo video, but I'm gonna go check it out again just to make sure. And to me, the "gold ammo issue" is the biggest issue I have with WoT. I'll take three arty and too many light tanks in a game over the seemingly indiscriminate use and high percentage of gold flying around nearly every battlefield. Thanks 13! Great content.
I agree with most of the points you’ve made but HE should be called APHE to make players aware that it’s not true HE like on arty. In my opinion high caliber derp tanks should have retained there old HE round while replacing all “small caliber” rounds with APHE. You should continue this series! I’m definitely sharing this!
While I believe renaming APHE would add to the confusion, I can understand the point you are making. The game doesn't really do a great job.. or ANY job of explaining shell mechanics to the player at all. Which is the real problem here. Naming it APHE would assist in helping players understand *how* the new system works, but maybe they should have a better tutorial to begin with...
@@13Disciple I wanted to help someone new get into the game a few months ago, before the current iteration of the HE rework hit the Sandbox. They spent about *two hours* on the Bootcamp tutorial's final stage due to how its designed. It might not be entirely related but yes, a better tutorial would fix a lot of these problems - all of the information we take for granted is indeed found somewhere within the game (the gear button menu in the garage has more than 2 buttons, who knew?), but you shouldn't have to actively search for it.
There WAS a proper solution to HE, well, if we pretend it was actually a problem... It was called a spall liner. Who no one fucking used aside me apparently. Except I used it on nearly all my heavies against artillery, not other tanks, not that it helped much again said artillery... Which was also now pretty much removed from the game. Like seriously, the only people I heard complain about HE are heavy tank users complaining they get hit by a high damage gun like the e100 or polish ht for 250-400 DMG, getting so insanely angry, but they seem to never even CONSIDER the option to use that spall liner which would cut that to 120-200. But worse, all of this completely ignores the matchmaking and the facts tanks don't come fully leveled, and using HE was one of the only ways to actually grind up semi reasonable exp and not be entirely useless in a +2 matchmaker. This is purely yo milk more money from players forced to use more gold ammo and frustrate them into buying more free exp because without HE stock tanks are even more insufferable. Well, give it a while, it's gonna be like back in 2015-16 when their main income earners game just reaches a critical point in depopulation and they decide to actually fix stuff instead of doing weird and useless changes or ones that milk for money. Then you'll get another jump and player growth once more, up to a sufficient level, then they'll fuck it up again by inaction and greedyness, the playerbade will dwindle once more, then fix... Rinse and repeat. But my point stands, this is a useless change, and they won't actually improve the game at all until most players run off like they did before.
Oh yeah btw the COD analogy is fundamentally flawed, cod has way less rng in bullet spread (but rof to make up for any) and no armor/armor penetration mechanics when bullets hit the player directly (ik some cod games have bullet penetration on body armor or objects). Wot has both of them. Cod also has respawns (unless you are a hardcore player in games with respwn disabled)
The comparison wasn't about how CoD approaches armor or damage or RNG. The comparison was about how CoD approached player power and balanced for skill using a specific tool. In this way the comparison makes sense. The video is about game design in general and referencing other works helps people understand fundamental game design systems with more context.
i might have a sample size problem (7.5k battles/7.55 avg tier), but i don't remember any particular engagements with either chieftains are very rare in randoms because not many people have them and consistently stomping isn't fun, and you can always try to flank or retreat and you can deal with 279s with heat into the upper area of the hull, which you can do quite often since they'll almost always overextend without cover
I don't play wot pc, i play blitz, but i think these changes will make high penetration HE/HESH stronger/op. Because if you play with a tank like fv4005, you won't have to worry about hitting the track or spaced armor from the side, since 230mm is still enough to penetrate any tanks side. Fun Fact: fv4005's gun in wotb is 3 shells autoloader 123mm gun with 460 alpha.
Interesting take, but I consider the HE Spam "problem" mostly fiction with the exception of a handful of vehicles (Hetzer, 60TP, Foch 155, etc.), and even then largely situational. Realistically, there were very few players complaining about HE spam as it was just not that common, and when it was encountered it was often, as you pointed out, new players that are usually killed quickly and easily anyway. I think the biggest motivating factor for Wargaming was to remove the option of using HE instead of premium ammo for tougher targets...ironically coinciding with a trend of releasing a consistent string of hull down monsters almost impossible to dig out without extremely accurate shoots with premium ammo. Nerfing HE to the point of being almost completely useless forces players to only use 2 types of ammo; standard and premium. It's just another gold/credit sink.
Agreed. We have the same problem again, with premium ammo, and in a way the problem is worse. You should check out my (old but still relevant) video on fixing premium ammo.
Then if HE makes the game boring and unskilled and unfair as you say, nerf APCR too, is the same thing, APCR make the game easier and boring and unfair and unskilled. I insist HE nerf is a way to make the skilled players happy, kill the playerbase and make more money to Wargaming by APCR.
This is precisely (in my opinion) the biggest problem the core gameplay loop now faces. Unless your target has incredibly thin armor... The current state of "Damage Focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices, regular and extra penetration. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. The differences between AP/APCR/HEAT are small in comparison to the penetration difference of regular and premium ammunition. Maybe this exact loop should be my next couple videos...
Another short coming of the game. Why it does not provide actual in game armor model viewing is a complex answer, but suffice it to say it's not good for players. Forcing players to leave your game to look up armor models on a 3rd party site like tanks.gg is bad game design. Also, tanks.gg is the best place to discover armor models.
The artillery' changes was a different change. the HE shells for artillery did not undergo the same change that it did for direct fire tanks. I suggest you go back and take a watch of the official wargaming video in the description.
@@13Disciple wow wrong with your answer there, arty HE suffers the same lame crippling nerf. As well as many other dumb implementations that are only further pandering to the Uniscum and crybabies.
@@triggrjockeyj7708 you do know arty he works like the old system still? Aka splash and looking for thin armor. Only now you need to think and not just spam 1 he type.
You are WRONG. 75% of the player base plays simply for fun. They will NEVER research ANYTHING because they don't care about winning or doing better, they just want to have fun, and DERP was FUN and REMOVING HE has made the game less fun for all but the extreme try-hards who did not like HE spam at them. ARTY and HE changes in the same patch following EBR's will be the DEATH of WOT's. WOT's will see a large decline in the player base as casual players quit as they see WG favoring UNICUMS by removing DERP and not nerfing GOLD rounds.
@@13Disciple Don't you find it odd that shooting HE out of a 152MM gun into the tracks does not track a tank? Watching CIRCON 3-mark the KV-13 using DERP was FUN! CIRCON 3-marked all tanks that could use DERP, with DERP, and it was a lot of fun, but spamming GOLD to you is high skill and is not boring and 1 dimensional? QB had a game recently on Berlin where two IS3's were in windows just spamming GOLD at their turrets and RNG decided which penned, but you would consider that high skill, right, and fun too? Let's see you 3-Mark the KV-13 with DERP if you think it takes no skill. I have 60K games, but have quit except for Frontlines which I will play for roughly 40 hours each week it is live because it is soooo much fun (I have turbo's on all my FL tanks ready to go) and I also do Saturday Showdown and I will play during Holiday Op's and do any MARATHONS for free tanks, but aside from that, I am done with the game.
While we are going to disagree on the current iteration of HE. I think we can both agree the current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
@@13Disciple The HE NERF has made premium spam even more. I took HE off most of my tier 10 heavies except for cap resets and replaced it all with GOLD rounds.
