Do Neurotypical People Exist? | Neurotypicality & Capitalism Pt. 3 [CC]
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Welcome to episode 3 of our deep dive into Neurotypicality & Capitalism!
Today we're going to tie up our conversation by talking neurotypicality, if it actually exists, and what that means for... gestures vaguely at everything
Part 1 - • Where Did The DSM Come...
Part 2 - • Disability & Capitalis...
Sources & Resources:
Szasz The Myth of Mental Illness - depts.washingt...
We're all capable of divergence - wokescientist....
We’re all a little ND - wokescientist....
Narcissism is a byproduct of capitalism - wokescientist....
When I Was Borderline (Dr. Devon Price) -- if you read any of my sources here this is the one you should read !!! / when-i-was-borderline
Origins of personality disorders - blog.oup.com/2...
Instagram - livedexperienceeducator - / livedexperienceeducator
Instagram - sefscatterbrain - / sefscatterbrain
Instagram - drdevonprice - / drdevonprice
Instagram - myelasticheart - / myelasticheart
Instagram - drjesstaylor - / drjesstaylor
Instagram - autie.analyst - / autie.analyst
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Autism Resources:
Ultimate resource guide - www.disabledau...
How to support an autistic person - www.disabledau...
Help! I think I’m autistic - www.disabledau...
Unmasking/How to Start Over - www.disabledau...
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Also a new EP you can check out here - • Bold full
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Buy me a smoothie! - www.paypal.com...
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Start Over (Album) - li.sten.to/sta...
The Confused Linguist (Album) - li.sten.to/the...
Find me on Bandcamp - sydneyzarlengo...
Check out my #ActuallyAutistic playlist made of entirely autistic artists!
open.spotify.c...
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Hello my dears!
My name is Sydney and I’m an actor/singer-songwriter who writes music about my experiences being autistic, disabled, gay, gender fluid and in general, a human. My goal is to fill musical gaps and write about things people often forget to make music about. I’m also a vintage enthusiast and disability advocate (among other things). I’ve now released 3 albums and, most importantly, my favorite color is buttercup yellow.
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I'm not a fan of "neurotypical people don't exist", because it's obvious to me that most other people's minds do work very differently from mine. And I would very much like to know how their minds work, because just looking in from the outside it doesn't make much sense.
"Don't exist" could be taken to mean that this isn't a distinct category-it is an arbitrarily defined section of clinal variation, rather than the variation occurring in discrete "chunks". In that sense, I agree (but don't have a strong opinion & haven't looked at real data on the issue). "Don't exist" could also be taken to mean that the variation doesn't exist, and this I disagree with very strongly. These two senses are difficult to separate cleanly. If there isn't really a distinct category, OK, we would benefit from having better ways of talking about continuous variation *but* in the absence of an alternative and better set of terms and concepts, rejecting the term has the effect, intentionally or not, of implying that the variation doesn't exist. We're left, at least, without a way of talking about it rather than with a non-deal way of talking about it.
In any case, the people to whom we apply the label "neurotypical" certainly do exist, their minds don't work like mine, and I still want to understand them. Saying that neurotypical people don't exist seems to frustrate my desire for understanding, as well as possibly denying some of the relevant facts...
In my understanding the attempt to categorize all people into only two boxes: "those like me" and "those not like me" and then putting additional labels on top of that, is the issue here.
If you're in the potential scenario where you feel unable to adapt to some standard that the majority of people around you hold, you first try to figure out what's "wrong" or simply different about you, that makes your experience so difficult, so at first you get on the self-discovery path where you're actively looking for labels you can identify with in order to reach the answer to your initial problem.
When you identify with a certain label strongly and it seems to offer an answer to the reason of your suffering, because most of the people around you don't identify with the same label, you might feel tempted to use a "counter-label" for the rest of society who doesn't identify with your particular label, like "neurodivergent vs neurotypical", "autistic vs normal", "disabled vs fully able", "mentally ill vs mentally healthy", "socially awkward vs social", "maladaptive vs adaptive" and so on...
Even though other people will play along and mirror that "us and them" mentality, so they may agree with whatever label is suggested in the situation, so both sides can feel some relief about that differentiation, since there is now a word for the incoherence of the group that makes some sense, all of this doesn't mean, that it's the best assessment of the situation. The "us and them" mentality might be the real issue here.
"Do you fit in or not?" can be a good question to ask, but in many cases whatever comes after the "I can see I don't fit in with the" and "We can see they don't fit in with us", is what causes all sorts of unhealthy patterns and suffering.
