Thank you for this video! Your process for building kicks is more straightforward than others I've seen, which is something I had been looking for. I'm happy your channel is focused on hard techno production. Hope your channel keeps growing.
You aren't improving the phase relationships between the layers by removing the low frequencies of one of them. i don't know how many times i have seen this myth, but it's still not correct. you are reducing the correlation between the two sounds so they no longer have any phase relationship. that is not phase alignment. also, with filters the phase shift is nonlinear. it is only the low end that has shifted in position. the rest of the frequencies are probably less affected. flipping the polarity of the whole sound just reduces the correlation further at those frequencies in other sounds that interact within the same pocket of time as it(more on this in a bit). would be better idea if you actually intend to improve the phase relationships by using a nonlinear phase adjustor like a 1st or 2nd order allpass filter Ultimately though, the whole phase chasing thing is redundant. if you improve the correlation between the kick and bass, then everything else is still lacking correlation with those elements. you cannot have anything approaching perfect correlation with complex sounds. it does not exist. better solution is to just increase the separation via amplitude, and then using things like saturation and light compression to make all those elements work together. the phase thing is a goose chase that very few people who speak on it seem to understand in any coherent manner other than that reductionist sinewave example
Very good understanding of the subject. I'm sorry for poor choice of words in the video - this could be explained a bit more precisely. Though I'd still lean towards saying that if the current correlation between the two sounds is so bad that some of the frequencies cancel out (let's take the low frequencies), removing the low-end from either of sounds could be taken as improving that phase correlation (since the frequencies don't cancel out anymore). Well, one could say that makes sense, someone else could call that "mental gymnastics". It's true the phase shift is non-linear - this is something I show in my other video about OTT compression that I refer to at some point of this tutorial. It's difficult to say whether flipping the phase reduces the correlation or not - it depends on both sounds being used when layering. Also, it's up to one's preferences to say whether flipping the phase of either of the sample changes the correlation in a way the resulting sound is better or not. Using an all-pass filter is an interesting take I've never seen in use yet, though it's still not a perfect solution. We can take for granted that whenever we take 2 kick drum samples, they are going to have a different pitch envelope. Each kick sound can "start" from a different pitch and they can end up with the low-end occupying a bit different frequency range after a different period of time. At some point during playback, the correlation must change for the better or worse. If we used an all-pass filter, at one point the correlation would be ok, but after let's say 50 miliseconds, the correlation would be off again. It's true that the correlation between the kick or bass and other instruments is also something that exists (even though we only talk about that in the context of kick and bass sounds), but the thing is that even if that "correlation" would be wrong in the mid or high frequencies (think of a reese bass sound + a snare drum/hi-hat on top of it), its effects won't be as harmful as a bad correlation between the kick and bass (which ends up with for example a lacking low-end across the whole track). Sidechain compression and gluing things with compression/saturation is of course one of greater ways to mix, but how is one supposed to use that when layering kick drums for a better transient?
@@MarcinRajski- 1. naa, it's really not. if you are removing frequencies from one and layering with another, you are reducing the interference (that's arguable as well)by reducing the phase correlation between the two. for 2 signals to correlate they need to share similar frequencies to begin with for them to correlate in phase at those frequencies. 2.first video of yours I've seen in my feed, so wasn't aware of that. 3.well, that was kind of the point of my closing statement. there is no perfect solution and it really doesn't matter as much as people claim. phase is only the derivative of pitch. they do not follow each other linearly, so your pitch envelope analogy doesn't make as much sense as you think it makes. i can design two kicks with the same pitch envelope trajectory to their fundamental and have them have completely different phase relationships either fixed or overtime if you use an FM/PM synth or do micro-adjustments of the cycles with the pitch envelope or edits in post. they might sound the same in isolation depending on your monitoring setup, but they would correlate differently with everything else in the mix that they interact in time and in unison with. I am also not sure what you mean with your argument against allpass filters. that's exactly what is going to happen if you simply flip the polarity and use minimum phase filters, especially as steep as you are recommending here(with 4 pole and above you are decorrelating the frequencies a considerable amount to the point the correlation between the two amounts to a comb filtered response at the stopband and some ways into the passband. it's the complete antonym of correlated or "in phase). you aren't getting a better correlation by splitting the sound with minimum phase filters and polarity flipping. at least with allpass filters the frequencies will actually be in correlation though if you set them up properly albeit at the expense of group delay. your solution always results in less correlation between the two sounds at those frequencies. if one of the sounds only contains the transient, then what exactly is it correlating with in the other layer? absolutely nothing. therefore if you wish to go down this rabbit hole, its correlation with other elements that coincide with it are more important than