People usually emphasize the removal of excess water in the soil because of the use of the word "drainage" but really what should be emphasized is that one is seeking to increase the amount of air in the soil to maximise root respiration like you do tuning a carburetor. Roots stop growing when the amount of air in the soil is too low above the water table. There is a lot of misunderstanding about subsurface drainage, how roots work and soil water.
Thank you for the question; we appreciate it! The response to your question was broadcasted live over the Ag PhD Radio Show, which airs at 2pm Central on Sirius XM Channel 147. The response can be listened to at this link: soundcloud.com/agphd/01-12-17-improving-seed#t=56:45
I'll agree that it's good for reducing sediment loads in waterways, but tiling significantly increases nutrient loading. I'm currently working on a graduate school assignment on the topic now. The Raccoon River is the example I'm working from. There is overwhelming data coming from that watershed that links the culprit of N loading to the river from farmground. I find the "it's good for the environment" angle they push here to be extremely narrow. 1+1=2 guys, great job, except the question actually involved advanced calculus.
Shae - thanks for the comments. Brian and Darren addressed them on Ag PhD Radio today. Listen to their response here soundcloud.com/agphd/03-21-18-calcium#t=52:28
1. nitrate runoff will occur on the surface level with or without tiles and it will still eventually seep into ground water. 2. tiles allow for nitrogen rich water to be directed into bio reactors, perennial plant buffers and even special water basins for water recycling.
Is there a chance the drain tile could get caught on a plow and damaged? Do you leave markers, or map the location? Does the Farmer rely on his memory to remember where the drain tile is? I wouldn't want to see the drain tile ripped out during next years plowing.
There are reasons why one should call a licensed plumber instead of trying to figure out what is wrong with a kitchen sink drain. The same goes for do-it-your-self tile drainage. Tiiling is expensive and a small error in the installation can negate much of the system. It is very important to have equipment that controls the grade of the pipe being installed. I know a case in which an agricultural producer with no familiarity with subsurface drainage had a person install pipe with a D8 caterpillar tractor and the pipe went off grade near the outlet due to a sharp j turn in the line. Pipes tend to rise going around a curve if not properly controlled and if a laser plane is used, a turn can result in a loss of grade as well. The tile system did not work and the agricultural producer did not know why and concluded that tile doesn't work. A person with subsurface drainage experience as an agricultural producer in another area where it was common, looked into the matter on hearing about it and did some digging along the line. The line was working perfectly up to where the pipe went off grade. When installing pipe with a drainage plow there are also things like buried rocks that can put the tile off grade (too high or too low) and even with special linkages and attitude control of the toe and heel of the shoe, the affected section of pipe near the rock needs to be inspected and corrected if necessary to make sure it is on grade.
Hi! Thanks for your question! Brian and Darren addressed it on Ag PhD Radio today. You can listen to their response here soundcloud.com/agphd/04-25-17-sudden-death-syndrome-in-soybeans#t=57:41.
Hi, Dave! Brian and Darren addressed your comment on Ag PhD Radio today. You can listen to their response here soundcloud.com/agphd/03-26-18-irrigation-planning-and-strategies#t=36:09.
Marius, For a start the pipe being used in this demonstration is a perforated corrugated plastic pipe and should not be referred to as a "tile", which is a completely different system. There is generally no common distance between rows of pipes, as each row of pipe will be constructed to suit the contours of the ground and for maximum efficiency. Where there is a drainage problem over a larger area it is generally not recommended to lay rows of piping more than 30 meters apart but no two fields will be the same.
Agricultural lands tiling may and may not be environmental friendly, it depends on how it is practiced and what are other practices such as fertilization on the lands. Just for example, Algal bloom in the Lake Erie has been linked to tiling mainly. Research are ongoing to determine the role of residential lawn fertilization on algal bloom. Please check your facts well before advertising.
Boys, you all have some interesting misinformed watchers!!! Also, in some areas, you have to go through a bunch of government BS before you can tile....
At the very least, do your damndest to make sure you are using best construction practices. Even trained and licensed contractors can get into bad habits. ALWAYS install the system from the outlet upwards and construct laterals from the main upwards and never in the reverse direction. Also, there is a best method for cutting and making connections of a lateral to a main. Don't use quick methods such as slitting the back of a tee and placing it over a hole in the main. Possibly get together with a university ag extension person and create a learning group like a barn building bee to get some local experience in the field. There are graded licensing and instruction systems that could be used. An interested person could get some experience in the summer or fall.
