Footnotes: 1: See Destiny's Duality of Light and Darkness ua-cam.com/video/pQAtdcS6ID0/v-deo.html 2: See Understanding the Final Shape and the Witness ua-cam.com/video/Ioq9cPaaUeM/v-deo.html
as someone willingly doing teaching runs every evening for SE on LFG for the last few weeks, I get the part about verity being frustrating, and in the same way it also pushes me to get better at dealing with others and at Destiny. you nailed a lot of my own points honestly I'm super down to run it with anyone seeing this of any level of either skill or familiarity :)
@@denny8422 honestly I'd love to give it a shot one day. Never got a chance as my friends attempted day 1 but I didn't have any time to try it with them, and this was before the mass exodus of players over the past few months. I want to try get back into the game especially so that I can get the season pass done, and yeah I really do want to try Verity too!
I think the reason why house salvation was cut was because at the end they all just became scorn. They never believed in the final shape, only revenge, and the only purpose the witness for them was to be scorn and nothing more
I also seem to remember the witness seeming to be much harsher to races that received gifts from the traveler so not solely accounting for house salvation failing while under the witnesses banner it makes sense that it would turn the into near mindless zombie puppets
@ I also think it’s the reason that a fallen or the Herald of finality is the witness trying to mock us because humanity has been fighting them for generations and they’ve also been blessed by the travelers light before us
I love that this raid demands perfect execution because the Witness itself is about perfection. & As someone who completed the Seal with similar struggles u mentioned, I believe u can do it! Only thing I haven't done is a Flawless yet, hoping I can get around to it one day
When i run this raid i make it a rule for myself to run with 3 friends as it basically ensures at least half the team knows mechanics so we can carry/teach players with less knowledgeable and it helps so much with verity
Great video essay. I loved playing SE with my clan for weeks, doing the challenges on master and learning the encounters with one another. I only needed three triumphs for iconoclasm since I missed a few sessions. And none of them played after act 3 of echoes, and like you say it’s uncomfortable playing with random people since there are so many strategies. I wish I could hop back in because it’s a great raid.
regarding timing, i would much much much prefer a "late" review that is well thought out over a "timely" one. that being said, all of your videos have consistently been incredibly well polished and thoughtfully measured :] i'd watch anything you upload
I’d agree as well. Plus there was so much SE content when the raid came out. It’s nice to see this video now that I myself have had more time to solidify my thoughts and emotions towards this raid
Only did one run of Salvation’s Edge but still loved the vibes and loot. I think there’s some fat that needs trimmed (3rd encounter feels like a lot of unnecessary padding) but it’s just awesome
4th feels that way because it was made during the delay but it's still top 5 encounters imo. I honestly feel like encounter 3 feels like unessecery padding as it's just a larger scaled 1st encounter
Just like Vow, Salvation’s Edge makes sure that every player is involved in each encounter which makes it all the more rewarding to complete. This was by far my favorite raid seal to chase as each new run always made me understand and appreciate the raid as a whole. Raids like RoN never sat right with me as there aren’t enough jobs for everyone to have which makes your first completion feel bitter sweet if your team just stuck you on ad clear. A good raid should make every member of the fireteam feel needed
I remember watching the live streams of worlds first and watching everyone get stuck on the shape/statue phase. Even when the first team was ahead of everyone. It took around 6 hrs for everyone to catch up. Watching that phase made me realize I’ll never be able to get the raid done
I'm missing only 3 things for Iconoclast, and I've been struggling to get a full fireteam the past 6 months - Full Solar - Full Arc - Verity complication
So, funnily enough, this was the first Day1 raid I actively passed on the idea of doing, with an entire teams worth of guardians joining me on the sentiment. This was after doing and clearing every one since Deep Stone. Originally, I was up for the idea, even considering the idea of taking Annual Leave (Time Off) in order to 'prepare' for doing it. Then the timing shifted such that instead of the usual cadence (Week 1 Release week, Week 2 Friday Contest Raid Weekend), it shifted to having the Raid drop the same week the expansion released, and I decided that, *even within time off* I didn't want the focus to be Wholly on Destiny just for a good performance in the Day1 raid, meaning there were essentially 2 1/2 days of grind available to complete the campaign and gear up and grab some additional, new, tools. Consequently, decided that I didn't fancy the 'additional work' to go in for contest mode, and a few others within my original team, and the clan that have done previous Day1's, all, seperately, decided to sit it out. And boy, did that transpire to be a good decision. I've gotten older, already being an Adult since Destiny originally started, and valued my time a fair bit more. The team that did have a go, that I have also played quite consistently with previously, cleared 1st, 2nd and 3rd and got stuck at 4th Verity. Not a bad performance. But it reinforces that I was glad I decided to just skip the 'spoilers' and decide on a blind run of the normal difficulty raid after that weekend. Which *still* caused us to get stuck at Verity before deciding we didn't want to be there all night, let's go and just look this bit up. But this is the thing with this raid. Even on normal mode, it demands a fair amount of 'perfection' to have any sufficient progress. That sounds fine in principle, until you remember two critical pieces of information: 1. These are players of varying skill levels, that you might not have interacted with before. 