the kick thud/doof/ tail itself or bass sound(i am not arguing for this). this is not a bad thing is what i am trying to put across though, but it's also not accurate to call it "more in phase"or whatever you wish to call it. 4. who's "we"? you mean other UA-camrs? I already alluded as to the reason why that is and it's largely because they do not know what they are talking about. I can assure you especially in Techno nobody is really focussing on this stuff. most of the marriage of sounds comes from dynamics processing and distortion/saturation treatments. i've did a few final stem and multitrack mixdowns for well known Techno labels in the past and absolutely none of them did anything that i would consider phase aware. very bread and butter mixing The problem with your understanding of phase is that because phase is nonlinear in complex sounds, any kind of minimum phase filter you add adds more and more local delay at those frequencies. the steeper the filters you use, the more delayed those frequencies become decreasing their correlation with the sounds that play in unison or within the same pocket of time. because the delay is local, you cannot simply just shift it back with a sample delay or whatever, therefore trying to correct phase this way is a destructive process that actually accomplishes the complete opposite of what you set out to do. listen, if people truly gave one about phase, and could actually hear its detriments, then linear phase and FIR filters would be far more common in peoples repertoire when they are producing. but alas, they are not. the only way you can improve the phase relationship between two sounds is to improve their radius. you cannot do it by introducing yet more group delay outside of an allpass filter/ minimum phase phase rotator (1st to 2nd order allpass essentially with pos/neg phase) which lets you set a phase rotation amount independent of the phase shift introduced by the filter you introduced, but at the expense of yet more group delay. unless you want to deconstruct a sound into its individual partials and rotate them individually, there is no way to truly put something "in phase" especially in a complex arrangement, so its better to focus on reducing interference and increasing correlation other ways e.g stereo, aggressive compression to force two sounds to share one envelope (the most common one i know of by Techno producers)parallel saturation to marry their crest factors, reverb, but mostly importantly, being more mindful of the pitches you use when shaping the entire track is another as well, and no. i do not mean have the kick and bass/sub share the same fundamental frequency(this is one example of where absolute correlation would screw you). that sounds horrid on big systems.
Hej. Coś tu mordko jest nie tak. Ten bass ma dziwny click i ogolnie nie brzmi dobrze. Kick jest ok ale myslę że mógłby być mocniejszy :( sledzę twoje filmy i w duzej wiekszosci robisz super tutki :) żeby nie było :) pozdrawiam
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Thank you for this video! Your process for building kicks is more straightforward than others I've seen, which is something I had been looking for. I'm happy your channel is focused on hard techno production. Hope your channel keeps growing.
Thank you! It will =)
Can you do this for fl studio pleasw
Is there a link to the Vengeance Sample Pack you were reffering to? i wasnt able to find this specific one. Thx
An official or unofficial one? You can likely find such stuff on reddit where people upload stuff via google drive
@@MarcinRajski- I´d prefer to have an official download. Especially as creatives ourselfs I think thats the respectful way to go.
@@extunc6066 Ok, so here's an official website then: www.vengeance-sound.com/samples.php :)
@@MarcinRajski- Thank you! nice videos btw, subsciprion is on
🔥🔥🔥
You aren't improving the phase relationships between the layers by removing the low frequencies of one of them. i don't know how many times i have seen this myth, but it's still not correct. you are reducing the correlation between the two sounds so they no longer have any phase relationship. that is not phase alignment. also, with filters the phase shift is nonlinear. it is only the low end that has shifted in position. the rest of the frequencies are probably less affected. flipping the polarity of the whole sound just reduces the correlation further at those frequencies in other sounds that interact within the same pocket of time as it(more on this in a bit). would be better idea if you actually intend to improve the phase relationships by using a nonlinear phase adjustor like a 1st or 2nd order allpass filter
Ultimately though, the whole phase chasing thing is redundant. if you improve the correlation between the kick and bass, then everything else is still lacking correlation with those elements. you cannot have anything approaching perfect correlation with complex sounds. it does not exist. better solution is to just increase the separation via amplitude, and then using things like saturation and light compression to make all those elements work together. the phase thing is a goose chase that very few people who speak on it seem to understand in any coherent manner other than that reductionist sinewave example
Very good understanding of the subject. I'm sorry for poor choice of words in the video - this could be explained a bit more precisely. Though I'd still lean towards saying that if the current correlation between the two sounds is so bad that some of the frequencies cancel out (let's take the low frequencies), removing the low-end from either of sounds could be taken as improving that phase correlation (since the frequencies don't cancel out anymore). Well, one could say that makes sense, someone else could call that "mental gymnastics".
It's true the phase shift is non-linear - this is something I show in my other video about OTT compression that I refer to at some point of this tutorial.
It's difficult to say whether flipping the phase reduces the correlation or not - it depends on both sounds being used when layering. Also, it's up to one's preferences to say whether flipping the phase of either of the sample changes the correlation in a way the resulting sound is better or not.