If you replace "HE" with "gold ammo," you'll have a pretty decent analysis for an element that's ACTUALLY problematic. Now there's literally nothing I can do against hulldown tanks (which are fucking everywhere) or sidescrapers. Maybe the damage on a nonpen was a little too high, but I firmly think it's too low now. I'm doing less than 10% damage on a nonpen. Why would I ever do that? I'd need dozens of shells just to deal with a single enemy, and there just isn't enough ammo space or time in the world to do that. It already took multiple minutes for high alpha HE tanks to destroy a single tank by "spamming" HE, now it takes more time than is available in a match, and thats if you've got decent HE. God forbid you're playing a normal, balanced tank (like the 5A for example) and it would take you all evening to deal with an enemy. You liken the HE changes to taking off a band-aid covering real issues of map and vehicle balance. Maybe some century, proper map balance will come to WoT. They need to make maps larger than they've ever been historically, sans frontlines and grand battles. As for overpowered reward and premium tanks, I think WG would rather let the game burn to the ground rather than nerf their problematic cash cows. The problem with the band-aid analogy is that you don't take the band-aid off until the wound beneath has actually healed, something that has not and likely will not happen for a very long time. I know you spent an unreasonable amount of time producing this video (honestly I prefer the old style, without all the animations), but I still think the HE changes are complete and utter dogshit in 97% of cases. Make HE work the way it used to (which was interesting and allowed for actual skilled play AND provided a crutch for weak players) but reduce the nonpen max damage a bit, from 50% to 35% maybe.
While we are going to disagree on the current iteration of HE. I think we can both agree the current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
@@13Disciple Solution for gold spam is lower damage and lower velocity for the gold rounds, give it proper disadvantages to offset the higher pen. For example, in the Obj140 the gold ammo is 30% slower (same damage), making it a last resort choice for me.
Thanks. That gave me a lot to consider.
Whether it changes your mind or not at all, I just appreciate that you took the time to consider my point of view. Thank you.
@@13Disciple Yeah youre busy deleting the replys that says that youre no more than a Wargamming puppet. And that all your arguments are no more than a lot of nonsense.
@@AngelMartinez-uh8lk lol wut. How would a replay even have evidence? I will gladly send you all of mine for this year if you want that sort of thing hahaha
We NEED that ‘How to fix wot’ series
I never had an issue with HE spam, I don't see why it was a problem.
I very rarely ran into people spamming HE at me.
Aimed AP/APCR or HEAT does more damage if used skillfully.
Did you listen to what he said?
I watched it and I still agree with Snicker, I never had a problem with people spamming HE at me@@danielstoica3489
I love how you systematically approach this kind of debate, this really changed my mindset a lot. On this topic though, I think WG should rework the premium shells and armors before this HE changes. With the HE changed but not others, players are forced to use premium shells against hard armors in bad conditions (e.g. Maus in Ensk)
I agree - HE changes are good, but all tanks should have proper weakspots first.
@@Eshelion Why? Why all tanks must have weak spots in the front? In real life, you cannot ask a manufacturer to make a tank with weak spots. lol. You could argue that WG must balance maps, to have fewer corridor maps. That is ok, but then, again, in real life, you may find yourself in a corridor...and you will lose. That is life. But maybe we don't want a game to be like real life... I don't know
@@danielstoica3489 Because it is a game and for the playability they should have frontal weak spots. Otherwise tank without frontal weak spot > tank with such weak spot of the same class + boring campy gameplay if you can't dig such tank out of his place (imagine end game with one such perfectly positioned camper and not enough time to cap the base - you have lost by default unless you have substantial numbers advantage) - and this game rewards campy gameplay too much already. Ofc maybe WG could redesign maps to make flanking easier (more smaller passages), but that is waaaay more work to.
And if you would like it to be like rl - in rl tanks doesn't hit dirt on distance below 50m, in real life no one is aiming for hatches, in real life composite armor and different materials are a thing (in this game only angle of armor is taken into calculations), in rl blueprint tanks are worse than real ones (there are solid reasons why they didn't make career), in rl some tanks never met against each other as well, as didn't fight alongside some of them), in rl tanks don't fight alone, in rl one penetrating shot is enough to destroy enemy tank and so on, and on.
There are reasons why some tanks are way better than others and one of them is lack of frontal weak spots.
@@danielstoica3489 talking about real life, real HE shells is a mix of old and new HE shell mechanics of WoT
I got a masters degree in finance that was easier than figuring out WOT
One thing I must bring up - removing the splash damage from HE is an issue. Before, you could use HE to fire under a vehicle and do a bit more damage to it. That took skill and was a cool mechanic. Now you cannot do that. IMHO splash should come back.
When I first started playing 9 years ago, the KV-2 was the first tank that made me feel like a threat on the field. As you nodded at, there were so many elements and nuances to learn all at once and the game didn't explain them well at all. (There were also less UA-camrs like you to break it all down). These days I only use the KV-2 when I've had a frustrating session on 8-10 tier games, and I want to just have a little bit of gambling fun to calm down. By this, I mean the 3d100 that is dispersion/penetration/dmg RNG. Your FOO explanation changed my mind on the HE changes, and I agree that the derp guns need a conciderable improvement to accuracy if hitting a specific area is more important now (especially given the sacrifices derp tanks accept in trade). I appreciate you explaining how fixing core loops highlights other loops that need to be addressed. But, where I think the playerbase will still feel exasperated is in how (historically) long it takes war gaming to address each of these next issues. Often times they'll even seemingly ignore 'difficult' issues like fixing maps or making new ones, in lieu of 'simple' fixes like changing the turret traverse speed on X tank by 0.6%
A few months ago I remember getting Sand River in my VK75.01K and heading into the middle ditch to try to sidescrape. I got to the corner, turned my tank so I was perfectly angled, and starting peeking only to be immediately BRAPP'd by a rhm firing HE at my turret, splashing the engine deck for over 500 dmg. I remember this so vividly because I dont think I've ever been more angry and frustrated at a game, and this was before the HE changes had even been announced. What was the point of playing a rear-turreted heavy tank that sacrificed speed, gun depression, and DPM if all of that extra niche armor was completely negated by somebody just spamming HE? That event seriously highlighted the devaluation of armor in the game and really soured my attitude towards playing heavies. Changes were absolutely needed and overall I am happy with what WG introduced.
I(key emphasis) find it best to never, under any circumstance, head into the middle ditch. No arty, so what. They don't have a heavy tank, so what. In a heavy, you can be outspotted by any medium/light from the hills. It's low ground with no value and you can be shot from many angles. Also, both sides of trench are easily defendable.
HE shells made heavy tanks armor useless? *laughs in my non-russian heavies getting penned by every gold round in existance*
But what if WG never changes reward and overpowered hulldown tanks? And the corridor maps don’t allow you to use terrain/mobility to outplay your opponents with also arty not being effective, how will you ever counter those tanks that WG will never nerf to not make their most loyal and often good paying customers upset?
He said it in the video, you don't.
That's a problem of map design, HE and Prem rounds were a bandaid to those issues, Unlike infantry FPS games, armor meant you needed high pen to do damage, vs doing damage no matter where you hit.vBoth HE and maps/armor needed to be fixed together, but fixing maps takes way more time.
Every time WOT makes an impactful change the reaction is the same. The player force either complains, shrug their shoulders or have a blank look. In a couple of weeks it all over and the game continues. Humans adapt, we are the supreme adapters of the universe! Now if and when those folks who camp eventually push forward at the games start then strategy takes over and teamwork wins regardless of how big a tank might be.
One of the core issues is server culture what I mean is each server plays differently based on regional differences in humans so things like team work where a HE derp may be useful for tracking then having 3 to 5 other tanks attack the tracked tank and the derp tank getting assistance damage few tankers will take advantage of it.
I play WoT from beta, and I think the HE shell nerf, will only encourage the usage of "gold" ammo. Also, KV2 must have its accuracy buffed. It's nearly unplayable now. And what about KV2R? People paid real money to buy it. Should they get their money back?
I argue at 11:38, that yes, the accuracy of "derp" tanks needs improvement.
As for prem shells....
This is precisely (in my opinion) the biggest problem the core gameplay loop now faces. Unless your target has incredibly thin armor... The current state of "Damage Focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices, regular and extra penetration. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. The differences between AP/APCR/HEAT are small in comparison to the penetration difference of regular and premium ammunition.