I have been in drainage/tile research for nearly 3 years now. First of all this video was published in 2009. Over the last 10 years, drainage research and designs have improved. I need to correct something said in the video first. Tile drainage water is clean because there is no sediment, but its not drinking water quality. The drinking water standard is 10 mg/L of nitrate N. I have seen in my time that soon after we applied fertilizer if we get a good enough rain we have seen nitrate-N concentrations ranging from 18-50 mg/L. Why? nitrate is highly water-soluble. So it quickly moves with any moving water. So this point needs to be corrected in the video. The next point is, should we blame farmers for that? Definitely NOO. Even if you did not apply any fertilizer nitrate is added to the soil from rainwater. In US-midwest, through rain, about 8 kg/ha is added just from rain annually. (Check this link.nadp.slh.wisc.edu/maplib/pdf/2017/N_dep_2017.pdf). And there are microbes in soil who convert nitrogen in the air to nitrate in the soil. I have seen studies that even with no fertilizer application tile drainage nitrate concentration are between 5-8 mg/L. However, it doesn't mean that the urban environment and golf courses don't contribute. They all do. What we have done is we have accelerated a natural process in the last century. The problem is you will not have the luxury of having this much of farm produce without fertilizer. there is extensive research conducted by USDA, NRCS, and universities how to manage this nitrate problem carefully without affecting yields. So I hope this clears some of the thoughts about tile drainage. Tile drainage is essential to farm in high clay soils in US midwest. Without tile draiange, we will not have this much of yield. For more information refer to this booklet. draindrop.cropsci.illinois.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ten-Ways-to-Reduce-Nitrate-Loads_IL-Extension-_2016.pdf I was also amazed to see some of the techniques used here to prevent tile nitrate loss while maintaining good yields. Hope this helps.! Cheers.
Thanks for the update Janiya! Do you have any recommendations for more modern technology? I'd have thought they'd make systems that water and drain by now :)
@@cannaroe1213 I am not sure I can answer this. But I know that there is a lot of buzz going on precision ag management. I have known a friend who did research on drone image analysis to apply areas that need fertilizer in the field. Drone technology in ag is becoming huge now. I have seen a study that finds waterhemp in crop field using drones and evaluating herbicide and pesticide drift.
Tiling is not environmentally friendly. Yes it prevents surface runoff, but all those chemical carried above ground are transported in a pipe underground. At least when it flows above ground there is more filtration of the chemicals then when it flows through a plastic pipe. Tile drains and No till operations are the leading causes of Eutrophication in the Great Lakes Basin of North America.
+Jason Igras Actually notill allows the land to absorb more water (local guy did demonstration and absorbed six inches of simulated rain) and therefore there is less phosphate run-off. Combine this with tiling- plastic tubing with holes all along it- which carries water to other areas of the land distributing it more evenly to plant roots while not allowing phosphate run-off and you have a great system. What's affecting the waters most is nutrients are lost in warm moist conditions when no plants are available to take them up- late fall and early spring. Extreme rainfall events which have risen up to 50% since the 1970s exacerbate this. Cover crops address this problem. We are not adding more fertilizer, probably less, and nitrate/phosphate are same whether fertilized ground or not as demonstrated by Iowa State University with soybeans www.cals.iastate.edu/nutrientcenter/media/nitrogen-cycle. Other factors include how sandy the soil is- sand holds less water and nitrates percolate down easier to the groundwater.
LMAO!!! You sound like you are from Potheadland or Eugene OR!!! Both cities blamed the farmers for the chemicals found in the Willamette and Columbia Rivers. Funny, of all the testing done and all the chemicals found... 98% was from residential and commercial landscaping/lawns... Chemicals that the farmers do NOT use!!!
Unfortunately not good for the environment. Has totally polluted the Wye River in Ontario, previously a pristine habitat for wildlife. No other changes have taken place to explain this other than numerous farmers tile draining and dumping the water into the Wye. Chemicals in this drinking water for animals have resulted in a decrease in everything from beavers to foxes due to the fertilizers decreasing fertility. I'm sure you would not let your cattle drink water from tile drainage nor your wife if you wanted a family.