2. Some of these players actually *WORK* for a living, meaning for all of those players that are 'fresh', you have to contend with me having just done 8 to 12 hours, and wanting to 'get something done' Number 2 isn't a 'dig' at anyone that isn't employed, as much as it may sound that it is, nor is it a dig to say a student that finds themselves with quite a bit of time. But in making a quite expansive raid (this is a good thing), in addition to making it a very 'near perfect execution' heavy raid (this is a bad thing the longer it goes on), the combination makes it incredibly tiresome - and unapproachable in a 'casual' 'raid night' environment. It's as if every encounter was in some part Exhibition from Vow of the Disciple, or Vault from Last Wish. Individually, the encounter(s) are a fairly good puzzle, involving clear communication, good timing and an understanding of the puzzle at large (albeit Vault was brute-forced on Day1). But between the tight timer for Encounter 1 (generally helpful if you know where the plates are going to spawn and what it's signifies is, the Overload). Some of the ad annoyances in Encounter 2 (Yay, Duskfields & Burning, my favourite combo - unless you're Prism Titan and you just slide melee annihilate everything on spawn) Encounter 3 is fairly 'free' but can occasionally trip people up if they accidentally shoot the wrong pillar. Encounter 4 is a clusterfuck at the absolute best of times, even with experienced teams, especially if you haven't 'practiced' in a while, or are tired, or have someone die and suddenly have to 'shift mindset' and go from 'making lock' to 'making key' and trying not fuck that up despite the fact you may have been handling fundamentally different shapes not 2 seconds before - all whilst making sure you aren't smashed by Ogres/Knights. And then it culminates in The Final boss, which isn't particularly awful, it's quite grandiose, but by this point in the raid your thinking power is probably going to be taking a hit (especially if, as I mentioned before, you're trying to do this 'after work/school' where you're already partially drained). Now, it doesn't bother Players like me, because I already went and acquired the Raid patterns, and most of my group had the patterns and the exotic drop. I'm still missing the exotic, and despite owning every Exotic Weapon and Catalyst up to this point (Excluding Salvations Edge), I don't see the point in going to get it, just to make my Swarmer Warlock 1% better. But for other players wanting to experience it... yeah it's 'a bit more involved' than most of the other raids. Now that's fine for a 'send off', and a bit of an 'homage' for the super hardcore playerbase. It was a hard raid, and a hard day1, with the lowest clear numbers ever(?). But it's also the least played raid, by miles. You can't help but think, in a situation where only a fraction of the playerbase raids at all, that this may ultimately have been a step too far. I'm glad the Destiny Content Creators got a great deal of content out of it. And I'm glad those that enjoyed the challenge, whether they completed it or not, felt successful. But it isn't a 'consumable raid'. If I have had a long day at work; I'm not playing this raid - I don't want to have to put conscious thought into my every move AND have limited ways of salvaging my, or others fuck ups. I can play literally any other raid after a long day at work, except this one. I'm not into something to be jerked around with tight executions and limited opportunities to correct mistakes, that are also reliant on 5 other people doing the same thing. If you don't have many other priorities, and/or can set aside the time, fair enough. But there is absolutely a reason this is the least played raid, and it isn't the fact the player numbers have plummeted off a cliff, this was a problem well before the decline.
I'm outright just never going to do the raid, I think. Watching it, it looks brilliant and as you said the lore is perfect, but I can't say it looks very fun on the gameplay sense. Besides that, exactly as you said, people want the comfortable teams for a raid like this. Kind of means the bunch who don't have a group who already play struggle to get into groups for this raid, which I honestly understand this time around.
I would love to run it, but every team that “teaches” me ends up kicking me or not making it passed the first encounter. I gave up on doing new raids since everyone I run into is super toxic or they can’t work together
There is something to be said for a hard raid being a great one. Yes, the storytelling through difficulty along with the actually really well done encounters is an amazing first time experience... but that's just is - its the first time experience. The only encounter I actually look forward to on repeat runs is ironically enough the Witness itself, and its actually rather simple why; despite having not as challenging mechanics, not everyone needs to do them, its surprisingly teachable with a few runs, and the fight itself is engaging enough to make those mechanics challenging enough to do given its on top of fighting for your life. You likely won't immediately 1 phase, its rewarding AND challenging enough, and the fight itself is just epic alongside having very significant story significance. Everything else is too challenging or complex for an LFG group (which a lot of us engage with) to do. The 1st and 3rd encounters are ok for reasons stated in the video, but the 2nd and 4th encounters have serious problems that make the very difficult if you don't play them with a regular, solid team (which not all of us have the luxury of doing, which is part of why we turn to LFG). The 2nd encounter has a problem where if someone slips up somewhere, you will likely fail due to lack of time remaining (either in the phase you're in or the next due to not having enough time). 4th encounter... well, that one was explained. I also enjoy 4th encounter, but I cannot for the life of me learn how to dissect, nor do I have people willing to run a few times to teach me, which very few people seem to be willing to do for a variety of reasons. I can usually tell how the rest of the raid will go based solely off of how fast we clear the 1st encounter, because if the team has proper chemistry, gear, and competency, they will overcome the rest of the encounters (maybe barring 4th). If any one of those are missing among even just 1 person, then I just don't want to bother. Salvation's Edge's difficulty is ultimately a double-edged sword. When you want the challenge, and you have 5 other people who are also willing and capable of taking it on, then its a blast! When you don't, you better have a lot of time and patience for BS.