Maybe this exact loop should be my next couple videos...
I miss the old Extra Credits... With Dan and James gone in 2018 and 2019 respectively, the show feels so... Hollow 😭
Great show indeed!
I just played 10 games in the derpy mcderp kv2 and could not get the damn gun to hit anything.
Except for one light tank which I evaporated into thin air.
Which is why I can not convince myself to stop.
"they must choose the appropriate ammunition to damage the enemy".......
I would completely agree with you..... but this is not what people do.... and HE isn't what made the damage loop broken/unecessary. APCR did.... The APCR shell didn't give up *anything* outside of shelling out credits. (used to be called "gold spam"). While HE is certainly used more often /now/, it's not nearly as broken as the 300+mm pen shells at tier 6-8 doing the damage of AP shells. HE shell damage is extremely unreliable. Almost as random as a dice-roll in D&D. Sure you may hit some critical hit once in a blue moon, but the APCR shells they give out like candy to the players with a crap-ton of credits, makes the concept of 'use these shells in this situation' concept completely wrecked. HE shells are great for removing a hulldown'd enemy staring you down.
Your mentality here is literally a situation of "perfect interaction or bust" issue. 'studying' a target's armor models would have been *great*.... if they didn't ruin armor models by removing key weaknesses where normal shells could be helpful (like removing machinegun ports as weak spots and in turn placing a gigantic plate of armor. T29 used to be a huge challenge, til you shoot the big tumor of an MG port on the front of its hull.... but now you just smack it anywhere on the hull with APCR and you're pretty much golden.)
I like the concept of the mental loops. but this is rather....biased towards the concept that HE shells are the problem-child while the premium shell completely rakes the armor model across the coals in favor of paying out a ridiculous amount of credits to "buy skill shots" that can do crazy damage through max armor values without requiring skill of the player...
Edit: I'd add HEAT to this situation, but their changes to spaced armor have helped mitigate that problem...
This all sound nice and reasonable in theory and in vacuum. Than you realise that we are talking about game that have 3 types of ammo. You shoot your standard and if you pen you just continue. If you do not pen you try to aim at weak spots. If tank that you shoot at does not have weak spots than you shoot HE to do at least some damage since it will be better than nothing. Of course if you are P2W player you can just load in premium ammo and you just pen. So really what this changed is that more players will just use premium ammo. Now with the highsight I can tell that while you previously met HE spammer 1 in 10 games now you have 1 premium spammer in each game
Sorry, but this is BS. Why would they address HE as a skill band aide and not address the spamming of premium rounds? If you try to stop and aim for little weeks spots with a derp tank, like a KV-2, you’re going to get annihilated.
One does not rule out the other, but as was seen last year, doing everything at once overwhelmed players that couldn’t handle the changes, as well as balance issues if too much happen at once. So yes, why do one change now and another later, because doing changes incrementally is much easier then doing everything at once. But from this patch people seem to think that just because HE and arty was changed now, no other changes will be done.
Mate, we need more of such videos which can help us!!
Thanks :)
Your basic premise that HE shells interrupted the practice by making armor knowledge unnecessary is wrong. If HE cannot penetrate, it causes much less damage, based on the depth of penetration and the amount of HE. That's exactly what happens in real life... If you were facing a KV-2 152mm derp gun in a heavily armored tank, you know you would survive with minimum damage. Not so now. The odds now are that you will take VERY little to no damage. The KV-2 WAS balanced by its poor accuracy, poor armor, very slow reload and poor maneuverability, now it's dead meat on the battlefield.
Here’s the problem… I’ve had multiple HE rounds do 0 dmg now, even when aimed at weaker spots from lower caliber guns. And this essentially makes light tank HE virtually useless against heavies and some td’s.
WG doesn’t nerf premium tanks and since they refuse to adapt the MM to balance 279e’s, Chieftains, etc they will always be a problem.
‘Surrender a flank’ - yeah, sounds like a strategy for success to just forfeit an entire chunk of the map. That’s not map control that’s a recipe for defeat.
It’s not just the two tanks you mention.. tanks like the IS7, 705A, etc are basically impenetrable and/or essentially undamageable now when hull down. And removing the ability to shoot and splash the undercarriage is no longer an option.
While I’ll love being able to sit hull down in my IS7 and not worry, this is too extreme and a detriment to the game. Do people spam HE due to a lack of skill/knowledge? Sure, of course some do. Do good players fire HE due to the imbalance of tanks in the game? Absolutely.
Not to mention this makes it impossible to be free-to-play at higher tiers, which hate to break it to WG is still the majority of their player base.
Thanks for making this video!
.......the whole fact you tried using noob tubes as a example shows how badly you out of the loop with cod, noob tubes havent been powerful since mw2
And funnily enough, they got a similar nerf that decreased their damage so heavily that they are completely useless. Literally no one uses grenade launchers in CoD. (Okay, technically I have a grenade launcher on one of my MW classes, but it's strictly used for support - it's a smoke launcher)
Trusting one of your allies to deal with a hull down S conq when u can't is not a gamer move
And yes, i agree, the HE nerfs make other problems so much more obvious and ridiculous
But nerfing HE was and should not have been a priority. Fixing the actual problems was and still is. If tanks had actual weakspots, HE would just become another shell type only derp guns can use effectively. If something like an s conq would have an overmatchable cupola (~30mm not 60), HE would give you a flat out dpm nerf since you can pen your AP or APCR with ease (ignore the rng for now). Everyone (or at least HTs in a brawl) would be able to pen eachother. Someone spamming HE would give up a ton of dpm (at the very least half of it) at the cost of requiring no skill. I'ts a tradeoff.
Another huge problem with the game is the our lord and saviour, the RNG (rigged number generator, thats how it feels like). Lets take as an example a tank with a big, inaccurate/unreliable gun, our friend 60tp (pre 1.13). 950 HE alpha, 90mm of pen, 750 AP and HEAT alpha, 250 and 317 pen respectively, both are decent and reasonably adequate against most targets. Now lets pick a target, S Conq just for convenience. Hull down, u cant pen it with ap, the turret ring is 305mm thick (or 12"), you need an especially high ap pen roll to go thru it and the cupola apart from a very very thin 89mm thick plate, its an autobounce. A good player will know to load HEAT. It can pen the turret ring 60-75% of the time, it can pen the cupola at any angle you can see it at and with a bit of luck, the turret sides just left and right of the gun. And know here comes the problem. How often will you hit them (and lets say the 60tp player has perfect marksmanship and fully aims the shells)? Turret ring is tiny, so are the turret sides where there is no spaced armor. Shots can and will go into the mantlet, hit the gun, the spaced armor on the upper plate or anywhere on the turret and do no dmg. 60tp has .38 base accuracy, with the crew skill buff the commander gives and other stuff you want to add on, it goes to .36. At 100m you are looking an aiming circle about 2/3 the size of the s conq. With all that in mind, how often will you be able to hit the said weakspots? 20% of the time? Maybe 40 if rng is on your side? With a rammer you are looking at just an under 17 seconds reload, almost 2.7k dpm, not bad for such a big gun. 20% of that is 540, not even 1 hit a minute. Ok, thats maybe a bit pessimistic, lets take the 40%. Just over 1k dpm... At this phase it will take you over 2 and a half minutes of continuous firing to kill him. At that point better double tap f, reverse and go find something else to do, thats just a waste of time. Now lets take the HE, with lets say, 370 averge dmg (you may hit somewhere close to the gun for more spash on the deck or for less if you hit the spaced armor) and lets say you hit 66-85% of your shots
For 66% you have 900, not rly all that good and for 85 just over 1150. Thats a 15% dmg increase over the heat, you can also do a lot more module dmg or even splash other tanks if they are close enough but most importantly, its the best tactical play if you have no other option that fighting. Maybe your meds are bad players and lost the other side of the map and your only option is to push, but you cant bcz they have TD support, there are many scenarios. Guys, dont forget, a big gun has to trade a lot of things to get high alpha, gun handling, reload, dpm, pen, flexibility or even armor (in the case of the Grille) and only those guns are big enough to do any significant dmg in 1 hit. Yes lower caliber guns like 122-130mm guns were able to do about 120-200 dmg with better reliability and accuracy, but they still did half the dmg for not that much shorter reload (10 seconds, 180 average for a 122 and 16-17 reload and ~350 for a 150-155, twice the dmg but less than half the reload).