False, there have been many people who tested water coming directly out of the tile, including myself. In many cases, the water came back as completely drinkable. A well done tile job allows rainfall to travel down through the soil and filters it out, keeping nutrients in the field as a pose to in the water. It would make no logical sense for farmers to put it in if they were loosing nutrients, because fertilizer is not cheap, and every nutrient that stays in your field is helping you, as well as the environment.
jason, you have no idea what your talking about. What your talking about has already been proven is coming from fertilizer used in urban settings used to feed lawns, and golf courses. Farm land is not the reason for polluting the rivers or gulf
@@hkhjg1734 SO you have never been to the suburbs where average Joe applies more for an extra good looking lawn? or to a golf course that fertilizes once a week(at least) for good looking grass? We put on 100lbs per ACRE. That's it. I guarantee you that average joe and the gold course puts more on than that, then waters the crap out of it, washing it away.
J. A. G. you’re really trying to compare some homeowner applying scotts greenseed and whatever golf courses do to commercial agriculture? that’s pretty ridiculous. There are tens of thousands of papers published about nitrate runoff from farms so Its not really a matter of debate. Many farmers over apply, which i don’t blame them for.
People usually emphasize the removal of excess water in the soil because of the use of the word "drainage" but really what should be emphasized is that one is seeking to increase the amount of air in the soil to maximise root respiration like you do tuning a carburetor. Roots stop growing when the amount of air in the soil is too low above the water table. There is a lot of misunderstanding about subsurface drainage, how roots work and soil water.
You say drain “tile” but show PVC plastic. How long do you think plastic tube will last buried?
Brian addressed your comment on Ag PhD Radio recently: soundcloud.com/agphd/12-04-18-corn-soil-insecticides#t=57:40
would it be work for flood irrigation.we see problems during moonsoon which affects vegetable crops
how does the drainage tile not get clogged up? I mean with a French drain they use a sock and gravel to keep the pipe from clogging.
Thank you for the question; we appreciate it! The response to your question was broadcasted live over the Ag PhD Radio Show, which airs at 2pm Central on Sirius XM Channel 147. The response can
be listened to at this link:
soundcloud.com/agphd/01-12-17-improving-seed#t=56:45
Thanks for sharing
So the pipe do not get clogged up just putting it in the ground like that
Brian and Darren addressed your comments on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/05-07-19-alfalfa-insects#t=57:57
I'll agree that it's good for reducing sediment loads in waterways, but tiling significantly increases nutrient loading. I'm currently working on a graduate school assignment on the topic now. The Raccoon River is the example I'm working from. There is overwhelming data coming from that watershed that links the culprit of N loading to the river from farmground. I find the "it's good for the environment" angle they push here to be extremely narrow. 1+1=2 guys, great job, except the question actually involved advanced calculus.
Shae - thanks for the comments. Brian and Darren addressed them on Ag PhD Radio today. Listen to their response here soundcloud.com/agphd/03-21-18-calcium#t=52:28
1. nitrate runoff will occur on the surface level with or without tiles and it will still eventually seep into ground water.
2. tiles allow for nitrogen rich water to be directed into bio reactors, perennial plant buffers and even special water basins for water recycling.
Thanks for your comments. Brian and Darren responded to them recently on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/07-06-18-farmer-friday#t=6:43
AgPhD cool, thanks for including my comment. Definitely enjoyed the show
varry nice working tranching machine,good informetion for protect agriculter land,
*very *trenching *information *to *agriculture
Once the soil has returned to "drinking waterish" quality can the water be used again for irrigation?
Brian and Darren addressed it your question on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/06-07-19-farmer-friday#t=58:04
Is there a chance the drain tile could get caught on a plow and damaged?
Do you leave markers, or map the location? Does the Farmer rely on his memory to remember where the drain tile is? I wouldn't want to see the drain tile ripped out during next years plowing.
All tiles are gps mapped now, or should be. Plus they are deep enough no plow will ever hit them.
Are you going to have another clinic soon?
Brian and Darren answered your question on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/08-08-18-wheat-seed-treatments#t=37:17
There are reasons why one should call a licensed plumber instead of trying to figure out what is wrong with a kitchen sink drain. The same goes for do-it-your-self tile drainage. Tiiling is expensive and a small error in the installation can negate much of the system. It is very important to have equipment that controls the grade of the pipe being installed. I know a case in which an agricultural producer with no familiarity with subsurface drainage had a person install pipe with a D8 caterpillar tractor and the pipe went off grade near the outlet due to a sharp j turn in the line. Pipes tend to rise going around a curve if not properly controlled and if a laser plane is used, a turn can result in a loss of grade as well. The tile system did not work and the agricultural producer did not know why and concluded that tile doesn't work. A person with subsurface drainage experience as an agricultural producer in another area where it was common, looked into the matter on hearing about it and did some digging along the line. The line was working perfectly up to where the pipe went off grade.