I attempted DSC, Vow, and Root day one but I haven't touched Salvation's Edge at all yet. I regret not trying day 1 too but life was just way too busy. I also havent spoken to my raid team in such a long time. I do want to get this raid done at some point, as well as the latest dungeon. but life is so damn busy. I miss playing destiny but there is nothing remotely exciting to do that is solo and I can only play solo things because i dont have time to do the raids or dungeons anymore.
SE has been a weird balance for me, where I'm not comfortable going with Randoms, but I still need to go for the exotic (and maybe complete some challenges. I'm not quite ready to jump back in, but at some point I'll open my hel to anyone who still needs their runs (and maybe I can sherpa once I finish learning the Dissection part of Verity, as that's the only part of the raid I still don't know how to do yet).
I love Salvations Edge because the only way to beat it is to truly embody the Traveler's ideal - it demands that you work together as a team, communicating, respecting, trusting, cooperating. Anything less, and you will lose every time against the Witness and its Final Shape.
After many thinking of how the witness has been defeated, I can’t help but remember the time he litterally make finger moves to one shot 3 guardians in their ship, but in the raid he just makes lasers like Rhulk ? If the witness was lore accurate to its power in the raid, we wouldn’t stand a chance, the moment we would have been in front of him he would have straight up knifed us and the ghost.
The only way I can really make it work is that the Witness is too focused on enacting the final shape and isn’t paying much attention to us. Think like you are working on a car and a fly keeps buzzing around, you swat at it but you are focused on fixing the car. Even though you could get the fly, that would ruin your focus on the car.
yeah but that wouldn't have been interesting, personally, I justify it as us getting prismatic somehow made us immune to the Witness' flick, or that the Witness has tried, but the Traveler just pulls us back together.
I feel like it was degined to be the Hardest D2 raid day one but bc of that you have the most limiting raid bc any firetream is gonna require KWTD and multpile clears becuse of the insane learning curve .
I'll render another comment to synthesize its problems: Encounter 1 Points of failure - Wipe Mechanic = Timer Expiry Failure to find the activate plates fast enough. (You lose time). Mistiming the plate step; spawns a Miniboss level Ad that must be nuked before plate mechanic can be re-performed. (You lose time). An awkward Ad spawn of Strand Psions (or Stasis Psions) can either yank you away from the Plate at a critical moment, or prevent you from having enough mobility to stand. See above. You accidentally collect more than 3 resonance energy (This is just an additional point of failure). You die to the ads; if you lose 2 people such that you no longer have res tokens and/or not enough tokens to revive them, the encounter is almost impossible to do on time. Compare this to 'other' Encounter 1 Points of Failure - I'm going to gloss over the 'dying to ads' as this is present in all raids, so for contrast, Encounter 1 of SE, has 4 individual points of failure, not related to dying to ads too many times (which is every raid) DSC; you shoot the wrong fuse / shoot the fuse before it's called out DSC; you have the fireteam die to incorrect plate shooting in basement. VoW; you take too long to clear all 3 rooms and the sand fills the totem. VoW; you fail to clear the adherents and they fill the totem with sand. VoW; you have somewhere called out the wrong symbols and/or get the combinations wrong too many times. KF; you fail to have someone standing on the annihilator totem frequently enough to prevent the wipe. KF; you hold the buff too long and it expires. Crota; you hold the buff too long and it expires. Crota; you die to environmental hazards (Pits, Enemies, Pendulums, Exploding Lanterns) Crota; Time runs out. VoG; I actually can't remember the first encounter very well all of a sudden, but it can't have more than 2 points of failure; letting the wyverns sacrifice themselves. VoG; whatever the 2nd point of failure is LW; failure to push Kalli to damage phase. LW; failure to have the fireteam enter the doors more than once. Garden; time runs out Garden; failure to keep the nodes chain activated consistently. RoN; time runs out (You don't kill the Psions & Tormentors fast enough) Every other raid has between 1 and 3 points of failure for that same equivalent encounter. However, in almost every instance I mentioned, there is ample opportunity to 'correct' at least one of the potential problems. DSC; verify the person scanning is identifying the plates correctly; verify the person operating is identifying the plates correctly. [Alternatively, swap some roles] VoW; basically same principle as DSC, check they know their symbols, if in doubt have the fireteam converge on the 'correct' totem and have the more confident players shoot them. KF; the buff respawns on death, and can be grabbed from the starting location, you can also eager edge skate to deal with activations, with modern healing tending to offset damage in the room. Crota; you only really need 3 or 4 people juggling the buff if it really comes to it, you can also do things like skate to deposit spots if the team just needs a slower 'escort' to 'reset'. VoG; I'd be surprised if this went wrong, but most sacrifice locations can be seen by at least one other location and can fire on the target. LW; you can coordinate doors a bit better and ensure understanding of the plates. Garden; same sort of premise for the above timer related encounters RoN; with 5 ad clear it really shouldn't be an issue to 'nuke' tormentors. How do you salvage the first encounter of Salvations Edge? You maybe check people understand where the plates are going to be based on conditions. But beyond this, it literally comes down to personal performance as it involves: Not Dying Not getting frozen/yanked by suspend Not picking up too many resonance Not failing to close on time Not being too slow on killing ads Not being too slow on killing tormentors. This is literally the case for every single Encounter of Salvations Edge. Compared to other Raids, where you can have 'hero moments' (especially as a Sherpa), where you're capable of preventing the wipe from going off. In Salvations Edge, unlike almost any other raid, if something goes 'badly wrong', you can't really salvage it. If a dissector dies in the room in Verity, you suddenly have to shift mentality from outside to inside; AND, you don't necessarily know immediately how much work has been done, and need time to assess where you're at, further losing time. It's technically possible to dissect in such an instance, but it's just easier to get it right first time. If you think about Salvations Edge compared to any other raid, the amount of insurmountable points of failure, even in normal mode SE, are excessively high compared to ANY OTHER RAID. There is absolutely a reason why SE is the least played raid by miles. It is a fun pinnacle raid. But it is not a fun raid to repeatedly replay.