And about killing low HP targets, take this as an example: played my E75 the other day and i had to kill a hull down T95 on low HP. I bounce 2 AP shells off its cupola (180mm thick nice balance) and then my third shell was an HE. I hit the same spot (the cupola). He had about 70 hp? I did 38... On a cupola hit... Pre 1.13 that should and would have been a kill, but no, you cant splash HE anymore, so you have to pen all that raw armor with HE.
And now for my final point, what about mid tier derp guns? 1.13 made them almost useless, way less fun and just boring to play. That was probably the only way some players had fun in this game, and now bcz of some high tier "problems", all of them are dead (except the low tier ones that actually needed nerfs, they still can easily pen tanks with HE and bcz the armor is so thin, splash dmg was not helping almost at all). And what about the KV-2r? a 50$ tank ppl paid for, just to get nerfed into the ground later. Ans unlike the KV-2, it doesnt even have the option of a mediocre but hard hitting 107
For sweaty meta^tm tryhard players 1.13 was a huge success bcz they dont play nor care about derps, but for casuals it was a huge hit. I consider myself to be on the line between casual and tryhard, i will not min max my tank, i will not play bad tanks (unless they are meme worthy), but in battle i will try my best to win with whatever i have. 1.13 ruined a good chunk of fun i was able to have in the game, like the KV-2 or the Sherman III. Ans at the end of the day, whats the point of a game? Try your best to win a game, get high number battles, become frustrated when u cant reach your goals bcz the teams are so bad? Or just have fun? Idk, thats up to you
The only thing that I want WG to reconsider, is that to buff derp tanks
I appreciate you going all John Boyd on this to offer a fresh perspective! You seem to be saying that WoT is actually harder than it appears or at least it was intended to be. While you can certainly learn positional tactics by playing, the trouble is you really can’t learn weak spots by playing. That seems to require spending hours on Armor Inspector instead of playing. Maybe you could explain how you expect players to learn weak spots?
What? Weak spots are easy. Usually lower plate, cupola, any flat armor (for heat). That is it. I know, there are a couple tanks that don't have this, or they have other weak spot locations, but there are so few of them, that you can learn them quite easily. And you have the aid of the reticle that turns green.
Some years ago the aim indicator was changed to show Green (pen) Yellow(maybe) Red(lol no) based on Line-of-sight armor thickness instead of just raw armor thickness, so wiggling your aim over the tank's hitbox will tell you where your gun can pen. If its all Red and Yellow, you're shit outta luck.
The HE did not needed rework at all, especially not this drastically. It rendered several tanks, who do not even have choice of shells, useless. Take the Sau40 of their weekly showdown that "struggled" using their own words. The top gun has HE or HEAT. Facing higher tiered vehicles such at an AT2 or T150, which does happen, you can't do a thing as you lack mobility. HE, as it should, was a scare tactic. You can argue about how much damage it should do, but in this situation it could not do anything. It has not the accuracy to hit weak points that are disappearing more and more in this game. Even HEAT with more pen could not do much either. It definitely does not have the mobility to retreat or flank. So in this situation all you can do is give up basically and die.
I've also had KV-2 HE fully absorbed in my lower tier medium tanks tracks. A 152mm shot should always do damage. The damage was already depended if you hit a strong spot or penetrate a weak spot. You won't be able to convince many that a 152mm exploding HE shell would not do any damage.
Aside that argument. Yes you have newer and lesser skilled players HE-spam, which honestly never was that pertinent of a problem (heavy armorerd tanks can also reposition from sidescraping). But these changes will only drive newer players away from the game. As you fairly pointed out the accuracy is one frustration and there is no system for that in place.
WG has wrong priorities.
11:38
Am I the only one who never had a problem with HE spam? How hard was it to just get out of the way of a HE spam. Like "WOW. That guys has shot me with HE 6 times in a row while I've been hulldown here, maybe I should fucking move?" Honestly if you got HE spammed before it was your own damn fault for poor positioning and bad decision making. No one was forcing you to sit there and take it.
I mean if you were playing a super heavy and actually in a proper position and then some rando E100, 60TP, Type 5 etc comes up and keeps derping into your angled armor for 350, it's a major issue. Just like what he stated in the game, those tanks give up almost everything to have armor and if you are playing it correct and still dying in a couple minutes because of HE spam, it's a core issue that needed to be fixed which WG has done.
Even if the 279/Chief perform better now, I don't care. If anything it opens up the door for WG to address them with nerfs in the future since they will be forced to.
@@TheSeattleGamer what part of get out of the way don't you understand? If you're hitting and penning shots against said derping heavy, and staying the hell out of its line of fire between shots, you should be able to win. As I said, no one is forcing you to take HE spam to the face, back off and change your own tactics. AS for nerfing the OP reward tanks, Wargaming has already stated that they will never nerf those tanks. EVER. So don't hold your breath on those changes.
@@echo_9835 A tier 10 tank getting hit by a derp gun for 350 every 15-20 seconds would result in them dying after 2-3 minutes. It takes them more time than that to make decisions.
I've never had a problem with HE either, but then again I also think this HE nerf was fucking stupid in nearly every way.
@@TheSeattleGamer if it was a major issue, why did literally NO ONE ever ran fucking spall liner? I ran one on most of my heavies, although it was against artillery, never had a problem with HE, not on my heavies, not other tanks. And no, I'm didn't own a single heavy HE gun aside t49. Now you can't do a single thing about hull down monsters, and with the artillery nerfed they get to dominate everything even harder than before... And that's just the same tier balance, I won't even start on how much more impossible it got to grind out stock tanks fighting higher tiers now... Who are even stronger now due to field modifications that make the power disparity even worse. But hey, more gold spam and free exp buying for wg, great! Well, unless people quit, like I did, and many ARE leaving.
U almost had me convinced not gonna lie. Great points in the video. But then I tried actually playing the game today.
I gotta disagree with u man, HE and derp guns are pretty much unusable now from my experience.
11:28
Not against lightly armored targets. They might even be better since tracks and spaced armor wont save them anymore
18Disciple Base recaps don't work with HE anymore, as HE no longer does damage on all hits. Quit buying the lie that HE was "fixed". HE now bounces or hits for no damage now. HE only causes damage to tracks if it can penetrate the drive sprocket.
The HE rework is WG pushing more players to spam prem shells. I've seen so many twitch and you tube channels where players ONLY have prem ammo for tanks. I feel this is an attack by WG to make players use the more expensive shells... and to buy these players will need to invest in prem tanks and prem accounts. The other night I got hit by a standard shell, I was so surprised I took a screenshot and posted it on discord. WG needs to fix the prem round spam next, and make HE derps great again.
You see, the problem was that HE is cheap, and spamming is easy. Spamming gold is a problem, but fewer players spam gold because is expensive. And they buy premium time and premium tanks to compensate, I know. WG is making money. But that does not mean they should bring back HE dmg. They should balance gold too.
I was so glad I found your chanel to see that the last Video was 2 months ago...
No, not changed my mind, its just a lot of nonsense. First must be changed the corridor maps, the no weakspot af the tanks and the Premium tanks overpowered, and THEN they can talk about the HE. You seems just a WOT aspirant to employee of the month.
So i do agree with the HE changes for Lights, meds, TDs, and Heavies. But makes no since for ARTY's the fact that long reloads, terrible accuracy, and long slow shell travel times, and now 400-500 dpm at best says a big F@#k you to 20% of the community.