What if there are simply more labels than a "mainstream" label and a "counter culture" label necessary to describe what's going on around in society? Then we get to the sphere of personality tests, where there are more labels and it's not a clear cut like "good and bad" or "right and wrong", the situation gets more nuanced and no one has to be blamed and ostrasized for having difficulties adapting to a particular scenario, suffering may not be as severe, but the underlying issue may never be addressed or even acknowledged, because whatever is causing trouble within the system, can be dismissed for a long time and covered up by constant rotation of external resources before anyone would be ready to accept a deeper underlying root problem that requires real change of the whole structure from the bottom up.
It's my personal opinion (maybe some people would agree) that the deeper underlying issue of group incoherence is usually our inability to empathise and make accomodations for other people if we feel insecure in our own situation. I think we all need some amount of special acomodations in order to function well within a broader environment, you could also call it individual needs and support networks. Every so called maladaptation might just be an adaptation to a lack of certain resources in the the background, that get dismissed because they are taken for granted by those who put up the standard or make a specific demand. Dismissing a problem of another person by making assumptions about their life, character and access to resources, while still expecting same outcomes is called equity and it's a dangerous model that almost guarantees a social breakdown in the long run.
It makes no sense to treat people like automatons that can be easily categorised, labeled and expected to perform on the same lavel of outcome, when we are unique individuals with very different backgrounds, needs and skills and our idiosynchracies only add up over time.
TLDR:
If we want to live in a more healthy society, we need to be more tolerant, kind, patient, accomodating, supportive, helpful, compassionate, understanding, respectful and appreciative of eachothers differences. We need to support eachother in what we can do rather than shame for what we can't and we need to be willing to make eachothers lives easier without immediately questioning how deserving someone is of a specific accomodation. We need to also hold people, who exploit the weaknesses of others, accountable for their malpractise. A power imbalance is a responsibility to care for the weaker, it's an opportunity for compassion, not a free pass for exploitation and legal immunity.
@@Seamannon I think you & I agree with regard to trying to split human variation into neat categories. Part of what I was getting at is that there is variation we need to be able to talk about, and we have some labels we use to talk about that variation-but those labels probably don't mark hard boundaries in the variation. The labels are useful, but we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming everyone in one bin is the same, or that people in different bins don't still have many things in common.
Regarding "inability to empathise" - Empathy works by assuming other people's minds work like yours. When the minds of others are different, empathy fails. Recognizing differences-or, more often, imagining differences that don't exist-can be a cause of enmity between groups. Recognizing differences is also a non-negotiable requirement for real empathy. If you hang out on one of the fora where allistic people ask autistic people for advice in understanding their autistic children, half the posts boiil down to: "I did this thing that would have been *great* for me, but it made my child miserable. WTF?" They think they are empathising with their children, but they are not. They don't understand how their children differ from themselves.
Regarding 'it's not a clear cut like "good and bad"' - That's also true of autism, as I hope you're aware.
Regarding holding people accountable - This is an area where the limits of my understanding of neurotypicals & other allistics becomes relevant. If I were sure the minds of others work the way mine does, I would be certain that holding people accountable-at least in the usual punishment-oriented sense we have been taught to call "justice"-is merely vindictive. It's the engine that keeps cruelty running. Punishment creates punishment. Kindness creates kindness. However, the fact that so many people apparently believe that punishment is effective makes me uncertain. Maybe it does work on other people, I don't know.
Regarding treating people as unique individuals - I agree, in theory. In practice, there are just too many humans. I don't know what the limit is on how many people you can know as individuals, but for me there's no question that it is some tiny fraction of the number of people who live within a mile of me. I treat most people as basically fungible units of humanity because I don't have a choice, there are too many.
I can see where the frustration comes from when interpreting this lecture. Hearing it for the first time made me feel like, “If everyone is neurodivergent, does my diagnosis even stand valid? Am I not special?”
But I had to think about it. Neurotypical guidelines are placed by the unrealistic expectations everyone else has on each other, and just because they themselves are trying too hard to conform to said guidelines, doesn’t mean it’s actually them.
Further more, I had to remember the definition of “neurodivergent”. It’s structured to mean “a brain that differs from everyone else’s.
I had to remember that autism is not, and never will be, the only way of cognitive functioning that classifies as different. Everyone has a special mental function unique to them, whether it’s a type of autism, ADHD, OCD, schizophrenia, seasonal affective disorder, etc. (there’s a whole list of them beyond my knowledge, I’ll have to look it up).
I bet neurotypical guidelines were set in place because we as humans don’t like the “chaotic mishmash of individuality”. Therefore, we were taught to pretend the chaos isn’t there, which caused it to fester.
If we continue this social pattern, we’re never going to learn how to show our realness. But if some of us are bold enough - which I would like to be - we can choose to be brave and let everyone see who we are. That’s the only way we’re ever going to tell who our true friends are and who we don’t click with.
Some people will love the real you, and some people will hate it. But I’d rather sift through the people who hate me so I can connect with the people who vibe with me!