"Zenith is the best boss fight with riven the only contender." Am I the only one who thinks this is a hot take?, aksis phase 2, especially on 390 and with the challenge, is my absolute favorite, and I never see people mention it
God… I’ve never beat it, and it’s eating at me… I’ve beat all other raids, yet I can’t bring myself to even attempt this one. Sigh… This might prove quite “fatal,” to my opinion of myself…
Salvation's Edge is a raid I sort of hate. Having to LFG it ruined any chance at it being fun for me. I like the first three encounters, but the last two just really don't do it for me. I think needing perfection just doesn't work if you're not with people you know and like. Because the inevitability is that there's someone in your group who is That Guy and now Verity will take 6 hours and there's nothing you can do about it. The only clear I have of it came down to luck on a run where the game never gave That Guy an inside room or made them the last person alive in the big ghost movey phase. Witness is a cool enough fight, but I feel like there's nothing for most players to be doing outside of the DPS phase. It's the same problem with a lot of encounters, where you get people doing the fun little puzzle, and then a couple who have to sit and twiddle their thumbs until boss says it's shooty time. I haven't kept up with the sandbox that much since I did my one clear on like week 2 or 3, but it was extremely unfun to just be told that I have nothing I can do ability wise as a titan to damage the boss, since it sits outside on a death box and years of design has cemented the class as punch man who punch good. Combined with the insane state Nighthawk Still Hunt was in at the time, and it seemed like my choice was to either not contribute to the team, or just never play one of the three classes in the game. Overall, I love the story and aesthetic and everything else about the raid, I just feel like the latter half gets way too into being long and difficult when done blind, sacrificing the fun of playing it after that in the process. Sorry if this comes across a little too negative or heated, I just haven't really spoken about my thoughts on the raid before.
Yeah, it’s overrated and content creators like this are blinded by their Day 1’s and this being the end and all. Titan is useless for most of it, means it’s objectively not even close to the best. And don’t get me started on the gear…
@@bannedmann4469 I feel like that's not really fair to assume. I think the first half of the raid is pretty good, the cool confusing Escher room of the first encounter, the sword DPS boss (at least it was last time I checked) and the third encounter are all awesome and I'd like to play them again. People can like things that you or I don't, doesn't seem particularly productive to call them blind for it.
I hate this raid because I won’t go get a boss cp for my “clear” I want the full package and NOBODY is willing to teach the 4th encounter. SE has to be the worst raid Bungie has ever made because EVERY SINGLE OTHER RAID players are willing to teach and won’t quit on you halfway through before even ATTEMPTING the 4th encounter. I hate this raid because it has some of the best legendary loot in the game and no one cares enough to teach it. I wonder why destiny as a franchise is dying.
I've raided for four years now, and I've gotta say; this raid is one I have never completed. The armor and weapon designs don't really click, but the memento looks fire. The exotic is interesting, but the overall experience frustrates me. The mechanics seem doable, but the Dread enemies just piss me off. Ultimately, I've never made it past the second encounter, and I don't know if I'd even want to pick the game back up again, much less do the raid if I did.
Footnotes:
1: See Destiny's Duality of Light and Darkness ua-cam.com/video/pQAtdcS6ID0/v-deo.html
2: See Understanding the Final Shape and the Witness ua-cam.com/video/Ioq9cPaaUeM/v-deo.html
as someone willingly doing teaching runs every evening for SE on LFG for the last few weeks, I get the part about verity being frustrating, and in the same way it also pushes me to get better at dealing with others and at Destiny. you nailed a lot of my own points honestly
I'm super down to run it with anyone seeing this of any level of either skill or familiarity :)
Id love to learn this raid if you ever have the time! my ign is Demon_Fatalis#9618
I've never got to run it due to player cout/willingness and not enough people online in my clan. UnderarmMunkei#3736 is my bungie tag.
@@denny8422 I would love to get my clear in finally. I'm trying to get the title too😅😭
@@denny8422 honestly I'd love to give it a shot one day. Never got a chance as my friends attempted day 1 but I didn't have any time to try it with them, and this was before the mass exodus of players over the past few months. I want to try get back into the game especially so that I can get the season pass done, and yeah I really do want to try Verity too!