For derp tanks the changes could drive player education and skill improvement, but this is NOT a factor with artillery players. Arty is entirely limited by rng and cannot use armor models or weak points at all. All they see is their game enjoyment decreasing with no opportunity at all to change that, unless WG decides to undo tbeir previous artillery nerf of greatly increased rng. People complain artillery is a low skill tank class - this is entirely due to the game mechanics/rng taking away most of the effect of using skill. Whether you hit a fully aimed in stationary target is a random throw of the dice. No skill needed or required, just click after click. Unless WG can find some way to change that, 1/5 of their player base is going to start looking elsewhere for enjoyable gaming.
So TRUE! But this is not only for arty. It happened many times to me that perfectly aimed shoots are deviated a lot or simply disappearing. So no matter how much one struggles to hit a weak spot it's the game who decides what happens. This gives no incentive for the players to try to get better. Just spam expensive ammunition(wallet warriors) or use high explosives. This game becomes more pay2win with each update.
holy shit the quality
This is better then any Extra Credit video.
I'm new to your channel (only seen your credits vid) so my opinion might be different to your usual viewer. Just saying. So, first of all. I really like the fact that you actually understand game design. A lot of people in the WoT community have very little knowlage of game design in general so many proposals for changes that are coming from said community might not achieve expected results. Sometimes people jump to easy conclusions. Remove arty, remove gold, nerf this, buff that... when actually the cause of the problem might be something entirely else. Me personally, I don't mind the HE changes. For years I always used HE on poorly armored TD's and to kill 1% HP opponets. That's it. Nothing changed for me here. Many people are agaist it and I understand how it's better to deal 300 dmg to a hull down Conqueror instead of 100 dmg but at the same time, someone sidescraping in the 705 getting hit by HE for 400 dmg is just really stupid. The only personal problem with HE I had was when pre-nerf Type 5 Heavy was spamming everyone for 500 with gold HE. Bringing back pre-1.13 HE is not going to fix broken, boring hull down meta that this game has become. People need to find the real solution to the issue. I'm happy there is someone like you in the community that I'm feeling is competent enough to accurately address problems and propose possible solutions. When talking about gold spam for example, we have to understand why this problem occured in the first place. I recently came back to the game after many years. I think I used to play in or prior to 2016 and now I came back in 2020/2021. Game has changed a lot and I noticed it's way harder for me to achieve 2400/2500 wn8 like before. Before I wasn't even trying. I was just playing the game, using standard ammo for the most part. Now I'm playing and I'm like damn, what can I do here, how am I supposed to kill that guy. I'm thinking, I probalby should load gold for that, I need gold for this, I would be better off with gold for that guy, and so on. I think armor is way to strong in the current meta. In my opinion this creates a paradox. Armor is stronger so you're more survivable but at the same time more people are now willing to fire gold so you also become weaker in certain situations. That's besides powercreep of course. I remember T-62A to have a strong turret. More or less. Nowadays it's just dmg farm for HEAT rounds. Like holy crap, one of the strongest mediums back in the day now has 45% WR. We reached a point where almost every line needs a buff. Many people say how it's because WG wants everyone to lose credits. I don't agree with that. If so, then why would they allow players to earn boosters or even tier VIII premiums (marathons and referral programs). Clan boosts? I remember back in the day there was a subset of players that was more or less avarage skill wise. 48%/49% I'd say. They wanted HT's to have better armor because their idea of a heavy tank was an indestructible bunker that just go straight forward. Now we have overbuffed armor and what? It's better now? Everyone fires gold. Back in the day, it was not that important for you to fire gold because you actually could hit weakspots. Nowadays you sometimes need gold for that even. Of course you was always better of with gold but less people felt the need to use it. I was never shooting gold. Now I do all the time. Of course, don't get me wrong. I'm not defending WG here, they're at fault for many things. I just don't personaly believe powercreep was motivated by money. Black Market is meant to drain people's credits. Not gold. In my opinion of course. So yeah, this game is such a complex ecosystem... I don't think it's all black and white. I think we have to be wiser when coming with potential changes for this game. I know this was a very rambling comment and I'm sorry for that but I'm not sure how to address my thoughts differently. I'm sure there are more people that think like me.
thanks for the engaging response. Appreciate hearing from positions like this. I'll have to think over the points you brought up.
Really good comment, foood for thought alright.
this is as usual excellent and stretches the cognizance of the World of Tanks general player base. Like the game itself those that it get appreciate it and benefit and those who don't complain and blame.
I don't know why in steel hunter mode was still using old-HE mechanic, There must be a reason.
Was it? I didn't think it was. I'd be surprised if they were even able to represent 2 different game mechanics for the same shell type only differentiated by mode.
What an amazing video. Thanks for sharing your opinion on the changes. Just for the history I agree with you. I can't understand however what does this video have so many dislikes :-/
It's a divisive topic and many disagree with the position I've arrived at. Appreciate this comment.
I find this both fascinating and hilarious. Players moaning about HE and artillery again. Both exist in the real world. Where are the similar complaints against the use of GOLD ammo. Nothing similar exists outside the game yet it is accepted (and cherished by a lot of Tier X warriors). Wargaming really need to decide whether they want WOT to be a simulation of tank warfare or an arcade game.
Do you have a brain sir ? Tanks have HIT P O I N T S . Doesnt get more arcade than that. Making realism an arugument is 0 IQ
Artillery isn't actually used against armored vehicles. Also APCR and HEAT exist, APCR is a "sabot" round but somehow modified to fit WG's description.
Great video. Bad news is 80% of the currently player base is the break in the loop as they fail to make any effort to learn. Also, less HE=more prem rounds… more cash for WoT
We know why the HE changes were coming in from when they were proposed. It is Russian server players in Chieftains and Object 279Es complaining that they were being shot by Polish heavy tanks using HE. Calling it "spamming HE" is laughable since the reload on the Polish heavy tank is so long. We have inpenetrable tanks now in many situations from many howitzer specific tanks in lower tiers. Seems a bad trade off. Thanks for the WarGaming apologetics video.
If that was true (and if there are truly THAT many players with the Chieftain and Object 279e who play them that often and care that much, highly doubtful) then they would have just reduced 60TP HE damage etc.
@@tarbox23 its true for all the hull-down (read most russian) tanks with no, or close to no, weakspot.
Wow a person that both is against HE spam but supports the idea of derp tanks instead of saying "fuck all derp tanks"
I am genuinely impressed
I was expecting another "old HE bad new HE good, cry about it KV-2 players" kind of a video
I still do think HE needs its splash back because it sure is really fun hitting tracks or view ports for no damage
totally agree! HE for zero damage feelsbadman
I don't think 60TP HE spam is as rewarding as you make it out to be. Also, when you compare old HE to a band-aid, you make it seem that without the HE changes, hull-down impenetrable tanks would not be recognized as a problem, even though a large part of the playerbase and perhaps WG too know this is a problem. iMO HE spam was a minor problem compared to others and the 1.13 update greatly aggravates other problems. I do like the new video style, looks cool. BTW, have you seen chems' video on the state of the game? He talks about interesting concepts.
The 60TP HE epidemic was a problem. Most players that shot an HE shell from the 60TP were only firing HE shells from it no matter what. It was just like the Type 5 before it. So just like he stated, it was an issue. Plus with the HE changes it opens up the door now for WG to start to change other aspects of tanks like the 279e, Chief etc. They said they wouldn't nerf them years ago but I wouldn't be so sure now since it's obvious they over perform and have enough good traits to not be hindered by most maps. If anything this HE rework is a blessing in disguise down the road.