I agree. Neurotypical = compliant to the system. Struggling to adapt to an oppressive, unjust system or, even worse, questioning the system = some sort of disorder that the system labels you with.
The question "Do neurotypical people even exist?" has been plaguing my mind for a while now. I searched it a few times and came across your video series. Very insightful things to consider about the systems in place governing our lives...
I like your research etiquette and spiffy thoughts, so will definitely subscribe. :)
Just found your channel & subscribed after listening to this excellent presentation of ideas. I'm 67 years old & have just been given an autism + ADHD diagnosis. It is helpful to finally understand myself through that lens, so there is benefit in getting given some 'labels & their meanings' to describe these 'coping mechanisms' I've been utilizing, but I totally agree it is the capitalist system & the social structure it creates that is driving everyone mad.
When I look back at my life & all the people I've interacted with, so many of them actually expressed autistic traits, & it makes me wonder if there are way more so-called 'autistic' people in the world who are all just masking & trying to be 'neurotypical' - & even if the whole notion of neurotypicality is just a myth. My theory is that most all 'disorders' are due to chronic stress & trauma, & that mental imbalance or 'disordered-ness' is due largely to a dysregulated nervous system. I think the only mental illness and personality disorder label that should exist is 'Nervous System Dysregulation Disorder'.
I've now watched a total of two minutes and fifteen seconds of your content, and I'm 100% in. Subbed.
This was great to watch! I love when videos are able to take feelings I have on discrepancies I notice and form them into coherent thoughts and ideas that I never realized existed (or were valid!).
This is the first video of yours I have watched and I have to tell, I love it. I'm sure I could argue with you quite a bit, but for sure it does not change the feeling that there is something profoundly true in what you say. And it's said with amazing fluency and consistency. I could argue on blaming specifically capitalism for the situation. As kid I lived in 'comunist' country and fact that it was not 'capitalism' did not created particularily differend tastes of psychological disfunctions. I believe it is all about the power game consequences, not so much about how you call the system or what ideology do you choose. I believe it is much deeper than recent popular fixation on labelling. Still - I agree that the things are not getting better in today's 'capitalism'. I would argue on considering DSM constutively 'wrong'. I live in Europe, maybe the DSM is not so omnipresent here, maybe it's about alternative 'labelling systems', maybe about psychiatrist who are not so eager to label and subscibe the drugs, about psychologists who keep healthy distance from any 'labelling', focused on helping instead. Maybe DSM is no so omnipotent here and used according to it'a actual purpose... I have quasi-scientific background (differeny one) and I consider psychology also quasi-science and psychiatry a crawling science, but... this is the way we learn, this is the way the knowledge arises. Throught constant insuficiency of methods and results, to something slightly more consistent. Still - I agree DSM is used abusively, impacting our language and ways we see otherwise 'obvious' things. Linking it's deeper purpose with power and workplace abuse feels to me an very attractive idea. From other hand, as someone deeply involved in the work relations, I have the feeling that this is the case of almost any sound idea in this word. And if is not - soon will become. Therfore I would not demonise DSM more than I would demonise politics, religion, money or our human need to live better and have more than the neighbour. The same time it is a common reference for the people who are trying to understand better who we are. They rarely take it literally and they seem to have overal conclusions not so different of yours. Well. Corrupted, but still a reference.
I shall stop here. I love this video. I will see the others, will observe how it changes my understanding :))
Sorry for my english BTW. *prescribe
Indeed! Well said! The intelligence and compassion of what you're saying is a breath of fresh air. I've been dancing around similar ways of thinking for a long time, but I think you've nailed it way better. Of course, the ideas aren't new: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - J. Krishnamurti. But you contribute a lot of original insight and synthesis and I like the way you balance thought and feeling in your presentation. Thank you!
I literaly got accused of standing for everything Stalin stood for criticising capitalism. But I guess that's the reality if your country was in Eastern Bloc that people are to blind to see that another system is flawed if they or their recent ancestors were opressed by another system.
What system would you prefer exactly?
I’m so glad I found your channel/content 💚🥺
Yeah, to say people aren't doing well under american predatory multi-national corporate oligarchic rule, and rise of the hyper real is an understatement. It's safe to say there serious problems are now more the norm, than anything else. Americanism has pushed individualism way too far, and I just don't know how we pull back from the inevitable decline of the empire and our standard of living, as the democracy has been fatally compromised. Language and labels seem a privilege, and very much beside the point at this stage.
Good video.
Made me think, we need absolute overhaul to our Brave New World of americanism, and you do have to put the blame with america, and it's Oligarchy. I just hope we got a retry.