@@denny8422 what's ur bunge
I think the reason why house salvation was cut was because at the end they all just became scorn. They never believed in the final shape, only revenge, and the only purpose the witness for them was to be scorn and nothing more
I also seem to remember the witness seeming to be much harsher to races that received gifts from the traveler so not solely accounting for house salvation failing while under the witnesses banner it makes sense that it would turn the into near mindless zombie puppets
@ I also think it’s the reason that a fallen or the Herald of finality is the witness trying to mock us because humanity has been fighting them for generations and they’ve also been blessed by the travelers light before us
We learn from operation seraph shield that the witness begun resurrecting salvation eliksni as scorn to punish Eramis for her previous failures.
I love that this raid demands perfect execution because the Witness itself is about perfection. & As someone who completed the Seal with similar struggles u mentioned, I believe u can do it! Only thing I haven't done is a Flawless yet, hoping I can get around to it one day
@@BrazarB I've done flawless probably the most stressful flawless I've ever done but I believe in you and you'll get it eventually
Too bad Bungo can’t make a raid with any competence anymore. Still can’t even do a proper D1 like hard mode.
When i run this raid i make it a rule for myself to run with 3 friends as it basically ensures at least half the team knows mechanics so we can carry/teach players with less knowledgeable and it helps so much with verity
@@Jaffamuncher21 yep. Always go in with some pardners
Great video essay. I loved playing SE with my clan for weeks, doing the challenges on master and learning the encounters with one another. I only needed three triumphs for iconoclasm since I missed a few sessions. And none of them played after act 3 of echoes, and like you say it’s uncomfortable playing with random people since there are so many strategies. I wish I could hop back in because it’s a great raid.
Your raid reviews have been incredible! Thank you for the amazing work!
regarding timing, i would much much much prefer a "late" review that is well thought out over a "timely" one. that being said, all of your videos have consistently been incredibly well polished and thoughtfully measured :] i'd watch anything you upload
I’d agree as well. Plus there was so much SE content when the raid came out. It’s nice to see this video now that I myself have had more time to solidify my thoughts and emotions towards this raid
Only did one run of Salvation’s Edge but still loved the vibes and loot. I think there’s some fat that needs trimmed (3rd encounter feels like a lot of unnecessary padding) but it’s just awesome
4th feels that way because it was made during the delay but it's still top 5 encounters imo. I honestly feel like encounter 3 feels like unessecery padding as it's just a larger scaled 1st encounter
@ whoops, I meant the third one- verity is great despite the difficulties with newer/teaching teams. Third is just a slooooog
Hi, there's actually 9 tracks that play throughout this raid. "Dissenter" plays when you arrive at Verity. ☺️
Ah thank you! Didn’t realize that. They really did a great job with the music. :)
Just like Vow, Salvation’s Edge makes sure that every player is involved in each encounter which makes it all the more rewarding to complete. This was by far my favorite raid seal to chase as each new run always made me understand and appreciate the raid as a whole. Raids like RoN never sat right with me as there aren’t enough jobs for everyone to have which makes your first completion feel bitter sweet if your team just stuck you on ad clear. A good raid should make every member of the fireteam feel needed
Interestingly, every raid encounter in other raids are also timed, but SE just makes it very clear exactly how much time you have.
I remember watching the live streams of worlds first and watching everyone get stuck on the shape/statue phase. Even when the first team was ahead of everyone. It took around 6 hrs for everyone to catch up. Watching that phase made me realize I’ll never be able to get the raid done
I'm missing only 3 things for Iconoclast, and I've been struggling to get a full fireteam the past 6 months
- Full Solar
- Full Arc
- Verity complication
I always vote to run SE in our clan runs but my raid report for it is a disaster - it is still by far my favourite raid.
That enemy stuck in the floor at 9:43 was funny lol
I would love to help with salvations edge runs, the raid is so fun when helping others imo
4:11 There were originally 4 encounters with the verity encounter only being added after the final shape got delayed.
So, funnily enough, this was the first Day1 raid I actively passed on the idea of doing, with an entire teams worth of guardians joining me on the sentiment.
This was after doing and clearing every one since Deep Stone.
Originally, I was up for the idea, even considering the idea of taking Annual Leave (Time Off) in order to 'prepare' for doing it.
Then the timing shifted such that instead of the usual cadence (Week 1 Release week, Week 2 Friday Contest Raid Weekend), it shifted to having the Raid drop the same week the expansion released, and I decided that, *even within time off* I didn't want the focus to be Wholly on Destiny just for a good performance in the Day1 raid, meaning there were essentially 2 1/2 days of grind available to complete the campaign and gear up and grab some additional, new, tools.
Consequently, decided that I didn't fancy the 'additional work' to go in for contest mode, and a few others within my original team, and the clan that have done previous Day1's, all, seperately, decided to sit it out.
And boy, did that transpire to be a good decision.
I've gotten older, already being an Adult since Destiny originally started, and valued my time a fair bit more.
The team that did have a go, that I have also played quite consistently with previously, cleared 1st, 2nd and 3rd and got stuck at 4th Verity.
Not a bad performance.