When installing pipe with a drainage plow there are also things like buried rocks that can put the tile off grade (too high or too low) and even with special linkages and attitude control of the toe and heel of the shoe, the affected section of pipe near the rock needs to be inspected and corrected if necessary to make sure it is on grade.
Gabe Brown doesn't seem to have this issue on his no till farm.
Will perforated tile work in land that is a lake that has been drained with canals and is growing grass?
Hi! Thanks for your question! Brian and Darren addressed it on Ag PhD Radio today. You can listen to their response here soundcloud.com/agphd/04-25-17-sudden-death-syndrome-in-soybeans#t=57:41.
Has anyone heard of or used keyline plows. From what I have seen and heard it appears it might eliminate the need for drain tiles.
Hi, Dave! Brian and Darren addressed your comment on Ag PhD Radio today. You can listen to their response here soundcloud.com/agphd/03-26-18-irrigation-planning-and-strategies#t=36:09.
What is the common distance between two rows of drain tiles?
Marius, For a start the pipe being used in this demonstration is a perforated corrugated plastic pipe and should not be referred to as a "tile", which is a completely different system. There is generally no common distance between rows of pipes, as each row of pipe will be constructed to suit the contours of the ground and for maximum efficiency. Where there is a drainage problem over a larger area it is generally not recommended to lay rows of piping more than 30 meters apart but no two fields will be the same.
Where does all the water go?
Brian responded to your question on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/08-03-18-farmer-friday#t=53:40
Typically into a drainage ditch. Or other water source.
downhill
Agricultural lands tiling may and may not be environmental friendly, it depends on how it is practiced and what are other practices such as fertilization on the lands. Just for example, Algal bloom in the Lake Erie has been linked to tiling mainly. Research are ongoing to determine the role of residential lawn fertilization on algal bloom. Please check your facts well before advertising.
Boys, you all have some interesting misinformed watchers!!!
Also, in some areas, you have to go through a bunch of government BS before you can tile....
Brian and Darren addressed your comments on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/05-13-19-in-crop-fertilizer-applications-foliar-and-soil#t=49:00
Tiling is not a term used in the UK.
What is it called in the UK?
At the very least, do your damndest to make sure you are using best construction practices. Even trained and licensed contractors can get into bad habits. ALWAYS install the system from the outlet upwards and construct laterals from the main upwards and never in the reverse direction. Also, there is a best method for cutting and making connections of a lateral to a main. Don't use quick methods such as slitting the back of a tee and placing it over a hole in the main. Possibly get together with a university ag extension person and create a learning group like a barn building bee to get some local experience in the field. There are graded licensing and instruction systems that could be used. An interested person could get some experience in the summer or fall.
Yes and water runs down hill and the code is ¼” inch drop per one foot lateral. Or 6.25” inches in a 100 yards.
I have been in drainage/tile research for nearly 3 years now. First of all this video was published in 2009. Over the last 10 years, drainage research and designs have improved. I need to correct something said in the video first. Tile drainage water is clean because there is no sediment, but its not drinking water quality. The drinking water standard is 10 mg/L of nitrate N. I have seen in my time that soon after we applied fertilizer if we get a good enough rain we have seen nitrate-N concentrations ranging from 18-50 mg/L. Why? nitrate is highly water-soluble. So it quickly moves with any moving water. So this point needs to be corrected in the video.
The next point is, should we blame farmers for that? Definitely NOO. Even if you did not apply any fertilizer nitrate is added to the soil from rainwater. In US-midwest, through rain, about 8 kg/ha is added just from rain annually. (Check this link.nadp.slh.wisc.edu/maplib/pdf/2017/N_dep_2017.pdf). And there are microbes in soil who convert nitrogen in the air to nitrate in the soil. I have seen studies that even with no fertilizer application tile drainage nitrate concentration are between 5-8 mg/L.
However, it doesn't mean that the urban environment and golf courses don't contribute. They all do. What we have done is we have accelerated a natural process in the last century. The problem is you will not have the luxury of having this much of farm produce without fertilizer. there is extensive research conducted by USDA, NRCS, and universities how to manage this nitrate problem carefully without affecting yields. So I hope this clears some of the thoughts about tile drainage.
Tile drainage is essential to farm in high clay soils in US midwest. Without tile draiange, we will not have this much of yield.
For more information refer to this booklet.
draindrop.cropsci.illinois.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ten-Ways-to-Reduce-Nitrate-Loads_IL-Extension-_2016.pdf
I was also amazed to see some of the techniques used here to prevent tile nitrate loss while maintaining good yields.