@@TheSeattleGamer Yes, HE spam was a problem, but at nowhere near the level that you're suggesting with the word epidemic. The number of HE spamming 60TP's was lower than 1 per full T10 match (EU). Also the second part of your answer is the same as what 13Disciple said in the video but I don't buy that. Everybody knows that Chiefs and 279's are broken and you don't need HE changes to understand that. If WG would work on these more important issues first, and then changed HE, the backlash would be much less.
Great video 13. Thanks for taking a different approach usually not seen in the community.
It's quite simply a bad change that was poorly implemented. A large caliber HE shell should never deal 0 damage on top of not even causing critical damage.
HE spam was never a real issue, but was instead a option that could be used in various ways, and some having genuine real combat instances of the practicality of the use of HE.
-Light armor aka "soft" targets were a prime reason to choose to fire HE. HE caused higher damage and produced major critical damage to modules. This is one of the real world relatable instances of HE usage.
-Hull down tough targets could be peppered with large enough caliber HE to cause at the very least some critical damage to modules such as guns, tracks, optics, etc. A bottom tier Sherman with the 105 could actually cause issue to a hull down top tier T29 for example.
-Going along with the HE against tough armor... It's not the issue you paint it out to be in the video. Premium ammo spamming is what kills the super heavies, rendering armor much less useful. HE spam again, is not and never was the issue.
-Certain tanks live and die via HE usage i.e. KV-2, O-I, Pz IV H, M4A1
Now take into consideration that the vast majority of tank weaponry in the game that predominately fires HE... Most of those weapons are lower accuracy and firing rounds that travel at lower velocity, and you end up with them being highly effected by the changes.
Now, you can aim for weaker spots of armor, fire, and then watch as your shell hits for zero damage because of slight deviations in flight from RNG and you instead hit a "screen".
The Rhm with the 15cm was a go-to funmobile for me and now, it's relegated to a RNG dependent slot machine if I chose to keep running that setup. Instead, the 12.8 is back on instead.
Video wise: Production value was good, but the message is in error since the HE spam you quote was never an issue to start with... Now, the over usage of premium ammo, that's a issue.
Premium Ammo avail for credits has also to some effect done the same thing. Seeing less skill more gold....Just an opinion, but felt it needed said.
Yes, we very much agree on this. The current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage.
Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
@@13Disciple Yes. Make it!
I disagree, most players already know how to aim for weak points, its just that some don't want to lose a ton of credits just to have a 50% chance to pen a tank, I did not know anyone who complained about HE. The only people who benefit from this are hull down monsters/ tanks with no weak points. I really had no problem with He rounds, because if you are getting hit by them you can out trade them. All this is really doing is forcing players at high tiers to fire more gold. Wargaming is just covering it up as a form of balancing a broken mechanic, when HE was fine as it was.
Although I am not going to get mad at you for just having a different option.
To answer “if your video change my mind?” After 2 years of this vid (I just discover today lol) Yes but a lot of no in a way.
Yes: As your argument point of comparing to noob tube is a good one, getting HE spam is not fun and low skill in high power out in general dumb down the game. As well as encourage no learning.
No: “Hull down monster” HE spam is another tool of digging them out. Yes I agree may be you should not be able to stand against these tanks but on the other hand one monster should not be able to immune to 5-6 tanks and get away relatively harmless. In a perfect world there is always a flanking route and giving up a flank would not lose a game. There are also Gold rounds spaming the well armoured tanks most of the time would be beat anyway by gold except those monsters in which sometime turn the flank into trench style snipe a pixel “you push you lose” scenario.
In conclusion: Yes I think HE need a change but a lot of things need to change as well. Map, derp gun handling etc. all in all in my opinion WG was over correcting the problem thus creating new one. Somewhere between the old pre-nerf HE and the current one is the perfect point if all the other current factor remain the same. For a start I think the splash damage should be back but lowering the damage according to how far from the round hitting to the weakest armour being calculate for the damage so no more track or wheels absorb all the HE damage (armour not hit) which make more sense.
Thanks for your well considered points here. I think we agree on much of this :)
You could easily do a 10 minute video on the design of the 4005 and how the nerfs Wargaming did to it actually made the problem with it worse.
hmmm, help me understand how the issue with the FV 4005 is worse now. I think I know the argument, but I want to hear it from your point of view so I can verify if my assumptions are correct.
Another awesome video. Maybe WG needs you to help them explain why they're doing the things they do.
Can we talk about wheeled vehicles, and how they have nearly broken the game?
Well done 13Disciple!
This was 100% a fuck up. hope you learn this soon.
Feel free to elaborate…
my video? The patch? The illustration style? My commentary style? Could use more context please.
Did not change my mind, already thought HE changes were okay but may need a bit more work later. :) Derp gun accuracy, good thought.
Objective: Destroy enemy tanks
Test Action: Load premium ammo and shoot
Result: Enemy tank destroyed
How exciting...
This is precisely (in my opinion) the biggest problem the core gameplay loop now faces. Unless your target has incredibly thin armor... The current state of "Damage Focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices, regular and extra penetration. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. The differences between AP/APCR/HEAT are small in comparison to the penetration difference of regular and premium ammunition.
Maybe this exact loop should be my next couple videos...
Awesome video, now if they could make a decent map to play on.
I'm not loading any HE in my tanks now. There are larger issues that need to be addressed than HE. I am liking the games without arty, which seems like most games now.
In your opinion what is the largest issue that needs addressing?
Mostly what others are saying. EBRs need to be their own class and limited to 1 or 2 per. I'd like to see -1/+1 Matchmaking. I don't mind arties but I'd limit them as well.
good video, chuckled a little at the Cod example, but the people who spam HE will not listen the reason so the dislikes
Great video! I agree with you and I was looking forward to these changes ever since they started testing them. Finally, aiming and studying armor models is rewarded. Thank you for posting!
I hope the next step is the gold ammo
same can be said for gold ammo, does it matter if you can angle and know all the ways to block shells coming at you when your opponent can hit 2 and punch right through you with gold ammo, it needs to be removed from the game as it’s as bad as HE described in this video, the game needs people to know how to use their tank and armour properly. But WG swill never remove gold because people know it’s WG credit maker for them. Gold is as bad to the game as arty is…period !!
Agreed, premium shells are a one dimensional experience. They need to be fixed. Unfortunately you already identified the main problem, premium shells and armor are directly tied to how the game is monetized...
Best commentary on game development and why HE changes in WoT specifically had to happen from any of the WoT community contributors. Well done!
Good info, interesting production.
interesting as in good, or interesting as in, "meh" ?
@@13Disciple as is different. It's not bad. Not seen anything like this other then the tank stuff that the other person does. Not that I gotta clue how either, so yea. I think it's good and different.
well said ! Personally i enjoy the HE changes, and ive played my o ho after and its still pretty darn good with the derp gun ! Yes u pick your opponents more carefull than you used to (tbh the o ho was just aim at center mass and do huge dmg b4), i do agree that the actual derp tanks need a little buff in accuracy to make them better at aiming for weakspots (not too much tho lol) because it will encourage ppl to learn more about the armor and mechanics !
I really liked the video but it keeps bugging me on thinking about the gold shell that if you buy is better in every way and ends up being as problematic as the HE. But like you said there is still alot of things that needs to be worcked on and i dont think they want to delete things from the game like gold shell or op tanks to try and make a better and more viable meta for the game.
The current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage.
Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
@@13Disciple yep also i just watch your video on how to make credits and i made 3M credits thx m8
Well done!
In the real world there are always veterans and noobs. When I was a new player I learned from my mistakes and took with me the techniques of the better (veteran) players. I never complained much about how imbalanced the game was instead I accepted the fact that life itself is not fair. You have to adapt and evolve to survive in both the game and in real world. I love playing WOT. Different perspectives about the game are always welcome.
Doing 0 damage with HE is "no bueno". After the patch half of my HE shots dealt no damage at all ("screen not penetrated"). In KV-2 by the way.
Do you know what that means? Screen not penetrated?
It means your shot did not get through spaced armor.