But it reinforces that I was glad I decided to just skip the 'spoilers' and decide on a blind run of the normal difficulty raid after that weekend.
Which *still* caused us to get stuck at Verity before deciding we didn't want to be there all night, let's go and just look this bit up.
But this is the thing with this raid.
Even on normal mode, it demands a fair amount of 'perfection' to have any sufficient progress.
That sounds fine in principle, until you remember two critical pieces of information:
1. These are players of varying skill levels, that you might not have interacted with before.
2. Some of these players actually *WORK* for a living, meaning for all of those players that are 'fresh', you have to contend with me having just done 8 to 12 hours, and wanting to 'get something done'
Number 2 isn't a 'dig' at anyone that isn't employed, as much as it may sound that it is, nor is it a dig to say a student that finds themselves with quite a bit of time.
But in making a quite expansive raid (this is a good thing), in addition to making it a very 'near perfect execution' heavy raid (this is a bad thing the longer it goes on), the combination makes it incredibly tiresome - and unapproachable in a 'casual' 'raid night' environment.
It's as if every encounter was in some part Exhibition from Vow of the Disciple, or Vault from Last Wish.
Individually, the encounter(s) are a fairly good puzzle, involving clear communication, good timing and an understanding of the puzzle at large (albeit Vault was brute-forced on Day1).
But between the tight timer for Encounter 1 (generally helpful if you know where the plates are going to spawn and what it's signifies is, the Overload).
Some of the ad annoyances in Encounter 2 (Yay, Duskfields & Burning, my favourite combo - unless you're Prism Titan and you just slide melee annihilate everything on spawn)
Encounter 3 is fairly 'free' but can occasionally trip people up if they accidentally shoot the wrong pillar.
Encounter 4 is a clusterfuck at the absolute best of times, even with experienced teams, especially if you haven't 'practiced' in a while, or are tired, or have someone die and suddenly have to 'shift mindset' and go from 'making lock' to 'making key' and trying not fuck that up despite the fact you may have been handling fundamentally different shapes not 2 seconds before - all whilst making sure you aren't smashed by Ogres/Knights.
And then it culminates in The Final boss, which isn't particularly awful, it's quite grandiose, but by this point in the raid your thinking power is probably going to be taking a hit (especially if, as I mentioned before, you're trying to do this 'after work/school' where you're already partially drained).
Now, it doesn't bother Players like me, because I already went and acquired the Raid patterns, and most of my group had the patterns and the exotic drop.
I'm still missing the exotic, and despite owning every Exotic Weapon and Catalyst up to this point (Excluding Salvations Edge), I don't see the point in going to get it, just to make my Swarmer Warlock 1% better.
But for other players wanting to experience it... yeah it's 'a bit more involved' than most of the other raids.
Now that's fine for a 'send off', and a bit of an 'homage' for the super hardcore playerbase.
It was a hard raid, and a hard day1, with the lowest clear numbers ever(?).
But it's also the least played raid, by miles.
You can't help but think, in a situation where only a fraction of the playerbase raids at all, that this may ultimately have been a step too far.
I'm glad the Destiny Content Creators got a great deal of content out of it.
And I'm glad those that enjoyed the challenge, whether they completed it or not, felt successful.
But it isn't a 'consumable raid'.
If I have had a long day at work; I'm not playing this raid - I don't want to have to put conscious thought into my every move AND have limited ways of salvaging my, or others fuck ups.
I can play literally any other raid after a long day at work, except this one.
I'm not into something to be jerked around with tight executions and limited opportunities to correct mistakes, that are also reliant on 5 other people doing the same thing.
If you don't have many other priorities, and/or can set aside the time, fair enough.
But there is absolutely a reason this is the least played raid, and it isn't the fact the player numbers have plummeted off a cliff, this was a problem well before the decline.
I'm outright just never going to do the raid, I think. Watching it, it looks brilliant and as you said the lore is perfect, but I can't say it looks very fun on the gameplay sense. Besides that, exactly as you said, people want the comfortable teams for a raid like this. Kind of means the bunch who don't have a group who already play struggle to get into groups for this raid, which I honestly understand this time around.
I would love to run it, but every team that “teaches” me ends up kicking me or not making it passed the first encounter. I gave up on doing new raids since everyone I run into is super toxic or they can’t work together
There is something to be said for a hard raid being a great one. Yes, the storytelling through difficulty along with the actually really well done encounters is an amazing first time experience... but that's just is - its the first time experience. The only encounter I actually look forward to on repeat runs is ironically enough the Witness itself, and its actually rather simple why; despite having not as challenging mechanics, not everyone needs to do them, its surprisingly teachable with a few runs, and the fight itself is engaging enough to make those mechanics challenging enough to do given its on top of fighting for your life. You likely won't immediately 1 phase, its rewarding AND challenging enough, and the fight itself is just epic alongside having very significant story significance.