Using an all-pass filter is an interesting take I've never seen in use yet, though it's still not a perfect solution. We can take for granted that whenever we take 2 kick drum samples, they are going to have a different pitch envelope. Each kick sound can "start" from a different pitch and they can end up with the low-end occupying a bit different frequency range after a different period of time. At some point during playback, the correlation must change for the better or worse. If we used an all-pass filter, at one point the correlation would be ok, but after let's say 50 miliseconds, the correlation would be off again.
It's true that the correlation between the kick or bass and other instruments is also something that exists (even though we only talk about that in the context of kick and bass sounds), but the thing is that even if that "correlation" would be wrong in the mid or high frequencies (think of a reese bass sound + a snare drum/hi-hat on top of it), its effects won't be as harmful as a bad correlation between the kick and bass (which ends up with for example a lacking low-end across the whole track). Sidechain compression and gluing things with compression/saturation is of course one of greater ways to mix, but how is one supposed to use that when layering kick drums for a better transient?
@@MarcinRajski-
1. naa, it's really not. if you are removing frequencies from one and layering with another, you are reducing the interference (that's arguable as well)by reducing the phase correlation between the two. for 2 signals to correlate they need to share similar frequencies to begin with for them to correlate in phase at those frequencies.
2.first video of yours I've seen in my feed, so wasn't aware of that.
3.well, that was kind of the point of my closing statement. there is no perfect solution and it really doesn't matter as much as people claim. phase is only the derivative of pitch. they do not follow each other linearly, so your pitch envelope analogy doesn't make as much sense as you think it makes. i can design two kicks with the same pitch envelope trajectory to their fundamental and have them have completely different phase relationships either fixed or overtime if you use an FM/PM synth or do micro-adjustments of the cycles with the pitch envelope or edits in post. they might sound the same in isolation depending on your monitoring setup, but they would correlate differently with everything else in the mix that they interact in time and in unison with.
I am also not sure what you mean with your argument against allpass filters. that's exactly what is going to happen if you simply flip the polarity and use minimum phase filters, especially as steep as you are recommending here(with 4 pole and above you are decorrelating the frequencies a considerable amount to the point the correlation between the two amounts to a comb filtered response at the stopband and some ways into the passband. it's the complete antonym of correlated or "in phase). you aren't getting a better correlation by splitting the sound with minimum phase filters and polarity flipping. at least with allpass filters the frequencies will actually be in correlation though if you set them up properly albeit at the expense of group delay. your solution always results in less correlation between the two sounds at those frequencies. if one of the sounds only contains the transient, then what exactly is it correlating with in the other layer? absolutely nothing. therefore if you wish to go down this rabbit hole, its correlation with other elements that coincide with it are more important than the kick thud/doof/ tail itself or bass sound(i am not arguing for this). this is not a bad thing is what i am trying to put across though, but it's also not accurate to call it "more in phase"or whatever you wish to call it.
4. who's "we"? you mean other UA-camrs? I already alluded as to the reason why that is and it's largely because they do not know what they are talking about. I can assure you especially in Techno nobody is really focussing on this stuff. most of the marriage of sounds comes from dynamics processing and distortion/saturation treatments. i've did a few final stem and multitrack mixdowns for well known Techno labels in the past and absolutely none of them did anything that i would consider phase aware. very bread and butter mixing
The problem with your understanding of phase is that because phase is nonlinear in complex sounds, any kind of minimum phase filter you add adds more and more local delay at those frequencies. the steeper the filters you use, the more delayed those frequencies become decreasing their correlation with the sounds that play in unison or within the same pocket of time. because the delay is local, you cannot simply just shift it back with a sample delay or whatever, therefore trying to correct phase this way is a destructive process that actually accomplishes the complete opposite of what you set out to do.
listen, if people truly gave one about phase, and could actually hear its detriments, then linear phase and FIR filters would be far more common in peoples repertoire when they are producing. but alas, they are not. the only way you can improve the phase relationship between two sounds is to improve their radius. you cannot do it by introducing yet more group delay outside of an allpass filter/ minimum phase phase rotator (1st to 2nd order allpass essentially with pos/neg phase) which lets you set a phase rotation amount independent of the phase shift introduced by the filter you introduced, but at the expense of yet more group delay.
unless you want to deconstruct a sound into its individual partials and rotate them individually, there is no way to truly put something "in phase" especially in a complex arrangement, so its better to focus on reducing interference and increasing correlation other ways e.g stereo, aggressive compression to force two sounds to share one envelope (the most common one i know of by Techno producers)parallel saturation to marry their crest factors, reverb, but mostly importantly, being more mindful of the pitches you use when shaping the entire track is another as well, and no. i do not mean have the kick and bass/sub share the same fundamental frequency(this is one example of where absolute correlation would screw you). that sounds horrid on big systems.
Hej. Coś tu mordko jest nie tak. Ten bass ma dziwny click i ogolnie nie brzmi dobrze. Kick jest ok ale myslę że mógłby być mocniejszy :( sledzę twoje filmy i w duzej wiekszosci robisz super tutki :) żeby nie było :) pozdrawiam