I kinda agree about personality disorders too, there are some psychologist, such as doc kirk honda , psychology in seattle who Heavily rely on them, yet he admits he doesn't know about autism, and I watched his personality disorder deep dives and the some skitch s***
👍
Amazing! Great work Sydney! Id love if this were a short blurb, especially where you go through each diagnosis category's assumptions/flaws. Your work is brilliant and well organized!!
I’ve just come across your videos. Some very interesting view points, some I’ve been talking about for quite a while (I’m 50). There’s much to explore though I do disagree with some, resist others and agree with more.
✌🏽
This was a really good video, thanks for making it
I came to the same conclusion months ago while I was on a mushroom trip 😅😂
Hell yeah 🏆😄✨
Happy to have found this. I think all of this really aligns with how I feel about these things.
Giraffes are, indeed, rad.
AAAAAA THANK YOU
Thank you!! I’ve been going insane trying to find someone who shares these thoughts. I have no solutions to offer at this time, but just not feeling is the step I’m focusing on.
A more inclusive world¿?... teaching ppl their worth from when they are young and in school... basic social skills, healthy coping mechanisms, work on healthy rlps, know how to get out of unhealthy rlps, I think you´re onto something,😀 but still you are dismounting a system that has power, If everyone since they´re young gets all the tools, info, and resources and has better coping mechanisms we will be taking jobs away from the po-po, our societies will take a long time to change these things.😊
As a plane, cat and dog purrson I detest being labeled by otters. I do however chill in boxes of my chooseing. I currently chill in the ADHD, and autism box, but Im annoyed with the addicted to youtube box, Ive tried biting it, but it hasnt destroyed the box yet.
thank you
Watching a little later….but just so I understand correctly, your thoughts and research of if we look at the way the society we have built for ourselves doesn’t work at all and the worsening effects it has on every human as a byproduct, called capitalism, and adding in humans aren’t designed to function this way, then when you put people in already accommodating spaces then the need for personality disorder labels and neurodivergent labels wouldn’t be needed. Right?
You mentioned a few but is there a few books you recommend or articles to read alongside Devon Price’s and the links you’ve put in the description box that gives further examples of how or the way we would interact with each other without relying on personality disorders descriptor’s or neurodivergent descriptors ? Classifiers? Of any kind? I hope this makes sense. Thanks Sydney for taking time to read and maybe respond.
I have to somewhat disagree. In statistics things tend to be on a bell-curve. The middle section of the bell curve is the average, the "typical". The edges are the outliers. And the world would be more difficult for those outliers.
Having said that, capitalism is an screwed up system.
I FEEL SO FUCKING SEEN RIGHT NOW
Interesting video! Good job!👍 Have me thinking! 🤔
I completely agree!!
Some people do not grow or change. Some people are too deeply entrenched in their mal-adaptive coping strategies and actively hurt those around them because of this. My father hasn't changed in the face of evidence to his effects, and I doubt he ever will. He's enough sycophants around him that he'll never accept responsibility for the shit he stirred up.
you are in year 3024
wow i love this
I'd call myself neurotypical even though I'm not cuz it doesn't matter ultimately
Cool, subbed
Everyone has a mental illness. I agree with you about everyone being a little bit autistic.
Yes and no. If you want to get technical, no two brains are identical so in that sense, no. However, if you go by common usages of the terms neurotypical and neurodivergent, which usually refers to developmental conditions and largely benign diagnoses that may not need to be managed medically for the person with these conditions to live content it, then yes. Yes we do exist. We also don’t have some charmed life where we never have trauma, never develop mental illnesses that affect our daily life, and we don’t always fit in with the masses. We are also capable of understanding people with different life experiences, even if some NT people have used that excuse before. We cannot always understand like we have first hand experience with your personal condition , but many of us have felt like an outsider, or had an experience where we felt awkward and didn’t know how to respond. We can dislike things for what seems like no deeper reason than it annoys us. We can struggle in certain unavoidable settings, and we can be outsiders who get targeted for being different. It’s just not due some variant in our natural development when these things happen. As for me, I have mental health diagnoses that don’t fit the colloquial use of neurodiversity. Sometimes my mental mapping does affect how I respond in situations, though I hit all the developmental marks growing up. Sometimes my physical health makes me feel like an outsider because I have an autoimmune disease, and that can be just as alienating as any mental or developmental struggle. I have had a lot of trauma, and I have social anxiety. It’s not about my social skills, but my past trauma. I fear meeting new people who may harm me.
As a human being you fit into neurodiversity because it includes all brain variations. Y'might mean "neurodivergence" and there are a lot of conditions that fall under that.
What system do you propose instead of captiralism? Caoitalism is not bad per se, this is freedom! The problem is the dysregulation and corruption of dyaregilated capitalism! With stock exchange dictating everything and bigger companies ruling over everybody. If capitalism were regulated with law it would work actually cos socialism and communism are as dangerous as dysregulated capitalism if not more