Hope this helps.! Cheers.
Thanks for the update Janiya! Do you have any recommendations for more modern technology? I'd have thought they'd make systems that water and drain by now :)
@@cannaroe1213 I am not sure I can answer this. But I know that there is a lot of buzz going on precision ag management. I have known a friend who did research on drone image analysis to apply areas that need fertilizer in the field. Drone technology in ag is becoming huge now. I have seen a study that finds waterhemp in crop field using drones and evaluating herbicide and pesticide drift.
Settle an argument; do the holes go on the top or the bottom, or both or the side?
@Hidan7000 I asked because I intend to. But if you like to keep it to yourself that's ok.
Good machines
It's farm drain flow not tiling.....
"retirement job" is the sad oxymoron of the new age.
Tiling is not environmentally friendly. Yes it prevents surface runoff, but all those chemical carried above ground are transported in a pipe underground. At least when it flows above ground there is more filtration of the chemicals then when it flows through a plastic pipe. Tile drains and No till operations are the leading causes of Eutrophication in the Great Lakes Basin of North America.
How much are you (and the consuming public) willing to pay for the food that you eat?
+Jason Igras Actually notill allows the land to absorb more water (local guy did demonstration and absorbed six inches of simulated rain) and therefore there is less phosphate run-off. Combine this with tiling- plastic tubing with holes all along it- which carries water to other areas of the land distributing it more evenly to plant roots while not allowing phosphate run-off and you have a great system. What's affecting the waters most is nutrients are lost in warm moist conditions when no plants are available to take them up- late fall and early spring. Extreme rainfall events which have risen up to 50% since the 1970s exacerbate this. Cover crops address this problem. We are not adding more fertilizer, probably less, and nitrate/phosphate are same whether fertilized ground or not as demonstrated by Iowa State University with soybeans www.cals.iastate.edu/nutrientcenter/media/nitrogen-cycle. Other factors include how sandy the soil is- sand holds less water and nitrates percolate down easier to the groundwater.
You really have no clue what you are talking about.
LMAO!!! You sound like you are from Potheadland or Eugene OR!!!
Both cities blamed the farmers for the chemicals found in the Willamette and Columbia Rivers.
Funny, of all the testing done and all the chemicals found... 98% was from residential and commercial landscaping/lawns... Chemicals that the farmers do NOT use!!!
Unfortunately not good for the environment. Has totally polluted the Wye River in Ontario, previously a pristine habitat for wildlife. No other changes have taken place to explain this other than numerous farmers tile draining and dumping the water into the Wye. Chemicals in this drinking water for animals have resulted in a decrease in everything from beavers to foxes due to the fertilizers decreasing fertility. I'm sure you would not let your cattle drink water from tile drainage nor your wife if you wanted a family.
False, there have been many people who tested water coming directly out of the tile, including myself. In many cases, the water came back as completely drinkable. A well done tile job allows rainfall to travel down through the soil and filters it out, keeping nutrients in the field as a pose to in the water. It would make no logical sense for farmers to put it in if they were loosing nutrients, because fertilizer is not cheap, and every nutrient that stays in your field is helping you, as well as the environment.
jason, you have no idea what your talking about. What your talking about has already been proven is coming from fertilizer used in urban settings used to feed lawns, and golf courses. Farm land is not the reason for polluting the rivers or gulf
RJ 1999 this is false. nitrate drains off farmland
@@hkhjg1734 and it doesn't in cities or anywhere else?
J. A. G. no it doesn’t, because cities aren’t applying fertilizer anywhere near the rates of farmland
@@hkhjg1734 SO you have never been to the suburbs where average Joe applies more for an extra good looking lawn? or to a golf course that fertilizes once a week(at least) for good looking grass? We put on 100lbs per ACRE. That's it. I guarantee you that average joe and the gold course puts more on than that, then waters the crap out of it, washing it away.
J. A. G. you’re really trying to compare some homeowner applying scotts greenseed and whatever golf courses do to commercial agriculture? that’s pretty ridiculous. There are tens of thousands of papers published about nitrate runoff from farms so Its not really a matter of debate. Many farmers over apply, which i don’t blame them for.
brookings register: Volga man ordered to restore protected wetlands
Brian and Darren responded to your comment on Ag PhD Radio recently: soundcloud.com/agphd/05-01-18-soybean-inoculants#t=54:11
True capitalism at work