Everything else is too challenging or complex for an LFG group (which a lot of us engage with) to do. The 1st and 3rd encounters are ok for reasons stated in the video, but the 2nd and 4th encounters have serious problems that make the very difficult if you don't play them with a regular, solid team (which not all of us have the luxury of doing, which is part of why we turn to LFG). The 2nd encounter has a problem where if someone slips up somewhere, you will likely fail due to lack of time remaining (either in the phase you're in or the next due to not having enough time). 4th encounter... well, that one was explained. I also enjoy 4th encounter, but I cannot for the life of me learn how to dissect, nor do I have people willing to run a few times to teach me, which very few people seem to be willing to do for a variety of reasons. I can usually tell how the rest of the raid will go based solely off of how fast we clear the 1st encounter, because if the team has proper chemistry, gear, and competency, they will overcome the rest of the encounters (maybe barring 4th). If any one of those are missing among even just 1 person, then I just don't want to bother.
Salvation's Edge's difficulty is ultimately a double-edged sword. When you want the challenge, and you have 5 other people who are also willing and capable of taking it on, then its a blast! When you don't, you better have a lot of time and patience for BS.
I attempted DSC, Vow, and Root day one but I haven't touched Salvation's Edge at all yet. I regret not trying day 1 too but life was just way too busy. I also havent spoken to my raid team in such a long time. I do want to get this raid done at some point, as well as the latest dungeon. but life is so damn busy. I miss playing destiny but there is nothing remotely exciting to do that is solo and I can only play solo things because i dont have time to do the raids or dungeons anymore.
The one raid I'll never run. 😢
SE has been a weird balance for me, where I'm not comfortable going with Randoms, but I still need to go for the exotic (and maybe complete some challenges.
I'm not quite ready to jump back in, but at some point I'll open my hel to anyone who still needs their runs (and maybe I can sherpa once I finish learning the Dissection part of Verity, as that's the only part of the raid I still don't know how to do yet).
I love Salvations Edge because the only way to beat it is to truly embody the Traveler's ideal - it demands that you work together as a team, communicating, respecting, trusting, cooperating. Anything less, and you will lose every time against the Witness and its Final Shape.
After many thinking of how the witness has been defeated, I can’t help but remember the time he litterally make finger moves to one shot 3 guardians in their ship, but in the raid he just makes lasers like Rhulk ?
If the witness was lore accurate to its power in the raid, we wouldn’t stand a chance, the moment we would have been in front of him he would have straight up knifed us and the ghost.
The only way I can really make it work is that the Witness is too focused on enacting the final shape and isn’t paying much attention to us. Think like you are working on a car and a fly keeps buzzing around, you swat at it but you are focused on fixing the car. Even though you could get the fly, that would ruin your focus on the car.
yeah but that wouldn't have been interesting, personally, I justify it as us getting prismatic somehow made us immune to the Witness' flick, or that the Witness has tried, but the Traveler just pulls us back together.
I feel like it was degined to be the Hardest D2 raid day one but bc of that you have the most limiting raid bc any firetream is gonna require KWTD and multpile clears becuse of the insane learning curve .
I'll render another comment to synthesize its problems:
Encounter 1 Points of failure -
Wipe Mechanic = Timer Expiry
Failure to find the activate plates fast enough. (You lose time).
Mistiming the plate step; spawns a Miniboss level Ad that must be nuked before plate mechanic can be re-performed. (You lose time).
An awkward Ad spawn of Strand Psions (or Stasis Psions) can either yank you away from the Plate at a critical moment, or prevent you from having enough mobility to stand. See above.
You accidentally collect more than 3 resonance energy (This is just an additional point of failure).
You die to the ads; if you lose 2 people such that you no longer have res tokens and/or not enough tokens to revive them, the encounter is almost impossible to do on time.
Compare this to 'other' Encounter 1 Points of Failure -
I'm going to gloss over the 'dying to ads' as this is present in all raids, so for contrast, Encounter 1 of SE, has 4 individual points of failure, not related to dying to ads too many times (which is every raid)
DSC; you shoot the wrong fuse / shoot the fuse before it's called out
DSC; you have the fireteam die to incorrect plate shooting in basement.
VoW; you take too long to clear all 3 rooms and the sand fills the totem.
VoW; you fail to clear the adherents and they fill the totem with sand.
VoW; you have somewhere called out the wrong symbols and/or get the combinations wrong too many times.
KF; you fail to have someone standing on the annihilator totem frequently enough to prevent the wipe.
KF; you hold the buff too long and it expires.
Crota; you hold the buff too long and it expires.
Crota; you die to environmental hazards (Pits, Enemies, Pendulums, Exploding Lanterns)
Crota; Time runs out.
VoG; I actually can't remember the first encounter very well all of a sudden, but it can't have more than 2 points of failure; letting the wyverns sacrifice themselves.
VoG; whatever the 2nd point of failure is
LW; failure to push Kalli to damage phase.
LW; failure to have the fireteam enter the doors more than once.
Garden; time runs out
Garden; failure to keep the nodes chain activated consistently.
RoN; time runs out (You don't kill the Psions & Tormentors fast enough)
Every other raid has between 1 and 3 points of failure for that same equivalent encounter.
However, in almost every instance I mentioned, there is ample opportunity to 'correct' at least one of the potential problems.
DSC; verify the person scanning is identifying the plates correctly; verify the person operating is identifying the plates correctly. [Alternatively, swap some roles]
VoW; basically same principle as DSC, check they know their symbols, if in doubt have the fireteam converge on the 'correct' totem and have the more confident players shoot them.