Did you know tier 1 tanks can now damage a Maus with HE? As long as the shot hits directly on armor, it'll do *some* amount of damage. The KV-2 is perfectly capable of damage, you just have to either penetrate spaced armor or directly hit the armor model itself.
@@13Disciple I know what it means. Point is that KV-2 is even less reliable now. It is unacceptable. Guaranteed damage my *ss
@@arhangeo Guaranteed IF you hit the armor (or penetrate the spaced armor first)
@@diatonicdelirium1743 I know that. I still stand by what I said.
Amazing video, a real eye opener
I deinstalled because of the HE changes
not because they are simply bad, but as you said they took away a tool for me to at least sonewhat engage enemy tanks in hulldown or sidescraping positions
the thing is if you pull back and give up a flank the game is mostly already lost
you gotta keep these positions
also the fact that HE rounds doesnt track and do damage and wont splash damage any more is bullshit cause it takes skill out of the game
EU:
Germanicus_Prime
I wonder how I have a 55% winrate and have only fired HE a few times in 30k games to reset cap. I literally never fire HE. It is bizarre to me (but well explained by 13Disciple) that folks rely so much on it.
Skill?WG made sure to toss that out a long time ago.OP premium tanks,arty,RNG. HE shells were a roundabout way for casual players and cheapos to at least damage tanks in superior positions.None of your examples are rooted in practice.This video was made with only theory in mind,and instead of addressing the HE changes,you just bring up more problems.And "Ask yoUr DeVelopErs" is a garbage solution.WG only cares about money,and nerfing HE will force Premium ammo usage.
But the problem I have with HE is the fact that I CANNOT PEN WITH 105 HE THE ASS OF A TYPE 61.
Great explanation, i wish everyone would watch, would mean fewer ill-informed complaints
hey look it is Dan, wait he sounds funny.
I truly enjoy Extra Credits.
This was an EXCELLENT breakdown of it all. And I'm one of those unicums people are so worried about. I highly think this is a good explanation of a modified gameloop that actually solves a lot of problems both to new players and us veterans alike.
I agree on principal on the HE changes but I would still like non Arty HE to have a splash radius if it impacts Tracks or the Ground. It should splash to the nearest armor to the point of impact so that the mechanic we now have stays the same on a direct hit. This would still allow the imo skillfull use of HE in situations where someone is sidescraping or shooting below him for extra damage. Both imo require some skill to execute and would allow usage of knowledge of game mechanics. Great video and love the style, more please :D
Great analysis and reasonable logic 13! The very same logic applies to gold ammo (I still refuse to call it "special"). Gold ammo is an easy & (widely) acceptable way to make up for a skill/armor knowledge deficit. With it, a tanks armor is nearly irrelevant and a player need not understand the core knowledge of armor design and how to penetrate it. Yes, I know that there are many situations -- as with HE as explained in this video -- that "gold" is the proper choice. But the 100% loadout is a weak crutch and eliminates the other player core mechanic of knowing how and when to use their armor/side-scraping ability.
In other news, I LOVE the graphical presentation. And it is so specific to this subject that I have to believe that you did these drawings? If so, wow. Fantastic work!
@BrianS 2021 -- Reading comprehension. I said, "Yes, I know that there are many situations -- as with HE as explained in this video -- that 'gold' is the proper choice"
That said, it is impossible to deny the fact that the extra penetration afforded by gold ammo -- without any real penalty (i.e. no loss of alpha damage with the round as a counter-balance) -- is not a way for lesser skilled players to ensure/increase their ability to pen an enemy. In the very same way that 13 explained the HE spam in this video. I mean, why learn about tank weak spots when all I have to do is press "2" and I'm more or less good to go? Yes, 3-marking tanks (especially with mark #3 ) is one of the aforementioned "situations" where gold is probably/usually the correct choice.
Yes, you could *almost* replace every instance of this video where it says HE and replace with gold ammo. I 100% agree and fully believe that gold ammo is the biggest "unfun" game mechanic we have now. At least when it comes to the lowest level of core game play loops. The only other issue that comes close is premium tanks.
I did a video on gold ammo WAAAAAYYYYY back in the day. My opinions haven't deviated much so maybe you should check that video out. Perhaps I should do another more focused video in this new format. -> ua-cam.com/video/6PmNWmCEYo8/v-deo.html
Yes I illustrated all of this myself. On that same note if you know any artists that would like to be criminally underpaid to help my next video let me know lol.
@@13Disciple - Incredible illustration work. Absolutely incredible! I believe I have already watched that gold ammo video, but I'm gonna go check it out again just to make sure. And to me, the "gold ammo issue" is the biggest issue I have with WoT. I'll take three arty and too many light tanks in a game over the seemingly indiscriminate use and high percentage of gold flying around nearly every battlefield. Thanks 13! Great content.
I agree with most of the points you’ve made but HE should be called APHE to make players aware that it’s not true HE like on arty. In my opinion high caliber derp tanks should have retained there old HE round while replacing all “small caliber” rounds with APHE. You should continue this series! I’m definitely sharing this!
While I believe renaming APHE would add to the confusion, I can understand the point you are making. The game doesn't really do a great job.. or ANY job of explaining shell mechanics to the player at all. Which is the real problem here. Naming it APHE would assist in helping players understand *how* the new system works, but maybe they should have a better tutorial to begin with...
@@13Disciple I wanted to help someone new get into the game a few months ago, before the current iteration of the HE rework hit the Sandbox. They spent about *two hours* on the Bootcamp tutorial's final stage due to how its designed. It might not be entirely related but yes, a better tutorial would fix a lot of these problems - all of the information we take for granted is indeed found somewhere within the game (the gear button menu in the garage has more than 2 buttons, who knew?), but you shouldn't have to actively search for it.
@@13Disciple Fair! It's like the game as a whole needs to have a better tutorial on how its own mechanics work. :p
There WAS a proper solution to HE, well, if we pretend it was actually a problem... It was called a spall liner. Who no one fucking used aside me apparently. Except I used it on nearly all my heavies against artillery, not other tanks, not that it helped much again said artillery... Which was also now pretty much removed from the game. Like seriously, the only people I heard complain about HE are heavy tank users complaining they get hit by a high damage gun like the e100 or polish ht for 250-400 DMG, getting so insanely angry, but they seem to never even CONSIDER the option to use that spall liner which would cut that to 120-200. But worse, all of this completely ignores the matchmaking and the facts tanks don't come fully leveled, and using HE was one of the only ways to actually grind up semi reasonable exp and not be entirely useless in a +2 matchmaker. This is purely yo milk more money from players forced to use more gold ammo and frustrate them into buying more free exp because without HE stock tanks are even more insufferable. Well, give it a while, it's gonna be like back in 2015-16 when their main income earners game just reaches a critical point in depopulation and they decide to actually fix stuff instead of doing weird and useless changes or ones that milk for money. Then you'll get another jump and player growth once more, up to a sufficient level, then they'll fuck it up again by inaction and greedyness, the playerbade will dwindle once more, then fix... Rinse and repeat. But my point stands, this is a useless change, and they won't actually improve the game at all until most players run off like they did before.
Great video buddy - really well thought out arguments and constructive playback as to why the HE shell changes are positive.
Oh yeah btw the COD analogy is fundamentally flawed, cod has way less rng in bullet spread (but rof to make up for any) and no armor/armor penetration mechanics when bullets hit the player directly (ik some cod games have bullet penetration on body armor or objects). Wot has both of them. Cod also has respawns (unless you are a hardcore player in games with respwn disabled)
The comparison wasn't about how CoD approaches armor or damage or RNG. The comparison was about how CoD approached player power and balanced for skill using a specific tool. In this way the comparison makes sense. The video is about game design in general and referencing other works helps people understand fundamental game design systems with more context.
such a narrow way to address the HE changes in WOT
Am i the only 1 who never had a problem with a chieftain or 279?
apparently ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i might have a sample size problem (7.5k battles/7.55 avg tier), but i don't remember any particular engagements with either
chieftains are very rare in randoms because not many people have them and consistently stomping isn't fun, and you can always try to flank or retreat
and you can deal with 279s with heat into the upper area of the hull, which you can do quite often since they'll almost always overextend without cover
@@43615 honestly i am farming 279 like a maus xD
Maybe because you ARE the chieftain???