KF; the buff respawns on death, and can be grabbed from the starting location, you can also eager edge skate to deal with activations, with modern healing tending to offset damage in the room.
Crota; you only really need 3 or 4 people juggling the buff if it really comes to it, you can also do things like skate to deposit spots if the team just needs a slower 'escort' to 'reset'.
VoG; I'd be surprised if this went wrong, but most sacrifice locations can be seen by at least one other location and can fire on the target.
LW; you can coordinate doors a bit better and ensure understanding of the plates.
Garden; same sort of premise for the above timer related encounters
RoN; with 5 ad clear it really shouldn't be an issue to 'nuke' tormentors.
How do you salvage the first encounter of Salvations Edge?
You maybe check people understand where the plates are going to be based on conditions.
But beyond this, it literally comes down to personal performance as it involves:
Not Dying
Not getting frozen/yanked by suspend
Not picking up too many resonance
Not failing to close on time
Not being too slow on killing ads
Not being too slow on killing tormentors.
This is literally the case for every single Encounter of Salvations Edge.
Compared to other Raids, where you can have 'hero moments' (especially as a Sherpa), where you're capable of preventing the wipe from going off.
In Salvations Edge, unlike almost any other raid, if something goes 'badly wrong', you can't really salvage it.
If a dissector dies in the room in Verity, you suddenly have to shift mentality from outside to inside; AND, you don't necessarily know immediately how much work has been done, and need time to assess where you're at, further losing time. It's technically possible to dissect in such an instance, but it's just easier to get it right first time.
If you think about Salvations Edge compared to any other raid, the amount of insurmountable points of failure, even in normal mode SE, are excessively high compared to ANY OTHER RAID.
There is absolutely a reason why SE is the least played raid by miles.
It is a fun pinnacle raid.
But it is not a fun raid to repeatedly replay.
"Zenith is the best boss fight with riven the only contender." Am I the only one who thinks this is a hot take?, aksis phase 2, especially on 390 and with the challenge, is my absolute favorite, and I never see people mention it
It’s simple really. The harder you make something the less people are gonna run it. Difficultly comes at the cost of replay-ability.
God… I’ve never beat it, and it’s eating at me… I’ve beat all other raids, yet I can’t bring myself to even attempt this one. Sigh… This might prove quite “fatal,” to my opinion of myself…
Salvation's Edge is a raid I sort of hate. Having to LFG it ruined any chance at it being fun for me. I like the first three encounters, but the last two just really don't do it for me.
I think needing perfection just doesn't work if you're not with people you know and like. Because the inevitability is that there's someone in your group who is That Guy and now Verity will take 6 hours and there's nothing you can do about it. The only clear I have of it came down to luck on a run where the game never gave That Guy an inside room or made them the last person alive in the big ghost movey phase.
Witness is a cool enough fight, but I feel like there's nothing for most players to be doing outside of the DPS phase. It's the same problem with a lot of encounters, where you get people doing the fun little puzzle, and then a couple who have to sit and twiddle their thumbs until boss says it's shooty time.
I haven't kept up with the sandbox that much since I did my one clear on like week 2 or 3, but it was extremely unfun to just be told that I have nothing I can do ability wise as a titan to damage the boss, since it sits outside on a death box and years of design has cemented the class as punch man who punch good. Combined with the insane state Nighthawk Still Hunt was in at the time, and it seemed like my choice was to either not contribute to the team, or just never play one of the three classes in the game.
Overall, I love the story and aesthetic and everything else about the raid, I just feel like the latter half gets way too into being long and difficult when done blind, sacrificing the fun of playing it after that in the process. Sorry if this comes across a little too negative or heated, I just haven't really spoken about my thoughts on the raid before.
Yeah, it’s overrated and content creators like this are blinded by their Day 1’s and this being the end and all. Titan is useless for most of it, means it’s objectively not even close to the best. And don’t get me started on the gear…
@@bannedmann4469 I feel like that's not really fair to assume. I think the first half of the raid is pretty good, the cool confusing Escher room of the first encounter, the sword DPS boss (at least it was last time I checked) and the third encounter are all awesome and I'd like to play them again.
People can like things that you or I don't, doesn't seem particularly productive to call them blind for it.
I hate this raid because I won’t go get a boss cp for my “clear” I want the full package and NOBODY is willing to teach the 4th encounter. SE has to be the worst raid Bungie has ever made because EVERY SINGLE OTHER RAID players are willing to teach and won’t quit on you halfway through before even ATTEMPTING the 4th encounter. I hate this raid because it has some of the best legendary loot in the game and no one cares enough to teach it. I wonder why destiny as a franchise is dying.
So this is why i wasnt allowed to join lmao
I've raided for four years now, and I've gotta say; this raid is one I have never completed. The armor and weapon designs don't really click, but the memento looks fire. The exotic is interesting, but the overall experience frustrates me. The mechanics seem doable, but the Dread enemies just piss me off. Ultimately, I've never made it past the second encounter, and I don't know if I'd even want to pick the game back up again, much less do the raid if I did.
Really like this raid, really dislike the general community attitude
long parkour sucks and drain fun of every activity
TL;DR Hard to teach, hard for scrubs to do. Lame reskin gear. Probably still glitchy.