Not a huge problem if u playing same tier, using high pen HEAT, and the player doesnt know what he/she's doing ;-)
Lol, this video is too advanced for the common, average user. But an otherwise good general concepts video.
I don't play wot pc, i play blitz, but i think these changes will make high penetration HE/HESH stronger/op.
Because if you play with a tank like fv4005, you won't have to worry about hitting the track or spaced armor from the side, since 230mm is still enough to penetrate any tanks side.
Fun Fact: fv4005's gun in wotb is 3 shells autoloader 123mm gun with 460 alpha.
Excellent presentation and teases for future subjects. And big kudos to the animation team.
me.
I'm the animation team.
*send help*
Wtf is this...?
Skill4ltu, chems and Claus Kellerman videos are very gooood!
But this.... omg...:DD
Interesting take, but I consider the HE Spam "problem" mostly fiction with the exception of a handful of vehicles (Hetzer, 60TP, Foch 155, etc.), and even then largely situational. Realistically, there were very few players complaining about HE spam as it was just not that common, and when it was encountered it was often, as you pointed out, new players that are usually killed quickly and easily anyway. I think the biggest motivating factor for Wargaming was to remove the option of using HE instead of premium ammo for tougher targets...ironically coinciding with a trend of releasing a consistent string of hull down monsters almost impossible to dig out without extremely accurate shoots with premium ammo.
Nerfing HE to the point of being almost completely useless forces players to only use 2 types of ammo; standard and premium. It's just another gold/credit sink.
Agreed. We have the same problem again, with premium ammo, and in a way the problem is worse. You should check out my (old but still relevant) video on fixing premium ammo.
Then if HE makes the game boring and unskilled and unfair as you say, nerf APCR too, is the same thing, APCR make the game easier and boring and unfair and unskilled. I insist HE nerf is a way to make the skilled players happy, kill the playerbase and make more money to Wargaming by APCR.
This is precisely (in my opinion) the biggest problem the core gameplay loop now faces. Unless your target has incredibly thin armor... The current state of "Damage Focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices, regular and extra penetration. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage. The differences between AP/APCR/HEAT are small in comparison to the penetration difference of regular and premium ammunition.
Maybe this exact loop should be my next couple videos...
Awsome video, where can I find the armor model ingame or do I have to go to a third party website?
3rd party sight Tanks.gg
Another short coming of the game. Why it does not provide actual in game armor model viewing is a complex answer, but suffice it to say it's not good for players. Forcing players to leave your game to look up armor models on a 3rd party site like tanks.gg is bad game design.
Also, tanks.gg is the best place to discover armor models.
great now everyone spams gold. HE should do a little more damage. like 12 instead of 2.
Agreed. WG fixed one thing which really showed the bigger problem. Premium round spamming....
His voice doesn't match the cartoon.
Can you draw me a more accurate match?
@@13Disciple No its so well done that my brain expects to hear the voice of, James? From extra credits.
hah, yea I wish they would do this series, would save me a bunch of work lol
Imagine R. Lee Ermey voicing your videos. Yay would be effin great.
dude, wot fcking sucks, this absolutely ruined the T49 with derp gun.
damn and all this time i thought it was because arty was stunning too much, which wot said
The artillery' changes was a different change. the HE shells for artillery did not undergo the same change that it did for direct fire tanks. I suggest you go back and take a watch of the official wargaming video in the description.
@@13Disciple wow wrong with your answer there, arty HE suffers the same lame crippling nerf. As well as many other dumb implementations that are only further pandering to the Uniscum and crybabies.
@@triggrjockeyj7708 you do know arty he works like the old system still? Aka splash and looking for thin armor. Only now you need to think and not just spam 1 he type.
Great video thanks.
Quit watching. This entire video is nothing but WG propaganda. Have you even played with the HE rework? It doesn't appear that you have.
You are WRONG. 75% of the player base plays simply for fun. They will NEVER research ANYTHING because they don't care about winning or doing better, they just want to have fun, and DERP was FUN and REMOVING HE has made the game less fun for all but the extreme try-hards who did not like HE spam at them. ARTY and HE changes in the same patch following EBR's will be the DEATH of WOT's. WOT's will see a large decline in the player base as casual players quit as they see WG favoring UNICUMS by removing DERP and not nerfing GOLD rounds.
Boring 1 dimensional play =/= fun.
It's ok to disagree on what we consider to be fun tho.
@@13Disciple Don't you find it odd that shooting HE out of a 152MM gun into the tracks does not track a tank? Watching CIRCON 3-mark the KV-13 using DERP was FUN! CIRCON 3-marked all tanks that could use DERP, with DERP, and it was a lot of fun, but spamming GOLD to you is high skill and is not boring and 1 dimensional? QB had a game recently on Berlin where two IS3's were in windows just spamming GOLD at their turrets and RNG decided which penned, but you would consider that high skill, right, and fun too? Let's see you 3-Mark the KV-13 with DERP if you think it takes no skill. I have 60K games, but have quit except for Frontlines which I will play for roughly 40 hours each week it is live because it is soooo much fun (I have turbo's on all my FL tanks ready to go) and I also do Saturday Showdown and I will play during Holiday Op's and do any MARATHONS for free tanks, but aside from that, I am done with the game.
While we are going to disagree on the current iteration of HE. I think we can both agree the current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage.
Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
@@13Disciple The HE NERF has made premium spam even more. I took HE off most of my tier 10 heavies except for cap resets and replaced it all with GOLD rounds.
If you replace "HE" with "gold ammo," you'll have a pretty decent analysis for an element that's ACTUALLY problematic. Now there's literally nothing I can do against hulldown tanks (which are fucking everywhere) or sidescrapers. Maybe the damage on a nonpen was a little too high, but I firmly think it's too low now. I'm doing less than 10% damage on a nonpen. Why would I ever do that? I'd need dozens of shells just to deal with a single enemy, and there just isn't enough ammo space or time in the world to do that. It already took multiple minutes for high alpha HE tanks to destroy a single tank by "spamming" HE, now it takes more time than is available in a match, and thats if you've got decent HE. God forbid you're playing a normal, balanced tank (like the 5A for example) and it would take you all evening to deal with an enemy.
You liken the HE changes to taking off a band-aid covering real issues of map and vehicle balance. Maybe some century, proper map balance will come to WoT. They need to make maps larger than they've ever been historically, sans frontlines and grand battles. As for overpowered reward and premium tanks, I think WG would rather let the game burn to the ground rather than nerf their problematic cash cows. The problem with the band-aid analogy is that you don't take the band-aid off until the wound beneath has actually healed, something that has not and likely will not happen for a very long time.
I know you spent an unreasonable amount of time producing this video (honestly I prefer the old style, without all the animations), but I still think the HE changes are complete and utter dogshit in 97% of cases. Make HE work the way it used to (which was interesting and allowed for actual skilled play AND provided a crutch for weak players) but reduce the nonpen max damage a bit, from 50% to 35% maybe.
While we are going to disagree on the current iteration of HE. I think we can both agree the current state of "damage focused" ammunition choice is now fundamentally boring. You have 2 choices regular and extra pen. The only difference is what can you afford? Which makes the game BORING, and pushes it even closer to Pay 4 Advantage.
Maybe the next video should be about the biggest problem the game now has which is premium ammo (in my opinion).
@@13Disciple Solution for gold spam is lower damage and lower velocity for the gold rounds, give it proper disadvantages to offset the higher pen. For example, in the Obj140 the gold ammo is 30% slower (same damage), making it a last resort choice for me.